doxielover84

Hi. My name is Nancy. I am new to the homeschooling & unschooling
area. I am a SAHM to an 21 mth old named Graham and have been
married to my dh for 3 years. I am very interested in unschooling
our son. Are there any websites or books that you can recommend?
Thanks . Glad to join . Nancy

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/28/2004 9:26:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, doxielover84@... writes:
Are there any websites or books that you can recommend? <<<
 
 
www.unschooling.com  essays and message boards
 
www.sandradodd.com   essays and articles. Lots written by some of us here.
 
anything by John Holt---and best in order.
 
John Taylor Gatto's The Underground History of American Education    and    Dumbing Us Down
 
Frank Smith's The Book of Learning and Forgetting
 
Valerie Fitzenreiter's The Unprocessed Child
 
Grace Llewellyn's The Teenage Liberation Handbook
 
All VERY good starts!

~Kelly

Jonell Alvi

Hello!

My name is Jonell and I live in the mtns of southern california with
dh of 7yrs. I have two little guys: Ben who is 4 and Nick who will
be 1 next month. I found this group from the alwayslearning group.

I've come to believe that unschooling is the best thing for my kids,
and the more I read about it the more and more of an advocate I
become. My family think I'm nuts. My friends think I've gone off
the deep end. Even my dh sometimes needs a good talking to about
what I want (or rather, don't want) for my kids in regard to school.


Obviously, my kids are not even old enough yet to go to school, even
if I wanted them to. I've just finished reading a ton of intros from
you guys, and I'm so glad to have this list as a resourse as my kids
get older.

I live in a small mountain community where there are quite a few
homeschoolers. Most of the hs'ers I've met so far (we moved here
last Oct.) are doing so for religious reasons. Our town, pop. about
2500, has a school that is the "best" in our county. When I voice my
intentions to unschool, I often get the comment, "But the school here
isn't so bad...actually it's really great." Which it is, if you are
willing to accept school as a logical choice for your kids. What
bugs me most is that most of my friends haven't even really thought
about it. They just assume, oh I went to school, so my kids will to,
as if there really is no choice. But most of my friends HATED
school, even if they did well there. Maybe they think there kids
should have to go through it and hate it just like they did? I just
don't want to put Ben and Nick through all that baloney.

My husband and I cannot find enough hours in the day to do all the
projects and pursue all of our interests. We are always reading,
playing, singing....learning. I feel that school robbed me of the
ability to know what I want and I am just now reclaiming that
ability. I'm 34. I will not send my children to an institution that
does not seem to have the best interests of children at heart. The
best place they can be is here in the real world, with mom and dad.

Okay maybe I'm preaching to the choir but I wanted to get that off my
chest.

Jonell






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Jonell Alvi

--- doxielover84 <doxielover84@...> wrote:
> Hi. My name is Nancy. I am new to the homeschooling & unschooling
> area. I am a SAHM to an 21 mth old named Graham and have been
> married to my dh for 3 years. I am very interested in unschooling
> our son. Are there any websites or books that you can recommend?
> Thanks . Glad to join . Nancy
>
>

Hi Nancy,

I'm new to unschooling too, and my kids are Ben (4) and Nick (1). I
have to tell you about the book, Deschooling our Lives, edited by
Matt Hern. This book had a profound impact on me. It is a
collection of essays about the history of school, the difference
between learning and education, and some alternative schools that
follow the 'democratic' model (like sudbury valley, summerhill, and
albany). There are essays by Leo Tolstoy, Ivan Illich, John Holt,
Grace Lewellyn, John Taylor Gatto and others.

The section of the book about the history of schools and why they
evolved in the first place probably had the most impact in "gelling"
my decision to unschool. It will also give you amunition to back up
your decision when people question you about your unschooling.

Anyway, it was a big help to me and I often refer back to it when I
feel myself wondering if I am doing the right thing.

Jonell






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[email protected]

HI Jonel,
 I wonder if you'd mind giving me a brief history of schools.  I'm very interested in the subject.  If you feel like it, if not i'll start my search on the web!
thanks!
syndi
 
We worry about what a child will be tomorrow, yet we forget that he
is someone today.
Stacia Tauscher

Tina

<<I feel that school robbed me of the ability to know what I want and
I am just now reclaiming that ability. I'm 34. >>

It's "funny" that you would say that. I am 33 and have been feeling
exactly the same way. On that note I'd like to ask a question for
discussion...

My two oldest just finished their last day of high school on
Thursday. They were public schooled all the way from beginning to so
called end. Tabitha knows what she wants to do and has a plan. Amy,
on the other hand, has no clue. What advice would you give a child
in that situation?

I am currently reading "The Teenage Liberation Handbook." Do you
think it would benefit her to read something like that having gone
all the way through the system? Oh how I wish she had found this
book years ago on her own!

I raised her the same way that I was raised. You go to school,
graduate and then go to college. She has three years of Michigan
college paid for through MET, so it was the "natural" thing to do.
It didn't work for me. Don't ask me why I thought it would work for
my kids! I just didn't know any different, and only arrived where
I'm at within the past year or so.

My instinct is to tell her not to go to college right now. Take some
time, find yourself, that sort of thing. I'd like to encourage her
to do some reading, but I don't really know what to tell her to
read. Are there books out there that address this issue?

Thanks - Tina

Tina

> I'm new to unschooling too, and my kids are Ben (4) and Nick (1). I
> have to tell you about the book, Deschooling our Lives, edited by
> Matt Hern. This book had a profound impact on me. It is a
> collection of essays about the history of school, the difference
> between learning and education, and some alternative schools that
> follow the 'democratic' model (like sudbury valley, summerhill, and
> albany). There are essays by Leo Tolstoy, Ivan Illich, John Holt,
> Grace Lewellyn, John Taylor Gatto and others.
>
> The section of the book about the history of schools and why they
> evolved in the first place probably had the most impact in "gelling"
> my decision to unschool. It will also give you amunition to back up
> your decision when people question you about your unschooling.
>
> Anyway, it was a big help to me and I often refer back to it when I
> feel myself wondering if I am doing the right thing.
>
> Jonell


I'm SO GLAD you shared that. I have that book in my pile right now
from the library. As soon as I finish the one I'm reading, I will be
moving on to that one for sure.

Thanks - Tina

kay alina

 My instinct is to tell her not to go to college right now.  Take some
time, find yourself, that sort of thing.  I'd like to encourage her
to do some reading, but I don't really know what to tell her to
read.  Are there books out there that address this issue?
 
Marianne Williamson's book A Woman's Worth comes to mind.  Also, how about adult education classes.  They are usually short term and may be able to help her find her passion.  I am a big believer in doing what you love.  I chose to go through the Operating Engineers apprenticeship program and earned while I learned.  I also ended up with 60 college credits and never set foot in a college classroom for that.  Best of luck.
Kay

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Alyce

--- In [email protected], "Tina" <zoocrew@w...>
wrote:

> My two oldest just finished their last day of high school on
> Thursday. They were public schooled all the way from beginning to
so
> called end. Tabitha knows what she wants to do and has a plan.
Amy,
> on the other hand, has no clue. What advice would you give a
child
> in that situation?

Hi Tina,

My oldest is 20 and graduated from public school as per the usual at
18. She's been sitting around for 2 years without a clue. And I've
let her because, frankly, I know exactly what she's going through.
I'm still getting through it myself! And I'm 38... it's only been
in the last year or so that I started having the gumption to pursue
my interests... and I'm still crawling out. I've been allowing this
grown child to "unschool" along with my younger ones because she
needed it. It's interesting as well. Her latest? She bought some
zoology and biology coloring books at B&N. She has now expressed an
interest in signing up for biology this fall at college. I don't
know where she'll end up or what she'll ultimately do, but for the
first time since she was 5, she actually seems to be interested in
something. I wish I had found out about all this years ago. I will
say that year after year while in school, she'd have a spark of
interest, take a class, and then all the joy would be sucked out of
it for her... it's been a sad journey for her. She was quite an
artist - but year after year one teacher or another would crush her
because she didn't do the art the right way. How do you not do art
the right way???? They didn't like her colors or her textures...
bunch of crap. In the end she stopped it all together.

~Alyce

Jonell Alvi

--- Tina <zoocrew@...> wrote:

> Amy,
> on the other hand, has no clue. What advice would you give a child
>
> in that situation?
>

Hi Tina,

I remember feeling this way when I graduated from University! I went
because it was expected (and paid for) by my parents. I had no idea
what I wanted and changed majors at least 4 times. I initially
wanted to do film, but my father laughed at me and told me I'd never
make money doing that--it just wasn't practical (he's a doctor). So
I ended up with a degree in philosophy and geography (double major),
which led me into computer mapping and technical writing...but that's
another story.

What I wish had happened was this: I wish I would have had the self
confidence to take some time to find myself, just like you say you
think Amy should do. Take a year or two and travel, work, explore the
world. Will the money for college still be there for her if she does
this?

Jonell








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Jonell Alvi

--- Onesnotenough@... wrote:
> HI Jonel,
> I wonder if you'd mind giving me a brief history of schools. I'm
> very
> interested in the subject. If you feel like it, if not i'll start
> my search on the
> web!
> thanks!
> syndi
>


Okay Syndi. History of school.

I'm not an expert. But here is what I've discovered.

According to John Gatto, modern day schools are structured on
Prussian schools that began in the early 1800s. The soldiers of
Prussia were defeated by Napolean in 1806. A german philosopeher
named Fichte addressed the German people and basically told them that
they would have to shape up. His method was to use forced schooling
to teach everyone to take orders.

I'm paraphrasing this from "Deschooling our Lives." It is from a talk
that John Taylor Gatto gave in 1991 called "The Public School
Nightmare: Why fix a system designed to destroy individual thought?"

He says:

"So the world got compulsion schooling at the end of a state bayonet
for the first time in human history; modern forced schooling started
in Prussia in 1819 with a clear vision of what centralized schools
could deliver:

1) obedient soldiers to the army;
2) obedient workers to the mines;
3) well subordinated civil servants to government;
4) well subordinated clerks to industry;
5) citizens who thought alike about major issues."

The King of Prussia came to the U.S. in 1845 to determine the
boundary between the U.S. and Canada. This is when the U.S. adopted
the Prussian style of schooling. The Prussian purpose of schools was
to create a form a state socialism, and came to replace the American
purpose of schools which was to create independent thinkers.

When I read this stuff it blew my socks of. I mean, it really
changed my whole view of schooling. You should read this article.
Here is some more:

"There were many more techniques of training, but all were built
around the premise that isolation from first-had information, and
fragmentation of the abstract information presented by teachers,
would result in obedient and subordinate graduates, properly
respectful of arbitrary orders. "Lesser" men would be unable to
interfere with policy makers because, while they could still
complain, they could not manage sustained or comprehensive thought."

"It's important to note that the underlying premise of Prussian
schooling is hat the government is the true parent of children--the
state is sovereign over the family."

"When Friedrich Froebel, the inventor of kindergarten in 19th century
Germany, fashioned his idea, he did not have a "garden for children"
in mind, but a metaphor of teachers as gardeners and children as the
vegetables. Kindergarten was created to be a way to break the
influence of mothers on their children....The movement toward state
socilaism is not some historical curiosity but a powerful dynamic
force in the world around us. It is fighting for its life against
those forces which would...deprive it of financial lifeblood, and it
has countered this thrust with a demand for even more control over
children's lives, and even more money to pay for the extended school
day and year that this control requires."

I guess what I take out of reading this is that school really wasn't
created with the best interests of children in mind, and I don't
think this is the goal of schools today. It just isn't to the
advantage to those in power to have a population that can think for
itself.

So many of my friends have kids that are aged 4-5 and are raving
about how excited they are to get their time back when the kids start
school. It seems that school has become tax-funded daycare so that
moms and dads can work.

On a more personal level, since being a stay at home mom, I've
thought about starting my own business. After 17 years of school, I
have no idea of how to do about this. But people are constantly
coming to America who can barely speak English and starting up shops
and restaurants and becoming successful. I wonder what they think of
American schools?

School didn't teach me how to make a living. It taught me how to go
to someone else to give me a job. The assumption seems to be that
you go out and find a job, you get hired by someone. You don't go
out and make a job for yourself. I blame the schools for making
children into employees.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. I have to go now....I'd love to
chat more about this though. Does anyone else have input on the role
of the history of schools in their decision to unschool?

-Jonell






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Tina

Thanks for all the wonderful advice and input on this topic. The
girls' graduation is Tuesay. Amy has not received her "New Student
Packet" in the mail yet, so she has to call MET next week to see
why. I'm going to have her ask them to send the particulars on how
it works and what happens to the money should she choose not to use
it.

I think that it's important for me to find the time to talk with her
to discuss how she's feeling and what she's thinking. I know she's a
little "afraid" for a lack of better word. She has stated that she
doesn't want to grow up. I told her that I don't either. :) It's
definately time for a mom and daughter day out...

Thanks - Tina

Debbie

I will
> say that year after year while in school, she'd have a spark of
> interest, take a class, and then all the joy would be sucked out
of
> it for her... it's been a sad journey for her. She was quite an
> artist - but year after year one teacher or another would crush
her
> because she didn't do the art the right way. How do you not do
art
> the right way???? They didn't like her colors or her textures...
> bunch of crap. In the end she stopped it all together.

Alyce,
((((hugs to your daughter))))) One of my biggest pet peeves right
here. Art is in the eye of the beholder and for them to take away
her passion like that just drives me insane. I hope she is getting
her passion back for art. Another one that would drive me bonkers
was gym class. to me everyone should come out with an A in that
class. some kids are just not athletically inclined and if they do
thier very best and at least try the activitiy (does not matter if
they can not get to teh top of the rope climb) but if they try thier
best that should be an A. I had a gym teacher tell me differently
once at conferences. That was the same year I pulled Chuck out of
school lol
Debbie

Alyce

--- In [email protected], "Debbie"
<DebluvzMACnJ@c...> wrote:

> Alyce,
> ((((hugs to your daughter))))) One of my biggest pet peeves
right
> here. Art is in the eye of the beholder and for them to take away
> her passion like that just drives me insane. Another one that
would drive me bonkers
> was gym class. to me everyone should come out with an A in that
> class. some kids are just not athletically inclined and if they do
> thier very best and at least try the activitiy (does not matter if
> they can not get to teh top of the rope climb) but if they try
thier
> best that should be an A. I had a gym teacher tell me differently
> once at conferences. That was the same year I pulled Chuck out of
> school lol
> Debbie

Oh yeah, GYM class. I agree. I remember grades for running were
based on speed... run the mile between x minutes and y minutes you
get an A, between y minutes and z minutes, a B. And so on. Very
little makes sense to me about this. And the art. I remember one
project in particular where my daughter had painted a picture in
such a way to give it a 3D metallic appearance... very impressive.
She got an F because the teacher said that what she had painted was
unrealistic. No metallic. The same teacher even erased some of her
work in progress during the course of the year and made her do it
over differently. My daughter is still hung up about the art I'm
afraid. She got lots of positive recognition in grade school - even
had some work sent overseas as representative of US grade school art
skill or some such stuff. But middle then high school it turned
ugly.

Thanks for your kind words... :) I do hope she finds it again if
that's what she wants.

Alyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/29/2004 12:55:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Groups@... writes:
She was quite an
artist - but year after year one teacher or another would crush her
because she didn't do the art the right way.  How do you not do art
the right way????  They didn't like her colors or her textures...
bunch of crap.  In the end she stopped it all together.<<<<
 
That brings tears to my eyes. I'm sorry for her!
 
~Kelly