Tina

I've been curious as to others opinions in something I find
myself "struggling" with along our unschooling journey. I've not
really seen too much talk of it anywhere, and am going to do my best
to describe what I'm thinking about.

As many of you know our family has a combination of educational paths
for the various children. Two have graduated, two are graduating
public school next year, two are in public charter school and one is
home/unschooled. I believe the dynamics of our family are relevant
to this quandry.

My question, of course, is about my one unschooled child. His
history is that he attended K-3.5 in public partnership school. I
pulled him out at Christmas break. We did "school at home" for about
a year and have been unschooling for about seven months. We both are
much happier for it, but those around us know nothing of the
philosophy.

I totally agree with the unschooling philosophy and do my best to
practice it in all aspects of my daily living. It's wonderful! The
one "perk" that was not forseen is the fact that I get to do things
that I enjoy. That's a whole 'nother topic. :)

The thing that I am struggling with is negativity. My son is 10, and
he's a perfectionist. He's not the most polite person around.
That's the struggle. He's quick to notice other's short comings and
has no quams about saying things. He says totally what's on his mind
with no regard to the feelings of those around him. In my words, he
can be rather abrasive. He' argumentative and negative regularly.
Has anyone else been through this? This is something that has been
going on for a while. It's not a new concern. I keep trying to ride
it out, but it's difficult.

This type of behavior doesn't seem to be too common with home
schooled children, let alone unschooled. I know it's only been seven
months, and it will take much longer for us to deprogram ourselves.
I've been not saying too much, but it's getting more and more
difficult to bite my tongue, and/or control it. I find myself
getting more concerned about the programs that he watches on
television and the PS2 games that he plays. He watches
programs/movies and plays games that I know most mothers of children
his age would just think me crazy for "allowing" it, but I'm not
controlling his choices.

Is there a point when this will seem less worry some? Are there
things that I could/should be doing to improve the situation? Am I
worrying about "nothing"? What are your thoughts?

Sorry if it's not too clear. This was really difficult to put into
words, but I'd love your thoughts on the subject.

Thanks - Tina

eriksmama2001

Part of learning involves learning how our actions effect other
people. Sharing one's feelings and opinions of "negative influences"
from your perspective are just that sharing information. Explaining
how his actions or behavior effect you is different than forcing a
change in behavior. Speak up. Saying nothing about your feelings and
opinions models and "teaches" him that his effect on others doesn't
matter. You can assume that this is what he will learn and will
practice.


Pat



--- In [email protected], "Tina" <zoocrew@w...> wrote:
> I've been curious as to others opinions in something I find
> myself "struggling" with along our unschooling journey. I've not
> really seen too much talk of it anywhere, and am going to do my
best
> to describe what I'm thinking about.
>
> As many of you know our family has a combination of educational
paths
> for the various children. Two have graduated, two are graduating
> public school next year, two are in public charter school and one
is
> home/unschooled. I believe the dynamics of our family are relevant
> to this quandry.
>
> My question, of course, is about my one unschooled child. His
> history is that he attended K-3.5 in public partnership school. I
> pulled him out at Christmas break. We did "school at home" for
about
> a year and have been unschooling for about seven months. We both
are
> much happier for it, but those around us know nothing of the
> philosophy.
>
> I totally agree with the unschooling philosophy and do my best to
> practice it in all aspects of my daily living. It's wonderful!
The
> one "perk" that was not forseen is the fact that I get to do things
> that I enjoy. That's a whole 'nother topic. :)
>
> The thing that I am struggling with is negativity. My son is 10,
and
> he's a perfectionist. He's not the most polite person around.
> That's the struggle. He's quick to notice other's short comings
and
> has no quams about saying things. He says totally what's on his
mind
> with no regard to the feelings of those around him. In my words,
he
> can be rather abrasive. He' argumentative and negative regularly.
> Has anyone else been through this? This is something that has been
> going on for a while. It's not a new concern. I keep trying to
ride
> it out, but it's difficult.
>
> This type of behavior doesn't seem to be too common with home
> schooled children, let alone unschooled. I know it's only been
seven
> months, and it will take much longer for us to deprogram
ourselves.
> I've been not saying too much, but it's getting more and more
> difficult to bite my tongue, and/or control it. I find myself
> getting more concerned about the programs that he watches on
> television and the PS2 games that he plays. He watches
> programs/movies and plays games that I know most mothers of
children
> his age would just think me crazy for "allowing" it, but I'm not
> controlling his choices.
>
> Is there a point when this will seem less worry some? Are there
> things that I could/should be doing to improve the situation? Am I
> worrying about "nothing"? What are your thoughts?
>
> Sorry if it's not too clear. This was really difficult to put into
> words, but I'd love your thoughts on the subject.
>
> Thanks - Tina

Dana Matt

I
> find myself
> getting more concerned about the programs that he
> watches on
> television and the PS2 games that he plays. He
> watches
> programs/movies and plays games that I know most
> mothers of children
> his age would just think me crazy for "allowing" it,
> but I'm not
> controlling his choices.

You say you don't think this is common in homeschooled
and unschooled kids, yet you question his TV and video
games? I'll bet he's not the only kid on this list
using those ;)

When someone says something that hurts me, I tell
them. You can't control his attitude, but you can
tell him how it makes you feel...

Dana
in MOntana





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April M

Hi Tina,
Not sure I can offer 'help', but I so know what you mean about "most mothers
of children
his age would just think me crazy for "allowing" it" .....I get that a lot,
not usually
directly or blatantly...but it sure is alluded to a lot!!! And it can be
hard. I know what I am doing is right for us, and I know my kids are good
kids. I have a few people that believe in the choices I'm making, many that
respect me in spite of it I think, and some that don't respect my choices
though they like me personally, and some that just think I'm crazy. I can
also tell you that just because a child is homeschooled or even unschooled,
doesn't mean they aren't kids with all their quirks and foibles. If my kids
have say unkind or abrasive things, we talk about it...how it felt to the
others, how to day it differently...when to say something, when not
to....all a part of learning. (heck, I know some adults who haven't learned
this yet!). And believe me...yours is not the only unschooled child to
behave like this! (I can say this from personal experience!) Kids are
kids...

~April
Mom to Kate-17, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-8.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"It must be remembered that the purpose of education is not to fill the
minds of students with facts... it is to teach them to think." ~~ Robert
Hutchins




-----Original Message-----
From: Tina [mailto:zoocrew@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Please share your thoughts and wisdom...


I've been curious as to others opinions in something I find
myself "struggling" with along our unschooling journey. I've not
really seen too much talk of it anywhere, and am going to do my best
to describe what I'm thinking about.

As many of you know our family has a combination of educational paths
for the various children. Two have graduated, two are graduating
public school next year, two are in public charter school and one is
home/unschooled. I believe the dynamics of our family are relevant
to this quandry.

My question, of course, is about my one unschooled child. His
history is that he attended K-3.5 in public partnership school. I
pulled him out at Christmas break. We did "school at home" for about
a year and have been unschooling for about seven months. We both are
much happier for it, but those around us know nothing of the
philosophy.

I totally agree with the unschooling philosophy and do my best to
practice it in all aspects of my daily living. It's wonderful! The
one "perk" that was not forseen is the fact that I get to do things
that I enjoy. That's a whole 'nother topic. :)

The thing that I am struggling with is negativity. My son is 10, and
he's a perfectionist. He's not the most polite person around.
That's the struggle. He's quick to notice other's short comings and
has no quams about saying things. He says totally what's on his mind
with no regard to the feelings of those around him. In my words, he
can be rather abrasive. He' argumentative and negative regularly.
Has anyone else been through this? This is something that has been
going on for a while. It's not a new concern. I keep trying to ride
it out, but it's difficult.

This type of behavior doesn't seem to be too common with home
schooled children, let alone unschooled. I know it's only been seven
months, and it will take much longer for us to deprogram ourselves.
I've been not saying too much, but it's getting more and more
difficult to bite my tongue, and/or control it. I find myself
getting more concerned about the programs that he watches on
television and the PS2 games that he plays. He watches
programs/movies and plays games that I know most mothers of children
his age would just think me crazy for "allowing" it, but I'm not
controlling his choices.

Is there a point when this will seem less worry some? Are there
things that I could/should be doing to improve the situation? Am I
worrying about "nothing"? What are your thoughts?

Sorry if it's not too clear. This was really difficult to put into
words, but I'd love your thoughts on the subject.

Thanks - Tina




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina

"And believe me...yours is not the only unschooled child to
behave like this! (I can say this from personal experience!) Kids are
kids..."

Part of me knows this, it just hasn't seemed to come up much. I
guess what it boils down to is this. Continue modeling positive
behavior, speak up when his actions and words are disrespectful
(which I have been doing, it just doesn't seem to matter), and
continue down the unschooling path.

I guess there's just part of me that is worried due to the length of
time this has persisted. I never thought about the fact that some
adults haven't gotten "it" yet. Hopefully, he will get it before
then. Patience...acceptance...patience...acceptance...

Thanks guys - Tina

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/20/2004 2:22:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
zoocrew@... writes:

Continue modeling positive
behavior, speak up when his actions and words are disrespectful
(which I have been doing, it just doesn't seem to matter), and
continue down the unschooling path.



<<<

Mary (zenmomma) Gold used to have a reminder pasted on her mirror:

"It's NOT the unschooling"

Whatever's troubling you is probably due to any number of things, but's it's
NOT the unschooling. Unschooling brings relief and peace and joy. It's the
"other" things that can get in the way.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina

"Whatever's troubling you is probably due to any number of things,
but's it's NOT the unschooling. Unschooling brings relief and peace
and joy. It's the "other" things that can get in the way."

I recognize and acknowledge that fact whole heartedly. I guess my
concern lies in how to balance the gift of complete freedom with the
die hard desire to change his behavior. My creativity has always
faltered in this area. The "problem" began before unschooling. I
just wonder how/if it can be modified in an unschooling environment.
(I know that's a poor choice of words, but I can't think of any other
way to say it.) Honestly, I thought the abrasiveness would have
softened a little by now.

From past experience I know that attempting to control the situation
myself does not work, and that doesn't fit with our unschooling way
of life. Again, it must just involve patience with the child and
faith that he will grow into a respectful young man and loving him no
matter how he grows. That's the only way I can see it right now...

Tina

melissazietlow

--- In [email protected], "Tina" <zoocrew@w...> wrote:

> From past experience I know that attempting to control the
situation > myself does not work, and that doesn't fit with our
unschooling way of life. Again, it must just involve patience with
the child and faith that he will grow into a respectful young man and
loving him no matter how he grows. That's the only way I can see it
right now...


Tina,

I can so relate to your concerns, and this entire thread. My dd is
the same way. Negative, and continually abrasive. I realize these
are negative labels, and I try to replace them with more positive
ones like serious, analytical, expressive, and assertive. But it
comes down to an issue of respect for other's feelings, and on
difficult days the negative labels are hard to let go of. She is
only 5yo, and I know that some of her behavior is age-related, but
she is extreme. Sometimes the mean looks and sour tone are just too
much. I just e-mailed a friend today to ask for prayer because I
feel like I need to apologize for Orion's behavior/energy after we
have been out somewhere (and worry about it when I leave her with
someone). And then I feel conflicted about feeling this way!

Like many have suggested, I try to model right behavior and point out
to her how she makes others feel, without being punitive. But it is
hard. Today she was rude to the friend we were visiting (because she
did not like the limits my friend has for playing in the house), and
I told her that Julianne did not appreciate being talked to that way,
and she made a nasty face, hands on hips, and stomped her feet. This
had been happening for most of our visit, so I asked her to come sit
by me for some time to think. I asked her if she thought Julianne
enjoyed having her over when she talks mean and makes faces? She
continued with the mean tone and expressions and I told her that I
would like to hear her apologize, which she eventually did (I did not
force it). I allowed her to get up when she agreed she was not
feeling mean anymore. I tried to maintain a neutral, non-condemning
tone with her, as I try to do most days. But it almost felt like a
wasted effort, because I don't know if it was the right way to handle
it, and I'm not seeing lasting results at this point from using this
approach (instead of spanking or harshly reprimanding or time-out or
threats). I wonder all the time if she acts the way she does because
she is modeling me from the past or even now when I don't realize it?

I want to have faith that she will blossom into a more positive
person.

MZ

Tina

"I want to have faith that she will blossom into a more positive
person."

I can SO relate to your experience with your dd. I have been in many
similar situations with my ds. He is 10, and I keep holding to the
belief that he will blossom into a more positive person. It's
frustrating. I honestly thought it would have changed by now. I
actually spoke with someone today that had a son similar to my ds.
She said that it took until he was 18 years old before he changed
into his sweet, wonderful self.

I'm holding fast to the belief that it's just something that he has
to grow through, it's just so difficult. I really don't know how to
handle him when he's so negative, rude, etc. I really like the way
you changed the negative labels to positive ones. I too recognize
this in my son. It's just that the moments where I see his
personality as a strength are so few in comparison to the moments
when I'm worried about what he will say or how he'll act.

I wonder if anyone knows of a book out there that may be helpful to
the both of us in this situation. There has to be a positive way to
react to such situations that are beneficial to everyone, dc
included. That's one area where I have a weakness that I sure wish
was a strenght. With seven children creative parenting would really
be a big bonus!

Hang in there, it has to get better...

Tina

melissazietlow

--- In [email protected], "Tina" <zoocrew@w...> wrote:
> I wonder if anyone knows of a book out there that may be helpful to
the both of us in this situation. There has to be a positive way to
react to such situations that are beneficial to everyone, dc
included.

Don't know if they've been mentioned to you or not, but two books
that have really helped me recently with communication are How to
Talk So Your Kids Will Listen & Listen So Your Kids Will Talk by
Faber/Mazlish and PET (Parent Effectiveness Training)by Gordon. I am
also in the middle of Everyday Blessings: The Inner Work of Mindful
Parenting by Kabat-Zinn and highly recommend it.

MZ

mrskos1997

You may want to try "Raising your spirited child" by Mary Sheedy
Kurcinka. It is about dealing with spirited (aka difficult)
children and it has some good tips. Some kids may not show all the
tendencies but the strategies for dealing with them may help you.

Angela


--- In [email protected], "Tina" <zoocrew@w...>
wrote:
> "I want to have faith that she will blossom into a more positive
> person."
>
> I can SO relate to your experience with your dd. I have been in
many
> similar situations with my ds. He is 10, and I keep holding to
the
> belief that he will blossom into a more positive person. It's
> frustrating. I honestly thought it would have changed by now. I
> actually spoke with someone today that had a son similar to my
ds.
> She said that it took until he was 18 years old before he changed
> into his sweet, wonderful self.
>
> I'm holding fast to the belief that it's just something that he
has
> to grow through, it's just so difficult. I really don't know how
to
> handle him when he's so negative, rude, etc. I really like the
way
> you changed the negative labels to positive ones. I too recognize
> this in my son. It's just that the moments where I see his
> personality as a strength are so few in comparison to the moments
> when I'm worried about what he will say or how he'll act.
>
> I wonder if anyone knows of a book out there that may be helpful
to
> the both of us in this situation. There has to be a positive way
to
> react to such situations that are beneficial to everyone, dc
> included. That's one area where I have a weakness that I sure
wish
> was a strenght. With seven children creative parenting would
really
> be a big bonus!
>
> Hang in there, it has to get better...
>
> Tina

melissazietlow

--- In [email protected], "mrskos1997" <mrskos@s...>
wrote:
> You may want to try "Raising your spirited child" by Mary Sheedy
> Kurcinka. It is about dealing with spirited (aka difficult)
> children and it has some good tips. Some kids may not show all the
> tendencies but the strategies for dealing with them may help you.

Read that one too, and it did have lots of helpful ideas as well.
Not sure if it is really geared for older children, though?

MZ

eriksmama2001

You may want to investigate the Feingold diet. There is a complete
chapter of their introductory book on-line. My friend's 13 year old
was amazingly helped by learning that there are some food additives
and preservatives that were significantly troublesome for him.
Because of his age he was aware that he felt so much happier and
calmer by restricting some chemicals; so he follows the diet, mostly.
There is plenty of "junk food" for teens who prefer that type of
diet. It guides one to brand choices that have been researched to
exclude specific preservatives.

Behaviors like impulse control, volume control, physical intensity
and sleep disturbances can be significantly effected by some common
chemicals in our foods. There is a complete list on-line. In 48 hours
of very strict adherence you could see if there is a difference.

Pat







--- In [email protected], "melissazietlow"
<Zietlowfamily@w...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "mrskos1997"
<mrskos@s...>
> wrote:
> > You may want to try "Raising your spirited child" by Mary Sheedy
> > Kurcinka. It is about dealing with spirited (aka difficult)
> > children and it has some good tips. Some kids may not show all
the
> > tendencies but the strategies for dealing with them may help you.
>
> Read that one too, and it did have lots of helpful ideas as well.
> Not sure if it is really geared for older children, though?
>
> MZ