a question about formal writing & unschooling
Laura Johnson
I'm wondering, is it possible to help a child prepare for college or even some standardized test they may have to take in regards to formal writing in an unschooling way. I know that I didn't really learn to write a good "paper" until I went to college. I spent much of high school in the parking lot or at the beach myself. So, I really learned it in Freshman Communications class. It was a big awakening that I had "somehow" missed what most other students knew. If you realize your child is college bound, how can you help them learn formal writing, so they don't go into it not knowing how to follow a scripted planned paper. Which is what most profs are looking for. I am new to unschooling, but am learning so much from this group. This question came up with a friend the other day and I wasn't sure of the answer myself. How do you help them prepare for formal instruction in general?
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 9/6/04 11:51 PM, Laura Johnson at lauraj2@... wrote:
they're learning by living life.
The best way to learn to write is to have a real reason to write. Email,
IMs, message boards, letters to companies, newspaper editors, friends and
fan mail, lists, notes, stories, Amazon reviews, video game walkthroughs.
The whole point of writing is because you want to give someone information
in writing that they want or need. Assigned writing is missing the vital
components of wanting to give and wanting to receive.
need to know something. You just need to know what the teacher wants to see.
I'm betting from the professor's point of view that the papers were
generally lousy. Two common complaints from college professors is that kids
can't write and kids can't do math. And that's because it's hard to learn
something if you aren't doing it for real reasons.
With unschooling kids use tools to get what they want. Learning happens as a
side effect. Kids don't get better at English because it's useful. They use
English because even used imperfectly and little understanding it works
better than crying. They aren't trying to get better at the tool of English.
They're trying to get what they want better. Getting better at English
happens as a side effect of using it to get what they want.
A side effect of passing on information in IMs and emails is that kids get
better at writing. That's because whoever they're writing to wants or needs
to understand what they're saying. And the reader will give feed back --
"Huh? What's that mean?" -- that helps the writer figure out better how to
make words say what they what they mean. And as a side effect of wanting to
get someone to understand, they get better at writing.
If kids have real opportunities to do real writing, then formal writing
instruction is just a way of gathering up everything they already know and
organizing it.
In school, it's the opposite. Kids are trying to figure out abstractions
about something they don't understand while trying to figure out how to put
it into practice, without having real reasons to apply the knowledge.
In the meantime, writing a story is way more important than a book report.
Taking a class *that interests them* that happens to require writing is way
more important than taking a class the requires writing as a way to learn
writing.
When they get to college age you can talk about skills that will be useful.
It's lots easier for kids to take some community college courses in subjects
for fun than to go cold into college. That way they can get a feel for what
they need to know and skills they might like to work on before they make a
bigger committement to full time college.
Don't focus on the tools so much as what the tools are being used for.
Learning tool use is a side effect of doing things for real.
Joyce
> How do you help them prepare for formal instruction in general?Part of it is trust that formal instruction is just a formal version of what
they're learning by living life.
The best way to learn to write is to have a real reason to write. Email,
IMs, message boards, letters to companies, newspaper editors, friends and
fan mail, lists, notes, stories, Amazon reviews, video game walkthroughs.
The whole point of writing is because you want to give someone information
in writing that they want or need. Assigned writing is missing the vital
components of wanting to give and wanting to receive.
> It was a big awakening that I had "somehow" missed what most other studentsI bet not. Part of the reality of school is learning to fake it. You don't
> knew.
need to know something. You just need to know what the teacher wants to see.
I'm betting from the professor's point of view that the papers were
generally lousy. Two common complaints from college professors is that kids
can't write and kids can't do math. And that's because it's hard to learn
something if you aren't doing it for real reasons.
With unschooling kids use tools to get what they want. Learning happens as a
side effect. Kids don't get better at English because it's useful. They use
English because even used imperfectly and little understanding it works
better than crying. They aren't trying to get better at the tool of English.
They're trying to get what they want better. Getting better at English
happens as a side effect of using it to get what they want.
A side effect of passing on information in IMs and emails is that kids get
better at writing. That's because whoever they're writing to wants or needs
to understand what they're saying. And the reader will give feed back --
"Huh? What's that mean?" -- that helps the writer figure out better how to
make words say what they what they mean. And as a side effect of wanting to
get someone to understand, they get better at writing.
If kids have real opportunities to do real writing, then formal writing
instruction is just a way of gathering up everything they already know and
organizing it.
In school, it's the opposite. Kids are trying to figure out abstractions
about something they don't understand while trying to figure out how to put
it into practice, without having real reasons to apply the knowledge.
In the meantime, writing a story is way more important than a book report.
Taking a class *that interests them* that happens to require writing is way
more important than taking a class the requires writing as a way to learn
writing.
When they get to college age you can talk about skills that will be useful.
It's lots easier for kids to take some community college courses in subjects
for fun than to go cold into college. That way they can get a feel for what
they need to know and skills they might like to work on before they make a
bigger committement to full time college.
Don't focus on the tools so much as what the tools are being used for.
Learning tool use is a side effect of doing things for real.
Joyce
April M
I have an interesting story about this. I haven't 'taught' my kids formal
writing. But they have always written, letters, stories, poems, lists,
whatever was needed, some more than others. My oldest two were in a
homeschool newspaper club because they liked to write and see it printed.
Usually they did poems or stories, not article's or informational pieces.
But my oldest was interested in the concept of co-dependency and chose to do
some research and write a two part article for the newspaper. She asked for
some help, but just out of common sense, she had footnotes, an intro, middle
and conclusion, and it was well done. Could have easily been turned in for
some kind of class. She did it because she wanted to, because she thought
there were kids her age who needed the information and this was the way to
do it. She was never taught how to do this. But this is what made sense to
her. Writing of any kind isn't a mystery that needs to be taught, it really
is mostly common sense I think.
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"Life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react to it." ~~ Dennis P.
Kimbro
-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] a question about formal writing
&unschooling
on 9/6/04 11:51 PM, Laura Johnson at lauraj2@... wrote:
what
they're learning by living life.
The best way to learn to write is to have a real reason to write. Email,
IMs, message boards, letters to companies, newspaper editors, friends and
fan mail, lists, notes, stories, Amazon reviews, video game walkthroughs.
The whole point of writing is because you want to give someone information
in writing that they want or need. Assigned writing is missing the vital
components of wanting to give and wanting to receive.
need to know something. You just need to know what the teacher wants to
see.
I'm betting from the professor's point of view that the papers were
generally lousy. Two common complaints from college professors is that
kids
can't write and kids can't do math. And that's because it's hard to learn
something if you aren't doing it for real reasons.
With unschooling kids use tools to get what they want. Learning happens as
a
side effect. Kids don't get better at English because it's useful. They
use
English because even used imperfectly and little understanding it works
better than crying. They aren't trying to get better at the tool of
English.
They're trying to get what they want better. Getting better at English
happens as a side effect of using it to get what they want.
A side effect of passing on information in IMs and emails is that kids get
better at writing. That's because whoever they're writing to wants or
needs
to understand what they're saying. And the reader will give feed back --
"Huh? What's that mean?" -- that helps the writer figure out better how to
make words say what they what they mean. And as a side effect of wanting
to
get someone to understand, they get better at writing.
If kids have real opportunities to do real writing, then formal writing
instruction is just a way of gathering up everything they already know and
organizing it.
In school, it's the opposite. Kids are trying to figure out abstractions
about something they don't understand while trying to figure out how to
put
it into practice, without having real reasons to apply the knowledge.
In the meantime, writing a story is way more important than a book report.
Taking a class *that interests them* that happens to require writing is
way
more important than taking a class the requires writing as a way to learn
writing.
When they get to college age you can talk about skills that will be
useful.
It's lots easier for kids to take some community college courses in
subjects
for fun than to go cold into college. That way they can get a feel for
what
they need to know and skills they might like to work on before they make a
bigger committement to full time college.
Don't focus on the tools so much as what the tools are being used for.
Learning tool use is a side effect of doing things for real.
Joyce
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writing. But they have always written, letters, stories, poems, lists,
whatever was needed, some more than others. My oldest two were in a
homeschool newspaper club because they liked to write and see it printed.
Usually they did poems or stories, not article's or informational pieces.
But my oldest was interested in the concept of co-dependency and chose to do
some research and write a two part article for the newspaper. She asked for
some help, but just out of common sense, she had footnotes, an intro, middle
and conclusion, and it was well done. Could have easily been turned in for
some kind of class. She did it because she wanted to, because she thought
there were kids her age who needed the information and this was the way to
do it. She was never taught how to do this. But this is what made sense to
her. Writing of any kind isn't a mystery that needs to be taught, it really
is mostly common sense I think.
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"Life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react to it." ~~ Dennis P.
Kimbro
-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] a question about formal writing
&unschooling
on 9/6/04 11:51 PM, Laura Johnson at lauraj2@... wrote:
> How do you help them prepare for formal instruction in general?Part of it is trust that formal instruction is just a formal version of
what
they're learning by living life.
The best way to learn to write is to have a real reason to write. Email,
IMs, message boards, letters to companies, newspaper editors, friends and
fan mail, lists, notes, stories, Amazon reviews, video game walkthroughs.
The whole point of writing is because you want to give someone information
in writing that they want or need. Assigned writing is missing the vital
components of wanting to give and wanting to receive.
> It was a big awakening that I had "somehow" missed what most otherstudents
> knew.I bet not. Part of the reality of school is learning to fake it. You don't
need to know something. You just need to know what the teacher wants to
see.
I'm betting from the professor's point of view that the papers were
generally lousy. Two common complaints from college professors is that
kids
can't write and kids can't do math. And that's because it's hard to learn
something if you aren't doing it for real reasons.
With unschooling kids use tools to get what they want. Learning happens as
a
side effect. Kids don't get better at English because it's useful. They
use
English because even used imperfectly and little understanding it works
better than crying. They aren't trying to get better at the tool of
English.
They're trying to get what they want better. Getting better at English
happens as a side effect of using it to get what they want.
A side effect of passing on information in IMs and emails is that kids get
better at writing. That's because whoever they're writing to wants or
needs
to understand what they're saying. And the reader will give feed back --
"Huh? What's that mean?" -- that helps the writer figure out better how to
make words say what they what they mean. And as a side effect of wanting
to
get someone to understand, they get better at writing.
If kids have real opportunities to do real writing, then formal writing
instruction is just a way of gathering up everything they already know and
organizing it.
In school, it's the opposite. Kids are trying to figure out abstractions
about something they don't understand while trying to figure out how to
put
it into practice, without having real reasons to apply the knowledge.
In the meantime, writing a story is way more important than a book report.
Taking a class *that interests them* that happens to require writing is
way
more important than taking a class the requires writing as a way to learn
writing.
When they get to college age you can talk about skills that will be
useful.
It's lots easier for kids to take some community college courses in
subjects
for fun than to go cold into college. That way they can get a feel for
what
they need to know and skills they might like to work on before they make a
bigger committement to full time college.
Don't focus on the tools so much as what the tools are being used for.
Learning tool use is a side effect of doing things for real.
Joyce
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
I would love to answer this question.
--- In [email protected], "Laura Johnson" <lauraj2@v...> wrote:
> I'm wondering, is it possible to help a child prepare for college or even some
standardized test they may have to take in regards to formal writing in an unschooling
way.
A resounding "yes."
>>I know that I didn't really learn to write a good "paper" until I went to college. I spent
much of high school in the parking lot or at the beach myself. So, I really learned it in
Freshman Communications class. It was a big awakening that I had "somehow" missed
what most other students knew. If you realize your child is college bound, how can you
help them learn formal writing, so they don't go into it not knowing how to follow a
scripted planned paper. Which is what most profs are looking for. I am new to
unschooling, but am learning so much from this group. This question came up with a
friend the other day and I wasn't sure of the answer myself. How do you help them
prepare for formal instruction in general?
It's not difficult to teach writing formats to anyone who is interested and comfortable
expressing him/herself in writing. If your kids use live journals, spend time emailing or
posting on email lists that relate to their interests, they are already doing the kind of
writing that will prepare them for timed essay writing (such as the SAT in 2005 and ACTin
2006).
Kids who are college-bound (by choice) will want to prepare. They can take courses online
(I happen to teach several) or they can use books to prepare. One little book taht I really
like is called "Daily Writing Warm-ups." It happens to be in the format that will likely
characterize the SAT tests. There are quotes from famous people that catalyze a response.
The student's job is to write about the quote in a way that shows organization and
personal flair.
Kids who read a lot, talk to adults often and who are comfortable expressing themselves in
writing are already far ahead of the average school child and even homeschooled child
who hates writing. If you have a child who doesn't write (for pleasure or even due to
necessity), then you want to ask your child for his goals and what he is really interested in.
Writing instruction can be a real joy (my online classes are so popular with high school
students because they have the opportunity to write for each other and to really sink their
teeth into the writing process in a supportive, conversational, competent atmosphere.
Julie B
http://www.bravewriter.com
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
"frivolous" and they try to limit it.
they will be looking for a certain format. The format doesn't have to be rigid, but the
characteristics they will look for (in addition to spelling, grammar and punctuation) are
things like use of transitions, organized points, a thesis and a satisfying conclusion.
Two common complaints from college professors is that kids
classes is an inability to think. Most students think they need to find someone else's
thoughts to hijack into their writing. They haven't discovered how to interact directly with
material themselves.
test. The rest is taught in college and taught better than most homeschools or high
schools can anyway.
Or they can take online courses where the writing is based on personal interests, skills and
areas of personal expertise.
Timed writing is a bit different than writng an essay over a month period. It requires a
unique set of skills. But don't worry. No high schooler is taught timed writing either. It's a
gaping hole in education.
The best preparation for timed writing is "freewriting" which is just writing about the topic
at hand without interruption for a specified amount of time. Peter Elbow (Writing with
Power and Writing without Teachers) has some terrific chapters about writing "in the
system" and how to use freewriting.
I do teach an online course called Timed Essay Writing in the spring for those interested.
But I agree with Joyce here. There is so much learning about writing happening in
unchooled kids just by virtue of the lives they already lead (reading, talking and writing
online). they are way ahead. The unschooled kids I've taught are a breath of fresh air.
I've included a link to a page on my website about freewriting.
Julie B
http://www.bravewriter.com/Exercises/free-writing.html
> The best way to learn to write is to have a real reason to write. Email,Exactly true! What mystifies me is that so many moms consider this kind of writing
> IMs, message boards, letters to companies, newspaper editors, friends and
> fan mail, lists, notes, stories, Amazon reviews, video game walkthroughs.
"frivolous" and they try to limit it.
>The problem is that the entrance exams for college are now including essay writing and
> The whole point of writing is because you want to give someone information
> in writing that they want or need. Assigned writing is missing the vital
> components of wanting to give and wanting to receive.
they will be looking for a certain format. The format doesn't have to be rigid, but the
characteristics they will look for (in addition to spelling, grammar and punctuation) are
things like use of transitions, organized points, a thesis and a satisfying conclusion.
>And learning how to "guess" what the teacher wants to read.
> > It was a big awakening that I had "somehow" missed what most other students
> > knew.
>
> I bet not. Part of the reality of school is learning to fake it.
Two common complaints from college professors is that kids
> can't write and kids can't do math. And that's because it's hard to learnAt the university level, the biggest problem my husband has encountered in his writing
> something if you aren't doing it for real reasons.
classes is an inability to think. Most students think they need to find someone else's
thoughts to hijack into their writing. They haven't discovered how to interact directly with
material themselves.
>This is my favorite thing about the Internet.
> A side effect of passing on information in IMs and emails is that kids get
> better at writing. That's because whoever they're writing to wants or needs
> to understand what they're saying. And the reader will give feed back --
> "Huh? What's that mean?" -- that helps the writer figure out better how to
> make words say what they what they mean. And as a side effect of wanting to
> get someone to understand, they get better at writing.
>That's right. Read the books by the pros, not by the educators. The pros get it.
> If kids have real opportunities to do real writing, then formal writing
> instruction is just a way of gathering up everything they already know and
> organizing it.
>I'd say, as they get ready for college applications, they can talk about how to tackle that
> When they get to college age you can talk about skills that will be useful.
test. The rest is taught in college and taught better than most homeschools or high
schools can anyway.
Or they can take online courses where the writing is based on personal interests, skills and
areas of personal expertise.
Timed writing is a bit different than writng an essay over a month period. It requires a
unique set of skills. But don't worry. No high schooler is taught timed writing either. It's a
gaping hole in education.
The best preparation for timed writing is "freewriting" which is just writing about the topic
at hand without interruption for a specified amount of time. Peter Elbow (Writing with
Power and Writing without Teachers) has some terrific chapters about writing "in the
system" and how to use freewriting.
I do teach an online course called Timed Essay Writing in the spring for those interested.
But I agree with Joyce here. There is so much learning about writing happening in
unchooled kids just by virtue of the lives they already lead (reading, talking and writing
online). they are way ahead. The unschooled kids I've taught are a breath of fresh air.
I've included a link to a page on my website about freewriting.
Julie B
http://www.bravewriter.com/Exercises/free-writing.html
Laura Johnson
------Timed writing is a bit different than writng an essay over a month period. It requires a
unique set of skills. But don't worry. No high schooler is taught timed writing either. It's a
gaping hole in education.
Florida is taking care of that. So much of the 3rd and 4th grade is spent on preparing for Florida Writes testing. When I taught first grade, I was expected to teach the kids by the end of the year how to write a formal paragraph about a topic with a topic sentence, three supporting details and a concluding sentence. They start timed writing in second grade with full five paragraph essays on assigned topics. I haven't taught in 5 years, so I'm sure they are now pushing that in preschool now.
My son is only 5, so it isn't a real issue at this point or anytime soon for us. I was just wondering as a discussion point with some friends and with dh who is concerned already about his college education, hello, he's five!!
He has him mentally signed up for Harvard. UGH, It's a process and a journey, right???
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unique set of skills. But don't worry. No high schooler is taught timed writing either. It's a
gaping hole in education.
Florida is taking care of that. So much of the 3rd and 4th grade is spent on preparing for Florida Writes testing. When I taught first grade, I was expected to teach the kids by the end of the year how to write a formal paragraph about a topic with a topic sentence, three supporting details and a concluding sentence. They start timed writing in second grade with full five paragraph essays on assigned topics. I haven't taught in 5 years, so I'm sure they are now pushing that in preschool now.
My son is only 5, so it isn't a real issue at this point or anytime soon for us. I was just wondering as a discussion point with some friends and with dh who is concerned already about his college education, hello, he's five!!
He has him mentally signed up for Harvard. UGH, It's a process and a journey, right???
Laura J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Sep 6, 2004, at 8:51 PM, Laura Johnson wrote:
essay. This was because they wanted to take the CHSPE - California High
School Proficiency Exam. Passing this exam gives them a high school
diploma from the State of California. It isn't necessary for
homeschoolers in California to do this - one of my kids did it and the
next doesn't think she's going to do it - but it is one way to be able
to say you've "graduated" and that gets them out of having to go to the
local high school and get a work permit and it also gives them
unlimited access to the community college.
Anyway - I've taught several kids how to write an essay. It probably
took about 30 minutes for them to listen to me describe what it would
look like, read a couple of examples, and write a couple of quick ones
of their own. Certainly took less than an hour for that whole process.
I AM a college professor, by the way, and I don't see many incoming
freshmen who know much about writing. If I want any particular format,
I explain it to them myself.
One of my daughters took a History of Opera class - that was the first
time she was expected to write anything for a class - never wrote an
essay before in her life for any kind of class. I told her to just
write an opening paragraph and a closing paragraph and in between write
what she wanted to write about the subject and then divide that up into
paragraphs to make it easier to follow. She got an A.
Learning to write an essay in English Comp class as a college freshman
isn't a bad time to learn, either, in my opinion.
"Just in time learning" is great. Learning when there is an obvious
reason to learn is far more effective than just generally being
prepared for some nebulous thing like "going to college" which is
someday, maybe, in the future.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> This question came up with a friend the other day and I wasn't sure ofI've helped a few unschooled kids learn to put together a 5-paragraph
> the answer myself. How do you help them prepare for formal
> instruction in general?
essay. This was because they wanted to take the CHSPE - California High
School Proficiency Exam. Passing this exam gives them a high school
diploma from the State of California. It isn't necessary for
homeschoolers in California to do this - one of my kids did it and the
next doesn't think she's going to do it - but it is one way to be able
to say you've "graduated" and that gets them out of having to go to the
local high school and get a work permit and it also gives them
unlimited access to the community college.
Anyway - I've taught several kids how to write an essay. It probably
took about 30 minutes for them to listen to me describe what it would
look like, read a couple of examples, and write a couple of quick ones
of their own. Certainly took less than an hour for that whole process.
I AM a college professor, by the way, and I don't see many incoming
freshmen who know much about writing. If I want any particular format,
I explain it to them myself.
One of my daughters took a History of Opera class - that was the first
time she was expected to write anything for a class - never wrote an
essay before in her life for any kind of class. I told her to just
write an opening paragraph and a closing paragraph and in between write
what she wanted to write about the subject and then divide that up into
paragraphs to make it easier to follow. She got an A.
Learning to write an essay in English Comp class as a college freshman
isn't a bad time to learn, either, in my opinion.
"Just in time learning" is great. Learning when there is an obvious
reason to learn is far more effective than just generally being
prepared for some nebulous thing like "going to college" which is
someday, maybe, in the future.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Have a Nice Day!
At the university level, the biggest problem my husband has encountered in his writing
classes is an inability to think. Most students think they need to find someone else's
thoughts to hijack into their writing. They haven't discovered how to interact directly with
material themselves.
*********************
My mother is a College English prof, and she said exactly the same thing. SHe also said that the writing has poor grammar and sentence structure.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
classes is an inability to think. Most students think they need to find someone else's
thoughts to hijack into their writing. They haven't discovered how to interact directly with
material themselves.
*********************
My mother is a College English prof, and she said exactly the same thing. SHe also said that the writing has poor grammar and sentence structure.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
Great post and ITA. :) I always say to moms who are nervous that they can learn the essay
format in fifteen minutes. Teaching it takes a half an hour.
Writing it can take longer so that the ideas have time to germinate and then the revision
process.
At my seminars and at conferences, I often take a quick hand count to find out who
remembers learning how to write a five paragraph essay. In a room of one hundred adults,
I usually don't see more than five hands go up.
My daughter is currently taking honor's English at the high school (horrid program) and
they expect essays but never teach them how to write them. Disgutsing.
Julie B
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@m...>
wrote:
format in fifteen minutes. Teaching it takes a half an hour.
Writing it can take longer so that the ideas have time to germinate and then the revision
process.
At my seminars and at conferences, I often take a quick hand count to find out who
remembers learning how to write a five paragraph essay. In a room of one hundred adults,
I usually don't see more than five hands go up.
My daughter is currently taking honor's English at the high school (horrid program) and
they expect essays but never teach them how to write them. Disgutsing.
Julie B
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@m...>
wrote:
>
> On Sep 6, 2004, at 8:51 PM, Laura Johnson wrote:
>
> > This question came up with a friend the other day and I wasn't sure of
> > the answer myself. How do you help them prepare for formal
> > instruction in general?
>
> I've helped a few unschooled kids learn to put together a 5-paragraph
> essay. This was because they wanted to take the CHSPE - California High
> School Proficiency Exam. Passing this exam gives them a high school
> diploma from the State of California. It isn't necessary for
> homeschoolers in California to do this - one of my kids did it and the
> next doesn't think she's going to do it - but it is one way to be able
> to say you've "graduated" and that gets them out of having to go to the
> local high school and get a work permit and it also gives them
> unlimited access to the community college.
>
> Anyway - I've taught several kids how to write an essay. It probably
> took about 30 minutes for them to listen to me describe what it would
> look like, read a couple of examples, and write a couple of quick ones
> of their own. Certainly took less than an hour for that whole process.
>
> I AM a college professor, by the way, and I don't see many incoming
> freshmen who know much about writing. If I want any particular format,
> I explain it to them myself.
>
> One of my daughters took a History of Opera class - that was the first
> time she was expected to write anything for a class - never wrote an
> essay before in her life for any kind of class. I told her to just
> write an opening paragraph and a closing paragraph and in between write
> what she wanted to write about the subject and then divide that up into
> paragraphs to make it easier to follow. She got an A.
>
> Learning to write an essay in English Comp class as a college freshman
> isn't a bad time to learn, either, in my opinion.
>
> "Just in time learning" is great. Learning when there is an obvious
> reason to learn is far more effective than just generally being
> prepared for some nebulous thing like "going to college" which is
> someday, maybe, in the future.
>
> -pam
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
pam sorooshian
On Sep 7, 2004, at 7:33 AM, Julie Bogart wrote:
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> At the university level, the biggest problem my husband hasAin't it the truth, ain't it the truth.
> encountered in his writing
> classes is an inability to think.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Danielle Conger
At the university level, the biggest problem my husband has encountered in his writing
classes is an inability to think. Most students think they need to find someone else's
thoughts to hijack into their writing. They haven't discovered how to interact directly with
material themselves.
*********************
My mother is a College English prof, and she said exactly the same thing. SHe also said that the writing has poor grammar and sentence structure.
Kristen
==========
I'll second this! I taught intro and advanced writing at Penn State main campus for 6 years, and much of the writing was abysmal. And PSU main campus is really hard to get into.
<>--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
classes is an inability to think. Most students think they need to find someone else's
thoughts to hijack into their writing. They haven't discovered how to interact directly with
material themselves.
*********************
My mother is a College English prof, and she said exactly the same thing. SHe also said that the writing has poor grammar and sentence structure.
Kristen
==========
I'll second this! I taught intro and advanced writing at Penn State main campus for 6 years, and much of the writing was abysmal. And PSU main campus is really hard to get into.
<>--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
Have a Nice Day!
My daughter is currently taking honor's English at the high school (horrid program) and
they expect essays but never teach them how to write them. Disgutsing.
******************
I love it (sarcastic smirk). And I'm sure the standard answer is "You should know this by now" or "You should have been taught this by now".
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they expect essays but never teach them how to write them. Disgutsing.
******************
I love it (sarcastic smirk). And I'm sure the standard answer is "You should know this by now" or "You should have been taught this by now".
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
Danielle,
Where do you live? You're not in PA now are you?
My mom teaches at PSU Berks campus, Millersville U, HACC, and Leb Valley. I forget, but I think of all the places, PSU was the worst because it was mostly all kids. The other places had some kids and some adult learners.
Isn't that interesting...hmmmmm.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Where do you live? You're not in PA now are you?
My mom teaches at PSU Berks campus, Millersville U, HACC, and Leb Valley. I forget, but I think of all the places, PSU was the worst because it was mostly all kids. The other places had some kids and some adult learners.
Isn't that interesting...hmmmmm.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
Danielle,
Where do you live? You're not in PA now are you?
My mom teaches at PSU Berks campus, Millersville U, HACC, and Leb Valley. I forget, but I think of all the places, PSU was the worst because it was mostly all kids. The other places had some kids and some adult learners.
Isn't that interesting...hmmmmm.
Kristen
=============
No, I'm in Maryland now.
I *loved* my adult learners, those on the GI bill, kids paying their way
after a year or so off on their own--these folks thought about things
and had something to *say*. They weren't there just to be like everyone
else and think like everyone else.
<>--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
Where do you live? You're not in PA now are you?
My mom teaches at PSU Berks campus, Millersville U, HACC, and Leb Valley. I forget, but I think of all the places, PSU was the worst because it was mostly all kids. The other places had some kids and some adult learners.
Isn't that interesting...hmmmmm.
Kristen
=============
No, I'm in Maryland now.
I *loved* my adult learners, those on the GI bill, kids paying their way
after a year or so off on their own--these folks thought about things
and had something to *say*. They weren't there just to be like everyone
else and think like everyone else.
<>--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
schooler is taught timed writing either. It's a gaping hole in
education.
school. We did all sorts of grueling exercises that I looked back
on, even as early as a few months after graduation, and realized how
useful the tools we had developed in that class turned out to be for
college type stuff. We did timed writing - we'd show up in class,
put away everything except 2 sheets of paper and a pen, he'd write a
sentence or question on the board and we had 15 minutes to rough
draft and final draft a 5 paragraph essay on the topic sentence or
question, referencing materials we had read in class and elsewhere.
Phew those were rough - but then when I had 90 minutes to write an
essay for the placement exams at college (the day after I got back
from 10 days in Spain. Can you say "jet lag"? lol) I finished in
under 30 minutes, leisurely, and went out to catch up with my folks
who were touring around the campus. We also did precis writing -
turning 5 paragraphs into 5 to 10 sentences without losing the sense
of the essay. That usually took a series of rewrites, each shorter
than the last (in half, half, half again ...). You'd never know it
by my posts (lol) but I got really good at that. I found it a unique
challenge, like a jigsaw puzzle, to craft a paragraph or so that
conveyed an essay's worth of information.
That stuff actually did serve me in good stead in my first job -
working for a newsletter in a niche computer industry market,
abstracting articles and press releases for the boss to use in his
articles and later as a bylined writer in my own right. Much more
useful than anything else from high school or college. The rest was
mostly fluff and nonsense.
<julie@b...> wrote:
>period. It requires a unique set of skills. But don't worry. No high
> Timed writing is a bit different than writng an essay over a month
schooler is taught timed writing either. It's a gaping hole in
education.
>Alas, Mr. Karolcek is gone. He was my senior English teacher in high
school. We did all sorts of grueling exercises that I looked back
on, even as early as a few months after graduation, and realized how
useful the tools we had developed in that class turned out to be for
college type stuff. We did timed writing - we'd show up in class,
put away everything except 2 sheets of paper and a pen, he'd write a
sentence or question on the board and we had 15 minutes to rough
draft and final draft a 5 paragraph essay on the topic sentence or
question, referencing materials we had read in class and elsewhere.
Phew those were rough - but then when I had 90 minutes to write an
essay for the placement exams at college (the day after I got back
from 10 days in Spain. Can you say "jet lag"? lol) I finished in
under 30 minutes, leisurely, and went out to catch up with my folks
who were touring around the campus. We also did precis writing -
turning 5 paragraphs into 5 to 10 sentences without losing the sense
of the essay. That usually took a series of rewrites, each shorter
than the last (in half, half, half again ...). You'd never know it
by my posts (lol) but I got really good at that. I found it a unique
challenge, like a jigsaw puzzle, to craft a paragraph or so that
conveyed an essay's worth of information.
That stuff actually did serve me in good stead in my first job -
working for a newsletter in a niche computer industry market,
abstracting articles and press releases for the boss to use in his
articles and later as a bylined writer in my own right. Much more
useful than anything else from high school or college. The rest was
mostly fluff and nonsense.
Robyn Coburn
<<<<Timed writing is a bit different than writng an essay over a month
period. It requires a unique set of skills. But don't worry. No high
schooler is taught timed writing either. It's a
gaping hole in education.>>>
They do in Australia, or at least they did 25 years ago when I sat for the
Higher School Certificate - both the equivalent of the High School Diploma
and the State wide matriculation/college admission exam. It was *all* timed
essays in all the liberal arts subjects, and the math was all problems that
required a couple of pages to write all the steps to solve. I loved taking
exams. We spent a lot of time doing practice exams also.
I was astonished when I came here to see the SAT and other standardized
tests were all multiple choice - it seems so absurd and ridiculous. That
kind of test had been phased out as I went through high school in the 70's
in Australia.
I know a lot more now about unschooling and am now anti-testing at all, but
when I was first looking askance at the education system here, when Jayn was
a baby, this kind of daft testing was one of things that led me to
homeschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004
period. It requires a unique set of skills. But don't worry. No high
schooler is taught timed writing either. It's a
gaping hole in education.>>>
They do in Australia, or at least they did 25 years ago when I sat for the
Higher School Certificate - both the equivalent of the High School Diploma
and the State wide matriculation/college admission exam. It was *all* timed
essays in all the liberal arts subjects, and the math was all problems that
required a couple of pages to write all the steps to solve. I loved taking
exams. We spent a lot of time doing practice exams also.
I was astonished when I came here to see the SAT and other standardized
tests were all multiple choice - it seems so absurd and ridiculous. That
kind of test had been phased out as I went through high school in the 70's
in Australia.
I know a lot more now about unschooling and am now anti-testing at all, but
when I was first looking askance at the education system here, when Jayn was
a baby, this kind of daft testing was one of things that led me to
homeschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/7/04 1:22:15 PM, debra.rossing@... writes:
<< Timed writing is a bit different than writng an essay over a month
period. It requires a unique set of skills. But don't worry. No high
schooler is taught timed writing either. It's a gaping hole in
education. >>
There is a kind of writing schools never teach or use, but I learned it in
school, and my kids have learned it. That is...
Real-time writing. <g>
In school we wrote notes to each other, quick, tiny, and passed
surreptitiously.
My kids all use Instant Messages on the computer, for chatting or for role
playing, and that's a kind of real writing that's immediate, helps them become
quicker and clearer, and it doesn't feel like "writing practice."
Message boards are that way for some people (others compose carefully and
revise).
E-mail lists are that way for lots of people. <g>
Sandra
<< Timed writing is a bit different than writng an essay over a month
period. It requires a unique set of skills. But don't worry. No high
schooler is taught timed writing either. It's a gaping hole in
education. >>
There is a kind of writing schools never teach or use, but I learned it in
school, and my kids have learned it. That is...
Real-time writing. <g>
In school we wrote notes to each other, quick, tiny, and passed
surreptitiously.
My kids all use Instant Messages on the computer, for chatting or for role
playing, and that's a kind of real writing that's immediate, helps them become
quicker and clearer, and it doesn't feel like "writing practice."
Message boards are that way for some people (others compose carefully and
revise).
E-mail lists are that way for lots of people. <g>
Sandra
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
whole new field of writers) and it excites me that it bypasses the school system,
publishers and any other gatekeepers of the written word.
Julie B
>That's why I love the Internet. It's creating a whole new attitude toward writing (and a
> My kids all use Instant Messages on the computer, for chatting or for role
> playing, and that's a kind of real writing that's immediate, helps them become
> quicker and clearer, and it doesn't feel like "writing practice."
>
> Message boards are that way for some people (others compose carefully and
> revise).
> E-mail lists are that way for lots of people. <g>
whole new field of writers) and it excites me that it bypasses the school system,
publishers and any other gatekeepers of the written word.
Julie B
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
There's computerese (which I'm convinced will be studied as a language in about thirty
years and thereby deemed "real") and then there's standard English.
I tell my students to use standard English for final products that will be enjoyed in print or
are meant to outlast the rapid fire pace of IM and email. But for interacting with each other
or me with quick questions, their computerese is perfectly acceptable.
What's cool is that kids can go back and forth between the two a lot more easily than many
mothers fear. Some can't but that's usually because they aren't readers.
And one last little thought (I was thinking about this earlier)...
Taking a writing course can be every bit as invigorating as art or music lessons. The
trouble is that there are so many bad writing courses/programs out there. If you or your
children have the opportunity to grow as writers with the support and guidance of a
professional writer, the experience is invigorating and energizing, not tedious and
scholastic.
Writing is not just a means of self-expression, but an art form that has both inspiration
and craft elements.
Julie B
>I forgot to add, in my classes online I distinguish between two languages for writing.
> My kids all use Instant Messages on the computer, for chatting or for role
> playing, and that's a kind of real writing that's immediate, helps them become
> quicker and clearer, and it doesn't feel like "writing practice."
>
> Message boards are that way for some people (others compose carefully and
> revise).
> E-mail lists are that way for lots of people. <g>
There's computerese (which I'm convinced will be studied as a language in about thirty
years and thereby deemed "real") and then there's standard English.
I tell my students to use standard English for final products that will be enjoyed in print or
are meant to outlast the rapid fire pace of IM and email. But for interacting with each other
or me with quick questions, their computerese is perfectly acceptable.
What's cool is that kids can go back and forth between the two a lot more easily than many
mothers fear. Some can't but that's usually because they aren't readers.
And one last little thought (I was thinking about this earlier)...
Taking a writing course can be every bit as invigorating as art or music lessons. The
trouble is that there are so many bad writing courses/programs out there. If you or your
children have the opportunity to grow as writers with the support and guidance of a
professional writer, the experience is invigorating and energizing, not tedious and
scholastic.
Writing is not just a means of self-expression, but an art form that has both inspiration
and craft elements.
Julie B
pam sorooshian
On Sep 7, 2004, at 6:57 PM, Julie Bogart wrote:
Has gone back to it a few times and recommends it to all her friends.
<http://www.secretschool.com/>
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Taking a writing course can be every bit as invigorating as art orMy oldest daughter, sign up with "Secret School" and really enjoyed it.
> music lessons. The
> trouble is that there are so many bad writing courses/programs out
> there. If you or your
> children have the opportunity to grow as writers with the support and
> guidance of a
> professional writer, the experience is invigorating and energizing,
> not tedious and
> scholastic.
Has gone back to it a few times and recommends it to all her friends.
<http://www.secretschool.com/>
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/04 10:18:11 PM, lauraj2@... writes:
<< I'm wondering, is it possible to help a child prepare for college or even
some standardized test they may have to take in regards to formal writing in
an unschooling way. I know that I didn't really learn to write a good "paper"
until I went to college. >>
Kirby and I had a session on commas yesterday. He's planning to take the
GED in the next few months, and he had written me an e-mail several paragraphs
long in which I noted he wasn't using any commas. He did seem to know where
commas should be, though, because he would capitalize the word following each
needed comma. Good start!
That was a few weeks back, and I started a little collection on the computer
of good examples of comma use, ambiguous sentences where a comma would clear
things up, and a few bad examples. I folded down a page in Nicholas Nickleby
but forgot to show him that.
We went through those collected examples and he knew every time what would
make the sentence better. So it was maybe a fifteen minute "lesson," when he
asked for help, and it's done. It was a polish job on something he already
instinctively understood, and I was able to say things people just don't bother
to say to nine or ten year olds who are memorizing rules about how to use
commas in series, or how to use commas to combine two short sentences. I didn't
talk about clauses, either. I said they're indicators to show vocal
inflection, and if he considered the comma as a change of tone, it would make the
sentence easier to read.
In the heyday of English grammar, the late 19th century and early 20th, I
don't think many formal grammarians would have agreed with me. There was a time
in there when written English was almost a separate language, with its own
rules, and the way to understand written English was to diagram sentences and
conjugate verbs. Then people tried to speak as though they were reading from a
book, to seem "cultured."
Kirby is living in the 21st century, not the 19th. I started school in the
1950's, when the books were written and some of the classes still taught by
people who were born in the 19th century, and it sometimes seemed the brakes were
on for education NOT to change in any way, but if anything to go back to 19th
century values.
The 60's wreaked some havoc on that (I was in public school from 1958 to
1970, only going for 11 years to some friends' thirteen), and writing spoken
English down became much more accepted.
Mark Twain had written that way, and many other authors, but they were
considered exceptions to the way writing really should be, by some.
So in an essay for a GED, I think Kirby would do well to use his own voice
instead of a stilted "formal writing" voice. My mother-in-law and even my
husband will write letters in a voice that's not their own at all.
When children just know instinctively whether something is wrong or right, in
their own native language, that has a name: native speaker's intuition.
Because Kirby has read English too, now, for nine or ten years, he has a native
reader's intuition, as it were, about punctuation. All it needs is a little
touch-up and practice for him to turn around and write back.
He has been writing e-mails and instant messages for some time, but IMs have
their own rules, and that's fine. There was a time when lots of people could
read, understand, and maybe immitate the language of telegraphed messages,
where people were paying by the letter. There times I've seen the abbreviations
of singles ads used in other contexts.
Z** Those who don't ever look in the backs of those newspapers aimed at
young adults might not get them at all, but they might understand similar
shorthand in real estate ads. All those are real too, but not formal full-on,
whole-word English.
-=-If you realize your child is college bound, how can you help them learn
formal writing, so they don't go into it not knowing how to follow a scripted
planned paper. -=-
Offer to help by e-mail if your teen needs help away from home.
Suggest internet sites on essay writing.
But it's really, truly not necessary to practice beforehand on something like
writing an essay. If the professor gives an outline/script, then the
student follows it. If he just says "essay" and that word is new to the student,
google.com is right at hand.
Sandra
<< I'm wondering, is it possible to help a child prepare for college or even
some standardized test they may have to take in regards to formal writing in
an unschooling way. I know that I didn't really learn to write a good "paper"
until I went to college. >>
Kirby and I had a session on commas yesterday. He's planning to take the
GED in the next few months, and he had written me an e-mail several paragraphs
long in which I noted he wasn't using any commas. He did seem to know where
commas should be, though, because he would capitalize the word following each
needed comma. Good start!
That was a few weeks back, and I started a little collection on the computer
of good examples of comma use, ambiguous sentences where a comma would clear
things up, and a few bad examples. I folded down a page in Nicholas Nickleby
but forgot to show him that.
We went through those collected examples and he knew every time what would
make the sentence better. So it was maybe a fifteen minute "lesson," when he
asked for help, and it's done. It was a polish job on something he already
instinctively understood, and I was able to say things people just don't bother
to say to nine or ten year olds who are memorizing rules about how to use
commas in series, or how to use commas to combine two short sentences. I didn't
talk about clauses, either. I said they're indicators to show vocal
inflection, and if he considered the comma as a change of tone, it would make the
sentence easier to read.
In the heyday of English grammar, the late 19th century and early 20th, I
don't think many formal grammarians would have agreed with me. There was a time
in there when written English was almost a separate language, with its own
rules, and the way to understand written English was to diagram sentences and
conjugate verbs. Then people tried to speak as though they were reading from a
book, to seem "cultured."
Kirby is living in the 21st century, not the 19th. I started school in the
1950's, when the books were written and some of the classes still taught by
people who were born in the 19th century, and it sometimes seemed the brakes were
on for education NOT to change in any way, but if anything to go back to 19th
century values.
The 60's wreaked some havoc on that (I was in public school from 1958 to
1970, only going for 11 years to some friends' thirteen), and writing spoken
English down became much more accepted.
Mark Twain had written that way, and many other authors, but they were
considered exceptions to the way writing really should be, by some.
So in an essay for a GED, I think Kirby would do well to use his own voice
instead of a stilted "formal writing" voice. My mother-in-law and even my
husband will write letters in a voice that's not their own at all.
When children just know instinctively whether something is wrong or right, in
their own native language, that has a name: native speaker's intuition.
Because Kirby has read English too, now, for nine or ten years, he has a native
reader's intuition, as it were, about punctuation. All it needs is a little
touch-up and practice for him to turn around and write back.
He has been writing e-mails and instant messages for some time, but IMs have
their own rules, and that's fine. There was a time when lots of people could
read, understand, and maybe immitate the language of telegraphed messages,
where people were paying by the letter. There times I've seen the abbreviations
of singles ads used in other contexts.
Z** Those who don't ever look in the backs of those newspapers aimed at
young adults might not get them at all, but they might understand similar
shorthand in real estate ads. All those are real too, but not formal full-on,
whole-word English.
-=-If you realize your child is college bound, how can you help them learn
formal writing, so they don't go into it not knowing how to follow a scripted
planned paper. -=-
Offer to help by e-mail if your teen needs help away from home.
Suggest internet sites on essay writing.
But it's really, truly not necessary to practice beforehand on something like
writing an essay. If the professor gives an outline/script, then the
student follows it. If he just says "essay" and that word is new to the student,
google.com is right at hand.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/04 10:18:11 PM, lauraj2@... writes:
<< I'm wondering, is it possible to help a child prepare for college or even
some standardized test they may have to take in regards to formal writing in
an unschooling way. I know that I didn't really learn to write a good "paper"
until I went to college. >>
Kirby and I had a session on commas yesterday. He's planning to take the
GED in the next few months, and he had written me an e-mail several paragraphs
long in which I noted he wasn't using any commas. He did seem to know where
commas should be, though, because he would capitalize the word following each
needed comma. Good start!
That was a few weeks back, and I started a little collection on the computer
of good examples of comma use, ambiguous sentences where a comma would clear
things up, and a few bad examples. I folded down a page in Nicholas Nickleby
but forgot to show him that.
We went through those collected examples and he knew every time what would
make the sentence better. So it was maybe a fifteen minute "lesson," when he
asked for help, and it's done. It was a polish job on something he already
instinctively understood, and I was able to say things people just don't bother
to say to nine or ten year olds who are memorizing rules about how to use
commas in series, or how to use commas to combine two short sentences. I didn't
talk about clauses, either. I said they're indicators to show vocal
inflection, and if he considered the comma as a change of tone, it would make the
sentence easier to read.
In the heyday of English grammar, the late 19th century and early 20th, I
don't think many formal grammarians would have agreed with me. There was a time
in there when written English was almost a separate language, with its own
rules, and the way to understand written English was to diagram sentences and
conjugate verbs. Then people tried to speak as though they were reading from a
book, to seem "cultured."
Kirby is living in the 21st century, not the 19th. I started school in the
1950's, when the books were written and some of the classes still taught by
people who were born in the 19th century, and it sometimes seemed the brakes were
on for education NOT to change in any way, but if anything to go back to 19th
century values.
The 60's wreaked some havoc on that (I was in public school from 1958 to
1970, only going for 11 years to some friends' thirteen), and writing spoken
English down became much more accepted.
Mark Twain had written that way, and many other authors, but they were
considered exceptions to the way writing really should be, by some.
So in an essay for a GED, I think Kirby would do well to use his own voice
instead of a stilted "formal writing" voice. My mother-in-law and even my
husband will write letters in a voice that's not their own at all.
When children just know instinctively whether something is wrong or right, in
their own native language, that has a name: native speaker's intuition.
Because Kirby has read English too, now, for nine or ten years, he has a native
reader's intuition, as it were, about punctuation. All it needs is a little
touch-up and practice for him to turn around and write back.
He has been writing e-mails and instant messages for some time, but IMs have
their own rules, and that's fine. There was a time when lots of people could
read, understand, and maybe immitate the language of telegraphed messages,
where people were paying by the letter. There are times I've seen the
abbreviations of singles ads used in other contexts. Those who don't ever look in the
backs of those newspapers aimed at young adults might not get them at all, but
they might understand similar shorthand in real estate ads. All those are
real too, but not formal full-on, whole-word English.
-=-If you realize your child is college bound, how can you help them learn
formal writing, so they don't go into it not knowing how to follow a scripted
planned paper. -=-
Offer to help by e-mail if your teen needs help away from home.
Suggest internet sites on essay writing.
But it's really, truly not necessary to practice beforehand on something like
writing an essay. If the professor gives an outline/script, then the
student follows it. If he just says "essay" and that word is new to the student,
google.com is right at hand.
Related story from last night: My sister called. She's 47 years old.
She's changing jobs, and is gong to work at a bank. She'll be a teller first but
they're training her for a management kind of thing. She doesn't type. She
never wanted to. She has resisted the internet and e-mail. Now she's
interested in moving quickly toward all that.
She got Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing and has been going through that. I told
her she should just get an e-mail account and start writing to me, and her
kids (who are in two different places now, and none with her fulltime). I told
her to download instant messenger and I'd write with her and she would get
fast.
She said she wanted to get fast first, before she tried instant message. I
told her it was a more real way to get fast than Mavis Beacon. We'll see.
Sandra
<< I'm wondering, is it possible to help a child prepare for college or even
some standardized test they may have to take in regards to formal writing in
an unschooling way. I know that I didn't really learn to write a good "paper"
until I went to college. >>
Kirby and I had a session on commas yesterday. He's planning to take the
GED in the next few months, and he had written me an e-mail several paragraphs
long in which I noted he wasn't using any commas. He did seem to know where
commas should be, though, because he would capitalize the word following each
needed comma. Good start!
That was a few weeks back, and I started a little collection on the computer
of good examples of comma use, ambiguous sentences where a comma would clear
things up, and a few bad examples. I folded down a page in Nicholas Nickleby
but forgot to show him that.
We went through those collected examples and he knew every time what would
make the sentence better. So it was maybe a fifteen minute "lesson," when he
asked for help, and it's done. It was a polish job on something he already
instinctively understood, and I was able to say things people just don't bother
to say to nine or ten year olds who are memorizing rules about how to use
commas in series, or how to use commas to combine two short sentences. I didn't
talk about clauses, either. I said they're indicators to show vocal
inflection, and if he considered the comma as a change of tone, it would make the
sentence easier to read.
In the heyday of English grammar, the late 19th century and early 20th, I
don't think many formal grammarians would have agreed with me. There was a time
in there when written English was almost a separate language, with its own
rules, and the way to understand written English was to diagram sentences and
conjugate verbs. Then people tried to speak as though they were reading from a
book, to seem "cultured."
Kirby is living in the 21st century, not the 19th. I started school in the
1950's, when the books were written and some of the classes still taught by
people who were born in the 19th century, and it sometimes seemed the brakes were
on for education NOT to change in any way, but if anything to go back to 19th
century values.
The 60's wreaked some havoc on that (I was in public school from 1958 to
1970, only going for 11 years to some friends' thirteen), and writing spoken
English down became much more accepted.
Mark Twain had written that way, and many other authors, but they were
considered exceptions to the way writing really should be, by some.
So in an essay for a GED, I think Kirby would do well to use his own voice
instead of a stilted "formal writing" voice. My mother-in-law and even my
husband will write letters in a voice that's not their own at all.
When children just know instinctively whether something is wrong or right, in
their own native language, that has a name: native speaker's intuition.
Because Kirby has read English too, now, for nine or ten years, he has a native
reader's intuition, as it were, about punctuation. All it needs is a little
touch-up and practice for him to turn around and write back.
He has been writing e-mails and instant messages for some time, but IMs have
their own rules, and that's fine. There was a time when lots of people could
read, understand, and maybe immitate the language of telegraphed messages,
where people were paying by the letter. There are times I've seen the
abbreviations of singles ads used in other contexts. Those who don't ever look in the
backs of those newspapers aimed at young adults might not get them at all, but
they might understand similar shorthand in real estate ads. All those are
real too, but not formal full-on, whole-word English.
-=-If you realize your child is college bound, how can you help them learn
formal writing, so they don't go into it not knowing how to follow a scripted
planned paper. -=-
Offer to help by e-mail if your teen needs help away from home.
Suggest internet sites on essay writing.
But it's really, truly not necessary to practice beforehand on something like
writing an essay. If the professor gives an outline/script, then the
student follows it. If he just says "essay" and that word is new to the student,
google.com is right at hand.
Related story from last night: My sister called. She's 47 years old.
She's changing jobs, and is gong to work at a bank. She'll be a teller first but
they're training her for a management kind of thing. She doesn't type. She
never wanted to. She has resisted the internet and e-mail. Now she's
interested in moving quickly toward all that.
She got Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing and has been going through that. I told
her she should just get an e-mail account and start writing to me, and her
kids (who are in two different places now, and none with her fulltime). I told
her to download instant messenger and I'd write with her and she would get
fast.
She said she wanted to get fast first, before she tried instant message. I
told her it was a more real way to get fast than Mavis Beacon. We'll see.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/7/04 7:46:11 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< In the meantime, writing a story is way more important than a book report.
come here and tell people I've read something cool, or I've found a webpage and
I give the highlights and recommend it to people, or when I write a review on
Amazon.com (which I've only done a time or three).
I write an essay pretty often. But stories as in fictional stories, I don't
think I've done since fourth grade.
Stories as in accounts of my day are more like reports. It's a kind of
journalism if it's factual for the use of others (such as the account of helping
Kirby with commas), or more essay style with personal commentary, as many longer
posts here tend toward.
I've always been more drawn to non-fiction than to fiction, though. So I
don't get a warm fuzzy feeling about encouraging kids to write fiction.
I've seen some things my boys have written in role-playing games. That's a
VERY interesting blend of conversation and fiction. They write in the persona
of their character.
Sandra
<< In the meantime, writing a story is way more important than a book report.
>>I've never been a story writer, but I still make book reports every time I
come here and tell people I've read something cool, or I've found a webpage and
I give the highlights and recommend it to people, or when I write a review on
Amazon.com (which I've only done a time or three).
I write an essay pretty often. But stories as in fictional stories, I don't
think I've done since fourth grade.
Stories as in accounts of my day are more like reports. It's a kind of
journalism if it's factual for the use of others (such as the account of helping
Kirby with commas), or more essay style with personal commentary, as many longer
posts here tend toward.
I've always been more drawn to non-fiction than to fiction, though. So I
don't get a warm fuzzy feeling about encouraging kids to write fiction.
I've seen some things my boys have written in role-playing games. That's a
VERY interesting blend of conversation and fiction. They write in the persona
of their character.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/8/2004 11:37:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
When children just know instinctively whether something is wrong or right,
in
their own native language, that has a name: native speaker's intuition.
<<<<
I agree, in theory. But a person will say things like, "to my husband and I"
or "I don't know IF I can come"----and it SOUNDS right to them because
that's how her mom and teachers (ugh!) and friends say it----OVER-correcting
something that's not even wrong! I'm sure there's a term for that; I just don't
know it.
But to her ear, it SOUNDS right.
Yeah, languages evolve, but native speaker's intuition isn't always correct.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
When children just know instinctively whether something is wrong or right,
in
their own native language, that has a name: native speaker's intuition.
<<<<
I agree, in theory. But a person will say things like, "to my husband and I"
or "I don't know IF I can come"----and it SOUNDS right to them because
that's how her mom and teachers (ugh!) and friends say it----OVER-correcting
something that's not even wrong! I'm sure there's a term for that; I just don't
know it.
But to her ear, it SOUNDS right.
Yeah, languages evolve, but native speaker's intuition isn't always correct.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/7/04 8:35:28 AM, julie@... writes:
<< I'd say, as they get ready for college applications, they can talk about
how to tackle that
test. >>
They can also be reassured that they don't have to ACE the test, they just
need to pass it. For an unschooler to pass one of those tests without special
preparation is impressive enough in my mind. The homeschooled kids I know
who've taken the GED didn't take the prep classes, they just looked at sample
questions on the internet or borrowed a book and went for it. They're doing
high 90's on the reading things (and science and history sections seem to be
reading, not real science or real pre-existing knowledge of history).
We got a book about the math section of the GED, and while it's intimidating
to Kirby I reminded him he doesn't need to "get a good grade" on it, he needs
to pass. What Kirby needs is terminology. On our swift pass through
mathematical notation and lingo, we came up with a short list of terms he didnt' know b
ut might need to to understand test questions. One he knew because he's
good at English: bisect.
He knows "bi-" is two and "sect" is cut.
I talked to him about the concept of a line and a point and showed him how
they're marked, and that the mark isn't the line, but the line is the idea. So
there is no "fat line" except in the picture of a line. He got that easily.
The rest of the list:
sum
product
expression
equation
variable
function
formula
borrowing
carrying
long division
He understands mathematical concepts themselves (without their formal names)
the same way he understood commas. It was pretty cool to talk to him about
those things, and in the process I talked to him a bit about unschooling
itself. Of all my kids, he has cared the least to ask why we're doing what we're
doing. He's glad he didn't go to school, but he doesn't have a clear model of
what he DID do.
Sandra
<< I'd say, as they get ready for college applications, they can talk about
how to tackle that
test. >>
They can also be reassured that they don't have to ACE the test, they just
need to pass it. For an unschooler to pass one of those tests without special
preparation is impressive enough in my mind. The homeschooled kids I know
who've taken the GED didn't take the prep classes, they just looked at sample
questions on the internet or borrowed a book and went for it. They're doing
high 90's on the reading things (and science and history sections seem to be
reading, not real science or real pre-existing knowledge of history).
We got a book about the math section of the GED, and while it's intimidating
to Kirby I reminded him he doesn't need to "get a good grade" on it, he needs
to pass. What Kirby needs is terminology. On our swift pass through
mathematical notation and lingo, we came up with a short list of terms he didnt' know b
ut might need to to understand test questions. One he knew because he's
good at English: bisect.
He knows "bi-" is two and "sect" is cut.
I talked to him about the concept of a line and a point and showed him how
they're marked, and that the mark isn't the line, but the line is the idea. So
there is no "fat line" except in the picture of a line. He got that easily.
The rest of the list:
sum
product
expression
equation
variable
function
formula
borrowing
carrying
long division
He understands mathematical concepts themselves (without their formal names)
the same way he understood commas. It was pretty cool to talk to him about
those things, and in the process I talked to him a bit about unschooling
itself. Of all my kids, he has cared the least to ask why we're doing what we're
doing. He's glad he didn't go to school, but he doesn't have a clear model of
what he DID do.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/7/04 9:26:55 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< I told her to just
write an opening paragraph and a closing paragraph and in between write
what she wanted to write about the subject and then divide that up into
paragraphs to make it easier to follow. She got an A. >>
The GED is a three-paragraph essay, and I told Kirby and a couple of his
friends that by that they meant write one paragraph telling them what you're going
to say, one saying it, and one summarizing what you'd said. It was kind of
a joke, but it's also the truth. <g>
They're all good enough at thinking and communicating that they knew what I
meant.
Of the two who've already taken it, one was in school until 8th grade, so
he's done formal writing. One did fairly poorly on the writing section, but he
passed. Kirby, still to be determined. I'm not worried. If he fails it he
can take it again. He's not grade-trained like the Pavlov report-card dog I
was.
Sandra
<< I told her to just
write an opening paragraph and a closing paragraph and in between write
what she wanted to write about the subject and then divide that up into
paragraphs to make it easier to follow. She got an A. >>
The GED is a three-paragraph essay, and I told Kirby and a couple of his
friends that by that they meant write one paragraph telling them what you're going
to say, one saying it, and one summarizing what you'd said. It was kind of
a joke, but it's also the truth. <g>
They're all good enough at thinking and communicating that they knew what I
meant.
Of the two who've already taken it, one was in school until 8th grade, so
he's done formal writing. One did fairly poorly on the writing section, but he
passed. Kirby, still to be determined. I'm not worried. If he fails it he
can take it again. He's not grade-trained like the Pavlov report-card dog I
was.
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
This was very helpful to me Sandra. I'm going to show it to my son. He still says he's "not good at math". He said so yesterday.
I asked him what he meant. His response was "I'm not bad at math, but I'm not particularly good at it either". Thats a big improvement from a few years ago, at least he doesn't think he is "stupid" anymore. Instead, he said "I'm good at math in my head, I'm just not good at it on paper". That would be a much more accurate statement than what he used to say.
And then I asked him if he liked computer programming (something he's been dabbling in), and he said he doesn't know how to do it.
When I asked him if he thought he could *learn* how to do it, he said yes.
My son has always been a perfectionist, expecting himself to just know things without the process of learning them. He has this unrealistic idea that everyone else just "knows" these things and he doesn't. It creates a lot of anxiety for him.
I think to make the distinction that you don't have to "know" it, but you can "learn" it anytime you want is important for him.
Kristen
I asked him what he meant. His response was "I'm not bad at math, but I'm not particularly good at it either". Thats a big improvement from a few years ago, at least he doesn't think he is "stupid" anymore. Instead, he said "I'm good at math in my head, I'm just not good at it on paper". That would be a much more accurate statement than what he used to say.
And then I asked him if he liked computer programming (something he's been dabbling in), and he said he doesn't know how to do it.
When I asked him if he thought he could *learn* how to do it, he said yes.
My son has always been a perfectionist, expecting himself to just know things without the process of learning them. He has this unrealistic idea that everyone else just "knows" these things and he doesn't. It creates a lot of anxiety for him.
I think to make the distinction that you don't have to "know" it, but you can "learn" it anytime you want is important for him.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: a question about formal writing & unschooling
In a message dated 9/7/04 8:35:28 AM, julie@... writes:
<< I'd say, as they get ready for college applications, they can talk about
how to tackle that
test. >>
They can also be reassured that they don't have to ACE the test, they just
need to pass it. For an unschooler to pass one of those tests without special
preparation is impressive enough in my mind. The homeschooled kids I know
who've taken the GED didn't take the prep classes, they just looked at sample
questions on the internet or borrowed a book and went for it. They're doing
high 90's on the reading things (and science and history sections seem to be
reading, not real science or real pre-existing knowledge of history).
We got a book about the math section of the GED, and while it's intimidating
to Kirby I reminded him he doesn't need to "get a good grade" on it, he needs
to pass. What Kirby needs is terminology. On our swift pass through
mathematical notation and lingo, we came up with a short list of terms he didnt' know b
ut might need to to understand test questions. One he knew because he's
good at English: bisect.
He knows "bi-" is two and "sect" is cut.
I talked to him about the concept of a line and a point and showed him how
they're marked, and that the mark isn't the line, but the line is the idea. So
there is no "fat line" except in the picture of a line. He got that easily.
The rest of the list:
sum
product
expression
equation
variable
function
formula
borrowing
carrying
long division
He understands mathematical concepts themselves (without their formal names)
the same way he understood commas. It was pretty cool to talk to him about
those things, and in the process I talked to him a bit about unschooling
itself. Of all my kids, he has cared the least to ask why we're doing what we're
doing. He's glad he didn't go to school, but he doesn't have a clear model of
what he DID do.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/8/04 9:49:32 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< I agree, in theory. But a person will say things like, "to my husband and
I"
or "I don't know IF I can come"----and it SOUNDS right to them because
that's how her mom and teachers (ugh!) and friends say it >>
First thing, lack of verbal intelligence?
Second, if you mean "if" instead of "whether" or "that," it seems too
old-timey.
And there are arguments that "whether" has to come with "or not," as
"neither" pairs with "nor," but they're old-timey too. <g>
Language changes despite the resistance of conservatives and the joy of
artistic abusers. Because of the tension between the two, it changes at a slow
enough pace that most can keep up.
What bothers me most of recent changes is "their" as a substitute for "his"
or "her" (or "his or her"). It will bother me until I die, and after I die,
people will be born who have no idea what the fuss is about.
Sandra
<< I agree, in theory. But a person will say things like, "to my husband and
I"
or "I don't know IF I can come"----and it SOUNDS right to them because
that's how her mom and teachers (ugh!) and friends say it >>
First thing, lack of verbal intelligence?
Second, if you mean "if" instead of "whether" or "that," it seems too
old-timey.
And there are arguments that "whether" has to come with "or not," as
"neither" pairs with "nor," but they're old-timey too. <g>
Language changes despite the resistance of conservatives and the joy of
artistic abusers. Because of the tension between the two, it changes at a slow
enough pace that most can keep up.
What bothers me most of recent changes is "their" as a substitute for "his"
or "her" (or "his or her"). It will bother me until I die, and after I die,
people will be born who have no idea what the fuss is about.
Sandra
velvet jiang
>>What bothers me most of recent changes is "their" as a substitute foror "her" (or "his or her"). It will bother me until I die, and after I die,
>>"his"
people will be born who have no idea what the fuss is about<<
in cantonese chinese they have a work that means "that person". i have
always thought that it would be nice to have a word like that in english.
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
than the analogies and multiple choice testing. In those cases, it's not a matter of
"passing" but of scoring as well as possible.
Tonight at the high school, the teacher droned on about the format of the essay as
essential to good writing scores. He didn't even mention a single idea that his students
had written.
What elese is new?
Clearly the focus is going to be on the thesis statement, the organization and the use of
effective transitions.
So in that sense, these things need to be taught so that our kids will know what to do
when they write for those kinds of exams.
For an unschooler to pass one of those tests without special
irrelevant information prematurely.
And just to finish with writing... if we have children who are able to express themselves
with confidence and flair, then learning to put those ideas into a format isn't really that
difficult, especially when it's necessary.
Julie B
>I'm talking about the SAT and ACT portions that will now include the essay format rather
> In a message dated 9/7/04 8:35:28 AM, julie@b... writes:
>
> << I'd say, as they get ready for college applications, they can talk about
> how to tackle that
>
> test. >>
>
> They can also be reassured that they don't have to ACE the test, they just
> need to pass it.
than the analogies and multiple choice testing. In those cases, it's not a matter of
"passing" but of scoring as well as possible.
Tonight at the high school, the teacher droned on about the format of the essay as
essential to good writing scores. He didn't even mention a single idea that his students
had written.
What elese is new?
Clearly the focus is going to be on the thesis statement, the organization and the use of
effective transitions.
So in that sense, these things need to be taught so that our kids will know what to do
when they write for those kinds of exams.
For an unschooler to pass one of those tests without special
> preparation is impressive enough in my mind. The homeschooled kids I knowFor the GED, I believe it. For the SAT? We'll see. I sure hope so.
> who've taken the GED didn't take the prep classes, they just looked at sample
> questions on the internet or borrowed a book and went for it. They're doing
> high 90's on the reading things (and science and history sections seem to be
> reading, not real science or real pre-existing knowledge of history).
> I talked to him about the concept of a line and a point and showed him howThis is a great example of how "catching up" takes so much less time that teaching
> they're marked, and that the mark isn't the line, but the line is the idea. So
> there is no "fat line" except in the picture of a line. He got that easily.
>
> The rest of the list:
> sum
> product
> expression
> equation
> variable
> function
> formula
> borrowing
> carrying
> long division
>
> He understands mathematical concepts themselves (without their formal names)
> the same way he understood commas. It was pretty cool to talk to him about
> those things, and in the process I talked to him a bit about unschooling
> itself. Of all my kids, he has cared the least to ask why we're doing what we're
> doing. He's glad he didn't go to school, but he doesn't have a clear model of
> what he DID do.
>
irrelevant information prematurely.
And just to finish with writing... if we have children who are able to express themselves
with confidence and flair, then learning to put those ideas into a format isn't really that
difficult, especially when it's necessary.
Julie B