broader learning and ramblings
Misty Felner
>Michelle wrote:
> I do have a comment on why it might be good for kids
> to learn more broadly than specialists later in life.
> I'm NOT saying this works for all kids or that it's
> THE way to go. Just presenting the idea that I think
> exposure to more choices and areas of expertise is a
> goal of mine for my son and for education in general.
But don't force that exposure on him.
I've been struggling a little bit with this topic. Especially since my
daughter is young, I feel it's important to expose her to as much as
possible to find out where her interests lie. I think I posted about this
before, but as in grade school my mother forced me and my brother and sister
to take 6 yrs of piano lessons (what she deemed the amount of time to make
us skilled enough to be able to pick up and play any sheet music we'd like)
practicing 30 minutes a day. When I was a child I hated that my mother made
me do this. I resented it so much that my brother and I used to cover for
each other and lie about the practice we had done. By high school though I
actually started appreciating that my mother made me do it. I got into
choir and music and actually regretted having not practiced more so that I
would be an even better player. In college when I needed a break I'd go
down to the lobby of my dorm and play. Of the 3 of us I am the only one who
as an adult still plays and owns a piano. I think my mother was a little
bit excessive in her demands, but had she followed in the unschooling
approach I would have given it up after only a year or two. And would not
have this great fulfillment in my life.
My husband and I have often discussed what we would do if dd joined
something, "say a team sport" and a quarter way or half way through the
season wanted to quit b/c she wasn't any good, bored, whatever. I feel that
she has an obligation to the team and should stick it out for the season.
My husband feels she should be able to quit at anytime. I'm curious if any
of you would agree with my side.
Ryam wrote:
I'm not much into force about anything except
health/safety. However I've had many jobs where I
needed skills that weren't part of the major focus of
the job. For example as a social worker I needed to
type so I could do all the form filling required.
Yet another thing my mother stepped in and made me do was to take typing in
high school as one of my "electives". Another thing I am very thankful for.
Ryam wrote:
Sure I could have tried to learn these things at the
point when I desperately needed them at work, but it
was also nice to already have them. If I hadn't had
them I couldn't have done the job.
That's how I feel about playing the piano. Sure I got interested in it
later on, but at that time I would not have wanted to just be beginning to
learn, I was glad I already had the skill.
Misty
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Misty Felner <misty@...>
I think I posted about this
before, but as in grade school my mother forced me and my brother and
sister
to take 6 yrs of piano lessons (what she deemed the amount of time to
make
us skilled enough to be able to pick up and play any sheet music we'd
like)
practicing 30 minutes a day.
-=-=-
Where did she get those numbers? And why didn't *she* do that rather
than force children to?
-=-=
When I was a child I hated that my mother made
me do this. I resented it so much that my brother and I used to cover
for
each other and lie about the practice we had done.
-=-=-=-
It made both of you liars and cheats, filled with resentment.
Bummer
--=---=-=-
.
By high school though I
actually started appreciating that my mother made me do it. I got into
choir and music and actually regretted having not practiced more so
that I
would be an even better player. In college when I needed a break I'd go
down to the lobby of my dorm and play.
-=-=-=-=-
You don't think that given space and the freedom to choose when to play
---and even to take a break when it was no longer fun---you don't think
you would have chosen to continue playing here and there? You don't
think you would have pursued it *ever* on your own? You don't think you
were capable of making those decisions?
-=-=-=-
Of the 3 of us I am the only one who as an adult still plays and owns
a piano.
-=-==-
But one out of three ain't bad, huh?
-=-=-=-
I think my mother was a little
bit excessive in her demands, but had she followed in the unschooling
approach I would have given it up after only a year or two. And would
not
have this great fulfillment in my life.
=-=-=-=-
You don't know that. Your siblings certainly do though!
=-==-=-
My husband and I have often discussed what we would do if dd joined
something, "say a team sport" and a quarter way or half way through the
season wanted to quit b/c she wasn't any good, bored, whatever. I feel
that
she has an obligation to the team and should stick it out for the
season.
My husband feels she should be able to quit at anytime. I'm curious if
any
of you would agree with my side.
-=-=-=-
Nope.
I think the child could learn that he's not in charge of his wants and
needs. If given the choice, he may decide that his obligation outweighs
his boredom or ability. But given NO choice, he may decide never to
play again because someone else's need was put over his own.
A child who has the choice to say "no" when he's done will more likely
say "yes" because he *can*.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: Misty Felner <misty@...>
I think I posted about this
before, but as in grade school my mother forced me and my brother and
sister
to take 6 yrs of piano lessons (what she deemed the amount of time to
make
us skilled enough to be able to pick up and play any sheet music we'd
like)
practicing 30 minutes a day.
-=-=-
Where did she get those numbers? And why didn't *she* do that rather
than force children to?
-=-=
When I was a child I hated that my mother made
me do this. I resented it so much that my brother and I used to cover
for
each other and lie about the practice we had done.
-=-=-=-
It made both of you liars and cheats, filled with resentment.
Bummer
--=---=-=-
.
By high school though I
actually started appreciating that my mother made me do it. I got into
choir and music and actually regretted having not practiced more so
that I
would be an even better player. In college when I needed a break I'd go
down to the lobby of my dorm and play.
-=-=-=-=-
You don't think that given space and the freedom to choose when to play
---and even to take a break when it was no longer fun---you don't think
you would have chosen to continue playing here and there? You don't
think you would have pursued it *ever* on your own? You don't think you
were capable of making those decisions?
-=-=-=-
Of the 3 of us I am the only one who as an adult still plays and owns
a piano.
-=-==-
But one out of three ain't bad, huh?
-=-=-=-
I think my mother was a little
bit excessive in her demands, but had she followed in the unschooling
approach I would have given it up after only a year or two. And would
not
have this great fulfillment in my life.
=-=-=-=-
You don't know that. Your siblings certainly do though!
=-==-=-
My husband and I have often discussed what we would do if dd joined
something, "say a team sport" and a quarter way or half way through the
season wanted to quit b/c she wasn't any good, bored, whatever. I feel
that
she has an obligation to the team and should stick it out for the
season.
My husband feels she should be able to quit at anytime. I'm curious if
any
of you would agree with my side.
-=-=-=-
Nope.
I think the child could learn that he's not in charge of his wants and
needs. If given the choice, he may decide that his obligation outweighs
his boredom or ability. But given NO choice, he may decide never to
play again because someone else's need was put over his own.
A child who has the choice to say "no" when he's done will more likely
say "yes" because he *can*.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
Ren Allen
" I think my mother was a little
bit excessive in her demands, but had she followed in the unschooling
approach I would have given it up after only a year or two. And would
not have this great fulfillment in my life."
If it's truly fulfilling for you, you WOULD have chosen it again.
You're still not seeing children in a very good light if you think
force and coercion are the only ways they'll find deep fulfillment in
an activity.
Most kids dabble with a variety of things and those interests get
honed more in later years.
I took piano. I finally convinced my Mum to let me stop lessons after
a few years and by the time I was 17 I wanted to take them again. Did
my folks help me? NO.
I still would like to play piano. My learning is my own.
My schooling and parents HINDERED the joy of learning, just like yours
did. That is not going to stop me from the joy of learning today.
If your child drops something for many years, what is the harm in
that? If they pick it up again, they learned something valuable by
being TRUSTED. If they don't pick it up again, it wasn't
interesting/valuable enough to them...either way they learned
something about what they love and don't love. Great!!
Forcing a child to continue with something they don't want to do, only
teaches them resentment and hurts your relationship.
I think it's really amusing when people credit their parents for
forcing them to do something they didn't enjoy and they eventually got
something from the activity.
Unschooled kids are getting deeply, richly involved in their interests
without all the yucky feelings surrounding it. They also have that
internal knowledge that the power to learn and learn well is within
THEM...not from the force of a parent. I cringe when I hear someone
crediting a parent for something they were forced to do against their
will....what a yucky way to feel about yourself, that you couldn't
have done something worthy without force.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
bit excessive in her demands, but had she followed in the unschooling
approach I would have given it up after only a year or two. And would
not have this great fulfillment in my life."
If it's truly fulfilling for you, you WOULD have chosen it again.
You're still not seeing children in a very good light if you think
force and coercion are the only ways they'll find deep fulfillment in
an activity.
Most kids dabble with a variety of things and those interests get
honed more in later years.
I took piano. I finally convinced my Mum to let me stop lessons after
a few years and by the time I was 17 I wanted to take them again. Did
my folks help me? NO.
I still would like to play piano. My learning is my own.
My schooling and parents HINDERED the joy of learning, just like yours
did. That is not going to stop me from the joy of learning today.
If your child drops something for many years, what is the harm in
that? If they pick it up again, they learned something valuable by
being TRUSTED. If they don't pick it up again, it wasn't
interesting/valuable enough to them...either way they learned
something about what they love and don't love. Great!!
Forcing a child to continue with something they don't want to do, only
teaches them resentment and hurts your relationship.
I think it's really amusing when people credit their parents for
forcing them to do something they didn't enjoy and they eventually got
something from the activity.
Unschooled kids are getting deeply, richly involved in their interests
without all the yucky feelings surrounding it. They also have that
internal knowledge that the power to learn and learn well is within
THEM...not from the force of a parent. I cringe when I hear someone
crediting a parent for something they were forced to do against their
will....what a yucky way to feel about yourself, that you couldn't
have done something worthy without force.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ellen Christian
How would you deal with a child who decided they wanted to join a sport - you paid for them to join the team, bought their uniform t-shirt, bought their sports equipment, etc. and after a few lessons they decided they wanted to quick.
You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The money is non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another sport. Do you just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for another sport/activity at this point? Do you tell them they can quit if they like but then they will have to wait until next season to do something different?
Ellen
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
My husband and I have often discussed what we would do if dd joined
something, "say a team sport" and a quarter way or half way through the
season wanted to quit b/c she wasn't any good, bored, whatever. I feel
that
she has an obligation to the team and should stick it out for the
season.
My husband feels she should be able to quit at anytime. I'm curious if
any
of you would agree with my side.
-=-=-=-
Nope.
I think the child could learn that he's not in charge of his wants and
needs. If given the choice, he may decide that his obligation outweighs
his boredom or ability. But given NO choice, he may decide never to
play again because someone else's need was put over his own.
A child who has the choice to say "no" when he's done will more likely
say "yes" because he *can*.
Ellen LaFleche-Christian - Garden Zone 4
Moonlight Creations Jewelry & Gifts http://moonlight-creations-jewelry.com
Receive a recipe every day http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARecipeADay/
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The money is non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another sport. Do you just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for another sport/activity at this point? Do you tell them they can quit if they like but then they will have to wait until next season to do something different?
Ellen
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
My husband and I have often discussed what we would do if dd joined
something, "say a team sport" and a quarter way or half way through the
season wanted to quit b/c she wasn't any good, bored, whatever. I feel
that
she has an obligation to the team and should stick it out for the
season.
My husband feels she should be able to quit at anytime. I'm curious if
any
of you would agree with my side.
-=-=-=-
Nope.
I think the child could learn that he's not in charge of his wants and
needs. If given the choice, he may decide that his obligation outweighs
his boredom or ability. But given NO choice, he may decide never to
play again because someone else's need was put over his own.
A child who has the choice to say "no" when he's done will more likely
say "yes" because he *can*.
Ellen LaFleche-Christian - Garden Zone 4
Moonlight Creations Jewelry & Gifts http://moonlight-creations-jewelry.com
Receive a recipe every day http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARecipeADay/
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Ellen Christian <scentednights2002@...>
How would you deal with a child who decided they wanted to join a
sport - you
paid for them to join the team, bought their uniform t-shirt, bought
their
sports equipment, etc. and after a few lessons they decided they wanted
to
quick.
You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The money is
non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another
sport. Do you
just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for another
sport/activity at
this point? Do you tell them they can quit if they like but then they
will have
to wait until next season to do something different?
-=-=-=-=-
Duncan wanted to take karate. I paid for two classes. He got the
uniform. He decided it was something he wanted to do. We paid for a
month. After two more lessons, he was frightened by one of the really
big "bear" instructors. Didn't wan t o go back. I suggested he go back
one more time. He did, but didn't want to go back again. Done.
Finished. He may decide to pick it up again. Hard to tell.
He wanted to take fencing. I fell in love with the sport and joined
him. He quit. I'm still going. Who'da thunk??
I would tell him that that was fine. He could quit now and try again
sometime in the future if ge got interested in it again.
He knows the value of money. He knows we can't afford every little
thing. He also knows that we will try to do whatever we can to help him
achieve his goals. So if it's a matter of money, he's willing to wait.
He knows that he can quit and go back if he ever has a desire to. he
knows that there are no strings attached to what we give him/do for him.
We haven't run into the above situation, but if we did, he's understand
and be OK with that. He trusts us not to lie or make him do things he's
uncomfortable with. He also knows that we would try to give him
whatever we can..
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: Ellen Christian <scentednights2002@...>
How would you deal with a child who decided they wanted to join a
sport - you
paid for them to join the team, bought their uniform t-shirt, bought
their
sports equipment, etc. and after a few lessons they decided they wanted
to
quick.
You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The money is
non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another
sport. Do you
just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for another
sport/activity at
this point? Do you tell them they can quit if they like but then they
will have
to wait until next season to do something different?
-=-=-=-=-
Duncan wanted to take karate. I paid for two classes. He got the
uniform. He decided it was something he wanted to do. We paid for a
month. After two more lessons, he was frightened by one of the really
big "bear" instructors. Didn't wan t o go back. I suggested he go back
one more time. He did, but didn't want to go back again. Done.
Finished. He may decide to pick it up again. Hard to tell.
He wanted to take fencing. I fell in love with the sport and joined
him. He quit. I'm still going. Who'da thunk??
I would tell him that that was fine. He could quit now and try again
sometime in the future if ge got interested in it again.
He knows the value of money. He knows we can't afford every little
thing. He also knows that we will try to do whatever we can to help him
achieve his goals. So if it's a matter of money, he's willing to wait.
He knows that he can quit and go back if he ever has a desire to. he
knows that there are no strings attached to what we give him/do for him.
We haven't run into the above situation, but if we did, he's understand
and be OK with that. He trusts us not to lie or make him do things he's
uncomfortable with. He also knows that we would try to give him
whatever we can..
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
Lesa McMahon-Lowe
>>>If it's truly fulfilling for you, you WOULD have chosen it again.You're still not seeing children in a very good light if you think
force and coercion are the only ways they'll find deep fulfillment in
an activity.<<<
Yeah, ditto... forcing someone to do something does not cause deep
fulfillment... only resentment over time.
~*~*~
Lesa M.
LIFE Academy
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***How would you deal with a child who decided they wanted to join a
sport - you paid for them to join the team, bought their uniform t-shirt,
bought their sports equipment, etc. and after a few lessons they decided
they wanted to quit. ***
I'd let him quit.
As adults we have more experience in the world and we know better what
kinds of activities we might enjoy making a commitment to. Even so
sometimes we start a thing and discover it's not what we expected,
doesn't fulfill us the way we thought it might, doesn't give us what we
hoped to get from it.
I think it would be a terrible waste of time for anyone to keep doing
something that wasn't good for them, emotionally or spiritually or
physically or whatever.
And I think it's dangerous, really, to set up a feeling in our kids that
they have to stick it out if they hate something. None of us would want
our daughters to stick it out if her boyfriend was abusing her. None of
us would want our teens to stay if the priest was touching them. None of
us would want our kids to "stick it out" if an employer was cheating
them.
Having the power to make choices helps us learn to make good choices. It
gives us experience and insight into ourselves.
I also think if a kid knows he will have to stick with a thing even if it
turns out he hates it, he will be less likely to try other things for
fear of being trapped in a situation he cannot abide. The freedom to
choose will let our kids try many things, will open up the world to them
and help them learn more about themselves and everything else.
***You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The money is
non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another sport.
Do you just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for another
sport/activity at this point? Do you tell them they can quit if they like
but then they will have to wait until next season to do something
different?***
Sometimes when something is "non refundable" it really is refundable and
you just have to ask.
Sometimes parents can borrow money or volunteer in exchange for a childs
participation.
Sometimes parents can find a different group or organize a group of their
own for the same kind of experience.
Deb Lewis
sport - you paid for them to join the team, bought their uniform t-shirt,
bought their sports equipment, etc. and after a few lessons they decided
they wanted to quit. ***
I'd let him quit.
As adults we have more experience in the world and we know better what
kinds of activities we might enjoy making a commitment to. Even so
sometimes we start a thing and discover it's not what we expected,
doesn't fulfill us the way we thought it might, doesn't give us what we
hoped to get from it.
I think it would be a terrible waste of time for anyone to keep doing
something that wasn't good for them, emotionally or spiritually or
physically or whatever.
And I think it's dangerous, really, to set up a feeling in our kids that
they have to stick it out if they hate something. None of us would want
our daughters to stick it out if her boyfriend was abusing her. None of
us would want our teens to stay if the priest was touching them. None of
us would want our kids to "stick it out" if an employer was cheating
them.
Having the power to make choices helps us learn to make good choices. It
gives us experience and insight into ourselves.
I also think if a kid knows he will have to stick with a thing even if it
turns out he hates it, he will be less likely to try other things for
fear of being trapped in a situation he cannot abide. The freedom to
choose will let our kids try many things, will open up the world to them
and help them learn more about themselves and everything else.
***You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The money is
non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another sport.
Do you just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for another
sport/activity at this point? Do you tell them they can quit if they like
but then they will have to wait until next season to do something
different?***
Sometimes when something is "non refundable" it really is refundable and
you just have to ask.
Sometimes parents can borrow money or volunteer in exchange for a childs
participation.
Sometimes parents can find a different group or organize a group of their
own for the same kind of experience.
Deb Lewis
Joanne
Hi Ellen,
Has this happened to you or is it hypothetical?
Money is sometimes tight here so if one of my kids wanted to join a
sport that involved paying a lot of uniforms and equipment, I would
expose them to it several times first to see if it's what they
thought it would be. Maybe we would go watch them play a few times
or I would try and get a game together with their friends. I did
that with Shawna and soccer. She wanted to join a soccer team so we
went and watched a few times. I also bought a soccer ball and we
took it with us to our homeschool group and she played with the kids
there. It ended up being enough for her and she decided she didn't
want to join the team after all...she just wanted to play with the
ball and play with her friends.
We watched the Karate Kid last month and Jacqueline wanted to take
lessons. While I was looking into it, I borrowed some karate videos
from the library for her. She did them every morning for a week and
then told me she changed her mind and wanted to take a dance class
instead.
Being a former dance studio owner, I told her all about the classes
and what it would be like. I found a place that gives the first
class free and she loved it. Instead of buying the leotards and
tights from the studio, I bought them at Walmart and saved quite a
bit. She enjoys the class very much but if she wanted to quit right
now, I would have no problem with it.
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com
--- In [email protected], Ellen Christian
<scentednights2002@...> wrote:
shirt, bought their sports equipment, etc. and after a few lessons
they decided they wanted to quick.
another sport. Do you just let them quit & explain that you cannot
pay for another sport/activity at this point? Do you tell them they
can quit if they like but then they will have to wait until next
season to do something different?
Has this happened to you or is it hypothetical?
Money is sometimes tight here so if one of my kids wanted to join a
sport that involved paying a lot of uniforms and equipment, I would
expose them to it several times first to see if it's what they
thought it would be. Maybe we would go watch them play a few times
or I would try and get a game together with their friends. I did
that with Shawna and soccer. She wanted to join a soccer team so we
went and watched a few times. I also bought a soccer ball and we
took it with us to our homeschool group and she played with the kids
there. It ended up being enough for her and she decided she didn't
want to join the team after all...she just wanted to play with the
ball and play with her friends.
We watched the Karate Kid last month and Jacqueline wanted to take
lessons. While I was looking into it, I borrowed some karate videos
from the library for her. She did them every morning for a week and
then told me she changed her mind and wanted to take a dance class
instead.
Being a former dance studio owner, I told her all about the classes
and what it would be like. I found a place that gives the first
class free and she loved it. Instead of buying the leotards and
tights from the studio, I bought them at Walmart and saved quite a
bit. She enjoys the class very much but if she wanted to quit right
now, I would have no problem with it.
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com
--- In [email protected], Ellen Christian
<scentednights2002@...> wrote:
>sport - you paid for them to join the team, bought their uniform t-
> How would you deal with a child who decided they wanted to join a
shirt, bought their sports equipment, etc. and after a few lessons
they decided they wanted to quick.
>money is non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in
> You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The
another sport. Do you just let them quit & explain that you cannot
pay for another sport/activity at this point? Do you tell them they
can quit if they like but then they will have to wait until next
season to do something different?
>joined
> Ellen
>
> kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
> My husband and I have often discussed what we would do if dd
> something, "say a team sport" and a quarter way or half waythrough the
> season wanted to quit b/c she wasn't any good, bored, whatever. Ifeel
> thatcurious if
> she has an obligation to the team and should stick it out for the
> season.
> My husband feels she should be able to quit at anytime. I'm
> anyand
> of you would agree with my side.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Nope.
>
> I think the child could learn that he's not in charge of his wants
> needs. If given the choice, he may decide that his obligationoutweighs
> his boredom or ability. But given NO choice, he may decide neverto
> play again because someone else's need was put over his own.likely
>
> A child who has the choice to say "no" when he's done will more
> say "yes" because he *can*.jewelry.com
>
>
> Ellen LaFleche-Christian - Garden Zone 4
> Moonlight Creations Jewelry & Gifts http://moonlight-creations-
> Receive a recipe every dayhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARecipeADay/
>Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Ellen Christian
Hi Joanne - Yes, it happened to me a few years ago. Sarah wanted to play softball. She had played it before & had enjoyed it so I paid for her to join the team, bought the team shirt, bought the necessary stuff she had outgrown, etc. She played it twice & hated the coach and wanted to quit. I did let her quit because I didn't think it was healthy to force her to do this if she really had a problem with the coach (who was a jerk btw). But we didn't have any money to sign her up for something different. We are in a very rural area and there are very very few "free" activities and no neighborhood children to play with. She understood why we couldn't sign her up for something else.
On the other hand, she was in soccer last season and the coach was HORRID. I mean truly nasty. She would criticize the other teams players by saying mean things about them (like their weight, etc.). When the girls came off the field she would say "what the hell was that?" meaning their playing wasn't good. She wouldn't put most of the girls out on the field because they weren't "good enough" to win so most of the girls just sat on the benches the whole time & played for 5 minutes. I was tempted to pull Sarah out simply because I don't feel that's a healthy environment for a child but Sarah wanted to stay in because she wanted to play in the games. She hated the practices & hated the coach (who actually made her CRY) but loved to play when she was on the field. So I let her stay in. However I did complain to the coach & spoke to several other parents who also complained to her "boss" and she was not chosen to coach this season thank heaven.
Ellen
Joanne <billyandjoanne@...> wrote:
Hi Ellen,
Has this happened to you or is it hypothetical?
Ellen LaFleche-Christian - Garden Zone 4
Moonlight Creations Jewelry & Gifts http://moonlight-creations-jewelry.com
Receive a recipe every day http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARecipeADay/
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On the other hand, she was in soccer last season and the coach was HORRID. I mean truly nasty. She would criticize the other teams players by saying mean things about them (like their weight, etc.). When the girls came off the field she would say "what the hell was that?" meaning their playing wasn't good. She wouldn't put most of the girls out on the field because they weren't "good enough" to win so most of the girls just sat on the benches the whole time & played for 5 minutes. I was tempted to pull Sarah out simply because I don't feel that's a healthy environment for a child but Sarah wanted to stay in because she wanted to play in the games. She hated the practices & hated the coach (who actually made her CRY) but loved to play when she was on the field. So I let her stay in. However I did complain to the coach & spoke to several other parents who also complained to her "boss" and she was not chosen to coach this season thank heaven.
Ellen
Joanne <billyandjoanne@...> wrote:
Hi Ellen,
Has this happened to you or is it hypothetical?
Ellen LaFleche-Christian - Garden Zone 4
Moonlight Creations Jewelry & Gifts http://moonlight-creations-jewelry.com
Receive a recipe every day http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARecipeADay/
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
How would you deal with a child who decided they wanted to join a sport - you paid for them to join the team, bought their uniform t-shirt, bought their sports equipment, etc. and after a few lessons they decided they wanted to quick.
You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The money is non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another sport. Do you just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for another sport/activity at this point? Do you tell them they can quit if they like but then they will have to wait until next season to do something different?
******
I'd let them quit. If they asked to try another sport AND I we really couldn't afford it, I'd say we can't afford it now, but let's figure out a way to do it as soon as we can. I would not say 'it's because you wasted our money on the last sport' or 'you can't start a new sport for this much time, because you quit the last one.' All those things are punitive and angry.
I just spend $75 to sign Dan up for soccer this coming August. He asked several weeks ago. We talked about what soccer would involve -- wearing a uniform and real shoes (only mentioned because those are enough to dissuade Andy from most sports), regular practices, rules, shin pads, etc. I checked back with him several times, and yep, he still wants very much to play soccer. When I told him this morning that I'd signed him up for soccer, he was thrilled!
Andy has recently asked for archery lessons, but only once he's 10 in June. I don't know why he wants to wait, but it's his choice not mine. I've been looking for places he can learn archery. Before this, it's been horseback riding, bowling, and swimming. He loves riding but not for more than about 30 minutes at a time. He absolutely love bowling, so do that as often as we can (tho he hates the lane-switching in league style bowling, so we play free-style). He explored swimming, but has no desire to either wear a speedo or compete, so he chose to skip the available swim team here. Whatever he chooses to do with archery will be just fine with us.
When Will tried baseball for a summer season he loved it so much that we signed him up for 'fall ball.' Within two weeks, he had decided he hated fall ball, so he quit, with our support when the coach asked him to reconsider.
As for money spent -- the money's already gone, beating up on your kid's psyche won't bring that money back, and it won't bring any joy so don't do it. Then not only is the money wasted, so is that opportunity to love and truly support your child. Really nothing for your money spent.
Sylvia, Mom to
Will, 21 and out on his own
Andy, almost 10 and Dan, 5
Let the beauty you love be what you do -- Rumi
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You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The money is non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another sport. Do you just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for another sport/activity at this point? Do you tell them they can quit if they like but then they will have to wait until next season to do something different?
******
I'd let them quit. If they asked to try another sport AND I we really couldn't afford it, I'd say we can't afford it now, but let's figure out a way to do it as soon as we can. I would not say 'it's because you wasted our money on the last sport' or 'you can't start a new sport for this much time, because you quit the last one.' All those things are punitive and angry.
I just spend $75 to sign Dan up for soccer this coming August. He asked several weeks ago. We talked about what soccer would involve -- wearing a uniform and real shoes (only mentioned because those are enough to dissuade Andy from most sports), regular practices, rules, shin pads, etc. I checked back with him several times, and yep, he still wants very much to play soccer. When I told him this morning that I'd signed him up for soccer, he was thrilled!
Andy has recently asked for archery lessons, but only once he's 10 in June. I don't know why he wants to wait, but it's his choice not mine. I've been looking for places he can learn archery. Before this, it's been horseback riding, bowling, and swimming. He loves riding but not for more than about 30 minutes at a time. He absolutely love bowling, so do that as often as we can (tho he hates the lane-switching in league style bowling, so we play free-style). He explored swimming, but has no desire to either wear a speedo or compete, so he chose to skip the available swim team here. Whatever he chooses to do with archery will be just fine with us.
When Will tried baseball for a summer season he loved it so much that we signed him up for 'fall ball.' Within two weeks, he had decided he hated fall ball, so he quit, with our support when the coach asked him to reconsider.
As for money spent -- the money's already gone, beating up on your kid's psyche won't bring that money back, and it won't bring any joy so don't do it. Then not only is the money wasted, so is that opportunity to love and truly support your child. Really nothing for your money spent.
Sylvia, Mom to
Will, 21 and out on his own
Andy, almost 10 and Dan, 5
Let the beauty you love be what you do -- Rumi
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The money is
non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another
sport. Do you just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for
another sport/activity at this point?"
When a parent spends money on a sport (or any other activity)the point
is to broaden the child's world, help them enjoy an activity and
possibly learn something new about themselves or their world.
Forcing them to stay in, does none of that.
In fact, the money is MORE wasted if you make your child keep doing
something they find distasteful. They're learning to hate the thing
they're doing (not your real goal righ?) and resent you. The worst
part about it, is they'll be a LOT more relunctant to bring up
interests with you. They'll be darn sure NOT to ask to join anything
else, if it can turn into a disagreeable experience in which they are
unable to exercise free will.
Unschooling is about trust.
Children need to trust that you are their partner.
They need to trust their interests with you and trust that when
something becomes disagreeable, you will help them find solutions.
They can understand a budget. They will not be as understanding about
force...but they WILL learn to hide things from you. Not the best
environment for unschooling.
I turned Trevor off to baseball when he was younger, by pushing him to
finish the season when he wanted to quit. What was the TRUE issue? The
fact that my child wanted to quit, or what other people would think?
We let other parent's scorn influence us too often I believe. Screw
those other parents, I have to answer to my CHILD, not them.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another
sport. Do you just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for
another sport/activity at this point?"
When a parent spends money on a sport (or any other activity)the point
is to broaden the child's world, help them enjoy an activity and
possibly learn something new about themselves or their world.
Forcing them to stay in, does none of that.
In fact, the money is MORE wasted if you make your child keep doing
something they find distasteful. They're learning to hate the thing
they're doing (not your real goal righ?) and resent you. The worst
part about it, is they'll be a LOT more relunctant to bring up
interests with you. They'll be darn sure NOT to ask to join anything
else, if it can turn into a disagreeable experience in which they are
unable to exercise free will.
Unschooling is about trust.
Children need to trust that you are their partner.
They need to trust their interests with you and trust that when
something becomes disagreeable, you will help them find solutions.
They can understand a budget. They will not be as understanding about
force...but they WILL learn to hide things from you. Not the best
environment for unschooling.
I turned Trevor off to baseball when he was younger, by pushing him to
finish the season when he wanted to quit. What was the TRUE issue? The
fact that my child wanted to quit, or what other people would think?
We let other parent's scorn influence us too often I believe. Screw
those other parents, I have to answer to my CHILD, not them.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Pampered Chef Michelle
On 4/16/06, Ellen Christian <scentednights2002@...> wrote:
opportunity to try things. That does not mean complete things or accomplish
things. Just try them. Think of life as a huge smorgasborg. You can have
as much of it as you want. You can go through and try a little bit of this
and a little bit of that and see if you like it. If you do you can always
go get more. If you don't then you try something different until you find
that thing that you like.
I realize that activities cost money and aren't free. However, that doesn't
mean that the desire needs to be quashed by the limitation of funds. And
sometimes it is just the facts of life that limit us. For instance with
sports (since that is where you started) a child might try baseball and
decide that it isn't right. However another sport such as soccer might not
begin until the fall. Hopefully by then you will have the resources to be
able to let your child participate in another sport.
Mary Elayne takes gymnastics. She thought she might like it, but she wasn't
sure. I was hesitant to spend $150 a month for gymnastics classes. I did a
little searching and talking and found that our Y offers gymnastics classes
for only $30 a month and the coach was wonderful. So she agreed to try it
*and* the coach let her come to the first class for free. (I found out
later that his kids are also homeschooled.) She liked it and so has
continued. At one point she got really frustrated with gymnastics because
her cartwheels were not to her expectations. So we talked to the coaches
and they agreed to work with her so she decided that she woudl stay.
Everytime she has met an obstacle and thought of quitting we have talked
about what it is that is frustrating her and have been able to find a way to
get past that obstacle. The other day she finally did an almost perfect
cartwheel (after 2 years of gymnastics) and said to me on the way home, "I'm
so glad you got Coach Jessie to help me learn to do my cartwheels!" If she
were truly unhappy with gymnastics and we couldn't find a way to work with
the problem that she faced I would have no problems letting her quit.
Would I allow a child to choose to quit if they just said, "I want to
quit?" No. I would talk with the child and find out what it is about what
they are doing that they dislike. It may be at the end of our conversation
that I realize the child truly is unhappy and allow the child to quit the
activity. I would do the same if my co-parent came home one day and said,
"I want to quit work." I would talk with him about why he wants to quit,
what is frustrating him, whether he has talked to his manager (or someone
else) about the problem(s) and what he proposes to do if he does quit. The
same things I would talk to my child about.
Our children are fairly aware of our financial standings. They know that if
they truly want to do something we will work towards helping meet that
goal. I'll work harder on my business so we can afford it or Dan will find
a quick side job (fairly easy in the computer industry) to bring in a little
extra. However, if I had spent a large sum of money on a project and then
they quit doing it and wanted to do something else I would be honest that I
just can't afford XYZ program right now but perhaps we could attempt to do
something similar until we can afford it. For instance let's say it is an
art class they want to take but I can't afford. I would offer to buy them
some art supplies that they can experiment with until I can afford to pay
for the class.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Is $XXX worth more than your child's love of living? I look at life as the
> You have already spent $XXX on them joining this sport. The money is
> non-refundable and there is no extra money to put them in another sport. Do
> you just let them quit & explain that you cannot pay for another
> sport/activity at this point? Do you tell them they can quit if they like
> but then they will have to wait until next season to do something different?
opportunity to try things. That does not mean complete things or accomplish
things. Just try them. Think of life as a huge smorgasborg. You can have
as much of it as you want. You can go through and try a little bit of this
and a little bit of that and see if you like it. If you do you can always
go get more. If you don't then you try something different until you find
that thing that you like.
I realize that activities cost money and aren't free. However, that doesn't
mean that the desire needs to be quashed by the limitation of funds. And
sometimes it is just the facts of life that limit us. For instance with
sports (since that is where you started) a child might try baseball and
decide that it isn't right. However another sport such as soccer might not
begin until the fall. Hopefully by then you will have the resources to be
able to let your child participate in another sport.
Mary Elayne takes gymnastics. She thought she might like it, but she wasn't
sure. I was hesitant to spend $150 a month for gymnastics classes. I did a
little searching and talking and found that our Y offers gymnastics classes
for only $30 a month and the coach was wonderful. So she agreed to try it
*and* the coach let her come to the first class for free. (I found out
later that his kids are also homeschooled.) She liked it and so has
continued. At one point she got really frustrated with gymnastics because
her cartwheels were not to her expectations. So we talked to the coaches
and they agreed to work with her so she decided that she woudl stay.
Everytime she has met an obstacle and thought of quitting we have talked
about what it is that is frustrating her and have been able to find a way to
get past that obstacle. The other day she finally did an almost perfect
cartwheel (after 2 years of gymnastics) and said to me on the way home, "I'm
so glad you got Coach Jessie to help me learn to do my cartwheels!" If she
were truly unhappy with gymnastics and we couldn't find a way to work with
the problem that she faced I would have no problems letting her quit.
Would I allow a child to choose to quit if they just said, "I want to
quit?" No. I would talk with the child and find out what it is about what
they are doing that they dislike. It may be at the end of our conversation
that I realize the child truly is unhappy and allow the child to quit the
activity. I would do the same if my co-parent came home one day and said,
"I want to quit work." I would talk with him about why he wants to quit,
what is frustrating him, whether he has talked to his manager (or someone
else) about the problem(s) and what he proposes to do if he does quit. The
same things I would talk to my child about.
Our children are fairly aware of our financial standings. They know that if
they truly want to do something we will work towards helping meet that
goal. I'll work harder on my business so we can afford it or Dan will find
a quick side job (fairly easy in the computer industry) to bring in a little
extra. However, if I had spent a large sum of money on a project and then
they quit doing it and wanted to do something else I would be honest that I
just can't afford XYZ program right now but perhaps we could attempt to do
something similar until we can afford it. For instance let's say it is an
art class they want to take but I can't afford. I would offer to buy them
some art supplies that they can experiment with until I can afford to pay
for the class.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 15, 2006, at 12:18 AM, Misty Felner wrote:
getting very far. It would be really nice if I already had the skill.
Perhaps if my mother had made me take Japanese lessons, I would be
fluent today.
Perhaps I would hate anything and everything Japanese.
It *is* much easier to already have a skill than to acquire one. Some
skills we can pick up as a side effect of doing something we enjoy.
Some skills, will require more practice.
While we agree with people who say they're glad their parents made
them practice at something they now enjoy as adults because we too
would love to already have inside of us skills to do X, Y Z so we
could enjoy them now without the bother of learning, we don't see
the -- far more numerous (in your family's case 66%!) -- people who
say they hate "X" because their parents made them do it as a child.
While having skills is great, if we force practice on kids the far
more likely outcome is that they will want to stay far far away from
it once they're adults. How many people leave school wanting nothing
to do with learning after 12 years of practice. How many people don't
read because of the bad associations they have with school and being
made to practice reading?
Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> By high school though IMy daughter and I have been messing about with Japanese for years not
> actually started appreciating that my mother made me do it.
getting very far. It would be really nice if I already had the skill.
Perhaps if my mother had made me take Japanese lessons, I would be
fluent today.
Perhaps I would hate anything and everything Japanese.
It *is* much easier to already have a skill than to acquire one. Some
skills we can pick up as a side effect of doing something we enjoy.
Some skills, will require more practice.
While we agree with people who say they're glad their parents made
them practice at something they now enjoy as adults because we too
would love to already have inside of us skills to do X, Y Z so we
could enjoy them now without the bother of learning, we don't see
the -- far more numerous (in your family's case 66%!) -- people who
say they hate "X" because their parents made them do it as a child.
While having skills is great, if we force practice on kids the far
more likely outcome is that they will want to stay far far away from
it once they're adults. How many people leave school wanting nothing
to do with learning after 12 years of practice. How many people don't
read because of the bad associations they have with school and being
made to practice reading?
Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>Children need to trust that you are their partner.They need to trust their interests with you and trust that when
something becomes disagreeable, you will help them find solutions.>>
This becomes very important later on too. I want my teen and almost teen to trust that I am a safe person to come to when something feels wrong to them. I want them to know that I am someone they can call without fear to drive them home from a party that's getting uncomfortable. Or that I am someone they can trust when needing sensitive advice. That kind of trust builds up over years.
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>