Re:Coersion
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/25/2004 12:26:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I'm about to go get my kids out of bed and coerce them. I see it as
coercion and am not denying it because it is what I'm going to do.
My kids are generally cooperative and even take initiative in helping
around the house - and will wash the dishes or do laundry once in a
while just because they notice it needs doing. They're also extremely
messy - leave stuff all over - trash, dirty dishes, toys, dirty
clothes, books, etc. A LOT of clutter everywhere - a LOT LOT!!
But today I'm going to get them up and insist that we all do housework
together for an hour.
Then we're going off to the beach with lots of friends and we'll be
there for TEN hours - campfire, etc.
If they don't help and the house isn't straightened up and cleaned up
significantly, I really don't want to go to spend the whole day and
evening at the beach, I want to stay home and clean the house. I have
VERY low standards and we've fallen below my low standards - dirty
smelly dishes, no clean clothes, a thick layer of dust, grubby
bathroom, and so much clutter everywhere that we can't walk safely
through the house. We have been very busy - out of the house all day
and evening for days in a row. (You'd think the house would not get so
messy when we're so seldom home, huh?)
I think they'll just do it when I ask - so maybe I won't have to feel
like I'm coercing them. They see the need and will want it done, too.
They'll comply with my request.
So maybe it isn't coercion - but, truth is, I intend for them to do it.
So - we haven't fully come around to no coercion in the housework area.
I LOVE the stuff people post about it - and it has helped me
tremendously to get perspective.
If my kids were littler, if I was starting earlier, I'd change the way
we've dealt with housework.
But, right now, I just want to go to the beach and have fun and then
NOT come home to a stinky, messy, gross house.
Unschooling and NonCoercive Parenting are not one and the same thing.
******************************
I've been reading this stuff, trying to figure out whether we use or have
used coersion regularly (I'm certain we have non-intentionally over the years.)
We don't have bedtimes, and haven't for most of Julian's life (since we began
homeschooling.) We don't have assigned chores.
But there HAVE been times we suggest strongly that he go to sleep, because
he's getting cranky and resisting it after too many days of short sleep. And he
always agrees. We ask him to do stuff around the house, and he has never
refused. Sometimes it's not immediate, and sometimes he doesn't feel like it, but
he recognizes that we all hate it, and he never refuses. When he was little
never questioned bedtimes or toothbrushing or was a difficult eater.
Maybe we're subtly coersive. Maybe he's just remarkably compliant. Or maybe
we just work as a team and he trusts us enough to just do the things we ask him
to do, knowing that we'll always do the same for him.
When we began unschooling, we realized we couldn't "Unschool Julian." We
realized that the thing that drew us to this was that we all really valued
learning and empowering one another. We became an Unschooling Family, and the adults
spend as much time being learning and doing things we love as Julian does. We
try to make decisions that will strengthen all of us, individually and
together. Julian supports and empowers me and Beth as much as we do him.
Today I was wrestling with an issue for the conference, and chatted with
Julian about it. He gave me an amazing idea I was missing entirely. Smart kid.
Good ideas.
I really don't know about the coersion thing at all. I can tell you he's
never "disobeyed," because we don't tend to give orders. He doesn't always make
the choices I would make, or even the ones I would prefer he make.
I bet that was clear as mud ;)
Kathryn
Come to the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference August 27-29 in Peabody, MA!
For more information, go to www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
I'm about to go get my kids out of bed and coerce them. I see it as
coercion and am not denying it because it is what I'm going to do.
My kids are generally cooperative and even take initiative in helping
around the house - and will wash the dishes or do laundry once in a
while just because they notice it needs doing. They're also extremely
messy - leave stuff all over - trash, dirty dishes, toys, dirty
clothes, books, etc. A LOT of clutter everywhere - a LOT LOT!!
But today I'm going to get them up and insist that we all do housework
together for an hour.
Then we're going off to the beach with lots of friends and we'll be
there for TEN hours - campfire, etc.
If they don't help and the house isn't straightened up and cleaned up
significantly, I really don't want to go to spend the whole day and
evening at the beach, I want to stay home and clean the house. I have
VERY low standards and we've fallen below my low standards - dirty
smelly dishes, no clean clothes, a thick layer of dust, grubby
bathroom, and so much clutter everywhere that we can't walk safely
through the house. We have been very busy - out of the house all day
and evening for days in a row. (You'd think the house would not get so
messy when we're so seldom home, huh?)
I think they'll just do it when I ask - so maybe I won't have to feel
like I'm coercing them. They see the need and will want it done, too.
They'll comply with my request.
So maybe it isn't coercion - but, truth is, I intend for them to do it.
So - we haven't fully come around to no coercion in the housework area.
I LOVE the stuff people post about it - and it has helped me
tremendously to get perspective.
If my kids were littler, if I was starting earlier, I'd change the way
we've dealt with housework.
But, right now, I just want to go to the beach and have fun and then
NOT come home to a stinky, messy, gross house.
Unschooling and NonCoercive Parenting are not one and the same thing.
******************************
I've been reading this stuff, trying to figure out whether we use or have
used coersion regularly (I'm certain we have non-intentionally over the years.)
We don't have bedtimes, and haven't for most of Julian's life (since we began
homeschooling.) We don't have assigned chores.
But there HAVE been times we suggest strongly that he go to sleep, because
he's getting cranky and resisting it after too many days of short sleep. And he
always agrees. We ask him to do stuff around the house, and he has never
refused. Sometimes it's not immediate, and sometimes he doesn't feel like it, but
he recognizes that we all hate it, and he never refuses. When he was little
never questioned bedtimes or toothbrushing or was a difficult eater.
Maybe we're subtly coersive. Maybe he's just remarkably compliant. Or maybe
we just work as a team and he trusts us enough to just do the things we ask him
to do, knowing that we'll always do the same for him.
When we began unschooling, we realized we couldn't "Unschool Julian." We
realized that the thing that drew us to this was that we all really valued
learning and empowering one another. We became an Unschooling Family, and the adults
spend as much time being learning and doing things we love as Julian does. We
try to make decisions that will strengthen all of us, individually and
together. Julian supports and empowers me and Beth as much as we do him.
Today I was wrestling with an issue for the conference, and chatted with
Julian about it. He gave me an amazing idea I was missing entirely. Smart kid.
Good ideas.
I really don't know about the coersion thing at all. I can tell you he's
never "disobeyed," because we don't tend to give orders. He doesn't always make
the choices I would make, or even the ones I would prefer he make.
I bet that was clear as mud ;)
Kathryn
Come to the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference August 27-29 in Peabody, MA!
For more information, go to www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese
"I really don't know about the coersion thing at all. I can tell you he's
never "disobeyed," because we don't tend to give orders. He doesn't always
make
the choices I would make, or even the ones I would prefer he make.
I bet that was clear as mud ;)
Kathryn"
I have been enjoying these posts so much, they are really making me think
hard about some of these issues. I guess what matters to me in my house is
that we do what feels good for all of us, no matter what "label" someone
else wants to apply to it. In regards to "Coersion", the way I view it is
that something coersive is something that is a demand, something forced.
Something non-coersive is a request - and my request or my children's
request to me can certainly carry with it explanation and persuasion and
persistance. If I have a request that is really important to me and that I
feel is vital, I'm going to say so, I'm going to say it loudly, I'm going to
say it often, I'm going to express how important it is to me and how my mood
and willingness to help out as part of the family are affected if that need
doesn't find a way to get met. My kids do the same to me and that helps me
know how important something is to them and why which often shifts me from
feeling too tired to help them with something tonight to choosing to put my
tiredness aside and do it because it's THAT important. Just like my kids
do, I feel it is important to push hard sometimes, to indicate how important
this is to mom, so that my needs can get met. We can be creative and fun
about it, I always want to incorporate their needs - whatever works for that
situation. My going into a discussion or a request with a specific goal in
mind doesn't make it a demand to me. It just means I have a focus. I'm
open to getting my need met differently than I may have in mind originally
if that helps all our needs get met.
There may be a thin line at times between what is persuasion and what is
coersion. I have only my own gut instinct and the reactions of my children
to tell me if I've crossed the line. I know in my own self I have a pretty
good sense of when someone has persuaded me - that is someone has explained
themselves and their needs to me and the importance of those needs so
clearly that I sense a shift in my own willingness to do something. They
have persuaded me - that means I understand them better, I care about them
and I make a choice to change my position and help them willingly. It feels
pretty clear to me when I feel forced or coerced or not given much of a real
choice to make. I feel trapped and angry. I think it's the same for my
kids and so I go by how their reactions as to whether I need a new tack on
how I'm doing something.
So I don't view Pam's situation as coersive the way she described it, but
even if she wants to call it coersive, I have done the same in my house and
not felt it to be forcing - and my children have not responded with feelings
of being forced.
Not sure if that makes the mud clearer, but those are my thoughts...
Joan
never "disobeyed," because we don't tend to give orders. He doesn't always
make
the choices I would make, or even the ones I would prefer he make.
I bet that was clear as mud ;)
Kathryn"
I have been enjoying these posts so much, they are really making me think
hard about some of these issues. I guess what matters to me in my house is
that we do what feels good for all of us, no matter what "label" someone
else wants to apply to it. In regards to "Coersion", the way I view it is
that something coersive is something that is a demand, something forced.
Something non-coersive is a request - and my request or my children's
request to me can certainly carry with it explanation and persuasion and
persistance. If I have a request that is really important to me and that I
feel is vital, I'm going to say so, I'm going to say it loudly, I'm going to
say it often, I'm going to express how important it is to me and how my mood
and willingness to help out as part of the family are affected if that need
doesn't find a way to get met. My kids do the same to me and that helps me
know how important something is to them and why which often shifts me from
feeling too tired to help them with something tonight to choosing to put my
tiredness aside and do it because it's THAT important. Just like my kids
do, I feel it is important to push hard sometimes, to indicate how important
this is to mom, so that my needs can get met. We can be creative and fun
about it, I always want to incorporate their needs - whatever works for that
situation. My going into a discussion or a request with a specific goal in
mind doesn't make it a demand to me. It just means I have a focus. I'm
open to getting my need met differently than I may have in mind originally
if that helps all our needs get met.
There may be a thin line at times between what is persuasion and what is
coersion. I have only my own gut instinct and the reactions of my children
to tell me if I've crossed the line. I know in my own self I have a pretty
good sense of when someone has persuaded me - that is someone has explained
themselves and their needs to me and the importance of those needs so
clearly that I sense a shift in my own willingness to do something. They
have persuaded me - that means I understand them better, I care about them
and I make a choice to change my position and help them willingly. It feels
pretty clear to me when I feel forced or coerced or not given much of a real
choice to make. I feel trapped and angry. I think it's the same for my
kids and so I go by how their reactions as to whether I need a new tack on
how I'm doing something.
So I don't view Pam's situation as coersive the way she described it, but
even if she wants to call it coersive, I have done the same in my house and
not felt it to be forcing - and my children have not responded with feelings
of being forced.
Not sure if that makes the mud clearer, but those are my thoughts...
Joan
Robyn Coburn
<<<When we began unschooling, we realized we couldn't "Unschool Julian." We
realized that the thing that drew us to this was that we all really valued
learning and empowering one another. We became an Unschooling Family, and
the adults spend as much time being learning and doing things we love as
Julian does. We try to make decisions that will strengthen all of us,
individually and together. Julian supports and empowers me and Beth as much
as we do him.>>>
I love this! It is not just Jayn who is being liberated by Unschooling, but
our entire family.
There is always further to go, and more realizations to have. Thanks.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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realized that the thing that drew us to this was that we all really valued
learning and empowering one another. We became an Unschooling Family, and
the adults spend as much time being learning and doing things we love as
Julian does. We try to make decisions that will strengthen all of us,
individually and together. Julian supports and empowers me and Beth as much
as we do him.>>>
I love this! It is not just Jayn who is being liberated by Unschooling, but
our entire family.
There is always further to go, and more realizations to have. Thanks.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004