Re: [unschoolingbasics] Reading
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/22/2004 3:53:36 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I have been coming across the idea that children
should be exposed to the printed word as much as possible (Holt), and
the best way to foster reading is to READ TO THEM (Unschooling
Handbook). So this is the 'unschooling route' I decided to take as
we begin the journey, by going to the library, modeling a love of
books and taking time during the day to read together.
Oh, I whole-heartedly agree with you on this. I think the reason Emma (5) is
learning how to read on her own is because she's developed a natural love of
books...by being read to whenever she wants (and that's a lot)! :) We are
regulars at our local library, with Em bringing home about 20-30 books each week!
She's extremely excited about being able to finally get her OWN library card
this year! ~~ Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
I have been coming across the idea that children
should be exposed to the printed word as much as possible (Holt), and
the best way to foster reading is to READ TO THEM (Unschooling
Handbook). So this is the 'unschooling route' I decided to take as
we begin the journey, by going to the library, modeling a love of
books and taking time during the day to read together.
Oh, I whole-heartedly agree with you on this. I think the reason Emma (5) is
learning how to read on her own is because she's developed a natural love of
books...by being read to whenever she wants (and that's a lot)! :) We are
regulars at our local library, with Em bringing home about 20-30 books each week!
She's extremely excited about being able to finally get her OWN library card
this year! ~~ Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Ok im jumpin in and asking questions... We have been homeschooling since dec
of last yr. Put that handy unschooling label on us just about a mnth ago.
When we came home from school my daughter who was in 1st grade so hated school
that she vomited 21 days out of the 30 we kept track of. So since they came
home even the mention of school would send her in a panic. Anyhow just recently
like Mon she stated she thought she was ready to go back to school lol I
told her she never had to go back that this hasnt been about school. She said
yes mom but I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to learn to read. So there is my
question whats the best "unschooling" way to help her learn to read? She will be
8 in sept sounds some things out but struggles... she has complete motor
apraxia and memory things and sometimes sounding out is hard!!!! Thanks for all
the imput!
Chrissy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of last yr. Put that handy unschooling label on us just about a mnth ago.
When we came home from school my daughter who was in 1st grade so hated school
that she vomited 21 days out of the 30 we kept track of. So since they came
home even the mention of school would send her in a panic. Anyhow just recently
like Mon she stated she thought she was ready to go back to school lol I
told her she never had to go back that this hasnt been about school. She said
yes mom but I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to learn to read. So there is my
question whats the best "unschooling" way to help her learn to read? She will be
8 in sept sounds some things out but struggles... she has complete motor
apraxia and memory things and sometimes sounding out is hard!!!! Thanks for all
the imput!
Chrissy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/24/2005 6:15:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Homeschlfor2@... writes:
So there is my
question whats the best "unschooling" way to help her learn to read?
************
Have you asked her what that means to her? She may have a completely
different idea than you of how to go about that.
Stay casual about it!
Sometimes an offer to buy one of those cheapo walmart books and sit with her
for a couple of "lessons" addresses her immediate need. Chances are they
will bore the stew out of her and she'll move on to more exciting things. Or
buy a new CD-Rom.
Many people have recommended the book Games for Reading.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Homeschlfor2@... writes:
So there is my
question whats the best "unschooling" way to help her learn to read?
************
Have you asked her what that means to her? She may have a completely
different idea than you of how to go about that.
Stay casual about it!
Sometimes an offer to buy one of those cheapo walmart books and sit with her
for a couple of "lessons" addresses her immediate need. Chances are they
will bore the stew out of her and she'll move on to more exciting things. Or
buy a new CD-Rom.
Many people have recommended the book Games for Reading.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
coolcrew
Well don' t start a reading programme. Just look at books she wants to look at with her and take it from there. See if there are any computer games involving reading she likes e.t.c or get her books from the library about things she is interested in. Don' t worry about her sounding out either - lots of children never do. I didn't but I can read lol. My children never either but so can they. Phonics are very overrated.
Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
My daughter, Sierra, is 6, almost 7 and has also been asking to go to school
like all her friends. When I pointed out that most of her friends werent
in school, she named the few who were. Turns out she wanted to ride the bus
and to learn to read. Her brother who is 9 ½ has pretty much picked up
reading on his own and has never been interested in attending school.
Sierra got to ride the bus to a YMCA day camp this summer, so I think that
is out of her system for now. Some of my friends recommended Reading
Reflex: the foolproof phono-graphix method for teaching your child to read
by Carmen McGuinness and Geoffrey McGuinness. I got it from the library and
photocopied some pages & we did a few of the lessons. We maybe sat down 3-4
times to do school. She LOVED it. She made a list of all the words she
learned & showed everyone. And has not asked about it since.
Heather
In Tucson AZ
<<Ok im jumpin in and asking questions... We have been homeschooling since
dec
of last yr. Put that handy unschooling label on us just about a mnth ago.
When we came home from school my daughter who was in 1st grade so hated
school
that she vomited 21 days out of the 30 we kept track of. So since they came
home even the mention of school would send her in a panic. Anyhow just
recently
like Mon she stated she thought she was ready to go back to school lol I
told her she never had to go back that this hasnt been about school. She
said
yes mom but I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to learn to read. So there is my
question whats the best "unschooling" way to help her learn to read? She
will be
8 in sept sounds some things out but struggles... she has complete motor
apraxia and memory things and sometimes sounding out is hard!!!! Thanks for
all
the imput!>>
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
like all her friends. When I pointed out that most of her friends werent
in school, she named the few who were. Turns out she wanted to ride the bus
and to learn to read. Her brother who is 9 ½ has pretty much picked up
reading on his own and has never been interested in attending school.
Sierra got to ride the bus to a YMCA day camp this summer, so I think that
is out of her system for now. Some of my friends recommended Reading
Reflex: the foolproof phono-graphix method for teaching your child to read
by Carmen McGuinness and Geoffrey McGuinness. I got it from the library and
photocopied some pages & we did a few of the lessons. We maybe sat down 3-4
times to do school. She LOVED it. She made a list of all the words she
learned & showed everyone. And has not asked about it since.
Heather
In Tucson AZ
<<Ok im jumpin in and asking questions... We have been homeschooling since
dec
of last yr. Put that handy unschooling label on us just about a mnth ago.
When we came home from school my daughter who was in 1st grade so hated
school
that she vomited 21 days out of the 30 we kept track of. So since they came
home even the mention of school would send her in a panic. Anyhow just
recently
like Mon she stated she thought she was ready to go back to school lol I
told her she never had to go back that this hasnt been about school. She
said
yes mom but I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to learn to read. So there is my
question whats the best "unschooling" way to help her learn to read? She
will be
8 in sept sounds some things out but struggles... she has complete motor
apraxia and memory things and sometimes sounding out is hard!!!! Thanks for
all
the imput!>>
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jlh44music
--- In [email protected], "coolcrew" <grayfamily9@g...>
wrote:
computer games involving reading she likes e.t.c or get her books from
the library about things she is interested in. Don' t worry about her
sounding out either - lots of children never do. I didn't but I can
read lol. My children never either but so can they. Phonics are very
overrated.>>
I agree that phonics are very overrated. Learning words phonetically
isn't the only way to recognize words. Phonics doesn't work AT ALL for
my visual/spatial thinker. She has to SEE the word (feel it, touch
it, write it in sand etc etc), then stores it as a picture in her
mind. Once it's there, it's PERMANENT. She often asks me how to spell
a word and I've always told her. I never said "go look it up" or "try
to figure it out" because that would only frustrate her. She has a
wonderful vocabulary because I've always conversed with her about
things in a way that is natural for me. I read to her a lot (and she
hates reading for pleasure, but still enjoys if I read to her
sometimes, she'll be 13 next month). I know she CAN read, she just
doesn't enjoy it for pleasure like I do (I know, I've said this
before!).
Make sure she has lots of books, read to her, with her, have her read
to you, you don't need to "go to school" to learn to read, if she wants
to read, she will.
Jann
wrote:
> Well don' t start a reading programme. Just look at books she wantsto look at with her and take it from there. See if there are any
computer games involving reading she likes e.t.c or get her books from
the library about things she is interested in. Don' t worry about her
sounding out either - lots of children never do. I didn't but I can
read lol. My children never either but so can they. Phonics are very
overrated.>>
I agree that phonics are very overrated. Learning words phonetically
isn't the only way to recognize words. Phonics doesn't work AT ALL for
my visual/spatial thinker. She has to SEE the word (feel it, touch
it, write it in sand etc etc), then stores it as a picture in her
mind. Once it's there, it's PERMANENT. She often asks me how to spell
a word and I've always told her. I never said "go look it up" or "try
to figure it out" because that would only frustrate her. She has a
wonderful vocabulary because I've always conversed with her about
things in a way that is natural for me. I read to her a lot (and she
hates reading for pleasure, but still enjoys if I read to her
sometimes, she'll be 13 next month). I know she CAN read, she just
doesn't enjoy it for pleasure like I do (I know, I've said this
before!).
Make sure she has lots of books, read to her, with her, have her read
to you, you don't need to "go to school" to learn to read, if she wants
to read, she will.
Jann
Christine Hall
I just had to chime in on reading. I'm still a
"newbie" with unschooling, so this is my experience
before we found unschooling. I love reading and I
couldn't wait to pass that love on to my children.
There was some annoying parents that tried to push
their kids to read at age 3 and I said to myself that
I didn't care how old they were when they learned to
read, as long as they loved to read. Then school
happened! When my oldest wasn't picking up on how to
read by 1st grade, I panicked. She was tested, and
tested, and tested and found out that she was
dyslexic. She got so much help and still was
"behind". And now she hated reading, and didn't see
herself as a reader. :( The best "help" I have given
her was to back off. No more phonics, sounding out,
corrections and testing!!! And guess what...she now
loves reading again! That's what I most wanted and
just lost sight of. And I realized that not everyone
is going to love reading like I do and that's OK! My
dh doesn't read for enjoyment. But he's an extremely
intelligent man <proud wife ;) > and reads for
information all the time. He reads high tech,
complicated, scientific stuff, so he's probably more
of a "reader" than I am, it's just a different kind
of reading. And I've noticed my son isn't into
stories but loves looking at his reptile or Bioncle
books, so I'm not going to be disappointed if he's
just like his dad ;)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
"newbie" with unschooling, so this is my experience
before we found unschooling. I love reading and I
couldn't wait to pass that love on to my children.
There was some annoying parents that tried to push
their kids to read at age 3 and I said to myself that
I didn't care how old they were when they learned to
read, as long as they loved to read. Then school
happened! When my oldest wasn't picking up on how to
read by 1st grade, I panicked. She was tested, and
tested, and tested and found out that she was
dyslexic. She got so much help and still was
"behind". And now she hated reading, and didn't see
herself as a reader. :( The best "help" I have given
her was to back off. No more phonics, sounding out,
corrections and testing!!! And guess what...she now
loves reading again! That's what I most wanted and
just lost sight of. And I realized that not everyone
is going to love reading like I do and that's OK! My
dh doesn't read for enjoyment. But he's an extremely
intelligent man <proud wife ;) > and reads for
information all the time. He reads high tech,
complicated, scientific stuff, so he's probably more
of a "reader" than I am, it's just a different kind
of reading. And I've noticed my son isn't into
stories but loves looking at his reptile or Bioncle
books, so I'm not going to be disappointed if he's
just like his dad ;)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Ren Allen
"The descriptions had some big, complex words
that she learned to read, spell, and understand from PS2."
Trevor and Jared learned most of their spelling/reading and language
skills from playing Dungeons and Dragons, Yu-gi-oh, Pokemon and loads
and loads of N64, PS2, Xbox and gamecube play. Yes, they've got almost
every game system imaginable, and they've learned a ton from all of it!
I remember how much Trevor hated anything word related for a while
(thanks to your truly being pushy) and after we went to unschooling,
he pretty much avoided writing of any kind.
After a few years, and several new interests later, he started using
writing only for real purposes (gee, ya think?) rather than for
pleasure. One day though, he brought me this one page, handwritten
sheet, describing a scenario that was amazingly well written, well
thought out and spelled perfectly!
I thought he'd copied it from a D&D book.
Nope.
He'd made it up to enhance one of his characters...it was a history of
the character, where he was from and explanations of his past, written
in a story format.
Very cool. I really didn't get to see much of the evolvement of his
spelling and writing skills. It just seemed to happen overnight.
He types about 35-30 wpm, without ever having a single typing lesson.
His fingers are never in the position I learned in school, but it
works just fine.
He games with players all over the world on World of Warcraft and
Halo2 (xbox live) and Kalonline. They write back and forth, form
guilds, duel each other and constantly, constantly learn.
Ren
that she learned to read, spell, and understand from PS2."
Trevor and Jared learned most of their spelling/reading and language
skills from playing Dungeons and Dragons, Yu-gi-oh, Pokemon and loads
and loads of N64, PS2, Xbox and gamecube play. Yes, they've got almost
every game system imaginable, and they've learned a ton from all of it!
I remember how much Trevor hated anything word related for a while
(thanks to your truly being pushy) and after we went to unschooling,
he pretty much avoided writing of any kind.
After a few years, and several new interests later, he started using
writing only for real purposes (gee, ya think?) rather than for
pleasure. One day though, he brought me this one page, handwritten
sheet, describing a scenario that was amazingly well written, well
thought out and spelled perfectly!
I thought he'd copied it from a D&D book.
Nope.
He'd made it up to enhance one of his characters...it was a history of
the character, where he was from and explanations of his past, written
in a story format.
Very cool. I really didn't get to see much of the evolvement of his
spelling and writing skills. It just seemed to happen overnight.
He types about 35-30 wpm, without ever having a single typing lesson.
His fingers are never in the position I learned in school, but it
works just fine.
He games with players all over the world on World of Warcraft and
Halo2 (xbox live) and Kalonline. They write back and forth, form
guilds, duel each other and constantly, constantly learn.
Ren
nrskay
Thank you Ren - you're absolutely right. I can't put my expectations
on Elizabeth. If and when she picks up a book it will be her decision
and I need to stop worrying about it.
I need to focus on what she is learning and how I can facilitate her
interests. Just now she got an avtar for the game "typing terror" on
neopets. I'm so excited for her. I don't even have that avtar
yet.... she types better than I do.
You know Pam we've been talking about going to the library and picking
up a book on tape - need to stop talking about it and do it.
Thanks guys for always pulling me back into what is best for my dd.
Love the insight from all who contribute here.
Kay
on Elizabeth. If and when she picks up a book it will be her decision
and I need to stop worrying about it.
I need to focus on what she is learning and how I can facilitate her
interests. Just now she got an avtar for the game "typing terror" on
neopets. I'm so excited for her. I don't even have that avtar
yet.... she types better than I do.
You know Pam we've been talking about going to the library and picking
up a book on tape - need to stop talking about it and do it.
Thanks guys for always pulling me back into what is best for my dd.
Love the insight from all who contribute here.
Kay
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/2007 9:05:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
interest in reading for as long as I can remember. Seems he was just "born that
way" LOL. We have always read as a family, still do. I don't think you ever
"outgrow" the joy of being read to. So we have always had lots of books
around and have always been a reading family. My oldest however has loved those
gaming magazines since he was like 3. I remember him following me around all
day wanting me to read the magazines to him, and I would, over and over and
over and over. He LOVED them. And I don't think I was quite fast enough for
him. He just had to be able to read them for himself. Skip parts he didn't
want to read, back up and read paragraphs again etc. He would ask me how to
spell words, he would copy words on paper, he would ask me to read words for
him, he learned how to sound out more difficult words. And he learned to
read by the age of about 4. He knew he just HAD TO READ FOR HIMSELF.
My youngest was different. He also loved being read to and lived in the
very same environment. But was very content for me to read to him. He did not
have that same "NEED" to read everything himself. Several years ago he went
through a period of wanting me to spell words for him and he would write them
down on paper. But then that stopped. He called himself a nonreader for a
while. Although we have a great circle of unschooling friends we hang around
so for him there was no "negative" attachment to that (I think in society as
a whole the majority would look at being a nonreader at 9 as a negative
thing). Our circle of friends were/are so diverse in the age they started
reading that it wasn't any deal at all, big or small. LOL. But inside his head he
was absorbing things, it wasn't as "out there" as my older son. Then one
day this past year (he is 10 now) he just started reading these difficult
words. It seems to me that he went from reading "no", "mom", "dad" to reading
EVERYTHING, in a day. Although I am sure there was a process going on inside
him, it just wasn't out there for me to see like with my older son. So now in
what seems like a year he can read generally anything. It is so amazing.
So I have one that started reading around 4 and one that started around 10.
Very different processes for each of them. Both in their own time, but
neither in a vacuum. I just trusted that it would happen.
Pam G
Visit my blog: http://gentlegull.blogspot.com/
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> I apologize if this question has been asked already. How dochildren actually learn to read
> completely by themselves.<<<<<<<<<I can share how my boys learned to read. My oldest has always had an
interest in reading for as long as I can remember. Seems he was just "born that
way" LOL. We have always read as a family, still do. I don't think you ever
"outgrow" the joy of being read to. So we have always had lots of books
around and have always been a reading family. My oldest however has loved those
gaming magazines since he was like 3. I remember him following me around all
day wanting me to read the magazines to him, and I would, over and over and
over and over. He LOVED them. And I don't think I was quite fast enough for
him. He just had to be able to read them for himself. Skip parts he didn't
want to read, back up and read paragraphs again etc. He would ask me how to
spell words, he would copy words on paper, he would ask me to read words for
him, he learned how to sound out more difficult words. And he learned to
read by the age of about 4. He knew he just HAD TO READ FOR HIMSELF.
My youngest was different. He also loved being read to and lived in the
very same environment. But was very content for me to read to him. He did not
have that same "NEED" to read everything himself. Several years ago he went
through a period of wanting me to spell words for him and he would write them
down on paper. But then that stopped. He called himself a nonreader for a
while. Although we have a great circle of unschooling friends we hang around
so for him there was no "negative" attachment to that (I think in society as
a whole the majority would look at being a nonreader at 9 as a negative
thing). Our circle of friends were/are so diverse in the age they started
reading that it wasn't any deal at all, big or small. LOL. But inside his head he
was absorbing things, it wasn't as "out there" as my older son. Then one
day this past year (he is 10 now) he just started reading these difficult
words. It seems to me that he went from reading "no", "mom", "dad" to reading
EVERYTHING, in a day. Although I am sure there was a process going on inside
him, it just wasn't out there for me to see like with my older son. So now in
what seems like a year he can read generally anything. It is so amazing.
So I have one that started reading around 4 and one that started around 10.
Very different processes for each of them. Both in their own time, but
neither in a vacuum. I just trusted that it would happen.
Pam G
Visit my blog: http://gentlegull.blogspot.com/
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
> > I apologize if this question has been asked already. How doKids do not learn to read completely by themselves - not at all.
> children actually learn to read
> > completely by themselves.<<<<<<<<<
They don't need to be taught, though.
Kids learn to read when surrounded by a print-rich environment,
people who read to them a lot, and people who read for themselves for
real reasons. Kids need people who are sensitive to them and gently
support their emerging interest in language, when it appears, by
giving them just enough information and often by playing little fun
word or sound games.
Sometimes kids learn to read at a very young age and sometimes they
learn when they are much older - that depends mostly their own brain
development patterns. Teaching doesn't really hurry it along -
schools generally try to get all kids reading by 9 years old - they
don't succeed, but they do a lot of damage in the process of trying
-- they create lots of learning disabilities and tremendous amounts
of antipathy toward reading. And, what most kids learn is that
learning is difficult and that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for
many of them.
A few years ago, I wrote something about how my three kids learned to
read - it has a lot of very specific ideas for how to support
learning to read in ways other than teaching reading lessons. It is
here: <http://sandradodd.com/pam/reading>, if you want to take a look.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
There is no process. Learning happens inside the head of each
individual
learner. You might think about why you're so stuck on the idea there
has to be
a process.
-=-=-=-=-=-
If there *were* a process---ANY kind of process---any kind of one thing
that follows another that works for everyone---or even HALF of
everyone, don't you think the schools and all those "educators" out
there would have FOUND that process and figured it out and labeled it
and marketed it and used it in each and every classroom----and that
every single schooled child could read?
They *think* they have. They're wrong. Whole word doesn't work for some
people. Phonics doesn't work for some people. Hooked on phonics and BOB
books and that Davis method and Orton-Gillingham---if any of them
actually worked, if any of them were actually THE process, there would
be no non-readers in schools. There would be no struggles in schools.
If "they" are right, and there is some "process," why do we unschooling
parents have kids that can read without any adherence to a process? How
can our "success" in NOT teaching reading be explained?
Each person has a different way to "process" the written word. *Your*
child has his own "process." And it's not anything you can predict. I
can tell you the secret to reading though. SHSHSHSHSHSHHHHH....
It's having lots of printed materials around. It's YOU, reading---both
aloud and to yourself. It's writing down his stories before he's able
to. It's telling him what something says over and over and over. It's
spelling things for him again and again and again. It's playing word
games and rhyming and talking about stupid spellings and why they are
spelled so strangely.
And the BIG secret? PATIENCE. A child who is surrounded by the written
word and who sees his loved ones reading and enjoying printed materials
will *naturally* read when he's physically and mentally ready. It may
be at four. It may be at 14. But it doesn't matter *when* a person
learns to read. He'll do it when he's ready IF he's supported and
allowed to proceed at his own pace.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
individual
learner. You might think about why you're so stuck on the idea there
has to be
a process.
-=-=-=-=-=-
If there *were* a process---ANY kind of process---any kind of one thing
that follows another that works for everyone---or even HALF of
everyone, don't you think the schools and all those "educators" out
there would have FOUND that process and figured it out and labeled it
and marketed it and used it in each and every classroom----and that
every single schooled child could read?
They *think* they have. They're wrong. Whole word doesn't work for some
people. Phonics doesn't work for some people. Hooked on phonics and BOB
books and that Davis method and Orton-Gillingham---if any of them
actually worked, if any of them were actually THE process, there would
be no non-readers in schools. There would be no struggles in schools.
If "they" are right, and there is some "process," why do we unschooling
parents have kids that can read without any adherence to a process? How
can our "success" in NOT teaching reading be explained?
Each person has a different way to "process" the written word. *Your*
child has his own "process." And it's not anything you can predict. I
can tell you the secret to reading though. SHSHSHSHSHSHHHHH....
It's having lots of printed materials around. It's YOU, reading---both
aloud and to yourself. It's writing down his stories before he's able
to. It's telling him what something says over and over and over. It's
spelling things for him again and again and again. It's playing word
games and rhyming and talking about stupid spellings and why they are
spelled so strangely.
And the BIG secret? PATIENCE. A child who is surrounded by the written
word and who sees his loved ones reading and enjoying printed materials
will *naturally* read when he's physically and mentally ready. It may
be at four. It may be at 14. But it doesn't matter *when* a person
learns to read. He'll do it when he's ready IF he's supported and
allowed to proceed at his own pace.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Kim Musolff
If there *were* a process---ANY kind of process---any kind of one thing
that follows another that works for everyone---or even HALF of
everyone, don't you think the schools and all those "educators" out
there would have FOUND that process and figured it out and labeled it
and marketed it and used it in each and every classroom----and that
every single schooled child could read?
Learning how to read is a process, just like learning unschooling is a
process. Each child will go about it in his own way and come to understand
it in his own way, just like each of us will come to understand unschooling
on our own terms.
But there IS a process. Before children can learn to read, they need to
understand print knowledge (directionality, word-picture match, one-to-one
correspondance, etc.), phonics, decoding strategies, and comprehension.
Schools just teach these things, because they have to teach a bunch of kids
in an environment that is not real life. Many schools think they have the
process nailed (children should learn phonics first or children should learn
whole word recognitions first, etc.). But the problem is that, while that
may work for some children, it also doesn't work for a lot of children.
Those children are made to feel that they have some kind of a problem. So
while there are certain things that children need to know before they can
read, no child learns these things the same way. Some children will pick up
some or all of these things simply by observation and independent thinking.
Some by asking a lot of questions. Some need to have them specifically
pointed out to them. Schools cannot possibly handle this kind of
individualized teaching, especially if they are required to be held
accountable for their students' learning.
Another thing: Because schools are set up so that they must teach certain
things by certain times, teachers tend to approach reading as "if I teach
them these specific things, the result will be that they know how to read."
So teachers test and assess, and are looking for that end result. The
problem is that really, there is no end result. Because reading is a
process, children will always be in the middle of that process. Even adults
are in the middle of that process! There is no "perfect reader," because
that is not what reading is about. But if you are a school, set up to teach
certain things and you must assess children to see if they know that certain
thing, how can you possibly approach reading in this way? How can you
possibly support each child exactly where they need to be supported? It
doesn't work.
Schools are not bad. They have good intentions. They just can't
logistically support children in the ways that they need to, in order for
them to learn. Since they have to approach reading in a way to reach all
children, and they also have to "prove" that the children have been taught,
they will never be able to teach reading with any kind of success.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that follows another that works for everyone---or even HALF of
everyone, don't you think the schools and all those "educators" out
there would have FOUND that process and figured it out and labeled it
and marketed it and used it in each and every classroom----and that
every single schooled child could read?
Learning how to read is a process, just like learning unschooling is a
process. Each child will go about it in his own way and come to understand
it in his own way, just like each of us will come to understand unschooling
on our own terms.
But there IS a process. Before children can learn to read, they need to
understand print knowledge (directionality, word-picture match, one-to-one
correspondance, etc.), phonics, decoding strategies, and comprehension.
Schools just teach these things, because they have to teach a bunch of kids
in an environment that is not real life. Many schools think they have the
process nailed (children should learn phonics first or children should learn
whole word recognitions first, etc.). But the problem is that, while that
may work for some children, it also doesn't work for a lot of children.
Those children are made to feel that they have some kind of a problem. So
while there are certain things that children need to know before they can
read, no child learns these things the same way. Some children will pick up
some or all of these things simply by observation and independent thinking.
Some by asking a lot of questions. Some need to have them specifically
pointed out to them. Schools cannot possibly handle this kind of
individualized teaching, especially if they are required to be held
accountable for their students' learning.
Another thing: Because schools are set up so that they must teach certain
things by certain times, teachers tend to approach reading as "if I teach
them these specific things, the result will be that they know how to read."
So teachers test and assess, and are looking for that end result. The
problem is that really, there is no end result. Because reading is a
process, children will always be in the middle of that process. Even adults
are in the middle of that process! There is no "perfect reader," because
that is not what reading is about. But if you are a school, set up to teach
certain things and you must assess children to see if they know that certain
thing, how can you possibly approach reading in this way? How can you
possibly support each child exactly where they need to be supported? It
doesn't work.
Schools are not bad. They have good intentions. They just can't
logistically support children in the ways that they need to, in order for
them to learn. Since they have to approach reading in a way to reach all
children, and they also have to "prove" that the children have been taught,
they will never be able to teach reading with any kind of success.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads of information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm *so* much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi
Kim Musolff <kmoose75@...> wrote:
If there *were* a process---ANY kind of process---any kind of one thing
that follows another that works for everyone---or even HALF of
everyone, don't you think the schools and all those "educators" out
there would have FOUND that process and figured it out and labeled it
and marketed it and used it in each and every classroom----and that
every single schooled child could read?
Learning how to read is a process, just like learning unschooling is a
process. Each child will go about it in his own way and come to understand
it in his own way, just like each of us will come to understand unschooling
on our own terms.
But there IS a process. Before children can learn to read, they need to
understand print knowledge (directionality, word-picture match, one-to-one
correspondance, etc.), phonics, decoding strategies, and comprehension.
Schools just teach these things, because they have to teach a bunch of kids
in an environment that is not real life. Many schools think they have the
process nailed (children should learn phonics first or children should learn
whole word recognitions first, etc.). But the problem is that, while that
may work for some children, it also doesn't work for a lot of children.
Those children are made to feel that they have some kind of a problem. So
while there are certain things that children need to know before they can
read, no child learns these things the same way. Some children will pick up
some or all of these things simply by observation and independent thinking.
Some by asking a lot of questions. Some need to have them specifically
pointed out to them. Schools cannot possibly handle this kind of
individualized teaching, especially if they are required to be held
accountable for their students' learning.
Another thing: Because schools are set up so that they must teach certain
things by certain times, teachers tend to approach reading as "if I teach
them these specific things, the result will be that they know how to read."
So teachers test and assess, and are looking for that end result. The
problem is that really, there is no end result. Because reading is a
process, children will always be in the middle of that process. Even adults
are in the middle of that process! There is no "perfect reader," because
that is not what reading is about. But if you are a school, set up to teach
certain things and you must assess children to see if they know that certain
thing, how can you possibly approach reading in this way? How can you
possibly support each child exactly where they need to be supported? It
doesn't work.
Schools are not bad. They have good intentions. They just can't
logistically support children in the ways that they need to, in order for
them to learn. Since they have to approach reading in a way to reach all
children, and they also have to "prove" that the children have been taught,
they will never be able to teach reading with any kind of success.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi
Kim Musolff <kmoose75@...> wrote:
If there *were* a process---ANY kind of process---any kind of one thing
that follows another that works for everyone---or even HALF of
everyone, don't you think the schools and all those "educators" out
there would have FOUND that process and figured it out and labeled it
and marketed it and used it in each and every classroom----and that
every single schooled child could read?
Learning how to read is a process, just like learning unschooling is a
process. Each child will go about it in his own way and come to understand
it in his own way, just like each of us will come to understand unschooling
on our own terms.
But there IS a process. Before children can learn to read, they need to
understand print knowledge (directionality, word-picture match, one-to-one
correspondance, etc.), phonics, decoding strategies, and comprehension.
Schools just teach these things, because they have to teach a bunch of kids
in an environment that is not real life. Many schools think they have the
process nailed (children should learn phonics first or children should learn
whole word recognitions first, etc.). But the problem is that, while that
may work for some children, it also doesn't work for a lot of children.
Those children are made to feel that they have some kind of a problem. So
while there are certain things that children need to know before they can
read, no child learns these things the same way. Some children will pick up
some or all of these things simply by observation and independent thinking.
Some by asking a lot of questions. Some need to have them specifically
pointed out to them. Schools cannot possibly handle this kind of
individualized teaching, especially if they are required to be held
accountable for their students' learning.
Another thing: Because schools are set up so that they must teach certain
things by certain times, teachers tend to approach reading as "if I teach
them these specific things, the result will be that they know how to read."
So teachers test and assess, and are looking for that end result. The
problem is that really, there is no end result. Because reading is a
process, children will always be in the middle of that process. Even adults
are in the middle of that process! There is no "perfect reader," because
that is not what reading is about. But if you are a school, set up to teach
certain things and you must assess children to see if they know that certain
thing, how can you possibly approach reading in this way? How can you
possibly support each child exactly where they need to be supported? It
doesn't work.
Schools are not bad. They have good intentions. They just can't
logistically support children in the ways that they need to, in order for
them to learn. Since they have to approach reading in a way to reach all
children, and they also have to "prove" that the children have been taught,
they will never be able to teach reading with any kind of success.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 8, 2008, at 12:53 PM, Kim Musolff wrote:
Different processes for different kids.)
BUT WE DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.
All we need is our natural instincts to help them reach what they're
reaching for.
Same with reading. All you've listed are bits and pieces that are
natural to reading. We don't need to break the process down for us or
for the kids in order to help them. As with all natural learning,
kids absorb what they need from the chaos in the moment and figure it
out. Sometimes they'll ask questions to clarify some part. That's
part of the process.
In fact it's rewarding to pull order from chaos. It's way more
empowering *and* interesting than some person trying to hand out the
information in the order the person thinks it needs learned in.
Real learning is stumbling across an intriguing a puzzle you want to
solve with the whole world as a resource to get help from.
School "learning" is someone telling you which puzzle is important
then handing you the answer and telling you to memorize it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But there IS a process. Before children can learn to read, theyAnd there is some process for learning to speak. (Many processes.
> need to
> understand print knowledge (directionality, word-picture match, one-
> to-one
> correspondance, etc.), phonics, decoding strategies, and
> comprehension.
Different processes for different kids.)
BUT WE DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.
All we need is our natural instincts to help them reach what they're
reaching for.
Same with reading. All you've listed are bits and pieces that are
natural to reading. We don't need to break the process down for us or
for the kids in order to help them. As with all natural learning,
kids absorb what they need from the chaos in the moment and figure it
out. Sometimes they'll ask questions to clarify some part. That's
part of the process.
In fact it's rewarding to pull order from chaos. It's way more
empowering *and* interesting than some person trying to hand out the
information in the order the person thinks it needs learned in.
Real learning is stumbling across an intriguing a puzzle you want to
solve with the whole world as a resource to get help from.
School "learning" is someone telling you which puzzle is important
then handing you the answer and telling you to memorize it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ulrike Haupt
All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads of
information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm *so*
much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi
Hi Jodi
Can you remember HOW you learned to read?
Blissings
Ulrike
information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm *so*
much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi
Hi Jodi
Can you remember HOW you learned to read?
Blissings
Ulrike
Jodi Bezzola
I'm not sure why you're asking me, but I actually can't remember! Funny when I started to think about it. It occurred to me somewhere along the way in this thread about reading that I just started reading (before school) and loved it, and still love it. I don't remember anyone interfering much. I remember my mom had some montessori stuff, sandpaper letters to trace, etc., but I don't remember anyone trying to 'teach' me. I do however remember being massively bored in elementary school once they started 'teaching' reading! The beginning of my days acting out in school out of pure and utter boredom.
Jodi
Ulrike Haupt <rica@...> wrote:
All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads of
information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm *so*
much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi
Hi Jodi
Can you remember HOW you learned to read?
Blissings
Ulrike
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi
Ulrike Haupt <rica@...> wrote:
All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads of
information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm *so*
much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi
Hi Jodi
Can you remember HOW you learned to read?
Blissings
Ulrike
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ulrike Haupt
Dears,
may I add another view. Rickie, the boyfriend of my youngest daughter is colour blind. When he was in grade one the teacher told the children to paint pictures using certain colours. Green for the leaves and brown for the trunk of trees and that kind of things. Ricki deciphered the information (name of colour) on the crayons in order to 'get the right colour' that the teacher wanted to be put on the paper. HOW he actually learned the letters/words that he has not told us yet. <grin>
He told the teacher about the colour blindness when he was in grade 5 and she never got it.
As I am sitting here I've asked my husband (over 50) and my youngest son (15) how each learned to read. Both said that they started by getting to know the letters of the alphabeth. Then came the combination to get syllabes and then whole words and their meaning. Reading silently, reading out loud and writing on computer or handwriting were different roads to travel.
Whom do we trust about this most? Our own references or 'educators'?
I think this was one hell of an interesting thread so far.
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia - somewhere in Africa
may I add another view. Rickie, the boyfriend of my youngest daughter is colour blind. When he was in grade one the teacher told the children to paint pictures using certain colours. Green for the leaves and brown for the trunk of trees and that kind of things. Ricki deciphered the information (name of colour) on the crayons in order to 'get the right colour' that the teacher wanted to be put on the paper. HOW he actually learned the letters/words that he has not told us yet. <grin>
He told the teacher about the colour blindness when he was in grade 5 and she never got it.
As I am sitting here I've asked my husband (over 50) and my youngest son (15) how each learned to read. Both said that they started by getting to know the letters of the alphabeth. Then came the combination to get syllabes and then whole words and their meaning. Reading silently, reading out loud and writing on computer or handwriting were different roads to travel.
Whom do we trust about this most? Our own references or 'educators'?
I think this was one hell of an interesting thread so far.
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia - somewhere in Africa
----- Original Message -----
From: Jodi Bezzola
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Reading
I'm not sure why you're asking me, but I actually can't remember! Funny when I started to think about it. It occurred to me somewhere along the way in this thread about reading that I just started reading (before school) and loved it, and still love it. I don't remember anyone interfering much. I remember my mom had some montessori stuff, sandpaper letters to trace, etc., but I don't remember anyone trying to 'teach' me. I do however remember being massively bored in elementary school once they started 'teaching' reading! The beginning of my days acting out in school out of pure and utter boredom.
Jodi
Ulrike Haupt <rica@...> wrote:
All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads of
information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm *so*
much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi
Hi Jodi
Can you remember HOW you learned to read?
Blissings
Ulrike
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah OLeary
Jodi,
My experience is similar to yours. I am new to this unschooling experience, so I hope you all won't mind my two cents worth. My two oldest, now 26 and 22, entered school reading and writing their letters and numbers. They did not attend pre-school. I just gave them the tools (crayons, pencils and books) and they were able to learn. We just read a lot.
Deb
Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...> wrote: I'm not sure why you're asking me, but I actually can't remember! Funny when I started to think about it. It occurred to me somewhere along the way in this thread about reading that I just started reading (before school) and loved it, and still love it. I don't remember anyone interfering much. I remember my mom had some montessori stuff, sandpaper letters to trace, etc., but I don't remember anyone trying to 'teach' me. I do however remember being massively bored in elementary school once they started 'teaching' reading! The beginning of my days acting out in school out of pure and utter boredom.
Jodi
Ulrike Haupt <rica@...> wrote:
All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads of
information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm *so*
much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi
Hi Jodi
Can you remember HOW you learned to read?
Blissings
Ulrike
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My experience is similar to yours. I am new to this unschooling experience, so I hope you all won't mind my two cents worth. My two oldest, now 26 and 22, entered school reading and writing their letters and numbers. They did not attend pre-school. I just gave them the tools (crayons, pencils and books) and they were able to learn. We just read a lot.
Deb
Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...> wrote: I'm not sure why you're asking me, but I actually can't remember! Funny when I started to think about it. It occurred to me somewhere along the way in this thread about reading that I just started reading (before school) and loved it, and still love it. I don't remember anyone interfering much. I remember my mom had some montessori stuff, sandpaper letters to trace, etc., but I don't remember anyone trying to 'teach' me. I do however remember being massively bored in elementary school once they started 'teaching' reading! The beginning of my days acting out in school out of pure and utter boredom.
Jodi
Ulrike Haupt <rica@...> wrote:
All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads of
information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm *so*
much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi
Hi Jodi
Can you remember HOW you learned to read?
Blissings
Ulrike
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ulrike Haupt
Oh dears
I remember another story about learning to read.
One of my nephews learned to read by 'getting' the names of street signs. And his first 'book' was an encyclopedia, which he read from a to z. Well, he won most of the local weekly radio competions at an early age.
How is that for a way to 'learn to read?'
Blissings
Ulrike
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I remember another story about learning to read.
One of my nephews learned to read by 'getting' the names of street signs. And his first 'book' was an encyclopedia, which he read from a to z. Well, he won most of the local weekly radio competions at an early age.
How is that for a way to 'learn to read?'
Blissings
Ulrike
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
>All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads ofinformation about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm
*so* much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read
By reading and being read to and being surrounded by the printed word
(it's nearly impossible to avoid words in our society these days even if
ALL you ever do is watch TV). How do -you- learn something new? For
instance, if you see a friend making an awesome pan of lasagna right
down to making the whole wheat noodles, and you think "gee I'd like to
be able to do that" What do you do? Do you go find a lasagna making
class and make sure you're between the ages of 20-22 (the proper
learning to make lasagna age)? Probably not. You might pull out a
cookbook and by trial and error (hopefully some of it edible) come up
with your own process and off you go. You might ask your friend to show
it to you, explain it to you, hang out next to you while you try your
first go at it. Odds are neither the cookbook nor your friend will quiz
you about proper technique, protein ratios, etc. Rather, your friend
might notice that the dough looks a little dry from her experience and
suggest adding a little more water to the dough before rolling it out.
Same thing with unschooled kids learning to read - they may ask
questions, they may work it on their own, probably a bit of both, and
our job is to be alongside as much or as little as they choose to assist
in whatever way they choose. I could tell you about when DS learned to
read but it'd just be my perspective on what was happening, it wouldn't
actually be 100% accurate as to what was going on inside him - just as I
could tell you what he had for dinner last night but I couldn't 100%
accurately tell you how it digested once he ate it.
So, how did DS learn (he was right around 5 when he reached a level of
comfort and fluency that would be called 'reading', he's almost 10 now)?
We had magnets and books and closed captioning and road signs and
grocery lists and all that various stuff that most families with kids
have around. We'd read to him as he chose (and sometimes he was busy
playing with something while we read, he was not required to sit still
and look at the pages). We read on our own (both DH and I are
bibliophiles bigtime). I near about sprained my tongue pronouncing
"mrwtqzgjkln" when he assembled fridge magnet letters and said "Mommy,
what does that say?" - we also had a discussion about how some vowels
(aeiou) are helpful for Mommy to not sprain her tongue because the
English language needs vowels (of course, then I had "uioeoia" to try to
wrap my poor tongue around lol). Over time, he learned to recognize some
words and figure out others based on their similarity to other words he
already knew. That was pretty much it. I knew for certain he was
"reading" when he popped his head in one day when DH and I were in
another room and said "there's a severe thunderstorm watch until 10 pm"
- he had read the scroll feed across the bottom of the TV screen. That's
the best I can do to 'explain' how he learned to read - he learned to
read by reading.
Deb
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Ulrike Haupt
Dear Ren
Thank you for bringing it all into perspective again.
You wrote:
"They don't need to know anything about what you printed. They need to
be trusted. Reading isn't really this big magical thing people make it
out to be. Your child learned to speak an entire language without
knowing "processes", why wouldn't they learn other things the same way?
Helping people understand what learning looks like in unschooling
homes is more helpful than posting all about what kids "need" to
understand in order to learn certain things."
and
"I think teaching is harmful in
general because it places the power outside the individual. What it
really teaches them is that they NEED to be taught in order to learn!
It's harmful and demoralizing and schools are feeding that harm every day.
Unschoolers are living as if school and it's "processes" didn't exist."
Isn't it that every single one of our children is a 'special needs' learner
and it is up to us parents to provide the best environment for each child to
learn according to their individual needs at the time when they 'need' it.
That is how I understand unschooling in my own home. Just this evening Alex
had the 'need' to learn about astrology in order to understand something
about himself and his friends better. He was reading a German and an English
book at the same time. My 'teaching' part was to provide quick translations
between the two languages of sun signs and planet names when asked. He
could have looked these up in the dictionary, of course. :) In the
'schooling' mindset I would have told him to get the dictionary. In the
unschooling mindset of course I provided the answers in the same way as I
would provide it to any other person asking the question. And if he would
have asked me to read it to him I might have done that, too.
I have a mother who gives information unasked. It is extremely irritating.
:) And I catch myself so often when I want to do the same thing. Sometimes I
can keep my blabbermouth shut. <grin> Sometimes I don't and the backlash is
painful.
I can't remember where I read it but there was a reference to the need for
food and the need for sleep and the need for skill or knowledge. Eat when
you are hungry, sleep when you are tired and learn when you want to know.
Unschooling allows us (and our children) to follow our natural needs or
urges in these and all other areas.
Blissings
Ulrike
Thank you for bringing it all into perspective again.
You wrote:
"They don't need to know anything about what you printed. They need to
be trusted. Reading isn't really this big magical thing people make it
out to be. Your child learned to speak an entire language without
knowing "processes", why wouldn't they learn other things the same way?
Helping people understand what learning looks like in unschooling
homes is more helpful than posting all about what kids "need" to
understand in order to learn certain things."
and
"I think teaching is harmful in
general because it places the power outside the individual. What it
really teaches them is that they NEED to be taught in order to learn!
It's harmful and demoralizing and schools are feeding that harm every day.
Unschoolers are living as if school and it's "processes" didn't exist."
Isn't it that every single one of our children is a 'special needs' learner
and it is up to us parents to provide the best environment for each child to
learn according to their individual needs at the time when they 'need' it.
That is how I understand unschooling in my own home. Just this evening Alex
had the 'need' to learn about astrology in order to understand something
about himself and his friends better. He was reading a German and an English
book at the same time. My 'teaching' part was to provide quick translations
between the two languages of sun signs and planet names when asked. He
could have looked these up in the dictionary, of course. :) In the
'schooling' mindset I would have told him to get the dictionary. In the
unschooling mindset of course I provided the answers in the same way as I
would provide it to any other person asking the question. And if he would
have asked me to read it to him I might have done that, too.
I have a mother who gives information unasked. It is extremely irritating.
:) And I catch myself so often when I want to do the same thing. Sometimes I
can keep my blabbermouth shut. <grin> Sometimes I don't and the backlash is
painful.
I can't remember where I read it but there was a reference to the need for
food and the need for sleep and the need for skill or knowledge. Eat when
you are hungry, sleep when you are tired and learn when you want to know.
Unschooling allows us (and our children) to follow our natural needs or
urges in these and all other areas.
Blissings
Ulrike
Ren Allen
~~But there IS a process. Before children can learn to read, they
need to understand print knowledge (directionality, word-picture
match, one-to-one correspondance, etc.), phonics, decoding strategies,
and comprehension.~~
You're really convinced of this, I can see.
I'm not.
Even IF these "processes" needed to be in place before one can read,
one would most certainly not need the above names for them NOR the
awareness that they knew it.
But I don't believe the above need to exist in the learner in order to
read. My Jared NEVER learned any kind of phonics. In fact, the few
times he asked about letter sounds it just confused the heck out of
him. Learning whole words seems to be the way he learned best (no big
surprise since he memorized hundreds of symbols in pokemon and other
games).
They don't need to know anything about what you printed. They need to
be trusted. Reading isn't really this big magical thing people make it
out to be. Your child learned to speak an entire language without
knowing "processes", why wouldn't they learn other things the same way?
Helping people understand what learning looks like in unschooling
homes is more helpful than posting all about what kids "need" to
understand in order to learn certain things.
I totally disagree with the concept that school isn't all bad and they
simply fail to meet individual needs. I think teaching is harmful in
general because it places the power outside the individual. What it
really teaches them is that they NEED to be taught in order to learn!
It's harmful and demoralizing and schools are feeding that harm every day.
Unschoolers are living as if school and it's "processes" didn't exist.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
need to understand print knowledge (directionality, word-picture
match, one-to-one correspondance, etc.), phonics, decoding strategies,
and comprehension.~~
You're really convinced of this, I can see.
I'm not.
Even IF these "processes" needed to be in place before one can read,
one would most certainly not need the above names for them NOR the
awareness that they knew it.
But I don't believe the above need to exist in the learner in order to
read. My Jared NEVER learned any kind of phonics. In fact, the few
times he asked about letter sounds it just confused the heck out of
him. Learning whole words seems to be the way he learned best (no big
surprise since he memorized hundreds of symbols in pokemon and other
games).
They don't need to know anything about what you printed. They need to
be trusted. Reading isn't really this big magical thing people make it
out to be. Your child learned to speak an entire language without
knowing "processes", why wouldn't they learn other things the same way?
Helping people understand what learning looks like in unschooling
homes is more helpful than posting all about what kids "need" to
understand in order to learn certain things.
I totally disagree with the concept that school isn't all bad and they
simply fail to meet individual needs. I think teaching is harmful in
general because it places the power outside the individual. What it
really teaches them is that they NEED to be taught in order to learn!
It's harmful and demoralizing and schools are feeding that harm every day.
Unschoolers are living as if school and it's "processes" didn't exist.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
keetry
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
necessarily have to read with or in front of your children. All you
have to do is have printed materials around and they will be
interested and learn to read. Anyone else know anything about that?
Alysia
>I've had a couple of people tell me they've read that you don't even
> I
> can tell you the secret to reading though. SHSHSHSHSHSHHHHH....
>
> It's having lots of printed materials around.
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
necessarily have to read with or in front of your children. All you
have to do is have printed materials around and they will be
interested and learn to read. Anyone else know anything about that?
Alysia
keetry
--- In [email protected], "Kim Musolff" <kmoose75@...>
wrote:
most kids feel good about themselves until they go to first grade.
That's a pretty sad statement about school. I wonder if it occurs to
anyone in school that it might be school that's making kids feel bad
about themselves.
Alysia
wrote:
> Schools are not bad. They have good intentions.It's funny that you'd write this today. A therapist told me today that
> Kim
>
most kids feel good about themselves until they go to first grade.
That's a pretty sad statement about school. I wonder if it occurs to
anyone in school that it might be school that's making kids feel bad
about themselves.
Alysia
Mamachaos
All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads of information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm *so* much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi~
I have had a year of unschooling my 5, 8 and 13 year old. I was home-schooling before that. I did introduce the alphabet to my 8 year old last year. I did it "the waldorf way", which is drawing pictures and telling a story for each letter. Like a long wonderful story about a Mountain, and all the marvelous magicians that gathered there each Hallow's Eve. I drew the picture so that the mountain looked like an M--sort of. I left it at that. I did not bring awareness to my hidden M, but just drew the picture while I told the stories with lots of M words mixed in (15 minutes or so). The next day, I finally drew attention to the M, and he loved every letter like this. After the letters were introduced, he wanted to "learn to read". So, I bought "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons." He chose it. He loved it and did 88 lessons this year and then declared "I do not EVER want to do another lesson. I do not need nor want you to "teach" me anything more. I do not EVER want to do anything that is like School again, and I know how to read." WOW. I had thought he had enjoyed himself, as he was happy during and after these 15 minute "lessons".
So, guess what? I have not done another thing. That was 3 months ago, and he reads everything he sees....he tries. The book gave him the basic sounds, not really phonics, but more base sounds and allowed a lot of reading to occur with the new found sounds. The stories were funny, not dumb. Anyway, I watch closed caption TV at night when I go to bed, and since we all share the same bedroom for sleeping (this is an ebb and flow in itself!), he reads as much as he can from that, and only gets a few words before they disappear and are replaced with others. He seems to be doing very well! He is motivated to read those words, as he loves TV at night---like I might be watching Numbers, or the News (edited to not have the gore--I change the channel) and he loves to feel more grown up and read all about it.
He reads and spells so he can search for Star Wars toys on the Internet and I read to him, he listens to Stories on CD a lot as well. He has no interest in sitting down "to read" nor writing anything at all. I cringe, I am not used to letting things BE. I am trying to allow, to adjust, to BE myself so that they can BE themselves. I do see though, that he is persisting ALL ON HIS OWN. Just like when he learned to talk. It is really exactly the SAME process. And the 5 year old is following behind. Asking all the time..."how do you spell GIVE BACK?" for instance. I tell him, I sound out the letters a bit......some he guesses, we refer to all letters at pictures, like A is teepee, E is a diving board for all 3 brothers, M, mountain, N-nightcrawler, B-big belly B, D-Door etc. It makes it fun, not schoolish work.
Kelley
http://sandandstardust.blogspot.com/
"Childhood is a journey, not a race."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi~
I have had a year of unschooling my 5, 8 and 13 year old. I was home-schooling before that. I did introduce the alphabet to my 8 year old last year. I did it "the waldorf way", which is drawing pictures and telling a story for each letter. Like a long wonderful story about a Mountain, and all the marvelous magicians that gathered there each Hallow's Eve. I drew the picture so that the mountain looked like an M--sort of. I left it at that. I did not bring awareness to my hidden M, but just drew the picture while I told the stories with lots of M words mixed in (15 minutes or so). The next day, I finally drew attention to the M, and he loved every letter like this. After the letters were introduced, he wanted to "learn to read". So, I bought "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons." He chose it. He loved it and did 88 lessons this year and then declared "I do not EVER want to do another lesson. I do not need nor want you to "teach" me anything more. I do not EVER want to do anything that is like School again, and I know how to read." WOW. I had thought he had enjoyed himself, as he was happy during and after these 15 minute "lessons".
So, guess what? I have not done another thing. That was 3 months ago, and he reads everything he sees....he tries. The book gave him the basic sounds, not really phonics, but more base sounds and allowed a lot of reading to occur with the new found sounds. The stories were funny, not dumb. Anyway, I watch closed caption TV at night when I go to bed, and since we all share the same bedroom for sleeping (this is an ebb and flow in itself!), he reads as much as he can from that, and only gets a few words before they disappear and are replaced with others. He seems to be doing very well! He is motivated to read those words, as he loves TV at night---like I might be watching Numbers, or the News (edited to not have the gore--I change the channel) and he loves to feel more grown up and read all about it.
He reads and spells so he can search for Star Wars toys on the Internet and I read to him, he listens to Stories on CD a lot as well. He has no interest in sitting down "to read" nor writing anything at all. I cringe, I am not used to letting things BE. I am trying to allow, to adjust, to BE myself so that they can BE themselves. I do see though, that he is persisting ALL ON HIS OWN. Just like when he learned to talk. It is really exactly the SAME process. And the 5 year old is following behind. Asking all the time..."how do you spell GIVE BACK?" for instance. I tell him, I sound out the letters a bit......some he guesses, we refer to all letters at pictures, like A is teepee, E is a diving board for all 3 brothers, M, mountain, N-nightcrawler, B-big belly B, D-Door etc. It makes it fun, not schoolish work.
Kelley
http://sandandstardust.blogspot.com/
"Childhood is a journey, not a race."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristie Cochran
Jodi,
I haven't read the responses to this question yet, but just wanted to
share that I'm not really sure how my 6yo learned to read. I sort of
found out he could read by accident. I will tell you that he asked a
lot of questions, "What does this say?!!" and I would answer him and
read what he wanted me to read (mostly stuff on his video games). I was
really frustrated with him one day because he got a new game and I
downloaded a walkthru for him and he kept asking me every 2 minutes,
"What do I do next?" And finally I said, exasperatedly, "What does
this say??!!!" and he read the sentence to me. I couldn't believe it! I
was in total shock and awe. Video game walkthrus are written by
teenagers and older kids/people, so this wasn't like he was reading an
"early reader" book. These were big and hard words. He still amazes me
by what he can read.
So, hope this gives you a little insight into "how" unschoolers learn to
read. We basically just read to our kids and answer their questions. I
don't make my kid sound out words, he doesn't really know how to do that.
Kristie
All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads of
information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm
*so* much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi
I haven't read the responses to this question yet, but just wanted to
share that I'm not really sure how my 6yo learned to read. I sort of
found out he could read by accident. I will tell you that he asked a
lot of questions, "What does this say?!!" and I would answer him and
read what he wanted me to read (mostly stuff on his video games). I was
really frustrated with him one day because he got a new game and I
downloaded a walkthru for him and he kept asking me every 2 minutes,
"What do I do next?" And finally I said, exasperatedly, "What does
this say??!!!" and he read the sentence to me. I couldn't believe it! I
was in total shock and awe. Video game walkthrus are written by
teenagers and older kids/people, so this wasn't like he was reading an
"early reader" book. These were big and hard words. He still amazes me
by what he can read.
So, hope this gives you a little insight into "how" unschoolers learn to
read. We basically just read to our kids and answer their questions. I
don't make my kid sound out words, he doesn't really know how to do that.
Kristie
All this is really just blah blah blah to me. I'm reading loads of
information about the flawed way schools "teach" kids to read here. I'm
*so* much more interested in hearing how unschoolers "learn" to read.
Jodi
Kim Musolff
Even IF these "processes" needed to be in place before one can read,
one would most certainly not need the above names for them NOR the
awareness that they knew it.
I really wasn't saying that we needed the names for the process. I was
simply debating the fact that reading (like unschooling or talking or
learning anything, really) has a process. Everything we learn has a
process.
But I don't believe the above need to exist in the learner in order to
read. My Jared NEVER learned any kind of phonics.
That's just false. In order to become a proficient reader, one needs to
know all of the things I mentioned. I wasn't saying that we need to "teach"
these things, or that we even need to know these things. Just that they
exist as part of the process of reading. If your son reads, then he knows
phonics. He doesn't have to be "taught" phonics or even verbalize phonics
rules. But he does know phonics if he reads. (and if he doesn't now, he
will know it at some point.) English is an alphabetic language, not a
symbolic one. In order to read new words, we must know how to sound them
out. We do this even as adults. (Try reading the ingredients on the back
of your shampoo bottle!)
They don't need to know anything about what you printed. They need to
be trusted. Reading isn't really this big magical thing people make it
out to be. Your child learned to speak an entire language without
knowing "processes", why wouldn't they learn other things the same way?
I explained above why I believe that they do need to know what I printed in
order to read. However, I agree with you about the rest. Just because
there is a process, doesn't mean that we need to know it. My son will tell
you that he learned to read on his own, because I didn't push or name this
process. (Though I can't help knowing what I already know.) I really do
believe that if you trust children to learn on their own, they will learn.
Just like when they learned to talk. There is so much pressure on schools
to "teach" reading, that I think that pressure is put on parents as well.
No one pressures us to "teach" our children to talk, so we don't push it.
But when people think of learning to read, they get nervous if their child
doesn't know how to do it yet.
Helping people understand what learning looks like in unschooling
homes is more helpful than posting all about what kids "need" to
understand in order to learn certain things.
My point wasn't what children "need" to know, it was that there is a process
to reading. Isn't that helpful to know that reading is a process? Children
don't just read or not read. It is a process. Just like I don't fully
grasp unschooling all the way. I'm in the middle of the process of learning
how to implement unschooling into my life. When I first understood that it
is a PROCESS (unschooling), I felt so much better about not knowing
everything there is to know about unschooling. I realized that it will come
eventually, in its own natural path.
I figured it would be helpful if people, who are worried about their
children's reading journey, understood that reading is a process. Maybe
their child is in the middle of that process right now, and if they
recognize that, they can relax a little. (I understand the point of
unschooling is to NOT worry about what your child is learning in the first
place, but in reality, we do worry when our child isn't reading--especially
those of us just beginning this journey.)
I totally disagree with the concept that school isn't all bad and they
simply fail to meet individual needs. I think teaching is harmful in
general because it places the power outside the individual. What it
really teaches them is that they NEED to be taught in order to learn!
It's harmful and demoralizing and schools are feeding that harm every day.
I agree. That's why I don't send my children to school. But many people
do--some of them feel like they have no choice but to send their children to
school. And I really don't believe that teachers and school authorities are
bad in nature. If someone gave me a classroom full of kids and told me to
teach them to read, I would probably end up doing what they do in schools.
It's not ideal, or even the best senerio. But if these kids have to go to
school, that's how they'll have to learn. Some do learn. And some don't.
The teachers there are doing the best that they can, with what they know.
Unschoolers are living as if school and it's "processes" didn't exist.
But schools (and their processes) DO exist. Many people on this list are
here because they love the idea of unschooling, but are very aware that they
are going against mainstream society's beliefs about education. They
believe that unschooling is the right thing to do, but have questions
regarding what they've been "taught" about education and learning, etc. I
think it is very important to have discussions about unschooling vs. school
and the difference in their philosophies about learning. I assumed that
this list was the forum to do that. If not, I sincerely apologize and I
will find a more appropriate place to do that.
I wasn't trying to start a fight here, I am trying to understand unschooling
in a way that is meaningful to me (and hopefully others out there). Being
a former teacher, education and learning is what I know (or thought I
knew!). That is the place I am coming from as I start my journey to
unschool. WHile I generally agree with the unschooling philosophy, there
are obviously some points that go against what I believe to be true. I
fully understand that when I post some of the things that I've posted here,
I will get an opposing viewpoint. That's why I do it. I need to hear that
viewpoint, so that I can choose for myself if I want to keep or change my
viewpoint.
Sorry if I offended...
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
one would most certainly not need the above names for them NOR the
awareness that they knew it.
I really wasn't saying that we needed the names for the process. I was
simply debating the fact that reading (like unschooling or talking or
learning anything, really) has a process. Everything we learn has a
process.
But I don't believe the above need to exist in the learner in order to
read. My Jared NEVER learned any kind of phonics.
That's just false. In order to become a proficient reader, one needs to
know all of the things I mentioned. I wasn't saying that we need to "teach"
these things, or that we even need to know these things. Just that they
exist as part of the process of reading. If your son reads, then he knows
phonics. He doesn't have to be "taught" phonics or even verbalize phonics
rules. But he does know phonics if he reads. (and if he doesn't now, he
will know it at some point.) English is an alphabetic language, not a
symbolic one. In order to read new words, we must know how to sound them
out. We do this even as adults. (Try reading the ingredients on the back
of your shampoo bottle!)
They don't need to know anything about what you printed. They need to
be trusted. Reading isn't really this big magical thing people make it
out to be. Your child learned to speak an entire language without
knowing "processes", why wouldn't they learn other things the same way?
I explained above why I believe that they do need to know what I printed in
order to read. However, I agree with you about the rest. Just because
there is a process, doesn't mean that we need to know it. My son will tell
you that he learned to read on his own, because I didn't push or name this
process. (Though I can't help knowing what I already know.) I really do
believe that if you trust children to learn on their own, they will learn.
Just like when they learned to talk. There is so much pressure on schools
to "teach" reading, that I think that pressure is put on parents as well.
No one pressures us to "teach" our children to talk, so we don't push it.
But when people think of learning to read, they get nervous if their child
doesn't know how to do it yet.
Helping people understand what learning looks like in unschooling
homes is more helpful than posting all about what kids "need" to
understand in order to learn certain things.
My point wasn't what children "need" to know, it was that there is a process
to reading. Isn't that helpful to know that reading is a process? Children
don't just read or not read. It is a process. Just like I don't fully
grasp unschooling all the way. I'm in the middle of the process of learning
how to implement unschooling into my life. When I first understood that it
is a PROCESS (unschooling), I felt so much better about not knowing
everything there is to know about unschooling. I realized that it will come
eventually, in its own natural path.
I figured it would be helpful if people, who are worried about their
children's reading journey, understood that reading is a process. Maybe
their child is in the middle of that process right now, and if they
recognize that, they can relax a little. (I understand the point of
unschooling is to NOT worry about what your child is learning in the first
place, but in reality, we do worry when our child isn't reading--especially
those of us just beginning this journey.)
I totally disagree with the concept that school isn't all bad and they
simply fail to meet individual needs. I think teaching is harmful in
general because it places the power outside the individual. What it
really teaches them is that they NEED to be taught in order to learn!
It's harmful and demoralizing and schools are feeding that harm every day.
I agree. That's why I don't send my children to school. But many people
do--some of them feel like they have no choice but to send their children to
school. And I really don't believe that teachers and school authorities are
bad in nature. If someone gave me a classroom full of kids and told me to
teach them to read, I would probably end up doing what they do in schools.
It's not ideal, or even the best senerio. But if these kids have to go to
school, that's how they'll have to learn. Some do learn. And some don't.
The teachers there are doing the best that they can, with what they know.
Unschoolers are living as if school and it's "processes" didn't exist.
But schools (and their processes) DO exist. Many people on this list are
here because they love the idea of unschooling, but are very aware that they
are going against mainstream society's beliefs about education. They
believe that unschooling is the right thing to do, but have questions
regarding what they've been "taught" about education and learning, etc. I
think it is very important to have discussions about unschooling vs. school
and the difference in their philosophies about learning. I assumed that
this list was the forum to do that. If not, I sincerely apologize and I
will find a more appropriate place to do that.
I wasn't trying to start a fight here, I am trying to understand unschooling
in a way that is meaningful to me (and hopefully others out there). Being
a former teacher, education and learning is what I know (or thought I
knew!). That is the place I am coming from as I start my journey to
unschool. WHile I generally agree with the unschooling philosophy, there
are obviously some points that go against what I believe to be true. I
fully understand that when I post some of the things that I've posted here,
I will get an opposing viewpoint. That's why I do it. I need to hear that
viewpoint, so that I can choose for myself if I want to keep or change my
viewpoint.
Sorry if I offended...
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Musolff
Schools are not bad. They have good intentions.
most kids feel good about themselves until they go to first grade.
I'd believe that! So many kids at school have low self esteem. I didn't
mean that school are not bad for our children (that's why I pulled my kids
out!). I meant that schools are not intentionally trying to mess these
children up.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> KimIt's funny that you'd write this today. A therapist told me today that
>
most kids feel good about themselves until they go to first grade.
I'd believe that! So many kids at school have low self esteem. I didn't
mean that school are not bad for our children (that's why I pulled my kids
out!). I meant that schools are not intentionally trying to mess these
children up.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~That's just false. In order to become a proficient reader, one needs
to know all of the things I mentioned.~~
Bullshit.
Jared knew entire words and read just fine and still didn't know the
individual letter sounds.
Keep holding onto that if it makes you feel better. But it's really
just a bunch of schoolish crap that is unecessary and isn't helping
anyone understand unschooling.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
to know all of the things I mentioned.~~
Bullshit.
Jared knew entire words and read just fine and still didn't know the
individual letter sounds.
Keep holding onto that if it makes you feel better. But it's really
just a bunch of schoolish crap that is unecessary and isn't helping
anyone understand unschooling.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com