Re: can't remember what this was about originally
Ali Kat
***Is it really fair to basically tell kids the only part of the house that is theirs is their own room?***
I have always seen it as personal space and shared space. Why is it wrong to ask for respect for the shared space when you are respecting the personal space? How is that wrong, etc.?
***If they packed a box up really well wouldn't you be able to find a place to store it (shed, basement, store room, under your bed, in the bottom of a shared closet) for when they're grown?***
I can understand this, but you are still talking either shared space or the willingness to share one's personal space. Additionally, these aren't "living" spaces per se. I guess they could be, but they aren't traditionally <g>. Anyway... the other thing to point out is that the "stuff" is then in boxes... contained... not spewed all over and in the way and comfort of the other household members. (though, perhaps you are responding to something different than i am thinking of)
***Stories of people having been made to throw things away that were later worth hundreds of dollars (or more) abound.****
I don't buy things with the idea that they may be worth something someday. I guess part of me doesn't really care if my old toys are/were worth anything, and I don't want the focus to be on future worth instead of current value for my daughter's things. It's not important. Nice, but not important. I can't imagine making someone throw out something dear to them, but I would certainly ask to come to some compromise on the best way to store/keep these items so that it doesn't infringe upon the rest of the household. Is that too much to ask?
It's all well and good to say that one should respect one's child and his/her choices, but what happens when that child's wants/desires or choices begin to affect the happiness, health, safety, well-being, etc... of another child or even a parent? Can you ask a child to consider these things? And... if after asking a child to consider these things he/she still refuses to think of another person and how he/she may feel or be affected by certain "choices" or actions - then what do you do? Perhaps I am totally misreading something, but it seems like if a child says "no" then that's that - regardless how it affects anyone else. And, then again, I could be what-ifing something out of nothing.
---------------------------------
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I have always seen it as personal space and shared space. Why is it wrong to ask for respect for the shared space when you are respecting the personal space? How is that wrong, etc.?
***If they packed a box up really well wouldn't you be able to find a place to store it (shed, basement, store room, under your bed, in the bottom of a shared closet) for when they're grown?***
I can understand this, but you are still talking either shared space or the willingness to share one's personal space. Additionally, these aren't "living" spaces per se. I guess they could be, but they aren't traditionally <g>. Anyway... the other thing to point out is that the "stuff" is then in boxes... contained... not spewed all over and in the way and comfort of the other household members. (though, perhaps you are responding to something different than i am thinking of)
***Stories of people having been made to throw things away that were later worth hundreds of dollars (or more) abound.****
I don't buy things with the idea that they may be worth something someday. I guess part of me doesn't really care if my old toys are/were worth anything, and I don't want the focus to be on future worth instead of current value for my daughter's things. It's not important. Nice, but not important. I can't imagine making someone throw out something dear to them, but I would certainly ask to come to some compromise on the best way to store/keep these items so that it doesn't infringe upon the rest of the household. Is that too much to ask?
It's all well and good to say that one should respect one's child and his/her choices, but what happens when that child's wants/desires or choices begin to affect the happiness, health, safety, well-being, etc... of another child or even a parent? Can you ask a child to consider these things? And... if after asking a child to consider these things he/she still refuses to think of another person and how he/she may feel or be affected by certain "choices" or actions - then what do you do? Perhaps I am totally misreading something, but it seems like if a child says "no" then that's that - regardless how it affects anyone else. And, then again, I could be what-ifing something out of nothing.
---------------------------------
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J. Stauffer
<<<<<Can you ask a child to consider these things? And... if after asking a
child to consider these things he/she still refuses to think of another
person and how he/she may feel or be affected by certain "choices" or
actions - then what do you do? Perhaps I am totally misreading something,
but it seems like if a child says "no" then that's that - regardless how it
affects anyone else. >>>
I think like most things, the answer is "it depends." I think that, of
course, you ask the child to consider other people.
If there is still an issue, I think you try to look for "outside the box"
solutions....perhaps grandma has a big attic or whatever and the kids could
keep some special things at her house for when they visit, or whatever.
If it is still an issue, I think you try to look for underlying
concerns....perhaps the child is feeling particularly insecure right now and
needs time and support to be able to see another point of view, or whatever.
If it is still an issue, I might talk to the other child or parent and
discuss with them why this particular thing is so important to the first
child and see what we could do to make the other child more comfortable with
how things are.
Not in any particular order, just things to consider. But I don't think you
just say "oh, ok" if anyone in the family is infringing on anyone else. One
of the principles at our house is causing no harm or to put it another way,
freedom with responsibility of our actions.
Julie S.
child to consider these things he/she still refuses to think of another
person and how he/she may feel or be affected by certain "choices" or
actions - then what do you do? Perhaps I am totally misreading something,
but it seems like if a child says "no" then that's that - regardless how it
affects anyone else. >>>
I think like most things, the answer is "it depends." I think that, of
course, you ask the child to consider other people.
If there is still an issue, I think you try to look for "outside the box"
solutions....perhaps grandma has a big attic or whatever and the kids could
keep some special things at her house for when they visit, or whatever.
If it is still an issue, I think you try to look for underlying
concerns....perhaps the child is feeling particularly insecure right now and
needs time and support to be able to see another point of view, or whatever.
If it is still an issue, I might talk to the other child or parent and
discuss with them why this particular thing is so important to the first
child and see what we could do to make the other child more comfortable with
how things are.
Not in any particular order, just things to consider. But I don't think you
just say "oh, ok" if anyone in the family is infringing on anyone else. One
of the principles at our house is causing no harm or to put it another way,
freedom with responsibility of our actions.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ali Kat" <sweetgypsiedncer@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: can't remember what this was about
originally
> ***Is it really fair to basically tell kids the only part of the house
that is theirs is their own room?***
>
> I have always seen it as personal space and shared space. Why is it wrong
to ask for respect for the shared space when you are respecting the personal
space? How is that wrong, etc.?
>
> ***If they packed a box up really well wouldn't you be able to find a
place to store it (shed, basement, store room, under your bed, in the bottom
of a shared closet) for when they're grown?***
>
> I can understand this, but you are still talking either shared space or
the willingness to share one's personal space. Additionally, these aren't
"living" spaces per se. I guess they could be, but they aren't
traditionally <g>. Anyway... the other thing to point out is that the
"stuff" is then in boxes... contained... not spewed all over and in the way
and comfort of the other household members. (though, perhaps you are
responding to something different than i am thinking of)
>
> ***Stories of people having been made to throw things away that were later
worth hundreds of dollars (or more) abound.****
>
> I don't buy things with the idea that they may be worth something someday.
I guess part of me doesn't really care if my old toys are/were worth
anything, and I don't want the focus to be on future worth instead of
current value for my daughter's things. It's not important. Nice, but not
important. I can't imagine making someone throw out something dear to them,
but I would certainly ask to come to some compromise on the best way to
store/keep these items so that it doesn't infringe upon the rest of the
household. Is that too much to ask?
>
> It's all well and good to say that one should respect one's child and
his/her choices, but what happens when that child's wants/desires or choices
begin to affect the happiness, health, safety, well-being, etc... of another
child or even a parent? Can you ask a child to consider these things?
And... if after asking a child to consider these things he/she still refuses
to think of another person and how he/she may feel or be affected by certain
"choices" or actions - then what do you do? Perhaps I am totally misreading
something, but it seems like if a child says "no" then that's that -
regardless how it affects anyone else. And, then again, I could be
what-ifing something out of nothing.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
Have a Nice Day!
Perhaps I am totally misreading something, but it seems like if a child says "no" then that's that - regardless how it affects anyone else. And, then again, I could be what-ifing something out of nothing.
****************
I don't think you are "what-ifing something out of nothing"
I have had some of these issues at my house too. We remade the garage into a 4th bedroom solely so that each child could have their own space that nobody else could invade.
But I also ask that the living areas be kept straightened up.
My youngest daughter liked to play bratz dolls in the living room, creating huge home made doll rooms, houses, apartments, etc. It was great, and it stayed set up for weeks, even when she wasn't playing with it anymore.
But after awhile, it got in the way of other things. So, I told her that if she wanted to leave things set up for that length of time, could she do that in her bedroom, where nobody would mess with it (including the dogs), and it wouldn't be in the way.
We have only 3 rooms of shared space: a living room, a family room, and a kitchen (and a very small bathroom). So there isn't much room for "stuff" to just accumulate. And my husband is also a packrat!! He has 3 outbuildings FULL of his stuff.
I just think better when things aren't cluttered.
Kristen
****************
I don't think you are "what-ifing something out of nothing"
I have had some of these issues at my house too. We remade the garage into a 4th bedroom solely so that each child could have their own space that nobody else could invade.
But I also ask that the living areas be kept straightened up.
My youngest daughter liked to play bratz dolls in the living room, creating huge home made doll rooms, houses, apartments, etc. It was great, and it stayed set up for weeks, even when she wasn't playing with it anymore.
But after awhile, it got in the way of other things. So, I told her that if she wanted to leave things set up for that length of time, could she do that in her bedroom, where nobody would mess with it (including the dogs), and it wouldn't be in the way.
We have only 3 rooms of shared space: a living room, a family room, and a kitchen (and a very small bathroom). So there isn't much room for "stuff" to just accumulate. And my husband is also a packrat!! He has 3 outbuildings FULL of his stuff.
I just think better when things aren't cluttered.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Ali Kat
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:00 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: can't remember what this was about originally
***Is it really fair to basically tell kids the only part of the house that is theirs is their own room?***
I have always seen it as personal space and shared space. Why is it wrong to ask for respect for the shared space when you are respecting the personal space? How is that wrong, etc.?
***If they packed a box up really well wouldn't you be able to find a place to store it (shed, basement, store room, under your bed, in the bottom of a shared closet) for when they're grown?***
I can understand this, but you are still talking either shared space or the willingness to share one's personal space. Additionally, these aren't "living" spaces per se. I guess they could be, but they aren't traditionally <g>. Anyway... the other thing to point out is that the "stuff" is then in boxes... contained... not spewed all over and in the way and comfort of the other household members. (though, perhaps you are responding to something different than i am thinking of)
***Stories of people having been made to throw things away that were later worth hundreds of dollars (or more) abound.****
I don't buy things with the idea that they may be worth something someday. I guess part of me doesn't really care if my old toys are/were worth anything, and I don't want the focus to be on future worth instead of current value for my daughter's things. It's not important. Nice, but not important. I can't imagine making someone throw out something dear to them, but I would certainly ask to come to some compromise on the best way to store/keep these items so that it doesn't infringe upon the rest of the household. Is that too much to ask?
It's all well and good to say that one should respect one's child and his/her choices, but what happens when that child's wants/desires or choices begin to affect the happiness, health, safety, well-being, etc... of another child or even a parent? Can you ask a child to consider these things? And... if after asking a child to consider these things he/she still refuses to think of another person and how he/she may feel or be affected by certain "choices" or actions - then what do you do? Perhaps I am totally misreading something, but it seems like if a child says "no" then that's that - regardless how it affects anyone else. And, then again, I could be what-ifing something out of nothing.
---------------------------------
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In a message dated 9/7/04 11:36:31 PM, sweetgypsiedncer@... writes:
<< I don't buy things with the idea that they may be worth something someday.
I guess part of me doesn't really care if my old toys are/were worth
anything, and I don't want the focus to be on future worth instead of current value
for my daughter's things. It's not important. >>
Mothers have thrown out older boys' baseball card collections and comic books
without asking them. They weren't bought with the idea that they would be
worth something, they just were.
When I bought a Beatles lunch box at a thrift store for $1 in 1970, it wasn't
because I thought it would be worth something. I sold it when it reached
$15. I should've saved it til it was worth $50. But I only bought it at the
time because it was cool and I could keep my embroidery stuff in it in my dorm
room.
-=-I can't imagine making someone throw out something dear to them, but I
would certainly ask to come to some compromise on the best way to store/keep
these items so that it doesn't infringe upon the rest of the household. Is that
too much to ask?-=-
When "Is that too much to ask?" is tagged on the end of something like that,
it is a challenge for anyone to suggest that that is too much to ask. It's
not as honest a question as it could be.
-=-It's all well and good to say that. . .-=-
Another loaded phrase.
It suggests that the thing coming up is gong to be an inferior proposal.
-=-It's all well and good to say that one should respect one's child and
his/her choices, but. . .-=-
But if the priorities in a home include respect and choices, then those
questions answer themselves different from the traditional ways.
-=-And... if after asking a child to consider these things he/she still
refuses to think of another person and how he/she may feel or be affected by
certain "choices" or actions - then what do you do?-=-
If you have 1400 square feet and have limited your child's freedom to only
100 of those, that's an arbitrary decision which could be reconsidered if the
child had things of value to her that didn't fit well in her designated personal
space. Storage of a person's valuables seems to be something the family as a
whole should consider.
If people live in a yurt, their storage considerations are different. Or an
RV. But in a house, longterm, it's arbitrary to say "what doesn't fit in your
room has to be given away or thrown away."
-=-Perhaps I am totally misreading something, but it seems like if a child
says "no" then that's that - regardless how it affects anyone else. And, then
again, I could be what-ifing something out of nothing.-=-
Probably the latter, but that's okay.
Sandra
<< I don't buy things with the idea that they may be worth something someday.
I guess part of me doesn't really care if my old toys are/were worth
anything, and I don't want the focus to be on future worth instead of current value
for my daughter's things. It's not important. >>
Mothers have thrown out older boys' baseball card collections and comic books
without asking them. They weren't bought with the idea that they would be
worth something, they just were.
When I bought a Beatles lunch box at a thrift store for $1 in 1970, it wasn't
because I thought it would be worth something. I sold it when it reached
$15. I should've saved it til it was worth $50. But I only bought it at the
time because it was cool and I could keep my embroidery stuff in it in my dorm
room.
-=-I can't imagine making someone throw out something dear to them, but I
would certainly ask to come to some compromise on the best way to store/keep
these items so that it doesn't infringe upon the rest of the household. Is that
too much to ask?-=-
When "Is that too much to ask?" is tagged on the end of something like that,
it is a challenge for anyone to suggest that that is too much to ask. It's
not as honest a question as it could be.
-=-It's all well and good to say that. . .-=-
Another loaded phrase.
It suggests that the thing coming up is gong to be an inferior proposal.
-=-It's all well and good to say that one should respect one's child and
his/her choices, but. . .-=-
But if the priorities in a home include respect and choices, then those
questions answer themselves different from the traditional ways.
-=-And... if after asking a child to consider these things he/she still
refuses to think of another person and how he/she may feel or be affected by
certain "choices" or actions - then what do you do?-=-
If you have 1400 square feet and have limited your child's freedom to only
100 of those, that's an arbitrary decision which could be reconsidered if the
child had things of value to her that didn't fit well in her designated personal
space. Storage of a person's valuables seems to be something the family as a
whole should consider.
If people live in a yurt, their storage considerations are different. Or an
RV. But in a house, longterm, it's arbitrary to say "what doesn't fit in your
room has to be given away or thrown away."
-=-Perhaps I am totally misreading something, but it seems like if a child
says "no" then that's that - regardless how it affects anyone else. And, then
again, I could be what-ifing something out of nothing.-=-
Probably the latter, but that's okay.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/8/04 8:40:15 AM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< I just think better when things aren't cluttered. >>
What if your kids think better when things are?
Is it really about the mom?
I'm not saying things should stay out after they're not being played with,
and I understand having a policy of one or two rooms being clean enough to use
for company or whatever. When a window-replacement rep came yesterday for an
appointment with Keith, I had to clean off a table for them to use. oops.
Usually we have at least one clean, of three, but yesterday we didn't quite.
But if the mom's comfort level is the deciding factor, that's worth noting
and admitting.
Sandra
<< I just think better when things aren't cluttered. >>
What if your kids think better when things are?
Is it really about the mom?
I'm not saying things should stay out after they're not being played with,
and I understand having a policy of one or two rooms being clean enough to use
for company or whatever. When a window-replacement rep came yesterday for an
appointment with Keith, I had to clean off a table for them to use. oops.
Usually we have at least one clean, of three, but yesterday we didn't quite.
But if the mom's comfort level is the deciding factor, that's worth noting
and admitting.
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
Ok, well maybe it is about the mom in my case <g> although we only have 3 rooms we can use for company and those are the same rooms we all live in. On the other hand, I will say that all three of the kids feel the same way I do.
My youngest loves when I clean her room. And just a week or two ago, she let her older sister clean her room and throw away all kinds of stuff. The two girls are definitely NOT packrats.
My son is a packrat, but he is an organized packrat, as is my husband. I always had to laugh because his room was always such a complete mess, and I always just "looked the other way". (I figured, its his room). And for years, the whole house looked like his room because we had a museum's worth of toys, books, art supplies, etc.
But now, even my son hates clutter, so even he cleans it. And he'll clean up after the girls too in the living areas.
Kristen
My youngest loves when I clean her room. And just a week or two ago, she let her older sister clean her room and throw away all kinds of stuff. The two girls are definitely NOT packrats.
My son is a packrat, but he is an organized packrat, as is my husband. I always had to laugh because his room was always such a complete mess, and I always just "looked the other way". (I figured, its his room). And for years, the whole house looked like his room because we had a museum's worth of toys, books, art supplies, etc.
But now, even my son hates clutter, so even he cleans it. And he'll clean up after the girls too in the living areas.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: can't remember what this was about originally
In a message dated 9/8/04 8:40:15 AM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< I just think better when things aren't cluttered. >>
What if your kids think better when things are?
Is it really about the mom?
I'm not saying things should stay out after they're not being played with,
and I understand having a policy of one or two rooms being clean enough to use
for company or whatever. When a window-replacement rep came yesterday for an
appointment with Keith, I had to clean off a table for them to use. oops.
Usually we have at least one clean, of three, but yesterday we didn't quite.
But if the mom's comfort level is the deciding factor, that's worth noting
and admitting.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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In a message dated 9/8/2004 1:36:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sweetgypsiedncer@... writes:
***Is it really fair to basically tell kids the only part of the house that
is theirs is their own room?***
**************************************
Well, just to clarify, we do have a big shed outside that is very
weatherproof (we just have to pack stuff in plastic bins in case mice take an interest)
and we have a big space at the top of the stairs that we can also store stuff
in. You have to understand, we have 9 people in our home, and I wouldn't be
able to MOVE if we all left our stuff lying out in shared spaces. So other than
a big project that usually does stay in the living room a long time,
collections and such that the child DOESN'T want to pack away eventually make their
way back to the child's room, for sanity's sake.
One of my daughters just moved out (went to college) and we are going to give
up on having a 2nd bathroom for a while (BIG bathroom that isn't
finished...no tub or toilet yet) so that by the time we're done shifting everyone around,
they'll all have their own rooms.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sweetgypsiedncer@... writes:
***Is it really fair to basically tell kids the only part of the house that
is theirs is their own room?***
**************************************
Well, just to clarify, we do have a big shed outside that is very
weatherproof (we just have to pack stuff in plastic bins in case mice take an interest)
and we have a big space at the top of the stairs that we can also store stuff
in. You have to understand, we have 9 people in our home, and I wouldn't be
able to MOVE if we all left our stuff lying out in shared spaces. So other than
a big project that usually does stay in the living room a long time,
collections and such that the child DOESN'T want to pack away eventually make their
way back to the child's room, for sanity's sake.
One of my daughters just moved out (went to college) and we are going to give
up on having a 2nd bathroom for a while (BIG bathroom that isn't
finished...no tub or toilet yet) so that by the time we're done shifting everyone around,
they'll all have their own rooms.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]