Normal
Julie Bogart
One thing I notice in homeschooling circles is the tendency to evaluate kids based on the
"extraordinary." We want proof or something that we are exceeding expectations rather
than just living.
I also notice a tendency of adults to want kids to do exceptional work, hobbies and
personal activities as a way of validating that we have "great kids." I'm wondering, though,
if the real truth is that most people don't achieve notable stuff. They are mostly working to
have a life that is financially independent (they can support themselves and not rely on
parents otr the government) and they have hobbies or activities they enjoy on the side.
Why are we so bent on achieving "greatness" and most of us just aren't going to?
Why do we "hound" our kids to do more than they do?
I see this in school kids often. Parents aren't content that the kids are going to school and
in after school sports. How do they spend their free time? Are they doing anything else
important? Or personal?
I'm pretty tired of it. I feel like we e3xpect so much of kids and rarely appreciate them just
as they are.
Julie B
"extraordinary." We want proof or something that we are exceeding expectations rather
than just living.
I also notice a tendency of adults to want kids to do exceptional work, hobbies and
personal activities as a way of validating that we have "great kids." I'm wondering, though,
if the real truth is that most people don't achieve notable stuff. They are mostly working to
have a life that is financially independent (they can support themselves and not rely on
parents otr the government) and they have hobbies or activities they enjoy on the side.
Why are we so bent on achieving "greatness" and most of us just aren't going to?
Why do we "hound" our kids to do more than they do?
I see this in school kids often. Parents aren't content that the kids are going to school and
in after school sports. How do they spend their free time? Are they doing anything else
important? Or personal?
I'm pretty tired of it. I feel like we e3xpect so much of kids and rarely appreciate them just
as they are.
Julie B
pam sorooshian
On Sep 25, 2004, at 12:02 PM, Julie Bogart wrote:
do, when they are following their own passions, AS greatness for them.
But I don't see us pushing them to be notable achievers.
But it just happens that kids given time and support to follow their
passions do often seem to BE notable achievers in the sense that they
have the time to DO things when they are young, while most other kids
are busy with the inanities that school imposes on them.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Why are we so bent on achieving "greatness" and most of us just aren'tI don't see this in unschooling parents. I see that we SEE what they
> going to?
>
> Why do we "hound" our kids to do more than they do?
do, when they are following their own passions, AS greatness for them.
But I don't see us pushing them to be notable achievers.
But it just happens that kids given time and support to follow their
passions do often seem to BE notable achievers in the sense that they
have the time to DO things when they are young, while most other kids
are busy with the inanities that school imposes on them.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Elizabeth Hill
** I also notice a tendency of adults to want kids to do exceptional
work, hobbies and
personal activities as a way of validating that we have "great kids."
I'm wondering, though,
if the real truth is that most people don't achieve notable stuff.**
This is a really interesting idea to explore.
Years past I've seen sportscasters interviewing cross-country ski racers
from the U.S. and their approach is "Aren't you disappointed to come in
17th?" when the skier, who might be the first person from the U.S. ever
to compete in this event says "No, I'm just so thrilled to be at the
Olympics, but then the interviewere acts disbelieving.
Our culture is set up strangely where only the one person who gets the
gold medal is entitled to be briefly happy and everyone else is expected
to be disappointed. Yuck. Those are terrible odds.
** Why are we so bent on achieving "greatness" and most of us just
aren't going to?**
Maybe the best way to have "wonderful" kids is to expand our own sense
of "wonder".
Probably we need to erase our Win-Lose mental patterns and replace them
with alternative visions that don't require one person to "lose" in
order for another to feel a sense of accomplishment. Focusing on the
ideas of self-improvement and doing one's personal best are a part of
this change. But there are probably more profound possible changes that
I can't see.
The biological drives that tell us that we would die for our children
are possibly the reason that we feel in our guts that our children are
"exceptional". And maybe some people want external validation for that?
** I see this in school kids often. Parents aren't content that the kids
are going to school and
in after school sports. How do they spend their free time? Are they
doing anything else
important? Or personal?**
Are they driven by a desire to get their children into Harvard or other
competitive colleges, maybe?
Betsy
work, hobbies and
personal activities as a way of validating that we have "great kids."
I'm wondering, though,
if the real truth is that most people don't achieve notable stuff.**
This is a really interesting idea to explore.
Years past I've seen sportscasters interviewing cross-country ski racers
from the U.S. and their approach is "Aren't you disappointed to come in
17th?" when the skier, who might be the first person from the U.S. ever
to compete in this event says "No, I'm just so thrilled to be at the
Olympics, but then the interviewere acts disbelieving.
Our culture is set up strangely where only the one person who gets the
gold medal is entitled to be briefly happy and everyone else is expected
to be disappointed. Yuck. Those are terrible odds.
** Why are we so bent on achieving "greatness" and most of us just
aren't going to?**
Maybe the best way to have "wonderful" kids is to expand our own sense
of "wonder".
Probably we need to erase our Win-Lose mental patterns and replace them
with alternative visions that don't require one person to "lose" in
order for another to feel a sense of accomplishment. Focusing on the
ideas of self-improvement and doing one's personal best are a part of
this change. But there are probably more profound possible changes that
I can't see.
The biological drives that tell us that we would die for our children
are possibly the reason that we feel in our guts that our children are
"exceptional". And maybe some people want external validation for that?
** I see this in school kids often. Parents aren't content that the kids
are going to school and
in after school sports. How do they spend their free time? Are they
doing anything else
important? Or personal?**
Are they driven by a desire to get their children into Harvard or other
competitive colleges, maybe?
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/25/2004 1:02:59 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:
-=-Why are we so bent on achieving "greatness" and most of us just aren't
going to?-=-
Competitive spirit normal in humans?
-=-Why do we "hound" our kids to do more than they do?-=-
I don't personally but I do see it around me. Not much among unschoolers,
I'm glad to say.
I don't remember if I listed it on this list, but there's an article in the
current issues of Live Free, Learn Free on Kirby being 18 and not in college.
They said it was okay to put it online even though the issue's current.
http:/sandradodd.com/teen/kirby
Tammy Cardwell, who lives (in online terms) at
http://www.eho.org/
Eclectic Homeschool Online
is working on a book about "success" in homeschooled teens, with the intent
of showing that that definition changes with the experience of homeschooling.
It won't be about unschoolers in general, but there should be a few in there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
-=-Why are we so bent on achieving "greatness" and most of us just aren't
going to?-=-
Competitive spirit normal in humans?
-=-Why do we "hound" our kids to do more than they do?-=-
I don't personally but I do see it around me. Not much among unschoolers,
I'm glad to say.
I don't remember if I listed it on this list, but there's an article in the
current issues of Live Free, Learn Free on Kirby being 18 and not in college.
They said it was okay to put it online even though the issue's current.
http:/sandradodd.com/teen/kirby
Tammy Cardwell, who lives (in online terms) at
http://www.eho.org/
Eclectic Homeschool Online
is working on a book about "success" in homeschooled teens, with the intent
of showing that that definition changes with the experience of homeschooling.
It won't be about unschoolers in general, but there should be a few in there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Sep 25, 2004, at 2:44 PM, TreeGoddess wrote:
that age, would never have gone for an overnighter - not until much
much older - closer to 10 or 11 years old - also started college at 13
or 14 years old and are just fine.
-pam
<www.unschooling.info>
Life is Learning; Learning is Life
> "OK, but is he goingAMAZING, huh? My "coddled" kids - who were still SLEEPing with us at
> to grow out of this by then?" Hello?!?! He's FIVE! Even if she's
> thinking in school terms he'd have just started kindergarten a few
> weeks ago. She's concerned that I'm 'coddling him' (by listening to
> his wants/needs) and thus he won't be ready for college in about 13
> more years.
> Sheesh!
that age, would never have gone for an overnighter - not until much
much older - closer to 10 or 11 years old - also started college at 13
or 14 years old and are just fine.
-pam
<www.unschooling.info>
Life is Learning; Learning is Life
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/25/2004 7:43:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Even if she's
thinking in school terms he'd have just started kindergarten a few
weeks ago. She's concerned that I'm 'coddling him' (by listening to
his wants/needs) and thus he won't be ready for college in about 13
more years.
Sheesh!
*******************
I was at a Debate Club that a bunch of homeschooled families put together a
few years ago. Julian loved it. It wasn't rigid or anything, and the kids had
a blast.
We were at the library where it took place, and Julian was helping to set up
the heavy tables. For some reason he'd taken off his shoes. Well, the table
fell on his foot, and he was almost crying.
One of the moms (an UNSCHOOLING mom, yet!!!) sighed, and mentioned that she
didn't tend to coddle her kids, especially if they were upset by something
that was their own fault, anyway.
I responded with something like, "Oh, we always coddle him when he's upset
or gets hurt. I guess that's just us!" She rolled her eyes, I took care of my
boy.
I still coddle him, even when he's not upset. I like to. And he often
coddles other people. I'm definitely pro-coddling.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
Even if she's
thinking in school terms he'd have just started kindergarten a few
weeks ago. She's concerned that I'm 'coddling him' (by listening to
his wants/needs) and thus he won't be ready for college in about 13
more years.
Sheesh!
*******************
I was at a Debate Club that a bunch of homeschooled families put together a
few years ago. Julian loved it. It wasn't rigid or anything, and the kids had
a blast.
We were at the library where it took place, and Julian was helping to set up
the heavy tables. For some reason he'd taken off his shoes. Well, the table
fell on his foot, and he was almost crying.
One of the moms (an UNSCHOOLING mom, yet!!!) sighed, and mentioned that she
didn't tend to coddle her kids, especially if they were upset by something
that was their own fault, anyway.
I responded with something like, "Oh, we always coddle him when he's upset
or gets hurt. I guess that's just us!" She rolled her eyes, I took care of my
boy.
I still coddle him, even when he's not upset. I like to. And he often
coddles other people. I'm definitely pro-coddling.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Sep 25, 2004, at 6:35 PM, KathrynJB@... wrote:
(Although I'm thinking maybe there is some debate about whether
coddling eggs is a good idea, too?) <G>
-pam
Want MORE unschooling discussion?
<www.unschooling.info/forum>
Life is Learning; Learning is Life
> I still coddle him, even when he's not upset. I like to. And he oftenHey - if it is good enough for eggs, why not for our children.
> coddles other people. I'm definitely pro-coddling.
>
(Although I'm thinking maybe there is some debate about whether
coddling eggs is a good idea, too?) <G>
-pam
Want MORE unschooling discussion?
<www.unschooling.info/forum>
Life is Learning; Learning is Life
Penne & Buddies
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
this year, too, and has been fielding the inevitable questions. We
naively thought that there might be a break from explaining herself
once she "arrived," but now she's catching it right and left for not
having a specific *plan* for this part of her life. Gotta go check
out EHO -- is that where the grown unschooling crowd is hanging
out? Nike's looking for an active forum of like-minded souls --
it's been six years or so since she's been in the online loop.
TTYL ~ Penne (who survived Jeanne and actually saw the sun come out
this morning... this isn't the norm for Florida, either. Gotta buy
more stakes; wild weather took out three trees this time around! :oP)
> In a message dated 9/25/2004 1:02:59 PM Mountain Daylight Time,aren't
> julie@b... writes:
>
> -=-Why are we so bent on achieving "greatness" and most of us just
> going to?-=-unschoolers,
>
>
> Competitive spirit normal in humans?
>
> -=-Why do we "hound" our kids to do more than they do?-=-
>
> I don't personally but I do see it around me. Not much among
> I'm glad to say.article in the
>
> I don't remember if I listed it on this list, but there's an
> current issues of Live Free, Learn Free on Kirby being 18 and notin college.
> They said it was okay to put it online even though the issue'scurrent.
>Thanks for the link to your article, Sandra ~ Nike turned eighteen
> http:/sandradodd.com/teen/kirby
this year, too, and has been fielding the inevitable questions. We
naively thought that there might be a break from explaining herself
once she "arrived," but now she's catching it right and left for not
having a specific *plan* for this part of her life. Gotta go check
out EHO -- is that where the grown unschooling crowd is hanging
out? Nike's looking for an active forum of like-minded souls --
it's been six years or so since she's been in the online loop.
TTYL ~ Penne (who survived Jeanne and actually saw the sun come out
this morning... this isn't the norm for Florida, either. Gotta buy
more stakes; wild weather took out three trees this time around! :oP)
>the intent
> Tammy Cardwell, who lives (in online terms) at
> http://www.eho.org/
> Eclectic Homeschool Online
> is working on a book about "success" in homeschooled teens, with
> of showing that that definition changes with the experience ofhomeschooling.
> It won't be about unschoolers in general, but there should be afew in there.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Sep 27, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Penne & Buddies wrote:
<http://community.nbtsc.org/>
Lots of grown and almost-grown unschoolers there - tell her look at
"wiki."
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Gotta go checkMaybe she'd be interested in the Not-Back-to-School-Camp community?
> out EHO -- is that where the grown unschooling crowd is hanging
> out? Nike's looking for an active forum of like-minded souls --
> it's been six years or so since she's been in the online loop.
<http://community.nbtsc.org/>
Lots of grown and almost-grown unschoolers there - tell her look at
"wiki."
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
My oldest (now 20) didn't go to college. I have offered to help her get in,
get the paperwork rolling, buy books she thinks she needs, search for
scholarships, etc, but at this time she has no interest. I'm so glad that she
KNOWS she doesn't want to go!
She works at a family owned Mexican Restaurant, makes REALLY good money and
loves everyone she works with, including her boss. She now speaks fluent
Spanish. Her boss (a single mom) just bought a beautiful old funeral home and
is fixing it up, and Mandy loves to help her out. Most of them spend their
time off together, and the owners close the restaurant many times a year for
holidays, and throw parties for the employees. She is really, truly happy
and has no desire to move up to "bigger and better" things. I wish I was so
sure of myself at her age!
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
get the paperwork rolling, buy books she thinks she needs, search for
scholarships, etc, but at this time she has no interest. I'm so glad that she
KNOWS she doesn't want to go!
She works at a family owned Mexican Restaurant, makes REALLY good money and
loves everyone she works with, including her boss. She now speaks fluent
Spanish. Her boss (a single mom) just bought a beautiful old funeral home and
is fixing it up, and Mandy loves to help her out. Most of them spend their
time off together, and the owners close the restaurant many times a year for
holidays, and throw parties for the employees. She is really, truly happy
and has no desire to move up to "bigger and better" things. I wish I was so
sure of myself at her age!
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/25/2004 5:45:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
spending the night, too. First off, I don't blame Wyl for not wanting to go, since
Grandma and Grandaddy have an enormous amount of (seemingly pointless) rules.
Plus, he adores his family and loves spending time with us-how many public
school parents would give their eyeteeth for one day a month of that?! But, the
last time it came up (phone conversation), my mother told me that we shouldn't
allow him to change his mind. (One time, he agreed to spend the night about a
week before the "date", and then, a few days beforehand, he decided he really
didn't want to, after all) She told me we were teaching him to "manipulate"
Dave and I, and teaching him to play "mind games"!!! Like she (or anyone else
for that matter!!)'s never changed her mind about anything!! He's almost 5 1/2,
for crying out loud-he hasn't a concept of mind games-well... that may have
less to do with age than with never having been shown the example of it, but
nonetheless... I just don't know what to do with my parents (especially my
mother) sometimes... it seems the more we "let go" of our ridgidness, the more
controlling she becomes. She even had the gall to complain to me that I was
"undermining her authority" (over catsup, for crying out loud!!) one day when we were
over there... well, even if "authority" were important to me-its not HER
authority that Wyl should be attuned to-it would be the parent's authority...
Ugh... That's a whole other story I wont' get into, now...
At any rate, you have my empathy-and I'm right there with you in your
perplexity on this kind of stuff... :~)
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
treegoddess@... writes:
> What's the rush? Why can't she just accept that he's young and doesn'tUgh. I know just what you're saying. My mother is giving me grief about
> want to spend the night at *anyone's* house yet?
spending the night, too. First off, I don't blame Wyl for not wanting to go, since
Grandma and Grandaddy have an enormous amount of (seemingly pointless) rules.
Plus, he adores his family and loves spending time with us-how many public
school parents would give their eyeteeth for one day a month of that?! But, the
last time it came up (phone conversation), my mother told me that we shouldn't
allow him to change his mind. (One time, he agreed to spend the night about a
week before the "date", and then, a few days beforehand, he decided he really
didn't want to, after all) She told me we were teaching him to "manipulate"
Dave and I, and teaching him to play "mind games"!!! Like she (or anyone else
for that matter!!)'s never changed her mind about anything!! He's almost 5 1/2,
for crying out loud-he hasn't a concept of mind games-well... that may have
less to do with age than with never having been shown the example of it, but
nonetheless... I just don't know what to do with my parents (especially my
mother) sometimes... it seems the more we "let go" of our ridgidness, the more
controlling she becomes. She even had the gall to complain to me that I was
"undermining her authority" (over catsup, for crying out loud!!) one day when we were
over there... well, even if "authority" were important to me-its not HER
authority that Wyl should be attuned to-it would be the parent's authority...
Ugh... That's a whole other story I wont' get into, now...
At any rate, you have my empathy-and I'm right there with you in your
perplexity on this kind of stuff... :~)
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
On Sep 29, 2004, at 2:34 AM, Sanguinegirl83@... wrote:
pretend it's Cartman on his tricked out police Big Wheel yelling, "You
WILL respect my o-thor-o-TAY!" LOL
Hmmm, yeah, 'undermining her authority" eh? That's so absurd a thing
to say at all, but to a grown woman with a son of her own? You could
always pack up and leave -- or bring your own condiments next time. ;)
My step-dad doesn't at all get how we parent, but he usually doesn't
say anything about it to me. However, we were over one time and there
was a package of crackers laying on the coffee table. My DS (maybe 4
at the time) had already asked my mom for a snack and she gave him some
of those crackers. I don't remember who laid them on the table (but is
was not my SD). Anyway, DS was done and wanted more crackers so he
started to take a few more out of the package and my SD said to him
"Hey! Who said? You didn't ask." Huh? I said that he doesn't need
to *ask* to eat and that my mom had already given him some of those.
SD then said to my DS, "What do you say? You can't have any more
unless you say 'please'." I told him no he doesn't *have* to say
please and that he was going to eat the damn crackers without begging
for them. Ooooh, that really burned me. Poor DS was so confused as to
why his Papa wouldn't just let him have some more crackers. ::sigh::
-Tracy-
> [...it seems the more we "let go" of our ridgidness, the moreAre our mother's related? ;)
> controlling she becomes.]
> [She even had the gall to complain to me that I was "undermining her"Authority"?!?!? Ewwwww. Although if she says it again you can
> authority" (over catsup, for crying out loud!!) one day when we were
> over there... well, even if "authority" were important to me-its not
> HER
> authority that Wyl should be attuned to.... ]
pretend it's Cartman on his tricked out police Big Wheel yelling, "You
WILL respect my o-thor-o-TAY!" LOL
Hmmm, yeah, 'undermining her authority" eh? That's so absurd a thing
to say at all, but to a grown woman with a son of her own? You could
always pack up and leave -- or bring your own condiments next time. ;)
My step-dad doesn't at all get how we parent, but he usually doesn't
say anything about it to me. However, we were over one time and there
was a package of crackers laying on the coffee table. My DS (maybe 4
at the time) had already asked my mom for a snack and she gave him some
of those crackers. I don't remember who laid them on the table (but is
was not my SD). Anyway, DS was done and wanted more crackers so he
started to take a few more out of the package and my SD said to him
"Hey! Who said? You didn't ask." Huh? I said that he doesn't need
to *ask* to eat and that my mom had already given him some of those.
SD then said to my DS, "What do you say? You can't have any more
unless you say 'please'." I told him no he doesn't *have* to say
please and that he was going to eat the damn crackers without begging
for them. Ooooh, that really burned me. Poor DS was so confused as to
why his Papa wouldn't just let him have some more crackers. ::sigh::
-Tracy-
emma bovary
Tracy ,
I totally relate to your story about your stepdad. I have to deal with the same thing with my in laws as well as my mother. Thanksgiving was a disaster last year for my oldest who was also four. The in laws were on his case for everything. I really like the part when they leave breakables out and then get mad at the kids for wanting to play with them. My mother is constantly trying to correct the behavior in my kids that she thinks needs work. It's almost like they all can't stand the way my husband and I parent and they all have the attitude that as long as the kids are under their roof, they will act the way the in laws and mother want them to.
I've basically reached the conclusion that everyone is a critic when it's not their child and they don't live your life all day. Some of my childless friends are even critics. "When we have kids, we're not going to let them to that" is their mantra. I feel like saying, you haven't even been up all night with a newborn yet, shut up! LOL
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I totally relate to your story about your stepdad. I have to deal with the same thing with my in laws as well as my mother. Thanksgiving was a disaster last year for my oldest who was also four. The in laws were on his case for everything. I really like the part when they leave breakables out and then get mad at the kids for wanting to play with them. My mother is constantly trying to correct the behavior in my kids that she thinks needs work. It's almost like they all can't stand the way my husband and I parent and they all have the attitude that as long as the kids are under their roof, they will act the way the in laws and mother want them to.
I've basically reached the conclusion that everyone is a critic when it's not their child and they don't live your life all day. Some of my childless friends are even critics. "When we have kids, we're not going to let them to that" is their mantra. I feel like saying, you haven't even been up all night with a newborn yet, shut up! LOL
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/29/04 6:10:04 AM, treegoddess@... writes:
<< "Authority"?!?!? Ewwwww. Although if she says it again you can
pretend it's Cartman on his tricked out police Big Wheel yelling, "You
WILL respect my o-thor-o-TAY!" LOL>>
Ah yes, I used to have that image and quote printed out and on the door to my
office. <g>
<<Hmmm, yeah, 'undermining her authority" eh? That's so absurd a thing
to say at all, but to a grown woman with a son of her own? You could
always pack up and leave -- or bring your own condiments next time. ;) >>
I'd tell her she has authority over her own decisions and her own ketchup but
not over my son.
Sandra
<< "Authority"?!?!? Ewwwww. Although if she says it again you can
pretend it's Cartman on his tricked out police Big Wheel yelling, "You
WILL respect my o-thor-o-TAY!" LOL>>
Ah yes, I used to have that image and quote printed out and on the door to my
office. <g>
<<Hmmm, yeah, 'undermining her authority" eh? That's so absurd a thing
to say at all, but to a grown woman with a son of her own? You could
always pack up and leave -- or bring your own condiments next time. ;) >>
I'd tell her she has authority over her own decisions and her own ketchup but
not over my son.
Sandra
Penne & Buddies
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
Nike's been all over the NBTS communities, but if I recall
correctly, Wiki was kind of a mystery compared to the typical forum
set-up. I'll suggest she go over and look at it again. No UD-type
BB for the grown kids here at Yahoo! or elsewhere? It's such an
encouragement to hear about Kirby and Mandy's pursuits sans
the "higher" academic scene.
It's nothing short of amazing to learn that my sixteen years of
studying Spanish by the book in school could've been more profitably
and enjoyably spent working in a good Mexican restaurant! LOL You
know, we actually suggested that idea to our older kids years ago
when we frequented a local Chinese restaurant and became friends
with the owner. She brought over her parents from the homeland to
help her out with the business while her husband studied at the
nearby university and they were also conversing with us (as our
friend translated) at the table.
I've been trying for years to help my oldest stepson shed his public
school ideals of "success" and focus on what he loves best. I
noticed the similarities between his interests, not to mention his
appearance, and Kirby's when they were younger. Brandon wore his
dark brown hair long when he was seventeen, too. He didn't have
near enough time to deschool highschool before feeling pressured to
join the world of community college in order to please his parent
(s).
That didn't last very long, and this kid is still struggling to
figure out how to live the conventional life five years later. The
saddest part for me is that he's decided that the military is his
only option now. I asked him if he knew there was a war on... now I
know how my parents felt when my big brother volunteered for Vietnam
after dropping out of highschool. That was the beginning of a
downhill spiral for the next twenty years. Brandon also feels like
a failure, at school, at work, at family life, and we haven't been
able to convince him otherwise. Such a waste of good talent!
He sees anything that doesn't promise to make him big bucks as
nothing more than a hobby, and the army is making him all kinds of
promises I don't expect them to keep. Everyone in my family has
served in some branch of the military and not one of them came away
from it better for the experience. Only my husband gained a
marketable skill from the Navy, but the "free" training was not
worth the price he paid (six years of bondage to the sea and a
broken marriage, etc.)
Anway, I sent him a link to Sandra's latest article on Kirby now
that he's come of age -- I keep thinking something will hit home and
it will click for him sooner or later. Perhaps I should have
controlled my urge to tell Brandon to relax and enjoy life a little
when he was at that turning point and, like Kirby, he would have
naturally practiced what his mom wanted to preach without any
prompting. 'Tis a puzzlement... shall we dance? Talk about a
comfort movie ~ how 'bout "The King and I" :o) HAND-pda
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>at
> On Sep 27, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Penne & Buddies wrote:
>
> > Gotta go check
> > out EHO -- is that where the grown unschooling crowd is hanging
> > out? Nike's looking for an active forum of like-minded souls --
> > it's been six years or so since she's been in the online loop.
>
> Maybe she'd be interested in the Not-Back-to-School-Camp community?
> <http://community.nbtsc.org/>
>
> Lots of grown and almost-grown unschoolers there - tell her look
> "wiki."Thanks, Pam. Seems EHO wasn't quite what we were looking for...
>
> -pam
Nike's been all over the NBTS communities, but if I recall
correctly, Wiki was kind of a mystery compared to the typical forum
set-up. I'll suggest she go over and look at it again. No UD-type
BB for the grown kids here at Yahoo! or elsewhere? It's such an
encouragement to hear about Kirby and Mandy's pursuits sans
the "higher" academic scene.
It's nothing short of amazing to learn that my sixteen years of
studying Spanish by the book in school could've been more profitably
and enjoyably spent working in a good Mexican restaurant! LOL You
know, we actually suggested that idea to our older kids years ago
when we frequented a local Chinese restaurant and became friends
with the owner. She brought over her parents from the homeland to
help her out with the business while her husband studied at the
nearby university and they were also conversing with us (as our
friend translated) at the table.
I've been trying for years to help my oldest stepson shed his public
school ideals of "success" and focus on what he loves best. I
noticed the similarities between his interests, not to mention his
appearance, and Kirby's when they were younger. Brandon wore his
dark brown hair long when he was seventeen, too. He didn't have
near enough time to deschool highschool before feeling pressured to
join the world of community college in order to please his parent
(s).
That didn't last very long, and this kid is still struggling to
figure out how to live the conventional life five years later. The
saddest part for me is that he's decided that the military is his
only option now. I asked him if he knew there was a war on... now I
know how my parents felt when my big brother volunteered for Vietnam
after dropping out of highschool. That was the beginning of a
downhill spiral for the next twenty years. Brandon also feels like
a failure, at school, at work, at family life, and we haven't been
able to convince him otherwise. Such a waste of good talent!
He sees anything that doesn't promise to make him big bucks as
nothing more than a hobby, and the army is making him all kinds of
promises I don't expect them to keep. Everyone in my family has
served in some branch of the military and not one of them came away
from it better for the experience. Only my husband gained a
marketable skill from the Navy, but the "free" training was not
worth the price he paid (six years of bondage to the sea and a
broken marriage, etc.)
Anway, I sent him a link to Sandra's latest article on Kirby now
that he's come of age -- I keep thinking something will hit home and
it will click for him sooner or later. Perhaps I should have
controlled my urge to tell Brandon to relax and enjoy life a little
when he was at that turning point and, like Kirby, he would have
naturally practiced what his mom wanted to preach without any
prompting. 'Tis a puzzlement... shall we dance? Talk about a
comfort movie ~ how 'bout "The King and I" :o) HAND-pda
Penne & Buddies
--- In [email protected], "Penne & Buddies"
<crrbuddy@y...> wrote:
<snip>
http://connections.ardfamilyco-op.net/WDW1997cc.jpg
Brandon was sixteen that year and he was headed to Hawai'i to join
his mom at her new station in Pearl Harbor. She & his stepdad had
big plans to homeschool him and his two younger brothers while they
were on an adventure in Paradise. We had hooked 'em up with Earl
Gary while they were in Maine preparing for the trip the year prior,
and Brandon was quickly becoming disenchanted with the highschool
routine.
Unfortunately, all their big plans fell through not long after they
arrived on base. The younger kids got put back in school for some
reason and their dad went back to work while Brandon was left home
to fend for himself. They were trying to set up "school at home"
and Brandon was at a loss as to how to explain unschooling to them
(he'd only homeschooled with us for a year when he was about
twelve.)
Bud didn't have enough courage to defy their workbook mentality, nor
enough self-direction to find something interesting to do on the
islands while everyone was wasting their own opportunities 9-5 -- so
he came home after Christmas, hair much longer & down in the dumps
about his plight in life. Spent a few months hanging out, but he
was anxious to get out and DO something, but what?? Decided to cut
his hair and try flipping burgers and I bit my tongue, not because
it wasn't a "worthy" occupation, but because I knew he had no real
interest in it.
Soon moved on to cashiering at the local market, and I wished him
the best... then finally some older friends talked Brandon into a
program at the local community college that promised a "secure
future" -- red flag. He was determined to try the conventional
path, no matter what, and be a "success" in the *normal* sense of
the word. It ain't happened yet, and now he's back with his mom and
stepdad again trying to meet the weight requirements to join the fun
in Iraq. I'm guilty of sending *Häagen-Dazs* thoughts his way... so
shoot me!
<crrbuddy@y...> wrote:
<snip>
>public
> I've been trying for years to help my oldest stepson shed his
> school ideals of "success" and focus on what he loves best. IHere's a link to a photo of DH and Son from Disney in '97
> noticed the similarities between his interests, not to mention his
> appearance, and Kirby's when they were younger. Brandon wore his
> dark brown hair long when he was seventeen, too.
http://connections.ardfamilyco-op.net/WDW1997cc.jpg
Brandon was sixteen that year and he was headed to Hawai'i to join
his mom at her new station in Pearl Harbor. She & his stepdad had
big plans to homeschool him and his two younger brothers while they
were on an adventure in Paradise. We had hooked 'em up with Earl
Gary while they were in Maine preparing for the trip the year prior,
and Brandon was quickly becoming disenchanted with the highschool
routine.
Unfortunately, all their big plans fell through not long after they
arrived on base. The younger kids got put back in school for some
reason and their dad went back to work while Brandon was left home
to fend for himself. They were trying to set up "school at home"
and Brandon was at a loss as to how to explain unschooling to them
(he'd only homeschooled with us for a year when he was about
twelve.)
Bud didn't have enough courage to defy their workbook mentality, nor
enough self-direction to find something interesting to do on the
islands while everyone was wasting their own opportunities 9-5 -- so
he came home after Christmas, hair much longer & down in the dumps
about his plight in life. Spent a few months hanging out, but he
was anxious to get out and DO something, but what?? Decided to cut
his hair and try flipping burgers and I bit my tongue, not because
it wasn't a "worthy" occupation, but because I knew he had no real
interest in it.
Soon moved on to cashiering at the local market, and I wished him
the best... then finally some older friends talked Brandon into a
program at the local community college that promised a "secure
future" -- red flag. He was determined to try the conventional
path, no matter what, and be a "success" in the *normal* sense of
the word. It ain't happened yet, and now he's back with his mom and
stepdad again trying to meet the weight requirements to join the fun
in Iraq. I'm guilty of sending *Häagen-Dazs* thoughts his way... so
shoot me!
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/29/04 11:27:37 AM, crrbuddy@... writes:
<< The
saddest part for me is that he's decided that the military is his
only option now. >>
One of our 18 year old friends graduated from high school in May and is in
air force basic training in Texas right now.
Last night I learned that two others, a little older than he is, have joined
the army and the marines (the older one, who was in college on a track
scholarship, but didn't succeed there).
This is not to say that that's not a success, but in each of these particular
cases (two for sure and one I haven't talked to him for a few years) it seems
to be that they would rather just sign up with someone who would train and
pay them (and to gamble their hale bodies and their lives) than to be at home
with parents, or to mess with college.
-=- 'Tis a puzzlement... shall we dance? Talk about a
comfort movie ~ how 'bout "The King and I" :o)-=-
Sounds great. I have it on tape. Need a DVD... <g>
Sandra
<< The
saddest part for me is that he's decided that the military is his
only option now. >>
One of our 18 year old friends graduated from high school in May and is in
air force basic training in Texas right now.
Last night I learned that two others, a little older than he is, have joined
the army and the marines (the older one, who was in college on a track
scholarship, but didn't succeed there).
This is not to say that that's not a success, but in each of these particular
cases (two for sure and one I haven't talked to him for a few years) it seems
to be that they would rather just sign up with someone who would train and
pay them (and to gamble their hale bodies and their lives) than to be at home
with parents, or to mess with college.
-=- 'Tis a puzzlement... shall we dance? Talk about a
comfort movie ~ how 'bout "The King and I" :o)-=-
Sounds great. I have it on tape. Need a DVD... <g>
Sandra
velvet jiang
oh sweet revenge (in a nice way). my sil had no children and she was the
worst critic of how i raise my dd. the whole family pretty much thinks i'm
nuts but that is another story. anyway my sil had a baby 2 years ago and
everyone was yelling at her to do this don't do that etc. she was so
confused she didn't even want to hold the baby (so sad). when we were there
visiting i told her to stop listening to everyone else. just smile at them
and nod and then do whatever you want. i told her she is the mother and no
one would do a better job than her if she would just listen to herself. it
was the first real connection we had made in the 10 years of me marrying
into the family. well fast forward and she is standing up to the family left
and right. she does things her way and "spoils" her boy just like i think
she should.
bonus.. she never tries to tell me what i'm doing wrong now because she is
making the same mistakes.
velvet
worst critic of how i raise my dd. the whole family pretty much thinks i'm
nuts but that is another story. anyway my sil had a baby 2 years ago and
everyone was yelling at her to do this don't do that etc. she was so
confused she didn't even want to hold the baby (so sad). when we were there
visiting i told her to stop listening to everyone else. just smile at them
and nod and then do whatever you want. i told her she is the mother and no
one would do a better job than her if she would just listen to herself. it
was the first real connection we had made in the 10 years of me marrying
into the family. well fast forward and she is standing up to the family left
and right. she does things her way and "spoils" her boy just like i think
she should.
bonus.. she never tries to tell me what i'm doing wrong now because she is
making the same mistakes.
velvet
>From: emma bovary <e_bovary@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re:Normal
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 05:56:28 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Tracy ,
>
>I totally relate to your story about your stepdad. I have to deal with the
>same thing with my in laws as well as my mother. Thanksgiving was a
>disaster last year for my oldest who was also four. The in laws were on
>his case for everything. I really like the part when they leave breakables
>out and then get mad at the kids for wanting to play with them. My mother
>is constantly trying to correct the behavior in my kids that she thinks
>needs work. It's almost like they all can't stand the way my husband and I
>parent and they all have the attitude that as long as the kids are under
>their roof, they will act the way the in laws and mother want them to.
>
>I've basically reached the conclusion that everyone is a critic when it's
>not their child and they don't live your life all day. Some of my
>childless friends are even critics. "When we have kids, we're not going to
>let them to that" is their mantra. I feel like saying, you haven't even
>been up all night with a newborn yet, shut up! LOL
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Nisha
--- In [email protected], emma bovary
<e_bovary@y...> wrote:
Some of my childless friends are even critics. "When we have kids,
we're not going to let them to that" is their mantra. I feel like
saying, you haven't even been up all night with a newborn yet, shut
up! LOL
BEFORE I had kids too." That has worked really well, both times I've
felt I needed to use it.
Nisha
<e_bovary@y...> wrote:
Some of my childless friends are even critics. "When we have kids,
we're not going to let them to that" is their mantra. I feel like
saying, you haven't even been up all night with a newborn yet, shut
up! LOL
>I have actually used, "yeah, I gave out all my best parenting advice
BEFORE I had kids too." That has worked really well, both times I've
felt I needed to use it.
Nisha
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/29/2004 8:10:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
###> [She even had the gall to complain to me that I was "undermining her
WILL respect my o-thor-o-TAY!" LOL
Hmmm, yeah, 'undermining her authority" eh? That's so absurd a thing
to say at all, but to a grown woman with a son of her own? You could
always pack up and leave -- or bring your own condiments next time. ;)<<
Well, that's where it originated... He (being 5 years old) was pouring his
own catsup onto his plate and in my mother's opinion (and probaby my dad's,
too-but he wouldn't have made a fuss) he poured too much (maybe 2 heaping
tablespoons, max). She started in on how "if he couldn't pour a reasonable amount,
next time he couldn't pour his own catsup, that someone else would have to pour
it for him"-I was stunned! Its smooshed tomatoes, for crying out loud! $2 a
bottle on sale! So, I calmly and reasonably-toned, smiling gently, said, "Well,
how about if we buy you guys' next bottle of catsup?" She looked daggers at me
and got up and left the table! (Which is saying a lot for my mother, who likes
to clean the leavings from everyone else's plates when they're full)
So, after we finished, I went in to where she was to appologise for offending
her (I had no clue what the hell had offended her at the time), and explain
that I thought that's what her "manners/criteria" would demand in reparation of
the "waste" of catsup. That's when she blew her top at me (away from Wyl's
site and hearing) that I was undermining her authority with Wyl-especially when
I explained the differences in our ideals-catsup is just not that important to
me! Neither is $2!! She went into this long tirade on how sometime in the
future catsup might not be so "plentiful" and cheap, and then what would we do?!
Gee, I don't know-deal with it when and IF it ever happens? Cripes, he's not
stupid. Nor can I ever forsee catsup being that important to me. We usually
only use it at her house, once a week, anyhow.
After that sunk in, I had this almost uncontrolable urge to go buy the big
bottle of catsup, get a paperplate (at home) and joyfully empty the damn thing
onto the plate with gusto and joy!! I thought that might be a little spiteful,
and not sure what message it would send to Wyl, so I just relished that little
thought in my head for weeks! :~D
Now, she's feeling it necessary to tell me what it is we're "teaching" Wyl-or
what he's "learning"-example: when he agreed to spend the night at grandma
and grandad's house one night (my folks), and then, later in the week, changed
his mind. My mother is telling me we should "force him to stick to his original
decision", because by letting him change his mind, he's learning how to
"manipulate people"! Ummm... couldn't he be learning how to make the right decision
in the FIRST place? Learning to know his own mind? Yeah, like my mother has
never changed her mind in her life... Sorry, all-didn't mean to get off on a
rant-my mother just gets my dander up. And this is just the teeny-est tip of the
iceburg! Okay, going to go calm down, now... :~D
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
treegoddess@... writes:
> Are our mother's related? ;)Ooch. That's a scary thought!
###> [She even had the gall to complain to me that I was "undermining her
> authority" (over catsup, for crying out loud!!) one day when we werepretend it's Cartman on his tricked out police Big Wheel yelling, "You
> over there... well, even if "authority" were important to me-its not
> HER
> authority that Wyl should be attuned to.... ]###
>>"Authority"?!?!? Ewwwww. Although if she says it again you can
WILL respect my o-thor-o-TAY!" LOL
Hmmm, yeah, 'undermining her authority" eh? That's so absurd a thing
to say at all, but to a grown woman with a son of her own? You could
always pack up and leave -- or bring your own condiments next time. ;)<<
Well, that's where it originated... He (being 5 years old) was pouring his
own catsup onto his plate and in my mother's opinion (and probaby my dad's,
too-but he wouldn't have made a fuss) he poured too much (maybe 2 heaping
tablespoons, max). She started in on how "if he couldn't pour a reasonable amount,
next time he couldn't pour his own catsup, that someone else would have to pour
it for him"-I was stunned! Its smooshed tomatoes, for crying out loud! $2 a
bottle on sale! So, I calmly and reasonably-toned, smiling gently, said, "Well,
how about if we buy you guys' next bottle of catsup?" She looked daggers at me
and got up and left the table! (Which is saying a lot for my mother, who likes
to clean the leavings from everyone else's plates when they're full)
So, after we finished, I went in to where she was to appologise for offending
her (I had no clue what the hell had offended her at the time), and explain
that I thought that's what her "manners/criteria" would demand in reparation of
the "waste" of catsup. That's when she blew her top at me (away from Wyl's
site and hearing) that I was undermining her authority with Wyl-especially when
I explained the differences in our ideals-catsup is just not that important to
me! Neither is $2!! She went into this long tirade on how sometime in the
future catsup might not be so "plentiful" and cheap, and then what would we do?!
Gee, I don't know-deal with it when and IF it ever happens? Cripes, he's not
stupid. Nor can I ever forsee catsup being that important to me. We usually
only use it at her house, once a week, anyhow.
After that sunk in, I had this almost uncontrolable urge to go buy the big
bottle of catsup, get a paperplate (at home) and joyfully empty the damn thing
onto the plate with gusto and joy!! I thought that might be a little spiteful,
and not sure what message it would send to Wyl, so I just relished that little
thought in my head for weeks! :~D
Now, she's feeling it necessary to tell me what it is we're "teaching" Wyl-or
what he's "learning"-example: when he agreed to spend the night at grandma
and grandad's house one night (my folks), and then, later in the week, changed
his mind. My mother is telling me we should "force him to stick to his original
decision", because by letting him change his mind, he's learning how to
"manipulate people"! Ummm... couldn't he be learning how to make the right decision
in the FIRST place? Learning to know his own mind? Yeah, like my mother has
never changed her mind in her life... Sorry, all-didn't mean to get off on a
rant-my mother just gets my dander up. And this is just the teeny-est tip of the
iceburg! Okay, going to go calm down, now... :~D
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/29/2004 9:40:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
e_bovary@... writes:
because I knew I might actually change my mind. And boy, did I!! I've done pretty
much a 180 degree change in what my parenting ideas were B.C. (before child).
I thought not vaccinating was next to child abuse, control of your child was
paramount and homeschooling was an evil thing! LOL Good thing I never said any
of these things outloud-I'd be reaping "I told you so"s by the dozens! :~)
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
e_bovary@... writes:
> Some of my childless friends are even critics. "When we have kids, we'reI was like that, myself-though NEVER to someone-just in my head. Probably
> not going to let them to that" is their mantra.
because I knew I might actually change my mind. And boy, did I!! I've done pretty
much a 180 degree change in what my parenting ideas were B.C. (before child).
I thought not vaccinating was next to child abuse, control of your child was
paramount and homeschooling was an evil thing! LOL Good thing I never said any
of these things outloud-I'd be reaping "I told you so"s by the dozens! :~)
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/5/2004 12:03:35 AM Central Standard Time,
Sanguinegirl83@... writes:
She went into this long tirade on how sometime in the
future catsup might not be so "plentiful" and cheap, and then what would we
do?!
~~~
This just cracked me up!
So that got me to thinking...Assuming a 12 oz. bottle of ketchup, that
ketchup is going at $10 something a gallon! I'm paying $2 a GALLON for diesel for
my car.
Ketchup is ALREADY over priced. lol.
Karen, still laughing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sanguinegirl83@... writes:
She went into this long tirade on how sometime in the
future catsup might not be so "plentiful" and cheap, and then what would we
do?!
~~~
This just cracked me up!
So that got me to thinking...Assuming a 12 oz. bottle of ketchup, that
ketchup is going at $10 something a gallon! I'm paying $2 a GALLON for diesel for
my car.
Ketchup is ALREADY over priced. lol.
Karen, still laughing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], Sanguinegirl83@a...
wrote:
She went into this long tirade on how sometime in the
that they will learn what they need when they need it, but I just
can't deal with the thought that they might be unprepared for a
catsup crisis!!
Time to get out the catsup conservation worksheets!!
;-)
--aj, who promises she's getting a cup of coffee very soon
wrote:
She went into this long tirade on how sometime in the
> future catsup might not be so "plentiful" and cheap, and then whatwould we do?!
> Gee, I don't know-deal with it when and IF it ever happens?Well, that's it, no more unschooling for me. I mean, it's a nice idea
that they will learn what they need when they need it, but I just
can't deal with the thought that they might be unprepared for a
catsup crisis!!
Time to get out the catsup conservation worksheets!!
;-)
--aj, who promises she's getting a cup of coffee very soon
Robyn Coburn
<<<<She went into this long tirade on how sometime in the
future catsup might not be so "plentiful" and cheap, and then what would we
do?!
Gee, I don't know-deal with it when and IF it ever happens?>>>
Your mother is not thinking logically - does she realize how insane it
sounds to talk about future catsup supplies at all? The only reason this
topic of conversation could be remotely reasonable is if you worked in the
food supply industry. My mother is often illogical also - and was even
before her brain aneurism 2.5 years ago. Years past she used to be convinced
that the USSR was going to physically invade the USA at any moment and
literally have soldiers marching in to every town to "take over" running it.
I said to her, "do you realize what a huge logistical task it would be to
just take over the daily organization of 250 million unwilling victims?" She
just wasn't thinking it through.
<<<After that sunk in, I had this almost uncontrolable urge to go buy the
big bottle of catsup, get a paperplate (at home) and joyfully empty the damn
thing onto the plate with gusto and joy!! I thought that might be a little
spiteful, and not sure what message it would send to Wyl, so I just relished
that little thought in my head for weeks!>>>>
I think it sounds like a kind of fun art with foodstuffs game. Whipped cream
and puddings make fun squidgy playtoys too.
<<<<Now, she's feeling it necessary to tell me what it is we're "teaching"
Wyl-or what he's "learning"-example: when he agreed to spend the night at
grandma and grandad's house one night (my folks), and then, later in the
week, changed his mind. My mother is telling me we should "force him to
stick to his original decision", because by letting him change his mind,
he's learning how to "manipulate people"! Ummm... couldn't he be learning
how to make the right decision in the FIRST place? Learning to know his own
mind? Yeah, like my mother has never changed her mind in her life... Sorry,
all-didn't mean to get off on a rant-my mother just gets my dander up. And
this is just the teeny-est tip of the iceburg!>>>>
Jayn isn't very good at holding up her end of a deal yet either. I'm sure
she will be eventually. I expect disappointment was coloring your mother's
reaction in that case. I hope she doesn't see it as a lost opportunity to
get Wyl alone and fix some of the dangerous damage you are doing to him?
My mother is wrong (from my point of view) about how to handle almost
everything. She was wrong in her parenting when I was young, wrong (in the
sense of producing sadness and anger) in many of her dealings with my
stepfather, and she is usually wrong now on those occasions when she makes
her parenting/marriage ideas known. Her paradigm is that it is the wife and
mother's job to control, direct and "improve" the basic character of the
husband, child or any one else she may come into contact with. Then the
methods she chooses for that basically wrong endeavor are additionally just
plain ineffective and ...wrong.
When she starts critiquing on the phone, I end the conversation at once. I
only see her once a year. They usually come at Christmas; this year they
came in September for reasons of their own that are unclear to me (my dad
has a lot of leeway in when he schedules his annual 4 week vacation). I
suspect that they are trying to manipulate us into spending Christmas with
them. My dh won't travel at Christmas, he has an aversion to crowds at the
best of times. They know this. He would travel to visit prior to or
following the actual holidays instead. We make this offer every year, but
the date is magical to them.
My mother has become such a fragile shadow of her former self. She mostly
sits and just watches. When she makes criticisms I have to stop myself from
reacting in the same vigorous manner that I used to when she was fully alert
and competent. Sadly it seems like the part of her personality that has
remained strongest is that which is most unpleasant. She has become
reluctant or unable to make any simple decision - like what to order from
the menu. Jayn was so gentle and caring of her, helping her sit or stand,
guiding her around obstacles, speaking in a sweet little voice. Then Mum
would try to show disapproval for some perfectly innocuous behavior like
jumping on a chair, by refusing to hug her goodbye.
Jayn didn't seem to notice. She is the most forgiving, optimistic, "see the
good in you" person I know. She will look for the good inside every
disappointment with the phrase "Well at least we can....." She is completely
convinced that even past death her Grandpa Jim and Grandma Paula still love
her, despite the fact that the former's indifference has only been exceeded
by his late wife's vindictiveness.
I'm sorry that my mother has been reduced to her current state. When she was
well she still was the victim of illogical fears (like a kidnapping in
Houston would be a reason for me never to leave the house in Los Angeles),
but then logic could be used to counter them, and she was much more able to
express that which was good and loving and playful in her towards Jayn.
Nothing helpful, just some thoughts sparked.
Robyn L. Coburn
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future catsup might not be so "plentiful" and cheap, and then what would we
do?!
Gee, I don't know-deal with it when and IF it ever happens?>>>
Your mother is not thinking logically - does she realize how insane it
sounds to talk about future catsup supplies at all? The only reason this
topic of conversation could be remotely reasonable is if you worked in the
food supply industry. My mother is often illogical also - and was even
before her brain aneurism 2.5 years ago. Years past she used to be convinced
that the USSR was going to physically invade the USA at any moment and
literally have soldiers marching in to every town to "take over" running it.
I said to her, "do you realize what a huge logistical task it would be to
just take over the daily organization of 250 million unwilling victims?" She
just wasn't thinking it through.
<<<After that sunk in, I had this almost uncontrolable urge to go buy the
big bottle of catsup, get a paperplate (at home) and joyfully empty the damn
thing onto the plate with gusto and joy!! I thought that might be a little
spiteful, and not sure what message it would send to Wyl, so I just relished
that little thought in my head for weeks!>>>>
I think it sounds like a kind of fun art with foodstuffs game. Whipped cream
and puddings make fun squidgy playtoys too.
<<<<Now, she's feeling it necessary to tell me what it is we're "teaching"
Wyl-or what he's "learning"-example: when he agreed to spend the night at
grandma and grandad's house one night (my folks), and then, later in the
week, changed his mind. My mother is telling me we should "force him to
stick to his original decision", because by letting him change his mind,
he's learning how to "manipulate people"! Ummm... couldn't he be learning
how to make the right decision in the FIRST place? Learning to know his own
mind? Yeah, like my mother has never changed her mind in her life... Sorry,
all-didn't mean to get off on a rant-my mother just gets my dander up. And
this is just the teeny-est tip of the iceburg!>>>>
Jayn isn't very good at holding up her end of a deal yet either. I'm sure
she will be eventually. I expect disappointment was coloring your mother's
reaction in that case. I hope she doesn't see it as a lost opportunity to
get Wyl alone and fix some of the dangerous damage you are doing to him?
My mother is wrong (from my point of view) about how to handle almost
everything. She was wrong in her parenting when I was young, wrong (in the
sense of producing sadness and anger) in many of her dealings with my
stepfather, and she is usually wrong now on those occasions when she makes
her parenting/marriage ideas known. Her paradigm is that it is the wife and
mother's job to control, direct and "improve" the basic character of the
husband, child or any one else she may come into contact with. Then the
methods she chooses for that basically wrong endeavor are additionally just
plain ineffective and ...wrong.
When she starts critiquing on the phone, I end the conversation at once. I
only see her once a year. They usually come at Christmas; this year they
came in September for reasons of their own that are unclear to me (my dad
has a lot of leeway in when he schedules his annual 4 week vacation). I
suspect that they are trying to manipulate us into spending Christmas with
them. My dh won't travel at Christmas, he has an aversion to crowds at the
best of times. They know this. He would travel to visit prior to or
following the actual holidays instead. We make this offer every year, but
the date is magical to them.
My mother has become such a fragile shadow of her former self. She mostly
sits and just watches. When she makes criticisms I have to stop myself from
reacting in the same vigorous manner that I used to when she was fully alert
and competent. Sadly it seems like the part of her personality that has
remained strongest is that which is most unpleasant. She has become
reluctant or unable to make any simple decision - like what to order from
the menu. Jayn was so gentle and caring of her, helping her sit or stand,
guiding her around obstacles, speaking in a sweet little voice. Then Mum
would try to show disapproval for some perfectly innocuous behavior like
jumping on a chair, by refusing to hug her goodbye.
Jayn didn't seem to notice. She is the most forgiving, optimistic, "see the
good in you" person I know. She will look for the good inside every
disappointment with the phrase "Well at least we can....." She is completely
convinced that even past death her Grandpa Jim and Grandma Paula still love
her, despite the fact that the former's indifference has only been exceeded
by his late wife's vindictiveness.
I'm sorry that my mother has been reduced to her current state. When she was
well she still was the victim of illogical fears (like a kidnapping in
Houston would be a reason for me never to leave the house in Los Angeles),
but then logic could be used to counter them, and she was much more able to
express that which was good and loving and playful in her towards Jayn.
Nothing helpful, just some thoughts sparked.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/5/04 10:15:38 AM, dezigna@... writes:
<< Your mother is not thinking logically - does she realize how insane it
sounds to talk about future catsup supplies at all? >>
Depends how old she is.
Peole who lived through The Depression were warped for life. My parents had,
Keith's parents did.
-=-The only reason this
topic of conversation could be remotely reasonable is if you worked in the
food supply industry.-=-
I was thinking one day at a burger joint when they gave us a handful of
disposable ketchup packets that I bet as much ketchup is thrown away as actually
eaten in the U.S., which is probably fine. It's tomato-based salt and sugar,
kind of, I think. Vinegar. It's "a sauce." It's not "a food." It's really
REALLY not "a big deal."
-=-Years past she used to be convinced
that the USSR was going to physically invade the USA at any moment and
literally have soldiers marching in to every town to "take over" running
it.-=-
1960's? We heard that all the time.
First they bomb a dozen places, then they take over the rest and we become
slaves of the communist state.
-=-Her paradigm is that it is the wife and
mother's job to control, direct and "improve" the basic character of the
husband, child or any one else she may come into contact with. -=-
I agree with her lightly. <g>
Yesterday I watched a lot of Wooster and Jeeves, while working on new sets of
Thinking Sticks. Several times characters said that someone (a valet or
potential wife) "might be able to make something of him" (usually about Wooster).
My mother in law is grumpy that Keith cared more about how I wanted him to be
than the way she wanted. But she did a huge job on her own husband. <g>
Sandra
<< Your mother is not thinking logically - does she realize how insane it
sounds to talk about future catsup supplies at all? >>
Depends how old she is.
Peole who lived through The Depression were warped for life. My parents had,
Keith's parents did.
-=-The only reason this
topic of conversation could be remotely reasonable is if you worked in the
food supply industry.-=-
I was thinking one day at a burger joint when they gave us a handful of
disposable ketchup packets that I bet as much ketchup is thrown away as actually
eaten in the U.S., which is probably fine. It's tomato-based salt and sugar,
kind of, I think. Vinegar. It's "a sauce." It's not "a food." It's really
REALLY not "a big deal."
-=-Years past she used to be convinced
that the USSR was going to physically invade the USA at any moment and
literally have soldiers marching in to every town to "take over" running
it.-=-
1960's? We heard that all the time.
First they bomb a dozen places, then they take over the rest and we become
slaves of the communist state.
-=-Her paradigm is that it is the wife and
mother's job to control, direct and "improve" the basic character of the
husband, child or any one else she may come into contact with. -=-
I agree with her lightly. <g>
Yesterday I watched a lot of Wooster and Jeeves, while working on new sets of
Thinking Sticks. Several times characters said that someone (a valet or
potential wife) "might be able to make something of him" (usually about Wooster).
My mother in law is grumpy that Keith cared more about how I wanted him to be
than the way she wanted. But she did a huge job on her own husband. <g>
Sandra
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<Depends how old she is.
Peole who lived through The Depression were warped for life. My parents
had,
Keith's parents did.>>
Yes I can vouch for that. One day quite awhile ago Joe went to Burger King
and we all had it at home. Later after everything was cleaned up, I caught
my mom in the kitchen snipping open all the ketchups packs from the bag and
putting them into the ketchup bottle. She really only stopped because she
was embarrassed when my oldest and I saw her doing it and laughed. We
weren't trying to be mean, but it was really a funny sight. It was the
depression warp with her too.
Mary B
<<Depends how old she is.
Peole who lived through The Depression were warped for life. My parents
had,
Keith's parents did.>>
Yes I can vouch for that. One day quite awhile ago Joe went to Burger King
and we all had it at home. Later after everything was cleaned up, I caught
my mom in the kitchen snipping open all the ketchups packs from the bag and
putting them into the ketchup bottle. She really only stopped because she
was embarrassed when my oldest and I saw her doing it and laughed. We
weren't trying to be mean, but it was really a funny sight. It was the
depression warp with her too.
Mary B
Sylvia Toyama
So that got me to thinking...Assuming a 12 oz. bottle of ketchup, that ketchup is going at $10 something a gallon! I'm paying $2 a GALLON for diesel for my car.
******
LOL I had to wonder where she's buying her catsup, or how big a bottle is $2! I picked up a 24oz bottle last week for 88 cents at WalMart. More like $4.50 a gallon, but you're right still more than twice the price of the diesel for my car, too! And we buy a lot of catsup (I almost never eat the stuff, but dh and boys live on it!). When the boys over-serve it -- and when don't they? -- I just scoop what's left off the plate and back into the bottle. At least I put it in the fridge at home. You'd be amazed at how rare it is for restaurants to refrigerate catsup -- and that's after they consolidate bottles. For that reason alone, the only way we eat catsup away from home is in to go packs.
Sylvia
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******
LOL I had to wonder where she's buying her catsup, or how big a bottle is $2! I picked up a 24oz bottle last week for 88 cents at WalMart. More like $4.50 a gallon, but you're right still more than twice the price of the diesel for my car, too! And we buy a lot of catsup (I almost never eat the stuff, but dh and boys live on it!). When the boys over-serve it -- and when don't they? -- I just scoop what's left off the plate and back into the bottle. At least I put it in the fridge at home. You'd be amazed at how rare it is for restaurants to refrigerate catsup -- and that's after they consolidate bottles. For that reason alone, the only way we eat catsup away from home is in to go packs.
Sylvia
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
<<Depends how old she is.
People who lived through The Depression were warped for life. My parents had, Keith's parents did.>>
*****
Not just the Depression, but WWII for some folks. My inlaws grew up in Hawaii, with dusk-to-dawn blackout curfews, and all sorts of rations. My mil actually washes and re-uses ziplok bags, as well as ever plastic container for things like margarine. I think she also re-uses aluminum foil when she can.
Sylvia
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People who lived through The Depression were warped for life. My parents had, Keith's parents did.>>
*****
Not just the Depression, but WWII for some folks. My inlaws grew up in Hawaii, with dusk-to-dawn blackout curfews, and all sorts of rations. My mil actually washes and re-uses ziplok bags, as well as ever plastic container for things like margarine. I think she also re-uses aluminum foil when she can.
Sylvia
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Emile Snyder
On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 11:44, Sylvia Toyama wrote:
rations. My mil actually washes and re-uses ziplok bags, as well as
ever plastic container for things like margarine. I think she also
re-uses aluminum foil when she can. <<<
I'm 29 and I do these things ;) I don't feel particularly warped; it
just seems like a reasonable expression of my desire to reduce the
amount of trash I generate.
-emile
>>> Not just the Depression, but WWII for some folks. My inlaws grew upin Hawaii, with dusk-to-dawn blackout curfews, and all sorts of
rations. My mil actually washes and re-uses ziplok bags, as well as
ever plastic container for things like margarine. I think she also
re-uses aluminum foil when she can. <<<
I'm 29 and I do these things ;) I don't feel particularly warped; it
just seems like a reasonable expression of my desire to reduce the
amount of trash I generate.
-emile
Robyn Coburn
<<<<-=-Years past she used to be convinced
that the USSR was going to physically invade the USA at any moment and
literally have soldiers marching in to every town to "take over" running
it.-=-
1960's? We heard that all the time.>>>>>
My mother was born in 1934 to a reasonably affluent Brisbane family. She
lived in Townsville in Queensland, Australia during much of WWII - with
major US military presence and tank traps on the beaches. As an adult she
traveled much of the world as an entertainer including behind the iron
curtain Czechoslovakia when I was a toddler. Finally she came to the US to
live in 1980, at which time she developed her unusual fear of the Red Menace
- shortly before the Soviet Union collapsed.
Robyn L. Coburn
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that the USSR was going to physically invade the USA at any moment and
literally have soldiers marching in to every town to "take over" running
it.-=-
1960's? We heard that all the time.>>>>>
My mother was born in 1934 to a reasonably affluent Brisbane family. She
lived in Townsville in Queensland, Australia during much of WWII - with
major US military presence and tank traps on the beaches. As an adult she
traveled much of the world as an entertainer including behind the iron
curtain Czechoslovakia when I was a toddler. Finally she came to the US to
live in 1980, at which time she developed her unusual fear of the Red Menace
- shortly before the Soviet Union collapsed.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004