Dia Garland

I wrote the message you quoted from and I stand by my statement. Most
mothers *do* work to fulfill their own desires, or the desires of their
husbands. Desires for bigger houses, newer cars, vacations, material things
that are not needed, but wanted. Maybe they dug a debt hole before they had
kids, and now they "have" to work in order to meet the payments, but the
premise is the same. They are working for wants, not needs.

And yes, I do think that we are all deprived by the loss of the extended
family relationships that once were so common. My mother grew up with most
of her extended family around, and that is very different than what I grew
up with. I am not sure what you menat by "hunter-gatherers". Are you
implying that extended families have not lived within close proximity of
each other for thousands of years???

As for saying that everyone has different standards of what is neccessary,
that is pure foolishness. What is neccessary is shelter, water, nutritious
food, and clothing. Pop-Tarts and Nike are not basic needs, they are wants.
Oatmeal and Wal-Mart shoes would suffice. Our society has taught us that
we "need" more than the basics though, and many people have been very apt
pupils.

Trisha Sides

> >
. What is neccessary is shelter, water, nutritious
>food, and clothing. Pop-Tarts and Nike are not basic needs, they are
>wants.
>
OK first -shelter- Yes what is necessary may vary- We have a very
inexpensive home BUT, we live in a high crime area. That would not be
acceptable to some. Also though the specific block we live in is fairly
nice, the area around is often unkempt, littered with beer bottles etc. To
move to another part of town , the cheapest rent we have found is twice what
we pay now, and we HAVE looked extensively. We have chosen to stay for many
reasons , but if someone would rather have a safer , cleaner environment for
their family, would you blame them?
second water-We live in an area where the water is very nasty-it tastes
bad and it is polluted if you're ok with your children drinking it fine, I
am not. Bottled water/or filters are not that costly however, but the point
is the cost can vary depending on your circumstances
Third -you said NUTRITIOUS food- what constitutes nutritious to you may
not be the same to someone with food allergies or diabetes for instance.
There are many things that can complicate this cost.

and four-Clothing- I cannot buy bargain clothing for my son. It never fits.
Thrift stores NEVER have clothing in his size ( I buy almost all MY clothes
there) He is not obese but has a fat belly and he is only average height if
I buy jeans at Walmart, if they fit around his middle they are 15 inches too
long, yes I can cut them off but they are not proportioned right. I'm sure
I'm not the only one who has this problem. Also some people have gentle,
quiet children, and some people have wild ,free , rambunctious children who
go through a new set of clothes every week ! :)(that's me!) :) so this
neccesity can vary too.
I know I'm not going to change your mind and realy thats not my goal. I also
think that daycare is way overused, and I would sacrafice almost anything to
stay home with my son.>But I wish you would not judge everyone else by your
standards. Each and every story is different.
Just my $.02. Trisha
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Dia Garland

> OK first -shelter- Yes what is necessary may vary<<
No, shelter is shelter, and we Americans have very superior shelter compared
to the rest of the world. What is necessary does not vary, what the
perceived need is varies.

>>, but if someone would rather have a safer , cleaner environment for
> their family, would you blame them?<<

Blame? I have not "blamed" anyone. Nor have I called anyone a "bad
parent". Those terms are coming from people who seem to think that holding
an unpopular opinion is judgemental. That aside, I think I know what you
mean. Maybe. My position is: Parenting is the most important job in the
world. There is nothing that I will do that will have such lasting impact
on the world in which I live. Because it is such an important job, it
should not be left to others to do for me. Someone else is capable of
answering phones, running a store, or writing reports. There is *NO OTHER
PERSON* on this earth who is as capable of raising my children as I (and my
hsband) am. Still with me? Okay, given those beliefs I then must say that
leaving the most important job (raising my children) to someone else so that
I can go do another job is a wrong choice. How can you see it any other
way? It is very easy to see it another way if you believe that parenting is
a no-brainer that any one could do, but I don't see it that way. Parenting,
especially mothering, has become such a lowly postion that it is no wonder
that so many mothers have left their primary job for something that is more
highly regarded!

I have not said that women should never work, I am saying that women need to
make a choice between working or raising their children. They can both be
done, just not at the same time. Perhaps a woman wants to work first and
then have children, or maybe she chooses to have children first and work
after they are grown. But one must choose which to do first, because when
they are done simultaneously then the children are the ones to suffer.

> second water-We live in an area where the water is very nasty-it tastes
> bad and it is polluted if you're ok with your children drinking it fine, I
> am not. Bottled water/or filters are not that costly however, but the
point
> is the cost can vary depending on your circumstances

We used to live in San Diego. Very nasty water. We bought bottled water
for drinking and used tap water for everything else. There are very few
places where the water is completely undrinkable.

> Third -you said NUTRITIOUS food- what constitutes nutritious to you may
> not be the same to someone with food allergies or diabetes for instance.
> There are many things that can complicate this cost.

Why would allergies or diabetes complicate the issue? We deal with
allergies, as do many of our friends, and it does not cost more. As a
matter of fact, the allergies pretty much force us to cook from scratch
instead of relying on convenience foods. Medicine for an insulin dependent
diabetic can be expensive, but what does that have to do with food?

> and four-Clothing- I cannot buy bargain clothing for my son. It never
fits.
> Thrift stores NEVER have clothing in his size ( I buy almost all MY
clothes
> there) He is not obese but has a fat belly and he is only average height
if
> I buy jeans at Walmart, if they fit around his middle they are 15 inches
too
> long, yes I can cut them off but they are not proportioned right. I'm sure
> I'm not the only one who has this problem. Also some people have gentle,
> quiet children, and some people have wild ,free , rambunctious children
who
> go through a new set of clothes every week ! :)(that's me!) :) so this
> neccesity can vary too.

Yes, I have a hard to fit child, and two boys who can rip holes in brand new
clothes far too quickly. They have one pair of "good" jeans and the others
have thin knees or holes, which are fine for wearing around the house. I
have found that elastic waist or drawstring waist pants are easier to fit on
the hard to fit child than jeans. I also learned to sew! Again, it is
choices. Am I going to go to work to provide a new set of clothes for my
children or am I going to work with what I have so I can be home with them?
I think in the long run my being home is more important than lots of
clothes.

.>But I wish you would not judge everyone else by your
> standards.<<

I have not, and am not judging everyone by my standards. I have offered our
scenario as an option. I am trying to show that it is possible to live on
one income. I do not expect everyone to live as I do. It would be far too
crowded out here in the country if they did! We need to look at
alternatives though if we want to live within our means. I learned to look
at needs very differently, and have become very creative at stretching and
re-using. Our society has been pushing consumerism for far too long, and we
have been willing consumers. It is past the time to get off the fast track
to debt and put our kids before things.

I still don't see what this whole thing has to do with hunter-gatherers.

Dia

D Klement

Dia Garland wrote:
> > Third -you said NUTRITIOUS food- what constitutes nutritious to you may
> > not be the same to someone with food allergies or diabetes for instance.
> > There are many things that can complicate this cost.
>
> Why would allergies or diabetes complicate the issue? We deal with
> allergies, as do many of our friends, and it does not cost more. As a
> matter of fact, the allergies pretty much force us to cook from scratch
> instead of relying on convenience foods. Medicine for an insulin dependent
> diabetic can be expensive, but what does that have to do with food?
>
>

Dia if I interpret Trisha's comments correctly, it may be a case of
canned fruit and other prepared foods etc sometimes being cheaper than
fresh but loaded with sugar. Diabetics have to control sugar and fat (to
keep caloric intake down ) in order to get adequate nutrition without
overloading their systems with refined sugars and risking diabetic
blackouts/comas.

Buzz
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The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
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Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
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e-mail- klement@...
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In a message dated 6/25/00 7:57:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, moocow@...
writes:

<< Wal-Mart shoes would suffice. >>

Dia,
Wal-Mart also pays its employees horrible wages and is tolerant about
family issues with its employees. I have another aunt who works for them.
Does this mean that you'll stop shopping there? If you are aware of this and
continue to buy from them, does this mean I should judge you as hypocritical
or uncaring? No, because you may not draw the same conclusions I do or you
may decide that it is the lesser of two evils (the other being needing
another income to support more expensive shoes, etc.).

Lucy in Calif.