Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:18 AM, Misty Felner wrote:

> I also feel that
> realistically in life the majority of people have limitations,
> things they
> can and can't do on the job, in public, etc.

Is that a reason to impose more limitations?

Kids will come up against gravity, appointments, rain, rules about
running in grocery stores. Life is full of limitations. We can help
them learn to deal with natural limitations by helping them deal with
natural limitations. We don't need -- as school does! -- to create
artificial problems for kids to practice on. They get to try out the
real stuff (while we're there to keep them safe from onrushing buses
and out of situations they aren't ready to handle).

> but she knows it's something you shouldn't eat often
> because it doesn't help you grow.

But that's a lie. And when she sees tall, healthy people eating food
that "doesn't help you grow" it's going to confuse her. And the more
ideas like that that you put into her that she can see evidence
before her eyes the conflicts with what you say,

Schools are really good at telling people what they should see, the
one right answer so that when they see something different they
dismiss it as an unexplainable anomaly.

Absolutely we should be passing on what we believe but if we tell
them and it turns out we're wrong we've lost some of their confidence
in our word. It we use our "knowledge" as a way to make them make the
same choices we do, we're doing no better than school. We should be
helping them learn how to make decisions, not make the decisions we do.

> She's never
> asked for candy again

Which means what? I don't think my daughter liked candy much at that
age. At 2.5 my daughter had a similar food environment because there
wasn't a reason to have snacky food around. But by 14 she's been
exposed to lots of snacky foods and *still* without me hovering over
her, without me training her on what's "right" to eat and what's
"wrong", eats well balanced meals. Yes, she has candy. (She had a few
pieces of Easter candy. Not because I filled her with "information"
about how much was the "right" amount. Not because I limited it when
she was younger until she could make the same decisions I would. But
because she has always been able to have as much as she wants in a
home filled with other, easily accessible good food, so she eats as
much as she wants. Which is very little.) Yes, she has an occasional
soda but she prefers milk with a little chocolate. She prefers herbal
tea to black tea.

She eats some foods that some people consider bad. She is tall, thin,
athletic and healthy. On the whole she does eat foods that will "help
her grow". Not because I trained her. Not because I limited her, but
because she had the freedom to learn her own body, because I served
what I considered healthy food and kept healthy food *also* around in
addition to anything snacky (or nutritious!) that she asked for,
because I've given her real information. (Information as in I showed
her how to read a nutrition label when she wanted to know something
or show her why I was making one choice over another, told her
various thing that people believed about food, told her what I
believed so she could make her own decisions, not offered in a way
that said "You can't possibly make any other choice.") She *knows*
that there are more vitamins and minerals and good nutrition in some
foods than others. She doesn't fear the other food. She doesn't limit
less nutritious food. She just eats what she wants and *naturally*
eats more nutritious than less nutritious.

Don't fear so much. You'll be happier. Your daughter will be happier.

How will your daughter reconcile what you say about limiting foods
that don't "help people grow" with people like my daughter who are
healthy and well grown who do eat foods that won't "help people
grow"? Will she trust you less? Will she learn that she should just
listen to experts about such matters because what she sees with her
own eyes can't be explained except by experts who know so much more
than she does?

> That's my opinion others can do as they see fit for their kids.

But you're basing your opinion on what you fear. We're offering ideas
based on real experience with real unschooled kids. We do care as
much about our kids as you do yours. If we let our kids have
chocolate chips instead of carob chips it's not because we don't
care. It's because we trust that helping them learn how to navigate
the world will help them a lot more than teaching them how to
navigate a course we think is right.

> Those of
> you who responded that I'm limiting her freedom by not letting her
> taste it
> would you also let your child have a sip of your margarita (at 2.5)
> and if
> your child decided they liked it what then.

That seems a very legitimate question to ask but does it have any
basis in reality?

Ask! Ask what really happens.

My daughter has always been able to have a sip of alcohol. Alcohol
just doesn't appeal to her beyond a few sips.

I grew up able to have sips of alcohol. My aunt made some really
strong mixed drinks, often sweet ones, and served them to us at
weekly dinner at grandmas. I *never* drank more than a bit. I *never*
drank enough to get a buzz. My kid body -- without any adult telling
it -- naturally knew when I'd had enough. (Enough in terms of a food
that was interesting for a few sips than enough in terms of alcohol.
Just as it knew how to stop after a couple of bites of a so-so cookie.)

You will help your daughter learn how to weigh pros and cons and make
decisions if you don't fear so much. Ask what *really* happens when
the controls are lifted rather than basing your decisions on what you
fear will happen.

> I know this is true which is why I'm hoping to help shape her
> tastes now so
> that the foods that she'd like to try are in general foods that
> would be
> good for her.

Rather than assuming that will work, ask! Ask what outcomes people
have had trying to get their kids to only choose what the parents
think is healthy.

> How many people zone out reading a book?

How many kids zone out watching TV?

*Unschooled* kids get engaged.

If they aren't engaged, and are choosing TV because it's the most
interesting thing available, then there's something wrong in the
environment. The parents should be providing more opportunities.

Some wee little kids can get fixated on the moving images. It's
neither bad nor good. It just is because that's the stage of
development they're in. If their life is rich and full of other
things and mom is there for them, they move on. 3 yos do often want
to watch something over and over and over. It's a stage of
development, just as banging on pots is a stage of development. They
get what they need and move on.

*Adults* often zone out because they're using TV as a way to relax
after work or a stressful day. As a schooled kid I watched a lot of
TV for the same reason because it was a way to relieve the stress of
school. After my freshman year of college I watched *a lot* of TV
over the summer. (I saw Monty Python I estimated 37 times and, at the
beginning, I didn't even get it. ;-) I did it to relax. (And because
HBO was brand new and only had a few movies they played over and over.)

Now, as an adult I watch less because I don't need it to relax. I
watch it purposefully.

My daughter, who has always been able to watch whatever she wants
whenever she wanted to, also watches it purposefully. She doesn't
zone out. Though occasionally we'll all be captivated by a good story
which, to someone who fears TV, would look like zoning out.

> When she asks to watch something she is allowed.

When you want to watch something, are you allowed?

It will help you move towards whole life unschooling to not see it as
allowing them but helping them do what they want and enjoy.

It's okay if you don't want to move that direction. But any ideas
that are posted *that hinder someone else* from moving that direction
will be held up and examined.

> Yes I do put some limitations
> on my daughter. She's 2.5 and I feel at this age she needs
> guidance as to
> what is good for her to learn to make good decisions.

And there are plenty of people here who have teens -- who were 2.5 at
one time! -- who *know* from experience it isn't necessary to control
them until they can make the same decisions mom would.

If you give specific examples where you feel you need to limit,
people can give ideas on ways to help kids while not limiting. If you
don't want other ideas, and don't want what you do held up to
examination, then it's best not to post about it.

The list exists to help people move away from fear. Lots of people
have been where you are and they can help ease those fears and tell
you how their kids got to be healthy and happy at 8, 10, 15 without
limitations if you want. If you don't want to move from there, then
the *idea* of limitations and the conviction that limitations are
necessary will get discussed every time someone posts it because
there are parents who know there are other choices. You *can't*
convince people who've been where you are and have tried both limits
and being kids partner than limits are necessary because people here
know from experience that it isn't true.

People on the list can limit their kids and even make them do math.
No one can stop them. But if people choose to post about ideas that
move away from the principles of unschooling and how they apply to
whole lives, it will become a topic of discussion to help those who
*want* to let go but are afraid.

For those nervous members just beginning unschooling and those who
have 2.5 yos it's comforting to read that others fear their 2.5 yos
need decisions made for them and give into those fears. But it won't
help them move away.

Joyce

[email protected]

**How many people zone out reading a book?**

I do.

My husband has counselled our children over and over to make sure they have
eye contact with me if they're trying to converse with me when I'm reading. If
they don't get that, likely I'm not REALLY hearing them, even if I am
responding.

I'll read anything. If a book isn't handy I'll settle for cereal boxes.
Shampoo bottles. Ads. Whatever.

Sometimes I wonder if my print addiction would be so bad if my parents hadn't
tried so hard to stop me reading so much when I was little.

One of the only things I remember from my very early life is my mother
yelling at me to put down my book and go outside in the fresh air. (I took the book
with me.)

Deborah

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/18/2006 2:31:22 A.M. US Eastern Standard Time,
DACunefare@... writes:


I'll read anything. If a book isn't handy I'll settle for cereal boxes.
Shampoo bottles. Ads. Whatever.


That is sooooooooo me!!!!!!!! i think i need readers anonymous! its a
compulsion, i'll even read when i'm driving!

Mandy

(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)
(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)


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