diana jenner

This is something I'm looking at right now... I much prefer that my house be
a mess and my children be in order, than the other way around. So I look at
my family's attitude toward cleaning ~ NONE of the adults in my local family
clean, ALL require it of their children and/or cleaning lady. My house is
actually on the clean side of the scale and it's sometimes a harrowing trip
thru the living room ~ past the happy laughing children, the lego
sculptures, drawings and newspapers (and now compounded by vacation schtuff
that has yet to find a home). What does cleaning look like in my house? A
pissy, grumpy, grumbling mommy from whom the children scatter like
chickens... who'd wanna help me? who'd want THAT job? If picking up the
house means a bad attitude, my children (and me for that matter) would
rather take their happy attitude right out of the house, as far from me as
possible. BUT, I assert, what *could* happen if I did it joyfully? What if
I found cleaning just as much a part of being their parent as giving birth?
My house would be clean (a relative term), I would practice joy and wonder,
my kids would want to be with me.... sounds like an amazing and attainable
goal.

**Commercial interruption: Sandra's Peaceful Parenting talk ~ WOW!! After
the conference, I found the tape to be a powerful reinforcement to what I
discovered about myself there ~ I imagine for those who didn't go to the
conference, you will find this conversation AMAZINGLY enlightening.
One point that really hit home for me, and one I am looking at deeply in my
daily life, is the practice of being ___________. The more time you spend
being/feeling __________, the more reinforced being ____________ is in your
life. Do I want to work out for the pissy, grumpy marathon with my kids? or
do I want to work out for the joyful wonder marathon? The choice is mine,
*I* choose how I invest my time and energy in my own *training* and it IS
contagous !!!!

-=-Just for today, choose JOY!!!-=-

~diana :)
For all that has been, I say THANKS!
For all that has yet to be, I say YES!

Have a Nice Day!

BUT, I assert, what *could* happen if I did it joyfully? What if
I found cleaning just as much a part of being their parent as giving birth?
My house would be clean (a relative term), I would practice joy and wonder,
my kids would want to be with me.... sounds like an amazing and attainable
goal.

**************************

I really really like this. It hit me like "Duh!, why didn't I think of that!".

My kids are a little older, and have already experienced cleaning as a drudgery. I think I will have a "family meeting" and ask the kids what they think we could do to make cleaning fun. If we all come up with some fun and silly ideas, I think that would really help to change everyone's attitude toward cleaning in general, and maybe I'd get my own needs met too.

Kristen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

One point that really hit home for me, and one I am looking at deeply in my
daily life, is the practice of being ___________. The more time you spend
being/feeling __________, the more reinforced being ____________ is in your
life. Do I want to work out for the pissy, grumpy marathon with my kids? or
do I want to work out for the joyful wonder marathon? The choice is mine,
*I* choose how I invest my time and energy in my own *training* and it IS
contagous !!!!
==========

<>
That was one of the neatest things about that performance art group at
the conference. I don't know how many people actually sat in on that--I
saw some, left, came back and caught the end. It was really incredibly
powerful at times.

At one point they had audience members share two different emotions they
had about unschooling, then two performance artists acted them out
together. One woman said her two emotions were "They can watch tv all
day!" like, cool! And, "They can wach tv all day!" like, how is that
okay after all I've been told? One performance artist had a pained,
screaming expression on her face while the other was happily munching
popcorn. In a quick, simple visual, it was so easy to see which parent
*I'd* want to look like.

--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

kayb85

> My kids are a little older, and have already experienced cleaning
as a drudgery. I think I will have a "family meeting" and ask the
kids what they think we could do to make cleaning fun. If we all
come up with some fun and silly ideas, I think that would really help
to change everyone's attitude toward cleaning in general, and maybe
I'd get my own needs met too.

I've given up the idea of making cleaning "fun". I must have tried
just about everything written online that is supposed to make
cleaning "fun". Maybe the first few times you play basketball with
toys or clothes to go into a laundry basket, or maybe the first few
times you pretend to iceskate on the floor with wet rags on your
feet, or maybe the first few times you have a contest to see who can
put away the most green things in 3 minutes is fun, but the novelty
dies off before too long. Then you're left with, "Eeewwww, this
stuff isn't fun and silly after all. It's just work".

So now I'm just concentrating on contentedly meeting the needs of my
family, and remembering that I love them and that I want to make
things peaceful and happy for them. And I'm not feeling like a
victim because I "have to" clean up. I'm mindfully reminding myself
every time I break a dish and have to sweet it up, or spill a drink,
or have to cut the grass that dealing with these things in life
doesn't make me a victim. They're not terrible, woeful things,
they're just a matter of fact part of life.

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/5/04 12:53:35 PM, sheran@... writes:

<< Then you're left with, "Eeewwww, this

stuff isn't fun and silly after all. It's just work". >>

The word "just" does a lot of damage in people's minds, I'm coming to believe.

When something has a good purpose, like putting the milk back in the
refrigerator or putting socks in the laundry basket or getting hair out of the shower
drain, it might help to picture the alternative and remind yourself you had a
choice. Then it's not fun or silly or work, it's making life better by choice.

Sandra

diana jenner

I wanted to say that I don't EVER expect cleaning to be fun, I 'm not going
to set myself up to be Mary Poppins, when indeed I will remain Diana.... the
distinction for me is doing drudgery with JOY and WONDER in my heart, on my
face and out my mouth. Someday I will be so caught up in happiness I will
forget I'm up to my elbows in soapsuds and unrinsed dishes ~ THAT is what
I'm looking for. Maybe the Mary Poppins in me will come out afterall, but
first, I've gotta practice <bg>

~diana :)

----- Original Message -----
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, 05 September, 2004 1:45 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: money & kids/cleaning


>
> > My kids are a little older, and have already experienced cleaning
> as a drudgery. I think I will have a "family meeting" and ask the
> kids what they think we could do to make cleaning fun. If we all
> come up with some fun and silly ideas, I think that would really help
> to change everyone's attitude toward cleaning in general, and maybe
> I'd get my own needs met too.
>
> I've given up the idea of making cleaning "fun". I must have tried
> just about everything written online that is supposed to make
> cleaning "fun". Maybe the first few times you play basketball with
> toys or clothes to go into a laundry basket, or maybe the first few
> times you pretend to iceskate on the floor with wet rags on your
> feet, or maybe the first few times you have a contest to see who can
> put away the most green things in 3 minutes is fun, but the novelty
> dies off before too long. Then you're left with, "Eeewwww, this
> stuff isn't fun and silly after all. It's just work".
>
> So now I'm just concentrating on contentedly meeting the needs of my
> family, and remembering that I love them and that I want to make
> things peaceful and happy for them. And I'm not feeling like a
> victim because I "have to" clean up. I'm mindfully reminding myself
> every time I break a dish and have to sweet it up, or spill a drink,
> or have to cut the grass that dealing with these things in life
> doesn't make me a victim. They're not terrible, woeful things,
> they're just a matter of fact part of life.
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Game-Enthusiast

Here's another idea for people who have a difficult time parting with stuff
for sentimental reasons. Take a picture of each thing and make a scrap
book. You'll still have the memories, but they'll take up much less space.
Make sure you get rid of the item after though. ;0)

Angela
game-enthusiast@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa H

RE: The ketchup on the floor incident. I've learned to circumvent
frustration on my part and obligation/embarassment/shame/hiding/sneaky
behavior on my 6yo childs part by reminding her when she brings messy food
into a room other than the kitchen the following..."if it spills call me
quickly and i'll help clean it up so that it doesn't leave a sticky mess."
And I DO this with smile on my face, just as I did when she learned to walk
or when she was trying to understand a new word or if she needed help
reading a new word or wiping her butt. I will help her carry something into
another room if i think she'll have trouble carrying it without spilling.
And when she eats in another room, if i am concerned about the carpet or
furniture, i lay down a drop cloth (old towel) under her plate or bowl
first. If my older dd leaves something behind or clothes on floor I'll ask
her when she's leaving the room if she would bring it into the other room.
She seems to easily recognize the choice in my request and will do it if she
doesn't mind.

It's taken me a while to find joy in cleaning. I've never been a neat/clean
person and am not a natural 'homemaker' type. Like Pam, I qualify as the
artist/organizer/social type of person.

I used to hate/resent washing dishes (we don't have dishwasher). Why was it
my job when everyone ate? (Specifically my dh) I've learned to only wash
when i feel like it. Gee he's not percieved as a slob (as i've felt like i
am) and he doesn't seem to do it unless he wants to. Yes that means that
there may be dishes in the sink in the morning when i get up.

If i begin to feel the slightest resentment in washing a dish or picking up
toys or putting away crafts, books, clothes, garbage, etc. I stop. If I
don't want to do it now i won't. Once i really gave myself permission to
NOT HAVE to clean cleaning became a helluva lot easier.

It also helps to put on some really good music. I will clean to the drum
beat of Gabrielle Roth or the jam of some good old fashion rock n
roll...punk rock can get me rockin as well.

"Be facinated by your hand, if you're not who will be " was a statement made
by Gabrielle Roth. This has allowed me to really enjoy washing dishes and
find the meditative peacefulness in the activity. How can I not enjoy an
activity that allows me the opportunity to appreciate myself/mybody?

One of the greatest freedoms i've felt in my life was when I realized i
wasn't cleaning for my mother. Boy did i feel emancipated and all grown up.

Out of respect for my dh's needs after working out of the house all day we
will attempt to leave one straightened room available for him when he comes
homes so he doesn't have to sit in alot of clutter.

I've also hired help for both cleaning and organizing. I have found that if
i have a scheduled appointment for a teenager to come over and help with me
with my "storage" room...then it will happen. It's so easy to put off
organizing my stuff.

Lisa Heyman

Elizabeth Hill

** I used to hate/resent washing dishes (we don't have dishwasher). Why
was it
my job when everyone ate?**

It might help our discussion if we recognize that housekeeping has
traditionally been a very low status activity, and that feeling like
it's a "lowly" job can be an attitude that makes doing it more
unpleasant. But, truthfully, many housekeeping tasks are not
particularly respected in our culture. And the rate of pay for doing
them isn't high.

In a craftsman's workshop, it would probably be the youngest and least
experienced or talented apprentice that swept the floor. It's not
surprising to me that many people want to get out of doing this kind of
task once they've done it enough times to master it.

Betsy

** Once i really gave myself permission to
NOT HAVE to clean cleaning became a helluva lot easier.

It also helps to put on some really good music. **

I think these are both great ideas.

pam sorooshian

On Sep 6, 2004, at 7:51 AM, Lisa H wrote:

> If i begin to feel the slightest resentment in washing a dish or
> picking up
> toys or putting away crafts, books, clothes, garbage, etc. I stop.
> If I
> don't want to do it now i won't. Once i really gave myself permission
> to
> NOT HAVE to clean cleaning became a helluva lot easier.

I spend a lot of time feeling either resentful or guilty about this
stuff. I've been surfing the internet, reading various sites about this
issue, and the LAST thing I want/need is a self-imposed "system." That
just adds to the guilt since I can never follow anybody else's system.
I think it is ALL about not ever doing it with resentment and not
feeling guilty when I choose to do something else.

And, then, there is being willing to do just a bit. THAT is my big
problem way of seeing things - I see it all as one HUGE big mess to
clean up and I'm not satisfied if I get a bit done. So - I'm going to
just ignore that feeling and do little bits here and there. And I'm
ONLY going to do it when I feel like it. And I'm going to just wipe out
the guilty feelings of not getting stuff done and look at what I AM
doing instead.

I should be able to do this - I am a true natural unschooler. I have no
problem of lack of confidence in unschooling, I totally see how the
kids doing what they are interested in works, I see that doing
something resentfully is a TERRIBLE disincentive for children, and I
know for sure how feeling like they "should" do something, and then
shirking on doing it, builds up a vicious circle of guilt and
resentment.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Danielle Conger

I spend a lot of time feeling either resentful or guilty about this
stuff. I've been surfing the internet, reading various sites about this
issue, and the LAST thing I want/need is a self-imposed "system."
========

I don't have a system. I've just always found that I live inside my head so much that I welcome mindless physical activity. Sounds weird, I know, but it gives me time to think, sort things out, and I really like the tangible accomplishment it provides in a way that written pages don't. I've always "liked" manual labor in that kind of way--cleaning, gardening, refinishing antiques, stuff like that. I'm a freak. *lol*

<>--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

Have a Nice Day!

HA! Well if you're a freak, then I'm a freak too!

I love to just think while I do other stuff. Another favorite is to talk on the phone while I clean :o).

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Danielle Conger
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Re: money & kids/cleaning


I spend a lot of time feeling either resentful or guilty about this
stuff. I've been surfing the internet, reading various sites about this
issue, and the LAST thing I want/need is a self-imposed "system."
========

I don't have a system. I've just always found that I live inside my head so much that I welcome mindless physical activity. Sounds weird, I know, but it gives me time to think, sort things out, and I really like the tangible accomplishment it provides in a way that written pages don't. I've always "liked" manual labor in that kind of way--cleaning, gardening, refinishing antiques, stuff like that. I'm a freak. *lol*

<>--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<<<< HA! Well if you're a freak, then I'm a freak too! >>>>>

Ok, I'll join Danielle and Kristen in the freak department.
(probably in more ways than one <g> )

I listen to books-on-tape while cleaning. Takes my mind of any
martyrish thoughts. . . . . .and before I know it, I've got clean
floors and bathrooms and. . . . . .

Mercedes

Elizabeth Hill

** And, then, there is being willing to do just a bit. THAT is my big
problem way of seeing things - I see it all as one HUGE big mess to
clean up and I'm not satisfied if I get a bit done.**

I thought maybe that might be part of it. Earlier you were writing
about 3 scenarios of being busy -- being late for a scheduled event,
running out the door for park day, and having your husband waiting for
you to join him to watch a movie on TV. When I read the post, I was
thinking that in case (b) and case (c) it was theoretically possible to
spend 5 or 8 minutes cleaning before starting the next activity.
Because I still believe (down deep in my heart, somewhere) that
incremental activity can make a difference. But if incremental activity
is unsatisfying for you, then that's not the way to go. (I do a lot of
things incrementally because I have a very short attention span and I
find it a huge struggle to try and stick with something until it is
completly done. And I mean often I start unloading the dishwasher and
don't finish.)

**And I'm ONLY going to do it when I feel like it**

I think this is good. And like any unhappy thing that we might tend to
dwell on, you could maybe use the technique of scheduling your negative
thoughts. When you catch yourself thinking unhappy thoughts about the
housework, you might try telling yourself (firmly) that noon on Monday
is your scheduled time for thinking about how to clean or how to
declutter and that thoughts on the subject can darn well come back at
that time for you to address them constructively. (I'm stealing a
technique that I used for awhile for scheduling worrying about money.
There are some problems that we can't completely ignore or minimize, but
that doesn't mean we should consent to let them drape themselves around
our necks and oppress us all the time.) (If you need to physically get
away from the clutter, you might try just spiffing up a bathroom or
patio and hide out there when you need respite from the irritations of
clutter. Or start a list of enjoyable passtimes that you can do with
your eyes closed <eg>.)

Did anyone talk much yet about hiring help? Is that financially or
emotionally unappealing?

**I totally see how the
kids doing what they are interested in works, I see that doing
something resentfully is a TERRIBLE disincentive for children, and I
know for sure how feeling like they "should" do something, and then
shirking on doing it, builds up a vicious circle of guilt and
resentment.**

Yes. Even possibly when pay is involved.

I keep thinking there is some way to make some kind of economic game out
of divvying up housework. Because clearly people vary in which tasks
they dislike most. There's got to be some optimum way to get tasks done
while minimizing human inconvenience. I also think that the idea of
paper snippets on the floor and pollution tax credits are somehow
linked. Can you see that connection and explain it to me? <g> I'm
vaguely remembering stuff in an Econ textbook about "externalities".

Betsy

Lisa H

<<Pam wrote: I've been surfing the internet, reading various sites about
this
issue, and the LAST thing I want/need is a self-imposed "system." That
just adds to the guilt since I can never follow anybody else's system. >>

Oh Pam, I know the feeling. I've read so many tricks and tips over the
years and bits and pieces have been helpful but only for a short time.
Ultimately i've come up with my own tricks and tips that work for me. The
best having learned to choose to not have to clean. Eliminating all the
obligation has allowed me to be comfortable with whatever i get done...some
days more than other. Humor helps a lot as well.

<<I think it is ALL about not ever doing it with resentment and not
feeling guilty when I choose to do something else.

And, then, there is being willing to do just a bit. THAT is my big
problem way of seeing things - I see it all as one HUGE big mess to
clean up and I'm not satisfied if I get a bit done. So - I'm going to
just ignore that feeling and do little bits here and there. And I'm
ONLY going to do it when I feel like it. And I'm going to just wipe out
the guilty feelings of not getting stuff done and look at what I AM
doing instead.>>

Sometimes i decide to focus my attention on only one corner of a room or one
shelf or one drawer or one cabinet. That way I can have a sense of
accomplishment even if the rest of the room is in total chaos or the kidlets
are right behind me fully utilizing another corner.

Sometimes i decide to take the kids and leave the house for the day because
being home is just one big glaring headlight of what i am not attending to.
And i really want to focus my attention on anything but what 'needs' to be
done.

<<I should be able to do this - I am a true natural unschooler. I have no
problem of lack of confidence in unschooling, I totally see how the
kids doing what they are interested in works, I see that doing
something resentfully is a TERRIBLE disincentive for children, and I
know for sure how feeling like they "should" do something, and then
shirking on doing it, builds up a vicious circle of guilt and
resentment.>>

I am always amazed with myself how easily I can accept, respect and give my
children what i cannot easily accept, respect and give to myself or other
adults (specifically dh). Sometimes it takes a conscious effort to
recognize the hypocrisy of my actions and then adjust accordingly.

Always learning,
Lisa Heyman.

Lisa H

<<Angela wrote: Here's another idea for people who have a difficult time parting with stuff for sentimental reasons. Take a picture of each thing and make a scrap book. You'll still have the memories, but they'll take up much less space. Make sure you get rid of the item after though. ;0)>>

In theory it may sound like a good idea, however, if one is already messy, disorganized and cluttered, the reality of having the energy, time and inclination to take pictures and catalogue them is totally out of my realm of being. I still haven't mounted my wedding pictures (16 years later) <g>.

My solution is to have a box (or many) and to have a closet, room, attic, or basement with a corner for all those sentimental things that accumulate that i really don't want to display and am not ready to be rid of.

Lisa Heyman

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

<<<<Here's another idea for people who have a difficult time parting with
stuff
> for sentimental reasons. >>>>

Perhaps you can help me. I could use some ideas.

I am not sentimental at all. I gave my wedding dress to Adriane to play
dress-up in. I would live like a nun if I had the choice. I don't like
"stuff".

My family loves their "stuff". Adriane has every note, card, letter that
she has EVER received. Dh has a collection of keys that he has no clue what
they go to.

All family members but me are like this. Problem is that most of the
cleaning falls to me and I don't DARE throw anything out because it never
fails that what appeared to be a gum wrapper to me was in reality some
irreplaceable treasure.

I find myself just kind of making piles of stuff, eventually moving the
piles to their rooms. Don't know what to do about the mountain of paper
that is my counter.

All ideas are appreciated.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Game-Enthusiast" <game-enthusiast@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:41 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] sentimental stuff


> Here's another idea for people who have a difficult time parting with
stuff
> for sentimental reasons. Take a picture of each thing and make a scrap
> book. You'll still have the memories, but they'll take up much less
space.
> Make sure you get rid of the item after though. ;0)
>
> Angela
> game-enthusiast@...
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In our home, getting rid of regular assigned "chores" has made a huge
difference. Instead, I do as much as I can on my own, but will say, "Hey, Michael,
could you please check on the bathroom and see if it needs straightening up?"
Or "Travis, the food bucket (compost) needs emptying really badly" etc...

Praise and big thank-you's go a LONG, LONG way in our home too. I'm amazed
that since getting rid of chores, the number of times has quadrupled (or more)
that the kids just jump right in and help if they see me doing something.
Jumping in and helping them with things, especially help with finding something
they're looking for, has taught them much more than heaping guilty feelings on
them.

"How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen so Kids will Talk" has turned
our home inside out in a wonderful way too...lots more empathy with each other.

My kids are all usually up late, so they sleep in, and getting up about 1/2
hour to an hour before them and doing some speed cleaning (and flybaby stuff)
has helped a lot. And probably once a month I talk my husband into taking
everyone (youngest 6) someplace and I do an all over house organizing thing while
listening to a really good book on tape. Makes me feel great, I don't go
crazy trying to find stuff everyday (like scissors, or hairbrushes, or tape, etc)
and gives me time to do stuff I like, like try new recipes, etc.

Sometimes if the kitchen's a wreck, I'll say, "Hey guys, lets get this all
cleaned up really fast and then I can make a treat for tonight." Not bribery, I
make them something really cool because I APPRECIATE their help throughout
the day and cooking something really special is a way I can do it.

Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/7/2004 1:03:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
>>I am not sentimental at all. I gave my wedding dress to Adriane to play
dress-up in. I would live like a nun if I had the choice. I don't like
"stuff".

My family loves their "stuff". Adriane has every note, card, letter that
she has EVER received. Dh has a collection of keys that he has no clue what
they go to.<<
***********************************************************
Ugh...I'm like you. I'd probably live like St. Francis if I were single.

The thing that has helped with my 2 oldest daughters (18 and 20), who are
pack rats, is to just let them keep whatever they want, but they need to keep it
in their rooms. If they can stand to live with so much stuff, more power to
them. But what usually happens eventually is they realize they don't need so
much stuff, and about once a year declutter their rooms, or give half their
stuff to younger siblings! LOL...

I've thrown out stuff that belongs to my husband and lived to seriously
regret it later. I once donated a pair of pants to goodwill, that went to a suit
(jacket)...I thought, "he'll never be able to fit into it again", didn't
realize it was part of a suit...

Ugh...turns out my son CAN fit into it...it was so old it came back in style
(double breasted silky type suit...son looks like a mobster in it but still,
very classy! Hand tailored :o) He had 2 suits that were the same, so my son
looked wonderful in the one...then my husband began looking for the pants to the
second suit...yikes...I felt like dirt. Lets just say I learned my lesson to
only declutter my own stuff.

Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Game-Enthusiast

All family members but me are like this. Problem is that most of the
cleaning falls to me and I don't DARE throw anything out because it never
fails that what appeared to be a gum wrapper to me was in reality some
irreplaceable treasure.
----------------------------------

You described my family here too. I am the only one who enjoys getting rid
of stuff and living with minimal stuff. (And I've rarely ever wanted
anything back that I threw out.) What I have done is to have two smaller
containers upstairs for paper stuff that is saved. (one for each kid) and
when it is full, I move it to plastic bags, date it, and put it in those big
Rubbermaid buckets and date them and when they are full, put them in the
basement closet. We are going to build shelves, some day, to stack those
buckets on so we can fit them floor to ceiling in the basement closet, which
is quite large.

If something is debatable when it comes to throwing it out. Like a gum
wrapper that is really a horse leg wrap, or something. I put it in the
pantry on a shelf and if someone asks for it, I find it. If no one asks for
it in a couple of days, then I throw it out. My kids even save cereal
boxes. I let them play with them until they are bored with them, they move
to the shelf and if no one asks for it in a few days, I throw it out.

I feel like I am meeting my needs to not live in a house filled with trash
and I am meeting their needs to allow them to play with stuff till they've
had their fill. It is a compromise because they wouldn't actually choose to
throw away the cereal boxes ever and I would choose to throw them out
immediately. When they ask if they can have a cereal box when it's empty, I
make sure I say, you can have it to play with for a while. It's so hard
having kids who don't want to part with anything. My dh is just like that
and it's a challenge to keep the house livable because their just isn't a
place for everything.


Angela
game-enthusiast@...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>
> I spend a lot of time feeling either resentful or guilty about this
> stuff. I've been surfing the internet, reading various sites about
this
> issue, and the LAST thing I want/need is a self-imposed "system."

Pam,

I agree. The reason I've actually gotten something out of reading
Flylady, though, is that I'm doing the same things as before, just
making them easier. It used to be overwhelming to get myself and the
kids ready in the morning and actually get us out the door. I took a
leap of faith and made a checklist (yuck) and followed it every day
for a month or so. For me, in that situation, it was so much easier
to be focused on checking items off than feeling overwhelmed, being
mad (at whom?) for having to do it by myself, etc. Now it's...not a
routine, but a rhythm that works for me. Making myself do it for a
while got me to learn to do it well, instead of feeling bad and
giving up.


> And, then, there is being willing to do just a bit. THAT is my big
> problem way of seeing things - I see it all as one HUGE big mess to
> clean up and I'm not satisfied if I get a bit done. So - I'm going
to
> just ignore that feeling and do little bits here and there.

That's the other piece that works for me. If your goal is cleaning
for 10 minutes (or until you have to leave or until a child needs
you) and you're focusing on getting a lot done in that time, you
think less about how large the mess is.

What would you most like to change about your house right now?
Something big or little. And how would spending 5 or 10 or 15 minutes
a day help?

--aj

Have a Nice Day!

In our home, getting rid of regular assigned "chores" has made a huge
difference. Instead, I do as much as I can on my own, but will say, "Hey, Michael,
could you please check on the bathroom and see if it needs straightening up?"
Or "Travis, the food bucket (compost) needs emptying really badly" etc...

My kids are all usually up late, so they sleep in, and getting up about 1/2
hour to an hour before them and doing some speed cleaning (and flybaby stuff)
has helped a lot.

************************

This is how I do it too. It works most of the time. Sometimes my feelings of being overwhelmed though doesn't rule out the "assigning" of chores. Working on it.

KRisten

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/6/04 11:31:48 PM, CelticFrau@... writes:

<< The thing that has helped with my 2 oldest daughters (18 and 20), who are
pack rats, is to just let them keep whatever they want, but they need to keep
it
in their rooms. If they can stand to live with so much stuff, more power to
them. >>

Is it really fair to basically tell kids the only part of the house that is
theirs is their own room? If they packed a box up really well wouldn't you be
able to find a place to store it (shed, basement, store room, under your bed,
in the bottom of a shared closet) for when they're grown? When they're grown,
they won't be living in just one room, and it would be too bad for them to
have had to get rid of things for arbitrary reasons.

Stories of people having been made to throw things away that were later worth
hundreds of dollars (or more) abound.

Sandra

Laura Johnson

My mom threw away just about everything (she actually accidentally threw away her wedding rings, they were in a napkin drying from being cleaned, she never got them back). A friend of my mine had a whole box of toys to give to her son when he was born that she had played with. Some were from her mom and dad when they were kids. It made me sad that I don't have hardly anything left from my childhood because my mom would throw or give everything away, not one blanket, toy, art project, card I made, nothing I would of like to have. I got one box when they sold their house. It had some meaningless twirling trophies and a couple of ribbons and crowns from pageants that I did when I was little. Nothing that meant a thing to me, but clearly these were important to my mom, so she kept them. She did save a box of books for us and I have enjoyed reading those to my son. He can keep whatever he wants. Periodically, we go through his stuff looking for items he doesn't want anymore. He has a roomful of toys, but still plays with some of his baby things. I have also saved some of his clothes and toys for him (and me). I think my mom is understanding now a little bit. When my grandmother died recently, she called me and asked what would I like to have as a keepsake. She picked out quite a few things and brought them to me. Things that really remind me of my grandmother. My mom just really hates clutter and her stepmom kept everything. So, I think it must skip a generation or something. Probably from a need created by the prior generation. I'm very sentimental about certain things.
Laura J

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "Laura Johnson" <lauraj2@v...> wrote:
> My mom threw away just about everything. [snip] It made me sad that I don't have
hardly anything left from my childhood because my mom would throw or give everything
away, not one blanket, toy, art project, card I made, nothing I would of like to have.

This is just like my mom. My mother would methodically declutter every year and give
away or throw away everything that had a cracked lid or was a bit worn. That meant
perfectly good games were given away, toys that were no longer new and so on.

When my aprents divorced, all the family films and many of the family photo albums
disappeared too.

I'm much more sentimental about stuff as a result and hang on to things just for what they
signify to me (I kept a plastic bag that came from Morocco for five years until it wore out
just because I had bought it when living there).

What I am trying to do now is to at least keep the sentimental stuff organized and to really
get rid of the stuff that is just making me crazy (or making me trip <g>).

Emilie Barnes used to say, "You can be a pack rat. Just be an organized pack rat." That
helped me to not feel guilty for keeping what other people might jettison.

(I did manage to keep every diary or journal I've ever owned in spite of four international
moves. I'm glad I didn't succumb to the advice, "You'll never look at thoswe again." Not
true.)

Julie B

Priscilla Martinez

<<Commercial interruption: Sandra's Peaceful Parenting talk ~ WOW!! After the conference, I found the tape to be a powerful reinforcement>>

sorry if this question has been answered before, but where, where, where, pray tell, can i buy the tape? it sounds awesome!

tia!

~peace, priscilla



"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day,
that my child may have peace."
Thomas Paine
(1737-1809, Anglo-American political theorist and writer)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

**but where, where, where, pray tell, can i buy the tape?**



This is where I got mine: http://www.hsc.org/conference/2003/tapes2002.shtml



And it is awesome! I think you can get them directly from Sandra too.



Kelli~


Priscilla Martinez <ummhjm@...> wrote:

<<Commercial interruption: Sandra's Peaceful Parenting talk ~ WOW!! After the conference, I found the tape to be a powerful reinforcement>>

sorry if this question has been answered before, but where, where, where, pray tell, can i buy the tape? it sounds awesome!

tia!

~peace, priscilla



"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day,
that my child may have peace."
Thomas Paine
(1737-1809, Anglo-American political theorist and writer)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 9/7/04 1:05 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Is it really fair to basically tell kids the only part of the house that is
> theirs is their own room?

I think this is another instance where words are conjuring different images.
I could be wrong since Nancy implied she'd live without much stuff if she
were single, but stuff that pack rats accumulate doesn't bring up images of
video games and magazines and letters from friends and Pokemon figure
collections for me. It brings up images of broken pens, children's menus,
rocks, mail solicitations, candy wrappers, bottle caps, rusty bolts, pencil
nubs, ...

So as far as pack rat treasures are concerned, it's a *big* help to me if
Kat keeps all that stuff in her room. (Rooms actually ;-) And I keep my pack
rat stuff that might look like trash in my computer room. And Carl keeps his
pack rat stuff on his desk and the alcove. It's a way of protecting it and
not putting the burden of deciding what to do with it on someone else.

When the whole house is a dumping ground for pack rat stuff, there's no
pressure to ask yourself 'Do I really want to keep this?" Infinite space
tends to accumulate infinite stuff. At least for pack rats! ;-)

Joyce

[email protected]

> Here's another idea for people who have a difficult time parting with
stuff
> for sentimental reasons. Take a picture of each thing and make a scrap
> book. You'll still have the memories, but they'll take up much less
space.
> Make sure you get rid of the item after though. ;0)
>
> Angela
> game-enthusiast@...
**************************************************************
Reminds me of the photos I took to sell some baby clothes on Ebay. They
looked so cute and I was so sad to see them go then came Nicholas....and Cameron<G>

This past week after the convention I was on my Holt kick again. I bought
"What Do I Do Monday" and a 1964 "How Children Fail" for 7.00 on Ebay. I dont
need them but I wanted to have them to read and thought how cool to have some of
his older books/versions.

I also was moving books and stumbled upon a 1938 "The Little American Girl"
book that I may not need but thought again gee this is a very old book I think
I'll hold this for a while. Maybe its the old version of the American Girl
books and some family may think its pretty neat someday. Then there is the
Gymdandy that I found last week (3 seat seesaw from the 70's) that I plan to
refinish for the kids.

We also have many, many toys in every room. Having four kids I dont want them
to feel they didn't have things of their own. For example we have 3 pedal
cars, 2 cozy coups, 3 scooters, 3 wagons, 2 swing sets (outside thank goodness)
and boxes and boxes of trucks,dolls,blocks and more blocks and bigger blocks.
Barbies, houses, people, a large box of fast food toys and a lot of VCR
tapes..... My home is much too full and i would be happier with less stuff (I think)
but they wouldn't be. (most of the above items were given to us)

Its nearly impossible to keep this place uncluttered and Ive pretty much
given up on worrying what my mother would say (she moved to SC anyway). As a child
my Mom was a neat freak and still is. She has wasted years cleaning to the
point of madness and misery. I think I went the other way just because it made
me so sad that cleaning was more important than playing with me.

What are my (4) kids going to say as adults? Mom I hate you because you
played with me and didn't spend hours picking up the same stuff over and over
again.. I dont think so. They know I pick up I just dont say im sorry I cant
play/go/do because you/I made this mess and I need to pick it up. Ive been known to
leave the house and a trail behind me it will be there when we get back. Shut
the door and enter sunshine :)
So that said, if any who live near me come to visit my home is not free from
blocks, cars and toys in every room. Oh and boxes of books (while I wait for
my husband to build a few book cases oh and maybe an addition<G>) I think after
writing this ive come to realize that my husband and I are living our missed
childhood's though our kids..

Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<When the whole house is a dumping ground for pack rat stuff, there's no
pressure to ask yourself 'Do I really want to keep this?" Infinite space
tends to accumulate infinite stuff. At least for pack rats! ;-)>>>

This is the well known corollary to Murphy's Law:

The stuff expands to fill the space available.

Also a useful addition that always seems to apply on a movie set:

The work expands to fill the time available.

Robyn L. Coburn

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