pro-television watching resources/unschooling journey
Laura Johnson
I'm having an extensive debate with a friend over some issues, one of which is television viewing. She has found numerous resources to back up the limiting of television watching in children. I'd like some for letting kids watch as much as they choose. We are also having issues over the no-punishment thing and could use some good resources for that as well. I had been reading Dr. Sears all along, but he is very anti-tv and even advocates punishment as necessary so that children "learn to respect external controls". I was surprised, not about the tv thing, but advocating punishment. I had never thought of us as punishers, but I guess some short time outs would still be punishment, I see that now. My friend actually takes away tv for days at a time for minor rule infractions and her daughter is only 4. This BTW, is the same friend with my money issue. The friendship may be fading fast. But, she is a friend I have known a long time. She kept calling it consequences and did not like it when I said it was a punishment. "No, we don't punish, we have consequences."
I said it is the same thing. She just didn't like the word.
We have been really trying the letting go of controls, especially since joining this list. We always have been very relaxed about most things, but I tended to think that I should be doing more to limit tv, encourage only healthy foods, KWIM. So far, it is going along well. I am happier taking away my shoulds and oughts. Some things we are still working on. The food thing is hard with a child in the 5% growth chart who really would eat cookies all day (probably not, I know). Anyhow, this particular friend is very controlling over so many aspects of her child's life, and since she asked my opinion, I am giving it. We ended up in a bit of an argument. I'm not going to change her mind, we are at polar opposites on this, but I would like to be able to hold my end up in the discussion. I am much happier and so is Ben now that we are yes parents all of the time, well, most of the time.
Another thing, I have noticed that dh seems to be tightening the controls as I am loosening. Is this typical? I do like getting to be the one who says yes more often now. He has noticed that he is feeling the need to say no more and is not really sure why. He is very aware of it and agreed when I mentioned it to him. How have other families dealt with parents coming to this at a different pace?
Laura J
Sorry this is kind of jumbled and choppy, my mind is on hurricane prep and I just sat down with this as a distraction. I also wanted to thank you all for opening my eyes and my mind to a new way of parenting. I may not get all the way there soon, but we are much happier.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I said it is the same thing. She just didn't like the word.
We have been really trying the letting go of controls, especially since joining this list. We always have been very relaxed about most things, but I tended to think that I should be doing more to limit tv, encourage only healthy foods, KWIM. So far, it is going along well. I am happier taking away my shoulds and oughts. Some things we are still working on. The food thing is hard with a child in the 5% growth chart who really would eat cookies all day (probably not, I know). Anyhow, this particular friend is very controlling over so many aspects of her child's life, and since she asked my opinion, I am giving it. We ended up in a bit of an argument. I'm not going to change her mind, we are at polar opposites on this, but I would like to be able to hold my end up in the discussion. I am much happier and so is Ben now that we are yes parents all of the time, well, most of the time.
Another thing, I have noticed that dh seems to be tightening the controls as I am loosening. Is this typical? I do like getting to be the one who says yes more often now. He has noticed that he is feeling the need to say no more and is not really sure why. He is very aware of it and agreed when I mentioned it to him. How have other families dealt with parents coming to this at a different pace?
Laura J
Sorry this is kind of jumbled and choppy, my mind is on hurricane prep and I just sat down with this as a distraction. I also wanted to thank you all for opening my eyes and my mind to a new way of parenting. I may not get all the way there soon, but we are much happier.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<I'm having an extensive debate with a friend over some issues, one of
which is television viewing. She has found numerous resources to back up
the limiting of television watching in children. I'd like some for letting
kids watch as much as they choose. We are also having issues over the
no-punishment thing and could use some good resources for that as well. I
had been reading Dr. Sears all along, but he is very anti-tv and even
advocates punishment as necessary so that children "learn to respect
external controls". I was surprised, not about the tv thing, but advocating
punishment. I had never thought of us as punishers, but I guess some short
time outs would still be punishment, I see that now. My friend actually
takes away tv for days at a time for minor rule infractions and her daughter
is only 4. This BTW, is the same friend with my money issue. The
friendship may be fading fast. But, she is a friend I have known a long
time. She kept calling it consequences and did not like it when I said it
was a punishment. "No, we don't punish, we have consequences."
I said it is the same thing. She just didn't like the word.>>>>
The dictionary is always a good source for word meanings, I reply drily.
From Dictionary.com:
Consequence:
1.Something that logically or naturally follows from an action or condition.
See Synonyms at effect.
2.The relation of a result to its cause.
3.A logical conclusion or inference.
4.Importance in rank or position: scientists of consequence.
5.Significance; importance: an issue of consequence. See Synonyms at
importance.
Punishment:
1. a. The act or an instance of punishing.
b. The condition of being punished.
2. A penalty imposed for wrongdoing: “The severity of the punishment must...
be in keeping with the kind of obligation which has been violated” (Simone
Weil).
3. Rough handling; mistreatment: These old skis have taken a lot of
punishment over the years.
Also:
Any pain, suffering, or loss inflicted on a person because of a crime or
offense.
Notice how active the verbs are related to punishment compared to
consequence.
What I have found increasingly is a personal dissatisfaction with the
parenting books I read, including those discussing child development such as
the Gessell Institute books. They all still have school preparation and
behavior modification in the back of their paradigm. Almost none come from
the real point of view of Unschooling as living in freedom and respecting
children. With the shining exception of "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie
Fitzenreiter. However that is a very challenging book for someone who is not
actually looking towards Unschooling - it could be good to challenge someone
however.
However the Gessell Institute books, I think the author of "Your Four Year
Old" is Louise Ames, will give her a better idea of what a 4yo is likely
developmentally capable of, which does not include the impulse control to
necessarily follow arbitrary rules, or making connections between the
punishment and the infraction. Since her child is so young she may get
something from www.naturalchild.org .
Taking away the TV entirely is possibly the most dopey punishment for a
restricted and limited household - by all means make sure that you give your
kid even more unoccupied time to get into what you might consider mischief.
(Not that I consider anything Jayn does as mischief.)
A book, that is certainly not about Unschooling or even home schooling
(plenty of school prep, pushing independence and not always respectful *in
comparison* to what Unschoolers suggest) but does strongly advocate against
punishing is "It's Not Fair, Jeremy Spencer's Parents Let Him Stay Up All
Night". It is so far behind what we are doing now in my household, but I
read it when I was pregnant and looking for some general kinder parenting
guidance. At the time (what a neophyte I was!) I was astonished and SO
relieved to know that it was possible to parent without punishments or even
time-outs. It may help your friend, and it is for her journey that I suggest
it - you are already beyond the ideas in it I expect. I'm sorry I can't
remember the author, but he is a PhD and father of several if that impresses
her.
I don't remember that author's stance on TV etc. What is important to
remember for yourself, if not in helping your friend, is that *all* the
studies are done on schooled children, whose personal time is limited by the
demands of school and its intrusion into the home (homework, rules,
schedules, even language). Eventually a child's whole thinking revolves
around school, and many of the conversations they have are to do with it. TV
becomes another competitor for the limited time they have to enhance their
relationships with their family, sleep, eat, play, or stare out the window
making up a story. For these children TV is zone-out and wind down time, and
in a way they need freedom to choose and watch even more than ours for whom
it is just another learning tool/resource.
We have never controlled Jayn's TV viewing in any way. Sometimes we have a
hard time getting her to let us watch anything in the living room. Not
because she wants the TV - Oh no - because she wants it OFF. She wants quiet
and serenity. I can’t remember the last time I got to watch a tv show all
through as it played (we have satellite & can record onto it) without her
really seeming to need it to be off. I hope I can watch old movies on TCM
again one day. Sigh.
<<<<We have been really trying the letting go of controls, especially since
joining this list. We always have been very relaxed about most things, but
I tended to think that I should be doing more to limit tv, encourage only
healthy foods, KWIM. So far, it is going along well. I am happier taking
away my shoulds and oughts. Some things we are still working on. The food
thing is hard with a child in the 5% growth chart who really would eat
cookies all day (probably not, I know).>>>>
It doesn't have to be a sudden deluge. Just say "yes" more often. Save "No"
for life or limb threatening situations, and save "later" for when you are
exhausted, on the way out, or need to think it over.
We have no food restrictions, but we also have available plenty of the good
stuff, like apples on the low shelf in the fridge. I don't wait for Jayn to
ask for something if she is busy playing, but bring her a plate of
sandwiches or sliced strawberries if it seems like a while since she ate. We
keep sodas, juice, milk and bottled water. She drinks all of these things -
but plain milk and water by far the most. She turns down chocolate and
candies often, but also eats them fairly often. She also shares them with
any visitor.
If you have an Ectopmorph, they will probably always be thin, graze a lot
all day rather than eat a few substantial meals, and do well with small
portions all their life (lucky them). How fortunate that you can honor that
eating style by having your child at home and free from eating to the bell.
<<<< Anyhow, this particular friend is very controlling over so many
aspects of her child's life, and since she asked my opinion, I am giving it.
We ended up in a bit of an argument. I'm not going to change her mind, we
are at polar opposites on this, but I would like to be able to hold my end
up in the discussion. I am much happier and so is Ben now that we are yes
parents all of the time, well, most of the time. >>>>
I have sometimes told people that I didn't pull "this stuff" out of the air,
but that there are people with more than 20 years experience sharing that
experience online who are living this way, whose children have grown up and
are marvelous, happy, intelligent and employed. Basically I say that it is a
proven system, only for the purpose of reassuring people. Of course it is
not really "a" system or anything so rigid seeming, but it helps other
people feel less concerned that Jayn is on her way to misery and penury.
I have lost friendships, just by letting them fade away. I don't have time
for negative judgmental people in my life. If people who know us can't see
how Jayn is thriving, happy and articulate beyond expectations for an almost
5 yo, then they are just stooopid.
Perhaps your friend is defensive because your child is happy and thriving
and yet you are relaxed, lenient and connected to your kid. How is that
possible? Where is the worm in the apple? Could my whole way of life really
be unnecessary? she asks herself feeling uncomfortable. Oh we don't like
discomfort. Truth - that is the worm in her apple eating away at her
assumptions. So deny, deny as much as possible. Defend, and if that doesn't
work, attack.
But the essential truth of what she has learnt from you and of your example
in front of her will not go away; it will keep niggling at her mind. If she
can't handle that little bug, you may find that she initiates the separation
by not calling as often etc.
Hope someone helps with the dad component. I'm very lucky in my dh.
Robyn L. Coburn
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which is television viewing. She has found numerous resources to back up
the limiting of television watching in children. I'd like some for letting
kids watch as much as they choose. We are also having issues over the
no-punishment thing and could use some good resources for that as well. I
had been reading Dr. Sears all along, but he is very anti-tv and even
advocates punishment as necessary so that children "learn to respect
external controls". I was surprised, not about the tv thing, but advocating
punishment. I had never thought of us as punishers, but I guess some short
time outs would still be punishment, I see that now. My friend actually
takes away tv for days at a time for minor rule infractions and her daughter
is only 4. This BTW, is the same friend with my money issue. The
friendship may be fading fast. But, she is a friend I have known a long
time. She kept calling it consequences and did not like it when I said it
was a punishment. "No, we don't punish, we have consequences."
I said it is the same thing. She just didn't like the word.>>>>
The dictionary is always a good source for word meanings, I reply drily.
From Dictionary.com:
Consequence:
1.Something that logically or naturally follows from an action or condition.
See Synonyms at effect.
2.The relation of a result to its cause.
3.A logical conclusion or inference.
4.Importance in rank or position: scientists of consequence.
5.Significance; importance: an issue of consequence. See Synonyms at
importance.
Punishment:
1. a. The act or an instance of punishing.
b. The condition of being punished.
2. A penalty imposed for wrongdoing: “The severity of the punishment must...
be in keeping with the kind of obligation which has been violated” (Simone
Weil).
3. Rough handling; mistreatment: These old skis have taken a lot of
punishment over the years.
Also:
Any pain, suffering, or loss inflicted on a person because of a crime or
offense.
Notice how active the verbs are related to punishment compared to
consequence.
What I have found increasingly is a personal dissatisfaction with the
parenting books I read, including those discussing child development such as
the Gessell Institute books. They all still have school preparation and
behavior modification in the back of their paradigm. Almost none come from
the real point of view of Unschooling as living in freedom and respecting
children. With the shining exception of "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie
Fitzenreiter. However that is a very challenging book for someone who is not
actually looking towards Unschooling - it could be good to challenge someone
however.
However the Gessell Institute books, I think the author of "Your Four Year
Old" is Louise Ames, will give her a better idea of what a 4yo is likely
developmentally capable of, which does not include the impulse control to
necessarily follow arbitrary rules, or making connections between the
punishment and the infraction. Since her child is so young she may get
something from www.naturalchild.org .
Taking away the TV entirely is possibly the most dopey punishment for a
restricted and limited household - by all means make sure that you give your
kid even more unoccupied time to get into what you might consider mischief.
(Not that I consider anything Jayn does as mischief.)
A book, that is certainly not about Unschooling or even home schooling
(plenty of school prep, pushing independence and not always respectful *in
comparison* to what Unschoolers suggest) but does strongly advocate against
punishing is "It's Not Fair, Jeremy Spencer's Parents Let Him Stay Up All
Night". It is so far behind what we are doing now in my household, but I
read it when I was pregnant and looking for some general kinder parenting
guidance. At the time (what a neophyte I was!) I was astonished and SO
relieved to know that it was possible to parent without punishments or even
time-outs. It may help your friend, and it is for her journey that I suggest
it - you are already beyond the ideas in it I expect. I'm sorry I can't
remember the author, but he is a PhD and father of several if that impresses
her.
I don't remember that author's stance on TV etc. What is important to
remember for yourself, if not in helping your friend, is that *all* the
studies are done on schooled children, whose personal time is limited by the
demands of school and its intrusion into the home (homework, rules,
schedules, even language). Eventually a child's whole thinking revolves
around school, and many of the conversations they have are to do with it. TV
becomes another competitor for the limited time they have to enhance their
relationships with their family, sleep, eat, play, or stare out the window
making up a story. For these children TV is zone-out and wind down time, and
in a way they need freedom to choose and watch even more than ours for whom
it is just another learning tool/resource.
We have never controlled Jayn's TV viewing in any way. Sometimes we have a
hard time getting her to let us watch anything in the living room. Not
because she wants the TV - Oh no - because she wants it OFF. She wants quiet
and serenity. I can’t remember the last time I got to watch a tv show all
through as it played (we have satellite & can record onto it) without her
really seeming to need it to be off. I hope I can watch old movies on TCM
again one day. Sigh.
<<<<We have been really trying the letting go of controls, especially since
joining this list. We always have been very relaxed about most things, but
I tended to think that I should be doing more to limit tv, encourage only
healthy foods, KWIM. So far, it is going along well. I am happier taking
away my shoulds and oughts. Some things we are still working on. The food
thing is hard with a child in the 5% growth chart who really would eat
cookies all day (probably not, I know).>>>>
It doesn't have to be a sudden deluge. Just say "yes" more often. Save "No"
for life or limb threatening situations, and save "later" for when you are
exhausted, on the way out, or need to think it over.
We have no food restrictions, but we also have available plenty of the good
stuff, like apples on the low shelf in the fridge. I don't wait for Jayn to
ask for something if she is busy playing, but bring her a plate of
sandwiches or sliced strawberries if it seems like a while since she ate. We
keep sodas, juice, milk and bottled water. She drinks all of these things -
but plain milk and water by far the most. She turns down chocolate and
candies often, but also eats them fairly often. She also shares them with
any visitor.
If you have an Ectopmorph, they will probably always be thin, graze a lot
all day rather than eat a few substantial meals, and do well with small
portions all their life (lucky them). How fortunate that you can honor that
eating style by having your child at home and free from eating to the bell.
<<<< Anyhow, this particular friend is very controlling over so many
aspects of her child's life, and since she asked my opinion, I am giving it.
We ended up in a bit of an argument. I'm not going to change her mind, we
are at polar opposites on this, but I would like to be able to hold my end
up in the discussion. I am much happier and so is Ben now that we are yes
parents all of the time, well, most of the time. >>>>
I have sometimes told people that I didn't pull "this stuff" out of the air,
but that there are people with more than 20 years experience sharing that
experience online who are living this way, whose children have grown up and
are marvelous, happy, intelligent and employed. Basically I say that it is a
proven system, only for the purpose of reassuring people. Of course it is
not really "a" system or anything so rigid seeming, but it helps other
people feel less concerned that Jayn is on her way to misery and penury.
I have lost friendships, just by letting them fade away. I don't have time
for negative judgmental people in my life. If people who know us can't see
how Jayn is thriving, happy and articulate beyond expectations for an almost
5 yo, then they are just stooopid.
Perhaps your friend is defensive because your child is happy and thriving
and yet you are relaxed, lenient and connected to your kid. How is that
possible? Where is the worm in the apple? Could my whole way of life really
be unnecessary? she asks herself feeling uncomfortable. Oh we don't like
discomfort. Truth - that is the worm in her apple eating away at her
assumptions. So deny, deny as much as possible. Defend, and if that doesn't
work, attack.
But the essential truth of what she has learnt from you and of your example
in front of her will not go away; it will keep niggling at her mind. If she
can't handle that little bug, you may find that she initiates the separation
by not calling as often etc.
Hope someone helps with the dad component. I'm very lucky in my dh.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Kelli Traaseth
***Another thing, I have noticed that dh seems to be tightening the controls as I am loosening. Is this typical? I do like getting to be the one who says yes more often now. He has noticed that he is feeling the need to say no more and is not really sure why. He is very aware of it and agreed when I mentioned it to him. How have other families dealt with parents coming to this at a different pace?***
For me I had to realize that my dh wasn't able to research the topic, like I was. Which was pretty crazy, <g> I read everything I could get my hands on. But, he had to be out working. He was only getting bits and pieces from me. So it took him a bit longer to see the light.
I would print out posts from this list and the unschooling.com message board (which isn't going to help us now) and say, "oh, you gotta read this, its great" Not in a lecturing way but in a more excited way. Cuz it is so exciting. :)
I also had to watch how I reacted to him when he was doing something in a not so gentle way. He pointed out to me that I was really being understanding with the kids but I was completely different with him. hmmmmmmmmmm It really made me think. So I modeled the behavior and its been great ever since. He now comes to me with things and says, "can you believe how silly this is" usually mainstream thinking.
Kelli~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
For me I had to realize that my dh wasn't able to research the topic, like I was. Which was pretty crazy, <g> I read everything I could get my hands on. But, he had to be out working. He was only getting bits and pieces from me. So it took him a bit longer to see the light.
I would print out posts from this list and the unschooling.com message board (which isn't going to help us now) and say, "oh, you gotta read this, its great" Not in a lecturing way but in a more excited way. Cuz it is so exciting. :)
I also had to watch how I reacted to him when he was doing something in a not so gentle way. He pointed out to me that I was really being understanding with the kids but I was completely different with him. hmmmmmmmmmm It really made me think. So I modeled the behavior and its been great ever since. He now comes to me with things and says, "can you believe how silly this is" usually mainstream thinking.
Kelli~
---------------------------------
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Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Game-Enthusiast
My girls are very small. (were below 1% last time I actually took them to a
well child check, years ago and I suspect still) I actually stopped taking
them for well child checks when they were quite small because I would bring
in these beautiful healthy girls and the doctors (several different ones)
couldn't see past the growth chart. They kept looking for something wrong
despite the fact that I told them that dh's growth chart matched theirs
almost exactly. (he was a first child and his mom kept track) If you feel
in your heart that your child is healthy, despite his size, then don't base
any of your life decisions on that. I knew there wasn't anything wrong with
my kids in my heart. They asked us to have several different tests
performed on at least one of them, including a scope to see if she was
getting nutrients out of her food. Would you EVER put a child through a
scope who seemed perfectly healthy except was small for her size. Crazy!
They even called me at home to encourage/push it. I told them I thought
they were asking only to cover their butts so they wouldn't be sued later
on. The doctor said, "we have to." I told them my child was perfectly
healthy and I wouldn't put her through that.
The TV issue. All the studies done on TV have been done on school children.
Also , which comes first, the chicken or the egg? The TV viewing habit or
the need to escape from life? It's just not applicable to unschoolers who
have so many more hours in the day to interact with their family and
friends.
My dh, bless his heart, LOL, has followed my example in parenting as it's
changed, albeit a little slower. It's been wonderful to watch him change
too. It isn't often that I am impatient and it used to be that if I were
impatient, he was too, but worse. (fed off mine, I guess) But more often
now, if I am impatient, he comes to the rescue and sooths the child that
needs it and sets things right again.
Also, you might recommend the book "Punished By Rewards" by Alfie Kohn to
her.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
well child check, years ago and I suspect still) I actually stopped taking
them for well child checks when they were quite small because I would bring
in these beautiful healthy girls and the doctors (several different ones)
couldn't see past the growth chart. They kept looking for something wrong
despite the fact that I told them that dh's growth chart matched theirs
almost exactly. (he was a first child and his mom kept track) If you feel
in your heart that your child is healthy, despite his size, then don't base
any of your life decisions on that. I knew there wasn't anything wrong with
my kids in my heart. They asked us to have several different tests
performed on at least one of them, including a scope to see if she was
getting nutrients out of her food. Would you EVER put a child through a
scope who seemed perfectly healthy except was small for her size. Crazy!
They even called me at home to encourage/push it. I told them I thought
they were asking only to cover their butts so they wouldn't be sued later
on. The doctor said, "we have to." I told them my child was perfectly
healthy and I wouldn't put her through that.
The TV issue. All the studies done on TV have been done on school children.
Also , which comes first, the chicken or the egg? The TV viewing habit or
the need to escape from life? It's just not applicable to unschoolers who
have so many more hours in the day to interact with their family and
friends.
My dh, bless his heart, LOL, has followed my example in parenting as it's
changed, albeit a little slower. It's been wonderful to watch him change
too. It isn't often that I am impatient and it used to be that if I were
impatient, he was too, but worse. (fed off mine, I guess) But more often
now, if I am impatient, he comes to the rescue and sooths the child that
needs it and sets things right again.
Also, you might recommend the book "Punished By Rewards" by Alfie Kohn to
her.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Johnson
>>>>>Taking away the TV entirely is possibly the most dopey punishment for arestricted and limited household - by all means make sure that you give your
kid even more unoccupied time to get into what you might consider mischief.
Funny, she says that tv is a priviledge not a right. She limits her child
to 2 30 minute shows that she must choose at the start of the day. She
frequently loses this priviledge for totally unrelated things. For this
time she told me that dd had consquences for a behavior that made her lose
tv. I said, oh she did something to the tv? "No, but I couldn't think of
any natural consquences for what she did".
My friend says the she wants her child to be well rounded and that sitting
in front of the tv for hours on end will not do that. The thing is I have
two friends, well actually everyone I know limits tv to a certain extent.
And their kids are totally glued to it when it is on. They are zombies. My
son puts in on and then would rather play. It is so obvious to me that it
is because they limit the tv, but they don't see that. That only reinforces
their belief that tv is bad. But, yet it is a priviledge. To me, calling
tv a priviledge elevates it to something wonderful, yet forbidden. Tv is
just tv, another thing to do among many. I asked her if she thinks my ds
sits in front of the tv all day long. She said well I hope not, but I don't
know what he is doing while you are starting a business and busy around the
house so much----personal jab, foul!!!!
>>>> I hope I can watch old movies on TCM again one day. Sigh.Ben knows Doris Day, Rock Hudson, Audrey Hepburn and Cary Grant on sight. I
was getting Pillow Talk from the library and he was singing the song. I
also love old 60's - 70's sit coms. I bought a copy of That Girl, my all
time favorite, and Ben loves to watch that at night when we fall asleep. He
also likes Bob Newhart.
>>>If you have an Ectopmorph, they will probably always be thin, graze a lotall day rather than eat a few substantial meals, and do well with small
portions all their life (lucky them).
He was tiny since birth, he was born at 32 weeks, and only weighed 2.5
pounds. Weight has been such an issue since he was a baby. It plagued us
with the drs. since I was breastfeeding (after 3 months of pumping). They
wanted me to supplement, even though he was growing along his curve. Except
for a dip when he had pneumonia. It's hard to let go of that when so much
of his first few month were focused on size and weight. He is small for his
age now, but healthy. He would rather play than eat. He definetly grazes
and so do I. Dh is working during typical lunch and dinner hours, so we are
on our own during the week.
>>>Perhaps your friend is defensive because your child is happy and thrivingand yet you are relaxed, lenient and connected to your kid. \
Exactly, this started when she called me for advice on her 6 month old not
sleeping and wanting to nurse.
I'm a LLL leader and she wanted to know how I could get her baby to not want
to nurse all night. I said it was just the way it was, her daughter has
some intense needs right now. You can either meet her needs or not. She
says CIO is not an option (sigh of relief). I then suggested some coping
skills for her lack of sleep and exhaustion. The first being letting go of
expectations (there's that word again) and just approaching each day as it
comes. A few days of her dd4 watching a little more tv than usual won't
hurt. The house not being cleaned, her daughter not having a playdate or
activity every day. Short term solutions for a short term problem. She is
really tired almost exhausted, yet runs around like crazy planning
activities and every waking minute of their lives. And yes, I offered to
take dd with me for the day. She really likes me and loves to come to my
house, I'm her "girlfriend".
The thing is that when she does see my ds, he tends to not react positively
around her. He is not what I would call the poster child for relaxed and
respectful parenting when he's around certain people. I think he really
senses her negative vibe.
This all came about when she was pregnant. She said she really need to
"tightened the reins" on dd4. DD4 has been in daycare since she was 4
months old. She is staying home a year and a half with her new baby. Her
dd also has food issues (as the rest of the family) she is overweight and
obsessed with food. So, my df is very controling about that too. So, now
her dd sneaks food and hides it in her room and has started lying. Then she
calls me and asks what to do. Duh, again, so obvious. I mentioned in a
later conversation, not focused on her dd, just that I had "read an article
or discussion" that was saying something about when parents have many
controls over their children, it can bring on sneaky or decietful behavior.
I found this to be a good way to bring up things that she may not be ready
to hear directly.
It is hard. We had a heated exchange and I didn't expect to hear from her
for a while. I didn't realize until later than she got very personal with
some of her comments. I tried to stay more general. She also ended up
saying "I was calling to get LLL advice. I can't believe that you telling
me to let dd watch more tv is what another league leader would say." I said
that "what I told you was to that often letting go of expectations about how
things should be can help you cope with the stress of the demands of an
infant during a high needs period." The tv thing evolved out of the What do
I do with my other child while I'm resting all day? question.
But, she did call to invite me along to evacuate to GA with her and her kids
for the storm. Hhmmm, deadly hurricane or days on end of constant stress
and negativity. Tough choice. I wish I had some more like minded people
here. I'm always looking out for them. I have a good homeschool group,
some are unschoolers or relaxed, but most are really into limiting food
choices, tv, media, commercialism etc... very hippy, earthy crunchy. So,
that component is missing.
>>>Hope someone helps with the dad component. I'm very lucky in my dh.My dh is great and is moving along at a slower pace. He was closer to this
than I was some time back. But, is very interested in the whole concept. I
relay things I have read here and online, and we talk about it. He has
noticed that I am much more relaxed about many things now and likes it.
Laura J
averyschmidt
> I'm having an extensive debate with a friend over some issues, oneof which is television viewing. She has found numerous resources to
back up the limiting of television watching in children. I'd like
some for letting kids watch as much as they choose.
My favorite pro-television book is Teleliteracy by David Bianculli.
It has a chapter debunking the myths about children and tv. I don't
think he exactly advocates unlimited access, but it's still a pretty
good antidote to, say, The Plug In Drug.
>She kept calling it consequences and did not like it when I said itIt's exactly the same thing as punishment but at the same time
>was a punishment. "No, we don't punish, we have consequences."
> I said it is the same thing. She just didn't like the word.
manipulates children into thinking that they chose to punish
themselves.
"Discipline" books and articles often lump together logical and
natural consequences but I don't think they are the same thing at
all. Natural consequences can sometimes be just that, but "logical"
consequences are carried out by someone on purpose.
For example, take a toddler writing on the wall. The natural
consequence is that now there's writing on the wall, which may or
may not be a big deal depending on which wall, how much clean walls
are valued, and whether the marker is washable. Mabye someone (the
parent?) will decide to touch up the paint over the drawing and at
the same time help the child find a better place to draw.
A supposedly "logical" consequence would be, for example, taking the
child's markers away. Punishment, IMO.
Alfie Kohn illustrates the difference very well in his book Beyond
Discipline: From Compliance to Community. He calls logical
consequences "punishment lite" and jokes about how adults can still
control their child externally but without having to feel like the
bad guy, which is why the word "consequence" is preferred by people
like your friend.
I hope those two books help. :-)
Patti
TreeGoddess
On Sep 11, 2004, at 6:09 AM, Kelli Traaseth wrote:
months, I was in the car talking with DH and he said something about
math curriculum and I looked at him like "what?!?" I told him that we
were not going to use ANY curriculum and then he looked at me like I'd
gone completely mad. LOL We were confused about the other's stance
for a few minutes until it dawned on me that DH wasn't on this list or
reading Sandra's site and everything else that I was doing. DUH!
I laughed and told him that I was sorry for assuming that he had this
info. We are usually soooo connected on a mental level that sometimes
I think that we could communicate by brain osmosis while sleeping. LOL
I gave him the general ideas behind unschooling and when we got home I
forwarded him saved posts and links to different sites. He got it
right away and then laughed about the look I gave him when he mentioned
a curriculum.
Long story short . . . ditto what Kelli said. Send your DH links,
great posts, things that really clicked for you and let him make the
connections himself. :)
-Tracy-
> [For me I had to realize that my dh wasn't able to researchYes, I learned that too. LOL After being on this list for a couple of
> the topic, like I was. Which was pretty crazy, <g> I read
> everything I could get my hands on. But, he had to be out
> working. He was only getting bits and pieces from me. So
> it took him a bit longer to see the light.]
months, I was in the car talking with DH and he said something about
math curriculum and I looked at him like "what?!?" I told him that we
were not going to use ANY curriculum and then he looked at me like I'd
gone completely mad. LOL We were confused about the other's stance
for a few minutes until it dawned on me that DH wasn't on this list or
reading Sandra's site and everything else that I was doing. DUH!
I laughed and told him that I was sorry for assuming that he had this
info. We are usually soooo connected on a mental level that sometimes
I think that we could communicate by brain osmosis while sleeping. LOL
I gave him the general ideas behind unschooling and when we got home I
forwarded him saved posts and links to different sites. He got it
right away and then laughed about the look I gave him when he mentioned
a curriculum.
Long story short . . . ditto what Kelli said. Send your DH links,
great posts, things that really clicked for you and let him make the
connections himself. :)
-Tracy-
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], "Laura Johnson"
<lauraj2@v...> wrote:
of the reactions listed! http://eqi.org/tgordon3.htm
I've used it as a base to tell people that
punishment/consequences/negative emotions failed miserably for us and
I'm happy to have found another way that works much better. This
gives people an out to say "well, it's fine for you, but it wouldn't
work for us." For most people, I'm not going to change their minds
and don't have any desire to waste my time debating. I prefer to
sneakily live well and model a better way of doing things. ;-)
wanted dh to just "get over himself" but now I think for our family,
it's better to go a little more slowly and have dh on board or at
least not resisting quite so hard.
My dh is incredibly resistant to reading things I ask him to read, so
I've had to take different tactics. I talk about some new concept
like letting the kids eat what they want and how at first it sounded
weird to me, but why I decided I wanted to try it and how well it's
working. I think that validates his doubts about it. He sees how much
better things are and I make a big deal about what I did differently
and how it turned out. If I leave some reading material on the dining
room table or in the bathroom, he sometimes reads a little. Whatever
works...
Unschooling and mindful parenting are just so different from anything
my dh has ever seen or heard of before. It's more than 180 degrees,
it's in a different plane.
--aj, mama to two happy kids watching Thomas on the PBS Kids channel
(when did they start that??)
<lauraj2@v...> wrote:
>We are also having issues over the no-punishment thing and could useThis page really struck home with me. I remembered having almost all
>some good resources for that as well.
of the reactions listed! http://eqi.org/tgordon3.htm
I've used it as a base to tell people that
punishment/consequences/negative emotions failed miserably for us and
I'm happy to have found another way that works much better. This
gives people an out to say "well, it's fine for you, but it wouldn't
work for us." For most people, I'm not going to change their minds
and don't have any desire to waste my time debating. I prefer to
sneakily live well and model a better way of doing things. ;-)
> Another thing, I have noticed that dh seems to be tightening theI've had to slow down a little. At first I didn't like that and
>controls as I am loosening. Is this typical? I do like getting to
>be the one who says yes more often now. He has noticed that he is
>feeling the need to say no more and is not really sure why. He is
>very aware of it and agreed when I mentioned it to him. How have
>other families dealt with parents coming to this at a different pace?
wanted dh to just "get over himself" but now I think for our family,
it's better to go a little more slowly and have dh on board or at
least not resisting quite so hard.
My dh is incredibly resistant to reading things I ask him to read, so
I've had to take different tactics. I talk about some new concept
like letting the kids eat what they want and how at first it sounded
weird to me, but why I decided I wanted to try it and how well it's
working. I think that validates his doubts about it. He sees how much
better things are and I make a big deal about what I did differently
and how it turned out. If I leave some reading material on the dining
room table or in the bathroom, he sometimes reads a little. Whatever
works...
Unschooling and mindful parenting are just so different from anything
my dh has ever seen or heard of before. It's more than 180 degrees,
it's in a different plane.
--aj, mama to two happy kids watching Thomas on the PBS Kids channel
(when did they start that??)
nellebelle
>>>>The food thing is hard with a child in the 5% growth chart>>>>>Somebody has to be in the 5th percentile. That's what a curve is. It takes
all the measurements and spreads them out over 100%. It is comparing your
kid to others, not to their self.
Mary Ellen
Robyn Coburn
<<<<Funny, she says that tv is a priviledge not a right. >>>>
Spending ones life trying to quantify everything into privileges or rights
is way too much hard work. And then to have to remember and enforce this
idea - phew! So food is a right - but not all foodstuffs. Fresh air is a
right - but not unlimited free time to play outdoors - or during the school
day. A child has a right to love, but it can be withdrawn if they behave in
certain negative ways. On and on, and it can get really painful.
Also, as you suggest below, it creates the idea that the things the little
girl has a right to are somehow less fun, less enjoyable - more along the
lines of duties - than the good stuff which are categorized as privileges.
That is an unfortunate strategy that will likely make her dislike her
metaphorical and actual vegetables just on principle.
I try to reduce the areas where there could be conflicts in my household. I
don't think I ever spend a single second considering the idea that something
is a privilege for Jayn to enjoy. I do think that I am privileged to have
this little wonder as my child.
<<<She limits her child
to 2 30 minute shows that she must choose at the start of the day. She
frequently loses this priviledge for totally unrelated things.
.............My friend says the she wants her child to be well rounded and
that sitting
in front of the tv for hours on end will not do that. The thing is I have
two friends, well actually everyone I know limits tv to a certain extent.
And their kids are totally glued to it when it is on. They are zombies.
.............To me, calling
tv a priviledge elevates it to something wonderful, yet forbidden. Tv is
just tv, another thing to do among many. >>>>>
Same old horsehockey - she sees only two options - well rounded kids or tv
viewers. I agree with the Zombie thing - I see it only in TV limited kids.
<<<< I asked her if she thinks my ds
sits in front of the tv all day long. She said well I hope not, but I don't
know what he is doing while you are starting a business and busy around the
house so much----personal jab, foul!!!!>>>>
You're not wrong - she is being backhandedly rude to you (if defense doesn't
work, attack). It seems that you do have a voluntary obligation as a LLL
leader to take her calls, and do all you can to help her. I still feel that
she is likely to choose to reduce her contact with you and others who may
challenge her assumptions.
<<<<says CIO is not an option (sigh of relief).>>>>
Is this a code word for formula? Or what does it stand for?
<<<<The thing is that when she does see my ds, he tends to not react
positively
around her. He is not what I would call the poster child for relaxed and
respectful parenting when he's around certain people. I think he really
senses her negative vibe.>>>>
Are you meaning the dd4 or the mother in this when you say "her"? Sorry I'm
not quite clear. If it is the little girl, it could be that he has a hard
time sharing you with someone who is that needy - a restricted, day-care
baby, living-with-criticism little girl could be much needier but has to
express it in acting-out ways because she is getting negative feedback for
just asking for stuff. That book I mentioned (It's not fair...etc) has a lot
about coping/allowing children to go safely through their process of
transitioning from school or day care back to the home environment. Again I
mention this as something that your friend might appreciate, not as a
general Unschooling book.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Spending ones life trying to quantify everything into privileges or rights
is way too much hard work. And then to have to remember and enforce this
idea - phew! So food is a right - but not all foodstuffs. Fresh air is a
right - but not unlimited free time to play outdoors - or during the school
day. A child has a right to love, but it can be withdrawn if they behave in
certain negative ways. On and on, and it can get really painful.
Also, as you suggest below, it creates the idea that the things the little
girl has a right to are somehow less fun, less enjoyable - more along the
lines of duties - than the good stuff which are categorized as privileges.
That is an unfortunate strategy that will likely make her dislike her
metaphorical and actual vegetables just on principle.
I try to reduce the areas where there could be conflicts in my household. I
don't think I ever spend a single second considering the idea that something
is a privilege for Jayn to enjoy. I do think that I am privileged to have
this little wonder as my child.
<<<She limits her child
to 2 30 minute shows that she must choose at the start of the day. She
frequently loses this priviledge for totally unrelated things.
.............My friend says the she wants her child to be well rounded and
that sitting
in front of the tv for hours on end will not do that. The thing is I have
two friends, well actually everyone I know limits tv to a certain extent.
And their kids are totally glued to it when it is on. They are zombies.
.............To me, calling
tv a priviledge elevates it to something wonderful, yet forbidden. Tv is
just tv, another thing to do among many. >>>>>
Same old horsehockey - she sees only two options - well rounded kids or tv
viewers. I agree with the Zombie thing - I see it only in TV limited kids.
<<<< I asked her if she thinks my ds
sits in front of the tv all day long. She said well I hope not, but I don't
know what he is doing while you are starting a business and busy around the
house so much----personal jab, foul!!!!>>>>
You're not wrong - she is being backhandedly rude to you (if defense doesn't
work, attack). It seems that you do have a voluntary obligation as a LLL
leader to take her calls, and do all you can to help her. I still feel that
she is likely to choose to reduce her contact with you and others who may
challenge her assumptions.
<<<<says CIO is not an option (sigh of relief).>>>>
Is this a code word for formula? Or what does it stand for?
<<<<The thing is that when she does see my ds, he tends to not react
positively
around her. He is not what I would call the poster child for relaxed and
respectful parenting when he's around certain people. I think he really
senses her negative vibe.>>>>
Are you meaning the dd4 or the mother in this when you say "her"? Sorry I'm
not quite clear. If it is the little girl, it could be that he has a hard
time sharing you with someone who is that needy - a restricted, day-care
baby, living-with-criticism little girl could be much needier but has to
express it in acting-out ways because she is getting negative feedback for
just asking for stuff. That book I mentioned (It's not fair...etc) has a lot
about coping/allowing children to go safely through their process of
transitioning from school or day care back to the home environment. Again I
mention this as something that your friend might appreciate, not as a
general Unschooling book.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Dawn Adams
>>>>The food thing is hard with a child in the 5% growth chart>>>>>Somebody has to be in the 5th percentile. That's what a curve is. It takes
all the measurements and spreads them out over 100%. It is comparing your
kid to others, not to their self.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.And...if your child is in the 5th percentile, your child IS on the chart. The chart measures the range of NORMAL growth soooo...A child in the 5th percentile is perfectly normal and there is no reason to be concerned about their diet. Of course lots of doctors don't seem to get this.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], "nellebelle" <nellebelle@c...> wrote:
I'm a solid 5'2" now but I was 4'7" at 14. My brother graduated from high school (17 yrs
old) at 4'11" and is now 5'6".
The biggest disservice to my well-being was the constant focus on my growth and height.
I don't know if the person above is referring to weight and is worried about malnutrition.
But if the child is eating according to appetite, then it seems to me that most kids will
grow accordingly, even if they turn out short.
Julie
> >>>>The food thing is hard with a child in the 5% growth chart>>>>>That was me.
>
> Somebody has to be in the 5th percentile. That's what a curve is. It takes
> all the measurements and spreads them out over 100%. It is comparing your
> kid to others, not to their self.
>
I'm a solid 5'2" now but I was 4'7" at 14. My brother graduated from high school (17 yrs
old) at 4'11" and is now 5'6".
The biggest disservice to my well-being was the constant focus on my growth and height.
I don't know if the person above is referring to weight and is worried about malnutrition.
But if the child is eating according to appetite, then it seems to me that most kids will
grow accordingly, even if they turn out short.
Julie
diana jenner
********************************
by all means make sure that you give your kid even more unoccupied time to
get into what you might consider mischief.
********************************
Oooooh, I could almost laugh at this comment after last night... If it
didn't make me want to bawl :''''''(
Hayden had the melt down of all melt downs last night, which led to a
complete mommy meltdown (I feel I'm living the definition of insanity: doing
the same things over and over, expecting a different result each time)...
Consequences! *they* tell me. What consequences?? I ask. Take away
everything! *they* say. And what, I ask, does that leave him with but plenty
of opportunity to make life miserable?? <silence> from *them*
I just know that SOMETHING has to change... and I know it's ME. It's really
NOT fun to be Hayden in those moments, it cannot feel good to be so
completely miserable and hopeless (because David ordered the 'wrong' kind of
pizza on a day where NOTHING was in sync in the first place)...
So today while things are calm, we're going to start their day with peace
circle: light a candle, say our blessing (It is a blessing to be; it is a
blessing to be here; it is a blessing to be here now; it is a blessing to be
here now, together), and open discussion for family peace. I WILL create a
place where conversations happen safely, where change/peace can begin, where
my kids have the input on how to make these situations better, where *they*
cannot contribute their opinions.
I listened to Peaceful Parenting again ... I'm getting good at realizing
what I'm practicing by realizing which emotions I'm giving the most exercise
to ~ joy and wonder are welcome back into our house today :)
~diana :)
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by all means make sure that you give your kid even more unoccupied time to
get into what you might consider mischief.
********************************
Oooooh, I could almost laugh at this comment after last night... If it
didn't make me want to bawl :''''''(
Hayden had the melt down of all melt downs last night, which led to a
complete mommy meltdown (I feel I'm living the definition of insanity: doing
the same things over and over, expecting a different result each time)...
Consequences! *they* tell me. What consequences?? I ask. Take away
everything! *they* say. And what, I ask, does that leave him with but plenty
of opportunity to make life miserable?? <silence> from *them*
I just know that SOMETHING has to change... and I know it's ME. It's really
NOT fun to be Hayden in those moments, it cannot feel good to be so
completely miserable and hopeless (because David ordered the 'wrong' kind of
pizza on a day where NOTHING was in sync in the first place)...
So today while things are calm, we're going to start their day with peace
circle: light a candle, say our blessing (It is a blessing to be; it is a
blessing to be here; it is a blessing to be here now; it is a blessing to be
here now, together), and open discussion for family peace. I WILL create a
place where conversations happen safely, where change/peace can begin, where
my kids have the input on how to make these situations better, where *they*
cannot contribute their opinions.
I listened to Peaceful Parenting again ... I'm getting good at realizing
what I'm practicing by realizing which emotions I'm giving the most exercise
to ~ joy and wonder are welcome back into our house today :)
~diana :)
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<So today while things are calm, we're going to start their day with
peace circle: light a candle, say our blessing (It is a blessing to be; it
is a blessing to be here; it is a blessing to be here now; it is a blessing
to be here now, together), and open discussion for family peace. I WILL
create a place where conversations happen safely, where change/peace can
begin, where my kids have the input on how to make these situations better,
where *they* cannot contribute their opinions.>>>>
This is a really nice blessing ritual.
It always amazes me how one day can be so horrible, with grumps and
arguments and meltdowns, and the next day after a nice sleep life can go
back to being wonderful and full of joyous play and mutual co-operation.
A custom that we have is to tell each other what we are grateful for before
eating a family meal. Jayn always says she grateful "for a lovely family"
before anything else.
Robyn L. Coburn
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peace circle: light a candle, say our blessing (It is a blessing to be; it
is a blessing to be here; it is a blessing to be here now; it is a blessing
to be here now, together), and open discussion for family peace. I WILL
create a place where conversations happen safely, where change/peace can
begin, where my kids have the input on how to make these situations better,
where *they* cannot contribute their opinions.>>>>
This is a really nice blessing ritual.
It always amazes me how one day can be so horrible, with grumps and
arguments and meltdowns, and the next day after a nice sleep life can go
back to being wonderful and full of joyous play and mutual co-operation.
A custom that we have is to tell each other what we are grateful for before
eating a family meal. Jayn always says she grateful "for a lovely family"
before anything else.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Julie Bogart
I don't know who said the original quote here in Robyn's post but I LOVE it. I want to do
this with my family.
Robyn, we say thanks before meals too but I like how you do it. Beautful.
We sometimes have a 30 minute candlelight where everyone is quiet for all thrity minutes.
No electronics, no conversation. We all stay downstairs and read or color or look at
pictures. Often we end up in the same room.
I suggest it when I feel we've become too "noisy" and unreflective. It's not imposed and it's
not every day. But even the kids ask for it occasionally because it' so especially nice to be
together and quiet at the same time. It occurs more frequently in winter, it seems.
Julie B
this with my family.
Robyn, we say thanks before meals too but I like how you do it. Beautful.
We sometimes have a 30 minute candlelight where everyone is quiet for all thrity minutes.
No electronics, no conversation. We all stay downstairs and read or color or look at
pictures. Often we end up in the same room.
I suggest it when I feel we've become too "noisy" and unreflective. It's not imposed and it's
not every day. But even the kids ask for it occasionally because it' so especially nice to be
together and quiet at the same time. It occurs more frequently in winter, it seems.
Julie B
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@c...> wrote:
> <<<<So today while things are calm, we're going to start their day with
> peace circle: light a candle, say our blessing (It is a blessing to be; it
> is a blessing to be here; it is a blessing to be here now; it is a blessing
> to be here now, together), and open discussion for family peace. I WILL
> create a place where conversations happen safely, where change/peace can
> begin, where my kids have the input on how to make these situations better,
> where *they* cannot contribute their opinions.>>>>
>
> This is a really nice blessing ritual.
>
> It always amazes me how one day can be so horrible, with grumps and
> arguments and meltdowns, and the next day after a nice sleep life can go
> back to being wonderful and full of joyous play and mutual co-operation.
>
> A custom that we have is to tell each other what we are grateful for before
> eating a family meal. Jayn always says she grateful "for a lovely family"
> before anything else.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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