Heather

You might want to read "Don't bother me mom - I'm Learning" by Marc
Prensky. I received it for Christmas, but haven't read it yet. The cover
reads "How computer and video games are preparing your kids for 21st century
success - and how you can help!"

Although some of the suggestions are common sense to those of us who
unschool...like play the games with your kids and talk to your kids about
them, what they like about their games, etc. (I have flipped through it a
bit...)

The back cover reads in part, "Prensky believes that kids are so attracted
to these games because they are learning about important "future" things,
from collaboration, to prudent risk taking, to strategy formulation and
execution, to complex moral and ethical decisions. The author's arguments
are supported by PhDs studying both violence and games in their totality,
and by studies of gamers who have become successful corporate workers,
entrepreneurs, leaders, doctors, lawyers, scientists and other
professionals."

I had a friend and her 11 year old daughter spend a couple days with us
before Christmas. My son, also 11, and her daughter played a lot of Pokemon
games on their respective gameboys. The kids mentioned I might be getting a
DS lite for Christmas. She asked if I wanted one. I said it would be nice
when we were all waiting somewhere together and my dh & 2 kids were all
playing Brain Age together, that it would be fun for me to play too. She
seemed exasperated..."you are supposed to have conversation when you are
waiting!" I didn't think til later to explain that since we homeschool, we
are together almost 24/7 and have plenty of conversation. Unlike her
family, where she had just finished telling me about her daughter (in the
gifted program at her school, of course), who had been getting up at 3:30 &
4 a.m. (!) to get her homework finished. Ack!

Anyway, sorry for the rant :)

heather
tucson

p.s. And yes,I did get a DS lite for Christmas :)




On 12/27/06, A Voss Dolce <avd@...> wrote:
>
> Maybe I should repost this comment as How not to be worried if your 13
> yo only son plays World of Warcraft all day, every day....
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

alisonslp

Perhaps I need to look into that book... This is one sticking point
for me. As I've mentioned in previous posts, my children (6,6,3) have
not shown any interest in video games - even the pc games we have -
I'm sure it's coming, as most kids at some point get into them. I have
read alot of research showing how it is so bad for kids - the quick
pace action, the constant bombardment of lights/sounds, the hours
spent infront of the tv. Obviously, there is a whole other set of
research probably showing the opposite but until recently, I guess I
had brainwashed myself into thinking that the "no electronic games"
policy was best for kids. And it's a hard piece of thinking to change
when you have read the research about adhd and LD caused in large part
by too much tv and video games. However, given all the positives I
have already seen from lifting the arbitrary limits on TV time, food,
and bedtimes, how can videogames be any different?

Alison

Joanne

--- In [email protected], Heather <heather@...> wrote:
>>>> I didn't think til later to explain that since we homeschool, we
are together almost 24/7 and have plenty of conversation.>>>>

Good point Heather! That how I feel about "family sit-down dinners". We
don't need to catch up on our day-we've spent a good portion of it
together. We can have a family sit-down dinner if we WANT to but not
because we want to hear about each others days.

That book sounds interesting. I may check it out of the library.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
Adopted into our hearts October 2003
************************************
Unschooling Voices ~ Add Your Voice
www.foreverparents.com/UnschoolingVoices.html

Dawn Bennink

**** I didn't think til later to explain that since we homeschool, we are
together almost 24/7 and have plenty of conversation.

**** That how I feel about "family sit-down dinners".

Not long ago my boys saw one of the commercials for "the family table." My
6yo ds said, "We don't always sit down and have a family table dinner.
Daddy is working at dinner a lot. Does that mean we aren't close enough?
Does it mean we aren't doing something we should be doing?"

Before I had a chance to respond, his 10yo brother said (I paraphrase, but
pretty accurately), "Buddy, we are with Mommy and each other all day, every
day. We see Daddy whenever he's home, even during the day, 'cause we don't
go to school. We couldn't be much closer if we wanted to be. We aren't
doing anything wrong. Some families NEED the family table just to make sure
they talk to each other at least once a day. That's not us. If I saw you
any more than I do, I'd be totally sick of you. Some days I am."

Well, what else could I possibly add to that? Direct and to the point and
ending in requisite snarkiness, just so little brother doesn't think big
brother likes him TOO much. :oD

Dawn

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/3/2007 9:03:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

I still find it hard to believe that allowing kids full rein of
electronics for months on end will actually help them learn
self-control. Is there anyone that has seen the end result of it?

I sold our n64 because the boys were constantly fighting about using it.
<<<<<<<<<<<

Not sure what you mean by "end result". My boys are 10 and 13 and have
never had controls placed on them. I can tell you that working out solutions to
problems that arise is a valuable tool. At first when they would argue about
who played first or for how long, I would mediate a little, to first calm
the situation, then talk about what exactly each person wants. Then we would
start throwing out solutions for the problem until we hit on one that everyone
was happy with. So those types of "problems" can be worked out in a
mutually agreeable way. Now they are very good at working out agreeable solutions
without my help. It works for 2 boys and when the boys have friends over they
work out solutions that are agreeable to 3 or 4 boys.


I am not sure if I had removed the game system when a problem arose that
would have helped them learn problem solving tools. I am not a "gaming" person
myself. But dh is, and the game systems are a way for him to reconnect with
the boys at the end of his work day. So it has worked out in a very positive
way for our family as a whole as well as leading to lots of interesting
tangents for the boys.




Pam G

Our Blogs:
_http://gentlegull.blogspot.com/_ (http://gentlegull.blogspot.com/)
_http://ourgreenerpastures.blogspot.com/_
(http://ourgreenerpastures.blogspot.com/)




************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

Right, but my boys are 8 and 4 years old (twins). At that time they were
about 6 and 2 years old. It is very difficult to reason with two very
young children.

Another thing I find hard to accept about video games is the culture of
violence. It does not sit right to tell kids not to hit each other and
to be cooperative when you're playing Kill Stuff In A Good Story IV?
Isn't that a contradiction?

Mind I'm not totally against games. I enjoy them and I have learned a
lot from some of them. The DS has some good games that I *might*
consider. Anything in life can be either good or bad, it is just how
you use it. I just feel that its my role as a parent to be there and
help consider good choices. As we have limits on ourselves, so do they.

Someone mentioned is it right to give up something because it causes
grumpiness? If it made someone grumpy for my to pick my nose in front of
them, yes I would need to give that up to fit in with manners. It's
about compromising. That's a good thing to do with anyone in any
situation when the boundaries are healthy. :)
--Adrean

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrean Clark <adrean@...>

Another thing I find hard to accept about video games is the culture of
violence. It does not sit right to tell kids not to hit each other and
to be cooperative when you're playing Kill Stuff In A Good Story IV?
Isn't that a contradiction?

-=-=-=-=-

It's been almost a FULL DAY, and Deb Lewis hasn't yet commented on
violence?! She must be out of town! <G>

She'll be by shortly, I'm sure....

Duncan has a friend who was playing Nintendogs. He had 4-5 dogs, all
happy and well-cared for. He decided to starve one. He wanted to see
how far the game would go. He'd feed the other dogs in front of it. It
would beg and whine. It grew thinner and thinner. Weaker and weaker.
C-r-a-w-l-i-n-g along the floor. It did anything to get his attention.
It was so pathetic!

We moms were FREAKING OUT!

Now, Duncan *adores* his Nintendogs. He only keeps as many as he can
care for and got angry at Cameron's girlfriend, who played with his DS
and bought another dog---but then went home after the weekend, leaving
*her* new dog for Duncan to care for. "Doesn't she realize that a dog's
a big responsibility? That she can't just *get* one and then forget
about it?" So he's *very* attached to and cares a lot about his virtual
pets.

But he also realizes that these are just pixels.

Now...I don't really know what a "pixel" IS, but I do know that they
aren't real dogs. <g> Nevertheless, the boy who was starving his
virtual dog had my stomach in a knot.

He was experimenting with the GAME. He would *never* starve his own
REAL dogs! I guess I *know* that in my mind, but my heart was breaking
for this starving pup...uh...pixel.

I think many adults have a hard time understanding that these are
simply games---NO ONE is getting hurt---not a soul! Nor would these
children purposefully harm anyone IRL. But this a VIRTUAL world. Wild
and crazy things can be done in a virtual world---things none of these
children would ever *consider* doing in real life! They can be strong
super-heroes and super-villains. They can starve sweet, little pups.
They can save and destroy planets. It's a GAME! Absolutley NO violence
is being committed! Absolutely NO damage is being done!

On the other hand... <g>

When a parent trivializes what a child holds dear or throws away or
sells a child's game or denies a child time to play...then REAL damage
is being done to that child and that relationship.

The *parent* has the power over the child and is wielding it to suit
the parent. A child feels small and powerless. THAT's real damage! A
parent that spanks or pops or smacks or paddles or whips a
child---THAT's real violence!

What about the children that DO play violent games and then go out and
shoot up a school?

Do you think that those children were loved and accepted for Who They
Are by everyone close to them? Or do you think they were laughed at and
ridiculed and coerced and denied and trumped on a regular basis? Do you
think they were trusted and respected and treasted with kindness and
patience and generosity? Or do you think their parents wished they
could fix or change them---or just wish that they were *different*?

Columbine shooters don't get that way because they were allowed to play
video games. They get that way because the people who should have loved
them most didn't treat them with respect and kindness and accept that
Who They Are was good enough.

I've met almost all the kids whose parents write here regularly. Not an
axe-murderer among them! <G> Gentle, kind, thoughtful kids who love to
kill and starve pixels. <g>

Using Might over Right will get you short-term results. Using Right
over Might takes a little longer---more thought, more patience, more
work!---but it's a life-long relationship you're after, right?

Video games don't cause violent children. But children who are exposed
to real violence *very* often become violent.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Mind I'm not totally against games. I enjoy them and I have learned a
lot from some of them. The DS has some good games that I *might*
consider. Anything in life can be either good or bad, it is just how
you use it. I just feel that its my role as a parent to be there and
help consider good choices. As we have limits on ourselves, so do they.

-=-=-=-=-=-

What limits do you arbitrarily place on yourselves?

=-=-=-=-=-=-

Someone mentioned is it right to give up something because it causes
grumpiness? If it made someone grumpy for my to pick my nose in front
of
them, yes I would need to give that up to fit in with manners.
-=-=-=-==-

Picking your nose in public is considered bad manners in this society.
It doesn't matter whether it makes someone grumpy or not. What *YOU* do
cannot make *ME* grumpy. I get to *choose* how *I* feel about
everything. *YOU* are not responsible for *MY* feelings.

My mother used to say, "You make me embarrassed when you do ________."
Uh....No. I can't *make* her be embarrassed. *She* gets to make the
decision whether to be embarrassed or not.

Playing video games doesn't *make* someone else feel grumpy. There's
something *else* going on there. There are other options than simply
limited gaming time.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com

Joyce Fetteroll

> Another thing I find hard to accept about video games is the
> culture of
> violence. It does not sit right to tell kids not to hit each other and
> to be cooperative when you're playing Kill Stuff In A Good Story IV?
> Isn't that a contradiction?
>
It would seem that way. But kids *know* the difference between
pretend and real.

Pretend is how we play out real life. It's also how we play out
things we *don't* want to do in real life. It's a way of exploring
what life would be like with different rules. But playing doesn't
make the rules change in real life. Kids *know* that. They *know*
they'd have to give up the peaceful, loving home they have to live in
a world where people shoot each other. (Kids who are drawn to
violence *don't* have that.) And they find it utterly baffling that
*we* are the ones getting fantasy and reality confused!

Please please do read at:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

under the headings on the left (video games, TV) and right
(Influencing child behavior). It's a question that comes up a lot.

Here's some specific pages:

http://tinyurl.com/39qde8
http://tinyurl.com/33rewq
http://tinyurl.com/2r3gaf
http://tinyurl.com/2pb4zd

There's just so much baggage in between what we've been told is right
about kids and what happens when kids are treated as whole human
beings. Very few people in society know what respected children are
like. They only know what controlled (and neglected) children are
like. All the advice society hands out is about controlled and
neglected children, not respected children. So a lot of what we say
doesn't make sense. Our advantage is that we *have* respected
children so we know how they behave. And since we've discussed this
so much, because we trust ourselves to see our kids as who they are
rather than filtered through society's vision of them, we know why
they're different.

> I just feel that its my role as a parent to be there and
> help consider good choices
>
As do we. The difference is that we're here as a resource. We don't
pressure them into a particular choice. We're there to help them
problem solve the consequences. (Quite often doing things
"wrong" (but really unconventionally!) is a more powerful way to
learn than doing things right.)

The difference is that so much of what society fears will cause harm
to kids we know from experience just isn't true.

Control and lost (parent) trust has caused much more damage than
video games ever will.

> As we have limits on ourselves, so do they.
>
There are real limits. (We can't fly.)

There are limits we *choose* to abide by. (Stop signs and speed limits)

There are limits we *choose* to impose on ourselves. (Just 15 minutes
of email before getting dressed.)

But the limits we *choose* to impose on others are in an entirely
different category.

Doesn't your husband deciding to limit you to 15 minutes of reading a
day feel different than the Stop sign at the end of the street?

> Someone mentioned is it right to give up something because it causes
> grumpiness? If it made someone grumpy for my to pick my nose in
> front of
> them, yes I would need to give that up to fit in with manners. It's
> about compromising.
>
The big difference is that you make that *choice*. You decide that
it's more important to you to maintain the relationship than to pick
your nose.

Deciding for someone else that they need to stop picking their nose
is control, not choice. They can say "That's gross!" You get to
decide what to do about it.

Part of our role is to help our kids see where they're stepping on
others toes while trying to get something they want. (Like trying to
get that booger in public ;-) Conventional parenting says we need to
make them adhere to the rules. We need to make them "compromise". (It
isn't a compromise if it's forced or coerced.)

Our older kids are respectful because they haven't been made to be
respectful. They're respectful of others because who they are in the
right now has been treated with respect.

Joyce

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/4/2007 8:45:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Right, but my boys are 8 and 4 years old (twins). At that time they were
about 6 and 2 years old. It is very difficult to reason with two very
young children.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,
I guess for us it isn't about reasoning with children it is about helping
them work through difficult situations and learn skills that will help them
throughout their lifetime. Finding solutions can be done with younger children,
I know...I did it, it can be more difficult with limited communication
skills and attention span etc. But that is something that we have done their
whole lives, it is just a part of how we live.


>>>>Another thing I find hard to accept about video games is the culture of
violence. It does not sit right to tell kids not to hit each other and
to be cooperative when you're playing Kill Stuff In A Good Story IV?
Isn't that a contradiction?<<<<<
I personally don't tell my kids not to hit. We work out solutions to the
problems at hand. But that is another topic. I also have seen my children
grow with TV and video games and they are not drawn to things that are too
violent or scary for them. And they do know what is pretend and what is real. My
boys still, at 10 and 13, do not like some of the video games where you are
killing "people", I think it looks too real to them and they just don't like
watching it. They do like shooting aliens and things though. My boys are
very in tune with their feelings.


>>>> I just feel that its my role as a parent to be there and
help consider good choices. As we have limits on ourselves, so do they<<<<<

I also feel it is my role to help my children when they want it. They will
often ask my opinion. We talk about video games and TV a lot. But I don't
choose to limit my children. They limit themselves. I personally just don't
feel it is my role to place limits on another person based on my thoughts and
feelings (taking theirs into account). My feeling is that other people can
choose to limit themselves taking my thoughts and feelings into account if
they wish. And also I can choose to limit myself taking other's thoughts and
feelings into account. Just a different way of looking at things I guess.

Pam G

Our Blogs:
_http://gentlegull.blogspot.com/_ (http://gentlegull.blogspot.com/)
_http://ourgreenerpastures.blogspot.com/_
(http://ourgreenerpastures.blogspot.com/)




************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 09:04 11/4/2007, Kelly wrote:
>Duncan has a friend who was playing Nintendogs. He had 4-5 dogs, all
>happy and well-cared for. He decided to starve one. He wanted to see
>how far the game would go. He'd feed the other dogs in front of it. It
>would beg and whine. It grew thinner and thinner. Weaker and weaker.
>C-r-a-w-l-i-n-g along the floor. It did anything to get his attention.
>It was so pathetic!

And the animal precinct virtual Nintend-cops didn't come and haul his
sorry ass down to the station?! What a world!!



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