Christe Bruderlin

Hello,

I've been lurking for a bit (much longer at AlwaysUnschooled) and have read quite a bit (from AlwaysUnschooled archives, a few books, and several unschooler Websites). I keep thinking this is not for me and that maybe I am the "relaxed ecclectic" type, but then I find myself continuing to read and learn (sort of the attracted and repulsed feeling -- and I don't mean repulsed in a nauseated way, just in a push-pull way).

I have typical (from what I've read) concerns about screen controls (TV, videogame, computer) and food controls. My children are very young (3, 1 and in utero :) and so it isn't a huge issue yet, but this is primarily due to lack of exposure (which goes a bit against one of the interesting discussions I read about a "big life" at AlwaysUnschooled). My daughter (3) went to preschool temporarily (yuck).

This email might be too unorganized and stream-of consciousness, but maybe it will resonate with others who went through (or are going through) these feelings on their journey. Anyway, I read some of the typical days of unschoolers and the thought of sitting around watching TV all day or playing video games all day just freaks me out. I know this isn't always the case, but it is the case on the majority of the "what unschooling looks like at our house today" posts I have read look like. I have gone through this in my head repeatedly. Why does it bother me? Would it bother me if they were reading or doing math problems? Yes. A largely sedentary lifestyle would bother me. And something about the idea that teachers and parents shouldn't teach, but that TV and videogames should (or be learned from) seems odd to me -- although I totally get (and passionately) the reasoning behind avoiding institutionalized school. I realize some of these are "my" issues...I just don't
enjoy sitting around much at all, not a big TV person, sports fan, etc.

Likewise, on the food controls, again, not really an issue for us in our rather organic, vegetarian household (also breastfeeding) thus far since the kids are young (I do not restrict at parties, etc., but have explained why I don't eat meat to the older one), but I could see it becoming an issue very easily. I know one friend who is leaning toward unschooling and her daughter has no limits on anything unless it directly impacts safety (e.g. car seat) and at 3-1/2 she is significantly overweight, has 2 cavities, and basically watches reruns of princess movies for 10 hours a day. Her mom can barely get her to go to the park (and does not force her). Now, maybe the weight and cavities are genetic, but I can't help but think it might have a bit to do with all the cookies and candy and the utter lack of fruits, veggies, etc. in her diet. And I agree, she might be learning tons from repeating princess movies. Who knows? Still, anecdotally, we can all say, well "Uncle Joe
smoked, drank, and never ate a vegetable and lived to 102!", but I am fairly convinced that, except for a few lucky, genetically blessed individuals, diet and lifestyle play a strong role in one's health. With my friend's little girl, I also think that her diet might be causing her to be low energy, etc. All of this, of course, makes mom's life easier in some ways, because her daughter will literally sit there all day, has few tantrums, etc., but I am honestly happier that my daughter does lots of other things and eats a healthy, varied diet, even though that means we have some "rules." Anyway, we all have anectdotal examples of someone who does this or doesn't do that, but those don't convince me (and I can poke all sorts of holes into my own anectdotal story above!). Research I've read critically (as in looking at who did the study, biases, etc.) does influence me, I admit, and a lot of what I've seen in research and in life has led me to the idea that very young
children generally do not make healthy choices when given total freedom.

These are my rules currently (will not be surprised or offended by attacks on these):

Food: 5 colors on the plate at every meal (we make a game of it, and she counts and corrects me if there are only 4, etc.). Try one bite of everything on your plate (because "sometimes it takes our tummies and our tongues lots of tastes to learn to like something new," which she has always been fine with). Kids do not have to finish their plates or anything like that. We let our tummies tell us when we are hungry or full. There is a snack shelf in the fridge at her height full of snacks (all things she loves, but all pretty healthy) that she can access whenever she wants. We do not have the TV on during mealtimes. On sweets, I'm using a "don't offer, don't refuse" policy, but I will try to distract her sometimes at parties, etc., and I also explain to her why I eat the way I do. So while she has freedom throughout the day, I realize this isn't true freedom, because our household is quite restricted compared to other households. Also, she gets to help shop, but this
is at Whole Foods, so again, quite restrictive and not really total freedom.

TV/computer: She has 1/2 hour magnets (like money) with an "allowance" (not attached to rewards or punishments) of screen time per week (currently 8 hours) that she "spends" on TV and sometimes the computer. She can spend them however she wants, but has only been exposed to certain shows thus far, so only requests those. Pretty much most shows she is interested in right now would be considered "educational," but that is just the trend right now in the media directed towards little ones. She does watch a few things that aren't specifically categorized as educational (e.g. Cinderella) as well. We have always put movies on in different languages for fun (French and Spanish), so she watches in whichever of 3 languages she is in the mood for. She watches the most TV in the house (I watch 2-3 hours a week, hubby even less, my 1yo watches almost none).

We spend a lot of time outdoors and she goes to classes for things she is interested in (Expressercise which is a ballet/creative movement thing), swimming, etc. I started my 3yo in some stuff before she was too little to really show an "interest", just for fun, and some she has continued and others not. My 1yo goes to swimming (both love water and baths) and a sibling gymnastics class (fun for the 3 of us). Again, not really totally unschooling, because these are more directed by me than by them (I don't think my 1 yo would have said, "hey Mom, let's go swimming!" LOL).

I am happy with the choices I have made (although constantly examining them and the reasons for them because I know I am not perfect). I honestly have one of the only 3yos I know who eats such a varied diet and requests veggies randomly. She also does not ask for extra TV time...just when it is done, it is done. I do not think without the "rule" she would have tried many of these foods because, like most toddlers, she gravitated toward beige foods (I know so many kids who only eat beige J foods, I cannot even count LOL). I also think the screen time "rules" have helped me stay creative, because I don't have that crutch to fall back on (not that others use it as a crutch...just saying for me personally, it would make life A LOT easier if we sat together and watched TV a lot more than we do -- physically, monetarily, and in creative expenditures LOL).

So, these things go against the unschooling philosophy, I know, and I'm not entirely sure if that is something I can (or choose) to fix. I believe strongly in parts (though I know as a philosophy the parts are inextricable), but not in other parts. Therein lies my confusion. If I do not subscribe to all of these things (and after all of the reading and searching the archives, still have not been swayed on the food and screen time issues), does this mean I am a "relaxed eclectic" homeschooler and not quite an unschooler, or is there an unschooler group that uses some limits, etc.?

Although this might seem like a lot of topics in one, really, the question is one: Where do I fit if I don't believe in school (at home or in an institution), but I do believe in some limits and education about food, television, etc.?

Thanks for your thoughts and input!

Christe

P.s. I have looked for eclectic lists, but could not find anything (just some local groups -- but not my locality, and some religious groups that did not jive with my beliefs).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/10/2006 7:29:53 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time,
techwritercsbn@... writes:


but maybe it will resonate with others who went through (or are going
through


ohhhhhh i totally know how you feel, i'm the same way, this sounds amazing,
but will i be a good enough enabler for my children is my worry!

Mandy

(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)
(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

Hi Christie...

>>>>>In [email protected], Christe Bruderlin
<techwritercsbn@...> wrote: I keep thinking this is not for me and
that maybe I am the "relaxed ecclectic" type, but then I find myself
continuing to read and learn>>>>>>

Then something about it makes sense to you. I would go with that and
keep reading.
Good for you for wanting *more* for your kids than school can offer.
They're so young thoigh....do you really have to make a decision
about how you homeschool them now?

>>>> I have typical (from what I've read) concerns about screen
controls (TV, videogame, computer) and food controls.>>>>>

I think we all have (or had) issues with one or several of those.
And don't forget bedtime. That's another one! LOL!

>>>>>A largely sedentary lifestyle would bother me.>>>>>

It's important to me also, that my kids are physical. Not just for
the obvious benefits but my two older ones have some emotional
issues they struggle with and being physical really helps them. What
I do is make sure I buy fun physical stuff for them to use whenever
they want. We have (and your kids may be young for some of these) a
pogo stick, trampoline, roller blades, dirt bike, bicycles,
skateboards, trampoline, gigantic playset, swimming pool, jump
ropes, skip-its, frisbees, footballs, basketballs, hula hoops and a
ton more that I'm forgetting. The other thing I do is make sure I'm
being physical, on my own AND with them. We walk about 2 miles most
mornings also. I usually walk and they ride their bikes.

>>>>>>>I know one friend who is leaning toward unschooling and her
daughter has no limits on anything unless it directly impacts safety
(e.g. car seat) and at 3-1/2 she is significantly overweight, has 2
cavities, and basically watches reruns of princess movies for 10
hours a day.>>>>>>

What you described is not unschooling.

>>>>So, these things go against the unschooling philosophy, I know,
and I'm not entirely sure if that is something I can (or choose) to
fix. I believe strongly in parts (though I know as a philosophy the
parts are inextricable), but not in other parts. Therein lies my
confusion. If I do not subscribe to all of these things (and after
all of the reading and searching the archives, still have not been
swayed on the food and screen time issues), does this mean I am
a "relaxed eclectic" homeschooler and not quite an unschooler, or is
there an unschooler group that uses some limits, etc.? Although this
might seem like a lot of topics in one, really, the question is
one: Where do I fit if I don't believe in school (at home or in an
institution), but I do believe in some limits and education about
food, television, etc.? >>>>>>

Unschooling means not doing school at home. This list discusses
radical unschooling which extends that trust into other areas of
life. If you're looking for an unschooling list/group/board that
only discusses unschooling as in not-doing-school but does not
extend that trust into other areas, I'm sure there has to be some
out there. I bet some of the members here can help you out with
that. But even if you do find another group, don't unsub
here....keep reading because like you said, something about it
attracts you to it. And don't worry so much about the name you use.

Well, I hope some of this helped. Let us know how it goes!

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com

chotiius

--- In [email protected], "Joanne"
<billyandjoanne@...> wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>I know one friend who is leaning toward unschooling and her
> daughter has no limits on anything unless it directly impacts
safety
> (e.g. car seat) and at 3-1/2 she is significantly overweight, has
2
> cavities, and basically watches reruns of princess movies for 10
> hours a day.>>>>>>
>
> What you described is not unschooling.

<....snip....>

>
> >>>>So, these things go against the unschooling philosophy, I
know,
> and I'm not entirely sure if that is something I can (or choose)
to
> fix. I believe strongly in parts (though I know as a philosophy
the
> parts are inextricable), but not in other parts. Therein lies my
> confusion. If I do not subscribe to all of these things (and
after
> all of the reading and searching the archives, still have not been
> swayed on the food and screen time issues), does this mean I am
> a "relaxed eclectic" homeschooler and not quite an unschooler, or
is
> there an unschooler group that uses some limits, etc.? Although
this
> might seem like a lot of topics in one, really, the question is
> one: Where do I fit if I don't believe in school (at home or in
an
> institution), but I do believe in some limits and education about
> food, television, etc.? >>>>>>
>
> Unschooling means not doing school at home. This list discusses
> radical unschooling which extends that trust into other areas of
> life.

If you don't mind me jumping in here, you've just made a pretty big
contradiction.

First, I see nothing in the 'description' of this group that defines
it as 'radical'. Rather, it says this:

<EM>A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling.
Ask experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find
out how unschooling works in real families.

If you're familiar with John Holt's work, but unsure of how to begin
or what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for
you to discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with
natural learning and how it affects our entire lives. From parenting
issues to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come
explore the issues that unschooling families have dealt with in the
past and how to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling
lifestyle!</EM>

If what you say is true, either the group description and name are
out of date, or your definition of this group as 'radical
unschooling' is overstated and will tend to exclude people. Anybody
care to weigh in here?

Also, if this *IS* a 'radical unschooling' list, by your own
definition extending trust to other areas of life beyond education,
and if we extend trust to 3 year old girls to pursue their interests
which consists of watching 10 hours of princess movie reruns... how
is what this mother doing....not unschooling?

I'm not a radical unschooler. Like the OP above, I do have
certainly structure in my family. I'm not sure I'm an unschooler at
all. But I lean that direction MORE than I lean any other direction,
and that's why I've come here. Beyond that, I don't think I dare say
more about myself and my home life. I would not find it encouraging
to be told "You're not X or Y enough for this list."

I am genuinely bewildered, which may make me come across
belligerent. Would somebody help me out?

--angela, mom of 4, all at home since 1997

Joanne

As far as the list....I thought the description said "radical
unschooling". I see that I was wrong and I apologise.




--- In [email protected], "chotiius" <res0vi4u@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Joanne"
> <billyandjoanne@> wrote:
>
> >
> > >>>>>>>I know one friend who is leaning toward unschooling and
her
> > daughter has no limits on anything unless it directly impacts
> safety
> > (e.g. car seat) and at 3-1/2 she is significantly overweight,
has
> 2
> > cavities, and basically watches reruns of princess movies for 10
> > hours a day.>>>>>>
> >
> > What you described is not unschooling.
>
> <....snip....>
>
> >
> > >>>>So, these things go against the unschooling philosophy, I
> know,
> > and I'm not entirely sure if that is something I can (or choose)
> to
> > fix. I believe strongly in parts (though I know as a philosophy
> the
> > parts are inextricable), but not in other parts. Therein lies
my
> > confusion. If I do not subscribe to all of these things (and
> after
> > all of the reading and searching the archives, still have not
been
> > swayed on the food and screen time issues), does this mean I am
> > a "relaxed eclectic" homeschooler and not quite an unschooler,
or
> is
> > there an unschooler group that uses some limits, etc.? Although
> this
> > might seem like a lot of topics in one, really, the question is
> > one: Where do I fit if I don't believe in school (at home or in
> an
> > institution), but I do believe in some limits and education
about
> > food, television, etc.? >>>>>>
> >
> > Unschooling means not doing school at home. This list discusses
> > radical unschooling which extends that trust into other areas of
> > life.
>
> If you don't mind me jumping in here, you've just made a pretty
big
> contradiction.
>
> First, I see nothing in the 'description' of this group that
defines
> it as 'radical'. Rather, it says this:
>
> <EM>A list designed for those new to the philosophy of
unschooling.
> Ask experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find
> out how unschooling works in real families.
>
> If you're familiar with John Holt's work, but unsure of how to
begin
> or what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for
> you to discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with
> natural learning and how it affects our entire lives. From
parenting
> issues to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come
> explore the issues that unschooling families have dealt with in
the
> past and how to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling
> lifestyle!</EM>
>
> If what you say is true, either the group description and name are
> out of date, or your definition of this group as 'radical
> unschooling' is overstated and will tend to exclude people.
Anybody
> care to weigh in here?
>
> Also, if this *IS* a 'radical unschooling' list, by your own
> definition extending trust to other areas of life beyond
education,
> and if we extend trust to 3 year old girls to pursue their
interests
> which consists of watching 10 hours of princess movie reruns...
how
> is what this mother doing....not unschooling?
>
> I'm not a radical unschooler. Like the OP above, I do have
> certainly structure in my family. I'm not sure I'm an unschooler
at
> all. But I lean that direction MORE than I lean any other
direction,
> and that's why I've come here. Beyond that, I don't think I dare
say
> more about myself and my home life. I would not find it
encouraging
> to be told "You're not X or Y enough for this list."
>
> I am genuinely bewildered, which may make me come across
> belligerent. Would somebody help me out?
>
> --angela, mom of 4, all at home since 1997
>

Joanne

>>>>>3 year old girls to pursue their interests
which consists of watching 10 hours of princess movie reruns... how
is what this mother doing....not unschooling?>>>>>>


I'm not sure who said it...maybe Sandra, but if a child is watching 10
hours of the same movie everyday....why are they choosing that? What
was their other choice? There's nothing wrong with watching 10 hours of
tv...but for a 3-1/2 year old to choose that everyday, there's not
enough being introduced in their lives. The poster said that the mother
doesn't mind that she watches 10 hours a day because it gets the child
out of her hair (or something like that). That's not unschooling. I'm
not sure what it is. Unschooling is helping your child...bringing as
much of the world to them as you can. Where is the mother during these
10 hours. There with her, talking to her, hanging out with her....from
what she posted, probably not. I think a lot of people think
unschooling is just leaving your child alone to figure things out for
themselves and that's not the unschooling I know. When I was new to
unschooling and was reading at unschooling.com and reading posts by Ren
& Joyce & Pam & Mary & Sandra, I read about the ways they opened the
world up for their kids and when their kids chose to watch tv for 10
hours, it wasn't because they were escaping or had nothing else to
choose from.
I hope I explained myself better for you. If not, please feel free to
let me know and I'll try again.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 10, 2006, at 3:05 PM, Christe Bruderlin wrote:

> Now, maybe the weight and cavities are genetic, but I can't help
> but think it might have a bit to do with all the cookies and candy
> and the utter lack of fruits, veggies, etc. in her diet. And I
> agree, she might be learning tons from repeating princess movies.
> Who knows?

Why something is happening is more telling than what so it's really
had to answer that.

It seems odd that a 3 1/2 yo would choose to sit for 10 hours
watching movies so I'd guess there's some other factor.

*But* at 3 my daughter did like repetition, as I've heard many 3 yos
like. And she did watch 101 Dalmations over and over, often several
times in one day. It was what she (and apparently many 3 yos) need
and she got whatever she needed from that stage and moved on.

While I'm a big proponent of free access to food, I'd also encourage
people to make nutritious food easy if not easier than less
nutritious. Often kids grab snacky foods because they're easy. It's
easier to grab a cookie than wash a carrot. But a platter of carrot
sticks and something to dip them if delivered to kids can look a
whole lot better.

Also I wouldn't necessarily keep a steady supply of cookies "just
because". Bring in what the kids ask for. To put that in perspective
of "free access to food" I don't keep a steady supply of asparagus. I
just buy it when someone asks. I do buy berries when they're on sale
without being asked because I know they're a favorite. I do keep a
steady supply of Dove chocolates without being asked because we enjoy
them instead of a larger dessert. I don't keep a steady supply of
yogurt because it goes in and out of the list of favorites.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: chotiius <res0vi4u@...>

If what you say is true, either the group description and name are
out of date, or your definition of this group as 'radical
unschooling' is overstated and will tend to exclude people. Anybody
care to weigh in here?
-=-=-=-

Sure.

It's a beginners' unschooling list run by a bunch of radical
unschoolers. Because of that, many of the conversations run into
radical unschooling. It simply makes more sense---plus unschooling
works better when the children know their [arents trust in in ALL
ways/areas of their learning.

-=-==-.

Also, if this *IS* a 'radical unschooling' list, by your own
definition extending trust to other areas of life beyond education,
and if we extend trust to 3 year old girls to pursue their interests
which consists of watching 10 hours of princess movie reruns... how
is what this mother doing....not unschooling?

-=-=-=-

Radical unschooling DOES mean allowing a child to pursue her own
interests. BUT...most unschooling parents of three year olds would,
themselves, be DOing more than 10 hours of TV. It DOES happen that
children watch hour after hour of TV, but many children will chose the
TV when there's nothing else available. It really depends on WHY the
child is choosing ten hours of TV over, say, a trip to the park or
baking cookies or bouncing on the trampoline.

It's the *why* behind the action (or inaction).

-=-=-=-

I'm not a radical unschooler. Like the OP above, I do have
certainly structure in my family. I'm not sure I'm an unschooler at
all. But I lean that direction MORE than I lean any other direction,
and that's why I've come here. Beyond that, I don't think I dare say
more about myself and my home life. I would not find it encouraging
to be told "You're not X or Y enough for this list."

I am genuinely bewildered, which may make me come across
belligerent. Would somebody help me out?

-=-=-=-

Our goal here is to help you *get* to unschooling---to get over your
fears of letting go and trusting. NO ONE has to believe what we say or
do what we suggest. YOU get to choose!

Just sit tight and read. Take what you like. Disregard the rest.

But I bet you'll like what you read! <g>

Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow....


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

Deb

--- In [email protected], LuvnMomma24boys@... wrote:
>

>
> ohhhhhh i totally know how you feel, i'm the same way, this
>sounds >amazing,
> but will i be a good enough enabler for my children is my worry!
>
> Mandy
>
Are you interested in something? do you like to bake, run, paint,
read Victorian novels, travel, kayak, meditate, watch Sean Connery
movies, grow begonias...? If you have a life, it will be natural to
bring bits of that life into the house. The kids may take some, may
leave some, may head off into knights because they caught a bit of
you watching Sean Connery as King Arthur in First Knight. Or, they
may not. You are a *facilitater* - the same way you made safe spaces
for toddlers to toddle and cleared the yard for 4 yr olds to run
free, that's the same attitude as they get older - provide transport
to the bookstore, art supply store, dojo, park, grocery store, dance
studio, wherever. Mention that you saw thus and such concert, movie,
play and thought they might be interested. Check out local papers
for soccer leagues or dance studios or fishing tournaments.

Put it in another context: remember how it is when you start dating
someone? you study that person - their likes, dislikes, passions,
etc. If you find that this other person loves the TransSiberian
Orchestra and you notice that the group will be in the next town
over for a concert, you mention it and see if yor sweetie would like
to get tickets for it (or maybe arrange for the tickets as a
surprise). Same with your kids - become students of your kids -
their likes, dislikes, passions, etc and find ways to help them in
those pursuits. And bring your own interests to the table too - we
have gotten National Geographic for almost the entire 12 1/2 years
we've been married because DH likes it. When DS was about 2 1/2 he
found a map of Antarctica that came out of the magazine and was
enthralled - he carried that map around, practically slept with it,
for days, asking questions about things and drinking it all in. He's
now almost 8 and he still loves maps and globes and finding places.
For a while, his idea of a great game was for me to name a country
and he had to find it on a flat world map. Then he'd name a place
and I had to find it. He knew some of the larger/most recognizable
places (such as China, Russia, Canada, US, Brazil, Antarctica,
Australia) by location and shape before he could really read. At the
last summer Olympics, he got intrigued by one particular team and
looked up where that country was on the globe. We never -intended-
that the magazine or watching the Olympics be a 'teaching tool' -
those are just parts of our lives that we bring into the house.

--Deb

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 4/11/06, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Radical unschooling DOES mean allowing a child to pursue her own
> interests. BUT...most unschooling parents of three year olds would,
> themselves, be DOing more than 10 hours of TV. It DOES happen that
> children watch hour after hour of TV, but many children will chose the
> TV when there's nothing else available. It really depends on WHY the
> child is choosing ten hours of TV over, say, a trip to the park or
> baking cookies or bouncing on the trampoline.


Yes I would question if the parents are engaged in their children. My son
can be completely engrossed in a movie or video game and hear me open the
door to go to the garden and ZIP he is right there. He'll give up
Scooby-Doo for gardening. Not because he doesn't like Scooby-Doo but
because gardening is more interesting than Scooby-Doo and he can always go
back to Scooby-Doo. After we water the plants, turn the compost bin and
make a careful inspection of our plants looking for sprouting seeds and
critters that shouldn't belong then we can go back to do other things.

Usually given the option of tv or "something else" (cooking, gardening,
reading, creating, going to the park, etc.) my kids will choose "something
else" than tv.





--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


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