Ali Kat

***Bedtime is a good thing, if it's time to go to bed because the house has gotten quiet and the children are sleepy.***

Okay, but what do I do when DD says �I�m not sleepy.� Her head is nodding, eyes are black, but she refuses to lie down or go to her room. She will stand to watch television so that she doesn�t fall asleep sitting, and will eat incessantly when tired. I have offered to tape the shows she likes so she can watch them when she�s more awake too. I just don�t know what to do.

***Crockpot from the morning? Take something out of the freezer you made twice as much of another day?***

I do this� still takes time to reheat and clean up afterwards. Perhaps I am just feeling overwhelmed and whiny. And sometimes I do need to be told. Sometimes I get overwhelmed and don�t have the ability to see the choices. I am newer to this than others, and I do need help and insight. I wouldn�t be here asking if I didn�t know that somewhere I am missing/needing something.

***Who told you you'll get maggots if you don't clean the plates and take out the garbage?***

No one told me. It is personal experience. We have flies and fruit flies. We don�t have air conditioning and leave the windows and doors open to get the cross breeze.

***flies have to lay eggs, and it takes a while for them to develop into maggots. More than a week, I think.***

It takes 8-20 hours. Again� personal experience. Recent example: DD left a cup of half-eaten soup in the living room. She had eaten it for lunch on Tuesday. Weds evening I went in search of the strange smell. The cup had writhing maggots inside and crawling up the edges. Sure, I can swat flies � but it only takes one fly seconds to lay a batch of eggs. Also � not being home all day doesn�t make it 100% possible for me to swat them all.

***And maggots only grow on rotting meat and such, not on plastic bags and paper.***

Our garbage isn�t just paper and plastic. It�s bones, foodstuff, etc� I wanted to compost the vegetable matter, but where I live I can�t because of the city�s restrictions on location of compost piles/heaps. I will just make a more concerted effort to grab it before I leave in the AM.

I haven�t moved completely into joyfully doing for everyone yet. Sometimes I feel unappreciated and overwhelmed - not directly by my daughter as much as by my mother. It does affect my daughter though, and part of why I am moving. I ask for help, and I get �I want to do this�� or �I don�t want to�� or �I�m busy�� I try to accept that, but it�s hard. There are things I would like to do too. I even get those responses to the request of �let�s talk while I do XYZ�.

I know some of it is a by-product living with my mother, and that definitely affects a lot of my attitude etc. I have begun the process of letting go of the idea that �I HAVE to do XYZ right now�� when I REALLY don�t, etc� There are still things to be done, and even if I don�t have to do it immediately � I do have to do most of it eventually. Do you know what I mean? I don�t mean to say that DD�s wants or needs are less important than mine, but I DO have needs and wants too. How does DD get her needs met adequately and I get mine? I am simply not home enough to do all the better things I want to do � which is terribly frustrating to me. I don�t know how to gain that equilibrium and experience that would facilitate a better unschooling and mindful-parenting environment.

***But if the mom's comfort level is the deciding factor, that's worth noting and admitting.***

Okay� If you are talking relationships though, is there room for some kind of equilibrium between child�s comfort and parent�s comfort? How does one facilitate this?


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[email protected]

-=- I haven’t moved completely into joyfully doing for everyone yet.
Sometimes I feel unappreciated and overwhelmed-=-

Me too. I get frustrated sometimes. But I used to get frustrated almost all
the time, and now it's just occasional. It's progress. <g>

<< Okay, but what do I do when DD says “I’m not sleepy.” Her head is
nodding, eyes are black, but she refuses to lie down or go to her room. >>

I would rock her or lie down with her and sing to her. Or make a comfortable
bed on the floor by the TV.

<< I have offered to tape the shows she likes so she can watch them when
she’s more awake too.>>

Tape it so if she falls asleep she can see the rest the next day. If she
watches the whole thing before she falls asleep, she won't need the tape. But
knowing it's being taped, she might not fight off sleep.

-=- ***Who told you you'll get maggots

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/9/2004 11:52:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sweetgypsiedncer@... writes:

***But if the mom's comfort level is the deciding factor, that's worth
noting and admitting.***

Okay… If you are talking relationships though, is there room for some kind
of equilibrium between child’s comfort and parent’s comfort? How does one
facilitate this?<<<<<


Time and Patience?

The first years are devoted to child-comfort. Just the way it works: they're
just not capable *enough*. Given plenty of child-comfort, it slowly moves to
mutual-comfort. Be nice enough <G>, and it might become parent-comfort! <BWG>

Pushing at any time (nagging) will probably backfire, and you'll end up
forcing or continuing with child-comfort with no "payback" in the end.

You reap what you sow.

With several young kids, you're sowing a LOOOONG time. But the reaping can
last a while too! <g>

Time and Patience.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<Okay, but what do I do when DD says “I’m not sleepy.” Her head is
nodding, eyes are black, but she refuses to lie down or go to her room. She
will stand to watch television so that she doesn’t fall asleep sitting, and
will eat incessantly when tired. I have offered to tape the shows she likes
so she can watch them when she’s more awake too. I just don’t know what to
do. >>>

I think you said in the last post that letting go of bedtimes was a fairly
recent change for your household. This is "de-bedtiming" behavior. She is
still learning to recognize her body's cues. Don't do anything other than
model going to bed when tired, and eating when hungry, and saying something
like, "You're looking pretty tired. Are you nearly ready to sleep?" It won't
last forever.

<<<Sometimes I get overwhelmed and don’t have the ability to see the
choices. I am newer to this than others, and I do need help and insight. I
wouldn’t be here asking if I didn’t know that somewhere I am missing/needing
something.>>>

Keep asking. Answering other people's questions often helps me focus my own
thoughts and journey, possibly more than it helps the questioner.

<<< No one told me. It is personal experience. We have flies and fruit
flies. We don’t have air conditioning and leave the windows and doors open
to get the cross breeze.>>>

IKWYM. Two words: Window screens.

<<<I know some of it is a by-product living with my mother, and that
definitely affects a lot of my attitude etc. I have begun the process of
letting go of the idea that “I HAVE to do XYZ right now…” when I REALLY
don’t, etc… There are still things to be done, and even if I don’t have to
do it immediately – I do have to do most of it eventually. Do you know what
I mean? >>>>

This "adults living in their mother's homes" seems to be a repeating theme
recently. It seems like most of the people sharing here and at U/B about
this are having trouble with their mothers (especially) undermining the new
lifestyle they are trying to create, or worse interfering negatively with
the parent/child relationship. I lived with my mother for a year when I
first came to the US (I was 31), and that was tough enough without a child
in the picture. Getting the old "tapes" out of our heads is extra tough when
the original installer is standing around still re-recording it. OTOH
sometimes the ridiculousness of it stands in sharp relief.

<<<< I don’t mean to say that DD’s wants or needs are less important than
mine, but I DO have needs and wants too. How does DD get her needs met
adequately and I get mine? I am simply not home enough to do all the better
things I want to do – which is terribly frustrating to me. I don’t know how
to gain that equilibrium and experience that would facilitate a better
unschooling and mindful-parenting environment.>>>>

Getting spiritual for a moment: sometimes (a lot of the time!) when we get
to a point of maximum twitchy discomfort with the current status quo, the
Universe sends us the opportunity to make a quantum change in our physical
circumstances. Keep your eyes open! Some fabulous new job or life situation
is probably right around the corner for you. Be ready to grab it!

Robyn L. Coburn

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Ann

Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:

I think you said in the last post that letting go of bedtimes was a fairly
recent change for your household. This is "de-bedtiming" behavior. She is
still learning to recognize her body's cues. Don't do anything other than
model going to bed when tired, and eating when hungry, and saying something
like, "You're looking pretty tired. Are you nearly ready to sleep?" It won't
last forever.

Okay, I'm trying to put together the whole concept of unschooling. I said in my introduction that I have a lot of unschooling to do; I realize that I need to correct myself and say that I have a lot of 'de-schooling' to do. This whole concept of de-bedtiming is very foreign to me. What is the advantage of not having a general bedtime? How is a bedtime harmful, or is it? I'm looking for new points of view.

Right now, the children usually go to bed somewhere between nine and ten o'clock. It is flexible, depending on what is happening in our family life. If it starts heading towards 10:30-11:00, I often send them to bed for one of these reasons. 1) They are on the verge of falling asleep or already have and I think they would be more comfortable. 2) I like a little time in the evenings alone with dh. 3) I am about to fall asleep, and I guess that i am dealing with a tape in my head that says a good mother puts her children to bed before going herself.

I have been trying to be more mindful of saying 'yes', and only say 'no' if I feel I HAVE to, it has been wonderful and is already bringing joy. Yesterday I was declared 'awesome' as a result of a simple yes. :0)

Ann





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AM Brown

We don't have 'bedtimes' (using that to mean a time decided upon by me the mom when everyone has to go to bed) because we just go to bed when we are tired. That might be 8pm or 1am. Usually closer to the latter. I want my children to learn to listen to their bodies for cues about being tired, hungry etc. They aren't tired just because I want some time with dh :) We have never had 'bedtimes' so there has never been any night time issues here. Again, we just go when we are tired.

Anna

> What is the advantage of not having a general bedtime? How is a bedtime harmful, or >is it? I'm looking for new points of view.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], Ann <ann_mv05@y...> wrote:

> Okay, I'm trying to put together the whole concept of unschooling. I said in my
introduction that I have a lot of unschooling to do; I realize that I need to correct myself
and say that I have a lot of 'de-schooling' to do. This whole concept of de-bedtiming is
very foreign to me. What is the advantage of not having a general bedtime? How is a
bedtime harmful, or is it? I'm looking for new points of view.

The main thing I see with bedtime issues have to do with control. When a bedtime is
arbitrary, the message is that parents will decide what is right for me and my input is
unwelcome.

In our house, we used to have bedtimes. Then we tried what was suggested on this list. We
didn't remove them (as in, "you can now stay up as late as you want."). we simply stopped
"enforcing" a bedtime. When my kids look tired, I will say, "Looks like you're tired. Let's get
to bed."

They stay up later now (usually they are up until 9:30 or 10:00 - my 8, 10 and 13 yr olds).
the teens stay up to whatever hour they choose.

But for the younger ones, we usually do point out that it's getting late or that they look
tired or that now is a good time for us to help them get ready, if they are wanting help. We
often simply help them get ready and then they stay up reading or playing quietly in their
rooms.

If any of them has a reason to stay up late (really into an X box game, or a movie), we
usually are fine with it. If there is a reason not to stay up late (we have a long drive the
next day, have to rise early to watch a meteor shower, are going to an amusement park all
day the next day), we will record on DVR the show they're watching and will remind them
of the next day's activity.

I see us as having a gentle bedtime, rather than no bedtime. We are courteous and we are
observant. We help them get ready and we support them in going to bed when they are
happy and ready to go.

I know it's working because now the kids will often come to me and say, "I'm really tired. I
want to go to bed now" and it might only be 8:30. That never happened with bedtimes.


>
> Right now, the children usually go to bed somewhere between nine and ten o'clock. It is
flexible, depending on what is happening in our family life. If it starts heading towards
10:30-11:00, I often send them to bed for one of these reasons. 1) They are on the verge
of falling asleep or already have and I think they would be more comfortable. 2) I like a
little time in the evenings alone with dh. 3) I am about to fall asleep, and I guess that i am
dealing with a tape in my head that says a good mother puts her children to bed before
going herself.

This is really pretty close to how we do it. The only difference I see is that I cop to those
reasons.

"Kids, we want some alone time. If you want us to help you get ready for bed, we're
available now."

or

"You're looking pretty exhausted. Want me to record your movie and help you get ready
for bed?"

or

"I'm feeling so tired myself. It makes me feel funny to think of you staying up later than
me. Do you mind playing in your room a bit while I go to bed? Or willyou mind putting
yourself to bed if I'm already in bed?"

It's all a matter of talking openly. That's what is missing in the "bedtime." No conversation
and mutuality.

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/9/04 8:49:46 PM, julie@... writes:

<< This whole concept of de-bedtiming is

very foreign to me. What is the advantage of not having a general bedtime?
How is a

bedtime harmful, or is it? >>

All that is totally an add on. FIRST get the unschooling itself, and then
consider other changes. Really. Some people just throw out their rules and
aren't really sure why and don't yet believe their kids will learn how to read
on their own. At that point, they're sabotaging their success.

Here's a "how important is it" page, and I'll add more as it comes along
(unless it comes along in the next five days when I'm gone):

http://sandradodd.com/chore/option

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

<<<<Right now, the children usually go to bed somewhere between nine and ten
o'clock. It is flexible, depending on what is happening in our family life.
If it starts heading towards 10:30-11:00, I often send them to bed for one
of these reasons. 1) They are on the verge of falling asleep or already have
and I think they would be more comfortable. 2) I like a little time in the
evenings alone with dh. 3) I am about to fall asleep, and I guess that i am
dealing with a tape in my head that says a good mother puts her children to
bed before going herself.>>>>

James and I get our alone time in the mornings before Jayn gets up, unless
he is going off to work very early (shifting schedule of call times). We
have pretty much given up the idea that we will have much of it while Jayn
is young. Some of best conversations are by phone.

The way that Jayn sleeps that is the most comfortable for me (no nursing) is
when she falls asleep of her own accord on the sofa, and I then carry her in
to bed. Rarely she snoozes on her bean bag chair. She has never been a sleep
on the floor type of kid. I don't think I'll be able to lift her up for that
much longer actually, so she may sleep on the sofa more often.

I want to put out the suggestion that if we have a tape in our head, that is
as specific as you have mentioned, try hearing the tape and then adding the
cheerful words "or not".

For example: "a good mother puts her children to bed before going herself,
or not."

Also: "A good mother puts her children to bed, or not."

Anyone got any others? This could be fun.

<<<<I have been trying to be more mindful of saying 'yes', and only say 'no'
if I feel I HAVE to, it has been wonderful and is already bringing joy.
Yesterday I was declared 'awesome' as a result of a simple yes. :0)>>>

Great stuff. Keep examining those "HAVE tos". Unusual solutions for any
dilemmas always available here.

Robyn L. Coburn

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nellebelle

> Also: "A good mother puts her children to bed, or not."
> > Anyone got any others? This could be fun.>>>

A good mother feeds her children only wholesome, fresh, made from scratch
foods, or not.

Mary Ellen

Seth W Bartels

this reminds me of something i've been struggling with since erasing my
food restrictions. i wasn't super strict about anything previously (or
so it seems now), what i was *requiring* was their presence at the table
for mealtimes, food to stay in *appropriate* places, and healthy food
before treats. now i let them snack more between meals, eat on the floor
in front of the glorious boob tube and eat flan for breakfast and
chocolate chips for snacks occasionally, and clean up when they spill
somewhere i'd rather they hadn't. and it feels pretty darned good. :)

i am worried about the whole healthy food deal. it was hard enough
before to get my kids to eat what i make. we're vegetarian (mostly
vegan) and it feels like balancing foods makes sense so they don't end up
without what they need as healthy growing kiddos...not that you shouldn't
balance meals if you're omni. but anyhow, i'm not a freak about
measuring quantities or anything (far from it), but i worry about not
eating enough veggies (they've got the grains, legumes, and fruits down
fine.) i'm trying to simplify and have them just snacking whenever
they're hungry. also considering just limiting the junk food we have in
the house and having good veggie opportunities for them easily available.

any thoughts? did i even have a clear question here? ugh.
lisa

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:10:04 -0700 "nellebelle" <nellebelle@...>
writes:
> > Also: "A good mother puts her children to bed, or not."
> > > Anyone got any others? This could be fun.>>>
>
> A good mother feeds her children only wholesome, fresh, made from
> scratch
> foods, or not.
>
> Mary Ellen
>
>
>
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