Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] working moms
[email protected]
I love this woman... you go girl...
Dawn F
Dawn F
[email protected]
In a message dated 06/25/2000 9:43:52 PM !!!First Boot!!!, moocow@...
writes:
<< We have a very low standard of living, if you go by government levels, but
we never want for anything. We choose not to eat out, go to movies, buy
expensive clothes, or give expensive gifts, among other things. We *do*
have plenty of healthful food, clothes on our bodies, and lots of free
things to do. There is nothing wrong with having a low standard of living,
so I really don't feel too sorry for the people you mentioned. I know one
can live quite fine at poverty level!
**Not all of us are called to this monastic life style, though. Would you
say we should never have children? Or that there might possibly be other
ways to live?
In addition, with the increased computer industry, it is becoming easier
for parents to find a job that allows them to be at home most or all of the
time. It might not be easy, but it is possible.
**Not all of us are called to be self-employed. Or work from home. But can
only function and flourish as employees in a more traditional setting. Would
you say all office workers or factory workers or teachers or store managers
or anyone who is not working out of their home should not have children? Or
would you consider that there might be some other way to live that is
workable for those who work outside the home? Perhaps not the current
structure but something in between or instead of or in addition to. Could
there possibly be more than one way to look at this?
I do not have a "harsh, judgemental attitude" towards working moms. I am
calling a wrong a wrong. It is wrong to leave babies and children in the
care of others in order to pursue ones own desires.
*** Well, you may not feel or think that your opinions come across as harsh
and judgemental but I can assure you that they do. Your first sentence is in
fact belied by the next two. I think it is ever so important, perhaps so
much more so in email communication, to repeatedly state when we are giving
our opinions. Otherwise statements like the ones you make in the paragraph
above do come across as strident and not as if you are truly trying to
communicate and listen as well as speak.
Is there anything you would call wrong? Murder? Thievery? Pollution?
Anything? Are you being judgemental when you call a behavior wrong? Think
about that before you start throwing labels around.
Dia >>
** There are many things, Dia, that I personally would call wrong. On the
other hand, there are probably many things in my life that others would find
wrong. They might even assert that my lifestyle is in some way harming my
children. For instance, we homeschool. For instance, we do not go to any
sort of church and are in fact atheists. For instance, we watch TV. For
instance, we openly discuss different lifestyles. The list goes on. There
are many ways in my one little life that I could possibly be accused, by the
right sort of person, of being wrong and doing harm to my children.
We are all in the same boat. I could say that X activity on your part is a
"bad" thing and therefore "harms" your children. Very easy to accuse.
For instance, I could say that you just don't have enough $$ to provide the
education I think in my vast wisdom :) you should be providing for your
children. And you have made this deliberate choice. You could be working
and earning more $$ and sending the little ones to just the "right" day care
and school and yet you obstinately refuse. Therefore, I could say, you are
"wrong." Easy to accuse. Not always easy to understand how the other person
arrived at her choices.
Furthermore, if you sincerely believe that everyone should be living the
lifestyle you describe, it occurs to me that there is no more certain way to
drive off many people from even discussing that possibility than accusing
them of being "wrong" when it comes to their parenting choices.
We could possibly have a discussion in this country of ways to communicate
with working moms and dads to make certain that they are aware of all of
their choices. We could have discussions and campaigns of all sorts that
might truly inform and educate and broaden the horizons of all sorts of
people. But it would not, imo, be a success if everyone's choices and
opinions are not respected. We are all, presumably, adults and caring
parents, and while we may learn from one another I do not believe we should
try to dictate to the next mom how she should live and raise her children.
Take care.
Nance
writes:
<< We have a very low standard of living, if you go by government levels, but
we never want for anything. We choose not to eat out, go to movies, buy
expensive clothes, or give expensive gifts, among other things. We *do*
have plenty of healthful food, clothes on our bodies, and lots of free
things to do. There is nothing wrong with having a low standard of living,
so I really don't feel too sorry for the people you mentioned. I know one
can live quite fine at poverty level!
**Not all of us are called to this monastic life style, though. Would you
say we should never have children? Or that there might possibly be other
ways to live?
In addition, with the increased computer industry, it is becoming easier
for parents to find a job that allows them to be at home most or all of the
time. It might not be easy, but it is possible.
**Not all of us are called to be self-employed. Or work from home. But can
only function and flourish as employees in a more traditional setting. Would
you say all office workers or factory workers or teachers or store managers
or anyone who is not working out of their home should not have children? Or
would you consider that there might be some other way to live that is
workable for those who work outside the home? Perhaps not the current
structure but something in between or instead of or in addition to. Could
there possibly be more than one way to look at this?
I do not have a "harsh, judgemental attitude" towards working moms. I am
calling a wrong a wrong. It is wrong to leave babies and children in the
care of others in order to pursue ones own desires.
*** Well, you may not feel or think that your opinions come across as harsh
and judgemental but I can assure you that they do. Your first sentence is in
fact belied by the next two. I think it is ever so important, perhaps so
much more so in email communication, to repeatedly state when we are giving
our opinions. Otherwise statements like the ones you make in the paragraph
above do come across as strident and not as if you are truly trying to
communicate and listen as well as speak.
Is there anything you would call wrong? Murder? Thievery? Pollution?
Anything? Are you being judgemental when you call a behavior wrong? Think
about that before you start throwing labels around.
Dia >>
** There are many things, Dia, that I personally would call wrong. On the
other hand, there are probably many things in my life that others would find
wrong. They might even assert that my lifestyle is in some way harming my
children. For instance, we homeschool. For instance, we do not go to any
sort of church and are in fact atheists. For instance, we watch TV. For
instance, we openly discuss different lifestyles. The list goes on. There
are many ways in my one little life that I could possibly be accused, by the
right sort of person, of being wrong and doing harm to my children.
We are all in the same boat. I could say that X activity on your part is a
"bad" thing and therefore "harms" your children. Very easy to accuse.
For instance, I could say that you just don't have enough $$ to provide the
education I think in my vast wisdom :) you should be providing for your
children. And you have made this deliberate choice. You could be working
and earning more $$ and sending the little ones to just the "right" day care
and school and yet you obstinately refuse. Therefore, I could say, you are
"wrong." Easy to accuse. Not always easy to understand how the other person
arrived at her choices.
Furthermore, if you sincerely believe that everyone should be living the
lifestyle you describe, it occurs to me that there is no more certain way to
drive off many people from even discussing that possibility than accusing
them of being "wrong" when it comes to their parenting choices.
We could possibly have a discussion in this country of ways to communicate
with working moms and dads to make certain that they are aware of all of
their choices. We could have discussions and campaigns of all sorts that
might truly inform and educate and broaden the horizons of all sorts of
people. But it would not, imo, be a success if everyone's choices and
opinions are not respected. We are all, presumably, adults and caring
parents, and while we may learn from one another I do not believe we should
try to dictate to the next mom how she should live and raise her children.
Take care.
Nance
Brown
Thanks Nance, for your reply to Dia. I was trying to compose something to send,
but you have said it for me!
Carol
but you have said it for me!
Carol
Dia Garland
>I do not call my lifestyle monastic at all. We certainly go places and see
> **Not all of us are called to this monastic life style, though. Would you
> say we should never have children? Or that there might possibly be other
> ways to live? <<
others, and do things, we just choose to do things that are free or low cost
instead of dropping $30 at the movie theater. I do not know if you should
have children or not, I don't know you. And yes, there are other ways to
live other than the lifestyle we have chosen. My point is that it *is
possible* to live happily at a lower economic level than is commonly
believed.
> **Not all of us are called to be self-employed. Or work from home. Butcan
> only function and flourish as employees in a more traditional setting.Would
> you say all office workers or factory workers or teachers or storemanagers
> or anyone who is not working out of their home should not have children?Or
> would you consider that there might be some other way to live that isAgain, I never said that all people should be self employed. I said that it
> workable for those who work outside the home? Perhaps not the current
> structure but something in between or instead of or in addition to. Could
> there possibly be more than one way to look at this?
is an option for those who must work in order to live. By working at home
parents can generate an income and still be available for their children.
Maybe it isn't where the parent is happiest, but then maybe daycare isn't
where the child is happiest either.
> *** Well, you may not feel or think that your opinions come across asharsh
> and judgemental but I can assure you that they do. Your first sentence isin
> fact belied by the next two. I think it is ever so important, perhaps sogiving
> much more so in email communication, to repeatedly state when we are
> our opinions.You are judging those who feel that children do best when there is a parent
at home with them full time. Why is your judgement the "right" one? It is
important to remember that everyone has beliefs, and we are all entitled to
those beliefs. Your belief is not neccessarily the best one.
> ** There are many things, Dia, that I personally would call wrong. On thefind
> other hand, there are probably many things in my life that others would
> wrong. They might even assert that my lifestyle is in some way harming myThere
> children. For instance, we homeschool. For instance, we do not go to any
> sort of church and are in fact atheists. For instance, we watch TV. For
> instance, we openly discuss different lifestyles. The list goes on.
> are many ways in my one little life that I could possibly be accused, bythe
> right sort of person, of being wrong and doing harm to my children.a
> We are all in the same boat. I could say that X activity on your part is
> "bad" thing and therefore "harms" your children. Very easy to accuse.the
> For instance, I could say that you just don't have enough $$ to provide
> education I think in my vast wisdom :) you should be providing for yourcare
> children. And you have made this deliberate choice. You could be working
> and earning more $$ and sending the little ones to just the "right" day
> and school and yet you obstinately refuse. Therefore, I could say, youare
> "wrong." Easy to accuse. Not always easy to understand how the otherperson arrived at her choices.
When children are relegated to full time day care while mommy and daddy are
out fulfilling themselves, the children suffer for it, both emotionally and
educationally. There are quite a few studies that have shown that the best
adjusted children, the ones who are the least likely to do drugs, wind up
pregnant, drink, or engage in other high risk behaviors, are the ones who
come from intact families with one parent at home. That is substantiated
research, not my opinion. Have you ever seen research that shows that kids
are harmed by homeschooling? Or by not eating at McDonald's once a week?
Or by not watching TV? I would guess not. You cannot compare a choice that
harms no one (no TV) with a choice that harms someone (full time day care).
They are not the same thing at all!
>to
> Furthermore, if you sincerely believe that everyone should be living the
> lifestyle you describe, it occurs to me that there is no more certain way
> drive off many people from even discussing that possibility than accusingExcuse me? Where did I say that I thought everyone should be iving the same
> them of being "wrong" when it comes to their parenting choices.
way I am??? I didn't! I stated that it is possible to live on a lower
income. We took a 60% paycut in order to have this lifestyle, it was a
choice that has benefited our family. My point, again, is that the vast
majority of working mothers could live on one income, if they wanted to.
They choose not to. I think it is sad that adults are so selfish that they
will put their wants ahead of their children's needs.
> We could possibly have a discussion in this country of ways to communicateshould
> with working moms and dads to make certain that they are aware of all of
> their choices. We could have discussions and campaigns of all sorts that
> might truly inform and educate and broaden the horizons of all sorts of
> people. But it would not, imo, be a success if everyone's choices and
> opinions are not respected. We are all, presumably, adults and caring
> parents, and while we may learn from one another I do not believe we
> try to dictate to the next mom how she should live and raise her children.I do not think that we need to respect everyone's choices about how they
raise their children. I do not respect the choice to beat small children.
Should I? I believe that leaving children, especially small children, in
full time custodial care is detrimental to them. Why on earth would I give
credence to a choice that is harmful??? You have not said that you do not
think full time care is harmful, all you have done is attacked my
statements. I am more than happy to discuss this issue, but I would like to
see some reasons you believe it is okay to leave children in daycare full
time.
Dia
Benedict/Kosmacher
Hello,
Mind if I join this tea party? Actually I've been imagining this whole
discussion taking place in a large kitchen, tea and coffee mugs in hand --
with our children all playing outside.
Whew! I wish that we had relatives or easily accessible friends and
neighbors who homeschooled nearby. In the absence of this, from time to
time, I envision a beautiful community setting where other gifted adults
(besides myself : ) could be with my children. *** I do believe that there
ARE people (men and women) who have a natural gift for interacting with
young people and children in supportive, playful, artistic ways!**** They
aren't all parents!
While I sense that my children in some way chose me and their father to be
their *main guides* in this wonderful life, I know that this is their WORLD
too and that other human beings have great things to offer. I also know
that my children want to (even at the young ages of 5 and 8) give to their
world -- be it playing fiddle at our family yard sale or sharing the
pretzels that they bake with our local community kitchen. They devise plans
for clubs to save the world and do amazing projects -- but lack a forum to
make this a reality. We get out a lot. We explore, regularly visit and
work at a local farm/ environmental center. We enjoy our local librarians,
and they us, I think. But I guess what I'm building up to here is that I
do believe there is a real place in my childrens' life and my life for SOME
of what we think of as school and daycare. EEEEk I said it! ---- Certainly
not all day, but a place in society to come and join in, where friends
young and old would be to share in dances, song, creating, sharing of
fascinations and play, -- that's what I'm imaging today. And then,
(selfish me!!!) I could go for a run -- which makes me feel so energetic
and alive -- While I'm running I can think about my children with the
benefit of space and breath!
I have friends who I admire very much who send their kids to school and
daycare -- they are very involved in those communities. They are loving
responsive people who know their children. Some have come right out and
said that they wish we would go to school and bring our ideas and energy.
I understand this, but that doesn't seem to be our way at this time. It is
very hard to live outside the box. Now that summer is here my 8 year old
has a new flock of children who can play all day! it makes me feel like
she is missing out on something pretty special during the year. This past
year of homeschooling has been wonderful for my girls in sooo many ways --
but it is not perfect! I'm just giving myself permission to envision what
might be -- if we could recreate the world...
Thanks for listening to my bit. Maybe soon I'll chime in about all the
ways I think Feminism has improved the world.
Keep the conversation coming! blessed be, Amy
Mind if I join this tea party? Actually I've been imagining this whole
discussion taking place in a large kitchen, tea and coffee mugs in hand --
with our children all playing outside.
Whew! I wish that we had relatives or easily accessible friends and
neighbors who homeschooled nearby. In the absence of this, from time to
time, I envision a beautiful community setting where other gifted adults
(besides myself : ) could be with my children. *** I do believe that there
ARE people (men and women) who have a natural gift for interacting with
young people and children in supportive, playful, artistic ways!**** They
aren't all parents!
While I sense that my children in some way chose me and their father to be
their *main guides* in this wonderful life, I know that this is their WORLD
too and that other human beings have great things to offer. I also know
that my children want to (even at the young ages of 5 and 8) give to their
world -- be it playing fiddle at our family yard sale or sharing the
pretzels that they bake with our local community kitchen. They devise plans
for clubs to save the world and do amazing projects -- but lack a forum to
make this a reality. We get out a lot. We explore, regularly visit and
work at a local farm/ environmental center. We enjoy our local librarians,
and they us, I think. But I guess what I'm building up to here is that I
do believe there is a real place in my childrens' life and my life for SOME
of what we think of as school and daycare. EEEEk I said it! ---- Certainly
not all day, but a place in society to come and join in, where friends
young and old would be to share in dances, song, creating, sharing of
fascinations and play, -- that's what I'm imaging today. And then,
(selfish me!!!) I could go for a run -- which makes me feel so energetic
and alive -- While I'm running I can think about my children with the
benefit of space and breath!
I have friends who I admire very much who send their kids to school and
daycare -- they are very involved in those communities. They are loving
responsive people who know their children. Some have come right out and
said that they wish we would go to school and bring our ideas and energy.
I understand this, but that doesn't seem to be our way at this time. It is
very hard to live outside the box. Now that summer is here my 8 year old
has a new flock of children who can play all day! it makes me feel like
she is missing out on something pretty special during the year. This past
year of homeschooling has been wonderful for my girls in sooo many ways --
but it is not perfect! I'm just giving myself permission to envision what
might be -- if we could recreate the world...
Thanks for listening to my bit. Maybe soon I'll chime in about all the
ways I think Feminism has improved the world.
Keep the conversation coming! blessed be, Amy
>> We could possibly have a discussion in this country of ways to communicate
>> with working moms and dads to make certain that they are aware of all of
>> their choices. We could have discussions and campaigns of all sorts that
>> might truly inform and educate and broaden the horizons of all sorts of
>> people. But it would not, imo, be a success if everyone's choices and
>> opinions are not respected. We are all, presumably, adults and caring
>> parents, and while we may learn from one another I do not believe we
>should
>> try to dictate to the next mom how she should live and raise her children.
>
>I do not think that we need to respect everyone's choices about how they
>raise their children. I do not respect the choice to beat small children.
>Should I? I believe that leaving children, especially small children, in
>full time custodial care is detrimental to them. Why on earth would I give
>credence to a choice that is harmful??? You have not said that you do not
>think full time care is harmful, all you have done is attacked my
>statements. I am more than happy to discuss this issue, but I would like to
>see some reasons you believe it is okay to leave children in daycare full
>time.
>
>
>
Debra Caruso
What a well worded ,heartfelt message!!!!Thanks for sharing it :)deb
Benedict/Kosmacher wrote:
Benedict/Kosmacher wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Mind if I join this tea party? Actually I've been imagining this whole
> discussion taking place in a large kitchen, tea and coffee mugs in hand --
> with our children all playing outside.
>
> Whew! I wish that we had relatives or easily accessible friends and
> neighbors who homeschooled nearby. In the absence of this, from time to
> time, I envision a beautiful community setting where other gifted adults
> (besides myself : ) could be with my children. *** I do believe that there
> ARE people (men and women) who have a natural gift for interacting with
> young people and children in supportive, playful, artistic ways!**** They
> aren't all parents!
>
> While I sense that my children in some way chose me and their father to be
> their *main guides* in this wonderful life, I know that this is their WORLD
> too and that other human beings have great things to offer. I also know
> that my children want to (even at the young ages of 5 and 8) give to their
> world -- be it playing fiddle at our family yard sale or sharing the
> pretzels that they bake with our local community kitchen. They devise plans
> for clubs to save the world and do amazing projects -- but lack a forum to
> make this a reality. We get out a lot. We explore, regularly visit and
> work at a local farm/ environmental center. We enjoy our local librarians,
> and they us, I think. But I guess what I'm building up to here is that I
> do believe there is a real place in my childrens' life and my life for SOME
> of what we think of as school and daycare. EEEEk I said it! ---- Certainly
> not all day, but a place in society to come and join in, where friends
> young and old would be to share in dances, song, creating, sharing of
> fascinations and play, -- that's what I'm imaging today. And then,
> (selfish me!!!) I could go for a run -- which makes me feel so energetic
> and alive -- While I'm running I can think about my children with the
> benefit of space and breath!
>
> I have friends who I admire very much who send their kids to school and
> daycare -- they are very involved in those communities. They are loving
> responsive people who know their children. Some have come right out and
> said that they wish we would go to school and bring our ideas and energy.
> I understand this, but that doesn't seem to be our way at this time. It is
> very hard to live outside the box. Now that summer is here my 8 year old
> has a new flock of children who can play all day! it makes me feel like
> she is missing out on something pretty special during the year. This past
> year of homeschooling has been wonderful for my girls in sooo many ways --
> but it is not perfect! I'm just giving myself permission to envision what
> might be -- if we could recreate the world...
>
> Thanks for listening to my bit. Maybe soon I'll chime in about all the
> ways I think Feminism has improved the world.
>
> Keep the conversation coming! blessed be, Amy
>
> >> We could possibly have a discussion in this country of ways to communicate
> >> with working moms and dads to make certain that they are aware of all of
> >> their choices. We could have discussions and campaigns of all sorts that
> >> might truly inform and educate and broaden the horizons of all sorts of
> >> people. But it would not, imo, be a success if everyone's choices and
> >> opinions are not respected. We are all, presumably, adults and caring
> >> parents, and while we may learn from one another I do not believe we
> >should
> >> try to dictate to the next mom how she should live and raise her children.
> >
> >I do not think that we need to respect everyone's choices about how they
> >raise their children. I do not respect the choice to beat small children.
> >Should I? I believe that leaving children, especially small children, in
> >full time custodial care is detrimental to them. Why on earth would I give
> >credence to a choice that is harmful??? You have not said that you do not
> >think full time care is harmful, all you have done is attacked my
> >statements. I am more than happy to discuss this issue, but I would like to
> >see some reasons you believe it is okay to leave children in daycare full
> >time.
> >
>
> >
> >
>
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Dia Garland
Amy,
I don't think what you are talking about is the same as parents putting
their kids in day care full time so they can go work. It sounds like you
are talking more of a co-operative where kids and parents could get together
and share their talents. Very different motives and outcomes!
Dia
I don't think what you are talking about is the same as parents putting
their kids in day care full time so they can go work. It sounds like you
are talking more of a co-operative where kids and parents could get together
and share their talents. Very different motives and outcomes!
Dia
Benedict/Kosmacher
No, of course it's not the same as putting kids in daycare full time. I'm
looking for an expansion of options. What might really meet a variety of
needs and desires if we were open and inventive. Because as I said it's
not just parents who are equipped to give and receive in the scenario I
envision. I want to speak to and look for the best in all of us out there.
We won't get anywhere if we dismiss thoughtfulness in whatever form it
might take.
looking for an expansion of options. What might really meet a variety of
needs and desires if we were open and inventive. Because as I said it's
not just parents who are equipped to give and receive in the scenario I
envision. I want to speak to and look for the best in all of us out there.
We won't get anywhere if we dismiss thoughtfulness in whatever form it
might take.
>Amy,
>
>I don't think what you are talking about is the same as parents putting
>their kids in day care full time so they can go work. It sounds like you
>are talking more of a co-operative where kids and parents could get together
>and share their talents. Very different motives and outcomes!
>
>Dia
>
>
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Benedict/Kosmacher
thanks Deb for thanking me -- it was heartfelt! **** Amy
[email protected]
In a message dated 06/26/2000 4:12:37 PM !!!First Boot!!!, amynjeff@...
writes:
<< I'm
looking for an expansion of options. What might really meet a variety of
needs and desires if we were open and inventive. >>
Now that sounds right on target. Openness to expanded possibilities.
Without trying to guess at anyone else's motivation. Just trying to
brainstorm meeting multiple needs -- and desires -- desires being part of the
mix too.
Hmmmm . . .
Nance
writes:
<< I'm
looking for an expansion of options. What might really meet a variety of
needs and desires if we were open and inventive. >>
Now that sounds right on target. Openness to expanded possibilities.
Without trying to guess at anyone else's motivation. Just trying to
brainstorm meeting multiple needs -- and desires -- desires being part of the
mix too.
Hmmmm . . .
Nance
[email protected]
Amy:
Your vision sounds wonderful. Maybe that's something we will be working
towards in the future when the others get burned out on working 50 hours a
week for someone else and seeing how it does nothing to benefit the growth of
their own and their childrens souls.
Dawn F
Your vision sounds wonderful. Maybe that's something we will be working
towards in the future when the others get burned out on working 50 hours a
week for someone else and seeing how it does nothing to benefit the growth of
their own and their childrens souls.
Dawn F
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/25/00 2:43:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, moocow@...
writes:
<< We choose not to eat out, go to movies, buy
expensive clothes, or give expensive gifts, among other things. >>
Dia,
We also choose to live this way because we value our time much more than
the majority of these "fun" things. There are many beliefs that I have for
my family, things that I truly do believe in, yet do not feel right
condemning others for just because they are feel differently.
For example, I am sick of reading about the massive industrial hog farms
ruining portions of states like North Carolina, so I choose to not buy pork.
I am also sick of reading about the chickens with their beaks cut off living
their entire lives in 12" by 12" boxes so I buy free range eggs. So I can
say that I feel it is wrong for me to buy certain products. But most of the
people I know do buy these products. At times, if the issue comes up, I will
explain my convictions to them so some of them are aware of the reasons. Yet
I am not going to condemn them for making different choices and I believe
that an intolerant, judgemental attitude only makes them less apt to consider
another point of view.
Certainly there are things that I consider very wrong, such as murder.
But I also think about when Jesus says, "Get the rafter out of your own eye
before trying to get the straw out of your brother's." I believe this is a
great illustration no matter what someone's religious beliefs are. Few of us
(or none) are doing everything right yet we want mercy for ourselves and
judgement for the other person. Sadly, it's an all too human flaw.
I do believe that it is wise for a person to take a look at his/her
choices and ask whether they are in effect choosing material goods over other
things that have so much more value, such as time with kids. I'm not far off
from your thinking in application to my personal life. I just think that it
doesn't make us better people or better examples if we come across as being
too self-righteous.
Lucy in Calif.
writes:
<< We choose not to eat out, go to movies, buy
expensive clothes, or give expensive gifts, among other things. >>
Dia,
We also choose to live this way because we value our time much more than
the majority of these "fun" things. There are many beliefs that I have for
my family, things that I truly do believe in, yet do not feel right
condemning others for just because they are feel differently.
For example, I am sick of reading about the massive industrial hog farms
ruining portions of states like North Carolina, so I choose to not buy pork.
I am also sick of reading about the chickens with their beaks cut off living
their entire lives in 12" by 12" boxes so I buy free range eggs. So I can
say that I feel it is wrong for me to buy certain products. But most of the
people I know do buy these products. At times, if the issue comes up, I will
explain my convictions to them so some of them are aware of the reasons. Yet
I am not going to condemn them for making different choices and I believe
that an intolerant, judgemental attitude only makes them less apt to consider
another point of view.
Certainly there are things that I consider very wrong, such as murder.
But I also think about when Jesus says, "Get the rafter out of your own eye
before trying to get the straw out of your brother's." I believe this is a
great illustration no matter what someone's religious beliefs are. Few of us
(or none) are doing everything right yet we want mercy for ourselves and
judgement for the other person. Sadly, it's an all too human flaw.
I do believe that it is wise for a person to take a look at his/her
choices and ask whether they are in effect choosing material goods over other
things that have so much more value, such as time with kids. I'm not far off
from your thinking in application to my personal life. I just think that it
doesn't make us better people or better examples if we come across as being
too self-righteous.
Lucy in Calif.
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/25/00 4:52:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
marbleface@... writes:
<< We are all in the same boat. I could say that X activity on your part is
a
"bad" thing and therefore "harms" your children. Very easy to accuse.
Just had to say that I thought this whole post was excellent.
Lucy in Calif.
marbleface@... writes:
<< We are all in the same boat. I could say that X activity on your part is
a
"bad" thing and therefore "harms" your children. Very easy to accuse.
>>Nance,
Just had to say that I thought this whole post was excellent.
Lucy in Calif.
Dia Garland
>> At times, if the issue comes up, I willWhich is precisly what I did regarding mothers working and leaving their
> explain my convictions to them so some of them are aware of the reasons.<<
kids in instituitional care. The issue was brought up, I wrote what I
believe, and why. Most people disagree with my belief. I have not
condemned anyone, called anyone names, or used hateful words. I have stated
facts (full time day care is detrimental to the development of children),
and I have stated my opinion about these facts (it is wrong to put ones own
desires before a child's needs). Why is this offensive?
>Yetconsider
> I am not going to condemn them for making different choices and I believe
> that an intolerant, judgemental attitude only makes them less apt to
> another point of view.<If you tell someone that the chickens that laid their eggs are inhumanely
treated and you buy only free range eggs, despite the exhorbitant cost, then
you are making a judgement. You have *judged* that free range eggs are
superior to commercially produced ones. Is that bad? No, we make
judgements daily about what we buy, do, don't buy, or don't do. But your
judgement could very easily make someone angry, because it would appear that
you believe you are a more caring and compassionate person than someone who
doesn't care that chickens are kept caged.
(BTW, inhumane conditions are the *least* reason not to buy store eggs. You
don't even want to know what is in those chickens! And I won't even go into
the commercial hog producers. What they raise isn't even meat!)
I am not asking for mercy about my beliefs, nor am I asking anyone not to
judge me. I am well aware of my own failings as a person and as a mother.
I have never claimed to be the best at anything! Jesus told us to "remove
the log before you try to remove the splinter in your brother's eye". This
was referring to the human ability to see a sin in another's life without
acknowledging the same sin in our own life. Is this what you were referring
to? Do you then beleive that because I am against mothers abandoning their
children, then I must also be guilty of the same thing? I am not sure what
you meant by your remark.
Dia
Bonnie Painter
Bravo Lucy, Bravo.
Bonnie
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Bonnie
>From: LASaliger@...________________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] working moms
>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:24:48 EDT
>
>In a message dated 6/25/00 2:43:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>moocow@...
>writes:
>
><< We choose not to eat out, go to movies, buy
> expensive clothes, or give expensive gifts, among other things. >>
>
>Dia,
> We also choose to live this way because we value our time much more
>than
>the majority of these "fun" things. There are many beliefs that I have for
>my family, things that I truly do believe in, yet do not feel right
>condemning others for just because they are feel differently.
> For example, I am sick of reading about the massive industrial hog
>farms
>ruining portions of states like North Carolina, so I choose to not buy
>pork.
>I am also sick of reading about the chickens with their beaks cut off
>living
>their entire lives in 12" by 12" boxes so I buy free range eggs. So I can
>say that I feel it is wrong for me to buy certain products. But most of
>the
>people I know do buy these products. At times, if the issue comes up, I
>will
>explain my convictions to them so some of them are aware of the reasons.
>Yet
>I am not going to condemn them for making different choices and I believe
>that an intolerant, judgemental attitude only makes them less apt to
>consider
>another point of view.
> Certainly there are things that I consider very wrong, such as
>murder.
>But I also think about when Jesus says, "Get the rafter out of your own eye
>before trying to get the straw out of your brother's." I believe this is a
>great illustration no matter what someone's religious beliefs are. Few of
>us
>(or none) are doing everything right yet we want mercy for ourselves and
>judgement for the other person. Sadly, it's an all too human flaw.
> I do believe that it is wise for a person to take a look at his/her
>choices and ask whether they are in effect choosing material goods over
>other
>things that have so much more value, such as time with kids. I'm not far
>off
>from your thinking in application to my personal life. I just think that
>it
>doesn't make us better people or better examples if we come across as being
>too self-righteous.
>
> Lucy in Calif.
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/2000 8:05:47 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
bonniepainter@... writes:
<< self-righteous >>
This definition of this word means, moral, devout, ethical, honorable. Are
these now unwanted attributes????
Dawn F
bonniepainter@... writes:
<< self-righteous >>
This definition of this word means, moral, devout, ethical, honorable. Are
these now unwanted attributes????
Dawn F
[email protected]
In a message dated 06/28/2000 3:48:11 PM !!!First Boot!!!, NumoAstro@...
writes:
<<
<< self-righteous >>
This definition of this word means, moral, devout, ethical, honorable. Are
these now unwanted attributes????
Dawn F
convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions
and beliefs of others; narrow-mindedly moralistic.
Nance
writes:
<<
<< self-righteous >>
This definition of this word means, moral, devout, ethical, honorable. Are
these now unwanted attributes????
Dawn F
>>My Webster's dictionary defines self-righteous this way:
convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions
and beliefs of others; narrow-mindedly moralistic.
Nance
[email protected]
I guess there are many different dictionaries as well...
Dawn F
Dawn F
[email protected]
In a message dated 06/28/2000 11:18:29 PM !!!First Boot!!!, NumoAstro@...
writes:
<< I guess there are many different dictionaries as well...
Dawn F
Nance
writes:
<< I guess there are many different dictionaries as well...
Dawn F
>>Which one did you use?
Nance
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/00 3:13:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, moocow@...
writes:
<< If you tell someone that the chickens that laid their eggs are inhumanely
treated and you buy only free range eggs, despite the exhorbitant cost, then
you are making a judgement. You have *judged* that free range eggs are
superior to commercially produced ones. Is that bad? >>
I am not saying we don't or shouldn't form judgements about issues. But
if I took this belief and then said that people who refuse to buy free range
eggs are selfish, don't care about the environment, ignorant, etc., THAT to
me would be an uncalled for judgment. If I feel morally superior to them
because I am making a choice I believe in, that would be self righteous in my
opinion. Yes, there will be times that we DO do this, such as with people
who are doing things that are universally recognized as wrong (selling their
children for drugs, for example). But if we do it with every choice that we
disagree with, choices that many people have made and that are considered
acceptable, I think it comes across as very intolerant.
I believe we can have a belief on an issue without judging the people
harshly who have a different belief. Another example...I believe it is a
contradiction for a person to say he/she is a Christian but believe in going
to war. I will delve into that belief or explain it to anyone but I am not
going to make the jump to saying that people who claim to be Christian and go
to war are hypocrites, evil, whatever.
As for the statement by Jesus about the log, I believe that applies to
more than just a person doing the exact same sin that he's accusing his
brother of. We are all filled with flaws, struggling along, doing all kinds
of things wrong which we may not recognize at the time. I believe the point
of that scripture is that we should work on ourselves rather than focusing on
what someone else is doing wrong. Another similar example would be when they
caught the woman committing adultery and he said, "Let him that is without
sin cast the first stone." (Didn't mean to get into a major religious thing
here!)
Lucy in Calif.
writes:
<< If you tell someone that the chickens that laid their eggs are inhumanely
treated and you buy only free range eggs, despite the exhorbitant cost, then
you are making a judgement. You have *judged* that free range eggs are
superior to commercially produced ones. Is that bad? >>
I am not saying we don't or shouldn't form judgements about issues. But
if I took this belief and then said that people who refuse to buy free range
eggs are selfish, don't care about the environment, ignorant, etc., THAT to
me would be an uncalled for judgment. If I feel morally superior to them
because I am making a choice I believe in, that would be self righteous in my
opinion. Yes, there will be times that we DO do this, such as with people
who are doing things that are universally recognized as wrong (selling their
children for drugs, for example). But if we do it with every choice that we
disagree with, choices that many people have made and that are considered
acceptable, I think it comes across as very intolerant.
I believe we can have a belief on an issue without judging the people
harshly who have a different belief. Another example...I believe it is a
contradiction for a person to say he/she is a Christian but believe in going
to war. I will delve into that belief or explain it to anyone but I am not
going to make the jump to saying that people who claim to be Christian and go
to war are hypocrites, evil, whatever.
As for the statement by Jesus about the log, I believe that applies to
more than just a person doing the exact same sin that he's accusing his
brother of. We are all filled with flaws, struggling along, doing all kinds
of things wrong which we may not recognize at the time. I believe the point
of that scripture is that we should work on ourselves rather than focusing on
what someone else is doing wrong. Another similar example would be when they
caught the woman committing adultery and he said, "Let him that is without
sin cast the first stone." (Didn't mean to get into a major religious thing
here!)
Lucy in Calif.
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/26/00 10:16:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
amynjeff@... writes:
<< Thanks for listening to my bit. Maybe soon I'll chime in about all the
ways I think Feminism has improved the world. >>
amy... you have a vivid and lovely imagination...
amynjeff@... writes:
<< Thanks for listening to my bit. Maybe soon I'll chime in about all the
ways I think Feminism has improved the world. >>
amy... you have a vivid and lovely imagination...
Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
>My Webster's dictionary defines self-righteous this way:This is the meaning I associate with that phrase. It is also the one most used when this phrase is utilized in books and periodicals.
>
>convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions
>and beliefs of others; narrow-mindedly moralistic.
>
>
>
>Nance
Nanci K.
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