jennefer harper

>>Join a secular, inclusive play-focused support group
>>in your area

How do you all, being such a strongly opinionated
group, have the tolerance to participate in such
inclusive groups? Our local homeschool association is
'inclusive' but I don't think they claim to be
'secular'. And, it's not completely 'play-focused'.

Tolerance seems to be an admirable trait, yet, to me
it means I have to bite my tongue a lot.

Any insight?

-Jennefer




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velvet jiang

>>>How do you all, being such a strongly opinionated
group, have the tolerance to participate in such
inclusive groups? Our local homeschool association is
'inclusive' but I don't think they claim to be
'secular'. And, it's not completely 'play-focused'.

Tolerance seems to be an admirable trait, yet, to me
it means I have to bite my tongue a lot.<<<

we joined an inclusive group when we lived in the city and out of the three
hundred families we found about 10 with which we connected. when we moved to
the country we couldn't find a group that was even a particle fit. when we
found out that one of the families that we connected with in the city had
also moved to our new area we started our own group (it took about 3 years
to find enough interest). it started with 6 families. i don't think we have
more than 15 now. if you can't find a gruop that works for you, then start
your own. you never know how many people out there in your area are at a
loss and looking for something like what you are looking for. when you start
your own group you can define what your looking for and the people who are
looking for the same will show interest.
maybe if you build it they will come.
velvet

Robyn Coburn

<<<<How do you all, being such a strongly opinionated
group, have the tolerance to participate in such
inclusive groups? Our local homeschool association is
'inclusive' but I don't think they claim to be
'secular'. And, it's not completely 'play-focused'.

Tolerance seems to be an admirable trait, yet, to me
it means I have to bite my tongue a lot.>>>>

There is a lot of difference in being in a Discussion group where radical
ideas are strongly debated, and being amongst a bunch of other mothers in a
public place like a park, where no-one is doing anything especially unkind
or abusive to their kids - just talking about the reading readiness program
they are planning to use, or sharing websites and organizing trips to
museums.

I bite my tongue by walking away. I don't get into curriculum conversations.
I also avoid any discussions of religion. If someone starts going on about
how they "have to" limit TV, I shrug and tell them that Jayn is free to
watch anything she wants any time, and that she doesn't crave it, and that
it is a choice that the parents are making. Jayn sure doesn't seem to spend
her time talking to the other kids about TV shows.

Sometimes people evidently feel superior to me because they are taking a
strong stance against for example candies (gasp), but their feelings will
make no change in how we live. Also it is really rare to have differences
canvassed in a heated manner at our group. I always say that Jayn can eat
whatever she wants whenever she wants. They look at me with evident
suspicion, and then they hear Jayn say "no thanks" to a cookie and ask for
an apple and they look perplexed.

One usually nice woman was impinging on her child's enjoyment by being what
I saw as quite pissy about the kid getting her feet wet. I didn't use that
rude word to her, but I did say something about how Jayn loved getting wet
any time. The other mother didn't have another pair of shoes with her, BUT
she told me that was deliberate because she doesn't like having to "deal
with" wet feet. Naturally Jayn was already soaking at the same park.

I related to her the story of how Jayn wanted to play squirt bottles with
ice water with me some nights before, so we each filled a bottle with water
from the fridge, and went into the bathroom in our clothes and squirted each
other and the mirror with great enjoyment (and some discomfort - brrr) for
about half an hour before getting out of our sopping garments and having a
warm bath. She did look at me like I was kinda nuts, but maybe that story
would have her thinking of the relative ease of wet feet or shoes, and how
simple willingness to be inconvenienced can end up creating a wonderful
memory.

If the support groups are not play-focused - by which I mean that they have
regularly scheduled park days where the kids just play freely together -
then they must be focused on something else. If that is academic classes it
may not be a supportive environment for an Unschooler. If that is craft
activities, beware of the thin edge of the wedge - and a lot depends on the
personality of the activity leader.

If it is group outings to places, maybe only choose to go on the "field
trips" (schoolish language :P~) that are of interest to your kids, and be
aware that the host of the museum (or whatever) will probably treat the
group as if they were school kids, with clipboards of special (often dumb)
activities to be completed, and a set agenda. It makes a difference to have
a high ratio of parents to kids, however, especially when the parents are
just as interested as the kids in the bugs or bones or exploding soda cans
or whatever.

If the focus is religious education or discussion, then that is a decision
the parents must debate themselves. Be aware that many of the religious
groups state openly that they are there to support the correct use of
religiously based academic curricula, especially in the sciences. If you are
*looking* for that you are probably not an Unschooler.

My purpose in being a member of a local group is first to find playmates for
Jayn from amongst gently parented kids. The distant second is to find, if
not lifelong deep friendships for myself, then at least congenial
acquaintances. The languishing third is to have easier access to some places
that have group discounts and are more fun to attend in a group. I get my
emotional and intellectual support (despite this not being the intended
purpose) from this list, and its sisters UnschoolingBasics, and
AlwaysLearning.

Robyn L. Coburn



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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/2004 9:02:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jiangvelvet@... writes:
> maybe if you build it they will come


I love that, I've never really looked at it that way. We know NO ONE in this
area and all family is far away. I am scared to death of building a group
and don't even know where to begin.

Just that little phrase gave me a little push, though.

Are there any resources for group creating or any suggestions from this group
from others who've done it.

Pamela in Hampton VA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

velvet jiang

>>>I love that, I've never really looked at it that way. We know NO ONE in
>>>this
>area and all family is far away. I am scared to death of building a group
>and don't even know where to begin.
>
>Just that little phrase gave me a little push, though.
>
>Are there any resources for group creating or any suggestions from this
>group
>from others who've done it.<<<


just a suggestion but first maybe jot down and decide what it is your
looking for and then post notices in your public library, community center
or any other place that might spark interest. if you find others who are
looking for the same thing you might be surprised at how much they are
willing to help. maybe just put something like, i am wanting to start a
group for .......... if you are interested in this type of group please
contact me for further discussion.
velvet


>

Fetteroll

on 9/11/04 8:24 PM, jennefer harper at jenneferh2000@... wrote:

> Tolerance seems to be an admirable trait, yet, to me
> it means I have to bite my tongue a lot.

Tolerance doesn't mean you have to live with the people or even rub elbows
with them! ;-)

Tolerance means you trust that people who are making informed choices are
making the right choice for them. You might not choose to be Buddhist for
yourself but accept that those who do choose Buddhism are doing so because
it suits their needs.

People who choose school are doing what they think is best for their kids. I
even spend time with some! ;-) But that doesn't mean I want to sit around
for an afternoon of school talk.

And being tolerant doesn't mean you believe all behavior is equal. One of my
lines is behavior that's deliberately hurtful. Tolerance means you don't
believe that everyone needs to be like you and think like you to be a good
person.

But, again, you don't have to spend time with them to be tolerant! Spend
your time with those you enjoy being with.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/2004 10:34:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
b229d655@... writes:

> maybe if you build it they will come


I love that, I've never really looked at it that way. We know NO ONE in
this
area and all family is far away. I am scared to death of building a group
and don't even know where to begin.

Just that little phrase gave me a little push, though.

Are there any resources for group creating or any suggestions from this
group
from others who've done it.<<<<

One of my favorite phrases! <BWG>

Start a yahoo e-group----like maybe [email protected]_
(mailto:[email protected]) . Post an invitation to all the
groups in your area.

Start a play group/ park day that meets EVERY Tuesday (or whenever) at a
certain park. BE THERE every week----even if you're just by yourself.

Post flyers at the health food stores and libraries.

Contact LLL leaders and ask them to broadcast your new group----many have
older children as well.

There are others out there in your same position. They may be members of
some local group----just because it's local and they think there are no other
options. MAKE the option!

Build it, and they WILL come! <G>

~Kelly









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marjorie Kirk

Joyce wrote:


Tolerance means you trust that people who are making informed choices are
making the right choice for them. You might not choose to be Buddhist for
yourself but accept that those who do choose Buddhism are doing so because
it suits their needs.

I love this! I just finished reading _My Ishmael_ by Daniel Quinn, which
was fabulous, BTW. In the book Ishmael states that tribal societies worked
as well as they did, for as long as they did, because they did what worked
for Their Tribe. He states many times that there is no One Right Way to
live. It gave me a whole new outlook on tolerance. He also has a chapter
called Unschooling the World (I think that was the name, but I left the book
in Florida for my sister to read next!) where he talks about the uselessness
of education as it is currently defined and implemented.


Marjorie
P.S. I already checked, but due to health reasons, DQ is not scheduling any
speaking engagements at this time.

pam sorooshian

On Sep 11, 2004, at 5:24 PM, jennefer harper wrote:

> Tolerance seems to be an admirable trait, yet, to me
> it means I have to bite my tongue a lot.
>
> Any insight?

Start your own group - make the description of it as an
"unschooling-friendly" group clear from the beginning - have it in
writing on the email list description or website. I even make handouts
that I take and pass around at the park every once in a while - as a
reminder.

Our group is not composed of all unschoolers. The group is very very
purposeful in its intention to be a group that is comfortable for
unschoolers and the group ITSELF is unschoolish - in that we make it
very clear that park day is PLAY day and what they do with their time
is up to the kids.

During September there is often too much talk about curriculum and
charter schools and so on -- if it gets too boring or annoying I
usually say something cheerful like, "Okay - enough of this - the
unschoolers among us are being turned into zombies!" <G>

There are enough of us who are unschoolers that we can get up and walk
away and hang out together, too. Also - it passes. And, we don't have
to listen to much complaining about curriculum or programs that aren't
working (that is the part that bothers me most) because "You don't have
to do it," is the smiling and cheerful response that they hear over and
over when they complain and there isn't much they can say after that.
<G>

This year, so far, it isn't happening. What HAS happened is that we had
a big influx of people with really young children, lots of toddlers and
babies - so we started sounding like a la leche meeting. Those of us
with teenagers are feeling a bit -- aged. Also, there is only so much
talking about the details of breastfeeding that I'm still interested in
<G>. But it is REALLY nice to have them all there - the babies,
toddlers, and older kids, too. I'm not really complaining!! It makes
me so happy to think that by the time these little ones are school age,
their moms and dads will have had the benefit of hanging around all the
older unschooling kids and parents and, whether they completely
unschool or not, they are likely to be far more relaxed than they would
have otherwise.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/2004 7:24:42 PM Central Standard Time,
jenneferh2000@... writes:

How do you all, being such a strongly opinionated
group, have the tolerance to participate in such
inclusive groups? Our local homeschool association is
'inclusive' but I don't think they claim to be
'secular'. And, it's not completely 'play-focused'


~~~

I helped start an inclusive, non-religious group. I always thought people
who really couldn't tolerate differences of religion, etc. (religion is the
biggie here, as it is in lots of places) would self-select out of it. That's
pretty much what happened. Lots of people in that group, now. I know some of
them are of the religious bent that doesn't approve of certain other kinds
of lifestyles, but they pretty much have shut up about it. What other
position is there to take, really?

A group that doesn't claim to be secular probably isn't, and has a
particular religious flavor, and you should watch out for that if it bothers you.
Inclusive in those circles usually means they don't mind if you don't use
curriculum.

Another person and I are starting an EXclusive group really soon (in a
different area than the last one). For UNSCHOOLERS and those who want to be,
only. Actually, I don't really care who comes, as long as they don't get all
schooly on us. ;)

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nichole, ubiquitous

DO IT! DO IT! That what I did and boy did the unschoolers and wanna-be's come out in droves! Almost 60 unschooling families just north of Austin, and 35 in South/Central Austin. I think exclusive unschooling groups are of the utmost importance. However, when unschoolers have only knows religious based-gotta-sign-a-statement-of-faith groups, they often just want a group of homeschoolers where everyone is welcome. I think nothing is as uplifting to an unschooling family as a whole as spending time with other unschooling families. In inclusive groups, discussion always quickly slides to curriculum use and schedules. Bleck! People found that our desire to have an exclusive group was harsh and mean at first, but they don't think so anymore. I am on a few inclusive lists, though, and each time unschooling gets mentioned, everyone batters the unschooler. There's a huge need for unschooling-only lists and groups.

Go go go! If you make it, they will come!

:o)
Nichole
----- Original Message -----
From: tuckervill2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Inclusiveness and Tolerance

Another person and I are starting an EXclusive group really soon (in a
different area than the last one). For UNSCHOOLERS and those who want to be,
only. Actually, I don't really care who comes, as long as they don't get all
schooly on us. ;)

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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In a message dated 9/12/2004 5:19:05 PM Central Standard Time,
ms_fausey@... writes:

Go go go! If you make it, they will come!



~~~

Thanks for the encouragement! :)

I don't intend to be all in-your-face about unschooling. I just want to
hang out people with people who, when I say *RELAX*, they will! ;)

Karen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenneferh2000

--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:

> Start your own group - make the description of it as an
> "unschooling-friendly" group clear from the beginning - have it in
> writing on the email list description or website

Yes! I did recently start a yahoo group, EugeneAreaUnschoolers, for
those unschoolers in the Eugene, Oregon area. 8 people have signed
up so far! *grin* I haven't really gone to too many lengths
to "advertise" it yet. And, although I did not use the
word 'exclusive' in the description, that's exactly what it is! I
specifically stated that it was not a homeschooling list or Waldorf
unschooling list or a list for someone who is unsure what unschooling
is. Hmm...perhaps I should revise that an add 'exclusive'
and 'secular'!

> There are enough of us who are unschoolers that we can get up and
walk
> away and hang out together, too

Right, but this is what I want to avoid. So, instead of having to
weed out the unschoolers, having an exclusive group would be ideal
for me.

>What HAS happened is that we had
> a big influx of people with really young children, lots of toddlers
and
> babies

This would be me with children ages 1 and 3!
It's just that all you 'experienced' unschoolers are so cool to hang
out with! Can't find better conversation!

Jennefer

pam sorooshian

> Are there any resources for group creating or any suggestions from
> this
> group
> from others who've done it.<<<<

NHEN has a whole bunch of stuff for people who are looking for,
starting, or running support groups.

<www.NHEN.org> click on "support" to get drop-down menu -- then you
have two areas to go to. The first is "Seeking Support" - there is even
an email list sponsored by NHEN for those who are thinking of starting
a new group. The second is for support group leaders - very cool
articles there.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Sep 12, 2004, at 1:34 PM, tuckervill2@... wrote:

> I always thought people
> who really couldn't tolerate differences of religion, etc. (religion
> is the
> biggie here, as it is in lots of places) would self-select out of it.
> That's
> pretty much what happened.

Helps too, if you give it a name that will encourage people to
"self-select" out <g>.

I've been in Rainbow Kids and Dragon Tree Home Learners. Both work well
for that purpose!

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Sandra Dodd

-=-If the focus is religious education or discussion, then that is a
decision
the parents must debate themselves. Be aware that many of the
religious
groups state openly that they are there to support the correct use
of
religiously based academic curricula, especially in the
sciences.-=-

Today I was at the Field Museum with another mom and her two
unschooled kids.

We decided to do a "highlights of the museum" tour (from which
we bailed partway through).

Early in, though, the docent asked where we were from. I was
the only non-Chicago resident. She asked about the kids:
"homeschooled."

She said, "Oh! We get a LOT of homeschoolers here! [pause]
And they're *all* *smart.*"

When she looked away, Kim and I shrugged and made the
big-eyes at each other.

Moments later she was talking about how many millions of years
old this Tyranosaurus Rex was. Not long after that, the evolution
of whales.

YEAH, right!!!!

The smart homeschoolers are the only ones who will visit a
blatantly "false-science" and non-creationist, unGodly place as
the temptation-of-Satan "Field Museum." The Creationist,
have-faith, don't-question, stay-home-where-it's-safe
homeschoolers probably tend not to go there.

Does that make me intolerant?
Does it make The Field Museum intolerant?
Some things I'm not interested in tolerating, and the idea of
keeping kids away from school so that they won't hear people
suggesting chimpanzees are our nearest relative (the THIRD
blasphemous phrase the woman used) is not a tolerable thing
in my own personal universe.

But luckily for my univese, the people who teach their children
revisionist history and creationist science are homeschooling
chiefly to keep their children away from people like me.

The hard question then is whether they and we (unschoolers,
rational, scientific, skeptical, humanist, whatever) and they are
"doing the same thing."

The only thing we're doing that's the same is not sending our
children to school.

Perhaps that's enough similarity for some people.
Politically it's the same thing.

Philosophically and educationally, there are profound
differences.

I have believed that for thirteen years, and my willingness to state
it seems to have gotten me in trouble.

Being a person who knows how to get A's in school, knows how
to "give the teacher what he wants," knows how to suck up to
authority figures, I *could* say the politically correct thing, the
"tolerant" thing, the "supportive" thing, but I'm not in school
anymore. I won't trade my integrity for an A.



Sandra

Sara

"Some things I'm not interested in tolerating, and the idea of
keeping kids away from school so that they won't hear people
suggesting chimpanzees are our nearest relative (the THIRD
blasphemous phrase the woman used) is not a tolerable thing
in my own personal universe.
But luckily for my univese, the people who teach their children
revisionist history and creationist science are homeschooling
chiefly to keep their children away from people like me.

The hard question then is whether they and we (unschoolers,
rational, scientific, skeptical, humanist, whatever) and they are
"doing the same thing."
The only thing we're doing that's the same is not sending our
children to school. Sandra"

This reminds me of the woman who called two days ago looking for
homeschool help. After answering a few questions, I started asking
HER questions. And...yep, here came the infamous chimp comment. It
always amazes me that these very uninformed people think we come from
chimps....I sent her to the local religious group with a flea in her
ear. I told her that she'd better allow her 11 year old daughter some
freedom to form her own thoughts as she grew or there WOULD be helll
in that household. Sara in NC

jenneferh2000

I'm confused by your reply. Are you suggesting that varying
explanations of life be offered to a child?

Also, I think there is a differance between 'uninformed' people
and 'misinformed' people.

-Jennefer


>I started asking
> HER questions. And...yep, here came the infamous chimp comment. It
> always amazes me that these very uninformed people think we come
from
> chimps....I sent her to the local religious group with a flea in
her
> ear. I told her that she'd better allow her 11 year old daughter
some
> freedom to form her own thoughts as she grew or there WOULD be
helll
> in that household. Sara in NC

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/15/04 2:56:15 PM, jenneferh2000@... writes:

<< Are you suggesting that varying

explanations of life be offered to a child? >>

I'm not the author of the quoted quote, but I will answer for my own life and
experience.

When my kids ask questions about things that neither of us can prove, I say
"some people believe X because of whatever, and others belive Y because of
whatever else."

I definitely think varying explanations of life should be offered to
children, in such cases as explanations vary.

-=-Also, I think there is a differance between 'uninformed' people

and 'misinformed' people.-=-

Right.
But no one except the clueless claim that people evolved from chimpanzees.
It's said to seem ridiculous, so that the hearer will be embarrassed. The
idea that humans and other apes perhaps evolved from common ancestors is not as
goofy/stunning/wrong.

Sandra

Sara

<jenneferh2000@y...> wrote:
I'm confused by your reply. Are you suggesting that varying
explanations of life be offered to a child?
Also, I think there is a differance between 'uninformed' people
and 'misinformed' people.

Hi Jennefer, I agree there is a difference between uninformed and
misinformed...this woman is deliberately uninformed. Many people in
my area refuse to consider, much less actually hear...discussion on
evolution. They are the kind that clap their children's ears when
such talk comes up.


"Are you suggesting that varying explanations of life be offered to a
child?"

When I started answering my children's questions about this I did
give them versions and we read about the different beliefs...so that
is a yes. Sorry to be unclear. Sara in NC

velvet jiang

when my dd was five she asked me who made the world and the people. i told
her that some people believe this and others believe that but since i wasn't
there i didn't really know for sure. she put her hands on her hips and said,
if you don't know then just take me to the library so i can find out. lol.
we went to the library and she checked out many books on the subject and we
read them together. when she was done (a couple of weeks later) she said
well i believe this. her thoughts have evolved and changed over the years
but it isn't something that is that important to her now. it was however a
great learning experience for her. it taught her that things aren't always
black and white (and also that her mom didn't know all the answers).
velvet

queenjane555

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> Right.
> But no one except the clueless claim that people evolved from
chimpanzees.
> It's said to seem ridiculous, so that the hearer will be
embarrassed. The
> idea that humans and other apes perhaps evolved from common
ancestors is not as
> goofy/stunning/wrong.
>
> Sandra


I will never forget, in fourth grade, our gym teacher Mrs Burt (who
was at the time teaching us "health" or some such thing)saying how
ridiculous the theory of evolution was, after all...if it were true
why werent the monkeys in the zoo turning into humans? Oh my, even
then i instinctively knew she was an idiot. And this wasnt THAT long
ago, maybe 1982. Sheesh!



Katherine (happy to be back online after weeks of no computer access!)