Annette W

Hallo Group.

My name is Annette. I have three sons, Arthur (7), Henry (4) and Linus (2).
Before I had kids I was a pediatric nurse. I thought kids are always ill, they need set routines and are best kept in sterile conditions away from their parents who only do harm. Not quite as strict as I state it here, but basically I had very little trust in me or anybody to know what's right for kids.
Then I had Arthur, read a couple of books, some free magazines and that's when the confusion started. Who's right who's wrong? Obviously I am wrong, my child doesn't read and write by 2.
I've tried Waldorf, because that sheltered me from early literacy and gave me a little help during Arthurs preschool time. Then Waldorf became all inclusive. Can't watch movies, TV, play computer games or for that matter have INFORMATION about Arthurs activities while at school. All clouded in a veil of waldorfian wisdom that I as a mere mortal (by that time) mother of 3 could not possibly understand.
A very brief stint at a blue ribbon, awards public school (exactly 5 schooldays) made it clear that's not the way to go.
So we came to homeschooling and through the internet I found out about unschooling. So here we are.

The things that I need to work on and hope to get input for are:
-peacefull parenting,
-what limits are reasonable to set (mostly media contents, rated R movies etc),
-there are 3 kids - sometimes a member of the family will not get what they want so we can adress the need of all of us better (one wants TV, 2 want Park)

I will never write a mail this long again, promise.
Annette.


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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Annette W <annette75093@...>

The things that I need to work on and hope to get input for are:
-peacefull parenting,

-=-=-=-

Great place for this! <g> You also might want to get Rue's book,
Parenting a Free Child: An Unschooled Life

Sandra's site: www.sandradodd.com/unschooling

Joyce's site: rejoycing----I should know that by heart, but I don't.
Hot link Fairy???

-=-=-=-
-what limits are reasonable to set (mostly media contents, rated R
movies
etc),

-=-=-=-=-

Our limits are set by the individuals. Cameron (18) likes scary movies.
Duncan (10) likes anime. Ben (husband) likes independent films. I
really like comedies.

Duncan and I watched Pirates of the Carribean the other night. Ferris
Bueller's on tap for tomorrow (we'll all watch that). Ben & I watched
Wit last week. Cameron and I watched Drumline Friday. Rent's in the
queue right now---I doubt Duncan will be interested. He tends to shy
away from too much violence, really scary things, and romance---things
that are generally rated R. He's fine with rough language. But he won't
*choose* movies with sex/love scenes or things that may frighten him or
one with real looking violence.

-=-=-=-=-

-there are 3 kids - sometimes a member of the family will not get
what they
want so we can adress the need of all of us better (one wants TV, 2
want Park)

-=-=-=-

That can be really hard, but working out "if..thens" can help: If we go
to the park, then we can stop by the game store on the way home. If we
watch the rest of this show, then we can leave for the park. OH! And
TIVO! Then there's no more TV anxiety! <g> We keep a portable DVD
player in the car for Duncan when he doesn't particularly want to go/do
whatever. That's helped a bunch---for long trips too!

-==-=-


I will never write a mail this long again, promise.

--=-=-=-

Chances are you'll have much longer future posts! <G> Don't sweat it!



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 24, 2006, at 1:00 AM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> Joyce's site: rejoycing----I should know that by heart, but I don't.
> Hot link Fairy???

*I* don't know it. I just go to Sandra's site and click on "Joyce" ;-)

http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 23, 2006, at 4:50 PM, Annette W wrote:

> what limits are reasonable to set (mostly media contents, rated R
> movies etc)

What R rated movies have they asked to watch?

What do you fear will happen if they do watch those movies?

By forbidding you're making the movies more powerful than your kids.
You're telling them that they aren't competent in this area in a
world that is constantly telling them aren't competent because
they're kids.

Empower them. Help them gain the information and skills so they're
more powerful than a thing.

If you see your job as helping them get what they want and avoid what
they don't want, then how can you help them? Give them information to
help them make more informed decisions. (Real information for them to
think over. Not said in "Here's why you obviously don't want to see
this and if you decide otherwise, I'm not responsible because I told
you so," way. Be there with them to give them support. Give them
power over it: fast forward through parts they want to skip, stop
when they want to stop. Watch the making of features to see how scary
parts are done. Find out where the parts are that will frighten them
(ScreenIt! is a good place http://www.screenit.com).

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 4/23/06, Annette W <annette75093@...> wrote:
>
> Hallo Group.
>
> My name is Annette. I have three sons, Arthur (7), Henry (4) and Linus
> (2).


OK, I'm jealous. Those are all names I wanted to name our children and got
the thumbs down, One would think having been married to a medievalist who
also loved open sourc computers that he would have loved those names. :)
Welcome, Annette.

I think most of us had odd ideals about what raising children was like until
we actually had them. There is something about holding that tiny bundle and
wishing you could spend the rest of your life with them that makes some of
us actually seek to do that. I wish everyone had the ability to trust
themselves in raising their own children!

The things that I need to work on and hope to get input for are:
> -peacefull parenting,
> -what limits are reasonable to set (mostly media contents, rated R movies
> etc),
> -there are 3 kids - sometimes a member of the family will not get what
> they want so we can adress the need of all of us better (one wants TV, 2
> want Park)


Oy, read the archives from the past two weeks. We just had a wonderful
discussion about limits. I haven't "sheltered" my children from the media,
ever. Even during the 9-11 disaster my children were aware of what was
going on. My (then) 2yo went about playing other things and my older two
asked lots of questions. As far as rated R movies, I've never been very
strict about such. I'll let the kids know what kind of content a movie has
in it. For instance, "There may be lots of kissing and naked bodies" or
"Lots of people get killed in this movie in very violent ways." Usually my
children will decide that they don't want to watch those themes and so will
not watch them. I also will watch movies with my children that I have
concerns might upset them. I find that mostly they aren't quite interested
in movies that have strong nudity or violence in them anyway. I recently
had a friend who was shocked that I let my girls (almost 11 and 14) to watch
Brokeback Mountain. "But it has such mature themes!" And I don't see my
children as being juvenile. :)

I will never write a mail this long again, promise.
> Annette.


Oh don't promise that! I tend to ramble for pages and pages (if e-mail
actually had pages) :)





--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

trektheory

--- In [email protected], "Pampered Chef Michelle"
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
>
> Oy, read the archives from the past two weeks. We just had a
wonderful
> discussion about limits. I haven't "sheltered" my children from
the media,
> ever.

I've had to with my son. The repercussions otherwise were too
awful. He's the sensitive type. I remember when he saw Scooby-Doo
on Zombie Island at a friends and had a problem with that. His
friend was younger, and watched things that would have freaked my son
out. Kids are so different. (People are, but then, kids are people,
so we have to expect them to be different, I guess!)


>And I don't see my
> children as being juvenile. :)

Whereas I don't see myself as mature! ;-)


>
> I will never write a mail this long again, promise.
> > Annette.
>
>
> Oh don't promise that! I tend to ramble for pages and pages (if e-
mail
> actually had pages) :)
>

I'm prone to long rambles, myself. I didn't think her intro was long!

Linda

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 24, 2006, at 10:34 AM, trektheory wrote:

> I've had to with my son. [shelter from media] The repercussions
> otherwise were too
> awful. He's the sensitive type. I remember when he saw Scooby-Doo
> on Zombie Island at a friends and had a problem with that.

There's a difference -- an important difference -- between a child
who wants help avoiding something they don't want to see and a parent
deciding the child won't be able to handle something they are asking
to see.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

trektheory

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 24, 2006, at 10:34 AM, trektheory wrote:
>
> > I've had to with my son. [shelter from media] The
repercussions
> > otherwise were too
> > awful. He's the sensitive type. I remember when he saw Scooby-
Doo
> > on Zombie Island at a friends and had a problem with that.
>
> There's a difference -- an important difference -- between a
child
> who wants help avoiding something they don't want to see and a
parent
> deciding the child won't be able to handle something they are
asking
> to see.

There is also a difference between protecting a child from harm --
whether physical or emotional -- and letting them find out the hard
way! Children don't know to not run out in front of a running car
before being taught it, but that's and easy danger for them to
visually learn about. The other kinds can be harder, because less
concrete. But if I KNOW something will be psychologically harmful
to my child at that stage of development, I guide him away from
harm.

Linda

Joanne

Hi Annette and welcome.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com




--- In [email protected], Annette W
<annette75093@...> wrote:
>
> Hallo Group.
>
> My name is Annette. I have three sons, Arthur (7), Henry (4) and
Linus (2).
> Before I had kids I was a pediatric nurse. I thought kids are
always ill, they need set routines and are best kept in sterile
conditions away from their parents who only do harm. Not quite as
strict as I state it here, but basically I had very little trust in
me or anybody to know what's right for kids.
> Then I had Arthur, read a couple of books, some free magazines
and that's when the confusion started. Who's right who's wrong?
Obviously I am wrong, my child doesn't read and write by 2.
> I've tried Waldorf, because that sheltered me from early
literacy and gave me a little help during Arthurs preschool time.
Then Waldorf became all inclusive. Can't watch movies, TV, play
computer games or for that matter have INFORMATION about Arthurs
activities while at school. All clouded in a veil of waldorfian
wisdom that I as a mere mortal (by that time) mother of 3 could not
possibly understand.
> A very brief stint at a blue ribbon, awards public school
(exactly 5 schooldays) made it clear that's not the way to go.
> So we came to homeschooling and through the internet I found out
about unschooling. So here we are.
>
> The things that I need to work on and hope to get input for are:
> -peacefull parenting,
> -what limits are reasonable to set (mostly media contents, rated
R movies etc),
> -there are 3 kids - sometimes a member of the family will not
get what they want so we can adress the need of all of us better
(one wants TV, 2 want Park)
>
> I will never write a mail this long again, promise.
> Annette.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC
and save big.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Annette W

Thanks for this one. I do think it is my job to shelter him from psychological harm or scary pictures, even if it means not giving him a choice. Arthur (7) has no inhibitions to watch something really gory as long as I am in the room. But later he'll report back that he has nightmares.
So protecting him from scary movies, while not limiting myself only to Disney and the like is an option.
Annette.

There is also a difference between protecting a child from harm --
whether physical or emotional -- and letting them find out the hard
way! Children don't know to not run out in front of a running car
before being taught it, but that's and easy danger for them to
visually learn about. The other kinds can be harder, because less
concrete. But if I KNOW something will be psychologically harmful
to my child at that stage of development, I guide him away from
harm.

Linda








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 24, 2006, at 4:40 PM, trektheory wrote:

>> There's a difference -- an important difference -- between a
>> child who wants help avoiding something they don't want to see
>> and a parent deciding the child won't be able to handle something
>> they are asking to see.
> But if I KNOW something will be psychologically harmful
> to my child at that stage of development, I guide him away from
> harm.

You missed my point.

My point is that if a child is asking "Don't let me see Scooby Doo,"
then we should help them not see Scooby Doo.

We can't know what a child can handle until they've tested the waters
beyond their boundaries. We don't need to put them in front of Texas
Chainsaw Massacres. We need to be with them as they explore so we can
learn along with them what they want to see and what they don't so we
can help them.

It helps people to think clearer and make better decisions if we see
the difference between a parent judging for the child what they can
and can't handle -- e.g., I don't want my child to watch Scooby Doo
because it has scary images that might frighten him -- and the parent
helping the child get what the child has said he wants and avoid what
he's said he doesn't want.

And if we're helping them avoid something they don't want to see it
helps to see how it is different from sheltering them. Kids will grow
and change and they need to keep testing their boundaries to see what
they're capable of. If we're sheltering them we're preventing them
from testing what they're capable of.

> Children don't know to not run out in front of a running car
> before being taught it, but that's and easy danger for them to
> visually learn about.

No child wants to be killed.

Every child could to be seriously injured if they're hit by a bus.

It's up to us to protect kids from imminent death. It's what our
children trust us to do.

The same is not true of Scooby Doo and R rated movies. Some kids can
handle violence. Some can't. It's up to us to learn what children
want to see and what they don't want to see and help them do that. To
help unschooling flourish we need to give them the freedom to
explore, not shelter them. Help them avoid what they've said they
don't want, yes. But also give them the freedom to test their
boundaries knowing we're there to help them.

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 25, 2006, at 12:13 AM, Annette W wrote:

> Arthur (7) has no inhibitions to watch something really gory as
> long as I am in the room. But later he'll report back that he has
> nightmares.

The only options aren't letting and not letting.

In terms of unschooling, in terms of helping our children explore the
world and learn more about themselves, if a child is drawn to
something it's our job to help them explore and help them deal with
the consequences.

You could watch scary movies together early in the day. You could
watch just a few minutes at a time. You could discuss together ways
the special effects could have been done and you could watch the
"Making of" segments to see how they really did them. You could sleep
with him to give him support as he's exploring the boundaries of his
comfort zone.

If a child is determined to master skateboard techniques, they're
going to get banged up. The answer isn't to take the skateboard
away. The answer is to help them explore.

Traditional parenting has two answers to most questions about raising
kids: 1) Teach them they can't and 2) Protect them from harm.

Neither of those helps unschooling to flourish.

The purpose of this list is to help parents see their role in a new
way: as their children's partners in exploring the world rather than
their protectors from the world.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 4/24/06, Annette W <annette75093@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for this one. I do think it is my job to shelter him from
> psychological harm or scary pictures, even if it means not giving him a
> choice. Arthur (7) has no inhibitions to watch something really gory as long
> as I am in the room. But later he'll report back that he has nightmares.


I still get nightmares from "scary movies" (although I think the definition
of what I find scary now as an adult is different from when I was a child
LOL!) but I still enjoy watching some genre of "scary movies." Does he
enjoy the movies despite the nightmares? If so then limiting his exposure
to them is cutting out a part of his life that he does enjoy. Helping him
deal with the nightmares is a better option. If an obstacle is in our way
to joyful living, then our job, as parents, is to help remove the obstacle
so that joyful living can be its fullest!





--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

trektheory

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 24, 2006, at 4:40 PM, trektheory wrote:
>
> >> There's a difference -- an important difference -- between a
> >> child who wants help avoiding something they don't want to
see
> >> and a parent deciding the child won't be able to handle
something
> >> they are asking to see.
> > But if I KNOW something will be psychologically harmful
> > to my child at that stage of development, I guide him away from
> > harm.
>
> You missed my point.
>
> My point is that if a child is asking "Don't let me see Scooby
Doo,"
> then we should help them not see Scooby Doo.

How could my son ask about something of which he had no knowledge?
(BTW, I wasn't there -- he had slept over the friend's house, and
they watched it in the morning. And had I known, I would not have
suspected that that particular show would evoke the response it did.)

I'm viewing it in a different way. If my son had food allergies
(fortunately, to the best of my knowledge he doesn't, but I know a
number of kids who do), it would be my job to guide him away from
foods -- foods that are perfectly fine for other kids -- that would
cause a negative reaction in his body. In this case, I was guiding
him away from tv and books that would have a negative reaction to
his mind. Big difference, though, is that he was about to grow out
of this "mental allergy" (to carry the analogy). I used him as a
guide for what was/wasn't acceptable. But I had to have the
knowledge of both him and the story. Having a very sensitive child
does bring with it different issues than the "typical" child.


>
> We can't know what a child can handle until they've tested the
waters
> beyond their boundaries.

There's the rub -- the boundaries may be blurred for some children,
clear-cut for others. Things that seemed innocuous were sometimes
harmful to my son. (Again, this was years ago, and for the most
part, has outgrown it.)


>We don't need to put them in front of Texas
> Chainsaw Massacres. We need to be with them as they explore so we
can
> learn along with them what they want to see and what they don't so
we
> can help them.

As a family, we watch things together, and do use the medium that
way. (Books can run the gamut, and there have been occasions when
he read something he wished he hadn't. He is 14 now, btw.) Scooby
Doo was at a friend's house. But even at our house, when he was
younger, he could watch something, and appear fine -- until later.
The ramifications were often difficult to deal with.


>
> It helps people to think clearer and make better decisions if we
see
> the difference between a parent judging for the child what they
can
> and can't handle -- e.g., I don't want my child to watch Scooby
Doo
> because it has scary images that might frighten him -- and the
parent
> helping the child get what the child has said he wants and avoid
what
> he's said he doesn't want.

Again, how can he tell ahead of time what will be too much for him?
He has no basis to judge. If someone handed me a book, just a
title, and asked me to rate it for what age, how could I? I would
know nothing about it!


> > Children don't know to not run out in front of a running car
> > before being taught it, but that's and easy danger for them to
> > visually learn about.
>
> No child wants to be killed.
>
> Every child could to be seriously injured if they're hit by a bus.
>
> It's up to us to protect kids from imminent death. It's what our
> children trust us to do.

No child wants to be killed -- but do they know what will kill
them? My son can (and often does) eat nuts, but a friend who has an
anaphalactic reaction can be killed by it. A child isn't born with
that knowledge - or that there may well be nuts in other foods that
look like they don't have nuts. (Or dairy, or....)

No child wants psychological damage, either. And what is damaging
to one child may not be to another. And the child may not KNOW it
is damaging, until the damage is done.

I DID protect my son from things that would have been
psychologically damaging to him, and that he now can handle. I
would do the same again, if I had a "do-over". (I do wish life gave
do-overs!) Your child can guide you without having to watch dubious
things, read dubious stories.

I love the fact that we can all choose different paths, and do what
is right for OUR children, without dictating to others what they
should do for theirs. I don't believe that lockstep learning (or,
as is usually the case in schools, memorizing and regurgitating!) is
appropriate, that people learn differently, and I don't believe that
development is lockstep, either. I parent according to my child's
needs, and have a better feel for what he needs than someone who has
never met him. You have found something that works for you and your
family and that is great. I have, too, and that, to me, is also
great.

Linda

Annette W

Well I agree that I tend to overprotect my children and I'm working on it. But I already sleep in the same room with my children and they know a good bit about movie making. Scary images don't get better by knowing how they were generated. Watching a movie a few minutes at a time is no enjoyment to me. If unschooling means that I have to do everything at the pace of my children and every aspect of my life has to be geared towards what they want/need then I will be left out of my life. If real unschoolers are able to put their interests that are not shared or movie watching that is not beneficial to young children or having sex with their spouse on hold for several years ecause there are 3 kids in the bed and they can't get antagonized by being asked to give the parents a little private time (we already never have any, so it's not something I have to turn off - I haven't had time alone with my husband in months). So watching a gory movie like Kill Bill is going to be no fun
for me if I have to watch it a few minutes at a time. In order to watch that movie I tried to help everybody go to sleep and stole out of the room. Next thing you know Arthur is coming into the living room.
Is this unschool thing another way to make parents feel incompetent, not reasonable? When my children watch Snow White for the 15th time and they kick me out because they don't want me to see it with them then that's fine. If I choose a movie to watch by myself and I make all the effort to be out of everybodies way, it's after midnight I still have to bend to what's good for him. I must not love my children enough.



On Apr 25, 2006, at 12:13 AM, Annette W wrote:

> Arthur (7) has no inhibitions to watch something really gory as
> long as I am in the room. But later he'll report back that he has
> nightmares.

The only options aren't letting and not letting.

In terms of unschooling, in terms of helping our children explore the
world and learn more about themselves, if a child is drawn to
something it's our job to help them explore and help them deal with
the consequences.

You could watch scary movies together early in the day. You could
watch just a few minutes at a time. You could discuss together ways
the special effects could have been done and you could watch the
"Making of" segments to see how they really did them. You could sleep
with him to give him support as he's exploring the boundaries of his
comfort zone.

If a child is determined to master skateboard techniques, they're
going to get banged up. The answer isn't to take the skateboard
away. The answer is to help them explore.

Traditional parenting has two answers to most questions about raising
kids: 1) Teach them they can't and 2) Protect them from harm.

Neither of those helps unschooling to flourish.

The purpose of this list is to help parents see their role in a new
way: as their children's partners in exploring the world rather than
their protectors from the world.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[email protected]

>>So watching a gory movie like Kill Bill is going to be no fun
for me if I have to watch it a few minutes at a time.>>

Watching a movie like Kill Bill would be no fun for me no matter how I watched it. <g> That's why I chose to be somewhere else when my husband and son rented it.

I don't think anyone is suggesting you *recommend* scary or gory movies to children. Far from it. It's a given that we're there to guide, protect and direct them as the need arises.

I often save movies to watch when my kids are otherwise occupied. Sometimes it's because I think they won't like them. Sometimes it's because I want to watch something alone. I do that with my dh sometimes too.

That's not the same as telling them they are forbidden from watching a particular movie or certain tyoe of movie without discussion. I am NOT saying you are doing this BTW. I'm just trying to focus the discussion a little bit.

Was Arthur asking to watch the movie? Was it important to him? If so, why do you think that was?

--

~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Annette W <annette75093@...>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 25, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Annette W wrote:

> Is this unschool thing another way to make parents feel
> incompetent, not reasonable?

The discussions are meant to help people view their role in their
children's lives differently and solve problems from a different
perspective.

It's exhausting to cast ourselves in the role of Problem Solver and
Child Protector! It removes a lot of weight to see ourselves as their
partners.

That probably doesn't make much sense but it does after you've read a
lot of the advice from unschoolers and see where they're coming from
and what they're goals are.

> So watching a gory movie like Kill Bill is going to be no fun for
> me if I have to watch it a few minutes at a time.

I think it will help you to step back and see goals rather than
solutions to a particular incident. Watching adult movies with kids
in the house means during some movie there will be kids wandering in.
It's a choice with known consequences and we need to be prepared to
handle the consequences.

If our goal is to be their partner, helping them avoid what they
don't want to see, then there are options: pause while the child's
needs are tended to, tell the child we'd be happy to watch it with
him tomorrow a little at a time but that this late at night he'll
have problems with the images. When kids see us as their partner,
they'll trust that information -- assuming it *is* true! If we've
followed through in the past and they know they can trust us to watch
it with them the next day (or whatever solution we know we can stick
with) then they won't be needy to have it right then.

That's a goal. It's not something anyone can jump right to if we
haven't built up that trust with them.

If the goal is to have alone time, putting on Kill Bill with kids in
the house isn't the best solution. The movie is more than likely
going to get interrupted. Ask people on the list how they've gotten
alone time, how they've recharged their batteries. Long time
unschoolers are good at seeing *other* solutions than the standard ones!

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 25, 2006, at 10:37 AM, trektheory wrote:

> How could my son ask about something of which he had no knowledge?

You said he saw Scooby Doo at a friend's house. That's where he got
the knowledge. And when you found out his reaction that's how you got
your knowledge of him.

But I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. I'm not giving advice
on what to do with kids who are scared of movies. I'm trying to point
out how changing a view point can help us see things in a different way.

Helping a child avoid what he knows he doesn't want to see *is*
different than protecting them. It just is and I don't know how to
explain it any better. I'm not discussing what you did or didn't do,
only discussing semantics and how to help people see things
differently. But my words aren't working so it's pointless for me to
throw more words at it. Maybe someone else can say it in a different
way.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 4/25/06, Annette W <annette75093@...> wrote:
>
> Scary images don't get better by knowing how they were generated.


Depending on your child it can! Mary Elayne didn't want to watch LOTR for
the longest time until she learned how all the creatures were made after we
got the DVD with all the bonus features including make up and CG work.
After she realized how all the wraiths and goblins and trolls and other ugly
horrifying creatures were built it made watching the move easier and now she
gets all excited about watching movies that have fantasy creatures in them!


Watching a movie a few minutes at a time is no enjoyment to me. If
> unschooling means that I have to do everything at the pace of my children
> and every aspect of my life has to be geared towards what they want/need
> then I will be left out of my life.


Are your children not part of your life? I'm not saying that you need to
spend 24/7 with your children and only do their interests. I mean how are
they going to learn to live life joyfully if you are living your life
begrudgingly? Parents need to find creative ways in which to spend some
time pursuing their own interests. Sometimes, especially when our babies are
small, that may mean putting our current interests on a back burner and
finding something that is more manageable. I LOVE movies but hate being
interupted or talked to or interupted :) while I am watching them. When my
children were smaller I would leave them with their father and run to the
movies and watch them alone! No one talked to me, no one ate my popcorn
(actually, I rarely got any), no one asked me to take them to the bathroom,
and no one interupted me. It cost around $5 (It's now $6.50-$8) but I
considered it buying time to myself. If going out is a problem, then
consider watching your movie when they are asleep - late at night or (as can
happen in my house) early in the morning. Keon and I have shared some great
movie time at 5am!

I have scheduled time when I do some of my arts. I have a monthly time when
I go to a rubber stamp class and challenge, a monthly time when I go
scrapbook, and a weekly time when my kids know I am in my studio working.
I've been known to get up in the middle of the night or wee hours of the
morning and go create or write. I still actively pursue my interests
because I need that creativity in my life and my children need to see me
doing those things!

If real unschoolers are able to put their interests that are not shared or
> movie watching that is not beneficial to young children or having sex with
> their spouse on hold for several years ecause there are 3 kids in the bed
> and they can't get antagonized by being asked to give the parents a little
> private time (we already never have any, so it's not something I have to
> turn off - I haven't had time alone with my husband in months).


Well, somehow you managed to have children number 2 and 3 :) Just because
there are multiple bodies in your bed doesn't mean that you can't find time
for intimate relationships. You have to be creative. I have a friend who
had a family bed. Every once in a while her family would have a "camp out"
in the living room. Mom and Dad would spread out sleeping bags and pop
corn, rent a bunch of new movies, have hotdogs and s'mores (or some other
theme) and the kids would all sleep in the living room while Mom and Dad
snuck off to their own room for some privatel time. Take advantage of play
dates, sleepovers at grandma's, midafternoon surprise naps, and other
opportunities when you find yourself alone. Heck, ask a friend if you can
drop the kids off for an hour while you go have a romantic lunch with your
hubby!


>
> Is this unschool thing another way to make parents feel incompetent, not
> reasonable? When my children watch Snow White for the 15th time and they
> kick me out because they don't want me to see it with them then that's fine.
> If I choose a movie to watch by myself and I make all the effort to be out
> of everybodies way, it's after midnight I still have to bend to what's good
> for him. I must not love my children enough.


That's not what unschooling is all about at all. One way you could approach
this is by saying, "I'm watching Kill Bill. It's quite a gory and violent
movie. I know you get upset when you see such angry scenes. If you want to
curl up here and watch it with me, you may, but you may want to go find
something else to do or maybe go read a book in another room." IT IS OK FOR
PARENTS TO DO SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THEY WANT TO DO! Yes; I yelled that.
I hope you heard it. The difference between unschooling and "regular
parenting" is that with unschooling you give your children the information
that they need to make a decision rather than deciding for them! And if
your child decides that he wants to watch the movie with you and then finds
it to frightening you can always say, "You feel frightened by this movie
because it is so violent. Would you like me to pause it and go tuck you in
bed or help you find something else to do while I finish watching it?" Then
you have met the needs of yourself and your child!





--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandy Deby

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to the group and find myself being so inspired by most things put out.

I have to admit Joyce I Like the way you expressed your self and I feel that when ever we have to defend something we are really afraid were wrong you, feel very solid in your own knowingest

To me what I'm listening to and observing is about are own knowings and trusting that and our children's.

I'm not sure what email it was but it was one about violent movies. I think that once again in all of this there is no right or wrong and I did feel with one point that an email seemed slightly dogmatic.
The reason I'm leaving the Waldorf school with one of my children and looking at the unschooling.

It feels so right yet, fundamental anything makes me nervous. Passion in what we believe is good but when I sense this is the way and the only way it makes me nervous.

I was asked by Kelly a while ago what I want for my kids in the way of goals and the first one that popped into my mind and could be the influence of A course In miracles is that I want them to have inner peace and to accept themselves and others equally.
To live a passionate lifes and find there divine purpose.

I struggle with these things myself from being royally messed up by the system, and want my children to live there dreams.

I did have a day today of wondering in my low energy state , which I thought was odd for a raw food and living foods vegetarian but it happens. I felt also not like hanging around with my kids its as if my own inerchild needed to be taken care of and didn't have much to offer and didn't feel present at all.

Of course my ego went crazy with this and said see you will never be able to do this ma bey your pipe dreaming you just wish you could be a unschooler, your way to self absorbed.

Just letting it all out guys for I know when we make big life changes the opp site will come in louder than ever.

I know this to shall pas , but needing some support and feedback.

I am also aware of making so many mistakes because of my own woundness that I'm afraid as my eldest said today who calls herself my Ginnie pig if I'm just on another tangent trying to help everyone??

Gee wonder why I'm getting my degree right now in psychology.

Namaste..................Sandy
Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:

On Apr 25, 2006, at 10:37 AM, trektheory wrote:

> How could my son ask about something of which he had no knowledge?

You said he saw Scooby Doo at a friend's house. That's where he got
the knowledge. And when you found out his reaction that's how you got
your knowledge of him.

But I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. I'm not giving advice
on what to do with kids who are scared of movies. I'm trying to point
out how changing a view point can help us see things in a different way.

Helping a child avoid what he knows he doesn't want to see *is*
different than protecting them. It just is and I don't know how to
explain it any better. I'm not discussing what you did or didn't do,
only discussing semantics and how to help people see things
differently. But my words aren't working so it's pointless for me to
throw more words at it. Maybe someone else can say it in a different
way.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Annette W <annette75093@...>

Thanks for this one. I do think it is my job to shelter him from
psychological
harm or scary pictures, even if it means not giving him a choice.
Arthur (7) has
no inhibitions to watch something really gory as long as I am in the
room. But
later he'll report back that he has nightmares.

-=-=-=-

I think choice is everything.

I think not providing him with enough information so that he *can*
choose is cruel. Just letting him watch because he says he wants to is
not kind when you have knowledge about it that you could share.

There are so many things you could do to help him make the best
decision he can. You sould check on the ScreenIt site and let him know
whether it might be too scary or gory or lovey-dovey. You could watch
it withhim, pause, discuss, reassure, and fast forward. You could get
the bonus DVD and see how it was made---that often helps.

If he *does* watch something too scary---it's better to learn what can
diminish the fear than forbidding it or something similar.

A lot of adults watch scary movies *in order to* be scared! <g> They
just then need to figure out how to deal with the fear. They *want* it!
But they need to compartmentalize it. That's a good thing!

-=-=-=-
So protecting him from scary movies, while not limiting myself only
to Disney
and the like is an option.

-=-=-=-=-

There are plenty of movies that aren't scary AND aren't Disney! <g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Annette W <annette75093@...>

Well I agree that I tend to overprotect my children and I'm working
on it. But I
already sleep in the same room with my children and they know a good
bit about
movie making. Scary images don't get better by knowing how they were
generated.

-=-=-=-=-

Sometimes they do. Depends on the person.

-=-=-=-

Watching a movie a few minutes at a time is no enjoyment to me.

-=-=-=-=-

Well,....isn't your goal to make this enjoyable for your *son*?

-=-=-=-

If unschooling means that I have to do everything at the pace of my
children and every aspect
of my life has to be geared towards what they want/need then I will be
left out of my life.

-=-=-=-=-

Unschooling means you don't *have* to do anything. But if you want a
peaceful home full of respect and trust, you may want to see that your
life *with* children won't look much like your life *without* children.

-=-=-=-=-

If real unschoolers are able to put their interests that are not
shared or movie watching that is not beneficial to young children or
having sex
with their spouse on hold for several years ecause there are 3 kids in
the bed
and they can't get antagonized by being asked to give the parents a
little
private time (we already never have any, so it's not something I have
to turn
off - I haven't had time alone with my husband in months).

-=-=-=-

I'm a real unschooler! <g>

I have many interests that aren't shared by other family members. They
each have interests that I don't share.

I don't watch movies that I think wouldn't be beneficial to my young
child when he is around. I watched Kill Bill one night when Duncan was
playing a new game---he was engrossed for hours. I thik he came
downstairs once during. I pasued it. Hit play again when he'd left. He
asked about he movie. I said it was *very* violent. He didn't *want* to
watch it.

I simly tell the boys that Ben and I need some alone time. They'll
watch a movie or play a game or do something together for a while.
They're now 10 and 18. they *know* what's going on, but they're kind
enought o understand.

When they were younger, we would get up early, move to another room,
ask a neighbor whether they could come over for a bit, have them spend
the night with cousins or grandparents. It's not an all or nothing
deal.

-=-=-=-

So watching a gory movie like Kill Bill is going to be no fun
for me if I have to watch it a few minutes at a time. In order to
watch that
movie I tried to help everybody go to sleep and stole out of the room.
Next
thing you know Arthur is coming into the living room.

-=-=-=-=-

Well, it's not *that* fun a movie! <g> With or without interruptions!
<g>

You can whine or you can get creative. being sneaky---stealing out of
the room---is probably not the best idea. Being honest---saying that
you want to watch a movie that is rough and violent and that it would
probably scare them---would be better.

But they won't be this little for long---it gors waaaay faster than you
think it will right now. You can put off these kinds of movies until
the kids are old enough to be out of the house for a bit.

-=-=-=-

Is this unschool thing another way to make parents feel incompetent,
not
reasonable? When my children watch Snow White for the 15th time and
they kick me
out because they don't want me to see it with them then that's fine. If
I choose
a movie to watch by myself and I make all the effort to be out of
everybodies
way, it's after midnight I still have to bend to what's good for him. I
must not
love my children enough.


-=-=-=-=-

WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! WHOA!!!!!!

You're an adult. They are children with very fews coping skills. They
need time to learn how to deal with things. You're 30-something (?) and
still haven't? Yet you expect *them* to already be capable?????

I think you might need to step back and see things from a 7 year old's
point of view--and whatever other aged children you have.

Is there a reason they're kicking you out (and why would you want to
watch Snow White *again*?) ?? Is there a reason you *have* to watch
such a movie (Kill Bill) right now? Can't *that* wait? if not, why not?

The unschooling parents I know are THE most competent and reasonable
people on the planet! But they didn't get there overnight. They worked
at it---and *keep* working at it because it's important to them.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 25, 2006, at 10:10 PM, Sandy Deby wrote:

> I think that once again in all of this there is no right or wrong
> and I did feel with one point that an email seemed slightly dogmatic.

One person's post can be read as dogmatic by one and as clarity by
another and just plain confusing by another. Which is why lists are
great! Lots of people can same the same thing in different ways that
will reach different people. :-)

And I feel very strongly that there is right and wrong. Hurting a
child is wrong. Neglecting a pet is wrong. Posting "I don't want to
do that and you can't make me," to a discussion list is wrong ;-)
(It's better -- because it doesn't waste posters and readers time --
to post about things people *do* want to change. :-)

I think the principles of unschooling are universally right. That
doesn't mean I'm going to go out and hold people down on the street
and make them accept my principles ;-) It does mean when someone
joins a list *to get help moving towards unschooling* I won't
hesitate to point out what's getting in their way. It's what they
imply they want by signing onto a list like this one that says "this
is a place for you to discuss,question, ponder and become deeply
familiar with natural learning and how it affects our entire lives."

But if anyone can't read my words without hearing dogma, feel free to
delete. I'm not in the least insulted! :-) I often write to clarify
an idea for myself and it surprises me that it actually helps some
people ;-) On a list there are others writing similar ideas in
different ways.

In terms of whether there is right and wrong, there are two issues, I
think:

One is when people give specific suggestions for a situation. No one
can know exactly what the whole situation looks like at someone's
house. And while suggestions help someone see how the principles are
put into action in some homes, what's really important is to
understand the principles behind the suggestion. No one can say do x
and y will happen. Unschooling isn't like a curriculum ;-)
Unschooling is a mindset and set of principles, seeing children as
competent beings and ourselves as their partners as they explore.

Two is that not everyone has the same goals. A family who wants their
children to get into Harvard is going to make different choices than
a family who is supporting a child's exploration of the world (which
may or may not lead to Harvard depending on what the child decides he
wants.) Neither is "right" or "wrong" but there are practices that
will help (be right) and hinder (be wrong) their movement toward
their goal.

*But* by signing onto an unschooling list someone is implying they
want unschooling as a goal so the principles (and illustrative
practices) presented will be ones that will help people unschool.
Members don't have to accept everything that is presented on the
list. They can pick and choose what they take away. But what's
presented will be helping people move towards unschooling.

That's why discussion lists are different than support lists.
Discussion lists are for discussing how to get to a specific place.
Support lists are for supporting each other where they are as they
are as they try to figure things out and grow and change. Discussion
groups aren't *unsupportive*. They just aren't intended to meet the
needs of people who need others to say "Yes, you're still a good
mommy if you prevent your child from watching R rated movies." And
support groups aren't uninformative. They just aren't intended to
help people self examine. The two types of lists serve different
roles and functions.

Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/

Manisha Kher

--- Pampered Chef Michelle
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:

>
>
> The difference between
> unschooling and "regular
> parenting" is that with unschooling you give your
> children the information
> that they need to make a decision rather than
> deciding for them!
>
Yes. And you also help them deal with the consequences
instead of smugly saying "I told you so".

My daughter watched Scooby Doo at a friend's house and
got scared. It was too much for her. A few weeks later
we were in a hotel room with cable TV and Scooby Doo
came on. She wanted to watch it. I reminded her that
she got nightmares last time, but she was convinced
that now things are different because now she was
older. Then her cousin who was there explained to her
that the good guys always win in the end. That made
all the difference. She watched Scooby Doo and did not
get nightmares.

Another incident - we were watching Princess Bride.
Both kids got scared and we stopped watching. A few
months later some friends were visiting and all of
them have watched PB before and wanted to watch it
again. DD watched it with them but I could tell by
the look on her face that she was on edge. Later she
asked me "Aren't you scared of those big rats?". I
explained to her that they're supposed to be scary. I
get scared and then go phew! because everyone is safe.
I think that has made her see it in a different light.

Then there is stuff that I can't handle. My kids
watched Inspector Gadget. There were scenes in the
first part of the movie where I had to leave,
especially because I was eating dinner! But it didn't
bother my kids at all.

Manisha

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Annette W

and so we come back to unschoolers deciding for me

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Annette W <annette75093@...>

Thanks for this one. I do think it is my job to shelter him from
psychological
harm or scary pictures, even if it means not giving him a choice.
Arthur (7) has
no inhibitions to watch something really gory as long as I am in the
room. But
later he'll report back that he has nightmares.

-=-=-=-

I think choice is everything.

I think not providing him with enough information so that he *can*
choose is cruel. Just letting him watch because he says he wants to is
not kind when you have knowledge about it that you could share.

There are so many things you could do to help him make the best
decision he can. You sould check on the ScreenIt site and let him know
whether it might be too scary or gory or lovey-dovey. You could watch
it withhim, pause, discuss, reassure, and fast forward. You could get
the bonus DVD and see how it was made---that often helps.

If he *does* watch something too scary---it's better to learn what can
diminish the fear than forbidding it or something similar.

A lot of adults watch scary movies *in order to* be scared! <g> They
just then need to figure out how to deal with the fear. They *want* it!
But they need to compartmentalize it. That's a good thing!

-=-=-=-
So protecting him from scary movies, while not limiting myself only
to Disney
and the like is an option.

-=-=-=-=-

There are plenty of movies that aren't scary AND aren't Disney! <g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Annette W

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Annette W <annette75093@...>

Well I agree that I tend to overprotect my children and I'm working
on it. But I
already sleep in the same room with my children and they know a good
bit about
movie making. Scary images don't get better by knowing how they were
generated.

-=-=-=-=-

Sometimes they do. Depends on the person.

Yeah, but I'm being made out as somebody that doesn't know their children. In his case I know, he has seen a lot of things I found objectionable ( know this spelling is wrong, english is my 3rd language, can't know everything).

-=-=-=-

Watching a movie a few minutes at a time is no enjoyment to me.

-=-=-=-=-

Well,....isn't your goal to make this enjoyable for your *son*?

No, my goal IN THIS INSTANCE was to have a couple of hours of enjoyment for myself. I know I'm never gonna be as holy as you. I actually need times to myself. bad bad bad.

-=-=-=-

If unschooling means that I have to do everything at the pace of my
children and every aspect
of my life has to be geared towards what they want/need then I will be
left out of my life.

-=-=-=-=-

Unschooling means you don't *have* to do anything. But if you want a
peaceful home full of respect and trust, you may want to see that your
life *with* children won't look much like your life *without* children.

What if what I want for my personnal interest is to watch scary/ gory wjhatever movies by myself and I make the time for it, or so I think and then kids walk in on me. My efforts to help them go back to sleep to keep pursuing my interest of a time awake without holding a kid, nursing a kid. Everybody here says they take a couple hours a week to do their crocheting outside of the house. Having an interest at home is not respectable?

-=-=-=-=-

If real unschoolers are able to put their interests that are not
shared or movie watching that is not beneficial to young children or
having sex
with their spouse on hold for several years ecause there are 3 kids in
the bed
and they can't get antagonized by being asked to give the parents a
little
private time (we already never have any, so it's not something I have
to turn
off - I haven't had time alone with my husband in months).

-=-=-=-

I'm a real unschooler! <g>

I have many interests that aren't shared by other family members. They
each have interests that I don't share.

I don't watch movies that I think wouldn't be beneficial to my young
child when he is around. I watched Kill Bill one night when Duncan was
playing a new game---he was engrossed for hours. I thik he came
downstairs once during. I pasued it. Hit play again when he'd left. He
asked about he movie. I said it was *very* violent. He didn't *want* to
watch it.

I simly tell the boys that Ben and I need some alone time. They'll
watch a movie or play a game or do something together for a while.
They're now 10 and 18. they *know* what's going on, but they're kind
enought o understand.

When they were younger, we would get up early, move to another room,
ask a neighbor whether they could come over for a bit, have them spend
the night with cousins or grandparents. It's not an all or nothing
deal.

Well good for you. I am in a new city without ANYKIND of support system. Every minute of the day is dedicated to be with children. I actually thought this group was to help and support. Not to undermine someone quest for a peacefull life. I have seen nothing but mean entries from some members here. It's actually disturbing.
So, again I am sorry I even tried. We had agood thing going. Homeschooling unschooliong. Whatever you want to call it. Me and my kids and husband (when home) lead a good life with a lot of input from every family member. If I then once in a blue moon decide that I in the dead of night I'd like the living room to be my spot I am being vilified, then there is a problem with radical unschooling. Because it put so much pressure on me that then will have to go some where. In order for me and my kids to keep our life in harmony with a few times where I will assert my position as non negotiable I will not try to get any deeper into unschooling.
It seem that unschoolers - acomplished ones - take out all their controll issues on people that try to have a plan, make lists. Everything is wrong. There is no system, even if it works for one family that an UNSCHOOLER will not find a way to attack.
-=-=-=-

So watching a gory movie like Kill Bill is going to be no fun
for me if I have to watch it a few minutes at a time. In order to
watch that
movie I tried to help everybody go to sleep and stole out of the room.
Next
thing you know Arthur is coming into the living room.

-=-=-=-=-

Well, it's not *that* fun a movie! <g> With or without interruptions!

true, but I wanted to see it. ME wanting to see it is not enough reason for me to try to watch it? Other people in my house have to approve of it?
<g>

You can whine or you can get creative. being sneaky---stealing out of
the room---is probably not the best idea. Being honest---saying that
you want to watch a movie that is rough and violent and that it would
probably scare them---would be better.

Getting up after 2 kids are fast asleep is hardly being sneeky. Telling the 3rd one to give me some time alone is not unschooly, but the 2 other ones where in dream heaven and had no use for me.

But they won't be this little for long---it gors waaaay faster than you
think it will right now. You can put off these kinds of movies until
the kids are old enough to be out of the house for a bit.

But I DON'T WANT TO put watchiong a movie on hold until my kids are off to college (wait thats not unschooly) are of playing the guitar with buddies.

-=-=-=-

Is this unschool thing another way to make parents feel incompetent,
not
reasonable? When my children watch Snow White for the 15th time and
they kick me
out because they don't want me to see it with them then that's fine. If
I choose
a movie to watch by myself and I make all the effort to be out of
everybodies
way, it's after midnight I still have to bend to what's good for him. I
must not
love my children enough.


-=-=-=-=-

WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! WHOA!!!!!!

You're an adult. They are children with very fews coping skills. They
need time to learn how to deal with things. You're 30-something (?) and
still haven't? Yet you expect *them* to already be capable?????

What do you know about my coping skills? I have coped with the New Orleans evacuation. Not on TV, I myself. 12 people in a 2 bedroom appartment I have coped with 3 kids being uprooted, crying for their home.2 bedroom place Loosing all their friends. I have coped with loosing my supprt system. I have coped with a city that smells like shit everwhere you turn The neighbors are all on crack or prescription drugs, the play grounds are contaminated with flood residue. So, no I have no f****ing coping skills for not watching a movie after I took all the measures possible to have that amout of time to me.

I think you might need to step back and see things from a 7 year old's
point of view--and whatever other aged children you have.

If I did that I would cry every night for my lost home, my lost friends. I spend all day long taking to them in a friendly voice. Being patient and trying to figura out ways for all 4 of us to have a nice day, get out a bit in the fresh air and maybe start meeting new people. At night I will soothe crying from homesick children. So there is really not stepping back any further possible at this time.

Is there a reason they're kicking you out (and why would you want to
watch Snow White *again*?) ?? Is there a reason you *have* to watch
such a movie (Kill Bill) right now? Can't *that* wait? if not, why not?

It can not wait. If one of my kids wants something I don't make him wait until he's 18, yet I have to wait for my interest until he's 18?

The unschooling parents I know are THE most competent and reasonable
people on the planet! But they didn't get there overnight. They worked
at it---and *keep* working at it because it's important to them.

Of course. All of you are enlightend. I am not and I am not ever going to be. No matter what I come up with for a solution that is non violent, does not include yelling or spanking. Somebody within my family will be inconvienienced for a while. That person will not be unschooled for 24 hours a day. So failure is built in.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 4/26/06, Annette W <annette75093@...> wrote:
>
> Well good for you. I am in a new city without ANYKIND of support system.
> Every minute of the day is dedicated to be with children. I actually thought
> this group was to help and support. Not to undermine someone quest for a
> peacefull life. I have seen nothing but mean entries from some members here.
> It's actually disturbing.


I'm sorry you feel that way. That is not anyone's intent here at all. I
have come to find that this group poses questions to new members ina way to
get them to start thinking about things in a different light. If you are
feelig trapped and alone then you need to find a way to feel less trapped
and less alone. there is a city (town, village, hamlet, whatever you live
in) that has the support you need. You just need to find a creative way of
finding it. Look on the internet, call some of the homeschooling groups in
your area, hang out at the park and look for other "truant" kids, join a
church, knitting circle, class, find La Leche League (if you are
breastfeeding) or other community group you have an interest in. Explore
some of your interests. You don't have to be alone!! You don't have to
feel trapped.


> It seem that unschoolers - acomplished ones - take out all their controll
> issues on people that try to have a plan, make lists. Everything is wrong.
> There is no system, even if it works for one family that an UNSCHOOLER will
> not find a way to attack.


Again, I am sorry you feel that way because that is NOT what I have found.
None of us wants to control you. What we want to do is let you explore
other options. I consider myself radical unschooler and I'm a list maker
planner! We are planning a family vacation soon and you should see my list
:) I make grocery lists, lists of things I need to do each week and all
sorts of other lists. I like lists. It helps me remember things that I
would otherwise forget.

I really don't see anything that anyone has said that I would classify as an
"attack." There is a difference between attacking something and questioning
it. I hope that you take some time to look at the things that some of us
have said, questioned and suggested and see if your prejudice (although that
isn't the word I'm wanting, but language is difficult for me today) isn't
keeping you from accepting them?





--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Manisha Kher

--- Annette W <annette75093@...> wrote:

> and so we come back to unschoolers deciding for me
>
Nobody is deciding anything for you. Nobody is peeping
into your house to see how you live. You chose to join
this list and this list's goal is to move towards
unschooling. So anything you say on the list is going
to be looked through the unschooling lens.

I thought we were talking about how to guide our
children around/thru scary movies instead of banning
them completely. Perhaps we should've changed the
subject to Scary movies or something like that to make
it clear that it wasn't about you at all. At least in
my mind it wasn't

Manisha



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Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 26, 2006, at 12:03 PM, Annette W wrote:

> and so we come back to unschoolers deciding for me

Everything here is offered to take or leave.

No one's trying to tell you how to live. But I think you were looking
for a support list where people can chat and share their lives and
unload their burdens and have others sympathize.

I hope you don't leave because this is a very good list. :-) But it
is a discussion list rather than support list. It's a list for
sharing problems people have in getting closer to unschooling.
Anything people post about it's assumed they want help and advice
about because that's how discussion lists work. :-) Discussion lists
are great places to get advice and new ideas and new ways of looking
at old problems. They aren't great places to unload stress and *just*
get sympathy.

It sounds like your life has been very stressful recently. I'm sorry
for that. If there are any things you think people *could* give you
new ways to look at things, or new ideas, don't hesitate to ask.

If you need links to local unschooling support groups, people can
point you in the right direction if you say where you live.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]