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In a message dated 9/9/04 10:33:33 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< Letting go of "expectations" helps, I think. >>

I agree deeply.

But I need to apologize to Julie about one thing. I was pissed off before
she was, and posted without thinking long enough.

My Granny used to say sometimes "I expect so." She usually said "reckon so,"
which is still in common mainstream use in England, but not the U.S. If
someone asked if Papaw would be home before dinner, she might say "I expect he
will be" (emphasis on "will") or "I expect so."

Still, if she had said "I didn't expect you to bring me a present," I would
take it as sweet. If she had said, "I expect you to mop that floor," it
would've been the same as "I'm going to go do something else, and when I get back
that floor had better be mopped." There was an entire use of the word that
wasn't very negotiable. expect ya'll to clean them fish for dinner." The fish
would probably have
Z been cleaned by the person who was addressed.

The in between of those is someone saying to other moms without saying to her
kids "I expect my kids to..." In that case it's ambiguous enough that
different readers will see it as "reasonably hope" and others might have "or else"
memories stirred.

But even without specific memories, even in the most neutral of cases, to
expect something leads to either "I told you so" or a failure. Compliance (or
expectation meeting) is the mom getting her way. The kid gets his way by NOT
complying.

If this is too subtle a point to be worth pursuing, I'm willing to let it go
on by. If it gets discussed any more after early Friday morning, I'll be
gone five days anyway, and miss it.

Julie, I'm sorry I was so cranky about it.

Sandra

averyschmidt

> If this is too subtle a point to be worth pursuing, I'm willing to
let it go
> on by.

I know that I've annoyed people sometimes for tending to pursuit
subtle points.
But while things like the meaning of "expect" seem like little, nit-
picky things, I've found that for me, examining the little things
can actually have profound effects.
It's like a tiny pebble making bigger and bigger ripples.
(Or something.)

Here's another pet peeve of mine- someone disguising their needs as
someone else's.
It was done to me as a child and is *still* sometimes done to me by
my mother even as an adult. ("You need to call your brother.")

It's something I've had to work on- for example rather than saying
to my boisterous older boys "you need to be quiet now" I'll try to
remember to say "*I* need some quiet now" or even "your brother's
sleeping, could you please keep it down?"
That "you need" thing... YUCK.

Patti

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/9/04 12:27:02 PM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:

<< Here's another pet peeve of mine- someone disguising their needs as

someone else's.

It was done to me as a child and is *still* sometimes done to me by

my mother even as an adult. ("You need to call your brother.")

>>

I made a point like that about schools and kids (the other day, the other
week, in Peabody). Schools think their needs are your needs. They'll say "You
need to be in here on time," and "You need to finish your paper by Friday."
There's an implied "or else."

But on the other hand, I will remind my husband to call his mom. "You need
to send that card by Tuesday" [or else it will be there late]. It seems,
between us, to be less irritating than "Did you send the card yet?" Personal
situation. He knows that I know what he needs to do as regards his mom, but
asking over and over seems naggish.

Sandra

averyschmidt

> But on the other hand, I will remind my husband to call his
mom. "You need
> to send that card by Tuesday" [or else it will be there late]. It
seems,
> between us, to be less irritating than "Did you send the card
yet?" Personal
> situation. He knows that I know what he needs to do as regards
his mom, but
> asking over and over seems naggish.

After I posted I was thinking of situations where "you need" *isn't*
annoying, and it's when it's genuine and informational rather than a
blurring of who owns the need.

My husband was helping me learn to surf this summer (my husband and
sons surf and I figured joining them would be more fun than always
being the spectator) and he'd say things like "you need to catch the
wave first before you try to stand up."
It's a subtle difference, sort of like the expectations thing.

Patti

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In a message dated 9/9/04 2:22:39 PM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:

<< After I posted I was thinking of situations where "you need" *isn't*

annoying, and it's when it's genuine and informational rather than a

blurring of who owns the need. >>

I will remind kids to eat, and if they're planning to leave the house without
me on some exciting outing, I might say "You need to eat before you go."

It doesn't mean I want them to eat to make me feel better. It means they
might not have realized how long they'll be gone and that they're going away
from food, not toward it.

Or I might say "grab some food" or I might put some food in a bag for all of
whoever's going to share on the way.

Sandra

Beth

Patti wrote: <<<That "you need" thing... YUCK>>>

Ohhhhhh boy. I just realized I use this with my kids way too often. I
never ever thought about it in the context you described.

I learned it, amusingly enough, when I was in college, majoring in
elementary education, volunteering with children at a low income housing
after-school project. The teachers in charge of the program trained all of
us (helpers) to say "You need to" at the beginning of every request made to
the children. They told us by making whatever we wanted into a need for the
child, we were more likely to get compliance from them. When I read your
email I had a lightbulb moment. I don't want my kids to automatically
comply with anyone, so why do I use this phrase with them? Habit I guess.
A bad one that needs to be broken.

Urgh. You've just given me a LOT to think about. Thank you.

Beth

averyschmidt

> The teachers in charge of the program trained all of
> us (helpers) to say "You need to" at the beginning of every
request made to
> the children. They told us by making whatever we wanted into a
need for the
> child, we were more likely to get compliance from them.

Yup. I had preschool experience myself before having my own
children, and it's a very common manipulative tactic. Mabye that's
where my own anti-"you need" seed was planted.

Patti

Carmen McFarlin

I've found myself starting sentences with "I need you to..." and
then I'll stop and think, "Do I? Really?" Maybe it's more of an "I
would really like it if you..."? I do try to distinguish exactly
who has the need/want, but then I get all caught up with trying to
determine whose need is most important, and why, and how to meet
everyones need while still respecting boundaries...sigh...and then I
just feel stupid and trapped by my own psychosis;) My children are
very young (5, 2, and 15 months) and so I struggle with guiding
them, modeling behavior for them and then outright telling them WHAT
IS BEST (ha). "I need to change your diaper", "I need to wipe your
nose", "I need you to help me carry the library books..." But there
are many times when my needs and their needs are polar opposites.
They need to have hands free to pick up leaves and sticks and bugs
along the library sidewalk. They need to finish stacking blocks and
don't care that their diaper is giving off clouds of green gas. And
a runny nose? Well, they need to own their face and lick off that
snot. It's theirs, isn't it?! See how I just run in circles with
all of this? I drive myself batty.

Carmen McFarlin
Austin, Texas

--- In [email protected], "averyschmidt"
<patti.schmidt2@v...> wrote:
> > The teachers in charge of the program trained all of
> > us (helpers) to say "You need to" at the beginning of every
> request made to
> > the children. They told us by making whatever we wanted into a
> need for the
> > child, we were more likely to get compliance from them.
>
> Yup. I had preschool experience myself before having my own
> children, and it's a very common manipulative tactic. Mabye
that's
> where my own anti-"you need" seed was planted.
>
> Patti

Fetteroll

on 9/10/04 1:42 AM, Carmen McFarlin at cemcfarlin@... wrote:

> "I need to wipe your
> nose", "I need you to help me carry the library books..."

How about "Can I wipe your nose for you?" and "Would you mind helping me
carry the books?"

And mean them as questions! :-) The answers can be no.

Joyce