Can electronic media become addictive in children?
Julie Bogart
What would indicate an unhealthy use of electronic media? How would you know it?
My hunch is that we are mostly just prejudiced against it and interpret extended play as
addiction. But I want to hear from anyone who has another opinion or at least some debate
on what it means for *any* behavior to be seen as addictive.
Thanks,
Julie B
My hunch is that we are mostly just prejudiced against it and interpret extended play as
addiction. But I want to hear from anyone who has another opinion or at least some debate
on what it means for *any* behavior to be seen as addictive.
Thanks,
Julie B
pam sorooshian
On Sep 25, 2004, at 11:58 AM, Julie Bogart wrote:
be indicators of problems - symptoms of a lack of health. If one of my
normally high-energy, active, productive teenage daughters began, for
no apparent reason, to spend most of her days lying on the couch
watching daytime tv like Oprah, soap operas, Jerry Springer, and
infomercials, that would indicate that something was going on with her
that almost certainly wasn't healthy. I'd suspect depression and be
worried about her.
On the other hand, I don't worry at all when they have periods of time
of watching an unusual amount of tv - usually, but not always, it is
apparent to me that they are TIRED and this is recuperation time from a
period of intense activity. Or there is emotional stuff going on in
their lives (boyfriend breakups, etc.) and they are utilizing this time
to keep one part of their brain occupied while other parts are
processing the issues. Occasionally it means they are coming down with
a cold or something. Once in a while it has meant, for Roya, that she
was procrastinating on doing something she felt she should do, but
dreaded. Sometimes I can say, "So, what is up?" and that'll initiate a
stream of information and deep discussion. Other times, the kid'll say,
"Nothing, just tired." So be it. I keep an eye on them - usually spend
time watching with them (which I don't usually do, by the way).
If you just tell them, "Turn off the tv - two hours a day is enough for
you," then you could be treating a symptom and masking a problem. AND,
you could even be removing them from something that is actually helping
and healing for them.
-pam
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> What would indicate an unhealthy use of electronic media? How wouldI wouldn't call it an "unhealthy use" but I think some kinds of use can
> you know it?
be indicators of problems - symptoms of a lack of health. If one of my
normally high-energy, active, productive teenage daughters began, for
no apparent reason, to spend most of her days lying on the couch
watching daytime tv like Oprah, soap operas, Jerry Springer, and
infomercials, that would indicate that something was going on with her
that almost certainly wasn't healthy. I'd suspect depression and be
worried about her.
On the other hand, I don't worry at all when they have periods of time
of watching an unusual amount of tv - usually, but not always, it is
apparent to me that they are TIRED and this is recuperation time from a
period of intense activity. Or there is emotional stuff going on in
their lives (boyfriend breakups, etc.) and they are utilizing this time
to keep one part of their brain occupied while other parts are
processing the issues. Occasionally it means they are coming down with
a cold or something. Once in a while it has meant, for Roya, that she
was procrastinating on doing something she felt she should do, but
dreaded. Sometimes I can say, "So, what is up?" and that'll initiate a
stream of information and deep discussion. Other times, the kid'll say,
"Nothing, just tired." So be it. I keep an eye on them - usually spend
time watching with them (which I don't usually do, by the way).
If you just tell them, "Turn off the tv - two hours a day is enough for
you," then you could be treating a symptom and masking a problem. AND,
you could even be removing them from something that is actually helping
and healing for them.
-pam
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/25/2004 12:59:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:
I want to hear from anyone who has another opinion or at least some debate
on what it means for *any* behavior to be seen as addictive.
======
Marty and Holly like to joke, when someone says 'addiction' to something that
isn't literally addictive, "I'm addicted to food," and "I'm addicted to
sleep."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
I want to hear from anyone who has another opinion or at least some debate
on what it means for *any* behavior to be seen as addictive.
======
Marty and Holly like to joke, when someone says 'addiction' to something that
isn't literally addictive, "I'm addicted to food," and "I'm addicted to
sleep."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
Maybe that's what I need to do. Look u[ the term!
Julie B
> Marty and Holly like to joke, when someone says 'addiction' to something thatLol!
> isn't literally addictive, "I'm addicted to food," and "I'm addicted to
> sleep."
Maybe that's what I need to do. Look u[ the term!
Julie B
velvet jiang
my dh was addicted to gambling. it was an addiction to me because he was
willing to destroy his life for the rush of doing it. we worked through the
issue which had nothing to do with gambling and now he doesn't have this
problem. we didn't have to quit everything as the gam-anon would suggests.
he just worked through the real problem and the symptoms got better.
just our experience.
velvet
willing to destroy his life for the rush of doing it. we worked through the
issue which had nothing to do with gambling and now he doesn't have this
problem. we didn't have to quit everything as the gam-anon would suggests.
he just worked through the real problem and the symptoms got better.
just our experience.
velvet
>From: "Julie Bogart" <julie@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Can electronic media become addictive in
>children?
>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:58:30 -0000
>
>What would indicate an unhealthy use of electronic media? How would you
>know it?
>
>My hunch is that we are mostly just prejudiced against it and interpret
>extended play as
>addiction. But I want to hear from anyone who has another opinion or at
>least some debate
>on what it means for *any* behavior to be seen as addictive.
>
>Thanks,
>Julie B
>
Robyn Coburn
Some thoughts on addiction:
If someone has had the disease of addiction prominent in their lives, either
suffering themselves or having suffered the effects of addiction in parents
or other family members, they can sometimes (maybe often) be looking at
behaviors, ideas, events, their children's personalities, other people,
through "addiction-colored lenses". They sometimes see behavior and mentally
categorize it as "obsessive", "scary", "compulsive", "addictive",
"worrying", "excessive", "out-of-control" and possibly as indicative of
"addictive personality" in their children, and start feeling all the fear
and desire to control that will create.
If looked at through the compassionate lenses of Unschooling, the same
behaviors might be described as "immersive learning", "passionate",
"committed", "absorbing", "curious", "fascinating" or more neutrally as
"decompressing", "temporary", or indicative of the kind of specific issues
that Pam described in her post.
Maybe the way some of our children use electronic media *looks* like
obsession sometimes. But does it stay that way forever? Does it progress to
become more compulsive, expand over more of their lives, take over all their
thinking to the exclusion of loving human relationships, eventually
superseding even basic survival needs? Because that is what the insidious
disease of addiction often does.
I don't know with any surety whether electronic media "can" become
addictive, or not. I don't think it does over the long haul in the vast
majority of our engaged, busy and free Unschooled children. I don't see it
becoming that way in Jayn anyway.
For a description of immersive learning in relation to computer use (and
other areas), see "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter.
It has been at least two weeks since I recommended her book. Falling down on
the job! [vbg]
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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If someone has had the disease of addiction prominent in their lives, either
suffering themselves or having suffered the effects of addiction in parents
or other family members, they can sometimes (maybe often) be looking at
behaviors, ideas, events, their children's personalities, other people,
through "addiction-colored lenses". They sometimes see behavior and mentally
categorize it as "obsessive", "scary", "compulsive", "addictive",
"worrying", "excessive", "out-of-control" and possibly as indicative of
"addictive personality" in their children, and start feeling all the fear
and desire to control that will create.
If looked at through the compassionate lenses of Unschooling, the same
behaviors might be described as "immersive learning", "passionate",
"committed", "absorbing", "curious", "fascinating" or more neutrally as
"decompressing", "temporary", or indicative of the kind of specific issues
that Pam described in her post.
Maybe the way some of our children use electronic media *looks* like
obsession sometimes. But does it stay that way forever? Does it progress to
become more compulsive, expand over more of their lives, take over all their
thinking to the exclusion of loving human relationships, eventually
superseding even basic survival needs? Because that is what the insidious
disease of addiction often does.
I don't know with any surety whether electronic media "can" become
addictive, or not. I don't think it does over the long haul in the vast
majority of our engaged, busy and free Unschooled children. I don't see it
becoming that way in Jayn anyway.
For a description of immersive learning in relation to computer use (and
other areas), see "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter.
It has been at least two weeks since I recommended her book. Falling down on
the job! [vbg]
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Danielle Conger
Robyn wrote: If someone has had the disease of addiction prominent in their lives, either
suffering themselves or having suffered the effects of addiction in parents
or other family members, they can sometimes (maybe often) be looking at
behaviors, ideas, events, their children's personalities, other people,
through "addiction-colored lenses". They sometimes see behavior and mentally
categorize it as "obsessive", "scary", "compulsive", "addictive",
"worrying", "excessive", "out-of-control" and possibly as indicative of
"addictive personality" in their children, and start feeling all the fear
and desire to control that will create.
============
Gosh, I'm obsessive and compulsive and I never thought of those as bad things! *lol* I wouldn't get nearly as much done without those wonderful traits.
Seriously, though, as the daughter of an alcoholic, I learned somewhere along the way (back when I was doing therapy) that alcoholics and children of alcoholics often have a hard time completing projects and finishing things they started. Being obsessive and compulsive has meant that I never suffered from that particular trait.
I think the point about overly-controlling children because of a perceived fear is a really good one.
<>--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
suffering themselves or having suffered the effects of addiction in parents
or other family members, they can sometimes (maybe often) be looking at
behaviors, ideas, events, their children's personalities, other people,
through "addiction-colored lenses". They sometimes see behavior and mentally
categorize it as "obsessive", "scary", "compulsive", "addictive",
"worrying", "excessive", "out-of-control" and possibly as indicative of
"addictive personality" in their children, and start feeling all the fear
and desire to control that will create.
============
Gosh, I'm obsessive and compulsive and I never thought of those as bad things! *lol* I wouldn't get nearly as much done without those wonderful traits.
Seriously, though, as the daughter of an alcoholic, I learned somewhere along the way (back when I was doing therapy) that alcoholics and children of alcoholics often have a hard time completing projects and finishing things they started. Being obsessive and compulsive has meant that I never suffered from that particular trait.
I think the point about overly-controlling children because of a perceived fear is a really good one.
<>--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/26/04 3:08:33 AM, dezigna@... writes:
<< Because that is what the insidious
disease of addiction often does. >>
I agree with just about everything in Robin's post except that. I especially
liked this:
-=-Does it progress to
become more compulsive, expand over more of their lives, take over all their
thinking to the exclusion of loving human relationships, eventually
superseding even basic survival needs?-=-
And the contrast to this:
-=-If looked at through the compassionate lenses of Unschooling, the same
behaviors might be described as "immersive learning", "passionate",
"committed", "absorbing", "curious", "fascinating" or more neutrally as
"decompressing", "temporary", or indicative of the kind of specific issues
that Pam described in her post.-=-
But I don't think "addiction" itself is a "disease."
I don't think there's a "disease of addiction."
Alcoholics become dependent on the alcohol.
Smokers become dependent on the cigarettes.
Gamblers are like bar-trained rats who have won a few times and keep pressing
that bar to get another win. That's operant conditioning combined with big
wishes and the person gets stuck there. (And sometimes it's a avoidance of
doing other things.)
If someone is depressed, he might sleep a lot, or eat a lot, or drink a lot
(even if he's not prone to alcoholism and isn't an alcoholic). If someone is
in a low-level avoidance kind of funk, he might watch TV a lot, or listen to
the same sad music a lot, or play solitaire a lot, or go to cheap afternoon
movies a lot.
There are people who like routines and repetitive motions, and same hobbies
and same same same. People who play tennis every day, or swim every day.
People who knit or crochet baby blankets even when they don't have any friends
who are about to have a baby.
Some people have the same breakfast every day.
I know "addiction" has meanings beyond the literal original, but I don't
think there's a disease.
Sandra
<< Because that is what the insidious
disease of addiction often does. >>
I agree with just about everything in Robin's post except that. I especially
liked this:
-=-Does it progress to
become more compulsive, expand over more of their lives, take over all their
thinking to the exclusion of loving human relationships, eventually
superseding even basic survival needs?-=-
And the contrast to this:
-=-If looked at through the compassionate lenses of Unschooling, the same
behaviors might be described as "immersive learning", "passionate",
"committed", "absorbing", "curious", "fascinating" or more neutrally as
"decompressing", "temporary", or indicative of the kind of specific issues
that Pam described in her post.-=-
But I don't think "addiction" itself is a "disease."
I don't think there's a "disease of addiction."
Alcoholics become dependent on the alcohol.
Smokers become dependent on the cigarettes.
Gamblers are like bar-trained rats who have won a few times and keep pressing
that bar to get another win. That's operant conditioning combined with big
wishes and the person gets stuck there. (And sometimes it's a avoidance of
doing other things.)
If someone is depressed, he might sleep a lot, or eat a lot, or drink a lot
(even if he's not prone to alcoholism and isn't an alcoholic). If someone is
in a low-level avoidance kind of funk, he might watch TV a lot, or listen to
the same sad music a lot, or play solitaire a lot, or go to cheap afternoon
movies a lot.
There are people who like routines and repetitive motions, and same hobbies
and same same same. People who play tennis every day, or swim every day.
People who knit or crochet baby blankets even when they don't have any friends
who are about to have a baby.
Some people have the same breakfast every day.
I know "addiction" has meanings beyond the literal original, but I don't
think there's a disease.
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
<<<<But I don't think "addiction" itself is a "disease."
I don't think there's a "disease of addiction.">>>>
To be honest I don't know whether it is "a" disease, a chronic condition, a
state of mind, a physiological tendency, or what the medical definition is
(and I'm afraid I'm not at all motivated to do the research about that).
I do know that the Recovery Community of the 12 Steps (AA, NA, CA etc) uses
the "disease model" as their way of describing addiction. They do consider
that there is a disease of addiction, particularly because experientially
when someone is addicted to one thing (the "drug of choice") and begins to
work a program of recovery, often the addictive behavior or obsessive
feelings crop up somewhere else or are recognized as being part of other
areas of the addict's life (like shopping compulsively) or with some other
type of substance (food is big substitute substance). It is probably not a
disease in the medical sense that there is some germ or organism necessarily
causing an immune response, or however a doctor might define the word
"disease".
I think this naming issue is a bit like the word "Unschooling". We who are
doing it fully - whole life Radical Unschooling - have a definition and
usage of the word that is different from other people who (somewhat
annoyingly to me) consider themselves "unschooling, except for math" or
"unschooling with unit studies". The addicts seeking recovery are the ones
who are using the phrase "disease of addiction" because it seems to help
recovery, even if outside of that community the phrase seems wrong.
The main point I was trying to make earlier is that sometimes past
experiences with addiction color our perceptions, have us making negative
assumptions, and influence our word usage in ways that can increase fear and
decrease our ability to just observe our children. I don't think that being
afraid of electronic media is helpful for Unschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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I don't think there's a "disease of addiction.">>>>
To be honest I don't know whether it is "a" disease, a chronic condition, a
state of mind, a physiological tendency, or what the medical definition is
(and I'm afraid I'm not at all motivated to do the research about that).
I do know that the Recovery Community of the 12 Steps (AA, NA, CA etc) uses
the "disease model" as their way of describing addiction. They do consider
that there is a disease of addiction, particularly because experientially
when someone is addicted to one thing (the "drug of choice") and begins to
work a program of recovery, often the addictive behavior or obsessive
feelings crop up somewhere else or are recognized as being part of other
areas of the addict's life (like shopping compulsively) or with some other
type of substance (food is big substitute substance). It is probably not a
disease in the medical sense that there is some germ or organism necessarily
causing an immune response, or however a doctor might define the word
"disease".
I think this naming issue is a bit like the word "Unschooling". We who are
doing it fully - whole life Radical Unschooling - have a definition and
usage of the word that is different from other people who (somewhat
annoyingly to me) consider themselves "unschooling, except for math" or
"unschooling with unit studies". The addicts seeking recovery are the ones
who are using the phrase "disease of addiction" because it seems to help
recovery, even if outside of that community the phrase seems wrong.
The main point I was trying to make earlier is that sometimes past
experiences with addiction color our perceptions, have us making negative
assumptions, and influence our word usage in ways that can increase fear and
decrease our ability to just observe our children. I don't think that being
afraid of electronic media is helpful for Unschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 9/22/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/26/04 7:42:25 PM, dezigna@... writes:
<< The addicts seeking recovery are the ones
who are using the phrase "disease of addiction" because it seems to help
recovery, even if outside of that community the phrase seems wrong. >>
My concern is that parents will grasp "my kids might become addicted to TV"
or "...video games" and then they'll run off to prevent them watching enough to
decide to stop.
Without the freedom to decide, no decision is made by the child and we're
right back where we started.
Can people become addicted to the freedom to make their own decisions?
Isn't that one of the arguments against radical unschooling, that they won't
know how to go to class when they're grown, or how to wake up and go to work
if the don't have bedtimes and required "out of bed" times?
Some people are more compulsive than others. Some are more into repetition
and schedules. Some are restless and want to do what they've never done
before, all the time. <g> Addicted to changes? I don't think so. Just
personality differences.
Some who don't want to stop drinking speak disparagingly of those who are
doing AA and being sober as being "addicted to recovery."
Frank Smith said when he spoke at the HSC conference a couple of years back
that people need to be with the people they want to become like (not a quote,
he said it better). If people want to 'be recovered,' they need to be around
people who care about not drinking (or whatever it is). If parents want to
become parents who are courageous about freedoms for children, they need to
commune with those kinds of parents (at least online or somehow if they can't find
a group of them in person).
-=-The main point I was trying to make earlier is that sometimes past
experiences with addiction color our perceptions, have us making negative
assumptions, and influence our word usage in ways that can increase fear and
decrease our ability to just observe our children.-=-
Sometimes past experience with addiction makes the parents afraid of its
genetic component. But I don't think the "addiction" to drugs or alcohol or
gambling has the same physical or emotional reward and then damage as kids get from
video games and DVDs.
-=-I don't think that being afraid of electronic media is helpful for
Unschooling.-=-
I agree.
Yesterday on PBS I saw a documentary on the history of video gaming, from
pre-Pong days to the probable future. I had been in Kirby's room playing the
new game on Neopets (Destruct-O-Match II, a Tetrisish kind of thing) and had the
TV on PBS just to see what they had on Sundays. Something on garage sales
and thrift stores, and tracking some of the items to their inventors (with video
interviews and tie-ins, VERY cool). Then the video game thing came on and
I was stuck to it.
Keith came home from being out and about, and the pot of chicken curry I had
put on was done, but I could not leave the TV. So Keith came to see what was
so good, and HE was stuck. (He's also an engineer who has a specialty in
graphics.) I'm ordering the thing on DVD to watch with the kids, because though
they know lots more than we do about the later stuff, we can tell them eye
witness stories about the first things. <g> And two towns in southern New Mexico
were named--Alamogordo (where Keith grew up) and Socorro.
Three quotes from it (I didn't write down who said what, but I'm ordering a
copy of the show, so if anyone really cares later, I can check them).
"The world expects too much in one year,
and not enough in ten."
"People enjoy learning, but they don't enjoy being educated."
". . . the zen-like quality of the experience." (about the early target games
like space invaders)
The Video Game Revolution
1-800-937-5387
I wasn't addicted to that program, but at the time I was watching it, it was
more important to me than getting a bowl of food was.
My kids' lives are filled with moments when what they're doing is more
important than anything else. Sometimes that's sports, or a conversation or a card
game or board game. Sometimes it's a movie or a song they're listening to.
Sometimes it's getting a bowl of food. <g>
Sandra
<< The addicts seeking recovery are the ones
who are using the phrase "disease of addiction" because it seems to help
recovery, even if outside of that community the phrase seems wrong. >>
My concern is that parents will grasp "my kids might become addicted to TV"
or "...video games" and then they'll run off to prevent them watching enough to
decide to stop.
Without the freedom to decide, no decision is made by the child and we're
right back where we started.
Can people become addicted to the freedom to make their own decisions?
Isn't that one of the arguments against radical unschooling, that they won't
know how to go to class when they're grown, or how to wake up and go to work
if the don't have bedtimes and required "out of bed" times?
Some people are more compulsive than others. Some are more into repetition
and schedules. Some are restless and want to do what they've never done
before, all the time. <g> Addicted to changes? I don't think so. Just
personality differences.
Some who don't want to stop drinking speak disparagingly of those who are
doing AA and being sober as being "addicted to recovery."
Frank Smith said when he spoke at the HSC conference a couple of years back
that people need to be with the people they want to become like (not a quote,
he said it better). If people want to 'be recovered,' they need to be around
people who care about not drinking (or whatever it is). If parents want to
become parents who are courageous about freedoms for children, they need to
commune with those kinds of parents (at least online or somehow if they can't find
a group of them in person).
-=-The main point I was trying to make earlier is that sometimes past
experiences with addiction color our perceptions, have us making negative
assumptions, and influence our word usage in ways that can increase fear and
decrease our ability to just observe our children.-=-
Sometimes past experience with addiction makes the parents afraid of its
genetic component. But I don't think the "addiction" to drugs or alcohol or
gambling has the same physical or emotional reward and then damage as kids get from
video games and DVDs.
-=-I don't think that being afraid of electronic media is helpful for
Unschooling.-=-
I agree.
Yesterday on PBS I saw a documentary on the history of video gaming, from
pre-Pong days to the probable future. I had been in Kirby's room playing the
new game on Neopets (Destruct-O-Match II, a Tetrisish kind of thing) and had the
TV on PBS just to see what they had on Sundays. Something on garage sales
and thrift stores, and tracking some of the items to their inventors (with video
interviews and tie-ins, VERY cool). Then the video game thing came on and
I was stuck to it.
Keith came home from being out and about, and the pot of chicken curry I had
put on was done, but I could not leave the TV. So Keith came to see what was
so good, and HE was stuck. (He's also an engineer who has a specialty in
graphics.) I'm ordering the thing on DVD to watch with the kids, because though
they know lots more than we do about the later stuff, we can tell them eye
witness stories about the first things. <g> And two towns in southern New Mexico
were named--Alamogordo (where Keith grew up) and Socorro.
Three quotes from it (I didn't write down who said what, but I'm ordering a
copy of the show, so if anyone really cares later, I can check them).
"The world expects too much in one year,
and not enough in ten."
"People enjoy learning, but they don't enjoy being educated."
". . . the zen-like quality of the experience." (about the early target games
like space invaders)
The Video Game Revolution
1-800-937-5387
I wasn't addicted to that program, but at the time I was watching it, it was
more important to me than getting a bowl of food was.
My kids' lives are filled with moments when what they're doing is more
important than anything else. Sometimes that's sports, or a conversation or a card
game or board game. Sometimes it's a movie or a song they're listening to.
Sometimes it's getting a bowl of food. <g>
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/27/2004 10:13:34 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Can people become addicted to the freedom to make their own decisions?
~~~
I think Will is "addicted" to that freedom, if you want to define it that
way. He feels very very strongly about it, anyway.
I told him about a woman in Memphis who has been living on the sidewalk
outside the Lorraine Motel for years and years as a protest against the city
taking her home in the Lorraine Motel and turning it into a museum in memory of
Martin Luther King, Jr. We drove by and saw her sitting there. He was simply
astounded that someone would go to that length to defend what they believe
in. But as he considered it, he said, "I would do that, if someone tried to
make me go to school against my will. I'd do whatever I could to keep it from
happening."
He makes his decisions, and then stands by his decisions. He makes up his
mind, and then he generally follows through on them. He decides whether the
competitive baseball team's coach is respectful enough for him, and if he
doesn't think so, he doesn't try out...and he doesn't whine about not getting to
play for that team. If he were to choose to get up early every day and go to
practice, he'd either get up and do it, or change his mind and find another
way to get what he wants.
A kid knowing that he has that freedom to go and do what he wants AND has
the option to change his mind is much more empowered than one who is forced to
get up every day, just to practice getting up every day.
Which I know is not a revelation to you, Sandra.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Can people become addicted to the freedom to make their own decisions?
~~~
I think Will is "addicted" to that freedom, if you want to define it that
way. He feels very very strongly about it, anyway.
I told him about a woman in Memphis who has been living on the sidewalk
outside the Lorraine Motel for years and years as a protest against the city
taking her home in the Lorraine Motel and turning it into a museum in memory of
Martin Luther King, Jr. We drove by and saw her sitting there. He was simply
astounded that someone would go to that length to defend what they believe
in. But as he considered it, he said, "I would do that, if someone tried to
make me go to school against my will. I'd do whatever I could to keep it from
happening."
He makes his decisions, and then stands by his decisions. He makes up his
mind, and then he generally follows through on them. He decides whether the
competitive baseball team's coach is respectful enough for him, and if he
doesn't think so, he doesn't try out...and he doesn't whine about not getting to
play for that team. If he were to choose to get up early every day and go to
practice, he'd either get up and do it, or change his mind and find another
way to get what he wants.
A kid knowing that he has that freedom to go and do what he wants AND has
the option to change his mind is much more empowered than one who is forced to
get up every day, just to practice getting up every day.
Which I know is not a revelation to you, Sandra.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Anne O
Re: PBS Show *Video Game Revolution*...*** I'm ordering the thing on DVD to
watch with the kids,***
Sandra ~ we have it digitally recorded and would be happy to put it on a
video tape for you...Do you still have a VCR? Let me know if you're
interested.
I wrote to this list about that show a while ago...Jake really loved the
first part, but he said the second part got annoying a bit. I haven't yet
been able to sit down and watch it, but I did see the first half hour and I
liked what I saw.
I, also, tend to get very involved in things at times and ignore hunger (the
day I downloaded *IM*ing and was having fun chatting w/Susan comes to
mind...Jake and Sam and I were starving for lunch...but were having so much
fun playing w/all the options...). Sometimes I'll even ignore my need to go
to the bathroom until the last possible moment (OK...I know...t.m.i...or as
Mary Lewis said, "T.M.A. ~ Too Much Anne!")!! :-)
Be Well ~
Anne
watch with the kids,***
Sandra ~ we have it digitally recorded and would be happy to put it on a
video tape for you...Do you still have a VCR? Let me know if you're
interested.
I wrote to this list about that show a while ago...Jake really loved the
first part, but he said the second part got annoying a bit. I haven't yet
been able to sit down and watch it, but I did see the first half hour and I
liked what I saw.
I, also, tend to get very involved in things at times and ignore hunger (the
day I downloaded *IM*ing and was having fun chatting w/Susan comes to
mind...Jake and Sam and I were starving for lunch...but were having so much
fun playing w/all the options...). Sometimes I'll even ignore my need to go
to the bathroom until the last possible moment (OK...I know...t.m.i...or as
Mary Lewis said, "T.M.A. ~ Too Much Anne!")!! :-)
Be Well ~
Anne
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/27/04 2:00:38 PM, ohman@... writes:
<< Sandra ~ we have it digitally recorded and would be happy to put it on a
video tape for you...Do you still have a VCR? Let me know if you're
interested. >>
Thanks for the offer, but I already ordered it on DVD. Kirby's room only
plays DVDs these days, not tapes (until we rearrange/re-hook/revamp), and that's
where it will be watched, things being what they are with the migrations of
teenagers here. <g>
After you mentioned it I was hoping I'd see it, but it came upon my all
accidental-like. I knew when I saw it you'd said it was good, though!
Sandra
<< Sandra ~ we have it digitally recorded and would be happy to put it on a
video tape for you...Do you still have a VCR? Let me know if you're
interested. >>
Thanks for the offer, but I already ordered it on DVD. Kirby's room only
plays DVDs these days, not tapes (until we rearrange/re-hook/revamp), and that's
where it will be watched, things being what they are with the migrations of
teenagers here. <g>
After you mentioned it I was hoping I'd see it, but it came upon my all
accidental-like. I knew when I saw it you'd said it was good, though!
Sandra
Betsy and Chris
> <<<<But I don't think "addiction" itself is a "disease."a
> I don't think there's a "disease of addiction.">>>>
>
> To be honest I don't know whether it is "a" disease, a chronic condition,
> state of mind, a physiological tendency, or what the medical definition isFor what it's worth:
> (and I'm afraid I'm not at all motivated to do the research about that).
> The addicts seeking recovery are the ones
> who are using the phrase "disease of addiction" because it seems to help
> recovery, even if outside of that community the phrase seems wrong.
The American Medical Association has given formal recognition to the disease
concept since 1956. Their recognizing alcoholism and other drug addiction as
an illness implies several things:
The illness can be described.
The course of the illness is predictable and progressive.
The disease is primary – that is, it is not just a symptom of some other
underlying disorder.
It is permanent.
It is terminal. If left untreated, it results in insanity or premature
death.
Using this model, there is little correlation betw. being addicted to drugs
or alcohol and being "addicted" to TV/other media. One might exhibit
"addictive" or compulsive behavior re. TV (watching to the exclusion of
other normal activities/physiological needs), but I think that would be a
symptom of something else, not an addiction born out of repeated usage.
> The main point I was trying to make earlier is that sometimes pastand
> experiences with addiction color our perceptions, have us making negative
> assumptions, and influence our word usage in ways that can increase fear
> decrease our ability to just observe our children. I don't think thatbeing
> afraid of electronic media is helpful for Unschooling.I agree. And caution is hardly the same as fear-based paralysis.
Betsy S.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/27/2004 7:54:46 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
canderson51@... writes:
For what it's worth:
The American Medical Association has given formal recognition to the disease
concept since 1956.
======
I accept that alcoholism is a disease.
I don't accept that there is a disease called addiction.
There's alcoholism.
There's drug addiction.
Those are defined and treated as progressive diseases.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
canderson51@... writes:
For what it's worth:
The American Medical Association has given formal recognition to the disease
concept since 1956.
======
I accept that alcoholism is a disease.
I don't accept that there is a disease called addiction.
There's alcoholism.
There's drug addiction.
Those are defined and treated as progressive diseases.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], "Betsy and Chris" <canderson5=
1@c...>
wrote:
Julie B
1@c...>
wrote:
> For what it's worth:ase
>
> The American Medical Association has given formal recognition to the dise=
> concept since 1956. Their recognizing alcoholism and other drug addiction=as
> an illness implies several things:r
>
> The illness can be described.
> The course of the illness is predictable and progressive.
> The disease is primary that is, it is not just a symptom of some othe=
> underlying disorder.gs
> It is permanent.
> It is terminal. If left untreated, it results in insanity or premature
> death.
>
> Using this model, there is little correlation betw. being addicted to dru=
> or alcohol and being "addicted" to TV/other media. One might exhibitBetsy, this was extremely helpful to me. Thank you!
> "addictive" or compulsive behavior re. TV (watching to the exclusion of
> other normal activities/physiological needs), but I think that would be a=
> symptom of something else, not an addiction born out of repeated usage.
Julie B
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
the other kinds of "addictive" behaviros are referred to as "obsessions" and they are not
considered diseases.
Btw, Sandra, my son is nearly 18 and he has hair as long as Kirby's (we were so surprised!)
and has finally found a place to play Magic every week. Last night, he finally met some
D&D friends through his new job at Starbucks. Your encouragement and example were
inspirational to me and eventually helpful to my son. Thanks for posting that great piece
about how Kirby's future looks to him.
Thanks. :)
Julie B
> In a message dated 9/27/2004 7:54:46 PM Mountain Daylight Time,That's it. I researched and the medical and psychiatric community are willing to say that
> canderson51@c... writes:
> For what it's worth:
>
> The American Medical Association has given formal recognition to the disease
> concept since 1956.
> ======
>
> I accept that alcoholism is a disease.
> I don't accept that there is a disease called addiction.
>
> There's alcoholism.
> There's drug addiction.
> Those are defined and treated as progressive diseases.
the other kinds of "addictive" behaviros are referred to as "obsessions" and they are not
considered diseases.
Btw, Sandra, my son is nearly 18 and he has hair as long as Kirby's (we were so surprised!)
and has finally found a place to play Magic every week. Last night, he finally met some
D&D friends through his new job at Starbucks. Your encouragement and example were
inspirational to me and eventually helpful to my son. Thanks for posting that great piece
about how Kirby's future looks to him.
Thanks. :)
Julie B
Betsy and Chris
Yes--now I get ya.
Betsy S.
Betsy S.
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
I accept that alcoholism is a disease.
I don't accept that there is a disease called addiction.
There's alcoholism.
There's drug addiction.
Those are defined and treated as progressive diseases.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]