Ren Allen

"The artistic and creative imaginings to make the planetscapes
and creatures/aliens and all - not to mention how they tie in to the
model making, CG, make up/costume fields."

Ah see, that's my favorite part. The costumes are so cool, but it's
the makeup I'm always watching (betcha can't guess why..wink, wink).

There's so much art involved in movie making. There's the storytelling
factor, and the science end of it, but it's the artistry that really
grabs me. Star wars is amazing that way.

We had a Harry Potter marathon a couple weeks ago...it was great. It
sparked all kinds of fun around here, from wand making, to dress-up
and acting....yep, it's never "just" a movie marathon.
Anything that fascinates a person can lead to all sorts of learning.
But more importantly, it leads to FUN.:) when families are having fun,
they're connecting and learning.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Danielle Conger

Ren Allen wrote:

> Ah see, that's my favorite part. The costumes are so cool, but it's
> the makeup I'm always watching (betcha can't guess why..wink, wink).

Emily is really into costume design and story development, so one of our
favorite things to do is to watch all the bonus features included with
so many dvd's. She's into listening to all the costuming decisions that
go on behind the scenes, with all the minute details that costume
designers take into account, all the way down to belt buckles.

She also likes to watch the storyboarding and the way the story develops
and morphs throughout the process from conception to screen.

Once we get our basement great room finished, it will include a *huge*
art center made from our old kitchen island that we replaced. It's a
giant L shape, and the breakfast bar leg will be for art while the other
leg will enable me to have the sewing machine out all the time. Em's
looking forward to designing her own costumes.

I also found these gorgeous storyboarding books by moleskine that we're
going to try to duplicate by running some pages off on the computer.

Loads of inspiration through watching movies, and that doesn't even
begin to touch upon all the learning connections and conversations they
inspire.

--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

Angela Avery

We just got a new TV. It has a bigger screen than the one we had. Notice I
didn't say "big" screen, just bigger. (smile)
The boys thought it was the coolest thing and immediately set out to watch
the entire Star Wars series. This was just 2 weeks ago so I can really
relate to the Star Wars marathon.
Being a Star Wars fan myself I certainly didn't mind.
Just a few days ago we watched a "Modern Marvels" show titled "Combat
Gear". Pretty neat stuff for young boys. It talked about combat gear
through history and the future.
There was one bit about a helmet prototype during WWI or WW II ( I can't
remember that detail now) that never actually made it through to
production. "Wow! It's a stormtrooper helmet!" And it almost was!
Stormtrooper of the Star Wars type.
So there was a connection.
Now there is a stack of library books on the counter. One is true WWII
stories. One is Greek history, one is an Usborne Medieval World book.
More connections made from that show.
My ten year old has been working on his Artist achievement for Webelos.
There is one requirement that asks to talk about careers in art with your
teacher. So that would be me (smile). So he mentioned all of the careers
that he could think of in the field of art. Sword making, metalsmithing,
movie making...
His first ideas were those that are the closest things to what he loves.
For me sword making wouldn't be the first thing I thought of when I thought
of jobs in the art field. But there it is again, another connection.
Combat and combat gear. Real and fiction. Connections being made for them
and leading them into new places to explore.
Just my recent experience.
Angela in St. Louis

:
>
>
> Danielle wrote -
> Loads of inspiration through watching movies, and that doesn't even
> begin to touch upon all the learning connections and conversations they
> inspire.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paige

>> So he mentioned all of the careers
> that he could think of in the field of art. Sword making,
metalsmithing, movie making...
> His first ideas were those that are the closest things to what he
loves.
> For me sword making wouldn't be the first thing I thought of when I
thought of jobs in the art field.

When I read the first sentence, I, too, thought, "Sword making is
art?" But as I thought about it, I can really see it...just think of
all the artistic thought that goes into making beautiful swords. (My
dh is really big into swords, so we look at a lot of them.)
:)
Paige

Patti Douglas

Hi! Just jumping right in here...

My daughters watched the movie of the Cats play. What
educational value is there? Hmmm...well, let's see...

We researched what the actors and actresses looked
like without their makeup. We also did a little
research to try to see where they are now. (And when
Sir John Mills died, I read the blurb from the paper
out loud, and they knew who I was talking about.
Also, when we see something with Hayley Mills, I
remind them who her father was.)

We borrowed the book, T.S.Elliott's "Old Possum's Book
of Practical Cats," which the play is based on, and I
ended up having to BUY a copy of it, because the
library wanted theirs back!

We compared the lyrics of the songs to the poems they
were based on. We did math pages that were related to
Cats. (I made the pages and used pictures from the
movie on the pages.)

We went to see the play live, which was a cultural
experience for us. :)

Patti

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elizabeth roberts

And if the sword is etched, then there's some serious artwork in it besides just the form of it..and hilts can be extremely intricate as well! :-)

Beth

Paige <paigehughes1972@...> wrote:
>> So he mentioned all of the careers
> that he could think of in the field of art. Sword making,
metalsmithing, movie making...
> His first ideas were those that are the closest things to what he
loves.
> For me sword making wouldn't be the first thing I thought of when I
thought of jobs in the art field.

When I read the first sentence, I, too, thought, "Sword making is
art?" But as I thought about it, I can really see it...just think of
all the artistic thought that goes into making beautiful swords. (My
dh is really big into swords, so we look at a lot of them.)
:)
Paige





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

--- In [email protected], elizabeth roberts
<joyfullzoo@...> wrote:
>
> And if the sword is etched, then there's some serious artwork in it
>besides just the form of it..and hilts can be extremely intricate as
>well! :-)
>
> Beth
Many years ago I took a 'field trip' through my high school, to Spain.
One stop was in Toledo, well known for it's swords and other
metalworking. I picked up a small (unsharpened) sword for my brother -
thought he'd like it as decor. The hilt wasn't too too fancy but the
entire length of the blade had been decorated and then blackened and
polished so it had shiny metal and matte black areas - really
beautiful. I doubt it would be serviceable for fighting (even if
sharpened) but it would have been a lovely ceremonial piece.

--Deb

Deb

Do you Star Wars fans have the Star Wars version of Risk? It is really
cool (it even has Order 66!) We played last night and today DH and DS
watched episode 3 (again) - I called home to say hi just as they were
executing Order 66. The music in that section is particularly
effective, IMO.

--Deb

Danielle Conger

Patti Douglas wrote:

>
> We researched what the actors and actresses looked
> like without their makeup. We also did a little
> research to try to see where they are now. (And when
> Sir John Mills died, I read the blurb from the paper
> out loud, and they knew who I was talking about.
> Also, when we see something with Hayley Mills, I
> remind them who her father was.)
>
> We borrowed the book, T.S.Elliott's "Old Possum's Book
> of Practical Cats," which the play is based on, and I
> ended up having to BUY a copy of it, because the
> library wanted theirs back!
>
> We compared the lyrics of the songs to the poems they
> were based on. We did math pages that were related to
> Cats. (I made the pages and used pictures from the
> movie on the pages.)
>
> We went to see the play live, which was a cultural
> experience for us. :)


Wow! See, this kind of in depth exploration is exactly the kind of thing
*I* love to do--just bouncing around from connection to connection
(though leaving out the whole math worksheet thing--erp!).

However, my *kids* don't always get as excited as I do, so I've found
following their cues of excitement and interest to be crucial in leading
our unschooling lives, being sure to stop the moment I see fidgeting or
eyes glazing over. Generally, I'll just nonchalantly try to say
something like, "Wow, I'm just really interested in this, so I'm going
to keep going--should I read by myself now?" Invariably, even if they're
done, they'll be open to me reporting back to them some interesting/
weird little tidbit.

Especially, on an unschooling basics list, I think it's important to
guard against presenting life and the following of interests in a way
that could be taken for building a great big unit study around a movie,
tv show or anything for that matter.



--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

S Drag-teine

Safety issues are non-negotiable for me... like holding hands when you cross
the street and bucking up in the car. So I was with another unschooler. She
and her child were riding with us and her daughter didn't want to put on her
seat belt. Her mother was fine with this but I wasn't and I told her
daughter that I while I respect her right to make her own choices and
decisions that if she wanted to ride with me that she would have to put her
seat beat on. That it wasn't safe to ride in a car without your seat belt.
In the end it was my son who convinced her to put it on but I don't turn the
car on unless everyone is buckled. The mother was not happy that I "forced"
her daughter to wear a seat belt and I am personally appalled that she
doesn't. I think we both will have to think long and hard about riding
together next time.



Has anyone else had issues with a safety situation? I was not prepared this
time around for the situation. Safety is really my one and only issue. If
there is something I don't want my son to do it is because it isn't safe. As
my son is only five and half and her daughter under eight - I think she is
seven. I think safety should be an issue - if my son gets hurt because I let
him do something that isn't safe (like not wearing a helmet or his seat
beat), doesn't that make me negligent?



Where does unschooling sit on this subject? I am all for kids making their
own mistakes but at the same time children don't always think of
consequences.



Thanks in advance to any perspective you can add.



Shannon



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

"Be safe" was our first basic principle when DS was really little.
That safety extends to other people being safe from being hit or
kicked, too, so it really undergirded a lot of things from the time
he was really little (he's almost 8 now). So, I agree that being
safe is important. However, we don't have a rule that says 'hold
hands crossing the street'. Which street? What circumstances? What
if *I* don't have a hand free (such as in the grocery parking lot
when it's all I can do with two hands to maneuver the overloaded
cart)? And so on - there are so many circumstances possible, not to
mention he's simply growing up and maturing. We just do what it
takes to be safe - a busy street, hold hands. Not so busy, maybe
simply walking close together. Mom's hands occupied? Stay close or
hold a sleeve or pocket or whatever. Sometimes I'll remind DS as we
get out of the car what the environment we're entering looks to be
like "looks like the parking lot is busy today" "wow, there's no one
here today" "gee, the road looks kind of slippery" or whatever.
Sometimes he'll simply put his arm around my waist instead of
holding hands (and I lay my arm across his shoulders and we walk
close together - I love those times!) We've never had a rebellion on
this because there's no rule to rebel against.

Now seatbelts...from the time he could talk, we've given him free
rein to YELL at any grownup that started the car if he was not
buckled in. It was a rare occurrence when we were doing the
buckling, but every once in a while, DH and I would both have our
arms full of stuff, get DS into the car, I thought he buckled, he
though I buckled, we'd not get more than an inch and we'd
hear "BUCKLEBUCKLEBUCKLE!!!" and stop the car as soon as safe
(sometimes you can't just stop midstream) and buckle him in. Now
that he can buckle his own seatbelt, he'll let us know when he's
ready to go.

Part of *my* issue with safety is that sometimes what I think is
hazardous or bound to cause injury, really is not so bad and some
things I know DS can handle safely, he's not so sure of. I think of
all that can go wrong on something but often DS has already worked
that out in his own way and knows exactly what needs doing and how.
For instance, vaulting/rolling over the back of the couch - yikes. I
can see him bouncing and hitting the hardwood floor, I can see him
bumping and bruising on the arms or back if he hits a little off, I
can see a bad landing causing all sorts of damage. But, he knows
what he's doing. I'll suggest safety improvements on occasion or
other ways to reach the same type goal if it is really unsafe but
sometimes it's just MY issue and that's all. So, I make sure we've
got insurance, good first aid kits, first aid and CPR training, gas
in the car at all times that is enough to get to an emergency room,
location of nearest hospital and two routes minimum to get there,
and so on (can you tell this is a 'thing' with me? lol) Then I let
life happen. He's already had two broken arms in the most innocuous
ways I could imagine - in one case, he was about 18 months old and
doing what 18 month olds do - he was running and playing. He was
also on indoor/outdoor carpet over concrete and he tripped somehow
(not sure how, it wasn't over or on anything, just one of those
caught his shoe on the carpet things) and landed oddly and broke
(cleanly) his right radius near the wrist. The flip side is that I
know he can manage a table knife just fine. We have two kinds -
black handled and silver handled. We also have black handled steak
knives. They are kept in separate locations so there's no question
of which is which (and the handles and blades are visibly different
styles, despite the color). Still, DS will not touch ANY black
handled knife just in case - he feels safer that way. So sometimes
what I think is okay is not okay with him. So while I do talk and
discuss and impart information on the situation, we don't do 'safety
rules' - just a basic principle to cover the whole lot.

Yesterday, on a highway right near us, they had a 'seatbelt
checkpoint'. Since wearing them is mandatory and a primary item
(they can pull you over for that on its own, not just in conjunction
with other driving infractions), they would stop and ticket anyone
not wearing a seatbelt. So, your friend would have a problem in
those type circumstances - which might be a point to bring up when
discussing the situation with her (if you do).

--Deb

S Drag-teine

We don't really make it a rule issue either and I am sorry if I gave that
impression. My son was always buckled there was never any question and when
he got old enough to question it or say he didn't want to do it this time -
I never faltered in just explaining that it wasn't safe to do so.

He sometimes buckles himself so I have forgotten a couple times to remember
to ask if he is ready and he will yell before I even leave the drive way,
"Mom, I am not buckled!"

And, yes, it really isn't a rule that he hold my hand. Usually, if I have a
hand free, I just say hand or if it is a busy parking lot or road, I say
"can I hold your hand so I don't get lost." My son was recently asked if he
liked homeschool and he said "yes, of course" and then was asked what he
didn't like about public school, he said, "I don't like rules." So evidently
I don't have any rules.

The only time we talk about rules are the rules of a game and Daddy's work
rules - like having to be to work on time. My issue wasn't so much to do
with my son being safe because he is... he even wears his helmet when riding
his bike and rollerskating without being asked and yes part of that is
modeled behavior because we adults wear our also.

My son was able to use a table knife since he was around three. I used to
tell people who were impressed that they could be appalled that I would give
a three year old a knife or impressed that he knows how to use it. He now
helps cut up veggies with sharp knives (ullu sp?) and kitchen scissors. If
he wanted to jump off the roof, we would work on finding a safe way to do
that...

My problem is that as I am connecting with more and more unschoolers, I am
worried that this is an unschooling thing. I understand raising your kid the
way you want to and totally agree. I didn't tell her she shouldn't let her
kid ride in her vehicle without a seat belt but as I was driving and that is
our - I don't know what you want to call it maybe it is a rule and I need to
find another way to put it - rule in the car - everyone buckles up adults
included.

If we were in an accident or, like you pointed out, pulled over it would be
me who got the ticket for her daughter not being in a seat belt as well as a
booster seat. I guess more my question is that was I wrong to have her
daughter buckle her seat belt and is it normal among unschoolers to not have
your children be safe. I don't think we are as safe as my mother would like
us to be - she is an EMS Training Coordinator. I not only get horror stories
of what happens when kids don't where their helmet, etc I get pictures too.

Shannon

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Deb
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 3:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Safety issues

"Be safe" was our first basic principle when DS was really little.
That safety extends to other people being safe from being hit or
kicked, too, so it really undergirded a lot of things from the time
he was really little (he's almost 8 now). So, I agree that being
safe is important. However, we don't have a rule that says 'hold
hands crossing the street'. Which street? What circumstances? What
if *I* don't have a hand free (such as in the grocery parking lot
when it's all I can do with two hands to maneuver the overloaded
cart)? And so on - there are so many circumstances possible, not to
mention he's simply growing up and maturing. We just do what it
takes to be safe - a busy street, hold hands. Not so busy, maybe
simply walking close together. Mom's hands occupied? Stay close or
hold a sleeve or pocket or whatever. Sometimes I'll remind DS as we
get out of the car what the environment we're entering looks to be
like "looks like the parking lot is busy today" "wow, there's no one
here today" "gee, the road looks kind of slippery" or whatever.
Sometimes he'll simply put his arm around my waist instead of
holding hands (and I lay my arm across his shoulders and we walk
close together - I love those times!) We've never had a rebellion on
this because there's no rule to rebel against.

Now seatbelts...from the time he could talk, we've given him free
rein to YELL at any grownup that started the car if he was not
buckled in. It was a rare occurrence when we were doing the
buckling, but every once in a while, DH and I would both have our
arms full of stuff, get DS into the car, I thought he buckled, he
though I buckled, we'd not get more than an inch and we'd
hear "BUCKLEBUCKLEBUCKLE!!!" and stop the car as soon as safe
(sometimes you can't just stop midstream) and buckle him in. Now
that he can buckle his own seatbelt, he'll let us know when he's
ready to go.

Part of *my* issue with safety is that sometimes what I think is
hazardous or bound to cause injury, really is not so bad and some
things I know DS can handle safely, he's not so sure of. I think of
all that can go wrong on something but often DS has already worked
that out in his own way and knows exactly what needs doing and how.
For instance, vaulting/rolling over the back of the couch - yikes. I
can see him bouncing and hitting the hardwood floor, I can see him
bumping and bruising on the arms or back if he hits a little off, I
can see a bad landing causing all sorts of damage. But, he knows
what he's doing. I'll suggest safety improvements on occasion or
other ways to reach the same type goal if it is really unsafe but
sometimes it's just MY issue and that's all. So, I make sure we've
got insurance, good first aid kits, first aid and CPR training, gas
in the car at all times that is enough to get to an emergency room,
location of nearest hospital and two routes minimum to get there,
and so on (can you tell this is a 'thing' with me? lol) Then I let
life happen. He's already had two broken arms in the most innocuous
ways I could imagine - in one case, he was about 18 months old and
doing what 18 month olds do - he was running and playing. He was
also on indoor/outdoor carpet over concrete and he tripped somehow
(not sure how, it wasn't over or on anything, just one of those
caught his shoe on the carpet things) and landed oddly and broke
(cleanly) his right radius near the wrist. The flip side is that I
know he can manage a table knife just fine. We have two kinds -
black handled and silver handled. We also have black handled steak
knives. They are kept in separate locations so there's no question
of which is which (and the handles and blades are visibly different
styles, despite the color). Still, DS will not touch ANY black
handled knife just in case - he feels safer that way. So sometimes
what I think is okay is not okay with him. So while I do talk and
discuss and impart information on the situation, we don't do 'safety
rules' - just a basic principle to cover the whole lot.

Yesterday, on a highway right near us, they had a 'seatbelt
checkpoint'. Since wearing them is mandatory and a primary item
(they can pull you over for that on its own, not just in conjunction
with other driving infractions), they would stop and ticket anyone
not wearing a seatbelt. So, your friend would have a problem in
those type circumstances - which might be a point to bring up when
discussing the situation with her (if you do).

--Deb






Yahoo! Groups Links

Paige

--- In [email protected], "S Drag-teine"
<dragteine@...> wrote:
So I was with another unschooler. She
> and her child were riding with us and her daughter didn't want to
put on her
> seat belt. Her mother was fine with this but I wasn't

Bottom line is, if you are the driver you are responsible. I have
this same problem with my younger brother, mom doesn't make him buckle
up, but when he is with me, he must buckle or we don't go. I make it
about me instead of him..."If you don't buckle up and I get stopped I
will get an $85 ticket, which I cannot afford. So, please buckle up
and we can leave." I don't know if the laws are the same everywhere,
but in some places you can be charged with neglect for letting
children ride unbuckled.
Paige

Melissa

Jumping in with a funny story. We've never really had buckling be an
issue either. But only because when my oldest was three and really
resisting the issue, I drove about a block down the street and did a
'momentum check'. Yes, momentum still works, and yes, you do fly
forward and hit the seat in front of you. It wasn't hard, it didn't
hurt him, but it did help him understand why buckling in is helpful ;-)

Now whenever one of the younger ones won't buckle in, we have a big
discussion about the laws of physics and momentum. We do the check
for fun sometimes. We also learned about centripetal force at an
autocross one saturday...and on the roller coaster, and the
zipper....lol! Those are great ways to explain to kids why belts are
important.

I think you have the right to have people buckle in your car. As you
mention, it is more than just safety, it's the law as well. I think
you handled it well, staying calm and saying the car doesn't go until
the seats are buckled. If they would have pushed it, I would have
said you are more than welcome to arrange your own transportation,
but our primary principle is safety, and that goes for cars too.

The kids are more than welcome to ride their bikes without helmets,
but I ask that they stay in the grass.

And OT from safety.....I have to laugh about the rules comment, I
asked Emily what she did NOT miss from school. She wrote down a full
page of "all they do is talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk
talk...." I just about died laughing, because she had the best
teacher ever....for first grade, if she would have had Breanna's 1st
grade teacher she would have been NEUROTIC by the winter break.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

S Drag-teine

Well, you all are clearing my prior concern was that this was normal among
unschoolers - it kind of how she made me feel. She also tells me that I am
not an unschooler because of this or because of that and while I don't think
I am a radical one <grin> yet but we as a family are getting there.

My son has stuff I think is kind of schooly but it because he has asked for
it and we play with it how he wants to - I try hard to answer his questions
and do the projects he wants to - we only have so many hours in a day. What
he does, he does because he wants to not because I force him.

Even when he was young I used to tell people I pick my battles for the
important ones (my language for unschooling was nonexistent then) and the
ones that are important are safety.


Shannon

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paige
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 5:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Safety issues

--- In [email protected], "S Drag-teine"
<dragteine@...> wrote:
So I was with another unschooler. She
> and her child were riding with us and her daughter didn't want to
put on her
> seat belt. Her mother was fine with this but I wasn't

Bottom line is, if you are the driver you are responsible. I have
this same problem with my younger brother, mom doesn't make him buckle
up, but when he is with me, he must buckle or we don't go. I make it
about me instead of him..."If you don't buckle up and I get stopped I
will get an $85 ticket, which I cannot afford. So, please buckle up
and we can leave." I don't know if the laws are the same everywhere,
but in some places you can be charged with neglect for letting
children ride unbuckled.
Paige






Yahoo! Groups Links

[email protected]

There are so many things about this seatbelt story that I find disturbing.
Of course, a child should be buckled in for their safety, and that of every one
else. I want to think that this other parent was just having a really bad
day, or perhaps had led such a charmed and sheltered life that they could not
comprehend potential tragedy. How is it possible that someone is willing to
casually risk so much? I wonder if she has really thought out the consequences
beyond the possibility of death, long term health, financial and legal
problems. What about the kid who begins to notice that other parents require their
kids to do what it takes to be safe while his parent does not? What about the
kid who sees that his parent is willing to break the law to accommodate him?
The brazen process of letting small children make uninformed choices about
health and safety is the main issue that I really question in the UNschooling
world. It carries a good concept to extremes that can be very harmful. How can
a child predict how they would feel about a life of surgeries and
painkillers, with one parent probably in jail, and the other financially strapped? Over
my 15 year journey through homeschooling/eclectic learning/child led
unschooling, it has been confusing to me to hear parents equate their understandable
disagreements about government schooling with letting their five year old eat
all the sugar he wants, watch all the cable TV he wants, or dispute wearing a
seatbelt. This covers issues big and small that have more to do with the
parents own self esteem and personal boundaries, than with any educational theory or
life style choice. If a parent feels bad about making a screaming child
brush their teeth, how will that parent feel trying to comfort a screaming child
with an abscessed tooth, or getting a screaming child to the dentist to have a
root canal? Some things are just hard.
Wishful thinking doesn't always make it better.
I'm late for work.
Robin

[email protected]

>>The brazen process of letting small children make uninformed choices about
health and safety is the main issue that I really question in the UNschooling
world. It carries a good concept to extremes that can be very harmful.>>

I don't think anyone here is recommending that children should be left to their own devices to make uninformed choices. I think the parent that said "you're not really unschooling if you insist on a seatbelt" is not understanding what unschoolers are saying about working with children to give them real choices.

I talk with my children all the time about what concerns me, the consequences of certain behaviors, etc. We work together to come up with solutions. We have always worn seatbelts, kept reasonably clean, and eaten reasonably healthy. I also try to give them as much control and choice over their own lives as possible. They make pretty good choices. I haven't had to play the "mom card" all that often and insist on something against their will for safety's sake. When I do, they listen because they know if I'm stepping in it must be something I'm really concerned about.

>>If a parent feels bad about making a screaming child
brush their teeth, how will that parent feel trying to comfort a screaming child
with an abscessed tooth, or getting a screaming child to the dentist to have a
root canal?>>

Not brushing for awhile doesn't automatically guarantee these things will happen. Brushing twice a day doesn't guarantee no cavities. My kids have gone through no brushing times. They didn't last long and I tried not to make such a big deal out of it. For me it's about not creating power struggles over everyday things.

--
~Mary

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: robinstempo@...

[email protected]

Good question!
A couple examples come to mind of recent..

Yesterday at the gas pump a woman peered over and said "do you know your
children are rolling your windows up and down?" (I had 3 of my 4 children and
they were all seat belted in)You have got to be kidding me, I thought! I had
visions of the punishment/discussion or fear she would consider instilling in
her child (said she had one 18 months old) bc of the DANGEROUS windows.
I looked at her and said "Oh yes! Thank you but it's ok my husband can fix
anything." She said "Oh, no.. I meant that they may get their heads stuck or
worse." Worse???
LOL yeah my kids roll their heads up in windows.. To which I said "If their
happy im happy and they look to be having fun." I was thinking that it was
far better than the tears my son shed in BJ's bc some man touched him to
redirect him to me calling his name.
**
My MIL gave me flack for not forcing my son to sit in the back seat. I told
her she was in far worse danger sitting so close to the steering wheel than my
son (who was 10 at the time).

Lots of people have fears of the unknown. Many I have relaxed after having
four and seeing what didn't happen.
I do see some (many) rules that can conflict with unschooling(radical).

As a parent you have a choice on how you parent and how far you go into
unschooling no one can make those choices for you. Rules do conflict with
unschooling but not the same as safety. I don't force my children to hold my hand in
a parking lot if they don't want to. I often have my hand on a sleeve or
anything that would save them from an accident and I will get them out of harms
way (which means move them but not to include hit or scold them).
I think to break it down, more thought goes into how they feel vs my need to
control them.
Some days they want to hold hands and others not. What's ok for one child is
not the same for all.
As for seatbelts..Yes they are a safety issue but with independent children
who buckle themselves there have been a couple times i looked back to see one
not buckled. He's still alive but I look more now.. As an
unschooler/peaceful parent I would not force another persons child to buckle up. I may not
drive until they are buckled but I have yet to see a situation that cannot be
discussed and worked through.. I think my kids as free thinking beings may
challenge a rule but they would not go against another family's "rules". I can't
know what the mothers position was but respecting children doesn't mean on
whoever's terms. I wouldn't say no more rides unless the friendship wasn't
working but I would discuss it before a trip.

The problem is everyone has their own set of triggers. People with lots of
triggers/rules will never be ok with unschooling , unschoolers or anyone that
doesn't follow mainstream.
Some unschoolers don't allow their children to go to bed when they want bc
of their "trigger" or rule that it can cause illness,low growth or..or..
I've even heard a mom say, as a radical unschooler, that a fruit snack was
poison and run across a room to save their child from it.
Sooo... They are your children and no matter how good a parent you feel you
are inside you wont please everyone. It's all in the company you plan to keep.

Negligent for not wearing a helmet? I guess it depends where?
Comfort levels change/relax as we get older and or have more children.

Laura


<<Safety issues are non-negotiable for me... like holding hands when you
cross
the street and bucking up in the car. So I was with another unschooler. She
and her child were riding with us and her daughter didn't want to put on her
seat belt. Her mother was fine with this but I wasn't and I told her
daughter that I while I respect her right to make her own choices and
decisions that if she wanted to ride with me that she would have to put her
seat beat on. That it wasn't safe to ride in a car without your seat belt.
In the end it was my son who convinced her to put it on but I don't turn the
car on unless everyone is buckled. The mother was not happy that I "forced"
her daughter to wear a seat belt and I am personally appalled that she
doesn't. I think we both will have to think long and hard about riding
together next time.
Has anyone else had issues with a safety situation? I was not prepared this
time around for the situation. Safety is really my one and only issue. If
there is something I don't want my son to do it is because it isn't safe. As
my son is only five and half and her daughter under eight - I think she is
seven. I think safety should be an issue - if my son gets hurt because I let
him do something that isn't safe (like not wearing a helmet or his seat
beat), doesn't that make me negligent?

Where does unschooling sit on this subject? I am all for kids making their
own mistakes but at the same time children don't always think of
consequences.

Thanks in advance to any perspective you can add.

Shannon





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I think the problem with safety issues is that the "line" between exciting and dangerous is different for everyone. For the most part, my kids decide for themselves what they are comfortable with....to the point that we gets adults interfering alot...like when Danny climbs the baseball backstop at the park and sits on top. He has been doing it since he was a tyke and now he is 7.

However, the driver of a car is responsible for the safety of the passengers. I think it is the driver's call as to how things go in their car. If it was that big of deal for the mom, they could have chosen not to ride with Shannon.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Deb <soggyboysmom@...>
Date: Thursday, March 9, 2006 2:28 pm
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Safety issues

> "Be safe" was our first basic principle when DS was really little.
> That safety extends to other people being safe from being hit or
> kicked, too, so it really undergirded a lot of things from the
> time
> he was really little (he's almost 8 now). So, I agree that being
> safe is important. However, we don't have a rule that says 'hold
> hands crossing the street'. Which street? What circumstances? What
> if *I* don't have a hand free (such as in the grocery parking lot
> when it's all I can do with two hands to maneuver the overloaded
> cart)? And so on - there are so many circumstances possible, not
> to
> mention he's simply growing up and maturing. We just do what it
> takes to be safe - a busy street, hold hands. Not so busy, maybe
> simply walking close together. Mom's hands occupied? Stay close or
> hold a sleeve or pocket or whatever. Sometimes I'll remind DS as
> we
> get out of the car what the environment we're entering looks to be
> like "looks like the parking lot is busy today" "wow, there's no
> one
> here today" "gee, the road looks kind of slippery" or whatever.
> Sometimes he'll simply put his arm around my waist instead of
> holding hands (and I lay my arm across his shoulders and we walk
> close together - I love those times!) We've never had a rebellion
> on
> this because there's no rule to rebel against.
>
> Now seatbelts...from the time he could talk, we've given him free
> rein to YELL at any grownup that started the car if he was not
> buckled in. It was a rare occurrence when we were doing the
> buckling, but every once in a while, DH and I would both have our
> arms full of stuff, get DS into the car, I thought he buckled, he
> though I buckled, we'd not get more than an inch and we'd
> hear "BUCKLEBUCKLEBUCKLE!!!" and stop the car as soon as safe
> (sometimes you can't just stop midstream) and buckle him in. Now
> that he can buckle his own seatbelt, he'll let us know when he's
> ready to go.
>
> Part of *my* issue with safety is that sometimes what I think is
> hazardous or bound to cause injury, really is not so bad and some
> things I know DS can handle safely, he's not so sure of. I think
> of
> all that can go wrong on something but often DS has already worked
> that out in his own way and knows exactly what needs doing and
> how.
> For instance, vaulting/rolling over the back of the couch - yikes.
> I
> can see him bouncing and hitting the hardwood floor, I can see him
> bumping and bruising on the arms or back if he hits a little off,
> I
> can see a bad landing causing all sorts of damage. But, he knows
> what he's doing. I'll suggest safety improvements on occasion or
> other ways to reach the same type goal if it is really unsafe but
> sometimes it's just MY issue and that's all. So, I make sure we've
> got insurance, good first aid kits, first aid and CPR training,
> gas
> in the car at all times that is enough to get to an emergency
> room,
> location of nearest hospital and two routes minimum to get there,
> and so on (can you tell this is a 'thing' with me? lol) Then I let
> life happen. He's already had two broken arms in the most
> innocuous
> ways I could imagine - in one case, he was about 18 months old and
> doing what 18 month olds do - he was running and playing. He was
> also on indoor/outdoor carpet over concrete and he tripped somehow
> (not sure how, it wasn't over or on anything, just one of those
> caught his shoe on the carpet things) and landed oddly and broke
> (cleanly) his right radius near the wrist. The flip side is that I
> know he can manage a table knife just fine. We have two kinds -
> black handled and silver handled. We also have black handled steak
> knives. They are kept in separate locations so there's no question
> of which is which (and the handles and blades are visibly
> different
> styles, despite the color). Still, DS will not touch ANY black
> handled knife just in case - he feels safer that way. So sometimes
> what I think is okay is not okay with him. So while I do talk and
> discuss and impart information on the situation, we don't do
> 'safety
> rules' - just a basic principle to cover the whole lot.
>
> Yesterday, on a highway right near us, they had a 'seatbelt
> checkpoint'. Since wearing them is mandatory and a primary item
> (they can pull you over for that on its own, not just in
> conjunction
> with other driving infractions), they would stop and ticket anyone
> not wearing a seatbelt. So, your friend would have a problem in
> those type circumstances - which might be a point to bring up when
> discussing the situation with her (if you do).
>
> --Deb
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

<<Or getting a screaming child to the dentist for a root canal?>>

Whoa, nelly!!

Not brushing one's teeth doesn't necessarily doom one to a root canal, not wearing a seatbelt doesn't necessarily doom one to a life of surgeries.

By the same token, brushing one's teeth isn't the magic bullet that protects one from painful dental work and wearing a seatbelt isn't 100% protection from serious injury during an accident.

I don't wear a seatbelt. I have been known to put it on in certain situations but most of the time, I don't feel sufficiently threatened to wear it. My dad is a Highway Patrolman. Protection by safety belts depends primarily on the type of accident. Some people find themselves in loads of accidents, some people are never in an accident in their lives. You have to weigh the risks as you perceive them.

My kids wear safety belts due to it being the law. We do enough "wierd" stuff that I don't think we need to draw unnecessary attention to ourselves and risk a negligence complaint. That being said, to a lot of people, unschooling is considered negligence...

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: robinstempo@...
Date: Thursday, March 9, 2006 5:20 pm
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Safety issues

> There are so many things about this seatbelt story that I find
> disturbing.
> Of course, a child should be buckled in for their safety, and that
> of every one
> else. I want to think that this other parent was just having a
> really bad
> day, or perhaps had led such a charmed and sheltered life that
> they could not
> comprehend potential tragedy. How is it possible that someone is
> willing to
> casually risk so much? I wonder if she has really thought out the
> consequences
> beyond the possibility of death, long term health, financial and
> legal
> problems. What about the kid who begins to notice that other
> parents require their
> kids to do what it takes to be safe while his parent does not?
> What about the
> kid who sees that his parent is willing to break the law to
> accommodate him?
> The brazen process of letting small children make uninformed
> choices about
> health and safety is the main issue that I really question in the
> UNschooling
> world. It carries a good concept to extremes that can be very
> harmful. How can
> a child predict how they would feel about a life of surgeries and
> painkillers, with one parent probably in jail, and the other
> financially strapped? Over
> my 15 year journey through homeschooling/eclectic learning/child
> led
> unschooling, it has been confusing to me to hear parents equate
> their understandable
> disagreements about government schooling with letting their five
> year old eat
> all the sugar he wants, watch all the cable TV he wants, or
> dispute wearing a
> seatbelt. This covers issues big and small that have more to do
> with the
> parents own self esteem and personal boundaries, than with any
> educational theory or
> life style choice. If a parent feels bad about making a screaming
> child
> brush their teeth, how will that parent feel trying to comfort a
> screaming child
> with an abscessed tooth, or getting a screaming child to the
> dentist to have a
> root canal? Some things are just hard.
> Wishful thinking doesn't always make it better.
> I'm late for work.
> Robin
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Su Penn

On Mar 9, 2006, at 6:20 PM, robinstempo@... wrote:


> Over
> my 15 year journey through homeschooling/eclectic learning/child led
> unschooling, it has been confusing to me to hear parents equate
> their understandable
> disagreements about government schooling with letting their five
> year old eat
> all the sugar he wants, watch all the cable TV he wants, or dispute
> wearing a
> seatbelt.

These are three really different things. About the first two, it
seems to me that you have an assumption that "as much as they want"
automatically equals "too much" or "more than is good for them,"
which is not necessarily true.

> This covers issues big and small that have more to do with the
> parents own self esteem and personal boundaries, than with any
> educational theory or
> life style choice. If a parent feels bad about making a screaming
> child
> brush their teeth,

Is this the only way kids will brush their teeth? If they're forced
to do it, fighting and screaming? Nobody in my house has ever
screamed about brushing teeth--and I don't have especially compliant
kids. Again, I'm seeing an underlying assumption here that kids will
not choose to brush their teeth but will have to be forced.

The original poster asked about a situation in which she asked
another mother's child to wear a seat belt in her car. I think a
driver is allowed to have that rule--I'm another mom who does. I
haven't yet had to force my kids to wear seatbelts; it's a lifelong
habit for them (well, OK, the little one is still in a car seat, so I
guess I'm talking about my older one here). We've never had a moment
of conflict about it, and it didn't sound like Shannon had a conflict
with her own kid--but rather with the mother of another kid. I think
one can be an unschooler and still have some non-negotiable safety
rules--but if I had a kid who didn't want to wear a seatbelt, I would
talk to him about why he didn't want to wear it and try to find out
if there was a problem that could be fixed, or a solution that would
meet my need to feel he was safe and his need to --what? be
comfortable? not be strangled by the shoulder belt? be able to see
out the front window? feel autonomous? The answer wouldn't be, "well,
buster, you better buy a bus pas then because you're not getting in
my car!" Nor would it be, "Oh, OK, then, just unbuckle yourself and
sit there, no problem."

Su

Paige

>>>like when Danny climbs the baseball backstop at the park and sits
>on top. He has been doing it since he was a tyke and now he is 7.
>Julie S.

LOL!! I have a picture of my younger dd sitting on top of a baseball
backstop when she was 3 or 4. I also have pics of her in every kind
of tree imaginable, some 20 or so feet off the ground. She is a born
climber. The only thing I tell her is if she goes up she has to be
able to get herself down, because I can't climb trees. lol
Paige

[email protected]

I couldn't disagree more with the "fear"factor and what if's.
Too close to the schools push of good grades or you will be a poor jobless
stay at home parent with loads of children and a looser husband. (actually
pushed in a UT school)

The"what if" is why many do not homeschool.
This is a large list. I would guess that as an unschooling list many do what
you just called neglect. I for one have some freedoms you called neglect..

I have been parenting for 14.5 years and prior to that I helped raise my
little sister. I've seen two sides to parenting. We have been unschooling for 6
years now and yet have I seen a neglect situation from an unschooling family.

It's not a situation of hey lets have a free for all. It comes down to what
matters. For many the child's heart is more important then the need to control
or puppet a child. There are many ways to get to a solution that's what's
great about unschooling.

> There are so many things about this seatbelt story that I find
> disturbing.
> Of course, a child should be buckled in for their safety, and that
> of every one
> else. I want to think that this other parent was just having a
> really bad
> day, or perhaps had led such a charmed and sheltered life that
> they could not
> comprehend potential tragedy.>>
Maybe the mother reacted to the lack of time she had. Maybe the situation
isn't as simple as it looks. Maybe the two families had realized how totally
different they were and just wanted to get home. Seems to me both mothers
possibly reacted and right now we only have one side of the story..

<<< How is it possible that someone is
> willing to
> casually risk so much? I wonder if she has really thought out the
> consequences
> beyond the possibility of death, long term health, financial and
> legal
> problems. What about the kid who begins to notice that other
> parents require their
> kids to do what it takes to be safe while his parent does not?
> What about the
> kid who sees that his parent is willing to break the law to
> accommodate him?
> The brazen process of letting small children make uninformed
> choices about
> health and safety is the main issue that I really question in the
> UNschooling
> world. It carries a good concept to extremes that can be very
> harmful. How can
> a child predict how they would feel about a life of surgeries and
> painkillers, with one parent probably in jail, and the other
> financially strapped? Over
> my 15 year journey through homeschooling/eclectic learning/child
> led
> unschooling, it has been confusing to me to hear parents equate
> their understandable
> disagreements about government schooling with letting their five
> year old eat
> all the sugar he wants, watch all the cable TV he wants, or
> dispute wearing a
> seatbelt. This covers issues big and small that have more to do
> with the
> parents own self esteem and personal boundaries, than with any
> educational theory or
> life style choice. If a parent feels bad about making a screaming
> child
> brush their teeth, how will that parent feel trying to comfort a
> screaming child
> with an abscessed tooth, or getting a screaming child to the
> dentist to have a
> root canal? Some things are just hard.
> Wishful thinking doesn't always make it better.
> I'm late for work.
> Robin >>
I think the child was 7.......... not 5.
How old are your children? How long have they been out of school? Are you
new to unschooling?

This list is to assist families get to unschooling if it's thought as
neglect I don't see an interest to learn at all..

My kids do eat all they want, it's not over the top at all and I find it
totally natural extension to adulthood. None of my kids are over weight, they
very rarely get sick and we don't have issues with dental caries caused from
food choices.

A screaming child in pain is different. The thought of making a child cry to
be in control is abusive. There is two sides to that coin to include self
esteem. Controlling parents are far more at risk for loosing control..

Lastly TV. Do you feel TV is bad? Do you have a personal experience?
Lets discuss this deeper.
If you are truly interested in unschooling I'm sorry but for most its not we
unschool except.....FORCE.... There is unschooling and radical unschooling
but there is a thin line and it doesn't include just 9-3 and no curriculum to
include force where ever. Why unschool then?

I'm not looking to cause a debate and do agree with safety and seatbelts as
they are a law in our state also. I just do not feel it needs to be forced
because of someone else's hurry or lack of patience or need for control. I'm not
suggesting no seatbelts just more time. In this case it wasn't her child soo
I agree with the need to buckle up but not how it was explained. This was
another persons child after all.

Laura





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

S Drag-teine

This one is a little confusing and I am afraid if I have read it right, the
thread has offended you and I am sorry.

While I didn't know the words for it I have been unschooling my son since he
was born. Finding things that further what I see he is interested in,
playing and being available and not keeping him from doing things that most
first parents would have freaked out about.

When we put toys away, WE put toys away. It has always been a team or group
effort in everything we do. He learned the colors fro us putting his bath
toys away. He started it one day and handed me a toy to put in the bucket
and said, "what color?" I told him and he handed me another asking - it
became a routine.

My issue was not about neglect for unschooling to me it is about treating
children as people who have their own thoughts, opinions, feelings, tastes
and agendas. He is very intelligent but no more so that an average five and
half year old. He understand concepts that might be scary sometimes. He
understands that safety is how we avoid getting hurt. He doesn't like to get
hurt.

Yes, some people might think that giving your child the freedom to discover
the world on his own, make his own mistakes, choose what he wants to eat,
when he wants to eat, when he wants to sleep, etc I guess could be construed
as neglect. I don't and it wasn't what I was even talking about. The only
thing I originally posted was to ask couldn't I be held negligent?

I will tell you DS has been a chunky boy from birth. He was 35 lbs before he
was a year. I called him my little mutant and my butterball turkey when he
was an infant. We controlled things very much - only allowed two cookies or
eat more meat before you can have more veggies. We stopped that and he has
lost weight. I can't tell you how much lbs wise but to the point that we had
to by smaller pants and a belt because even the pants that fit him are like
an inch too big. It has been gradual, just like the letting go of control
but it has happened. I look forward to letting more go as he gets older and
becomes more capable and self reliant - of course I will always be here to
help.


Shannon


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of HMSL2@...
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 8:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Safety issues

I couldn't disagree more with the "fear"factor and what if's.
Too close to the schools push of good grades or you will be a poor jobless
stay at home parent with loads of children and a looser husband. (actually
pushed in a UT school)

The"what if" is why many do not homeschool.
This is a large list. I would guess that as an unschooling list many do
what
you just called neglect. I for one have some freedoms you called neglect..

I have been parenting for 14.5 years and prior to that I helped raise my
little sister. I've seen two sides to parenting. We have been unschooling
for 6
years now and yet have I seen a neglect situation from an unschooling
family.

It's not a situation of hey lets have a free for all. It comes down to what

matters. For many the child's heart is more important then the need to
control
or puppet a child. There are many ways to get to a solution that's
what's
great about unschooling.

> There are so many things about this seatbelt story that I find
> disturbing.
> Of course, a child should be buckled in for their safety, and that
> of every one
> else. I want to think that this other parent was just having a
> really bad
> day, or perhaps had led such a charmed and sheltered life that
> they could not
> comprehend potential tragedy.>>
Maybe the mother reacted to the lack of time she had. Maybe the situation
isn't as simple as it looks. Maybe the two families had realized how totally

different they were and just wanted to get home. Seems to me both mothers
possibly reacted and right now we only have one side of the story..

<<< How is it possible that someone is
> willing to
> casually risk so much? I wonder if she has really thought out the
> consequences
> beyond the possibility of death, long term health, financial and
> legal
> problems. What about the kid who begins to notice that other
> parents require their
> kids to do what it takes to be safe while his parent does not?
> What about the
> kid who sees that his parent is willing to break the law to
> accommodate him?
> The brazen process of letting small children make uninformed
> choices about
> health and safety is the main issue that I really question in the
> UNschooling
> world. It carries a good concept to extremes that can be very
> harmful. How can
> a child predict how they would feel about a life of surgeries and
> painkillers, with one parent probably in jail, and the other
> financially strapped? Over
> my 15 year journey through homeschooling/eclectic learning/child
> led
> unschooling, it has been confusing to me to hear parents equate
> their understandable
> disagreements about government schooling with letting their five
> year old eat
> all the sugar he wants, watch all the cable TV he wants, or
> dispute wearing a
> seatbelt. This covers issues big and small that have more to do
> with the
> parents own self esteem and personal boundaries, than with any
> educational theory or
> life style choice. If a parent feels bad about making a screaming
> child
> brush their teeth, how will that parent feel trying to comfort a
> screaming child
> with an abscessed tooth, or getting a screaming child to the
> dentist to have a
> root canal? Some things are just hard.
> Wishful thinking doesn't always make it better.
> I'm late for work.
> Robin >>
I think the child was 7.......... not 5.
How old are your children? How long have they been out of school? Are you
new to unschooling?

This list is to assist families get to unschooling if it's thought as
neglect I don't see an interest to learn at all..

My kids do eat all they want, it's not over the top at all and I find it
totally natural extension to adulthood. None of my kids are over weight,
they
very rarely get sick and we don't have issues with dental caries caused
from
food choices.

A screaming child in pain is different. The thought of making a child cry
to
be in control is abusive. There is two sides to that coin to include self
esteem. Controlling parents are far more at risk for loosing control..

Lastly TV. Do you feel TV is bad? Do you have a personal experience?
Lets discuss this deeper.
If you are truly interested in unschooling I'm sorry but for most its not
we
unschool except.....FORCE.... There is unschooling and radical unschooling
but there is a thin line and it doesn't include just 9-3 and no curriculum
to
include force where ever. Why unschool then?

I'm not looking to cause a debate and do agree with safety and seatbelts as

they are a law in our state also. I just do not feel it needs to be forced
because of someone else's hurry or lack of patience or need for control. I'm
not
suggesting no seatbelts just more time. In this case it wasn't her child
soo
I agree with the need to buckle up but not how it was explained. This was
another persons child after all.

Laura





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

randomfreespeech

I think that unschooling can really be taken to extremes and
misunderstood. The safety and health of our children come before their
choice. They are not born knowing that they need to wear a seatbelt,
need to wipe their butts, need to brush their teeth, need to clean
their bodies... They need GENTLE GUIDANCE in these things. Explaining
why these things are important, being shown by example. Not wearing a
seatbelt is ILLEGAL. In our family the car doesn't go anywhere if we
don't hear 'Mr. Click' first. The kids know that "a seatbelt is worn
to protect your body from flying around the car in case we were to get
into a car accident".

--- In [email protected], "S Drag-teine"
<dragteine@...> wrote:
>
> Safety issues are non-negotiable for me... like holding hands when
you cross
> the street and bucking up in the car. So I was with another
unschooler. She
> and her child were riding with us and her daughter didn't want to
put on her
> seat belt. Her mother was fine with this but I wasn't and I told her
> daughter that I while I respect her right to make her own choices and
> decisions that if she wanted to ride with me that she would have to
put her
> seat beat on. That it wasn't safe to ride in a car without your seat
belt.
> In the end it was my son who convinced her to put it on but I don't
turn the
> car on unless everyone is buckled. The mother was not happy that I
"forced"
> her daughter to wear a seat belt and I am personally appalled that she
> doesn't. I think we both will have to think long and hard about riding
> together next time.
>
>
>
> Has anyone else had issues with a safety situation? I was not
prepared this
> time around for the situation. Safety is really my one and only
issue. If
> there is something I don't want my son to do it is because it isn't
safe. As
> my son is only five and half and her daughter under eight - I think
she is
> seven. I think safety should be an issue - if my son gets hurt
because I let
> him do something that isn't safe (like not wearing a helmet or his seat
> beat), doesn't that make me negligent?
>
>
>
> Where does unschooling sit on this subject? I am all for kids making
their
> own mistakes but at the same time children don't always think of
> consequences.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance to any perspective you can add.
>
>
>
> Shannon
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

randomfreespeech

It's refreshing to hear that there's someone else out there that
understands that unschooling doesn't mean your kid is a 'little adult'
with all the knowledge and abilities an adult has to be able to find
the information they need to make informed decisions.

--- In [email protected], robinstempo@... wrote:
>
> There are so many things about this seatbelt story that I find
disturbing.
> Of course, a child should be buckled in for their safety, and that
of every one
> else. I want to think that this other parent was just having a
really bad
> day, or perhaps had led such a charmed and sheltered life that they
could not
> comprehend potential tragedy. How is it possible that someone is
willing to
> casually risk so much? I wonder if she has really thought out the
consequences
> beyond the possibility of death, long term health, financial and legal
> problems. What about the kid who begins to notice that other parents
require their
> kids to do what it takes to be safe while his parent does not? What
about the
> kid who sees that his parent is willing to break the law to
accommodate him?
> The brazen process of letting small children make uninformed choices
about
> health and safety is the main issue that I really question in the
UNschooling
> world. It carries a good concept to extremes that can be very
harmful. How can
> a child predict how they would feel about a life of surgeries and
> painkillers, with one parent probably in jail, and the other
financially strapped? Over
> my 15 year journey through homeschooling/eclectic learning/child led
> unschooling, it has been confusing to me to hear parents equate
their understandable
> disagreements about government schooling with letting their five
year old eat
> all the sugar he wants, watch all the cable TV he wants, or dispute
wearing a
> seatbelt. This covers issues big and small that have more to do
with the
> parents own self esteem and personal boundaries, than with any
educational theory or
> life style choice. If a parent feels bad about making a screaming
child
> brush their teeth, how will that parent feel trying to comfort a
screaming child
> with an abscessed tooth, or getting a screaming child to the dentist
to have a
> root canal? Some things are just hard.
> Wishful thinking doesn't always make it better.
> I'm late for work.
> Robin
>

[email protected]

>>It's refreshing to hear that there's someone else out there that
understands that unschooling doesn't mean your kid is a 'little adult'
with all the knowledge and abilities an adult has to be able to find
the information they need to make informed decisions.>>

Who here has said that? I must have missed that one too.

--
~Mary

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "randomfreespeech" <randomfreespeech@...>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<not wearing a seatbelt is ILLEGAL...>>

Being illegal isn't a big thing to me. *I* decide what is right and wrong, being aware that there may be societal repurcussions for my actions. That is the example that I give my children. I hope they will weigh risks, evaluate alternatives, be aware of possible consequences and make a choice. I would not want my kids to blindly follow any law. Not all laws are for the good of the people.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: randomfreespeech <randomfreespeech@...>
Date: Friday, March 10, 2006 11:47 am
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Safety issues

> I think that unschooling can really be taken to extremes and
> misunderstood. The safety and health of our children come before their
> choice. They are not born knowing that they need to wear a seatbelt,
> need to wipe their butts, need to brush their teeth, need to clean
> their bodies... They need GENTLE GUIDANCE in these things. Explaining
> why these things are important, being shown by example. Not
> wearing a
> seatbelt is ILLEGAL. In our family the car doesn't go anywhere if we
> don't hear 'Mr. Click' first. The kids know that "a seatbelt is worn
> to protect your body from flying around the car in case we were to get
> into a car accident".
>
> --- In [email protected], "S Drag-teine"
> <dragteine@...> wrote:
> >
> > Safety issues are non-negotiable for me... like holding hands when
> you cross
> > the street and bucking up in the car. So I was with another
> unschooler. She
> > and her child were riding with us and her daughter didn't want to
> put on her
> > seat belt. Her mother was fine with this but I wasn't and I told her
> > daughter that I while I respect her right to make her own
> choices and
> > decisions that if she wanted to ride with me that she would have to
> put her
> > seat beat on. That it wasn't safe to ride in a car without your seat
> belt.
> > In the end it was my son who convinced her to put it on but I don't
> turn the
> > car on unless everyone is buckled. The mother was not happy that I
> "forced"
> > her daughter to wear a seat belt and I am personally appalled
> that she
> > doesn't. I think we both will have to think long and hard about
> riding> together next time.
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone else had issues with a safety situation? I was not
> prepared this
> > time around for the situation. Safety is really my one and only
> issue. If
> > there is something I don't want my son to do it is because it isn't
> safe. As
> > my son is only five and half and her daughter under eight - I think
> she is
> > seven. I think safety should be an issue - if my son gets hurt
> because I let
> > him do something that isn't safe (like not wearing a helmet or
> his seat
> > beat), doesn't that make me negligent?
> >
> >
> >
> > Where does unschooling sit on this subject? I am all for kids making
> their
> > own mistakes but at the same time children don't always think of
> > consequences.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance to any perspective you can add.
> >
> >
> >
> > Shannon
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/10/2006 7:16:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I think that unschooling can really be taken to extremes and
misunderstood. The safety and health of our children come before their
choice.


*****************************
Please keep in mind that these issues are NOT about the unschooling. The
woman and situation that Shannon described may or may not have control issues
with her daughter (I suspect the former, given her problems with anything she
perceives as "schooly"), but she certainly does with Shannon.

Unschooling does NOT mean refraining from parenting or keeping children safe
and healthy. Many parents here have shared compromises they have made so
their children could have the experiences they wanted and still remain safe.
("You need to wear your seatbelt when we're driving, but I will drive in this
parking lot slowly so you can ride without a seatbelt for a few minutes." )

Just because someone calls their behavior "unschooling" doesn't mean it is.
Kathryn

P.S. I find it interesting that very few of us have had problems with
regular use of seatbelts with our kids, other than very little ones who didn't like
car seats or booster seats and were too young to really "get it." Kids
aren't stupid, and usually if we let them know WHY we seem to be obsessed with
things, they trust us enough to go along.

Come to the Northeast Unschooling Conference, Memorial Day Weekend, May
26-28, 2006 in Peabody, Massachusetts! www.NortheastUnschoolingConference.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa McMahon-Lowe

>>It's refreshing to hear that there's someone else out there that
understands that unschooling doesn't mean your kid is a 'little adult'
with all the knowledge and abilities an adult has to be able to find
the information they need to make informed decisions.>>


Yeah, here again is the misunderstanding of what unschooling is. It's not
letting your kids "do whatever they want... without concern for themselves
and others" it's giving them freedom while facilitating responsibility and
boundaries. It's talking and helping your kids understand what they need to
know to make informed decisions.

> The brazen process of letting small children make uninformed choices
about
> health and safety is the main issue that I really question in the
UNschooling
> world. It carries a good concept to extremes that can be very
harmful.

Here again... if unschooling isn't understood, it could be abused to a
harmful extreme. It may sound sometimes <on this list and others> that we
all let our kids go wild and crazy and live in chaos and anarchy... but it's
not the case. Open minds, discussion, facilitation, and seeking knowledge
is key to unschooling and is talked about on here a lot... sorry, if it's
not in every discussion. But it is here.

Lesa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]