frustrated inventors
Laura Johnson
My five year old is feeling very frustrated, lately almost to tears. And I'm not sure how to help him. He has these amazing ideas about things he wants to invent or create or design. Practically every ten minutes or so, he is talking about what new thing he is working on in his brain. "I've got another great idea that I'm bouncing around inside of my brain." He wants to make computer games, robots, machines, electronic devices (he wants to make one that will wash fold and put away the laundry for me, I think he should start there) etc... He comes to me and asks for things to make it with. I ask him what he needs and he tells me metal, a generator or some other source of energy (we are in FL, so there have been lots of talk about generators lately), something to cut and melt the metal with, computers to run the robot, you see where this is going... Anyhow, he wants the real thing. I have gotten things from the thrift store to take apart, I give him all kinds of stuff boxes, tubes, wire etc... we have electrical science kits with little motors. But, he is almost in tears, well, in tears because he can't make a robot that will work. He wants to make a real one, not a toy. I give him old radios or other things to take apart, then he takes them apart and can't get it back together or he sees something he wants to make it do and can't.
The other thing he is creating is this elaborate computer game and wants me to help him write the program to make it. Okay, I have no clue here. I'm just now taking an HTML class myself. I know there are classes for this type of thing, but for five year olds?
I tell him that maybe we can make some board games or I can write some of these story games down so that later, when he can do these things, he will remember his ideas. He doesn't really draw well enough to express himself. He is frustrated by that as well. But, that is as lame as it sounds. I tell him that maybe we need to find out the steps he will need to take to learn these things later on. I said, you will probably need to know how to read and write, so maybe we can start there. Again, how lame is that?
He is so amazing and creative, a very intense kid. He really wants to do this and talks about it all of the time, complete with sounds effects and actions. I just don't know where to go with this. I don't really know anyone who does this type of thing either. He can't be the only frustrated five year old inventor around.
Any ideas?
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The other thing he is creating is this elaborate computer game and wants me to help him write the program to make it. Okay, I have no clue here. I'm just now taking an HTML class myself. I know there are classes for this type of thing, but for five year olds?
I tell him that maybe we can make some board games or I can write some of these story games down so that later, when he can do these things, he will remember his ideas. He doesn't really draw well enough to express himself. He is frustrated by that as well. But, that is as lame as it sounds. I tell him that maybe we need to find out the steps he will need to take to learn these things later on. I said, you will probably need to know how to read and write, so maybe we can start there. Again, how lame is that?
He is so amazing and creative, a very intense kid. He really wants to do this and talks about it all of the time, complete with sounds effects and actions. I just don't know where to go with this. I don't really know anyone who does this type of thing either. He can't be the only frustrated five year old inventor around.
Any ideas?
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/9/04 6:53:22 AM,
UnschoolingDiscussion-accept-UrBLEM2siKr9YiP_hU0Q52Q@yahoogroups.com writes:
<< He can't be the only frustrated five year old inventor around.
Any ideas? >>
Sounds like you're doing a good job of supplying him with fodder. Poor guy,
being frustrated.
What about more and different building sets? There are plastic connectors
for pennies, and there's a set called "Ramagon" (more than one set, but it's a
very cool building system, and you can find it with google; it's space-stuff
and the platforms are Lego compatible).
There are some engineering kinds of computer games, but the ones I know about
are oldish, but people with younger kids might know what's current. Games
where you choose components of a race car or an airplane, and then see what
kinds of wheels or wings or whatever are the most efficient.
Sandra
UnschoolingDiscussion-accept-UrBLEM2siKr9YiP_hU0Q52Q@yahoogroups.com writes:
<< He can't be the only frustrated five year old inventor around.
Any ideas? >>
Sounds like you're doing a good job of supplying him with fodder. Poor guy,
being frustrated.
What about more and different building sets? There are plastic connectors
for pennies, and there's a set called "Ramagon" (more than one set, but it's a
very cool building system, and you can find it with google; it's space-stuff
and the platforms are Lego compatible).
There are some engineering kinds of computer games, but the ones I know about
are oldish, but people with younger kids might know what's current. Games
where you choose components of a race car or an airplane, and then see what
kinds of wheels or wings or whatever are the most efficient.
Sandra
Betsy and Chris
>> He wants to make a real one, not a toy. I give him old radios or other things to take apart, then he takes them apart and can't get it back together or he sees something he wants to make it do and can't.What about checking out things like BattleBots (the show on TV where they "fight" homemade robots in a little pit)? They have a website http://www.battlebots.com/ and I'm sure there is a big online community of these robot builders. Might help to consult them or even for your son to know there are other robot enthusiasts out there.
>>
Best of luck!
Betsy S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Johnson
I looked up Ramagon, that looks cool. I might look into those.
While looking around for those, I came across Erector sets. Has anyone's kids gotten into those. Ben is really wanting some metal to work with and I see that these sets have motors too. They may be just the thing. He has so many legos and he is always building with those, but I think things that are plastic don't seem as real to him. He wants metal, gears and motors.
We have Knex, tinker toys, wooden blocks, these plastic clips that make cardboard pieces into structures. We've tried some other smaller sets of a variety of building toys too. Dh is hesitant to get him a new type of building kit. Since he has so many he doesn't use at all. He wants to keep adding to legos, he played with these himself, they are his favorites.
Any negatives on Erector sets? Dh said he had some and didn't play with them much as a kid. But, can't remember why. Thanks.
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
While looking around for those, I came across Erector sets. Has anyone's kids gotten into those. Ben is really wanting some metal to work with and I see that these sets have motors too. They may be just the thing. He has so many legos and he is always building with those, but I think things that are plastic don't seem as real to him. He wants metal, gears and motors.
We have Knex, tinker toys, wooden blocks, these plastic clips that make cardboard pieces into structures. We've tried some other smaller sets of a variety of building toys too. Dh is hesitant to get him a new type of building kit. Since he has so many he doesn't use at all. He wants to keep adding to legos, he played with these himself, they are his favorites.
Any negatives on Erector sets? Dh said he had some and didn't play with them much as a kid. But, can't remember why. Thanks.
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Hi Laura,
Erector sets could be a great discovery. It couldn't hurt to give them a try :-) My husband LOVED them as a kid - even more than legos. He told me that he and his brothers spent hours designing and building with them. He's not home right now, but I'll ask him more about it this afternoon. Good Luck!! Tess
-------------- Original message --------------
Erector sets could be a great discovery. It couldn't hurt to give them a try :-) My husband LOVED them as a kid - even more than legos. He told me that he and his brothers spent hours designing and building with them. He's not home right now, but I'll ask him more about it this afternoon. Good Luck!! Tess
-------------- Original message --------------
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I looked up Ramagon, that looks cool. I might look into those.
>
> While looking around for those, I came across Erector sets. Has anyone's kids
> gotten into those. Ben is really wanting some metal to work with and I see that
> these sets have motors too. They may be just the thing. He has so many legos
> and he is always building with those, but I think things that are plastic don't
> seem as real to him. He wants metal, gears and motors.
>
> We have Knex, tinker toys, wooden blocks, these plastic clips that make
> cardboard pieces into structures. We've tried some other smaller sets of a
> variety of building toys too. Dh is hesitant to get him a new type of building
> kit. Since he has so many he doesn't use at all. He wants to keep adding to
> legos, he played with these himself, they are his favorites.
>
> Any negatives on Erector sets? Dh said he had some and didn't play with them
> much as a kid. But, can't remember why. Thanks.
> Laura J
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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Sandra Dodd
> While looking around for those, I came across Erector sets. Has anyone'skids gotten into those.
------
I had thought to recommend that but he's so young, and they have all those
those eensy little nuts and bolts.
Sandra
Deb Lewis
This place has robot kits, but they're plastic. Dylan had a few of these
and liked them. In fact, there's a T-rex on the tv stand here in the
computer room, looking at me right now.<g>
http://www.roboticsandthings.com/
Erector does make nice motorized sets and we've had several. I'd get
several extra motors though because it's frustrating to have to take one
creation apart in order to motorize another.
Maybe you can visit the college where you live and see if they have a
robotics club. Someone from there might be willing to meet your son and
hang out and talk robots once in awhile, or they might let him visit.
Ask your librarian if she knows anyone who builds robots.
Go on-line and see if there's a club near you. You might find someone
who would really love to share their passion with a like minded five year
old.
Deb L
and liked them. In fact, there's a T-rex on the tv stand here in the
computer room, looking at me right now.<g>
http://www.roboticsandthings.com/
Erector does make nice motorized sets and we've had several. I'd get
several extra motors though because it's frustrating to have to take one
creation apart in order to motorize another.
Maybe you can visit the college where you live and see if they have a
robotics club. Someone from there might be willing to meet your son and
hang out and talk robots once in awhile, or they might let him visit.
Ask your librarian if she knows anyone who builds robots.
Go on-line and see if there's a club near you. You might find someone
who would really love to share their passion with a like minded five year
old.
Deb L
[email protected]
Maybe structur isn't the way to go, if he wants things to do things. Maybe
electronic components from Radio Shack would be cooler. Maybe little lights
that light up and things that turn, on a cardboard or papiermache thing?
A friend of mine made a big mask, a horse head that fit up over her own head
kind of like the giraffe masks on Mr. Rogers. It was heavier than it
should've needed to be. It was light wood, chicken wire and plaster. But for some odd
reason the eyes were two photos of her that turned when the wearer pushed a
button.
It might seem more invention-like if things lit up and moved.
Would he like going to see things work? Can you hang out where they're
surfacing a roadway or using a forklift or maybe (this is a fairly easy one
sometimes) watch carnival rides being put up or disassembled? Would he like
watching a roller coaster and see how it works? (It's State Fair time here, so
those came to mind.)
Sandra
electronic components from Radio Shack would be cooler. Maybe little lights
that light up and things that turn, on a cardboard or papiermache thing?
A friend of mine made a big mask, a horse head that fit up over her own head
kind of like the giraffe masks on Mr. Rogers. It was heavier than it
should've needed to be. It was light wood, chicken wire and plaster. But for some odd
reason the eyes were two photos of her that turned when the wearer pushed a
button.
It might seem more invention-like if things lit up and moved.
Would he like going to see things work? Can you hang out where they're
surfacing a roadway or using a forklift or maybe (this is a fairly easy one
sometimes) watch carnival rides being put up or disassembled? Would he like
watching a roller coaster and see how it works? (It's State Fair time here, so
those came to mind.)
Sandra
NB Garrett
Hi Laura,
Have you seen Rokenbok sets? Our local fancy toy store has a display and
they seem to involve motors and such. I have no idea how much construction
is involved or how much creativity but they do move around.NB
Have you seen Rokenbok sets? Our local fancy toy store has a display and
they seem to involve motors and such. I have no idea how much construction
is involved or how much creativity but they do move around.NB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laura Johnson" <lauraj2@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] frustrated inventors
I looked up Ramagon, that looks cool. I might look into those.
While looking around for those, I came across Erector sets. Has anyone's
kids gotten into those. Ben is really wanting some metal to work with and
I see that these sets have motors too. They may be just the thing. He has
so many legos and he is always building with those, but I think things that
are plastic don't seem as real to him. He wants metal, gears and motors.
We have Knex, tinker toys, wooden blocks, these plastic clips that make
cardboard pieces into structures. We've tried some other smaller sets of a
variety of building toys too. Dh is hesitant to get him a new type of
building kit. Since he has so many he doesn't use at all. He wants to keep
adding to legos, he played with these himself, they are his favorites.
Any negatives on Erector sets? Dh said he had some and didn't play with
them much as a kid. But, can't remember why. Thanks.
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Elizabeth Hill
** Erector sets could be a great discovery. It couldn't hurt to give
them a try :-) My husband LOVED them as a kid - even more than legos.**
My husband also really enjoyed Erector sets, although I don't know at
what age. I remember trying my brother's only once and finding them
difficult to put together and not liking them. So dexterity might be an
issue, but you could help with the hard parts. He might find them
beyond his ability, but then come back to them when he's older, so the
money isn't actually wasted.
Can you "test drive" building kits by visiting with some older kids?
Once upon a time, I wanted to figure out ONE type of building set to
have, and stick with it. I let that idea go, and now we have Legos,
Kn'ex, little kid plastic erector set stuff, and I don't remember what
else. (And my kid is not strongly interested in building.)
The Rokenblok(sp?) things that I've seen at the store are amazing! We
never bought any, but my son liked to watch the demos at the stores.
It's a place to start.
I'm also vaguely remembering cool Capsella stuff. (It was a birthday
gift and not played with much, but maybe it would be cool for your
kid.) Anyone know if I'm spelling it right? Is it made by Lego?
In some ways, a radio controlled car is like a robot.
My son thinks more with his eyes and ears, than with his hands, so we
really liked the 3 or 4 episodes of Scientific American Frontiers that
were about robots. These show what adult specialists are capable of
doing with robots right now.
Betsy
them a try :-) My husband LOVED them as a kid - even more than legos.**
My husband also really enjoyed Erector sets, although I don't know at
what age. I remember trying my brother's only once and finding them
difficult to put together and not liking them. So dexterity might be an
issue, but you could help with the hard parts. He might find them
beyond his ability, but then come back to them when he's older, so the
money isn't actually wasted.
Can you "test drive" building kits by visiting with some older kids?
Once upon a time, I wanted to figure out ONE type of building set to
have, and stick with it. I let that idea go, and now we have Legos,
Kn'ex, little kid plastic erector set stuff, and I don't remember what
else. (And my kid is not strongly interested in building.)
The Rokenblok(sp?) things that I've seen at the store are amazing! We
never bought any, but my son liked to watch the demos at the stores.
It's a place to start.
I'm also vaguely remembering cool Capsella stuff. (It was a birthday
gift and not played with much, but maybe it would be cool for your
kid.) Anyone know if I'm spelling it right? Is it made by Lego?
In some ways, a radio controlled car is like a robot.
My son thinks more with his eyes and ears, than with his hands, so we
really liked the 3 or 4 episodes of Scientific American Frontiers that
were about robots. These show what adult specialists are capable of
doing with robots right now.
Betsy
Robyn Coburn
<<<He is so amazing and creative, a very intense kid. He really wants to do
this and talks about it all of the time, complete with sounds effects and
actions. I just don't know where to go with this. I don't really know
anyone who does this type of thing either. He can't be the only frustrated
five year old inventor around.
Any ideas?>>>
I don't know how to help with the frustration aspect, and I'll be interested
in hearing people's thoughts. However I want to suggest
EdmundScientifics.com - an online catalogue of science stuff including kits
of all sorts. They have itty-bitty generators, little machines that actually
do stuff, as well as broader "explore the concept" kits and robotic things.
Have you subscribed to Popular Science or something of that ilk?
Robyn L. Coburn
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this and talks about it all of the time, complete with sounds effects and
actions. I just don't know where to go with this. I don't really know
anyone who does this type of thing either. He can't be the only frustrated
five year old inventor around.
Any ideas?>>>
I don't know how to help with the frustration aspect, and I'll be interested
in hearing people's thoughts. However I want to suggest
EdmundScientifics.com - an online catalogue of science stuff including kits
of all sorts. They have itty-bitty generators, little machines that actually
do stuff, as well as broader "explore the concept" kits and robotic things.
Have you subscribed to Popular Science or something of that ilk?
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004
mamaaj2000
I have a vague recollection of seeing interesting groups of legos on
Ebay. You might be able to pick up a bunch of gears, or maybe a small
box of Erector set parts or something...
--aj
--- In [email protected], "Laura Johnson"
<lauraj2@v...> wrote:
to work with and I see that these sets have motors too. They may be
just the thing. He has so many legos and he is always building with
those, but I think things that are plastic don't seem as real to
him. He wants metal, gears and motors.
smaller sets of a variety of building toys too. Dh is hesitant to
get him a new type of building kit. Since he has so many he doesn't
use at all. He wants to keep adding to legos, he played with these
himself, they are his favorites.
Ebay. You might be able to pick up a bunch of gears, or maybe a small
box of Erector set parts or something...
--aj
--- In [email protected], "Laura Johnson"
<lauraj2@v...> wrote:
> I looked up Ramagon, that looks cool. I might look into those.anyone's kids gotten into those. Ben is really wanting some metal
>
> While looking around for those, I came across Erector sets. Has
to work with and I see that these sets have motors too. They may be
just the thing. He has so many legos and he is always building with
those, but I think things that are plastic don't seem as real to
him. He wants metal, gears and motors.
>make cardboard pieces into structures. We've tried some other
> We have Knex, tinker toys, wooden blocks, these plastic clips that
smaller sets of a variety of building toys too. Dh is hesitant to
get him a new type of building kit. Since he has so many he doesn't
use at all. He wants to keep adding to legos, he played with these
himself, they are his favorites.
>with them much as a kid. But, can't remember why. Thanks.
> Any negatives on Erector sets? Dh said he had some and didn't play
> Laura J
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/9/04 12:39:39 PM, dezigna@... writes:
<< Have you subscribed to Popular Science or something of that ilk?
And save all the issues to look back into as he gets older, partly for
patterns he'll get later, and partly for the speed with which the news changes.
Sandra
<< Have you subscribed to Popular Science or something of that ilk?
>>Oh yeah!! Popular Mechanics.
And save all the issues to look back into as he gets older, partly for
patterns he'll get later, and partly for the speed with which the news changes.
Sandra
AlysonRR
<<< He is so amazing and creative, a very intense kid. He really wants
to do this and talks about it all of the time, complete with sounds
effects and actions. I just don't know where to go with this. I don't
really know anyone who does this type of thing either. He can't be the
only frustrated five year old inventor around.
Any ideas?
Laura J
make "bachines". Sometimes he's happy enough to make something pretend,
sometimes he really wants to make the thing he has in his mind. At the
same time, however, he's somewhat of a perfectionist and gets frustrated
when he can't make things exactly the way he pictures them. We've done
the same thing as you, provided lots of materials of various types,
including tons of duct tape. What has helped immensely is the Lego kits
for older kids (7+) with their detailed instruction booklets. He
sometimes needs a bit of help, but he gets the satisfaction of building
something "real"-looking and the additional satisfaction of following
instructions and doing it perfectly. He hasn't gotten into the
creativity of Lego - building new things from parts you have - but he
enjoys building the kits exactly to spec over and over and over again.
Since your son doesn't want to build toys, this may not help, but it's
helped mine. And perhaps it helps to know there are other five-year-old
frustrated inventors out there!
Alyson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to do this and talks about it all of the time, complete with sounds
effects and actions. I just don't know where to go with this. I don't
really know anyone who does this type of thing either. He can't be the
only frustrated five year old inventor around.
Any ideas?
Laura J
>>>You're not the only one, Laura. My son, 5-1/2, is always wanting to
make "bachines". Sometimes he's happy enough to make something pretend,
sometimes he really wants to make the thing he has in his mind. At the
same time, however, he's somewhat of a perfectionist and gets frustrated
when he can't make things exactly the way he pictures them. We've done
the same thing as you, provided lots of materials of various types,
including tons of duct tape. What has helped immensely is the Lego kits
for older kids (7+) with their detailed instruction booklets. He
sometimes needs a bit of help, but he gets the satisfaction of building
something "real"-looking and the additional satisfaction of following
instructions and doing it perfectly. He hasn't gotten into the
creativity of Lego - building new things from parts you have - but he
enjoys building the kits exactly to spec over and over and over again.
Since your son doesn't want to build toys, this may not help, but it's
helped mine. And perhaps it helps to know there are other five-year-old
frustrated inventors out there!
Alyson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<bjesch@...>
Lego has a system called Mindstorms. You can build and program the robots. Andthe system is compatible with regular Legos (I think). They're a bit pricy, but they will do what he wants if he can figure it out.
http://mindstorms.lego.com/eng/default.asp?domainredir=www.legomindstorms.com&bhcp=1
Good luck! Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://mindstorms.lego.com/eng/default.asp?domainredir=www.legomindstorms.com&bhcp=1
Good luck! Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Johnson
Legos, are one of his favorites right now. Dh has collected the sets of star wars for years. So, Ben happily took apart the sets his dad spend hours putting together. It was fine with dh, btw. Ben loves the little moving pieces and can make some really intricate things. I got him the Lego Contraptions Books and kit from Klutz. Great pieces! He really likes to build things on his own. Though he got one of the new knight kits and sat down and put it together from the instruction booklet, for the first time on his own. Most of it was in the right place. But, he creates all kinds of Lego things.
One thing he likes also is just junk. He collects junk (his word). He is always going into the garbage and taking out things. So, now I've learned to just set stuff in front of the garbage can. Funny, when I hand it to him, it's just not the same. I see a future dumpster diver in the making. <g> My mil take him to the store and buys him any stuff that he sees, styrofoam, yarn, sticks, tape, metal hoops, hinges.
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I have some great ideas now. I think I'm going with the Erector sets first. I showed these to him on ebay, and he said "That's it, just what I've been waiting for my entire whole life in this universe." So, that is a good sign, wouldn't you say?
He told me today that he wishes he could create this whole world that exists in his imagination. He said then I could share it with you Mom. I would love to be able to see all of the things that live in his imagination. I can't imagine sending him to school. My friend's daughter who is 13 says that Ben is a little too quirky to go to school. I think she meant it as a compliment. I'm glad he gets to be himself.
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One thing he likes also is just junk. He collects junk (his word). He is always going into the garbage and taking out things. So, now I've learned to just set stuff in front of the garbage can. Funny, when I hand it to him, it's just not the same. I see a future dumpster diver in the making. <g> My mil take him to the store and buys him any stuff that he sees, styrofoam, yarn, sticks, tape, metal hoops, hinges.
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I have some great ideas now. I think I'm going with the Erector sets first. I showed these to him on ebay, and he said "That's it, just what I've been waiting for my entire whole life in this universe." So, that is a good sign, wouldn't you say?
He told me today that he wishes he could create this whole world that exists in his imagination. He said then I could share it with you Mom. I would love to be able to see all of the things that live in his imagination. I can't imagine sending him to school. My friend's daughter who is 13 says that Ben is a little too quirky to go to school. I think she meant it as a compliment. I'm glad he gets to be himself.
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
We have a Fischertechnik Universal kit, that I don't think would be too hard
for a 5 year old. It makes something like 50 different working
models...stuff like a garage door, a crank egg beater, a windmill, a vice...it's REALLY
cool...and I think the cost was right around 100.00 from the Timberdoodle...I
think it was a bargain considering all you can make (and you can add little
engines to it later if you want something run by a motor.) PLUS...the
instructions just show pictures of each part and where/how it goes on,...you don't
have to read. They sell all kinds of stuff (I think even robotic kits) that
ARE somewhat expensive...but with such an interest and love for stuff like
that, I think it'd be worth it.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for a 5 year old. It makes something like 50 different working
models...stuff like a garage door, a crank egg beater, a windmill, a vice...it's REALLY
cool...and I think the cost was right around 100.00 from the Timberdoodle...I
think it was a bargain considering all you can make (and you can add little
engines to it later if you want something run by a motor.) PLUS...the
instructions just show pictures of each part and where/how it goes on,...you don't
have to read. They sell all kinds of stuff (I think even robotic kits) that
ARE somewhat expensive...but with such an interest and love for stuff like
that, I think it'd be worth it.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
<http://store.yahoo.com/discoverthis/capsela.html>
Capsela kits - motorized stuff.
-pam
Capsela kits - motorized stuff.
-pam
On Sep 9, 2004, at 9:31 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
> I'm also vaguely remembering cool Capsella stuff.
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