Re: [unschoolingbasics] Digest Number 50
Ren
"What can I say. My daughter has "ADHD" and "ODD" and
"Mood Disorder"
according to
the medical labels, and her needs are different. We're arguing about a
kid that nobody has
even met and knows nothing about. "
I think another great unschooling discussion, is how we can support unique challenges without the above damaging labels.
No, we don't know your dd personally. But when a parent says a child is "balking", that's a red flag and usually that gets questioned.
Are you assuming that because we don't know your particular child, we don't understand the challenges you just listed?
I could tell you a little bit about ADD, having lived with the characteristics my brother possessed for many, many years. I myself, would probably be labeled ADD in school these days.
Many parents here are facing those challenges and unschooling without coercion. So I think it's a great thing to discuss...if people can stick to the ideas, not feel bent out of shape over being questioned.
Maybe asking for ideas on how to help her cue in to her own body, while dealing with her unique character traits would be more useful than getting mad at people for asking why she needs to be forced to bed at 10pm. Just an idea.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
"Mood Disorder"
according to
the medical labels, and her needs are different. We're arguing about a
kid that nobody has
even met and knows nothing about. "
I think another great unschooling discussion, is how we can support unique challenges without the above damaging labels.
No, we don't know your dd personally. But when a parent says a child is "balking", that's a red flag and usually that gets questioned.
Are you assuming that because we don't know your particular child, we don't understand the challenges you just listed?
I could tell you a little bit about ADD, having lived with the characteristics my brother possessed for many, many years. I myself, would probably be labeled ADD in school these days.
Many parents here are facing those challenges and unschooling without coercion. So I think it's a great thing to discuss...if people can stick to the ideas, not feel bent out of shape over being questioned.
Maybe asking for ideas on how to help her cue in to her own body, while dealing with her unique character traits would be more useful than getting mad at people for asking why she needs to be forced to bed at 10pm. Just an idea.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
sandrewmama
on 6/24/04 8:00 PM, Ren at starsuncloud@... wrote:
Many parents here are facing those challenges and unschooling without
coercion.
I'm relatively new to this list but Ren's statement above, admittedly taken
out of context, pinpointed a nagging question I've been thinking about since
I joined. Is this list primarily a discussion list for *unschooling without
coercion*? Are there people on this list who believe that the two are
inseparable? I mean, I've gotten the feeling that there are at least a few
vocal posters who might believe that it isn't unschooling unless there is no
coercion whatsoever. Is this the focus of this particular list? I'm not
asking to trigger a debate, I just need to understand the premise of this
list. Maybe I'll go back and re-read the description on the website.
Thanks, Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Many parents here are facing those challenges and unschooling without
coercion.
I'm relatively new to this list but Ren's statement above, admittedly taken
out of context, pinpointed a nagging question I've been thinking about since
I joined. Is this list primarily a discussion list for *unschooling without
coercion*? Are there people on this list who believe that the two are
inseparable? I mean, I've gotten the feeling that there are at least a few
vocal posters who might believe that it isn't unschooling unless there is no
coercion whatsoever. Is this the focus of this particular list? I'm not
asking to trigger a debate, I just need to understand the premise of this
list. Maybe I'll go back and re-read the description on the website.
Thanks, Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<I'm relatively new to this list but Ren's statement above, admittedly
taken out of context, pinpointed a nagging question I've been thinking about
since I joined. Is this list primarily a discussion list for *unschooling
without coercion*? Are there people on this list who believe that the two
are inseparable? I mean, I've gotten the feeling that there are at least a
few vocal posters who might believe that it isn't unschooling unless there
is no coercion whatsoever. Is this the focus of this particular list? I'm
not asking to trigger a debate, I just need to understand the premise of
this list. Maybe I'll go back and re-read the description on the
website.>>>
I love nagging questions - for me they are always an area of personal growth
waiting to happen.
It is astonishing to me that anyone would want to include coercion as one of
the tools for getting children to learn specific things, or more accurately
*appear* to learn things by completing a certain amount of schoolwork. Yet
it happens all the time in schooling situations. I would consider it as the
opposite of unschooling.
Or are you meaning coercion relative to other behavior/areas of life than
the "educational component" of unschooling?
Coercion comes from an absence of trust. If a person feels like they have to
use coercion to achieve some goals about their child's behavior or activity,
and say so here, they are likely to be invited to rethink those goals, the
assumptions behind the goals, as well as offered alternative strategies that
are more in keeping with one of the most fundamental principles of
Unschooling - trusting in our children and promoting their trust in us.
So now some musings:
People seem to come to "whole life" Unschooling from two directions. Many
will say in their introductions that Unschooling seemed a natural
progression from attachment parenting and the gamut of gentle child rearing
practices. That is how we came to it. We already had complete freedom around
food (I didn't make candy available to my infant btw, but she sure liked
apple sauce), encouraged computer use, had no bedtime (she just went with
us), allowed potty learning to just happen, and had made an inviolable
commitment to not spanking or punishing - including imposed "consequences".
Honesty compels me to admit that TV freedom I wondered about having read
some of those goofy studies done about brain development. It was causing me
a crisis of integrity because I love the television - not every show on it -
and wanted to be free to watch it. It is very ironic that Jayn is the one
wanting it turned off, and I get to watch way less as she gets older!
I was very happy to find Unschooling, having already concluded that we would
be really, really, really relaxed homeschoolers. It meant that we could live
Jayn's education process in the same way as the rest of our life -
seamlessly. For me and dh the non-coercion came first, and the journey has
been about recognizing/stopping if we use manipulation, and finding better
strategies for problem solving - identifying and elucidating the Principles
instead of Rules (not that we had any - rules that is), chucking away the
baggage of our childhoods and educations instead of constantly opening the
bags and getting stuff out of them to use. Generally just trying to better
grasp what Jayn is communicating and meet those needs.
Other people come to Unschooling from another educational system, living a
life accustomed to regular household rules, and start their journey to
freedom with trusting children to learn whatever they like. Slowly they
renounce schoolish language and thinking (which is often inherently
coercive) and start to see their children blossom again.
Then it often spreads like osmosis to other areas of life, gradually as the
comfort level of each family is challenged. Sometimes people post the same
kind of astounded rush of relief and release of the pressure about "we have
let go of XXXX restrictions and we are all so much happier", as they did
when they first pulled their kid out of public or private school - "I only
wish we had done it sooner" is the number one sentiment expressed on line.
Probably no one on this kind of list wants to be thought of as using
coercion. They use other language from the parenting arsenal like "sensible
limits" or "concern for their safety" or "all living together comfortably".
It is only by talking about people's actual practices, what they *do* and
say to their children in any situation that the full range of what these
phrases really mean comes out.
One person's "sensible limits" means that they don't leave power tools
unattended with a 2 year old and take time to explain that these are
dangerous - perhaps they help them examine all the buttons with the plug out
and show them what the plug looks like. They get them some play tools and
safety goggles. They let them bang a mallet on some spare wood. When they
see their child heading for the workshop door, they go with them or make an
appointment to do some more banging after lunch.
Another's means that they forbid their 2 year old to enter the workshop,
explaining seriously but kindly that it is dangerous in there, then grab the
kid and make them stand in a time out corner if they have gone into the
enticingly mysterious doorway. I have read on line mothers actually
believing that their children (of various ages) spend their time outs
carefully contemplating the crime they committed for which they are being
punished/given consequences. I'm dubious (based on my recollections of my
childhood) that they are making an entirely accurate prediction of their
kids' thoughts at the time.
Sometimes the phrase "all living together comfortably", and its close cousin
"they live here too", have the unspoken assumption that what is comfortable
for the parents is either commensurate with, or takes precedence over, what
is comfortable for the child.
"No coercion whatsoever" is a marvelous goal to have, a true gift to your
children.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
taken out of context, pinpointed a nagging question I've been thinking about
since I joined. Is this list primarily a discussion list for *unschooling
without coercion*? Are there people on this list who believe that the two
are inseparable? I mean, I've gotten the feeling that there are at least a
few vocal posters who might believe that it isn't unschooling unless there
is no coercion whatsoever. Is this the focus of this particular list? I'm
not asking to trigger a debate, I just need to understand the premise of
this list. Maybe I'll go back and re-read the description on the
website.>>>
I love nagging questions - for me they are always an area of personal growth
waiting to happen.
It is astonishing to me that anyone would want to include coercion as one of
the tools for getting children to learn specific things, or more accurately
*appear* to learn things by completing a certain amount of schoolwork. Yet
it happens all the time in schooling situations. I would consider it as the
opposite of unschooling.
Or are you meaning coercion relative to other behavior/areas of life than
the "educational component" of unschooling?
Coercion comes from an absence of trust. If a person feels like they have to
use coercion to achieve some goals about their child's behavior or activity,
and say so here, they are likely to be invited to rethink those goals, the
assumptions behind the goals, as well as offered alternative strategies that
are more in keeping with one of the most fundamental principles of
Unschooling - trusting in our children and promoting their trust in us.
So now some musings:
People seem to come to "whole life" Unschooling from two directions. Many
will say in their introductions that Unschooling seemed a natural
progression from attachment parenting and the gamut of gentle child rearing
practices. That is how we came to it. We already had complete freedom around
food (I didn't make candy available to my infant btw, but she sure liked
apple sauce), encouraged computer use, had no bedtime (she just went with
us), allowed potty learning to just happen, and had made an inviolable
commitment to not spanking or punishing - including imposed "consequences".
Honesty compels me to admit that TV freedom I wondered about having read
some of those goofy studies done about brain development. It was causing me
a crisis of integrity because I love the television - not every show on it -
and wanted to be free to watch it. It is very ironic that Jayn is the one
wanting it turned off, and I get to watch way less as she gets older!
I was very happy to find Unschooling, having already concluded that we would
be really, really, really relaxed homeschoolers. It meant that we could live
Jayn's education process in the same way as the rest of our life -
seamlessly. For me and dh the non-coercion came first, and the journey has
been about recognizing/stopping if we use manipulation, and finding better
strategies for problem solving - identifying and elucidating the Principles
instead of Rules (not that we had any - rules that is), chucking away the
baggage of our childhoods and educations instead of constantly opening the
bags and getting stuff out of them to use. Generally just trying to better
grasp what Jayn is communicating and meet those needs.
Other people come to Unschooling from another educational system, living a
life accustomed to regular household rules, and start their journey to
freedom with trusting children to learn whatever they like. Slowly they
renounce schoolish language and thinking (which is often inherently
coercive) and start to see their children blossom again.
Then it often spreads like osmosis to other areas of life, gradually as the
comfort level of each family is challenged. Sometimes people post the same
kind of astounded rush of relief and release of the pressure about "we have
let go of XXXX restrictions and we are all so much happier", as they did
when they first pulled their kid out of public or private school - "I only
wish we had done it sooner" is the number one sentiment expressed on line.
Probably no one on this kind of list wants to be thought of as using
coercion. They use other language from the parenting arsenal like "sensible
limits" or "concern for their safety" or "all living together comfortably".
It is only by talking about people's actual practices, what they *do* and
say to their children in any situation that the full range of what these
phrases really mean comes out.
One person's "sensible limits" means that they don't leave power tools
unattended with a 2 year old and take time to explain that these are
dangerous - perhaps they help them examine all the buttons with the plug out
and show them what the plug looks like. They get them some play tools and
safety goggles. They let them bang a mallet on some spare wood. When they
see their child heading for the workshop door, they go with them or make an
appointment to do some more banging after lunch.
Another's means that they forbid their 2 year old to enter the workshop,
explaining seriously but kindly that it is dangerous in there, then grab the
kid and make them stand in a time out corner if they have gone into the
enticingly mysterious doorway. I have read on line mothers actually
believing that their children (of various ages) spend their time outs
carefully contemplating the crime they committed for which they are being
punished/given consequences. I'm dubious (based on my recollections of my
childhood) that they are making an entirely accurate prediction of their
kids' thoughts at the time.
Sometimes the phrase "all living together comfortably", and its close cousin
"they live here too", have the unspoken assumption that what is comfortable
for the parents is either commensurate with, or takes precedence over, what
is comfortable for the child.
"No coercion whatsoever" is a marvelous goal to have, a true gift to your
children.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
Robyn Coburn
<<<I'm not asking to trigger a debate, I just need to understand the premise
of this list. Maybe I'll go back and re-read the description on the
website.>>>
Debates about ideas can be really useful. Sometimes they can lead to great
epiphanies and paradigm shifts. Just because something you post triggers a
debate doesn't mean you are therefore obliged to be the "third speaker" for
its entirety.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
of this list. Maybe I'll go back and re-read the description on the
website.>>>
Debates about ideas can be really useful. Sometimes they can lead to great
epiphanies and paradigm shifts. Just because something you post triggers a
debate doesn't mean you are therefore obliged to be the "third speaker" for
its entirety.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
Joanne Watson
On Thursday, June 24, 2004, at 09:00 PM, Ren wrote:
It actually would be very helpful to me if I could find ways to
describe the clinical terms "ADHD, ODD, MD" without going through all
my daughter's symptomatic stuff, which feels more like I'm assessing
her naked in front of a crowd. I've thought about this for a long
time. I can't stand the labels either, but I want to communicate
what's going on with her without extolling a lot of verbiage.
If I start telling you all the history, we end up off topic and
questioning how these "conditions" get evaluated, which in itself is a
huge enigma to many of us. If we're talking about brain chemistry and
how it regulates our emotional responses and social interactions, how
do I simplify or demystify all that neuroscience? Also, how do I put
the "severity" of something of this nature into context for you without
sounding, again, like I'm assessing?
I feel a pang of discomfort inside my own body every time I use these
an-acronyms. I welcome an alternative way to describe what she
experiences and exhibits without all the labels.
What do you recommend?
Joanne
> I think another great unschooling discussion, is how we can supportHi Ren,
> unique challenges without the above damaging labels.
>
It actually would be very helpful to me if I could find ways to
describe the clinical terms "ADHD, ODD, MD" without going through all
my daughter's symptomatic stuff, which feels more like I'm assessing
her naked in front of a crowd. I've thought about this for a long
time. I can't stand the labels either, but I want to communicate
what's going on with her without extolling a lot of verbiage.
If I start telling you all the history, we end up off topic and
questioning how these "conditions" get evaluated, which in itself is a
huge enigma to many of us. If we're talking about brain chemistry and
how it regulates our emotional responses and social interactions, how
do I simplify or demystify all that neuroscience? Also, how do I put
the "severity" of something of this nature into context for you without
sounding, again, like I'm assessing?
I feel a pang of discomfort inside my own body every time I use these
an-acronyms. I welcome an alternative way to describe what she
experiences and exhibits without all the labels.
What do you recommend?
Joanne
Joanne Watson
On Thursday, June 24, 2004, at 09:00 PM, Ren wrote:
I'm not mad at you for asking why she needs to be forced to bed at
10pm. I just don't know how to explain thirteen years of history to
you in the context of my own life experience and values that would
adequately answer your
question succinctly.
Maybe you shouldn't question me. Maybe you should tell me more about
you and let me learn more about your
own parenting journey.
Joanne
> Maybe asking for ideas on how to help her cue in to her own body,Ren,
> while dealing with her unique character traits would be more useful
> than getting mad at people for asking why she needs to be forced to
> bed at 10pm. Just an idea.
>
>
I'm not mad at you for asking why she needs to be forced to bed at
10pm. I just don't know how to explain thirteen years of history to
you in the context of my own life experience and values that would
adequately answer your
question succinctly.
Maybe you shouldn't question me. Maybe you should tell me more about
you and let me learn more about your
own parenting journey.
Joanne
Fetteroll
on 6/24/04 9:14 PM, sandrewmama at sandrewmama@... wrote:
think discussing coercive parenting is discussing unschooling.
As Pam mentioned, I think it's more useful to discuss unschooling than
unschoolers. (Or discuss what people who call themselves unschoolers do
since what they do isn't always about applying the philosophy of unschooling
to life.)
think it's for discussion of unschooling. But some people extend the
unschooling philosophy into parenting so for them they would still be
discussion unschooling when they're discussing parenting issues.
But for those who don't extend the philosophy of unschooling into parenting,
it's not discussing unschooling to discuss parenting. If that makes sense?
Joyce
> I mean, I've gotten the feeling that there are at least a fewI think people can unschool and still be coercive in parenting. But I don't
> vocal posters who might believe that it isn't unschooling unless there is no
> coercion whatsoever.
think discussing coercive parenting is discussing unschooling.
As Pam mentioned, I think it's more useful to discuss unschooling than
unschoolers. (Or discuss what people who call themselves unschoolers do
since what they do isn't always about applying the philosophy of unschooling
to life.)
> Is this list primarily a discussion list for *unschooling withoutI don't think the list is for discussion of unschooling without coercion. I
> coercion*?
think it's for discussion of unschooling. But some people extend the
unschooling philosophy into parenting so for them they would still be
discussion unschooling when they're discussing parenting issues.
But for those who don't extend the philosophy of unschooling into parenting,
it's not discussing unschooling to discuss parenting. If that makes sense?
> Are there people on this list who believe that the two areInseparable for me but not for others.
> inseparable?
Joyce
Robyn Coburn
<<<I feel a pang of discomfort inside my own body every time I use these
an-acronyms. I welcome an alternative way to describe what she
experiences and exhibits without all the labels.
What do you recommend?>>>
Visiting the Special Needs folder on the www.unschooling.com message boards.
Indeed all the folders.
Reading anything you can by Anne Ohman and Mary Gold, unschooling mothers.
One link is: http://sandradodd.com/specialunschooling
Working really hard to change your language use, so that instead of seeing
behaviors as symptomatic of something else, you describe them in simple
observational terms. An example being instead of saying "having a tantrum"
one might describe "he is crying and stamping his feet." This is another
idea from the wonderful toolbox of Non-Violent Communication.
Quit using clinical words like "exhibits", unless you are talking about her
art work. Maybe talk about how she seems to be feeling.
The danger of assessments and labeling is that they are insidious, and worm
their way into our communicating against our will sometimes. If we desire to
be free of that worm (not everyone does), it takes pro-active effort to
evict that language from our thinking, just like schoolish language.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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an-acronyms. I welcome an alternative way to describe what she
experiences and exhibits without all the labels.
What do you recommend?>>>
Visiting the Special Needs folder on the www.unschooling.com message boards.
Indeed all the folders.
Reading anything you can by Anne Ohman and Mary Gold, unschooling mothers.
One link is: http://sandradodd.com/specialunschooling
Working really hard to change your language use, so that instead of seeing
behaviors as symptomatic of something else, you describe them in simple
observational terms. An example being instead of saying "having a tantrum"
one might describe "he is crying and stamping his feet." This is another
idea from the wonderful toolbox of Non-Violent Communication.
Quit using clinical words like "exhibits", unless you are talking about her
art work. Maybe talk about how she seems to be feeling.
The danger of assessments and labeling is that they are insidious, and worm
their way into our communicating against our will sometimes. If we desire to
be free of that worm (not everyone does), it takes pro-active effort to
evict that language from our thinking, just like schoolish language.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
pam sorooshian
On Jun 25, 2004, at 2:20 AM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
coercion and am not denying it because it is what I'm going to do.
My kids are generally cooperative and even take initiative in helping
around the house - and will wash the dishes or do laundry once in a
while just because they notice it needs doing. They're also extremely
messy - leave stuff all over - trash, dirty dishes, toys, dirty
clothes, books, etc. A LOT of clutter everywhere - a LOT LOT!!
But today I'm going to get them up and insist that we all do housework
together for an hour.
Then we're going off to the beach with lots of friends and we'll be
there for TEN hours - campfire, etc.
If they don't help and the house isn't straightened up and cleaned up
significantly, I really don't want to go to spend the whole day and
evening at the beach, I want to stay home and clean the house. I have
VERY low standards and we've fallen below my low standards - dirty
smelly dishes, no clean clothes, a thick layer of dust, grubby
bathroom, and so much clutter everywhere that we can't walk safely
through the house. We have been very busy - out of the house all day
and evening for days in a row. (You'd think the house would not get so
messy when we're so seldom home, huh?)
I think they'll just do it when I ask - so maybe I won't have to feel
like I'm coercing them. They see the need and will want it done, too.
They'll comply with my request.
So maybe it isn't coercion - but, truth is, I intend for them to do it.
So - we haven't fully come around to no coercion in the housework area.
I LOVE the stuff people post about it - and it has helped me
tremendously to get perspective.
If my kids were littler, if I was starting earlier, I'd change the way
we've dealt with housework.
But, right now, I just want to go to the beach and have fun and then
NOT come home to a stinky, messy, gross house.
Unschooling and NonCoercive Parenting are not one and the same thing.
NCP has a following and its own lists.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Probably no one on this kind of list wants to be thought of as usingI'm about to go get my kids out of bed and coerce them. I see it as
> coercion. They use other language from the parenting arsenal like
> "sensible
> limits" or "concern for their safety" or "all living together
> comfortably".
> It is only by talking about people's actual practices, what they *do*
> and
> say to their children in any situation that the full range of what
> these
> phrases really mean comes out.
coercion and am not denying it because it is what I'm going to do.
My kids are generally cooperative and even take initiative in helping
around the house - and will wash the dishes or do laundry once in a
while just because they notice it needs doing. They're also extremely
messy - leave stuff all over - trash, dirty dishes, toys, dirty
clothes, books, etc. A LOT of clutter everywhere - a LOT LOT!!
But today I'm going to get them up and insist that we all do housework
together for an hour.
Then we're going off to the beach with lots of friends and we'll be
there for TEN hours - campfire, etc.
If they don't help and the house isn't straightened up and cleaned up
significantly, I really don't want to go to spend the whole day and
evening at the beach, I want to stay home and clean the house. I have
VERY low standards and we've fallen below my low standards - dirty
smelly dishes, no clean clothes, a thick layer of dust, grubby
bathroom, and so much clutter everywhere that we can't walk safely
through the house. We have been very busy - out of the house all day
and evening for days in a row. (You'd think the house would not get so
messy when we're so seldom home, huh?)
I think they'll just do it when I ask - so maybe I won't have to feel
like I'm coercing them. They see the need and will want it done, too.
They'll comply with my request.
So maybe it isn't coercion - but, truth is, I intend for them to do it.
So - we haven't fully come around to no coercion in the housework area.
I LOVE the stuff people post about it - and it has helped me
tremendously to get perspective.
If my kids were littler, if I was starting earlier, I'd change the way
we've dealt with housework.
But, right now, I just want to go to the beach and have fun and then
NOT come home to a stinky, messy, gross house.
Unschooling and NonCoercive Parenting are not one and the same thing.
NCP has a following and its own lists.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Robyn Coburn
<<<<Pam wrote:
If they don't help and the house isn't straightened up and cleaned up
significantly, I really don't want to go to spend the whole day and
evening at the beach, I want to stay home and clean the house. I have
VERY low standards and we've fallen below my low standards - dirty
smelly dishes, no clean clothes, a thick layer of dust, grubby
bathroom, and so much clutter everywhere that we can't walk safely
through the house. We have been very busy - out of the house all day
and evening for days in a row. (You'd think the house would not get so
messy when we're so seldom home, huh?)
I think they'll just do it when I ask - so maybe I won't have to feel
like I'm coercing them. They see the need and will want it done, too.
They'll comply with my request.
So maybe it isn't coercion - but, truth is, I intend for them to do it.
So - we haven't fully come around to no coercion in the housework area.
I LOVE the stuff people post about it - and it has helped me
tremendously to get perspective.>>>>
This is real life - there is a real life fun opportunity that would be
delayed if you were left to do all this stuff by yourself. Your kids are
also reasonable people who are presumably not carrying around a bunch of
resentments from any time long in the past when chores were mandatory and
there were parent imposed consequences. This is a case where the parent
attitude - I really need your help and will be grateful - makes all the
difference, so the child attitude is not - Do I HAVE to? Darn it.
I think when a family is in the process of moving from "chores" to not,
there is likely to be a period of time, not unlike deschooling, when *any*
request, no matter how reasonable, is likely to be looked at with suspicion.
Testing of the parent's real resolve might occur for a while with kids
saying "no" just to see if they can.
In your household, I expect that if any of them said "no", there would be a
genuine and important reason behind it, and there would be discussion and
brainstorming.
<<<<If my kids were littler, if I was starting earlier, I'd change the way
we've dealt with housework.>>>>
Since my kid is little, and our home is a shambles, I'm extremely interested
to know what you'd do differently if you had a time machine.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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If they don't help and the house isn't straightened up and cleaned up
significantly, I really don't want to go to spend the whole day and
evening at the beach, I want to stay home and clean the house. I have
VERY low standards and we've fallen below my low standards - dirty
smelly dishes, no clean clothes, a thick layer of dust, grubby
bathroom, and so much clutter everywhere that we can't walk safely
through the house. We have been very busy - out of the house all day
and evening for days in a row. (You'd think the house would not get so
messy when we're so seldom home, huh?)
I think they'll just do it when I ask - so maybe I won't have to feel
like I'm coercing them. They see the need and will want it done, too.
They'll comply with my request.
So maybe it isn't coercion - but, truth is, I intend for them to do it.
So - we haven't fully come around to no coercion in the housework area.
I LOVE the stuff people post about it - and it has helped me
tremendously to get perspective.>>>>
This is real life - there is a real life fun opportunity that would be
delayed if you were left to do all this stuff by yourself. Your kids are
also reasonable people who are presumably not carrying around a bunch of
resentments from any time long in the past when chores were mandatory and
there were parent imposed consequences. This is a case where the parent
attitude - I really need your help and will be grateful - makes all the
difference, so the child attitude is not - Do I HAVE to? Darn it.
I think when a family is in the process of moving from "chores" to not,
there is likely to be a period of time, not unlike deschooling, when *any*
request, no matter how reasonable, is likely to be looked at with suspicion.
Testing of the parent's real resolve might occur for a while with kids
saying "no" just to see if they can.
In your household, I expect that if any of them said "no", there would be a
genuine and important reason behind it, and there would be discussion and
brainstorming.
<<<<If my kids were littler, if I was starting earlier, I'd change the way
we've dealt with housework.>>>>
Since my kid is little, and our home is a shambles, I'm extremely interested
to know what you'd do differently if you had a time machine.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
Wendy E
I think it's important to note that there is a difference between
saying "I need your help doing this..." ...because it needs to be
done and you are capable of doing it and you live here too...and I'm
giving you this random "chore" so you will learn responsibility (and
I'm basically trying to control you), kwim? The first example
maintains integrity for all...the second does not.
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
saying "I need your help doing this..." ...because it needs to be
done and you are capable of doing it and you live here too...and I'm
giving you this random "chore" so you will learn responsibility (and
I'm basically trying to control you), kwim? The first example
maintains integrity for all...the second does not.
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> <<<<Pam wrote:up
> If they don't help and the house isn't straightened up and cleaned
> significantly, I really don't want to go to spend the whole dayand
> evening at the beach, I want to stay home and clean the house. Ihave
> VERY low standards and we've fallen below my low standards - dirtyday
> smelly dishes, no clean clothes, a thick layer of dust, grubby
> bathroom, and so much clutter everywhere that we can't walk safely
> through the house. We have been very busy - out of the house all
> and evening for days in a row. (You'd think the house would notget so
> messy when we're so seldom home, huh?)feel
>
> I think they'll just do it when I ask - so maybe I won't have to
> like I'm coercing them. They see the need and will want it done,too.
> They'll comply with my request.do it.
>
> So maybe it isn't coercion - but, truth is, I intend for them to
>area.
> So - we haven't fully come around to no coercion in the housework
>would be
> I LOVE the stuff people post about it - and it has helped me
> tremendously to get perspective.>>>>
>
> This is real life - there is a real life fun opportunity that
> delayed if you were left to do all this stuff by yourself. Yourkids are
> also reasonable people who are presumably not carrying around abunch of
> resentments from any time long in the past when chores weremandatory and
> there were parent imposed consequences. This is a case where theparent
> attitude - I really need your help and will be grateful - makesall the
> difference, so the child attitude is not - Do I HAVE to? Darn it.not,
>
> I think when a family is in the process of moving from "chores" to
> there is likely to be a period of time, not unlike deschooling,when *any*
> request, no matter how reasonable, is likely to be looked at withsuspicion.
> Testing of the parent's real resolve might occur for a while withkids
> saying "no" just to see if they can.would be a
>
> In your household, I expect that if any of them said "no", there
> genuine and important reason behind it, and there would bediscussion and
> brainstorming.the way
>
> <<<<If my kids were littler, if I was starting earlier, I'd change
> we've dealt with housework.>>>>interested
>
> Since my kid is little, and our home is a shambles, I'm extremely
> to know what you'd do differently if you had a time machine.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
really tough, esp. when other people are around. They see us asking
nicely and Mikey being really grumpy in return and us not "making him
behave."
It's hard to explain it's a process. Heck, it's hard to remember it's
a process!
Breathing deeply,
aj
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> I think when a family is in the process of moving from "chores" tonot,
> there is likely to be a period of time, not unlike deschooling,when *any*
> request, no matter how reasonable, is likely to be looked at withsuspicion.
> Testing of the parent's real resolve might occur for a while withkids
> saying "no" just to see if they can.Hey, are you looking in our window?? That's where we are and it's
really tough, esp. when other people are around. They see us asking
nicely and Mikey being really grumpy in return and us not "making him
behave."
It's hard to explain it's a process. Heck, it's hard to remember it's
a process!
Breathing deeply,
aj
Ren
" We had a great weekend watching tv together and it
sparked a lot of discussion and I think we both learned a lot. "
That's great!
Once you start questioning and letting go of controls, it seems to be infectious.:) Now that you're aware of the subtle mind control adults tend to place over children, it will help every choice in the future.
So even if you're not all the way "there" (wherever there is), it's a step towards trust. Good.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
sparked a lot of discussion and I think we both learned a lot. "
That's great!
Once you start questioning and letting go of controls, it seems to be infectious.:) Now that you're aware of the subtle mind control adults tend to place over children, it will help every choice in the future.
So even if you're not all the way "there" (wherever there is), it's a step towards trust. Good.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/