my problem with people
vermontones
I seem to be having a problem with people lately. I volunteered
At my daughters school(my oldest daughter attends public school-
divorce situation)I volunteered my time to cut strawberries for a
strawberry shortcake fund raiser. There were 10 women there coring
strawberries which gave them too much time and freedom to talk. All
they could talk about was either how much they hated all the work
that went in to the sixth grade fundraisers or what their child was
doing in school. I might add that a few of the parents were teachers
and some were the die hard volunteers(nose into everything). The
women next to me says to me, "Your going to have your hands full when
your three boys(who are close in age) come to school. I
responded, "no I won't, I'm homeschooling them". The teachers heads
shot up and more than one parent looked at me like I was out of my
mind. No one said anything negative, but the uncomfortable silence
hung there until someone uncomfortabley said that they knew someone
who was a homeschooler.
Another example would be today at our town's parade. The kids
were all playing on the playground and a tidy line formed infront of
the climbing wall. My son who is used to playing at the playground
when the others are in school didn't even notice the line. He cut
right in front and some women said to him in not a nice voice, "You
can't cut in line, go to the back". I let it go and made my
prescence known by bending down to talk to him about the difference
between when we are here alone and when there are alot of people. We
must wait in line if we would like a turn (ack!). Well, he waits for
his turn, climbs the wall and goes down the slide. In his excitement
to do it again he cuts the line. This women bends down to him,
sticks his finger in his face and yells at him to get to the back of
the line. I stepped directly between them, looked her straight in
they eye and said, "I can take care of this", not nicely. She
stomped away yelling, "well I didn't think anyone was watching him,
because he's done it like six times now". It was al I could do not
to go after her, because I really felt like she was wronging my
child. She was lying about the amount of times he "cut" for dramatic
affect and it royally pissed me off.
I know this is long winded, but my question is really a simple
one. Why, since I've learned so much about unschooling, do I find it
so hard to relate to non-unschoolers? I find the trivial talk about
grades and the position these parents are putting their kids in to be
mournfull, really; conform, stand in line, don't break the rules even
if your super excited, anyone who doesn't follow the rules is bad and
you should make a big fuss, those that are different than we are we
should be weary of, etc. I have been finding myself less and less
tolerable of people doing what they do and say to their children.
When we left the parade I said maybe I don't belong at social
functions anymore.
I would never hide my kids away, but I need to find a balance of
acceptance or I'm going to lose it.
AnnMarie
At my daughters school(my oldest daughter attends public school-
divorce situation)I volunteered my time to cut strawberries for a
strawberry shortcake fund raiser. There were 10 women there coring
strawberries which gave them too much time and freedom to talk. All
they could talk about was either how much they hated all the work
that went in to the sixth grade fundraisers or what their child was
doing in school. I might add that a few of the parents were teachers
and some were the die hard volunteers(nose into everything). The
women next to me says to me, "Your going to have your hands full when
your three boys(who are close in age) come to school. I
responded, "no I won't, I'm homeschooling them". The teachers heads
shot up and more than one parent looked at me like I was out of my
mind. No one said anything negative, but the uncomfortable silence
hung there until someone uncomfortabley said that they knew someone
who was a homeschooler.
Another example would be today at our town's parade. The kids
were all playing on the playground and a tidy line formed infront of
the climbing wall. My son who is used to playing at the playground
when the others are in school didn't even notice the line. He cut
right in front and some women said to him in not a nice voice, "You
can't cut in line, go to the back". I let it go and made my
prescence known by bending down to talk to him about the difference
between when we are here alone and when there are alot of people. We
must wait in line if we would like a turn (ack!). Well, he waits for
his turn, climbs the wall and goes down the slide. In his excitement
to do it again he cuts the line. This women bends down to him,
sticks his finger in his face and yells at him to get to the back of
the line. I stepped directly between them, looked her straight in
they eye and said, "I can take care of this", not nicely. She
stomped away yelling, "well I didn't think anyone was watching him,
because he's done it like six times now". It was al I could do not
to go after her, because I really felt like she was wronging my
child. She was lying about the amount of times he "cut" for dramatic
affect and it royally pissed me off.
I know this is long winded, but my question is really a simple
one. Why, since I've learned so much about unschooling, do I find it
so hard to relate to non-unschoolers? I find the trivial talk about
grades and the position these parents are putting their kids in to be
mournfull, really; conform, stand in line, don't break the rules even
if your super excited, anyone who doesn't follow the rules is bad and
you should make a big fuss, those that are different than we are we
should be weary of, etc. I have been finding myself less and less
tolerable of people doing what they do and say to their children.
When we left the parade I said maybe I don't belong at social
functions anymore.
I would never hide my kids away, but I need to find a balance of
acceptance or I'm going to lose it.
AnnMarie
Robyn Coburn
<<< I seem to be having a problem with people lately. I volunteered
At my daughters school(my oldest daughter attends public school-
divorce situation)I volunteered my time to cut strawberries for a
strawberry shortcake fund raiser. There were 10 women there coring
strawberries which gave them too much time and freedom to talk. All
they could talk about was either how much they hated all the work
that went in to the sixth grade fundraisers or what their child was
doing in school.>>>
I don't do school conversations with anyone. I also don't get involved in
curriculum/coercion discussions with the school-at-homers in my local group.
I do this for my own peace of mind, and because school bashing is an
emotional sink hole - not to mention like shooting fish in a barrel. I find
it emotionally draining, and I need my attention and spirit for my family,
and to an extent, my online activities. This is just me - other people are
either more generous or more spiritually secure.
Realizing that your daughter is in a unique situation compared to most
unschooling families, why do you still have to volunteer at her school? Can
you meet what may be an obligation (my mother never did anything at my
schools when I was a kid - is it mandatory now?) through some other means -
donating goods or money instead of your valuable time and spirit?
<<<I stepped directly between them, looked her straight in
they eye and said, "I can take care of this", not nicely. She
stomped away yelling, "well I didn't think anyone was watching him,
because he's done it like six times now". It was al I could do not
to go after her, because I really felt like she was wronging my
child. She was lying about the amount of times he "cut" for dramatic
affect and it royally pissed me off.>>>
You go girl! You're a hero, and good for you. She was exaggerating, and I
bet she is one of those parents who constantly mediates the interactions of
her children with other kids also.
<<<<I know this is long winded, but my question is really a simple
one. Why, since I've learned so much about unschooling, do I find it
so hard to relate to non-unschoolers?>>>>
Boy, did you say a mouthful! I agree that this is tough. (Come to the
Conference - be freed at least for a weekend!)
One part of my journey is coming to the shameful realization that I put
undue status on to what other people think. I have to check myself a lot. Am
I about to say something Jayn because I sense some stranger's mere
disapproval? Or is Jayn actually being genuinely obnoxious and needing an
alternative suggestion (or experiencing some other unmet need)? My dh is so
great at not caring what a bunch of strangers think - especially those
people who will be completely unaffected in any real way by our actions.
It has been energizing to me to be encouraged to see how foolish other
people are about restricting their children's freedoms. I am learning, even
in homeschooling circles, to just allow Jayn to do her thing, when it is
safe and fair. And my definition of "safe" is also extending beyond the
comfort levels of many parents. I try to encourage the kids, say at the
park, to reach a consensus of what is fair - but this is harder (impossible)
when a bunch of parents jump in with their instructions and orders.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
At my daughters school(my oldest daughter attends public school-
divorce situation)I volunteered my time to cut strawberries for a
strawberry shortcake fund raiser. There were 10 women there coring
strawberries which gave them too much time and freedom to talk. All
they could talk about was either how much they hated all the work
that went in to the sixth grade fundraisers or what their child was
doing in school.>>>
I don't do school conversations with anyone. I also don't get involved in
curriculum/coercion discussions with the school-at-homers in my local group.
I do this for my own peace of mind, and because school bashing is an
emotional sink hole - not to mention like shooting fish in a barrel. I find
it emotionally draining, and I need my attention and spirit for my family,
and to an extent, my online activities. This is just me - other people are
either more generous or more spiritually secure.
Realizing that your daughter is in a unique situation compared to most
unschooling families, why do you still have to volunteer at her school? Can
you meet what may be an obligation (my mother never did anything at my
schools when I was a kid - is it mandatory now?) through some other means -
donating goods or money instead of your valuable time and spirit?
<<<I stepped directly between them, looked her straight in
they eye and said, "I can take care of this", not nicely. She
stomped away yelling, "well I didn't think anyone was watching him,
because he's done it like six times now". It was al I could do not
to go after her, because I really felt like she was wronging my
child. She was lying about the amount of times he "cut" for dramatic
affect and it royally pissed me off.>>>
You go girl! You're a hero, and good for you. She was exaggerating, and I
bet she is one of those parents who constantly mediates the interactions of
her children with other kids also.
<<<<I know this is long winded, but my question is really a simple
one. Why, since I've learned so much about unschooling, do I find it
so hard to relate to non-unschoolers?>>>>
Boy, did you say a mouthful! I agree that this is tough. (Come to the
Conference - be freed at least for a weekend!)
One part of my journey is coming to the shameful realization that I put
undue status on to what other people think. I have to check myself a lot. Am
I about to say something Jayn because I sense some stranger's mere
disapproval? Or is Jayn actually being genuinely obnoxious and needing an
alternative suggestion (or experiencing some other unmet need)? My dh is so
great at not caring what a bunch of strangers think - especially those
people who will be completely unaffected in any real way by our actions.
It has been energizing to me to be encouraged to see how foolish other
people are about restricting their children's freedoms. I am learning, even
in homeschooling circles, to just allow Jayn to do her thing, when it is
safe and fair. And my definition of "safe" is also extending beyond the
comfort levels of many parents. I try to encourage the kids, say at the
park, to reach a consensus of what is fair - but this is harder (impossible)
when a bunch of parents jump in with their instructions and orders.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
Tina
"Why, since I've learned so much about unschooling, do I find it
so hard to relate to non-unschoolers? I find the trivial talk about
grades and the position these parents are putting their kids in to be
mournfull, really; conform, stand in line, don't break the rules even
if your super excited, anyone who doesn't follow the rules is bad and
you should make a big fuss, those that are different than we are we
should be weary of, etc. I have been finding myself less and less
tolerable of people doing what they do and say to their children."
Short answer - Because you are educated and experienced, and you know
more about really living than those around you.
I can totally relate. Due to the fact that we have a combination of
educational styles within our own home I face these struggles
everyday. I want to say so bad, "QUIT SCHOOL!" I have learned so
much about education and living that I just want to scream it to the
other kids, but I can't. I just take their sides, make observations,
don't worry about grades and try to help them have fun. Basically,
keep the pressure off or at least to a minimum.
Like someone else mentioned, I don't talk to others
about "education." I try to choose my words wisely and keep my mouth
shut more than I've been used to in the past. It's not always easy,
but it's easier than getting involved with a philisophical debate.
You go girl! You did awesome in the examples that you shared. You
handled the situation on the play ground beautifully! Way to go...
Tina
so hard to relate to non-unschoolers? I find the trivial talk about
grades and the position these parents are putting their kids in to be
mournfull, really; conform, stand in line, don't break the rules even
if your super excited, anyone who doesn't follow the rules is bad and
you should make a big fuss, those that are different than we are we
should be weary of, etc. I have been finding myself less and less
tolerable of people doing what they do and say to their children."
Short answer - Because you are educated and experienced, and you know
more about really living than those around you.
I can totally relate. Due to the fact that we have a combination of
educational styles within our own home I face these struggles
everyday. I want to say so bad, "QUIT SCHOOL!" I have learned so
much about education and living that I just want to scream it to the
other kids, but I can't. I just take their sides, make observations,
don't worry about grades and try to help them have fun. Basically,
keep the pressure off or at least to a minimum.
Like someone else mentioned, I don't talk to others
about "education." I try to choose my words wisely and keep my mouth
shut more than I've been used to in the past. It's not always easy,
but it's easier than getting involved with a philisophical debate.
You go girl! You did awesome in the examples that you shared. You
handled the situation on the play ground beautifully! Way to go...
Tina
G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
>>Canyou meet what may be an obligation (my mother never did anything at my
schools when I was a kid - is it mandatory now?) through some other means -
donating goods or money instead of your valuable time and spirit? >>>
Yes! I didn't realize how strenuous volunteering would be on me. I have
made a pact to donate money or materials from now on. I find it so hard to
find anything to say to these people, because their lives are about SCHOOL
and mine is everything but school. I guess it surprised me just how strong
my feelings were and being the only one there with those feelings made it
worse. I internalized instead of speaking out and that puts a lot of stress
on me I guess.
>> You go girl! You're a hero, and good for you. She was exaggerating, andI
bet she is one of those parents who constantly mediates the interactions of
her children with other kids also.>>>
You should have seen this women. She had all those kids lined up and
standing at attention for gods sake. The funny part was that when her
daughter took the turn that she was apparently being robbed of by my son.
The girl couldn't climb the wall. It's as if she had never been to a
playground in her life. It was clear that it was a novelty thing not
something they did on any kind of regular basis. I felt so sad for her.
She kept looking back at her mom as if to ask if she was doing it right.
The girls was supposed to be playing, but she can't do it without approval
from mom. geesh that bugs me.
I am not the type to lash out at someone especially in front of children,
but I kept my composure with an edge of sternness in my voice so she got the
picture and the kids didn't seem fazed.
>>>(Come to theConference - be freed at least for a weekend!)>>>
I wanted to come so badly this year, but it isn't working out. I have been
searching, without much luck, for an Unschooling support group where I live,
but haven't had much luck. I would love to go to the park with families who
think like I do, what a relief that would be.
Thanks for your comments, it made me feel better about the situation I'm in.
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Robyn Coburn [mailto:dezigna@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 5:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] my problem with people
<<< I seem to be having a problem with people lately. I volunteered
At my daughters school(my oldest daughter attends public school-
divorce situation)I volunteered my time to cut strawberries for a
strawberry shortcake fund raiser. There were 10 women there coring
strawberries which gave them too much time and freedom to talk. All
they could talk about was either how much they hated all the work
that went in to the sixth grade fundraisers or what their child was
doing in school.>>>
I don't do school conversations with anyone. I also don't get involved in
curriculum/coercion discussions with the school-at-homers in my local group.
I do this for my own peace of mind, and because school bashing is an
emotional sink hole - not to mention like shooting fish in a barrel. I find
it emotionally draining, and I need my attention and spirit for my family,
and to an extent, my online activities. This is just me - other people are
either more generous or more spiritually secure.
Realizing that your daughter is in a unique situation compared to most
unschooling families, why do you still have to volunteer at her school? Can
you meet what may be an obligation (my mother never did anything at my
schools when I was a kid - is it mandatory now?) through some other means -
donating goods or money instead of your valuable time and spirit?
<<<I stepped directly between them, looked her straight in
they eye and said, "I can take care of this", not nicely. She
stomped away yelling, "well I didn't think anyone was watching him,
because he's done it like six times now". It was al I could do not
to go after her, because I really felt like she was wronging my
child. She was lying about the amount of times he "cut" for dramatic
affect and it royally pissed me off.>>>
You go girl! You're a hero, and good for you. She was exaggerating, and I
bet she is one of those parents who constantly mediates the interactions of
her children with other kids also.
<<<<I know this is long winded, but my question is really a simple
one. Why, since I've learned so much about unschooling, do I find it
so hard to relate to non-unschoolers?>>>>
Boy, did you say a mouthful! I agree that this is tough. (Come to the
Conference - be freed at least for a weekend!)
One part of my journey is coming to the shameful realization that I put
undue status on to what other people think. I have to check myself a lot. Am
I about to say something Jayn because I sense some stranger's mere
disapproval? Or is Jayn actually being genuinely obnoxious and needing an
alternative suggestion (or experiencing some other unmet need)? My dh is so
great at not caring what a bunch of strangers think - especially those
people who will be completely unaffected in any real way by our actions.
It has been energizing to me to be encouraged to see how foolish other
people are about restricting their children's freedoms. I am learning, even
in homeschooling circles, to just allow Jayn to do her thing, when it is
safe and fair. And my definition of "safe" is also extending beyond the
comfort levels of many parents. I try to encourage the kids, say at the
park, to reach a consensus of what is fair - but this is harder (impossible)
when a bunch of parents jump in with their instructions and orders.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
Yahoo! Groups Links
G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
>>>Like someone else mentioned, I don't talk to othersabout "education." I try to choose my words wisely and keep my mouth
shut more than I've been used to in the past. It's not always easy,
but it's easier than getting involved with a philisophical debate.>>>
I'm finding it a little lonely to be quite honest. Like I'm isolating
myself due to my beliefs. I know that keeping my mouth shut is the best
thing to do, because they are not ready to hear what I have to say. I
certainly know that these specific parents are not going to agree, so why
bother.
I had to finish that volunteering job tonight. The kids were selling
the strawberry shortcake, which they didn't make or even think up the idea
for. Parents couldn't help but turn it in to a math lesson,(counting out
money) and a bolstering self esteem event,(forcing kids to talk to people
and be aggressive sellers). One of the moms was so pushy she was making her
daughter cry. I finally couldn't stand it anymore and took over the
register and I don't care one bit if they liked it or not. You can't tell
me those girls were learning anything by crying....
If any of you have any doubts about Unschooling and are thinking of trying
public school; this is public school and it quite frankly sucks!
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Tina [mailto:zoocrew@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 7:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: my problem with people
"Why, since I've learned so much about unschooling, do I find it
so hard to relate to non-unschoolers? I find the trivial talk about
grades and the position these parents are putting their kids in to be
mournfull, really; conform, stand in line, don't break the rules even
if your super excited, anyone who doesn't follow the rules is bad and
you should make a big fuss, those that are different than we are we
should be weary of, etc. I have been finding myself less and less
tolerable of people doing what they do and say to their children."
Short answer - Because you are educated and experienced, and you know
more about really living than those around you.
I can totally relate. Due to the fact that we have a combination of
educational styles within our own home I face these struggles
everyday. I want to say so bad, "QUIT SCHOOL!" I have learned so
much about education and living that I just want to scream it to the
other kids, but I can't. I just take their sides, make observations,
don't worry about grades and try to help them have fun. Basically,
keep the pressure off or at least to a minimum.
Like someone else mentioned, I don't talk to others
about "education." I try to choose my words wisely and keep my mouth
shut more than I've been used to in the past. It's not always easy,
but it's easier than getting involved with a philisophical debate.
You go girl! You did awesome in the examples that you shared. You
handled the situation on the play ground beautifully! Way to go...
Tina
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/2004 4:33:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
gmcontractinginc@... writes:
answer...i've had to let go of alot of it especially since my kids are growing up
{19..18,,15,,11,,}they have to figure out these things sometimes...as far as a
youngin as your son,,,you may have to explain to him that some-people
forget how it feels to be excited just to be able to play ,,and maybe if he could
,,get back in line ...as far as the busy--bodies at the strawberry
function....you will meet them everywhere,,,all you can do is what is best for your
kids,,,,to heck with the rest of them.,.,.,.,.,.
June
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gmcontractinginc@... writes:
> talk aboutsome of it is a very normal mommy instinct,,to protect..dont have a good
> grades and the position these parents are putting their kids in to be
> mournfull, really; conform, stand in line, don't break the rules even
> if your super excited, anyone who doesn't follow the rules is bad and
> you should make a big fuss, those that are different than we are we
> should be weary of, etc. I have been finding myself less and less
> tolerable of people doing what they do and say to their children.
> When we left the parade I said maybe I don't belong at social
> functions anymore.
> I would never hide my kids away, but I need to find a balance of
> acceptance or I'm going to lose it.
>
> AnnMarie
>
>
answer...i've had to let go of alot of it especially since my kids are growing up
{19..18,,15,,11,,}they have to figure out these things sometimes...as far as a
youngin as your son,,,you may have to explain to him that some-people
forget how it feels to be excited just to be able to play ,,and maybe if he could
,,get back in line ...as far as the busy--bodies at the strawberry
function....you will meet them everywhere,,,all you can do is what is best for your
kids,,,,to heck with the rest of them.,.,.,.,.,.
June
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kimberly
> I would never hide my kids away, but I need to find a balance ofYou sound really frustrated. Could it be because others have not YET
> acceptance or I'm going to lose it.
>
> AnnMarie
found the truth to what you already know? I know I get upset with
others when I see them putting silly restictions on kids simply
because it makes their lives easier. I now find myself trying very
hard to hold my tonge about such things. Then I ask myself what
holding my tonge really does other then pen up the anger. What would
happen if I did vent to these people? What if I showed them my upset?
I would feel better I think. Would they? Chances are maybe no, but
maybe I would tell them about unschooling or peaceful parenting and
they would get a bug in their butt, for those same parents want to do
what is best in others eyes, and so they would look those things up,
and maybe.... just maybe, Change!
So maybe next time open up, and vent to them your frustration!
Blessings,
Kimmy
P.S. I know many homeschooling groups that go into hidding durring the
summer months! Some find new places to visit where other kids are not
as likely to be, make more private play dates, some even go to public
parks with the kids late at night! Is there a law that my child can
not go bug hunting at 2am? LOL She is up anyway!
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/5/2004 11:00:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Kontessa_Rose@... writes:
P.S. I know many homeschooling groups that go into hidding durring the
summer months! Some find new places to visit where other kids are not
as likely to be, make more private play dates, some even go to public
parks with the kids late at night!<<<<<<
I just don't LIKE to go out in the summer. Too many kids out and about! <g>
I much prefer when school's IN so that we can have OUR library, OUR zoo, OUR
museum all to ourselves!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kontessa_Rose@... writes:
P.S. I know many homeschooling groups that go into hidding durring the
summer months! Some find new places to visit where other kids are not
as likely to be, make more private play dates, some even go to public
parks with the kids late at night!<<<<<<
I just don't LIKE to go out in the summer. Too many kids out and about! <g>
I much prefer when school's IN so that we can have OUR library, OUR zoo, OUR
museum all to ourselves!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Jul 4, 2004, at 2:08 PM, vermontones wrote:
things - like soccer parties, and other get-togethers where I'm hanging
around mostly with parents of schooled kids. Now I'm quiet and mostly
listen. And I do NOT have much fun. They're often sad affairs, for me.
I feel like I'm putting in my time. I don't engage with them - so I
don't have conflict - they like me fine and I'm sure few would realize
how sad I am, underneath.
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
> I have been finding myself less and lessI happens. I used to be the life of the party at those school-moms
> tolerable of people doing what they do and say to their children.
> When we left the parade I said maybe I don't belong at social
> functions anymore.
> I would never hide my kids away, but I need to find a balance of
> acceptance or I'm going to lose it.
things - like soccer parties, and other get-togethers where I'm hanging
around mostly with parents of schooled kids. Now I'm quiet and mostly
listen. And I do NOT have much fun. They're often sad affairs, for me.
I feel like I'm putting in my time. I don't engage with them - so I
don't have conflict - they like me fine and I'm sure few would realize
how sad I am, underneath.
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
pam sorooshian
On Jul 4, 2004, at 2:47 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
trails, natural environment, very cool place.
Near the exit there is a short stone wall - big wide flat stones on top
and the wall starts out only a few inches tall and gradually gets up to
about a foot and a half tall. Not too tall. It divides a grassy area
from a sidewalk.
I'd been standing on the sidewalk, then walked up onto the grass, and
then had walked on the wall - for no reason - just standing around,
something to do. The place is beautiful.
A group of kids came by - they'd been walking out on the trail as a
daycare field trip - they were about 8 years old and all boys.
I backed away from the wall as they came along the sidewalk TO GIVE
THEM ROOM to walk on the wall - because they'd just have to - it is
compelling! <G> Every kid and lots of adults who come by that little
walkway always walk on that wall. My girls have been walking on that
wall since they could just barely walk.
The daycare leaders BARKED at them - "GET OFF OF THERE. You know better
than that. It isn't there to walk on. Get back in line." The boys got
back into single file line, not talking, and marched on.
I just about cried - it was truly one of the saddest things I'd ever
seen.
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
> It has been energizing to me to be encouraged to see how foolish otherI was at a nature center last week - it is in a city park but has
> people are about restricting their children's freedoms.
trails, natural environment, very cool place.
Near the exit there is a short stone wall - big wide flat stones on top
and the wall starts out only a few inches tall and gradually gets up to
about a foot and a half tall. Not too tall. It divides a grassy area
from a sidewalk.
I'd been standing on the sidewalk, then walked up onto the grass, and
then had walked on the wall - for no reason - just standing around,
something to do. The place is beautiful.
A group of kids came by - they'd been walking out on the trail as a
daycare field trip - they were about 8 years old and all boys.
I backed away from the wall as they came along the sidewalk TO GIVE
THEM ROOM to walk on the wall - because they'd just have to - it is
compelling! <G> Every kid and lots of adults who come by that little
walkway always walk on that wall. My girls have been walking on that
wall since they could just barely walk.
The daycare leaders BARKED at them - "GET OFF OF THERE. You know better
than that. It isn't there to walk on. Get back in line." The boys got
back into single file line, not talking, and marched on.
I just about cried - it was truly one of the saddest things I'd ever
seen.
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
Alyce
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
line. One day at the community college, Jay climbed just a short
way up one of the trees. I was fine with it. But an
administrator/teacher/something... came by and yelled at him to get
down. I assumed it had something to do with liability? You might
know, Pam. What's up with that? Now I'm never sure when we're out
if a wall or tree is "ok" or if someone is going to come by and
holler at us. Amazing how a single incident will make you
paranoid. I will need to make sure I'm very conscious about these
things... and not succumb to my knee jerk "someone is going to yell
at us" reaction. See now I'm feeling a mite crappy because I know
that since then there have been several instances where I've
disallowed his climbing in a public place due to fear of getting in
trouble. I just hate when strangers take it upon themselves to
fuss. And they do.
Talk about MY problem with people. I really don't like most
people. lol. Thank god there's a group near us where there are
people I do like. I really should check my attitude though when
dealing with folks outside the group... but honestly, when I give
the benefit of the doubt, they seldom fail to disappoint me.
lol.
Alyce
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>other
> On Jul 4, 2004, at 2:47 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
>
> > It has been energizing to me to be encouraged to see how foolish
> > people are about restricting their children's freedoms.on top
>
> I was at a nature center last week - it is in a city park but has
> trails, natural environment, very cool place.
>
> Near the exit there is a short stone wall - big wide flat stones
> and the wall starts out only a few inches tall and gradually getsup to
> about a foot and a half tall. Not too tall. It divides a grassyarea
> from a sidewalk.and
>
> I'd been standing on the sidewalk, then walked up onto the grass,
> then had walked on the wall - for no reason - just standingaround,
> something to do. The place is beautiful.a
>
> A group of kids came by - they'd been walking out on the trail as
> daycare field trip - they were about 8 years old and all boys.GIVE
>
> I backed away from the wall as they came along the sidewalk TO
> THEM ROOM to walk on the wall - because they'd just have to - itis
> compelling! <G> Every kid and lots of adults who come by thatlittle
> walkway always walk on that wall. My girls have been walking onthat
> wall since they could just barely walk.better
>
> The daycare leaders BARKED at them - "GET OFF OF THERE. You know
> than that. It isn't there to walk on. Get back in line." The boysgot
> back into single file line, not talking, and marched on.ever
>
> I just about cried - it was truly one of the saddest things I'd
> seen.Ack. You know, sometimes I don't know exactly where to draw the
>
> -pam
>
> When I think back
> On all the crap I learned in high school
> It's a wonder
> I can think at all
> ~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
line. One day at the community college, Jay climbed just a short
way up one of the trees. I was fine with it. But an
administrator/teacher/something... came by and yelled at him to get
down. I assumed it had something to do with liability? You might
know, Pam. What's up with that? Now I'm never sure when we're out
if a wall or tree is "ok" or if someone is going to come by and
holler at us. Amazing how a single incident will make you
paranoid. I will need to make sure I'm very conscious about these
things... and not succumb to my knee jerk "someone is going to yell
at us" reaction. See now I'm feeling a mite crappy because I know
that since then there have been several instances where I've
disallowed his climbing in a public place due to fear of getting in
trouble. I just hate when strangers take it upon themselves to
fuss. And they do.
Talk about MY problem with people. I really don't like most
people. lol. Thank god there's a group near us where there are
people I do like. I really should check my attitude though when
dealing with folks outside the group... but honestly, when I give
the benefit of the doubt, they seldom fail to disappoint me.
lol.
Alyce
Alyce
--- In [email protected], "vermontones"
<gmcontractinginc@v...> wrote:
with such a wall. NOBODY was there except the employees. I mean at
the climbing wall. There were a few kids here and there. Anyway,
we went to the wall. My son ran up and started climbing at what was
apparently the Exit end of the wall. The guy manning the thing
said, "Start on this end." I looked at him and asked, "Why?" He
says, "That's the rules." I said, "But there's nobody here..." I
understand why they would form a line when many are waiting so that
everyone gets a turn... but for the love of Pete... when there is
nobody there, what difference does it make where you go on the
wall? He ended up unable to answer my "whys" so just clammed up and
let us go on with our unconventional climb. I saw no reason to pull
my son off the wall - he entered at the "proper entrance" just ran
to the farther end to start climbing. And he wanted to climb up not
across as were the rules. Jeez Louise.
:) Alyce
<gmcontractinginc@v...> wrote:
> Another example would be today at our town's parade. The kidsof
> were all playing on the playground and a tidy line formed infront
> the climbing wall. My son who is used to playing at theplayground
> when the others are in school didn't even notice the line. He cutvoice, "You
> right in front and some women said to him in not a nice
> can't cut in line, go to the back".I have a climbing wall story. One day I took my kids to a place
with such a wall. NOBODY was there except the employees. I mean at
the climbing wall. There were a few kids here and there. Anyway,
we went to the wall. My son ran up and started climbing at what was
apparently the Exit end of the wall. The guy manning the thing
said, "Start on this end." I looked at him and asked, "Why?" He
says, "That's the rules." I said, "But there's nobody here..." I
understand why they would form a line when many are waiting so that
everyone gets a turn... but for the love of Pete... when there is
nobody there, what difference does it make where you go on the
wall? He ended up unable to answer my "whys" so just clammed up and
let us go on with our unconventional climb. I saw no reason to pull
my son off the wall - he entered at the "proper entrance" just ran
to the farther end to start climbing. And he wanted to climb up not
across as were the rules. Jeez Louise.
:) Alyce
Valerie
I know I get upset with others when I see them putting silly
restictions on kids simply because it makes their lives easier.
Kimmy
*****This is something that amazes me about traditional parenting.
It DOESN'T make their lives easier. They spend all of their time
enforcing the restrictions rather than enjoying life with their
children.
When Laurie was younger and we were around other parents/children, I
had to watch that I didn't have an air of superiority about how they
were 'handling' their children. I was very uncomfortable around most
parents because of their parenting choices. By the time Laurie was
four or so years old I had a whole new set of childless friends. I
didn't want to spend any more time and energy watching them exhaust
themselves while making their children miserable. I never was able
to locate any other gentle parents in our area. :-(
love, Valerie
restictions on kids simply because it makes their lives easier.
Kimmy
*****This is something that amazes me about traditional parenting.
It DOESN'T make their lives easier. They spend all of their time
enforcing the restrictions rather than enjoying life with their
children.
When Laurie was younger and we were around other parents/children, I
had to watch that I didn't have an air of superiority about how they
were 'handling' their children. I was very uncomfortable around most
parents because of their parenting choices. By the time Laurie was
four or so years old I had a whole new set of childless friends. I
didn't want to spend any more time and energy watching them exhaust
themselves while making their children miserable. I never was able
to locate any other gentle parents in our area. :-(
love, Valerie
G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
>>Could it be because others have not YETfound the truth to what you already know? >>>
YES! that's exactly it. This is what feels so isolating to me, like I have
all this information and no one to share it with. These people seem so
comfortable with there decisions. One time a women asked me if I thought
preschool was a good idea for her child and I said that waiting and not
going at all is a perfectly o.k. thing. As a past owner of a preschool I
know what goes on there and none of it is good for kids. She got all
offended and said,"well, I think he needs it and he can handle it" then
stormed off. What the hell did she ask me her opinion for in the first
place. She wanted me to tell her it was not just o.k., but a spectacular
thing to do. When someone finds out I am homeschooling, they just don't get
it and silence is usually the norm. This makes me uncomfortable, so most of
the time I just let it go.
>>>So maybe next time open up, and vent to them your frustration!>>>I really would love to do this I'm sure it would make me feel a lot better.
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Kimberly [mailto:Kontessa_Rose@...]
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 5:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: my problem with people
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
>> but honestly, when I givethe benefit of the doubt, they seldom fail to disappoint me.>>
My husband and I felt like we were the only ones who felt this way. We have
proof of it over and over again.
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Alyce [mailto:alyce13j@...]
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 12:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: my problem with people
---
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Boy, and I thought I was the only one feeling this way! We were going to
introduce ourselves to a family down the road that I found out are hs'ers. But
thats just it, I don't know if they hs or unschool!
Syndi-going thru people problems too!
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
introduce ourselves to a family down the road that I found out are hs'ers. But
thats just it, I don't know if they hs or unschool!
Syndi-going thru people problems too!
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
This is a pretty normal response to hsing though, whether you are unschooling
or not. I figure most parents are trying to do the right thing by their
children and then you choose something different. Hmmm . . . maybe they aren't the
great parents they want to be . .. hmmmm . . . so what to do . . . lash out,
that's easy, denigrate other choices, that works, etc.
Nance
In a message dated 7/5/2004 2:47:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
She wanted me to tell her it was not just o.k., but a spectacular
thing to do. When someone finds out I am homeschooling, they just don't get
it and silence is usually the norm. This makes me uncomfortable, so most of
the time I just let it go.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
or not. I figure most parents are trying to do the right thing by their
children and then you choose something different. Hmmm . . . maybe they aren't the
great parents they want to be . .. hmmmm . . . so what to do . . . lash out,
that's easy, denigrate other choices, that works, etc.
Nance
In a message dated 7/5/2004 2:47:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
She wanted me to tell her it was not just o.k., but a spectacular
thing to do. When someone finds out I am homeschooling, they just don't get
it and silence is usually the norm. This makes me uncomfortable, so most of
the time I just let it go.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/5/2004 10:37:39 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
they dont just sit stone face and do nothing ,,,omg,,,they are KIDS!!!!!!
some people need to get over themselves...
June
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
> I just about cried - it was truly one of the saddest things I'd everyeah..i've been told,,[by mom-in-law]that my kids are spoiled,,why??cause
> seen.
>
> -pam
>
they dont just sit stone face and do nothing ,,,omg,,,they are KIDS!!!!!!
some people need to get over themselves...
June
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/5/2004 1:34:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
valerie@... writes:
By the time Laurie was
four or so years old I had a whole new set of childless friends.
<<<
All of the people we spend a lot of time with are childless, but love
children. Works out better this way.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
valerie@... writes:
By the time Laurie was
four or so years old I had a whole new set of childless friends.
<<<
All of the people we spend a lot of time with are childless, but love
children. Works out better this way.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Beth Fleming
> When Laurie was younger and we were around otherHello Valerie and Others,
> parents/children, I
> had to watch that I didn't have an air of
> superiority about how they
> were 'handling' their children. I was very
> uncomfortable around most
> parents because of their parenting choices. By the
> time Laurie was
> four or so years old I had a whole new set of
> childless friends. I
> didn't want to spend any more time and energy
> watching them exhaust
> themselves while making their children miserable. I
> never was able
> to locate any other gentle parents in our area. :-(
>
> love, Valerie
>
Looking for a little input...I, too, am uncomfortable
around others whose parenting choices are not my
own...the toughest to deal with is my sister!! She is
constantly yelling at her kids and getting
angry...this seems normal for her, but makes me, my
husband, and the kids uncomfortable...the sad part is
that since this is the situation, we don't see them
very much and this keeps my kids from getting to know
their cousins very well. They are almost exactly the
same ages and play together very well, but just the
thought of spending time with my sister and her
husband being all over the kids gives me the willies!
What to do at holiday time? Last year, I almost
cancelled and we almost went on a made-up trip to stay
away, but I gave in and went through a hellish visit
for the sake of the kids and their relationship with
their cousins...
I have considered talking to my sister, but her
defensive personality does not allow a "conversation".
I was hoping that others might be able to share their
wisdom on how to handle this situation...
Thanks to everyone for your sincere and enlightening
posts!
Best,
Beth
>__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], "Valerie" <valerie@u...>
wrote:
parents! The people across the street keep apologizing for their kids
coming over so much and I love it! I could send Mikey to their house,
but not Caroline, so I'd much rather have kids come over...without
the yelling, spanking or threatening to spank parents!!!
--aj
wrote:
>I was very uncomfortable around mostThis is why I like to have the neighborhood kids over without their
> parents because of their parenting choices.
parents! The people across the street keep apologizing for their kids
coming over so much and I love it! I could send Mikey to their house,
but not Caroline, so I'd much rather have kids come over...without
the yelling, spanking or threatening to spank parents!!!
--aj
Ren
">>Instead of saying, "wow, what a loser", how about a deep
breath and a
silent
wish for them to find peace for themselves and their children?>>>"
One can do that AND be extremely frustrated and saddened by what they see or hear.
I ran into a former homeschooling Mom, that put her ds back in school after a year of trying to school him at home. Total frustration on both their parts (you should have seen the stack of curriculum she forced on him daily).
She told me they might consider homeschooling again, and went on to tell me about how stressed he is, how the testing gives him anxiety, how he has problems socially because he's an EXTREME introvert....on and on.
I just looked at her and said "you should look into unschooling, you won't have all that stuff being shoved into his head and he can follow his interests."
Her answer?
He has NO interests. I countered that and said all people have interests (unless they have major brain damage) and that it's us, as the parents that need to shift how we think in order to honor their interests.
We're standing in the middle of Books-a-million, while her ds is attending the weekly Yu-gi-oh trading.....but he has no interests?
ARGH!!
She answered my counter that "No, even when he was three, he had NO interests" and gave me a lame description of his learning "disabilities".
Argh, argh and more argh.
This kind of thing is the extreme end of sadness to me. HOW could a parent see their child as having NO interests at all? It was right in front of her, and she could only see him as broken.
This is a perfect example of our society. I'm so glad I feel like an outcast in this sick society. I'm so glad our family lives completely different from the norm. It's a wonderful thing to swim upstream...some on in, the water is FINE.:)
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
breath and a
silent
wish for them to find peace for themselves and their children?>>>"
One can do that AND be extremely frustrated and saddened by what they see or hear.
I ran into a former homeschooling Mom, that put her ds back in school after a year of trying to school him at home. Total frustration on both their parts (you should have seen the stack of curriculum she forced on him daily).
She told me they might consider homeschooling again, and went on to tell me about how stressed he is, how the testing gives him anxiety, how he has problems socially because he's an EXTREME introvert....on and on.
I just looked at her and said "you should look into unschooling, you won't have all that stuff being shoved into his head and he can follow his interests."
Her answer?
He has NO interests. I countered that and said all people have interests (unless they have major brain damage) and that it's us, as the parents that need to shift how we think in order to honor their interests.
We're standing in the middle of Books-a-million, while her ds is attending the weekly Yu-gi-oh trading.....but he has no interests?
ARGH!!
She answered my counter that "No, even when he was three, he had NO interests" and gave me a lame description of his learning "disabilities".
Argh, argh and more argh.
This kind of thing is the extreme end of sadness to me. HOW could a parent see their child as having NO interests at all? It was right in front of her, and she could only see him as broken.
This is a perfect example of our society. I'm so glad I feel like an outcast in this sick society. I'm so glad our family lives completely different from the norm. It's a wonderful thing to swim upstream...some on in, the water is FINE.:)
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
pam sorooshian
On Jul 5, 2004, at 9:52 AM, Alyce wrote:
She did not want to go across, wanted to go up - and wanted to do it at
the other end. The guy at the entrance said, "Start over here."
I intervened (and this time there WAS a line - but she wasn't holding
up the line by going to the end and going up and back down) and I just
kind of brazened my way - I just said, "Oh - she's going to start
there and just go up and back down." I said it like: That IS the way
she's going to do it.
How funny!
I think it is natural to want to climb those walls in different ways -
not the one way.
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
> I saw no reason to pullHA - if that was at the Science Center - Rosie did the SAME thing once.
> my son off the wall - he entered at the "proper entrance" just ran
> to the farther end to start climbing. And he wanted to climb up not
> across as were the rules. Jeez Louise.
She did not want to go across, wanted to go up - and wanted to do it at
the other end. The guy at the entrance said, "Start over here."
I intervened (and this time there WAS a line - but she wasn't holding
up the line by going to the end and going up and back down) and I just
kind of brazened my way - I just said, "Oh - she's going to start
there and just go up and back down." I said it like: That IS the way
she's going to do it.
How funny!
I think it is natural to want to climb those walls in different ways -
not the one way.
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
Beth,
My entire family sounds like your sister. I wish I had a better solution
than avoiding the whole holiday ceremony but I don't. We stopped seeing my
family about 2 years ago, at least for any event that might last more than
an hour. I know that I should probably be using this opportunity to explain
to my kids that families have different ways of dealing with things, but I
still am affected by the way my parents treated me and each other that I
just can't do that to my kids even on the short term. I grew up around only
cousins and although I had fun at the time, looking back I probably could
have picked nicer, more sophisticated friends, (not the ones introducing me
to alcohol and smoking). My point is friends are friends they don't
necessarily need to be family.
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Beth Fleming [mailto:momofwc@...]
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 4:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] was problem with people/ parenting
choices
Looking for a little input...I, too, am uncomfortable
around others whose parenting choices are not my
own...the toughest to deal with is my sister!! She is
constantly yelling at her kids and getting
angry...this seems normal for her, but makes me, my
husband, and the kids uncomfortable...the sad part is
that since this is the situation, we don't see them
very much and this keeps my kids from getting to know
their cousins very well. They are almost exactly the
same ages and play together very well, but just the
thought of spending time with my sister and her
husband being all over the kids gives me the willies!
What to do at holiday time? Last year, I almost
cancelled and we almost went on a made-up trip to stay
away, but I gave in and went through a hellish visit
for the sake of the kids and their relationship with
their cousins...
I have considered talking to my sister, but her
defensive personality does not allow a "conversation".
I was hoping that others might be able to share their
wisdom on how to handle this situation...
Thanks to everyone for your sincere and enlightening
posts!
Best,
Beth
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My entire family sounds like your sister. I wish I had a better solution
than avoiding the whole holiday ceremony but I don't. We stopped seeing my
family about 2 years ago, at least for any event that might last more than
an hour. I know that I should probably be using this opportunity to explain
to my kids that families have different ways of dealing with things, but I
still am affected by the way my parents treated me and each other that I
just can't do that to my kids even on the short term. I grew up around only
cousins and although I had fun at the time, looking back I probably could
have picked nicer, more sophisticated friends, (not the ones introducing me
to alcohol and smoking). My point is friends are friends they don't
necessarily need to be family.
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Beth Fleming [mailto:momofwc@...]
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 4:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] was problem with people/ parenting
choices
> When Laurie was younger and we were around otherHello Valerie and Others,
> parents/children, I
> had to watch that I didn't have an air of
> superiority about how they
> were 'handling' their children. I was very
> uncomfortable around most
> parents because of their parenting choices. By the
> time Laurie was
> four or so years old I had a whole new set of
> childless friends. I
> didn't want to spend any more time and energy
> watching them exhaust
> themselves while making their children miserable. I
> never was able
> to locate any other gentle parents in our area. :-(
>
> love, Valerie
>
Looking for a little input...I, too, am uncomfortable
around others whose parenting choices are not my
own...the toughest to deal with is my sister!! She is
constantly yelling at her kids and getting
angry...this seems normal for her, but makes me, my
husband, and the kids uncomfortable...the sad part is
that since this is the situation, we don't see them
very much and this keeps my kids from getting to know
their cousins very well. They are almost exactly the
same ages and play together very well, but just the
thought of spending time with my sister and her
husband being all over the kids gives me the willies!
What to do at holiday time? Last year, I almost
cancelled and we almost went on a made-up trip to stay
away, but I gave in and went through a hellish visit
for the sake of the kids and their relationship with
their cousins...
I have considered talking to my sister, but her
defensive personality does not allow a "conversation".
I was hoping that others might be able to share their
wisdom on how to handle this situation...
Thanks to everyone for your sincere and enlightening
posts!
Best,
Beth
>__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alyce
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
That was INDEED the Science Center. lol. Funny how the same thing
happened!
Alyce
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>ran
> On Jul 5, 2004, at 9:52 AM, Alyce wrote:
>
> > I saw no reason to pull
> > my son off the wall - he entered at the "proper entrance" just
> > to the farther end to start climbing. And he wanted to climb upnot
> > across as were the rules. Jeez Louise.once.
>
> HA - if that was at the Science Center - Rosie did the SAME thing
That was INDEED the Science Center. lol. Funny how the same thing
happened!
Alyce
Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese
<<<<My point is friends are friends they don't
necessarily need to be family.>>>>
AnnMarie>>>
This is SO true. I will say that my own situation though is that I have
ended up dealing with my family - most days I think I'm doing okay making it
work. Sometimes I wonder about my sanity at getting it all started. My
siblings and I had an emotionally abusive childhood that involved a lot of
loss. I was the first of my siblings to have kids. 9 months after my
daughter was born, my sister had her first, a girl. She was going back to
work part-time and looking for someone to take care of her baby. I saw a
wonderful opportunity to give my daughter a close cousin relationship such
as I never had, and also an opportunity to be there as emotional stability
for my niece who I was sure would go through some difficulties knowing my
sister as I do. I knew it would be tricky but decided to try it.
The positives are that five years later, my daughter and this cousin are the
best of friends. Not only that, but starting to stay in touch with my
sister again through this bond to my niece got me back in touch with the
formerly allergic to responsibility brother I'd written off, and who got
married, had a little girl ten months after my sister. Now all three of
these girls are close as can be, and we have cousin nights at least weekly
(and all of us have two kids now). I actually find my brother and his wife,
although not attachment parents and stricter than I would be, are not
yellers or screamers or punitive in their parenting. They are okay to be
around, although my brother has sort of taken it as a personal affront to
his current career change to teaching that I'm unschooling...sigh. In any
event, if I look back, I cannot imagine my kids' lives without these close
relationships which are ones that they choose. It has indeed been
incredibly positive for them. I should add they decide when and if they
want to see cousins - I would never force it on them and sometimes they do
take long breaks and we decline invitations for a while.
My sister on the other hand, and even worse her husband (actually now her
ex-husband and they are going through bankruptcy and he is what she calls a
borderline-alcoholic, so much stress there), are yellers and screamers.
What they think is what comes out of their mouths. I have found this
difficult as have my sensitive children. Firstly I should say that if what
was being screamed was abusive put downs like "You stupid child...!" type of
stuff, no way would I have my children witness this. It's more like "Emma!
I can't do that right now! Can't you see I have to take care of your baby
sister!" that type of thing. So we have coping strategies...We invite my
sister and her ex to drop off the kids and "take a break cause gosh you sure
need it"...they do not need much persuading. So we get the benefit of the
kids without having to put up with them or their parenting. If we do go
over there, we similarly invite them to take a break, and often that works.
More work for me in a way, but better overall. Also, I take care of myself.
If I find that I'm getting depressed by being around them too much, I take a
break and stop contact for a while...or spread the contact out more.
I definitely talk to my kids (and to my niece when it seems appropriate)
about how they feel about the yelling if it happens and we are around. My
daughter basically doesn't really go to their house because of it unless
it's a birthday party or just to swim in their pool. There was one incident
when we were at my brother's house and my sister yelled at my daughter about
a pushing incident at the table. I was amazed at my own self-control that I
was able to intervene and handle it calmly at the time, then a few minutes
later, in a separate room, I told my sister that the way she had handled the
situation was not okay with me and I told her how I wanted it handled. My
sister is exactly the defensive type that I generally feel it is useless to
converse with, but it had to be done. She basically said "Well, I can try,
but you know I just say what comes out of my mouth." (ie - I'm a victim of
my own emotions, I have no control). But she's never done it again either.
If it became a problem, I'd definitely address it. Interestingly, I think
that over the last 6 months or so, my sister does not seem to be doing as
much yelling anymore, even with all the pressures she is under so I'm
hopeful that being around the more positive parenting of my brother's and my
family has made a difference although I really don't know. I do know that
my niece has gotten a visible benefit from the support and greater normalcy
of our family and my brother's family.
The worst part of it for me was when my sister moved to a bigger house (one
of the causes of current bankruptcy) with an in-law apartment that my mother
moved into. ACK! How was I to know she would do such a thing? I cut off
contact with my mother years before after deciding life was to short for her
to continue to make me feel bad. Now here I was with children attached to
my sister's kids and now my mother was there. I was very anxious for a
while, but followed my children's leads and my mother and I basically ignore
each other's presence. I answer questions about "Gran Gran" as my kids ask.
They haven't really gotten that interested in her, which is fine with me.
Now my sister and her ex are selling the house, so that situation will
change.
So I don't have any answers or advice, only an "boy, it's hard and oh so
complicated!" I see so much positive in our situation. I'm definitely
following the lead of my kids on this one, and I'm hoping I won't look back
when I'm old and grey and go "What was I THINKING!"
Joan
necessarily need to be family.>>>>
AnnMarie>>>
This is SO true. I will say that my own situation though is that I have
ended up dealing with my family - most days I think I'm doing okay making it
work. Sometimes I wonder about my sanity at getting it all started. My
siblings and I had an emotionally abusive childhood that involved a lot of
loss. I was the first of my siblings to have kids. 9 months after my
daughter was born, my sister had her first, a girl. She was going back to
work part-time and looking for someone to take care of her baby. I saw a
wonderful opportunity to give my daughter a close cousin relationship such
as I never had, and also an opportunity to be there as emotional stability
for my niece who I was sure would go through some difficulties knowing my
sister as I do. I knew it would be tricky but decided to try it.
The positives are that five years later, my daughter and this cousin are the
best of friends. Not only that, but starting to stay in touch with my
sister again through this bond to my niece got me back in touch with the
formerly allergic to responsibility brother I'd written off, and who got
married, had a little girl ten months after my sister. Now all three of
these girls are close as can be, and we have cousin nights at least weekly
(and all of us have two kids now). I actually find my brother and his wife,
although not attachment parents and stricter than I would be, are not
yellers or screamers or punitive in their parenting. They are okay to be
around, although my brother has sort of taken it as a personal affront to
his current career change to teaching that I'm unschooling...sigh. In any
event, if I look back, I cannot imagine my kids' lives without these close
relationships which are ones that they choose. It has indeed been
incredibly positive for them. I should add they decide when and if they
want to see cousins - I would never force it on them and sometimes they do
take long breaks and we decline invitations for a while.
My sister on the other hand, and even worse her husband (actually now her
ex-husband and they are going through bankruptcy and he is what she calls a
borderline-alcoholic, so much stress there), are yellers and screamers.
What they think is what comes out of their mouths. I have found this
difficult as have my sensitive children. Firstly I should say that if what
was being screamed was abusive put downs like "You stupid child...!" type of
stuff, no way would I have my children witness this. It's more like "Emma!
I can't do that right now! Can't you see I have to take care of your baby
sister!" that type of thing. So we have coping strategies...We invite my
sister and her ex to drop off the kids and "take a break cause gosh you sure
need it"...they do not need much persuading. So we get the benefit of the
kids without having to put up with them or their parenting. If we do go
over there, we similarly invite them to take a break, and often that works.
More work for me in a way, but better overall. Also, I take care of myself.
If I find that I'm getting depressed by being around them too much, I take a
break and stop contact for a while...or spread the contact out more.
I definitely talk to my kids (and to my niece when it seems appropriate)
about how they feel about the yelling if it happens and we are around. My
daughter basically doesn't really go to their house because of it unless
it's a birthday party or just to swim in their pool. There was one incident
when we were at my brother's house and my sister yelled at my daughter about
a pushing incident at the table. I was amazed at my own self-control that I
was able to intervene and handle it calmly at the time, then a few minutes
later, in a separate room, I told my sister that the way she had handled the
situation was not okay with me and I told her how I wanted it handled. My
sister is exactly the defensive type that I generally feel it is useless to
converse with, but it had to be done. She basically said "Well, I can try,
but you know I just say what comes out of my mouth." (ie - I'm a victim of
my own emotions, I have no control). But she's never done it again either.
If it became a problem, I'd definitely address it. Interestingly, I think
that over the last 6 months or so, my sister does not seem to be doing as
much yelling anymore, even with all the pressures she is under so I'm
hopeful that being around the more positive parenting of my brother's and my
family has made a difference although I really don't know. I do know that
my niece has gotten a visible benefit from the support and greater normalcy
of our family and my brother's family.
The worst part of it for me was when my sister moved to a bigger house (one
of the causes of current bankruptcy) with an in-law apartment that my mother
moved into. ACK! How was I to know she would do such a thing? I cut off
contact with my mother years before after deciding life was to short for her
to continue to make me feel bad. Now here I was with children attached to
my sister's kids and now my mother was there. I was very anxious for a
while, but followed my children's leads and my mother and I basically ignore
each other's presence. I answer questions about "Gran Gran" as my kids ask.
They haven't really gotten that interested in her, which is fine with me.
Now my sister and her ex are selling the house, so that situation will
change.
So I don't have any answers or advice, only an "boy, it's hard and oh so
complicated!" I see so much positive in our situation. I'm definitely
following the lead of my kids on this one, and I'm hoping I won't look back
when I'm old and grey and go "What was I THINKING!"
Joan
Robyn Coburn
<<<When Laurie was younger and we were around other parents/children, I
had to watch that I didn't have an air of superiority about how they
were 'handling' their children. I was very uncomfortable around most
parents because of their parenting choices.>>>
<<<I know of few circumstances where my judgemental attitude was helpful to
anyone, and kharmacally (sp???) speaking, it wasn't good for me either.>>>>
Hope it's not too confusing, but I have quoted two different people above.
As usual just when I have a difficulty in my parenting life, it turns up on
the lists.
DH was just telling me yesterday that I was too judgmental and superior
about other parents, and it was hurting my peace of mind, and certainly not
making any positive change in anyone else. He is right, and I hate to admit
it to him ;) At least until I have thoroughly confessed my troubles here,
anyway.
On UnschoolingDiscussion I have talked about Jayn's friendship with our
neighbors, a little girl two years older in school, and her brother who
turned 5 today. My dh and I have never taken to the girl, although we both
really like the boy most of the time. They are parented in the traditional
manner with plenty of punishments, time-outs, I think spanking sometimes,
and grabbing of the ear to drag them to their time out corner. Their mother
always asks in a forbidding manner whether they "behaved" when they have
visited, as if expecting to hear dire stories. However they "behave"
generally pleasantly almost all the time here - exception described a few
pars below.
For a while I felt I had to limit Jayn's exposure to Renee, since it seemed
to be causing Jayn stress to be seeing a lot of her. Jayn was taking nasty
behaviors and words into other situations with other friends, like saying
"I'm not your friend. I don't love you anymore" which she learnt from Renee.
When I talked to her about it, I learnt she was saying these things without
thought to the meaning, and without feeling it was true, and without any
provocation either - in the spirit of an experiment to discover the other
person's reaction.(Not that I would endorse this kind of statement as a
response to provocation!) When Renee started school last fall, the time
available lessened considerably.
Now that Jayn is more mature, we are letting the girls play together more,
on Jayn's instigation. My challenge is not over-reacting when the horrible
little wretch brings her nasty school-toxic manipulating behaviors into our
home. I don't trust her to be truthful, and she is full of one-upmanship
over everything Jayn relates to her. She still does "You're not my friend"
at Jayn, as well as threatening to leave, in order to make Jayn give her the
toy she wants to use. Last time Jayn actually said to her "You're joking!"
and laughed.
At the same time, Jayn often tries to change the game or get Renee to share
the toys (Jayn's toys) in ways that bug Renee - like grabbing. I can see
that Jayn wants to interact with Renee, while Renee just wants to play with
the toys for a while. So far I have failed in redirecting Jayn before she
becomes obnoxious, and thereby provoking the nastiness from Renee. Clearly
that is what I am going to have to do.
I feel bad, because my first reaction to Renee was a knee jerk "Please don't
say that kind of cruel thing to Jayn. If Jayn is doing something that is
bothering you just tell her so without the threats." I said it angrily and I
really regret that, instead of approaching her in a gentle parenting manner.
I'm having a hard time getting past my immense and increasing dislike, and
I'm ashamed of these hostile feelings. It is hard to remember that she is
just a little girl - a somewhat damaged child being treated most
unpleasantly and overly controlled at home.
Meanwhile, we were invited to participate in a Bar-B-Q for July 4th and to
celebrate Jonah's birthday. I was not looking forward to it, mostly because
I just don't enjoy their mother's way of speaking to the kids, and feel I
have to be protective of Jayn. The party was noisy, crowded, constant
telling the kids what to do, and what to eat or drink. Renee announced to
Jayn that the sodas were for adults. I immediately said Jayn could have
whatever she wanted. Several children (relatives of the family) were
continually exhorted to "go back and FINISH your hamburger", when clearly
they were done. One kid even said he was full and was actually told "No
you're not". (!!!!!)
Poor Jonah, very excited, was told to "CALM DOWN" several times, without
much help to do that other than various "or else's". I got the distinct
impression that they were giving him a lot of leeway because he was birthday
boy and on any other day he would be in time out a lot earlier. He does a
lot of stuff to deliberately test the limits of the adults around him, like
instantly hitting someone if told not to hit, but the response is always
punitive. He is so calm and pleasant at our house.
Jayn is good at helping herself out of situations. She asked so we went down
to swim in the middle, and had a good rest. We were able to escape a
terrifically hilarious game of adults lightly spanking the overexcited
children on their butts with a stick, which looked to me like it would
immediately get out of control the instant the kids regained possession of
the stick. ("Jonah give me that stick NOW!" "(crying) But it's mine!!")
Pretty soon Renee came to swim also, and the other children came down to run
about too. It seemed much better to have them all out doors.
Then we were told it was cake time. Jayn got dressed quickly and dh took her
back to the party. I stayed home to have a shower and dress more slowly,
since I don't care about cake. However when I strolled back down the balcony
to the party, I found they were playing organized games instead of having
cake. What a scene of misery. They were doing Musical Chairs in the
traditional competitive manner, and the littlest guys were instantly crying
when they were out in the first couple of rounds. Except Jayn who
delightedly called out "I lost!!" as she ran laughingly to Daddy and watched
the others, clapping to the music. The musical chairs game continued, with
lots of orders shouted until just about all the kids, except the eldest who
had won a couple of rounds, were in tears. What fun!
Next there was to be limbo. Some wanted to sit it out - no, they were told
they have to PLAY NOW. James (my dh) got on one end of the stick. He wanted
to lift or lower the stick depending on the participant - but no, he was
TOLD that you HAVE TO keep the stick at the same height to find out the
winner - by the mom, not any of the kids. This game degenerated to a lot of
crawling under the stick pretty quickly, and Jayn kept on laughing even
while others were being shouted at that that was NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO LIMBO.
Lots of outrage at what was fair being expressed - by the adults!
Actually Jayn seemed to be the winner in the end. Renee held out a basket of
assorted small items (junk from the bottom of her toy box but at least she
meant well) that she had put together as prizes, but Jayn just looked at
them and walked away not getting the concept. Thank you Alfie Kohn. Finally
we moved on to the cake.
I did mention to Renee's dad that there is a way to play Musical Chairs that
is non-competitive and every kid ends up laughing instead of crying, but got
a few "what is the matter with her" looks. Oh well.
Part of the problem that dh had with me is that I seem to be almost paranoid
about leaving Jayn alone with any member of that family. I don't allow her
to visit them alone largely because I don't want her to have to be stuck in
the environment of kids being shouted at and humiliated with nasty
adjectives like "sneaky" which of course they live up to. The mom leaves the
children unsupervised in the bedroom they share, and it is hard on Jonah to
be left out of the girls' play in what is partly his space, so he acts out.
It is just a powderkeg waiting to explode. Renee is very into tattling,
trying to get Jonah or Jayn into trouble, or trying to get her feel badly
about things that Jayn may (or may not) have said in the past. So far this
hasn't worked.
Also recently Renee started doing odd sexual stuff, which may or may not be
normal age appropriate development. Maybe you all can enlighten me here.
Renee followed Jayn to the bathroom, and tried to take (dragging her by the
arm) Jayn into the bathroom with her (which I stopped immediately). She has
tried to invent games that involve her putting her hands down Jayn's
swimsuit or pants, which I have also stopped. She is very much into
boyfriends, teen tv shows, and evidently has been trying to "Play Doctor"
with her brother, who told on her of course.
I spoke to her mom about this, since I was worried. I mean what if
subsequently it turned out that someone was doing something inappropriate
with Renee, and I had said nothing about my concerns? Any way her mom told
me that it was normal for a 6.5 yo, because Angel (cousin 2 years older and
staying with them over part of summer) did the same stuff.
Her mom also told me that they are very strict about enforcing "private
parts are private" with Renee, so something ain't working there. I wonder if
she is just curious as to whether all girls are essentially the same. Well I
don't care if it IS normal for Renee, Jayn is not the appropriate vessel for
her experimentation. So I watch them. I stay in the same room when they are
together, and I get into the pool with them, and I prevent them from going
to the bathroom together.
However in terms of the way Jayn and Renee communicate and play together, I
guess I am going to have to trust Jayn. Trust that she either can see more
in her friend than I can, or that in time she will come to see the nasty
behaviors of Renee and protect herself from them somehow. I'm sure I'm not
the first mother that didn't like her daughter's chosen friends.
Thanks for lasting through this long rant.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
had to watch that I didn't have an air of superiority about how they
were 'handling' their children. I was very uncomfortable around most
parents because of their parenting choices.>>>
<<<I know of few circumstances where my judgemental attitude was helpful to
anyone, and kharmacally (sp???) speaking, it wasn't good for me either.>>>>
Hope it's not too confusing, but I have quoted two different people above.
As usual just when I have a difficulty in my parenting life, it turns up on
the lists.
DH was just telling me yesterday that I was too judgmental and superior
about other parents, and it was hurting my peace of mind, and certainly not
making any positive change in anyone else. He is right, and I hate to admit
it to him ;) At least until I have thoroughly confessed my troubles here,
anyway.
On UnschoolingDiscussion I have talked about Jayn's friendship with our
neighbors, a little girl two years older in school, and her brother who
turned 5 today. My dh and I have never taken to the girl, although we both
really like the boy most of the time. They are parented in the traditional
manner with plenty of punishments, time-outs, I think spanking sometimes,
and grabbing of the ear to drag them to their time out corner. Their mother
always asks in a forbidding manner whether they "behaved" when they have
visited, as if expecting to hear dire stories. However they "behave"
generally pleasantly almost all the time here - exception described a few
pars below.
For a while I felt I had to limit Jayn's exposure to Renee, since it seemed
to be causing Jayn stress to be seeing a lot of her. Jayn was taking nasty
behaviors and words into other situations with other friends, like saying
"I'm not your friend. I don't love you anymore" which she learnt from Renee.
When I talked to her about it, I learnt she was saying these things without
thought to the meaning, and without feeling it was true, and without any
provocation either - in the spirit of an experiment to discover the other
person's reaction.(Not that I would endorse this kind of statement as a
response to provocation!) When Renee started school last fall, the time
available lessened considerably.
Now that Jayn is more mature, we are letting the girls play together more,
on Jayn's instigation. My challenge is not over-reacting when the horrible
little wretch brings her nasty school-toxic manipulating behaviors into our
home. I don't trust her to be truthful, and she is full of one-upmanship
over everything Jayn relates to her. She still does "You're not my friend"
at Jayn, as well as threatening to leave, in order to make Jayn give her the
toy she wants to use. Last time Jayn actually said to her "You're joking!"
and laughed.
At the same time, Jayn often tries to change the game or get Renee to share
the toys (Jayn's toys) in ways that bug Renee - like grabbing. I can see
that Jayn wants to interact with Renee, while Renee just wants to play with
the toys for a while. So far I have failed in redirecting Jayn before she
becomes obnoxious, and thereby provoking the nastiness from Renee. Clearly
that is what I am going to have to do.
I feel bad, because my first reaction to Renee was a knee jerk "Please don't
say that kind of cruel thing to Jayn. If Jayn is doing something that is
bothering you just tell her so without the threats." I said it angrily and I
really regret that, instead of approaching her in a gentle parenting manner.
I'm having a hard time getting past my immense and increasing dislike, and
I'm ashamed of these hostile feelings. It is hard to remember that she is
just a little girl - a somewhat damaged child being treated most
unpleasantly and overly controlled at home.
Meanwhile, we were invited to participate in a Bar-B-Q for July 4th and to
celebrate Jonah's birthday. I was not looking forward to it, mostly because
I just don't enjoy their mother's way of speaking to the kids, and feel I
have to be protective of Jayn. The party was noisy, crowded, constant
telling the kids what to do, and what to eat or drink. Renee announced to
Jayn that the sodas were for adults. I immediately said Jayn could have
whatever she wanted. Several children (relatives of the family) were
continually exhorted to "go back and FINISH your hamburger", when clearly
they were done. One kid even said he was full and was actually told "No
you're not". (!!!!!)
Poor Jonah, very excited, was told to "CALM DOWN" several times, without
much help to do that other than various "or else's". I got the distinct
impression that they were giving him a lot of leeway because he was birthday
boy and on any other day he would be in time out a lot earlier. He does a
lot of stuff to deliberately test the limits of the adults around him, like
instantly hitting someone if told not to hit, but the response is always
punitive. He is so calm and pleasant at our house.
Jayn is good at helping herself out of situations. She asked so we went down
to swim in the middle, and had a good rest. We were able to escape a
terrifically hilarious game of adults lightly spanking the overexcited
children on their butts with a stick, which looked to me like it would
immediately get out of control the instant the kids regained possession of
the stick. ("Jonah give me that stick NOW!" "(crying) But it's mine!!")
Pretty soon Renee came to swim also, and the other children came down to run
about too. It seemed much better to have them all out doors.
Then we were told it was cake time. Jayn got dressed quickly and dh took her
back to the party. I stayed home to have a shower and dress more slowly,
since I don't care about cake. However when I strolled back down the balcony
to the party, I found they were playing organized games instead of having
cake. What a scene of misery. They were doing Musical Chairs in the
traditional competitive manner, and the littlest guys were instantly crying
when they were out in the first couple of rounds. Except Jayn who
delightedly called out "I lost!!" as she ran laughingly to Daddy and watched
the others, clapping to the music. The musical chairs game continued, with
lots of orders shouted until just about all the kids, except the eldest who
had won a couple of rounds, were in tears. What fun!
Next there was to be limbo. Some wanted to sit it out - no, they were told
they have to PLAY NOW. James (my dh) got on one end of the stick. He wanted
to lift or lower the stick depending on the participant - but no, he was
TOLD that you HAVE TO keep the stick at the same height to find out the
winner - by the mom, not any of the kids. This game degenerated to a lot of
crawling under the stick pretty quickly, and Jayn kept on laughing even
while others were being shouted at that that was NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO LIMBO.
Lots of outrage at what was fair being expressed - by the adults!
Actually Jayn seemed to be the winner in the end. Renee held out a basket of
assorted small items (junk from the bottom of her toy box but at least she
meant well) that she had put together as prizes, but Jayn just looked at
them and walked away not getting the concept. Thank you Alfie Kohn. Finally
we moved on to the cake.
I did mention to Renee's dad that there is a way to play Musical Chairs that
is non-competitive and every kid ends up laughing instead of crying, but got
a few "what is the matter with her" looks. Oh well.
Part of the problem that dh had with me is that I seem to be almost paranoid
about leaving Jayn alone with any member of that family. I don't allow her
to visit them alone largely because I don't want her to have to be stuck in
the environment of kids being shouted at and humiliated with nasty
adjectives like "sneaky" which of course they live up to. The mom leaves the
children unsupervised in the bedroom they share, and it is hard on Jonah to
be left out of the girls' play in what is partly his space, so he acts out.
It is just a powderkeg waiting to explode. Renee is very into tattling,
trying to get Jonah or Jayn into trouble, or trying to get her feel badly
about things that Jayn may (or may not) have said in the past. So far this
hasn't worked.
Also recently Renee started doing odd sexual stuff, which may or may not be
normal age appropriate development. Maybe you all can enlighten me here.
Renee followed Jayn to the bathroom, and tried to take (dragging her by the
arm) Jayn into the bathroom with her (which I stopped immediately). She has
tried to invent games that involve her putting her hands down Jayn's
swimsuit or pants, which I have also stopped. She is very much into
boyfriends, teen tv shows, and evidently has been trying to "Play Doctor"
with her brother, who told on her of course.
I spoke to her mom about this, since I was worried. I mean what if
subsequently it turned out that someone was doing something inappropriate
with Renee, and I had said nothing about my concerns? Any way her mom told
me that it was normal for a 6.5 yo, because Angel (cousin 2 years older and
staying with them over part of summer) did the same stuff.
Her mom also told me that they are very strict about enforcing "private
parts are private" with Renee, so something ain't working there. I wonder if
she is just curious as to whether all girls are essentially the same. Well I
don't care if it IS normal for Renee, Jayn is not the appropriate vessel for
her experimentation. So I watch them. I stay in the same room when they are
together, and I get into the pool with them, and I prevent them from going
to the bathroom together.
However in terms of the way Jayn and Renee communicate and play together, I
guess I am going to have to trust Jayn. Trust that she either can see more
in her friend than I can, or that in time she will come to see the nasty
behaviors of Renee and protect herself from them somehow. I'm sure I'm not
the first mother that didn't like her daughter's chosen friends.
Thanks for lasting through this long rant.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/6/2004 10:03:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:
she'dpurposefully hurt your daughter,,,touching ones self ,,at 6.5 is normal to
apoint,,but by that age they learn what is //and//is not appropreate behavior..
follow your instinct..i've learned you have that for a reason....
June
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
>hun,,,you are doing the right thing to keep a eye on her,,not that
> I spoke to her mom about this, since I was worried. I mean what if
> subsequently it turned out that someone was doing something inappropriate
> with Renee, and I had said nothing about my concerns? Any way her mom told
> me that it was normal for a 6.5 yo, because Angel (cousin 2 years older and
> staying with them over part of summer) did the same stuff.
>
she'dpurposefully hurt your daughter,,,touching ones self ,,at 6.5 is normal to
apoint,,but by that age they learn what is //and//is not appropreate behavior..
follow your instinct..i've learned you have that for a reason....
June
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
The things that Renee is doing, as far as touching, is something she has
learned from somewhere. Evidently her cousin, but someone had to show her.
Yes, kids are curious, but that is going alittle to far. I agree, follow
your instinct.
As far as the way they play together, have you talked to Jayn about the
way real friends treat each other? That she doesn't have to take what Renee
dishes out? Just my thoughts.
syndi
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
learned from somewhere. Evidently her cousin, but someone had to show her.
Yes, kids are curious, but that is going alittle to far. I agree, follow
your instinct.
As far as the way they play together, have you talked to Jayn about the
way real friends treat each other? That she doesn't have to take what Renee
dishes out? Just my thoughts.
syndi
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jeanne Goodman
----- Syndi's Original Message -----
As far as the way they play together, have you talked to Jayn about the
way real friends treat each other? That she doesn't have to take what Renee
dishes out?
I wonder if this isn't the real point to all of this. I worry, as I read this thread, that as parents isolate their children from some of this behavior that they disapprove of, whether they are denying them another type of education. An education about dealing with the real world and real people. I'm certainly not suggesting that Robyn should allow Jayn to be molested by another child, but there is a bit of some education that can happen around the "I won't be your friend anymore" attitude that I believe is typical and age appropriate and worth discussing as a learning opportunity, "When Renee says those things what do you think she's really trying to say?" "Where do you think she learned that?" "What do you think would happen if you don't give her those things?"
Just my 2 cents.
Jeanne
P.S. (funny story) When Miss T was about 4 she was spending some time with a child who was about six when she learned the phrase "Do x or I won't be your friend anymore." Miss T didn't fully get the concept. When DH went to the bank one day (which is right next to the ice cream shop) T assumed he was going to get her ice cream. When he didn't she got angry, grabbed onto a railing shouting, "Go away! I'm not going with you. You're NOT my Daddy anymore!"
DH began to nervously look around to see if anyone was getting the police to pick up this "child abductor". Fortunately for him, no one in this town gives a stiff so it went unnoticed.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As far as the way they play together, have you talked to Jayn about the
way real friends treat each other? That she doesn't have to take what Renee
dishes out?
I wonder if this isn't the real point to all of this. I worry, as I read this thread, that as parents isolate their children from some of this behavior that they disapprove of, whether they are denying them another type of education. An education about dealing with the real world and real people. I'm certainly not suggesting that Robyn should allow Jayn to be molested by another child, but there is a bit of some education that can happen around the "I won't be your friend anymore" attitude that I believe is typical and age appropriate and worth discussing as a learning opportunity, "When Renee says those things what do you think she's really trying to say?" "Where do you think she learned that?" "What do you think would happen if you don't give her those things?"
Just my 2 cents.
Jeanne
P.S. (funny story) When Miss T was about 4 she was spending some time with a child who was about six when she learned the phrase "Do x or I won't be your friend anymore." Miss T didn't fully get the concept. When DH went to the bank one day (which is right next to the ice cream shop) T assumed he was going to get her ice cream. When he didn't she got angry, grabbed onto a railing shouting, "Go away! I'm not going with you. You're NOT my Daddy anymore!"
DH began to nervously look around to see if anyone was getting the police to pick up this "child abductor". Fortunately for him, no one in this town gives a stiff so it went unnoticed.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]