Sandra Dodd:

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ignore this one:

I'm Sandra Dodd. Pam Sorooshian and I are want to talk about each other's kids because I thought it's kind of fun sometimes to hear someone else's perspective on your children.

But another thing is, if I knew no one schoolers, but my own kids, I could really be nervous about whether my perceptions were valid. Right? And it could just be genetics that I was, you know, zippy/noisy and they were too, so it helps a lot to see other kids and I bet it's helped you to see other people's kids here. In other people's kids, your age or a little older even if they're wild and crazy to see that they can be wild and crazy and the parents aren't freaking out.

So it's always helped me be around other people's kids. But with with Pam's, family was especially interesting because her kids are each a little older than mine. I think it's like the same the same spread just slightly older and Pam's just you know about the same amount. It's like they almost overlaid these families and it's so it's really interesting. And the first time I met Pam, she came to pick me up at the airport and I was immediately comfortable. And as I met her children, [00:01:00] Each one of them is different and it, they, they connected with me directly. It wasn't like, I was their mom's friend. I was a person to them, and that was really comfortable too.

And over the years mostly, because I get invited to California and stay at Pam's house, which is fun for me, and for Pam. And then, and sometimes my family's gone to my whole family and Pam's been to my house—to my old house. So she can't picture the new house yet. And my and my first impression of Roya, is that a knocks. Can I give Talking [00:01:30] or do you want to come? Make your part of the Android? All right, well, can can wrestle me away from this? If she can. My first impression of Roya, I think she was probably about 12. I'm not sure. Pam does the numbers and I do I don't know. She was you know, she has a really direct gaze. She doesn't avert her eyes. She just looks right at you like inside you around the corners of you and I could look right back. So that was good for us. It's like look at me. I'm looking at you and she's just very direct and very quick. [00:02:00] She just says what she means and she says it straight to you. And I love that because we can have the fastest conversations and I hate to do this without seeing Pam's reaction because I wanted to go with what, you know, then I know. It's like, it's like that. Sort of, what are you talking about? Our? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that helps. And I've always really enjoyed Roya and I know a lot about her because a lot of times I get to stay in her room. She's not home a lot, the older she got the less she was home and she had a really interesting room and it would change. [00:02:30] And one year It was all plastered almost floor to ceiling with poetry and just sort of randomly writing and really pretty handwriting, you know, interesting handwriting and I didn't read all of it. Nobody could have, but but it was, it was pretty, you know, what? It was. Just the idea of the way she had arranged what was about what and the dates. It was a sort of an archaeological deal. And then when your shoe is doing photography, And there were photographs really cool, photographs mostly down from the ground close-ups of little kids. And some of them I knew from their home schooling group. Now, I recognize some of it and that was neat. So [00:03:00] being at someone's house and seeing where the, the kids in their natural habitat or the habitat, even without the kids is a whole other story to. So I think if now that you know, some family, see if you can go see them at their houses because seeing what the kids have left in, their actual Burrows is scientifically. Interesting. And her roya. I wish you was just here because we wouldn't have to say anything if our kids are just kind of March up here and say hi, and introduce themselves. I wouldn't even have to say anymore. I can just tell Roy was really bright and really intense. And and [00:03:30] from my point of view, very calm. And how do we should we do this like sort of by layers or by Kid? Are we doing the horizontal sort of when they were little? As she got older and wasn't getting along with her mom. So, well, one weekend I was there and they were really frustrated. There was a lot of You know, that it's sort of like magnets. Not attracting, you know that. And and it was interesting because Pam told me, I just she's so good at these at the [00:04:00] things that she can do it, this interpersonal stuff and I'm aiso depend on her and she's so smart. I just don't know what to do. I just expect too much of her and it frustrates me. And then, and Roy on the meantime is going, I don't know what my mom wants to know what her problem is, what I just driving me crazy. And so, I looked at that and like that and said, can I go talk to her? And she said, sure it'll be great. So, I I went and told her what her mom and said and she just softened all up and she slowed right down to nothing. So I never knew that no shit. Wasn't it didn't feel to her like her mom thought she was [00:04:30] extremely bright and and competent. What she was sensing was I didn't do it right? I didn't do it. Right, whatever the heck it is. She wants I didn't do it, right? But it was just that Pam's expectations. Were that Royal could do things that Pam couldn't do socially and should you know, she could have done it. It would have been easy for her. I can't do it. Why didn't she do it? And so it was fun for me to be the go-between on that because Royal would listen to me because I was about to leave. And then Roxanna. The first few times I met Roxanna. She was hard, because [00:05:00] she didn't look at me. She looked at me when I wasn't looking, I would always see her look away. That's her. That's how I saw a Roxanna. And usually in the back of the car with a book, kind of humming should be like tapping her foot. Her singing a song and reading a book is like I have so many things to do. I can't even know you're there and she had this big wall of gosh. I'm busy and I'd look at her and I'd see her do that. And I don't know what she saw and she looked at me because I didn't get to see her. Look at me for a long time and I over. The year she warmed up to me and started talking to me and my favorite Roxanna incident Pam's, afraid for me to tell [00:05:30] but that's okay. Because my daughter Holly was little at the time, her 67 and she had a neighbor across the street who had gotten the video for cats, and they're watching it a lot and she said, you want to watch this and I looked at him, I said, it's like Opera, it's like ballet and their death, just like cats. And she said, yeah, it's really good. And I said, what's it about? And she said, so that was Holly's explanation. I don't know. And so a year past or so, and I was at Pam's house and Roxanna was just watching it all the time. She was online about it writing to people who [00:06:00] had performed in New York and just knew all the trivia. She knew who was in and why they quit and how much they used to make and how she everything there was nothing, she did know. And the people at her house where the same way I was it looks like, you know, Opera and they're just like hats, but I thought. Okay, you know, I can't stand to have a six-year-old tell me, but Roxanna is obviously bursting with this desire to communicate. Mary Zeal And I said, Okay, show tell me she don't show it to me. Really, so we sat down and we watched cats with her telling me what was going on in her answer, [00:06:30] my questions and that for me was great because I didn't have to watch it three or four times and figure it out on my own, I'd say what and should roll it back in and run back. And say this is, this is so, and so they're doing this and this is going to come back in and a couple of songs. Like, wow, okay, and I got to impress her because she wanted to know about the the heaviside layer and I have a friend who's really interested in history of electricity and I Called him at work and said, Jeff. What is this? And he told me what to look up, because there is an old dictionary. That was the old dictionary, your house. Or just [00:07:00] out there was like, this 1920 or something, really old dictionary. And that's where you had to look. Because it was a concept that was current then, and it's like now, mr. Garden, so that that was fun because I had resources electric history of electricity, and, and, and atmosphere resources. And so I when I went home I could watch. Cats with Holly. And so for me that was a huge opportunity for me to learn something. I hadn't learned and it was fun to Roxanna to find somebody who was willing to I had [00:07:30] time because I wasn't home. You don't have to do the laundry. I don't do the dishes. I just sat and watched it with Roxanna and I think her dad Cyrus. I love Cyrus. He's so sweet and have a lot of fun with him, but he was a little baffled. I think that I would bother, but I think he was grateful to because it, he didn't have to hear it for a few hours. So. And then there is Rosie. And Rosie would look at me, very sweetly. She has the sweetest little face and it's all bright and lit up, but she wouldn't really talk to me. I don't know what I would see [00:08:00] her interacting with other people and when she was with the other kids. She's just a little Rose. She just totally like a lit up flower. She's I don't know how to describe her. She's just so sweet and she's so... everywhere she goes, it just lights up that place, but I've never talked to her very much. But every time I hear about what she's doing, I wish I was doing that. I wish I had her life and she's done. All kinds of really neat theatrical, kinds of little things, dancing and singing, kind of stuff. And they're always singing that family. I loved it. We be in the car and then put on [00:08:30] some type in there all just really singing full voice and really nice and I got some songs from them. That made me a tape of some of their favorites in the best of Pam's car, kind of thing, and Holly still listens to those all the time. She's listen to him that week before I left and so their family has helped my family's life a lot and I've probably think it's something else, but I'm going to If Pam attorney,

I stopped in Albuquerque on my way to Dallas and Sandra and I went to Dallas to a conference together, some [00:09:00] years ago, six years ago or five years ago or something and her kids actually weren't there. Holly was there and Holly went with us. The other boys and her husband were gone, had gone camping. It was Memorial Day weekend and they picked me up at the airport and I got in the car and Holly was in the back seat, and she was 6. And it was almost summer, right? The summer, and from the back seat. She [00:09:30] sort of piped up, "Mom, I really want some plums." and Sandra kind of sit down. Okay, we'll get you some plums.

She said to me, "Do you mind going by the grocery store on the way home?"

"No, that'll be fun." It's actually fun to go to the grocery store and other people's cities and stuff like that. Right?

And so we went to the grocery store and it's early for plums—plums in season, and they didn't have any. But I think Holly was pretty sure she'd seen plums either, I don't know, somebody's house or she'd seen him in a store or something.

So Sandra said, well, let's just try another store. And we were just chatting chatting chatting talking in the front seat and Holly was just waiting to get her plumps and we got to another store and ran around and the other store a little bit. And and I forgot enough we got plums in that story. We actually went to a third but I've actually gone to a third store, and we got a little bag of plums and drove back to their house. And Holly was happily munching, plums in the backseat, and Sandra and I were chatting, in general, non-stop.

And there were all kinds of other wonderful things that happened that weekend and it was great when I came back. I got to actually meet [00:10:30] Marty, and Kirby and Keith and it was all kinds of wonderful things. But this was an amazingly momentous thing that happened about these plums. And I know Sandra thinks I'm funny because I keep talking about this plum thing, but I had, I had really understood unschooling but I understood it as not doing school, not not doing curriculum, not doing tests, not giving grades not pre-planning, their education. [00:11:00] And I had really interested it as you to supporting their interests, but in my mind, they were still pretty much, you know, academic interests, you know, support their academic interests, kind of encourage those and facilitate those. And I hadn't really fully emotionally, I guess, made the jump to what unschooling would really mean and that that weekend and it started with the plums. Turned into a really changed for me. In terms of understanding unschooling is also a parenting and family lifestyle issue [00:11:30] because I understood it as a "saying yes" philosophy as a supporting getting in, just the habit of being supportive. It wasn't it wasn't gonna matter to us at all. If we spent the whole evening going from grocery store at a grocery store because all we wanted to do was talk and we could do that and drive and I got to drive around Albuquerque, which was cool. I'd never been there and it was wonderful, but it just It struck me that even I, who was a very generous parent and very kind parent would never have at that point driven off to another grocery store. And then I probably [00:12:00] wouldn't I want probably would have said, okay, next time I go to the grocery store. I'll see if I can find you some plums. I wouldn't have said, okay, we'll stop and get you some now.

Holly was great. She wasn't like begging or nagging or anything whining. She just was like very sweetly and simply said, you know, Mom I'd really like some plums. Okay, so it's a instant and immediate reaction was to say, Let's see if we can make that happen and I was so struck by it. Holly was totally grateful and appreciative. She thanked [00:12:30] her a lot. You know, she totally got it that we've driven around looking for them, and she told us how much she enjoyed them. You know, she had several in the car and how these are good. Thank you. I really like this and I was changed by this one little tiny experience because I got it that unschooling is a big huge, huge change in your relationship. That it's a relationship change with your kids and that you have to say yes as often as you possibly can.

Well, then I got to [00:13:00] eventually and I got to meet actually had met her being Marty once earlier, but I've got to know them better and they came and they stayed at my house and we spend a lot of time together. So I got to see what the results were of saying "Yes" all the time and it certainly wasn't a bunch of spoiled brat kids, which is what, you know, standard people in the neighborhood would say, you know, they were considerate and kind and Apple. And very, very trustworthy.

One of the things that struck Sandra was that what they were all at our house ones and all of us adults, all [00:13:30] went off and went to bed and left the boys and the girls, you know, her boys and my girls. She has two older boys and I have three girls and we left them all just sleeping in the living room. And later. She said, did you know, did you guys even think about this? Did you worry about the fact you're leaving your girls out there sleeping with our boys in the living room on the floor?

You know, there was there was no way we would have thought about that. And no way we would have worried about that. Had any hesitation because the spirit of these kids was [00:14:00] so authentic and genuine and they weren't going to do anything that we wouldn't be happy about. It was, nobody was just not going to happen. So I think that what I got out of my getting to know Kirby and Marty and Holly was really, for me, it was their wonderful and I enjoy them. A lot. and I do have things I could say about them, but it was much more me watching Sandra, and them is what I got out of it. And so the things I have to say, [00:14:30] are a lot more like watching her instant reaction to say. Yes, every time one time when I saw Sandra have to say, you know, no, because we were late to get to the airport. Holly didn't want to leave and we had to go. We were late and Holly was really unhappy. I saw her. Have to do it. And we had to leave, we couldn't miss our plane and I saw her talking to Holly and we had to take her and she was unhappy and crying [00:15:00] and I saw them. I saw how to do that and do it, still physically take her and how to do it gently with the minimum amount of, you know, hurt and total understanding that it was reasonable for her to be upset and not want to go and talking about what else we would be able to do and how we could get back together with her friends later and what was going to happen.

She was six. It was hard for understand. I learned from watching that interaction so much and my kids [00:15:30] are so lucky that they had that they got me to watch that. So what I would want to say is that it's really very useful for people with young children to hang around with moms who have experienced and have come down and kind of know how to do these things.

That's one but the other one is that unschooling is far more than just not doing school because when you say you're going to be Of of your children's, passions and interests. It doesn't mean I'm going to be selectively supportive. Okay, it means that if their interest is that they want to taste plums, [00:16:00] that you find plums. Then what I saw was total turnaround, I slept at my in Marty and Kirby's room and kind of occupied it and lots of their stuff was there and their games and the things they wanted to do. They lived in a small house in those days and they were gracious about it. No, there was no question in their minds. There was no complaining. There was no, they were nice to me. They made sure that I had what I needed. They got me a light cause they thought I might want to read in bed, you know.

My concern about [00:16:30] leaving the boys there as I grew up in a family with four girls. And I knew the attitude of my dad about boys, being where he couldn't see, you know, his girls. And I didn't know Pam's husband that well to know how he felt about that because I'd always been around with, they're all girls and he's Iranian and I didn't know what their attitude was about, you know, big stinky boys, from other states and then go. Is that that nighttime thing was in the worst Keith and I were out in a camper trailer. We weren't even in the house and then a bunch of us went to the mall and left. One of them left Kirby. I think [00:17:00] Marty went with us, the mall maybe, and probably stayed there with some of the girls. And nobody was there, no adult through there and now they're all common and I trust my boys, but coming from a from a family of girls. I don't expect anybody else. Address my voice. These are all good. I'm not afraid of him. Okay juggling kids making Options with two competitive children like children who are competitive of each other or competitive in the whole world. We tried to to arrange two [00:17:30] separate kids subtly, you know, not in the sort of time out or just get away from him kind of way. But one of my best tricks has been if, if it's the proximity, that's the problem. And one of them is about to go ballistic and you know, grab the other by the throat or something. I just say, could you help me get that thing out of the car, you know, anything physical and separated take one away for a real reason. And they both calm down, but if it doesn't look like they were hauled away. I think that's a trick. Probably, I learned teaching now because another teacher told me, if two boys are in a fight, never grabbed [00:18:00] the winter because he'll hurt you grab the loser because he wants to be rescued. He saves face. The other one saves face and you don't get hurt. And so even when it's not a physical fight that tends to work if you figure out which one's the underdog and say, Marty, I really need help in the garage. Could you help me for a minute? He feels important. The other guy says, if you'd have stayed here, I'd have kicked his ass and and It's over, but you might not have boys. You might be thinking about that. But even even and what you tell a girl story because you got you have girls.

[00:18:31] How do you juggle, three demanding little girls? Making connections with competitive children are competitive with each other. I have that. My middle child is competitive with both the older and the younger for sure, you know, close your eyes and open them again, and they'll be able to just enjoy being competitive and they're demanding of your time. You've got, you know, you've got two sides and a lap [00:19:01] and enlist. The older ones to Baby the younger ones, a little sometimes and list the younger ones. Be helpful. Don't worry about it too much because they are. That'll stop the up. That'll pass. You can see the pictures that I'm passing around there. Other people in those pictures besides my children. Those are important people in our lives, my family and close friends and homeschooling group. And you know, there's one picture of Roya and Rosie hugging each other and, you know, where we there were years [00:19:31] where Roy had big things. She wanted to go do and Rosie's six years younger and needed to stay home. And didn't want to be in that car seat. One more time and it was just difficult and hard and, and look at them in this picture. They just adore each other, and now, Roy has off and she's going to be gone for. She's been gone for two months. She's been home for one day while I was here. And now she's going to be gone for three more months, and Rosie wants to call her sometimes every two hours. [00:20:01] She misses her a lot. And so competitive has has made way for Or loneliness and missing her and the competitiveness between the middle child and the older and younger is gone because the older child is kind of off and on her own thing. And now the two younger ones are really close and and have really developed their relationship. It's just the moms tired, you know, the parent is tired when you've got your feeling pulled in all directions and that's just life [00:20:31] with little kids. Yeah. There are all kinds of little things that you already know. Even whoever asked the question, you know. Know what to do, you know how to, you know, send one of them off with somebody else whenever you can and have special time with your with each one. And even if it's five minutes of real Focus time and looking in their eyes and touching them and making sure that you're not too busy to spend those those few minutes when they need it sticking one in the in the bedroom with some special toy, while you get to give the other one a bath and, you know, all those things, [00:21:01] what you really need to know is that it's okay and that it will pass and that you'll miss it. I Tell you how much I miss the three little girls in the steamy bathroom all wanting me to you know, be watching them or telling them dry and you know all those moments when they were all pulling on me in one of them fighting over who was going to sit in my lap, you know, you'll miss those days. So don't don't regret them. Just enjoy them. Enjoy it. No matter how uncomfortable and tired you are, and your eyes are bleary and all you wish you could do is go to the bathroom actually, lock the door, [00:21:33] shut the door and have it actually staged shot. Talk to talk on the phone. And I know, I know it's hard to believe how fast it'll be, but everybody that's got older kids marines back. They're going, they know, just enjoy it, enjoy that. Enjoy the competition itself, embrace it. And just know that that's really normal, that shows. They've got good strong, you know, willpower and they they're out to get something. They're going to go after what they want. You know, they're always going to want [00:22:03] someone to love them and want to be close to other people and Good. This is a good thing. Okay, I'm here without my children and talk made me go. I had to leave her talk the other day yesterday and will call my kids because they're too busy to be demanding my attention. So that's the answer.

Marty had a lot had a hard time because Kirby hit puberty and there were few years in there when Kirby just didn't want to have Marty play with him or hang around with his friends and [00:22:33] would say so, I mean, it's enough that he knows it without it being said again and again. And just about a year and a half ago. I told my dad noticed it Kirby was letting Marty hang out and inviting him to go with him places and stuff. And and I said Kirby, I it's I really appreciate you including Marty and some of this stuff while I know you wouldn't have to and he said Marty's cool. And that was neat. I wouldn't, I know there's a temptation to schedule and measure and say, okay. He got to go out to dinner with you. So, each, one of them [00:23:03] has to go out to dinner with you. It has to be of comparable expense. Formality and time but that's not what kids want. I mean some might some might be really going. Hey that cost $19 in might only cost 12. You owe me but I think pretty much they need what they need and one of them might seem to you cheap and easy and small and to there might be huge. So if somebody just got a new Xbox and the other one went to camp and the third one's saying, what about me? What they really might need is that [00:23:33] you write a letter to Grandma saying that he has been the most wonderful human ever. Oh, the sweetest guy and you're so proud of him and he you know, something like that can mean so much more to a kid than we think if with Arnold balance sheets of time and money. And so don't, don't wait till you, can afford another eight dollars worth of stuff. If what they really want is to go with you to the store and have your undivided attention for an hour and don't underestimate the value of just holding them in your lap or lying down at them till they go to sleep. Because [00:24:04] we talk

I'm thinking of a few of the things that I did do when they were younger. And one of them was each of my girls separately had their own secret. I love you hand, squeeze. And I don't know if the other if I think they know that each other had one, but it was secret we would do it quietly. And so, you know, one of them was like a like a just I love you started with the oldest. It was just, I love you. I'm just go. I love you and then I expected. I love you too. Okay, and so, you know, what kind of stressful moments are? When I was starting [00:24:34] to feel it, you know, anticipating. This is always important to If that with time and when I would start to feel that she was getting a little left out, and the younger kids were taking up a lot of my time, you know, all it. A lot of times. I would head it off with just a reaching over and taking her hand and just doing the little secret. I love you hands, please. And then the other two, I just made one up and we did one for each of them little little nothing things, but it could head off a big problem. And the other thing, the other thing was that to enlist the slightly [00:25:04] older child. I mean, I'm talking even if you're talking about a four-year-old and a two-year-old and that's to enlist the slightly older child and feeling, like it's the two of you being proud of the little one or helping out the little one. And then when it's the little or child again, feel on the same team, you know, that it's the two of you being proud of, look what the older one can do. So if the older ones able to do something on the monkey bars bars and the little one can't do it yet. It's the two of you. Wow, look what Johnny can do it in that cool and together being proud [00:25:34] of them so that they kind of get that built in and it won't work really well. Sometimes but over over time that'll happen. And that's worked really well in our family of the girls are really proud of each other character video games computer TV used obsession. Is it my kids take any open time and plug in. How do you get them to choose other options? I've allowed. Um to plug in as much and whenever they want, but I'd like to see them. Choose other activities. Also [00:26:04] Sandra talk to my hometown wants and said something that everybody there has used a million times when talking to each other, and it's like a code word now, so, we all know what it means, but she was talking, she is Elvis. She was talking to an audience like this. And there was there were open Windows, big, huge wide, open Windows behind her. And we had flowering peach trees in bloom and they were back there in the sky was blue, As Long Beach, California, it Just a gorgeous day, you know, 72 degrees and just as beautiful as it could [00:26:34] be and she was standing with her back to it and the audience had their what we're looking at it. But the speaker before her had closed, all the blinds had gone up and purposely shut all the blinds.

Okay, Sandra got up and started to talk and then said, oh, hang on a second and went and opened all the blinds and said, if I'm not more entertaining than a flowering Peach Tree, I'm in trouble, you know, I shouldn't I have, I need to be able to entice you to listen to me. And if not, then you're better off watching the trees and And you know, I'm sure there was some people who probably kind of went back and forth a little, you know, and watch the trees [00:27:04] and listen to her and you know, stuff like that because they were, they were just beautiful and ever since then, when this topic of computer games and TV, and these things that adults worry about the kids spending too much time on comes up, somebody in my home school group will you know, will mention in somebody else will go, I don't know, got to open those blinds, you know, you don't want to just close the blinds to keep them from seeing it. That's not. That's, that's You know, you should make your life more enticing, that's your challenge. [00:27:34] And if you can't and if it's not then that's that's something big they're going on for that kid, and they should be doing that. So Alexander talk more about it. But in my group, people can just say, those are just flowering peach trees. We should you. Leave the blinds open. Okay, let them enjoy it. And then if that, if you think, they've spent enough time gazing at the flowering peach trees, and you want to get their attention somewhere else, then that's your job. Make it more exciting, more entertaining, more fun, were satisfying in some way.

[00:28:06] When parents say, I don't want to watch video games. I want them to play with each other. I want them to be creative. I want them to listen to me. That just reminds me of teachers. I had it painted over the windows or put construction paper up over all the windows or put kids art up all over the windows. So that they were the most exciting thing. And I just thought that was rude and especially with unschooling. I believe that. Unless the kids have a choice, then they have no choice and that, and that's really profound. If they're not choosing to be where they're being, then they can't possibly be at full learning. Eat up full happiness [00:28:36] potential. And so, if you, if they have a choice between doing one thing, and another thing, they will choose the best thing, why wouldn't they unless they're really depressed, you know, and so, if you think the best thing is reading a book, you read, when you were little and they think the best thing is playing this new Star Wars Xbox game, which is what's the thing in meiosis week, then they probably know what's best for them. And it's it. I think it's easier to get over your own disappointment, then to change their life to be a miniature of your life, but I have found Found that by letting [00:29:06] my kids play, all the video games they want and watch all the movies they want and listen to all the music they want, but they don't always do it. And I don't notice what else to say. If there's if there is no better option. If their option is watch that game or go sit still or watch that game or go back in your room and play with the same toys you played with, but certainly they're going to do that. But if you offer them something better and I'm not saying you have to offer them, amusement parks, everyday to get away from video games and in some cases that won't work anyway, and some cases the video game is better than amusement park. Didn't offer them. Anything [00:29:36] to get them off again, that they're really obsessed with, but I don't, I think if you provide variety and opportunities that are attractive to them, then they'll want to do that as the most attractive thing because they're smart kids and they want to do what's new and attractive, but don't be so mean about the games because they're pretty wonderful. We have that new game and you can play as a bad guy, a good guy and every time you make a decision, it's sort of Rights. Whether that was the thing, a good guy would have done or bad guy and you can become more good or bad. There's a recognition. I wish Marty was in here because I I asked him if he would tell this, [00:30:06] but he's off having fun. I'm sorry to the father of whoever, those teenage girls are. He's falling around, don't hurt. Um, [00:30:36] what was the problem? It was so somebody talk right. Now, you were saying you were saying that you didn't want to play that game all of it. Once you wanted to measure it out into sections. So it Speaker 1: loud right now. We were talking about people spending Speaker 3: too much time on one game and I explained to her how I could play one game all day, but then would get boring. And by the time I beat the game in like two or three days, then I'd have no more game to play. So I told her how it's what my usual time span is. I usually beat like a planet a day. The planets are like Oh, [00:31:06] Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic. It's the game. And she just just explain to you with the good and evil M. And I've taken me about or two days to get through one planet. There are five planets. So I have like a week to play the game Speaker 2: and you measure it out. Yeah. Well, he told me better. Thank you. Marty. Thank you. Thank you. Got a microphone. Yeah, that was right. What he told me is, he didn't want to, he didn't wanted to all disappear at once and I That way with books. [00:31:36] Like I would I could read it all but I'll put it down and come back tomorrow. So he and also, he gets some time to think about it and process what happened. So so he sort of measured himself not because I'd be impressed because I didn't even know but because that way the game, would you get more, you know, time and money's worth if it lasted him a week or two, instead of lasting him, one long, long long day where he forgot to eat. I don't I have delivered food to them many times at the at the game if they have a new game. I just realized they haven't seen him for a while. I just go make him some food and take it to him. I [00:32:06] could say find a positive place, come out and eat at this table. But there's the advantage is not sufficient for me. If the goal is to get food in them. And it's worked out really. Well. They have we counted the other day. I think they have eight working game systems. Right now, all in operation, all with games. It's like the working our game Museum. Marty's counting taking them off.

[00:32:36] My kids spend a lot of time on the computer and my youngest child plays video games and borrows games from people. And we have to work in game systems. The moments one of them are from someone and they play Sims. You're familiar with Sims. That's a very lengthy Never Ending game, you know, so, you know, there are always new and interesting things you can buy. To add to it and they can sometimes spend a lot of time on it. So I don't want to be misleading and say that, you know, there self-limiting [00:33:06] in the sense that they'll go in there and like, set the timer and go. Okay. I'm going to get off of here in 30 minutes or something to him. But so do I spend a lot of time on my computer? Some of you can tell and what one of the solutions for us was to have a lot of systems, a lot of computers in the house because then we weren't doing it sequentially. Because there was a while where because everybody was waiting for their turn that But there was never a time that our whole family was actually not sitting in front of somebody was always sitting in front of a screen. And so having more systems and more computers was actually [00:33:36] better. Because then, we can say, you know, at 7:00. We're going to watch this movie. If you guys want to come watch and everybody would be free to come watch a movie together. Oh, I guess that's it in front of a screen together. But okay, notice that Marty's here. Okay, he was able to tear himself away, you know, Marty goes a lot of places. I've seen him. Lot of places there can be long periods of time where that's all they want to do last night at your yesterday. I took pictures of a bunch of kids sitting in front of the screen and the other room [00:34:06] and what I did was I stood there and I waited to capture interactive moments moments, when the kids were interacting with each other because it was really cool to see one of the kids who was kind of sitting in the back row, jump up and leaned over the shoulder of the kid who had the controls in his hand and they would like animatedly talk to each other for a few minutes and then the the usually younger kid would sit down and you could tell he'd just gotten some advice, you know. He'd like to try it out and then you'd see all the kids maybe 10 or 12 of them all going gang together and it was they were very together. They weren't sitting there [00:34:36] alone. They were interacting, you know, there were certainly adds together as a bunch of guys go into baseball. Game are and watching the baseball team play. There were more together than that because they were playing, and they were about to get their turn, you know, and my kids play like that sometimes. And sometimes they just play by themselves for hours. My children's computer used time has turned into Really wonderful writing. My two older girls. Particularly our writers, my middle daughter has created a hundred [00:35:06] and something websites. And they're lovely and wonderful, and she has decided to pick computer programming classes, and she's learned how to do all these things. And she's compute. She's created some monks or muds or musha's or whatever. Those things are role-playing games that she's actually my mother. There's a whole bunch of them whatever. She's written them herself program. Them and kids are playing them. And there's one that's been going on for about a year and a half and there's about 25 kids involved and she runs it. My oldest daughter writes, [00:35:36] poetry and participates on lists and talks about poetry and she just got a poem published in cicada magazine and, you know, so these things have eventually, we forgot to tell you the ages of the kids. I think it's in the book. Okay, so it doesn't sit around and play computer games hardly at all. More rarely, but she's still at the computer because she's, I am being and writing and talking and stuff like that. A fair amount. My middle daughter, still plays computer games, a lot. She mostly [00:36:06] plays on the open its website and place Sims, and the youngest one and that she's she does a lot of that role playing games. The youngest daughter does more of the game systems type video game type play and a little bit on Neopets and Sims. And that doesn't seem to have stopped them from doing all kinds of other things. So although there would have been Weeks and months where I would have kind of made that same kind of statement that people like to make, was the how my kid doesn't sit in front of the screen. It's just really not true. So one thing might [00:36:36] be to help feel better about it, yourself would be to maybe keep a little Journal of the other things. They're doing on the one hand and also maybe to write down and spend a little more time talking to them about what they're doing and understanding the games, a little better, and getting a better feeling for what they are getting out of that game. And then the other thing I still think is that That instead of, instead of considering setting limits because that's usually where people are going with this question is should I just go ahead and say, only one hour game one hour day or two hours a day, instead [00:37:06] of actually setting those kinds of limits? If that's really, your goal is to limit them to certain amount of time. Don't do it that way? Find other things, make it your job to have other more fun, exciting things to do. Video games in our day. Tell her that's all they'll

ever says. If you submit your you're guaranteeing they're going to take that amount and I've seen kids do that. They can only watch [00:37:36] TV an hour a day and they will cross rivers climb mountains to get there. Our where, my kids might go a couple of days and it never gets touched. They don't remember, Holly watches a lot of TV, but she watches TV like a sociologist. She's really interested in in the in the 60s and 70s social logically speaking, you know, she and and any commercials but old commercials but She's watching Mary Tyler, Moore on DVD. We get them from Netflix and she's curious about. Why was this funny? You know, what's the deal? Well, why did they make a whole TV show? About somebody who was divorced and move to [00:38:06] another city by yourself and it's hard for me to realize because that change. So gradually that that was worth making a sitcom about and she's what she watches movies like hair. And and she we watched Woodstock and she didn't care about the musicians, you know, a little interesting to her Santana, but she like but you know, she was interested in the in the shots of hippies. And she said why is it a big deal that they have naked babies? And so I'm trying to Playing the whole, you know, dress code of the 50s and WWII and how United States was was to be a Utopia of Suburbia. And she's so she's not [00:38:36] just watching it for the joke. She's like, why was this? Why is this so interesting? Why was this worth filming? And so what sometimes when it just looked if you just look at it as by the clock and by the activity, you know, snapshots or if she's sitting in front of the TV again, think about what what is the kid doing? What is she thinking? And if you can't possibly tell because they're just sitting there, looking zoned out. Don't worry. That either I have a page where I'm collecting TV stories and links. And if center.com TV, that's easy to remember, there's one on video games. It's harder to remember it's game [00:39:06] / page, but that I've collected a lot of Link's mostly homeschoolers. Not all people talking about about games. And a lot of the stories are just the same sort of thing. I used to want to limit it, it scared me. And here's what happened when I didn't some really great accounts by other moms, so you don't have to take my word for it.

Ten Bears. Marty again here. I spent a fair amount of time in places with Marty and Kirby and Holly where there was really kind of nothing to do [00:39:36] because they're visiting and we had to go get food. So we'd go to a, you know, like a little restaurant. We're just basically sitting at a table and waiting for our food to arrive and eating and stuff, and there they are. Incredible conversationalists just absolutely fascinating. There's never a minute that there's not an interesting conversation going on with them. And these are kids that spend a lot of time playing video games and and love video games and, and yet it hasn't stifled their ability to [00:40:06] think and their ability to talk and they probably spend way more time on it than my kids do. So. It's interesting to me to see that there's never a, there's never a moment where there's not something interesting to talk to them about. They're fascinating kids and I, kind of, that's one. Of those things where I kind of expect my kids to be like that to me, because they're my kids and I'm interested in them. And, you know, it sort of goes without saying that. I find them fascinating and interesting. But when it's somebody else's kids and you know that they're [00:40:36] they're doing the unlimited TV, unlimited video games, unlimited computer kind of thing. It's very striking that they're fine. They're fine. I don't know where they're doing it. I think it's because they stop and talk. It's just from having all those conversations. So that's another thing to do is don't don't just because they're off playing games, doesn't mean you can't chat talk to them and talk about interesting things and utilize the time that you do have with them very productively in terms of being with them, you know, really [00:41:06] really truly with them when you are with them. Yeah, right. Speaker 1: Marty says yeah,

Marty usually sleeps till noon sometimes one and this weekend. Every morning. I've assumed he might want to sleep for the night before he says. Yeah, wake me up on. Go to breakfast with you guys and I think you're right. And so, I've let him sleep a little long each morning and this morning, I woke him up 15 minutes of what we're supposed to be there. And I said, Marty do you really want to go with us, or do you want to sleep? So I'm going, he's gotten up every day and I'm not saying you can make every day like this, because [00:41:36] it was like this for a month straight, maybe sleep until 1 or 3. Because those drapes are great but if something is exciting enough to do they'll do it for a long time. People said well, how will your kids learn to get up and go to work? If they don't have to you know, then you start practicing every day for years and years Kirby sleeps late to he'll stay up and play games. Until he falls asleep on the controller in our or falls asleep typing at the keyboard and, you know, wakes up with a row of zeros and gets the bed. Well, when, when they put [00:42:06] how old were we was he when we move like 11 or something, when they put in, Two turtles on it 6:30 in the morning or six or some seven or something. He wanted to record it. And he has tapes and tapes that he painstakingly copied the name of the movie, out of the TV Guide or whatever, you know that he made when he was a kid and he got up every morning. He set his alarm got upset, the tape went back to sleep, woke up, wound back to the end of it, to set it for the next day and he didn't fail because it was worth doing to him. And for him as a little kid. It was worth recording Ninja Turtles and he [00:42:36] did that. And when he has a job in the first year, he's been Since he first turned 14 and the first year, I used to go wake him up and make sure you got up and took a shower and all that. Make sure you have clothes and lately. The last year. I've totally forgotten sometimes in one single time. He was late. We both know. I didn't, I didn't I didn't back him up and he and set his alarm. But usually I go up there when it's about an hour to time, and she's already in the shower. He doesn't even need me anymore. And he's just turned 17. So that's I'm impressed. I would, I would have thought I would have to help him [00:43:06] the whole time until he moved out in his girlfriend or wife had to help him. Now that That and that's not a horrible assumption because I'm willing to, you know, elbow my husband. If it's Sun's up, he's not, but it didn't, it didn't happen. Even my, even my lightly not so, dire prediction didn't happen. You want to do the attention span thing. Speaker 1: I said it down here. My child has Speaker 3: focusing problems that make them feel stupid. He has wonderful ideas. He's very creative and enjoy enjoys various activities. We continue to help him build upon his strengths. [00:43:36] But wonder if medication would help him even more. What are your opinions on? Subject has focusing is not just a problem in education. But in memory aspects of everything, of course, I don't know your son, whoever it was, so I can't say that, you know, your son is your son and you'll know better, but my guess is that if he wants to focus on something, he's going to focus on it. And I bet that if you think about it, that there are things he focuses on like video games and, you know, maybe things that you don't really want him focused on Speaker 1: so older [00:44:06] children's teenage now and young adult friends talk about Out and they talked about it with a great deal of hostility if they were medicated when they were young and they're very resentful that it was done to them. And I know quite a few young men in their early 20s to whom this, they were medicated in and out of school. Mostly at most of them were in school. And then that's why I know them as because eventually, they were just taken out of school and home schooled. And it's very interesting to me that their attitude towards [00:44:36] it is very, very resentful. So that's something else to consider. Is not not just medicating to make them be able to focus on things, you want them to focus on or have better memories or whatever, but also the other implications the other messages that they're getting because of that. And maybe, you know, if you're interested in talking to some young men Speaker 3: who did Speaker 1: have supposedly, all these different things, ADHD dbca, kind of know that to hear to talk to them directly. You can do that. If you come ever to California [00:45:06] to the Sacramento conference, they have young adult panel. Well, and they're usually about 15 or 20, young adults on that panel and people get a chance to talk to them. And they're I don't know if the ones who are medicated and think it was great. Just don't talk. But the only I always hear from these young men who complain about the fact that people didn't like them the way they were and that they will always talk about the situation. The circumstances they were in as being having been the problem and that people didn't just you know, understand how they needed to how they needed to live and didn't support them. [00:45:36] And they're Speaker 3: very resentful that they got. Faded. But the fine good diet is being recommended as a wonderful Speaker 1: alternative to medication. And this is again Speaker 3: something that I've heard over and over and over and over again from people that it's a big pain, but it's really well worth it. Find gold.com find Gold Dot org FEI, NGO LD Speaker 1: dot-org. It's really important to saying to really use their diet. Not try to just wing it on your own because it's hard to know exactly what's in things that you buy. [00:46:06] Even though. It's on the label that what goes on the label is not Necessarily the full information of what might be in that product and it's important to use the, the real diet, and go to the website and learn about it, get the book. Okay. So there's a good recommendation, practical one. I wouldn't say never Medicaid child because I don't know that child now know that situation, but I would not myself unless it was that you tried a dozen other things for quite a while and one thing you can't help but try as they get older and [00:46:36] Pam. And I left yesterday for at one point because we thought, if we We're going to say this thing which is you know, some some we each had a very difficult young child who is in difficult anymore, but that doesn't help when your kid is 6 for somebody with a 17 or 18 year old to say or 6:15. It seventy-year-old to say well, you know, just, you know, call me in 10 years. Yeah, take an aspirin call me 10 years because you need something to do today. But but things do change and I think as diet goes my [00:47:06] I know that I thought it was just my oldest. Youngest. But Marty figured out that some some problems. He was having with waking up in a panic happened when he didn't eat protein. So we really have concentrated on making protein easily available because Caribbean Holly get cranky headaches Ida to Keith. Doesn't Keith, can go on carbs for a week and be just as happy as you ever was and Marty didn't seem to have those other symptoms, but he would wake up. Sometimes in a panic. He was a sleepwalker when he was a little kid and he would and, and he figured out on his own by trying to figure out what the similarities [00:47:36] were in those days. He hadn't eaten for a while before I went to sleep, and, or he had Deaton chips or potatoes, or what? You know, some bread. And another thing I think is just environment in general. Some kids are just too crowded there. Exit. Their intraverted kids who are being kept in activity, activity, activity expectation, and they really needed to get still. And so, their response to not being still enough is to spin out even more and, and they may just need a dark darker place by themselves to do something quiet, and sometimes first aid, [00:48:06] you know a moment of breathing or Focus can calm down. What would have been an hour of spinning out beyond their own control? And I know it won't work with it with every kid but it's worth trying just for me. I had a really bad headache this morning and you know, I took I took pills but I also went away, went to the bathroom. Walked in a halt by myself and breathe because if I hadn't, if I had kept talking, kept looking at people kept, you know, I kept thinking I have a headache. I have a headache. I have a killer headache now. [00:48:36] But teaching kids, those tricks. It's like they don't need an hour of meditation. In a garden with a fountain. They just might need, you know, 30 seconds to walk to the car the long way and the shade where you're saying, it'll be okay. Breathe. And I realize it's not going to cure all problems, but don't don't, don't get drugs or you know, going extreme diets without trying some smaller less invasive. More peaceful things too. Easy step. And that can lead into books homework [00:49:06] first. Almost every time that someone asks this question and I actually talked to the individual, I find out their child is pretty young and that I think personally their expectations are actually just too high. And you know, to be honest, I don't expect my twelve-year-old to focus very much on something that I think is important. She'll be fine because I've got two other older ones, so I have lots of confidence. I know that but if you're talking about a six or seven or eight or nine or ten or eleven [00:49:36] or twelve year old boy, But my best advice is for you to relax and focus more and more as you're saying focus on their strengths and enjoy them. And that read about Child Development, read the hurried Child by David elkind, read, Mis-Education by David elkind, read the book of learning and forgetting by Frank Smith and read anything else about child development and maybe you'll feel a little more comfortable that [00:50:06] not being able to focus 4. Speaker 3: Then Speaker 1: a couple of minutes at a time on something is totally fine. It's really okay. I'm not that good at focusing on something for a long period of time either. So, you know, I don't know if anybody else has noticed, I've tried to be settled but, you know, I absolutely cannot sit through a talk. So I always sit on the edge and in the back and I get up and wander around and come back and I'm okay. I've been successful and I just can't, I can't sit for an hour and a half talk. I [00:50:36] can barely sit through my own hour and a half. Talk and I teach college and I break my lectures up in two minutes. Sometimes, you know, I do two or three minute description of something and then I do something else and I have kids moving around, there's a college students because I know that there are people in that room that can't said, I teach three hour long classes and I know there are people that can't possibly focus more than 10 or 15 minutes at a time and still be functioning. Like they're adults. They can make themselves, stay in the seat, but they can't make their brains pay attention. So I think it's [00:51:06] anything to worry about it's just it truly. Just a difference and two different from what's expected in school. But who cares? I agree. And she confessed before I could, when we were sitting at the park. I love the stories and I liked watching the kids and that was almost enough input for me. And I started to pull weeds and then I thought this is not even my town. You know, I don't even I'm not sure this is a we but if I'd been in Albuquerque, I just cleaned up all the ground I can reach because I can't help. But, you know, it's rude to jump up and walk around while somebody's telling the story. But, you know, it's they don't [00:51:36] so much mind. If you're pulling weeds and I think reading Howard Gardner's I already recommended this, but frame, Mind will probably help you to because just because your kid can't focus on one thing. Remember, one thing doesn't mean he's not totally focusing in Remembering on something else. The first time we stayed in a hotel, not the first time at Pam, but another time we went to conference in Sacramento and I didn't know my room number. I knew what it looked like by a plant in a chair and and Pam couldn't believe that. I really can't remember my room number, but I couldn't and I tried to charge my breakfast to her accidentally Saturday, [00:52:07] but she caught me, you know, it wasn't it wasn't personally wasn't mean. Just you know, what's the difference in 1616? I was lucky. Remember the six part if I was proud of myself, so I think you can, you can even you can get grown and not have the ability to remember, the lyrics to songs, and nobody seems to care. But when you can't remember your phone number, they start to suspect you. So try to go easy on your own child to, because I bet they do have strengths, and I bet they do have things are focusing on it, just wasn't on your top 10 list so that it's easier to change your list to match what they're doing [00:52:37] and change what they're doing. And as two other books books, what are books that we believe to be helpful reads for getting the underlying? Of unschooling last weekend. I got to spend time with Thomas Armstrong because he was one of our Keynotes. At the Sacramento conference Thomas Armstrong has taken Howard Gardner's work and has done a lot of sort of rewriting into a more laypersons language and he has a book out called the myth of the ADD child. And so, whoever is interested in this particular topic, I would definitely [00:53:07] need Thomas Armstrong's book and there's another one that's got the word genius and the title. I blank. Doubt, I spent time. Looking at it. Awakening your child's natural genius. Okay, and that's another one that he does talk about, you know, all kinds of labeled children. And I think you'd be very, very, very encouraged by reading the especially the myth of the ADD child. I think you just find him to be fascinating again. He was one [00:53:38] so he knows what he's talking about. And I think he'd really you would calm down by making the parents need medication. They can stay calm while their kids. Do all these wonderful things. They'll be ok, they will focus eventually they'll focus on those creative ideas and they'll carry through on some. I know you're worried that they'll have all these brilliant ideas and never carry through on anything. But, you know, it's okay. They're not, it's even okay. If they're 18, I'll be fine. Okay, books. Well, I think I think the Linda Dobson book of the homeschool book of answers is fun because it's not the [00:54:08] same person because if you start reading a book by one person who wrote 180 pages and you don't like them, you're going to either quit or you're not going to like them for 180 pages, but that books by so many different people. One being mean. Mean that it can't, it can't get that awful. You can skip all the parts about me or you can read them all. But but it's neat because it's different answers to the same questions. And so for in-laws and or people who are who are nervous. It's a good book and not very sneakily, but it's very unschooling leaning book. The homeschool book of answers, right? Melinda [00:54:38] coughs, Linda Dobson, edited that and it's got a question and then six or eight answers and some photos and some quotes and it's it's a painless book. I'll Because I don't Focus very well. I like books like that with boxes and questions and answers and chopped up. It's easier for me, than reading Harry Potter, which is like some toast. Then the other question was has in philosophy. Affected your direction, for me. Yes, but I and I don't need to read any particular. One of the prizes I have for my that's not educational is [00:55:08] a Zen mind, beginner's mind. I think or something, you know, so I just a couple is in books and if I think it helps just because it's, it's so calm down, you know, it's not nothing to the end of the world and not some other religions, a lot of things are the imminent end of the world. And it's that's just a new idea for Farmer Baptist kids. The couple of the types. I have our man, Richard. And those both have an underlying not a blatant, you know, Buddhist philosophy. Although Richard focuses his life there a lot, but there, [00:55:38] but I think there is an undertone of that on both to question on to question and peaceful parenting and I so for that I would say any any book or website that has short things that you can remember. And also short ideas that you can write down, stick your mirror carry around in your pocket wouldn't hurt. Is there somebody has a specific book. Question need like something for your relatives, to, to read the Mary group of stuff is good. The unschooling handbook, but [00:56:08] oh, Valerie and process. Child galleries, which is right back there. You can get that here and take it with you. So a few minutes ago I said I kind of stopped and I said, so just stop worrying and be fully present with your child and that I realized when she mentioned Richards name was the title of one of Richard's talks. So obviously I have been influenced by it without even realizing it. That's a very Zen Buddhist kind of thing to say. I'm not a Zen Buddhist of any by any means. But yeah, I just said that. So [00:56:38] there's that influence a book that I would recommend really highly would be the fundamentals of homeschooling sounds awful. It's not, it's wonderful. It's all about playing conversation and, and being fully present with your child's. And it's by an Larson Fisher. And the subtitle is notes on successful, family, living the other book that I would really highly recommend is Frank. Smith's the book of learning and forgetting and another one that again is not a, not [00:57:08] a homeschooling book that I would highly recommend is just blanked on, in one of us. Okay. Well, I'll tell you the other. Has first and come back. Linda, Linda Dobson. And a book by I talked about math yesterday and this is really about unschooling math. And it's math Power by Patricia can shaft [00:57:39] Kem scha ft. We're done. Thank you very much, and we'll be around rest of the afternoon as want to talk to us.