Re: money & kids
Ali Kat
My 8 year old daughter gets $12 every 2 weeks. The dollar amount is what I can afford out of our budget. It has meant some refiguring and sacrificing so that I can giver her her own money, but I think it has been a neat thing to watch her decide how/when to spend.
Right now, her allowance is not tied to anything. I keep hearing that I "should" from family, etc... I don't have a reason why it's not tied to her helping around the house or anything... It's just the way I started. I wouldn't even know how to explain not tying it to "chores" or whatever.
It sounds to me, though, that on this list the idea that it should be tied to helping around the house is an awful thing to do. I was wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be done in order to "earn" money? If I don't work at my job and do the tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period. I don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone handing it to me just because. I get money by getting up, going to work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next day.
That being said, I don't think tying her allowance to certain responsibilities around the house will make her a better person or teach her some kind of "lesson". But, I was just wondering why it would be so awful. I guess I don't understand.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Right now, her allowance is not tied to anything. I keep hearing that I "should" from family, etc... I don't have a reason why it's not tied to her helping around the house or anything... It's just the way I started. I wouldn't even know how to explain not tying it to "chores" or whatever.
It sounds to me, though, that on this list the idea that it should be tied to helping around the house is an awful thing to do. I was wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be done in order to "earn" money? If I don't work at my job and do the tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period. I don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone handing it to me just because. I get money by getting up, going to work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next day.
That being said, I don't think tying her allowance to certain responsibilities around the house will make her a better person or teach her some kind of "lesson". But, I was just wondering why it would be so awful. I guess I don't understand.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
yukonaurora65
--- In [email protected], Ali Kat
<sweetgypsiedncer@y...> wrote:
refiguring and sacrificing so that I can giver her her own money,
but I think it has been a neat thing to watch her decide how/when to
spend.
not tied to her helping around the house or anything... It's just
the way I started. I wouldn't even know how to explain not tying it
to "chores" or whatever.
wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be
done in order to "earn" money? If I don't work at my job and do the
tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period. I
don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone
handing it to me just because. I get money by getting up, going to
work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next
day.
teach her some kind of "lesson". But, I was just wondering why it
would be so awful. I guess I don't understand.
<sweetgypsiedncer@y...> wrote:
>is what I can afford out of our budget. It has meant some
> My 8 year old daughter gets $12 every 2 weeks. The dollar amount
refiguring and sacrificing so that I can giver her her own money,
but I think it has been a neat thing to watch her decide how/when to
spend.
>that I "should" from family, etc... I don't have a reason why it's
> Right now, her allowance is not tied to anything. I keep hearing
not tied to her helping around the house or anything... It's just
the way I started. I wouldn't even know how to explain not tying it
to "chores" or whatever.
>be tied to helping around the house is an awful thing to do. I was
> It sounds to me, though, that on this list the idea that it should
wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be
done in order to "earn" money? If I don't work at my job and do the
tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period. I
don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone
handing it to me just because. I get money by getting up, going to
work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next
day.
>responsibilities around the house will make her a better person or
> That being said, I don't think tying her allowance to certain
teach her some kind of "lesson". But, I was just wondering why it
would be so awful. I guess I don't understand.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
24hrmom
<< It sounds to me, though, that on this list the idea that it should
be tied to helping around the house is an awful thing to do. I was
wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be
done in order to "earn" money? If I don't work at my job and do the
tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period. I
don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone
handing it to me just because. I get money by getting up, going to
work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next
day. >>
Well, for us the money that comes in is family money and they are part of
the family so we share. I do lots of work around the house, though I am not
paid for any of it. If my husband, as the person earning the money, had a
list of things that I had to get done that week before I could have any
money to spend at my discretion, I'd be pretty resentful. I'd look at the
jobs as painful duties to get done. It takes away my choice to do those
tasks of my own volition and for my own motivations ... it would kill the
joy of participating in the household.
Tying allowance to chores makes the tasks seem icky and something to avoid,
not as things that help the household run more smoothly. Maybe the
bathrooms or the vacuuming can slide for another few days in favour of
something else. It helps them see that work around the home can be done
when a person sees it needs doing and they choose to do it. Not to do it
just because it's Saturday or just because if they don't then they don't get
their allowance. That's just not "reality". When they have their own apt /
home they don't *have to* do the household tasks on Saturday (or whatever
day). And nobody is going to pay them to get them done. I look at my
motivations for getting stuff done around the house and try to share that
with them.
And the money/allowance itself, with no strings attached, gives them the
opportunity to learn how to make good money decisions. And by good I don't
mean the decisions I would necessarily make, but decisions that are based on
their own observations and experiences and that work out well for them. And
at a time in their lives where we (the parents) are around to share our
experiences and talk to them about theirs. It gives them the opportunity to
get to know themselves ... are they a spender, a saver, something inbetween?
And the chance to try on all these different "hats". Just understanding
themselves around money will help them to make better decisions as they grow
older and get more of an independent income.
Pam L
http://www.livingjoyfully.ca
be tied to helping around the house is an awful thing to do. I was
wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be
done in order to "earn" money? If I don't work at my job and do the
tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period. I
don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone
handing it to me just because. I get money by getting up, going to
work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next
day. >>
Well, for us the money that comes in is family money and they are part of
the family so we share. I do lots of work around the house, though I am not
paid for any of it. If my husband, as the person earning the money, had a
list of things that I had to get done that week before I could have any
money to spend at my discretion, I'd be pretty resentful. I'd look at the
jobs as painful duties to get done. It takes away my choice to do those
tasks of my own volition and for my own motivations ... it would kill the
joy of participating in the household.
Tying allowance to chores makes the tasks seem icky and something to avoid,
not as things that help the household run more smoothly. Maybe the
bathrooms or the vacuuming can slide for another few days in favour of
something else. It helps them see that work around the home can be done
when a person sees it needs doing and they choose to do it. Not to do it
just because it's Saturday or just because if they don't then they don't get
their allowance. That's just not "reality". When they have their own apt /
home they don't *have to* do the household tasks on Saturday (or whatever
day). And nobody is going to pay them to get them done. I look at my
motivations for getting stuff done around the house and try to share that
with them.
And the money/allowance itself, with no strings attached, gives them the
opportunity to learn how to make good money decisions. And by good I don't
mean the decisions I would necessarily make, but decisions that are based on
their own observations and experiences and that work out well for them. And
at a time in their lives where we (the parents) are around to share our
experiences and talk to them about theirs. It gives them the opportunity to
get to know themselves ... are they a spender, a saver, something inbetween?
And the chance to try on all these different "hats". Just understanding
themselves around money will help them to make better decisions as they grow
older and get more of an independent income.
Pam L
http://www.livingjoyfully.ca
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/3/04 1:28:31 PM, nadineb@... writes:
<< It sounds to me, though, that on this list the idea that it should
be tied to helping around the house is an awful thing to do. I was
wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be
done in order to "earn" money? >>
It's the same principle as not learning to read to "earn" an A.
It's the same principle as not having to eat spinach to "earn" pie.
-=-If I don't work at my job and do the
tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period.-=-
You're not eight years old.
-=- I don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone
handing it to me just because. I get money by getting up, going to
work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next
day. -=-
There are people who say they are preparing their children to go to work by
making them get up and get dressed every morning. They might be preparing them
to want to leave home, but they're not "preparing them for work." They're
just keeping their childhoods from being peaceful and happy.
Sandra
<< It sounds to me, though, that on this list the idea that it should
be tied to helping around the house is an awful thing to do. I was
wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be
done in order to "earn" money? >>
It's the same principle as not learning to read to "earn" an A.
It's the same principle as not having to eat spinach to "earn" pie.
-=-If I don't work at my job and do the
tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period.-=-
You're not eight years old.
-=- I don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone
handing it to me just because. I get money by getting up, going to
work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next
day. -=-
There are people who say they are preparing their children to go to work by
making them get up and get dressed every morning. They might be preparing them
to want to leave home, but they're not "preparing them for work." They're
just keeping their childhoods from being peaceful and happy.
Sandra
Angel
Hi all~ I'm new to the list and haven't intro'd yet. I'll get to that
soon, but I wanted to comment here. Our 13 yo works for us. We were
looking into hiring a cleaning person when I became pregnant so that I
wouldn't have to think about such things. After a few interviews he
came to us and proposed that we give him the job. He had a whole list
of reasons why he would be better than a stranger. He now cleans 2
mornings a week and we pay him 100.00 a month (works out to about 8.50
an hr depending on how he feels that day). This is his money. We pay
for all his extracurricular stuff, clothing, fun stuff, etc.Though, he
is going to Italy in March and we've asked him to raise the money he
will need for food and spending. That is only about 1/3 of the cost of
the trip, so not totally unrealistic. We would pay for it all, only we
can't really even afford the trip to begin with, so any help he can give
will make our financial lives easier. We don't give our children an
allowance only because we are very bad at remembering such things. They
just get what they need/want (within reason) when it arises. If he ever
wants to stop being the cleaning person he is free to do so and I remind
him of this often, especially when he seems to be dragging his feet and
not really wanting to do the work.
Just my .02. I'll go back to feeling out the list now and send an intro
in a few days.
With care,
Angel
'Many would sooner die than think. In fact, they do.'
~Taerlhain Limeryn
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 5:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: money & kids
In a message dated 9/3/04 1:28:31 PM, nadineb@... writes:
<< It sounds to me, though, that on this list the idea that it should
be tied to helping around the house is an awful thing to do. I was
wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be
done in order to "earn" money? >>
It's the same principle as not learning to read to "earn" an A.
It's the same principle as not having to eat spinach to "earn" pie.
-=-If I don't work at my job and do the
tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period.-=-
You're not eight years old.
-=- I don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone
handing it to me just because. I get money by getting up, going to
work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next
day. -=-
There are people who say they are preparing their children to go to work
by
making them get up and get dressed every morning. They might be
preparing them
to want to leave home, but they're not "preparing them for work."
They're
just keeping their childhoods from being peaceful and happy.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soon, but I wanted to comment here. Our 13 yo works for us. We were
looking into hiring a cleaning person when I became pregnant so that I
wouldn't have to think about such things. After a few interviews he
came to us and proposed that we give him the job. He had a whole list
of reasons why he would be better than a stranger. He now cleans 2
mornings a week and we pay him 100.00 a month (works out to about 8.50
an hr depending on how he feels that day). This is his money. We pay
for all his extracurricular stuff, clothing, fun stuff, etc.Though, he
is going to Italy in March and we've asked him to raise the money he
will need for food and spending. That is only about 1/3 of the cost of
the trip, so not totally unrealistic. We would pay for it all, only we
can't really even afford the trip to begin with, so any help he can give
will make our financial lives easier. We don't give our children an
allowance only because we are very bad at remembering such things. They
just get what they need/want (within reason) when it arises. If he ever
wants to stop being the cleaning person he is free to do so and I remind
him of this often, especially when he seems to be dragging his feet and
not really wanting to do the work.
Just my .02. I'll go back to feeling out the list now and send an intro
in a few days.
With care,
Angel
'Many would sooner die than think. In fact, they do.'
~Taerlhain Limeryn
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 5:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: money & kids
In a message dated 9/3/04 1:28:31 PM, nadineb@... writes:
<< It sounds to me, though, that on this list the idea that it should
be tied to helping around the house is an awful thing to do. I was
wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be
done in order to "earn" money? >>
It's the same principle as not learning to read to "earn" an A.
It's the same principle as not having to eat spinach to "earn" pie.
-=-If I don't work at my job and do the
tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period.-=-
You're not eight years old.
-=- I don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone
handing it to me just because. I get money by getting up, going to
work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next
day. -=-
There are people who say they are preparing their children to go to work
by
making them get up and get dressed every morning. They might be
preparing them
to want to leave home, but they're not "preparing them for work."
They're
just keeping their childhoods from being peaceful and happy.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129nknrgr/M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/
D=groups/S=1705081972:HM/EXP=1094332652/A=2319498/R=0/SIG=11thfntfp/*htt
p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185352&partid=5285298> click here
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
>It sounds to me, though, that on this list the idea that it should be tied to helping around the house is an awful >thing to do. I was wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks be done in order to "earn" >money? If I don't work at my job and do the tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get paid. Period. I >don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or someone handing it to me just because. I get money by getting >up, going to work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next day.Why should what kids get for money be compared to a job? You didn't hire them, you can't fire them. They're family, not employees. Would it be fair for a husband to not give his SAH wife spending money because she didn't wash the floor?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Nevermind that it's not true that performance and wages are so intimately linked. I've had jobs where I slacked off for a day but I still got a days wages.
Your kids don't get money just because. They get it because they're part of the family and that's one of the perks of being part of the family.
I think I don't like it because it confuses work and family. It also makes a bit of a fetish of money I think, all this doing chores to get the bucks instead of it simply being another tool in a persons toolbox.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Muzyczka
> I was wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasksBecause being a part of your family isn't a job they chose. It's a role in
> be done in order to "earn" >money? If I don't work at my job and do the
> tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get
> paid. Period. I >don't have money just falling out of the sky at me, or
> someone handing it to me just because. I get money by getting >up, going
> to work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next day.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
life YOU chose for them. As such it's YOUR job to provide for them.
I really liked hearing about the kid who does housecleaning for a decent
wage. I'd LOVE to pay my kids to clean. But one isn't interested and the
others are too young. If it is a job that they make a deal to do for
money, then great. But to require it as a requirement for being a part of
the family, no.
Kelly
I love mankind, it's people I can't stand. --Linus
nellebelle
>>>>Our 13 yo works for us. We werePaying your own child for a job you would have hired out is not anything
> looking into hiring a cleaning person when I became pregnant so that I
> wouldn't have to think about such things.>>>>>
like requiring them to take out the trash in order to get spending money.
Mary Ellen
J. Stauffer
<<<<< But to require it as a requirement for being a part of
what a lot of people post on this list.
We really, truly tried the "do it only if you want to, no pressure" way for
over 2 years. It worked quite well initially but then the kids started
slacking off. There were many other things much more interesting than
picking up the toys or putting laundry away. I found myself doing it more
and more and more.
We have 5 kids, 3 of whom are old enough for activities. Their activities
are very time consuming, with daily practices, competitions requiring us to
be out of town almost every weekend of the year, daily care of many, many
animals, etc.. In other words, the things they are wanting to do requires
many hours of my time each day.
Our house is far from clean at any time. But when I was trying to not have
the kids do anything they didn't want to do, I was having to get up before
dawn and was still working at 9 or 10 at night. I was exhausted, running
myself into the ground. I had things I also wanted to do, like read
occassionally, study plants, etc. but there was no time. I would find
myself occassionally just losing it in crying fits on the kids, just from
being overwhelmed. Along with all of this, my dh travels a lot with his job
so it was just me to try to meet everyone's needs.
So I decided to take care of myself. The kids' activities aren't exactly
tied to housework. But I pointed out the number of hours I spend helping
them meet their goals each day and I pointed out how asking them to spend
about 15 minutes a day simply picking up after themselves didn't seem out of
line.
They aren't required to do set things but in response to the many things I
do for them, I ask them to to spend a few minutes helping me out. It
doesn't mean that I never pick up their dirty clothes, it doesn't mean that
I threaten them with lack of activities.....It means that in our house,
relationships are based on give and take.
Julie S.
> the family, no.>>>>>>Well, our kids are expected to help out. I know that flies in the face of
what a lot of people post on this list.
We really, truly tried the "do it only if you want to, no pressure" way for
over 2 years. It worked quite well initially but then the kids started
slacking off. There were many other things much more interesting than
picking up the toys or putting laundry away. I found myself doing it more
and more and more.
We have 5 kids, 3 of whom are old enough for activities. Their activities
are very time consuming, with daily practices, competitions requiring us to
be out of town almost every weekend of the year, daily care of many, many
animals, etc.. In other words, the things they are wanting to do requires
many hours of my time each day.
Our house is far from clean at any time. But when I was trying to not have
the kids do anything they didn't want to do, I was having to get up before
dawn and was still working at 9 or 10 at night. I was exhausted, running
myself into the ground. I had things I also wanted to do, like read
occassionally, study plants, etc. but there was no time. I would find
myself occassionally just losing it in crying fits on the kids, just from
being overwhelmed. Along with all of this, my dh travels a lot with his job
so it was just me to try to meet everyone's needs.
So I decided to take care of myself. The kids' activities aren't exactly
tied to housework. But I pointed out the number of hours I spend helping
them meet their goals each day and I pointed out how asking them to spend
about 15 minutes a day simply picking up after themselves didn't seem out of
line.
They aren't required to do set things but in response to the many things I
do for them, I ask them to to spend a few minutes helping me out. It
doesn't mean that I never pick up their dirty clothes, it doesn't mean that
I threaten them with lack of activities.....It means that in our house,
relationships are based on give and take.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly Muzyczka" <mina@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: money & kids
>
> > I was wondering what is so wrong with requiring a certain task or tasks
> > be done in order to "earn" >money? If I don't work at my job and do the
> > tasks they request/require of me, then I don't get
> > paid. Period. I >don't have money just falling out of the sky at me,
or
> > someone handing it to me just because. I get money by getting >up,
going
> > to work, doing my job, and then coming home and preparing for the next
day.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>
>
> Because being a part of your family isn't a job they chose. It's a role
in
> life YOU chose for them. As such it's YOUR job to provide for them.
>
> I really liked hearing about the kid who does housecleaning for a decent
> wage. I'd LOVE to pay my kids to clean. But one isn't interested and the
> others are too young. If it is a job that they make a deal to do for
> money, then great. But to require it as a requirement for being a part of
> the family, no.
>
>
> Kelly
> I love mankind, it's people I can't stand. --Linus
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Shannon Rizzo
How have you handled unschooling and guardianship when doing your wills?
Other than trying to find the best match for your kids, do you relinquish
control over how they would be educated, or do you hold discussions with the
guardian about unschooling and your philosophies? It's sometimes hard
enough just to find a prospective guardian among family and friends, someone
who shares your general approaches about parenting (perhaps not spanking,
for example).
It would seem natural and important to talk with the guardian about your
parenting style and agree that the guardian will try to provide a
continuity, especially in the beginning when the child is adjusting to the
loss of the parent. For example, the guardian might bring a youngster into
his/her bed if that's what the child is used to and if the child has that
need.
But how nitty-gritty do you get when it comes to more specific things, such
as unschooling (though to me unschooling is not simply a way of education
but an attitude toward life, to someone else not yet involved in it, it may
seem to be just a specific way of schooling)?
On one hand, I feel strongly about unschooling as well as my other parenting
paths. On the other hand I recognize that if something happens and my dh
and I are killed, the most important thing is that the kids are with loving
family and friends who will help them through the trauma, even if the most
loving and supporting family members aren't the ones who are invested in
educational philosophies.
And this may be just one more self-imposed roadblock to completing my will
and guardian information.
Thanks,
Shannon R
(of Heather, Isabella, Luke, Jake)
Other than trying to find the best match for your kids, do you relinquish
control over how they would be educated, or do you hold discussions with the
guardian about unschooling and your philosophies? It's sometimes hard
enough just to find a prospective guardian among family and friends, someone
who shares your general approaches about parenting (perhaps not spanking,
for example).
It would seem natural and important to talk with the guardian about your
parenting style and agree that the guardian will try to provide a
continuity, especially in the beginning when the child is adjusting to the
loss of the parent. For example, the guardian might bring a youngster into
his/her bed if that's what the child is used to and if the child has that
need.
But how nitty-gritty do you get when it comes to more specific things, such
as unschooling (though to me unschooling is not simply a way of education
but an attitude toward life, to someone else not yet involved in it, it may
seem to be just a specific way of schooling)?
On one hand, I feel strongly about unschooling as well as my other parenting
paths. On the other hand I recognize that if something happens and my dh
and I are killed, the most important thing is that the kids are with loving
family and friends who will help them through the trauma, even if the most
loving and supporting family members aren't the ones who are invested in
educational philosophies.
And this may be just one more self-imposed roadblock to completing my will
and guardian information.
Thanks,
Shannon R
(of Heather, Isabella, Luke, Jake)
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/4/04 11:02:15 AM, shannon@... writes:
<< But how nitty-gritty do you get when it comes to more specific things, such
as unschooling (though to me unschooling is not simply a way of education
but an attitude toward life, to someone else not yet involved in it, it may
seem to be just a specific way of schooling)? >>
I think if you can find someone who's already unschooling or who'd be willing
and able to, that's a possibility. But wills only assign things, generally,
and can't put restrictions on how people can live their lives. It could put
restrictions on how money could be spent, and so maybe if there's money it
could be flagged for paying someone to stay with the kids in their own house and
continuing to unschool. That could use fat mortgage insurance, too, so the
house might be paid off by the parents' deaths.
Maybe you could ask that if the kids were old enough to be home alone that
they not be required to attend school.
Sandra
<< But how nitty-gritty do you get when it comes to more specific things, such
as unschooling (though to me unschooling is not simply a way of education
but an attitude toward life, to someone else not yet involved in it, it may
seem to be just a specific way of schooling)? >>
I think if you can find someone who's already unschooling or who'd be willing
and able to, that's a possibility. But wills only assign things, generally,
and can't put restrictions on how people can live their lives. It could put
restrictions on how money could be spent, and so maybe if there's money it
could be flagged for paying someone to stay with the kids in their own house and
continuing to unschool. That could use fat mortgage insurance, too, so the
house might be paid off by the parents' deaths.
Maybe you could ask that if the kids were old enough to be home alone that
they not be required to attend school.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
I have nothing to offer to people to help them with this issue - if you
saw my house you'd know why. But I understand and identify with what
Julie wrote. Maybe the house cleaning issue is much more difficult for
those of us who don't spend much time at home. I know that when we have
a few days where we're going to be home, all of us know that and like
to get things cleaned up a bit so that we'll have a more orderly,
spacious kind of living space. But most of the time we are just SO on
the go, we use our house as a waystation, really, and it is just run
in, take a shower, have something to eat, change clothes, grab a little
computer time, or collapse because we're worn out from all our
activities. The house gets the LOWEST priority from all of us and it
shows.
I have been not requiring any chores from the kids for YEARS. They
sometimes help unsolicited and sometimes I ask for help as in: "Can you
unload the dishwasher while I'm in the shower and then you can have a
shower while I fold some of this pile of laundry?" Or, as I'm running
out the door, I might ask a kid whose being left home to clear off the
pile of stuff on the dining table while I'm gone. And - they'll do it
when I ask. No complaining - totally cheerfully. But it isn't close to
remotely enough help to allow me to do all the driving and going to
activities that they want to do and still have my own life and grocery
shop and make meals and all that and STILL have a house that isn't just
a big huge awful mess most of the time.
Not even close. My kids and I have GREAT relationships - and they're
nice, helpful kids. But I am tired of the mess and they are really
messy. And I am the one tired of it and the one who is getting
resentful because I am the one who cares, but I can't keep up and can't
clean up enough behind them and still do the other things I want to do.
Frustrated, I am.
-pam
saw my house you'd know why. But I understand and identify with what
Julie wrote. Maybe the house cleaning issue is much more difficult for
those of us who don't spend much time at home. I know that when we have
a few days where we're going to be home, all of us know that and like
to get things cleaned up a bit so that we'll have a more orderly,
spacious kind of living space. But most of the time we are just SO on
the go, we use our house as a waystation, really, and it is just run
in, take a shower, have something to eat, change clothes, grab a little
computer time, or collapse because we're worn out from all our
activities. The house gets the LOWEST priority from all of us and it
shows.
I have been not requiring any chores from the kids for YEARS. They
sometimes help unsolicited and sometimes I ask for help as in: "Can you
unload the dishwasher while I'm in the shower and then you can have a
shower while I fold some of this pile of laundry?" Or, as I'm running
out the door, I might ask a kid whose being left home to clear off the
pile of stuff on the dining table while I'm gone. And - they'll do it
when I ask. No complaining - totally cheerfully. But it isn't close to
remotely enough help to allow me to do all the driving and going to
activities that they want to do and still have my own life and grocery
shop and make meals and all that and STILL have a house that isn't just
a big huge awful mess most of the time.
Not even close. My kids and I have GREAT relationships - and they're
nice, helpful kids. But I am tired of the mess and they are really
messy. And I am the one tired of it and the one who is getting
resentful because I am the one who cares, but I can't keep up and can't
clean up enough behind them and still do the other things I want to do.
Frustrated, I am.
-pam
On Sep 4, 2004, at 8:46 AM, J. Stauffer wrote:
> We have 5 kids, 3 of whom are old enough for activities. Their
> activities
> are very time consuming, with daily practices, competitions requiring
> us to
> be out of town almost every weekend of the year, daily care of many,
> many
> animals, etc.. In other words, the things they are wanting to do
> requires
> many hours of my time each day.
>
> Our house is far from clean at any time. But when I was trying to not
> have
> the kids do anything they didn't want to do, I was having to get up
> before
> dawn and was still working at 9 or 10 at night. I was exhausted,
> running
> myself into the ground. I had things I also wanted to do, like read
> occassionally, study plants, etc. but there was no time. I would find
> myself occassionally just losing it in crying fits on the kids, just
> from
> being overwhelmed. Along with all of this, my dh travels a lot with
> his job
> so it was just me to try to meet everyone's needs.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Elizabeth Hill
** Not even close. My kids and I have GREAT relationships - and they're
nice, helpful kids. But I am tired of the mess and they are really
messy. And I am the one tired of it and the one who is getting
resentful because I am the one who cares, but I can't keep up and can't
clean up enough behind them and still do the other things I want to do.
Frustrated, I am.**
I was a feminist before being an unschooler. As a feminist, I can't
support the line that only the person who cares about cleanliness should
have to clean.
More thoughts later, if I can articulate them.
Betsy
nice, helpful kids. But I am tired of the mess and they are really
messy. And I am the one tired of it and the one who is getting
resentful because I am the one who cares, but I can't keep up and can't
clean up enough behind them and still do the other things I want to do.
Frustrated, I am.**
I was a feminist before being an unschooler. As a feminist, I can't
support the line that only the person who cares about cleanliness should
have to clean.
More thoughts later, if I can articulate them.
Betsy
kayb85
Maybe the house cleaning issue is much more difficult for
for us too. Maybe it's more of a personality thing? I think some
women have more of a "nesting" instinct. I remember being at a
Christian women's conference and they were talking about how women
have a natural instinct to "nest" by having things "just so" in their
house, but men just drop thing wherever and don't care about their
atmosphere. That's a bit of a stereotype but it does seem to have a
lot of truth to it when I look at irl women I know. I know LOTS of
women who just can't rest or think in a house that's messy. But
somehow I seemed to miss out on some of that "nesting" instinct. I
would like it to not be messy, but I'm not willing or able to do the
amount of work required to keep things neat all the time. I would
love to challenge flylady to come to my home and keep up with my
boys' messes. ;) But her solution would probably be to constantly
tell them they can't make such big messes.
Once a week maybe, just to scrub down the kitchen and diningroom
really well. Other rooms would be too hard for a cleaning person to
do, because the problem is stuff--toys and papers and stuff that no
one outside of the family would know what to do with it all. For
example, I know that the yellow construction paper that's been run
through the shredder is Luke's "spaghetti", but a cleaning lady might
think it's garbage and throw it away. But if the kitchen and
diningroom got done really well once a week, that would be really
nice and would free up more of my time as well.
My mom recently hired someone to help her clean her house and she's
happy with her, so last night I emailed her and asked her for the
name and number of the person who cleans for her. I've wanted to
for awhile but didn't out of guilt, feeling that I should be able to
handle cleaning and that it's not showing my kids how to live in the
real world if they don't see me doing all the cleaning myself, etc.
But now I'm at the point where I figure that my family and I have
LOTS of strengths. Cleaning and not being messy just aren't among
those strengths. Some people ARE really good at it, and want to earn
money doing it, so by hiring them we're supporting them and helping
ourselves too.
My kids are really messy too. So messy that they can make messes in
1/2 an hour that take me at least 3 hours to clean up. Seriously.
For example, when I was packing the car for the conference I needed
the stapler to staple my mapquest directions. It wasn't on the
shelf. So I asked the boys where it was and they said it was in
their "library". They had been playing library and had assorted
paper, staples, pens, tape, etc. by a bookshelf. There were at least
100 kids' books all over the floor in that area and it took me an
hour to put them back on the shelf, sort garbage paper from paper
that can still be used, etc. until I made my way far enough into the
pile to find the stapler. They probably had been playing library for
an hour and I spent an hour cleaning up enough to find the stapler
and never did get it cleaned up before the conference (and STILL
haven't gotten it cleaned up and now there's more mess added to the
room.) Now added to that in addition to the usual array of toys,
papers, magazines etc strewn around the floor, is yarn. Lots and
lots of yarn, because they tied the room up in a "spider web" and
when they were done they cut the spider web apart and left the string
there. If I ask them to help me clean the stuff up they usually say
no, no matter how joyfully I ask them. So it stays a mess or I stay
up real late or get up real early to get it done, and I get tired and
cranky. Adding a 1 year old lab puppy who joyfully plays with two
young boys doesn't help keep things neat either. The mess my boys
can make is magnified considerably when they start playing with the
dog. It's unbelievable, because of course when that dog gets excited
and runs around, just his wagging tail can wipe everything off of the
coffeetable in 5 seconds! lol Give them half an hour and the room is
trashed. I'm just hoping that as they get older they'll start making
less messes. When they're 15 and 17, maybe they won't find joy in
turning styrofoam into snow that covers the whole downstairs. <g> If
*I* can last that long!
It's interesting that you think your messes are because you're not at
home (different kinds of messes I realize, because your kids are of
different ages and genders and personalities), because for awhile I
thought my solution would be trying to get them out more where they
could make messes and it wouldn't require hours and hours of cleaning
afterwards. Like outdoors places to play with rocks and sticks and
leaves that it didn't matter where they ended up, or maybe going
frequently to playgrounds or children's museums. But they don't
really want much of that--they make themselves pretty clear that they
just want to be home.
So my current hope for staying sane is the possibility of hiring
someone once a week. :)
Sheila
> those of us who don't spend much time at home.I don't know, we spend most of our time at home and it's a huge issue
for us too. Maybe it's more of a personality thing? I think some
women have more of a "nesting" instinct. I remember being at a
Christian women's conference and they were talking about how women
have a natural instinct to "nest" by having things "just so" in their
house, but men just drop thing wherever and don't care about their
atmosphere. That's a bit of a stereotype but it does seem to have a
lot of truth to it when I look at irl women I know. I know LOTS of
women who just can't rest or think in a house that's messy. But
somehow I seemed to miss out on some of that "nesting" instinct. I
would like it to not be messy, but I'm not willing or able to do the
amount of work required to keep things neat all the time. I would
love to challenge flylady to come to my home and keep up with my
boys' messes. ;) But her solution would probably be to constantly
tell them they can't make such big messes.
> Not even close. My kids and I have GREAT relationships - andthey're
> nice, helpful kids. But I am tired of the mess and they are reallycan't
> messy. And I am the one tired of it and the one who is getting
> resentful because I am the one who cares, but I can't keep up and
> clean up enough behind them and still do the other things I want todo.
> Frustrated, I am.Have you considered hiring someone? I'm seriously considering it.
Once a week maybe, just to scrub down the kitchen and diningroom
really well. Other rooms would be too hard for a cleaning person to
do, because the problem is stuff--toys and papers and stuff that no
one outside of the family would know what to do with it all. For
example, I know that the yellow construction paper that's been run
through the shredder is Luke's "spaghetti", but a cleaning lady might
think it's garbage and throw it away. But if the kitchen and
diningroom got done really well once a week, that would be really
nice and would free up more of my time as well.
My mom recently hired someone to help her clean her house and she's
happy with her, so last night I emailed her and asked her for the
name and number of the person who cleans for her. I've wanted to
for awhile but didn't out of guilt, feeling that I should be able to
handle cleaning and that it's not showing my kids how to live in the
real world if they don't see me doing all the cleaning myself, etc.
But now I'm at the point where I figure that my family and I have
LOTS of strengths. Cleaning and not being messy just aren't among
those strengths. Some people ARE really good at it, and want to earn
money doing it, so by hiring them we're supporting them and helping
ourselves too.
My kids are really messy too. So messy that they can make messes in
1/2 an hour that take me at least 3 hours to clean up. Seriously.
For example, when I was packing the car for the conference I needed
the stapler to staple my mapquest directions. It wasn't on the
shelf. So I asked the boys where it was and they said it was in
their "library". They had been playing library and had assorted
paper, staples, pens, tape, etc. by a bookshelf. There were at least
100 kids' books all over the floor in that area and it took me an
hour to put them back on the shelf, sort garbage paper from paper
that can still be used, etc. until I made my way far enough into the
pile to find the stapler. They probably had been playing library for
an hour and I spent an hour cleaning up enough to find the stapler
and never did get it cleaned up before the conference (and STILL
haven't gotten it cleaned up and now there's more mess added to the
room.) Now added to that in addition to the usual array of toys,
papers, magazines etc strewn around the floor, is yarn. Lots and
lots of yarn, because they tied the room up in a "spider web" and
when they were done they cut the spider web apart and left the string
there. If I ask them to help me clean the stuff up they usually say
no, no matter how joyfully I ask them. So it stays a mess or I stay
up real late or get up real early to get it done, and I get tired and
cranky. Adding a 1 year old lab puppy who joyfully plays with two
young boys doesn't help keep things neat either. The mess my boys
can make is magnified considerably when they start playing with the
dog. It's unbelievable, because of course when that dog gets excited
and runs around, just his wagging tail can wipe everything off of the
coffeetable in 5 seconds! lol Give them half an hour and the room is
trashed. I'm just hoping that as they get older they'll start making
less messes. When they're 15 and 17, maybe they won't find joy in
turning styrofoam into snow that covers the whole downstairs. <g> If
*I* can last that long!
It's interesting that you think your messes are because you're not at
home (different kinds of messes I realize, because your kids are of
different ages and genders and personalities), because for awhile I
thought my solution would be trying to get them out more where they
could make messes and it wouldn't require hours and hours of cleaning
afterwards. Like outdoors places to play with rocks and sticks and
leaves that it didn't matter where they ended up, or maybe going
frequently to playgrounds or children's museums. But they don't
really want much of that--they make themselves pretty clear that they
just want to be home.
So my current hope for staying sane is the possibility of hiring
someone once a week. :)
Sheila
kayb85
> I was a feminist before being an unschooler. As a feminist, Ican't
> support the line that only the person who cares about cleanlinessshould
> have to clean.But if the people who don't care about cleanliness are forced to
>
> More thoughts later, if I can articulate them.
>
> Betsy
clean, how is that different than having them be forced to do
schoolwork, or eat food they don't like?
Yet, I think my kids like it when the house is cleaned up. They just
don't want to be the ones to clean it. I don't either for that
matter, but I suck it up and do it and try really hard not to be
resentful.
For example, today my 7 year old spilled ketchup on the carpet while
I was sitting next to him playing a game with his sister. He told me
he needed a napkin. I told him they were in on the diningroom
table. He said, "Why can't you get it?" and I said, "Because I'm in
the middle of a game" and he said, "No, you get it". So I stopped
playing the game for a minute, got up and got him his napkin and
cleaned it for him. If I hadn't, he wouldn't have either, and we
would have had a nasty, icky stain on the carpet. It makes me feel
like more of a servant than a mom sometimes, but the only other
solution I can see is either shaming them or yelling or telling
him, "Either you clean that up or... (punishment).
Sheila
Angel
I do not think your issue has anything to do with your being a woman, but that in people taking personal responsibility. I personally believe that home schooling in part is about basic home making skills, and that includes cleaning. I make cleaning a viable home school activity in my home. I tell my two teens that these *are* their chores for the day. If they do not do them they lose basic privileges. I have even gone to the extent of making them lose their right to eat if they do not do what they are supposed to. The fact is learning to take care of one's home is the first step to self responsibility, and I cannot see that it is not an imperative life skill. I think we rob them of the opportunity to be self reliant if we do everything for them, and we teach them that others are there to merely *serve* them. I have used the approach of *you earn what you get* since they were very young, but it is something that requires constant reinforcement. It may seem tiring after a time reinforcing, and you feel like you would just rather do it yourself, but eventually it will pay off. My son did the dishes badly on purpose for several years, figuring it would get him out of doing them. Eventually though he came to realize that it was he that was suffering also in doing so! He now does them quite well, and he really does care. The lack of children caring about their immediate environ is surely indicative that they are feeling a lack of self esteem in themselves, and it is important to really be encouraging and supportive in all that they do right. I have found nagging does not work, only action...immediate action. Do it, or else...and stick to the *or else*. As soon as you give them a way out, they will take it. Eventually they will find it takes more effort to not do what they should be doing, than doing the act it's self. Children need some measure of discipline, and eventually it will engrain enough into them that it is no longer needed to such a degree. I often utilize a message board, and list the daily chores there. Also, it is important to give a time period that is acceptable to get them done. For example, all chores must be done by 5 p.m., etc. Blessings & Namaste!
-Angel
** Not even close. My kids and I have GREAT relationships - and they're
nice, helpful kids. But I am tired of the mess and they are really
messy. And I am the one tired of it and the one who is getting
resentful because I am the one who cares, but I can't keep up and can't
clean up enough behind them and still do the other things I want to do.
Frustrated, I am.**
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-Angel
** Not even close. My kids and I have GREAT relationships - and they're
nice, helpful kids. But I am tired of the mess and they are really
messy. And I am the one tired of it and the one who is getting
resentful because I am the one who cares, but I can't keep up and can't
clean up enough behind them and still do the other things I want to do.
Frustrated, I am.**
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/4/04 2:07:46 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< > I was a feminist before being an unschooler. As a feminist, I
can't
My husband cares more about automobiles so he's the one who changes the oil
and refills the window-squirt, etc. If he dies, I'll pay more attention to
that, but for now I don't.
I'd rather do the laundry myself than risk Keith putting something in the
dryer that had never been in the dryer once in its twenty years (which he did
lately, but I saved it while it was still damp) or washing Marty's Nickelback
shirt in hot or putting it in the dryer, so that it wouldn't fit him anymore.
He loves that shirt, and I love him.
"Division of labor" doesn't have to be by gender or age any more than it
should be divided equally by the minute and women required to do half the
traditional male tasks, in exchange for men doing half the traditional "women's work."
Children show up because parents have sex. If for that they should be put to
work, those who can justify that should go on and do it, and those who can't
should find some different way.
Sandra
<< > I was a feminist before being an unschooler. As a feminist, I
can't
> support the line that only the person who cares about cleanlinessshould
> have to clean. >>I'm still a feminist, but somewhere in there realism might pop up.
My husband cares more about automobiles so he's the one who changes the oil
and refills the window-squirt, etc. If he dies, I'll pay more attention to
that, but for now I don't.
I'd rather do the laundry myself than risk Keith putting something in the
dryer that had never been in the dryer once in its twenty years (which he did
lately, but I saved it while it was still damp) or washing Marty's Nickelback
shirt in hot or putting it in the dryer, so that it wouldn't fit him anymore.
He loves that shirt, and I love him.
"Division of labor" doesn't have to be by gender or age any more than it
should be divided equally by the minute and women required to do half the
traditional male tasks, in exchange for men doing half the traditional "women's work."
Children show up because parents have sex. If for that they should be put to
work, those who can justify that should go on and do it, and those who can't
should find some different way.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Sep 4, 2004, at 12:55 PM, kayb85 wrote:
sort of creative art is the number one activity around here (well,
singing at the tops of their voices is number one, but it doesn't
interfere with the art). Collages, ceramics, mosaics, oil painting,
origami, spinning, weaving, knitting, crocheting --- these are always
all over the place.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> When they're 15 and 17, maybe they won't find joy inOh dear. Did I forget to mention that when we ARE at home, that some
> turning styrofoam into snow that covers the whole downstairs. <g> If
> *I* can last that long!
sort of creative art is the number one activity around here (well,
singing at the tops of their voices is number one, but it doesn't
interfere with the art). Collages, ceramics, mosaics, oil painting,
origami, spinning, weaving, knitting, crocheting --- these are always
all over the place.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/4/04 2:02:26 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< Have you considered hiring someone? I'm seriously considering it.
Once a week maybe, just to scrub down the kitchen and diningroom
really well. >>
It's cheaper than a counsellor, probably (or the same, but you get a cleaner
house <g>).
Some people can't carry a tune, some aren't good cooks, some aren't gardeners
(and their houseplants die) and some can't sew on a button. Some can't keep
house, but they're really great at inspiring and helping teens to do Girl
Scouts and 4-H and theatre, and explaining mathematics to people who really want
to know, and at keeping in-person support groups going for years, and inspiring
people all around them. Pam Sorooshian is, anyway. I've seen her house. I
know her family.
I don't know. One thing I said at the conference is that sometimes my house
is a mess, but my kids are not a mess.
Sandra
<< Have you considered hiring someone? I'm seriously considering it.
Once a week maybe, just to scrub down the kitchen and diningroom
really well. >>
It's cheaper than a counsellor, probably (or the same, but you get a cleaner
house <g>).
Some people can't carry a tune, some aren't good cooks, some aren't gardeners
(and their houseplants die) and some can't sew on a button. Some can't keep
house, but they're really great at inspiring and helping teens to do Girl
Scouts and 4-H and theatre, and explaining mathematics to people who really want
to know, and at keeping in-person support groups going for years, and inspiring
people all around them. Pam Sorooshian is, anyway. I've seen her house. I
know her family.
I don't know. One thing I said at the conference is that sometimes my house
is a mess, but my kids are not a mess.
Sandra
AM Brown
> If they do not do them they lose basic privileges. I have even gone to the extent of >making them lose their right to eat if they do not do what they are supposed to.I would choose a messy house over having an adversarial relationship with my family anyday! We work together and if I'm feeling over whelmed it just means it is problem solving time and we figure it out together.
Anna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**The fact is learning to take care of one's home is the first step to
self responsibility, and I cannot see that it is not an imperative life
skill.**
As an unschooler, I don't think that forced assignments are the most
effective way for a child to learn. So I don't think that assigned
chores are necessarily an effective way for a child to learn to keep house.
** Do it, or else...and stick to the *or else*. As soon as you give them
a way out, they will take it.**
A non-punishing approach works really well at my house. (For everything
except getting the house clean. Right now, the house just isn't clean.)
Betsy
self responsibility, and I cannot see that it is not an imperative life
skill.**
As an unschooler, I don't think that forced assignments are the most
effective way for a child to learn. So I don't think that assigned
chores are necessarily an effective way for a child to learn to keep house.
** Do it, or else...and stick to the *or else*. As soon as you give them
a way out, they will take it.**
A non-punishing approach works really well at my house. (For everything
except getting the house clean. Right now, the house just isn't clean.)
Betsy
mamaaj2000
> > I was a feminist before being an unschooler. As a feminist, II hope there's an answer somewhere in between! My dh cares much, much
> can't
> > support the line that only the person who cares about cleanliness
> should
> > have to clean.
> But if the people who don't care about cleanliness are forced to
> clean, how is that different than having them be forced to do
> schoolwork, or eat food they don't like?
more about the house being clean and picked up than I do. To me, it's
nice when it's clean, but I have other priorities. Like sleep.
I respect that it's important to him and since I'm kinda fond of him,
I try to help meet his need for cleanliness. Since I'm home with the
kids all day while he's out at work, I do more cleaning up than he
does. (But I used to get really annoyed when he would pick up his
stuff and have the attitude of "the rest is your problem." Ummm,
that's not the way to get me into the mood of wanting to help you
with YOUR need for a clean house, which is your mother's fault
because she cared a lot more about the house than about the
kids...but I digress. We've worked this out, mostly.)
We have someone come and clean most of the house (just not the
bedrooms because we're never in them except to sleep, so they don't
get dirty very quickly). They come every two weeks. The best part
about it for me is that I'm motivated to pick up the living room and
kitchen so that they can clean the whole rug, etc.!
Maybe when I grow up I'll learn to motivate myself, but for now, I'm
okay with the outside motivation of dh's wants and the cleaning
service's need. Since I stopped even asking ds to clean up with me,
but mentioned the "clean slate" concept, he's occasionally really
helpful and often a bit helpful. Dd seems to have gotten dh's
cleaning genes, but maybe she'll grow out of it.
Of course, all my "things work well here" bs is from before I got
pregnant. Now (12 weeks and 3 days, but who's counting) the place is
so messy I can barely stand it. I do have a need to not step on toys
all the time. And I agree with the comment about how long it takes to
clean up. It's unbelievable.
--aj, needing to channel Flylady and just clean up for X number of
minutes and not worry about how big a job it is
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/4/2004 3:33:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lucidangel@... writes:
My son did the dishes badly on purpose for several years, figuring it would
get him out of doing them.
---------------
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as this was written by someone who had
only joined the list today/Saturday, and the children in question are teenagers,
I'm assuming that they were not unschooled, and so this post is not written
from an unschooling point of view.
-=Do it, or else...and stick to the *or else*-=-
"Or else" what?
-=-Children need some measure of discipline, and eventually it will engrain
enough into them that it is no longer needed to such a degree.-=-
This is a very traditional justification for controlling children.
Do you also try to control their academic lives?
("I make cleaning a viable home school activity in my home.")
Are you an unschooler, or wanting to move more in that direction?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lucidangel@... writes:
My son did the dishes badly on purpose for several years, figuring it would
get him out of doing them.
---------------
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as this was written by someone who had
only joined the list today/Saturday, and the children in question are teenagers,
I'm assuming that they were not unschooled, and so this post is not written
from an unschooling point of view.
-=Do it, or else...and stick to the *or else*-=-
"Or else" what?
-=-Children need some measure of discipline, and eventually it will engrain
enough into them that it is no longer needed to such a degree.-=-
This is a very traditional justification for controlling children.
Do you also try to control their academic lives?
("I make cleaning a viable home school activity in my home.")
Are you an unschooler, or wanting to move more in that direction?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angel
I am an unschooler, and have unschooled my children for their whole lives. Yes they are teens now, but they weren't always. Unschooling in my opinion is not an excuse to not teach values and responsibility. I refuse to live in a pig pen at the expense of giving my children the freedom to be slobs. *Or else* means... or else you won't get to play video games, go out and see your friends, eat dinner with the rest of the family, or whatever works in the case of the individual. My children set their own hours, they do what they want for their schooling, they have almost 100% freedom to do as they choose...but they must learn that they are not royalty born with a silver spoon hanging out of their mouth, and that they can't walk all over their providers. I think that not requiring children to do their part is teaching them that they never have to give if they do not want to. In my opinion this creates very selfish children who care little about the needs of others. I told my son about this debate, he is 14, and he wants to know what makes the parents have to clean? What if we all just decided to screw it, we don't want to clean...then who in the heck does the cleaning?????? We are not all able to afford maid service, and I certainly think living in filth and chaos is not a viable way of raising children. If my child *ever* told me to go do it myself, when it was sometihng that was *their* responsibility, I would definitely realize there was a serious problem going on that was only going to get worse. Almost all animals in the animal kingdom require some amount of training, and almost all animals are taught to maintain proper hygiene of themselves and their environ. What is to stop such children from soiling other people's homes when visiting, or throwing trash on the ground in public places? If they do not have to take care of themselves at home, why would they anywhere else? I am done with this discussion, it is really not my business to tell others how to raise their children. I was merely giving my perspective as to how *I* raise my children. It has worked for me, and that is what is important. Blessings & Namaste!
-Angel
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-Angel
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I can't even begin to imagine being comfortable treating children/anyone this way. Disturbing, really. Tess
my home. I tell my two teens
my home. I tell my two teens
> that these *are* their chores for the day. If they do not do them they lose[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> basic privileges. I have even gone to the extent of making them lose their right
> to eat if they do not do what they are supposed to.
kayb85
>some
> Oh dear. Did I forget to mention that when we ARE at home, that
> sort of creative art is the number one activity around here (well,always
> singing at the tops of their voices is number one, but it doesn't
> interfere with the art). Collages, ceramics, mosaics, oil painting,
> origami, spinning, weaving, knitting, crocheting --- these are
> all over the place.So, say they're doing origami. What happens with the paper scraps?
With the paper and scissors when they're done with the project? If
they pull a piece of paper off of the shelf and 2 fall off with it
accidentally and land on the floor, do they pick them up or just
leave them there?
That's what we're dealing with at our house right now. This
conversation is very timely because dh and I have been talking it
through. The level of messiness bothers him a lot. He pointed out
that when I do a big cleanup of a room I throw a lot away, sometimes
throwing away as much garbage as I pick up toys. He wants to go to
the kids and ask if we could at least just throw away garbage when
we're done with it. Not just them, but all of us, for the purpose of
the whole household running more smoothly. *I* sometimes don't throw
away a wrapper when I'm done with it right away but wait until a
cleanup session and clean it all up, but that doesn't work anymore
with 5 people leaving stuff behind, because it's me being the one to
go behind and do huge cleanup sessions for everyone and it's just too
much for one person.
I asked him what we will do if we remind them and they say, "No, I
don't want to throw it away" or "You do it for me", and he said he
doesn't know. They don't respond that way to them, at least not very
often. They're more likely to respond that way to me. He pointed
out that when he takes them swimming, they all just take the noodles
and pool equipment out of the pool when they're done. When they
finish riding their bikes, they just automatically bring their bikes
up onto the sidewalk or at least ask an adult to help them do it. No
one makes them do those things, no one threatens or yells or sets up
chore charts or anything to get them to do it, they just do because
of the matter of fact way he has of "let's put all the toys from the
pool up on the deck" way that he has. So why do they just leave
garbage all over the place in the house? Probably my bad example and
my needing to learn more about not setting myself up as servant. Not
that mothers shouldn't serve their kids, but in my desparate attempts
to be the perfect mother I somehow managed to portray too much of a
servant-view of myself to the point where they didn't know who I was
or what I was interested in because all I did was serve them and
ignore my own needs. But healing and balance is happening, and it's
nice to see progress being made. :) So anyway, I said to dh that it
might be better if *he* be the one to do most of the reminding about
throwing trash away for awhile at least, because he's more natural
about it. He understands the reason because we've talked it through
thoroughly and he's willing to not yell and scream and threaten
because he sees clearly now where the problem started and what needs
to be done to get us back on the right track. What a great guy! :)
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/4/2004 4:15:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lucidangel@... writes:
I am done with this discussion, it is really not my business to tell others
how to raise their children. I was merely giving my perspective as to how *I*
raise my children. It has worked for me, and that is what is important.
----------------
For many months this list had a policy of preventing new members from posting.
This type of response (from a new member, on the first day) was part of the
reason for it.
For the past month or two, though, we (the half-dozen+ moderators) have
allowed new members to post even when it seems they might receive a stronger
reaction than they are prepared for.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lucidangel@... writes:
I am done with this discussion, it is really not my business to tell others
how to raise their children. I was merely giving my perspective as to how *I*
raise my children. It has worked for me, and that is what is important.
----------------
For many months this list had a policy of preventing new members from posting.
This type of response (from a new member, on the first day) was part of the
reason for it.
For the past month or two, though, we (the half-dozen+ moderators) have
allowed new members to post even when it seems they might receive a stronger
reaction than they are prepared for.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AM Brown
>In my opinion this creates very selfish children who care little about the needs of >others.I realize Angel is 'done' with this discussion, so I'm just putting this out there:)
Threats and punishments may get the house clean but I'm more interested in providing tools to solve problems. I don't want the tool my kids take away from growing up to be threats and punishment. I'd much rather them learn to listen and genuinely care about the people around them and learn to live in community with them. This is what works in my family.
Anna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/4/2004 4:15:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lucidangel@... writes:
I refuse to live in a pig pen at the expense of giving my children the
freedom to be slobs.
---------
Luckily, those aren't the only two choices.
-=- *Or else* means... or else you won't get to play video games, go out and
see your friends, eat dinner with the rest of the family, or whatever works in
the case of the individual.-=-
Withholding food goes against many principles, not the least of which is
people can't feel safe or learn unless their basic physical needs are met.
-=-My children set their own hours, they do what they want for their
schooling,-=-
If they have "schooling" at all, perhaps your vision of unschooling is not
what the people on this list have been used to. It really does help when
someone comes onto the list if they read for a while to see what the tone of the
list is.
-=but they must learn that they are not royalty born with a silver spoon
hanging out of their mouth, and that they can't walk all over their providers.-=-
This harsh language/indication of thought seems unlikely to create warmth
within a home.
Priorities are different in different families, but in any case in which the
children's self esteem is a higher priority than cleanliness, the statements
above will seem foreign and wrong.
There are many families with helpful children, teens who are not "walking all
over their providers," where the withholding of food has never been
considered.
-=- I think that not requiring children to do their part is teaching them
that . . .-=-
Requiring and teaching neither are necessary for learning.
If learning is a higher priority than teaching or requirements, the whole
point of view changes.
-=-I think that not requiring children to do their part is teaching them that
they never have to give if they do not want to. In my opinion this creates
very selfish children who care little about the needs of others.-=-
In your opinion that would create selfish children?
In my *experience* it does not.
If an environment is created in which children WANT to be helpful and kind
and generous, then they are not giving what they do not want to give, and yet
they can still be helpful and kind and generous.
There are people here who spent much of last weekend with my two younger
children, who are 12 and 15. As far as I know, they were both helpful and kind
and generous. I required nothing of them. They gave much.
-=-I told my son about this debate, he is 14, and he wants to know what makes
the parents have to clean? What if we all just decided to screw it, we don't
want to clean...then who in the heck does the cleaning??????-=-
Parents clean because they want to. You do NOT have to clean. You are
choosing that over the alternative. Some parents don't want to clean, and so they
try to force their children to do it. That's not illegal nor in most people's
minds immoral. But there are other options.
-=- If my child *ever* told me to go do it myself, when it was sometihng that
was *their* responsibility, I would definitely realize there was a serious
problem going on that was only going to get worse. -=-
I see the provision of food and shelter the responsibility of the parent, and
when I see a parent telling children to do it themselves, I expect (from
experience) that the problem will get worse. Some children become resentful or
sneaky. Some cannot wait to get out of the house so they can make their own
rules and make their own decisions.
-=-My son did the dishes badly on purpose for several years, figuring it
would get him out of doing them. Eventually though he came to realize that it was
he that was suffering also in doing so!-=-
Maybe he was too young to do them well.
If the purpose of clean dishes is the safety of the family from germs, then
they should be clean, and that is not the responsibility of a child. If dishes
are cleaned for the purpose of training children to clean and there is no
other purpose, then I think people should use paper plates and not torment one
another.
-=-What is to stop such children from soiling other people's homes when
visiting, or throwing trash on the ground in public places?-=-
My children pick up other people's trash, and they do not soil other people's
homes when visiting. They tend to leave places cleaner than they found them,
in subtle ways or large. Yet I have never withheld food or video games from
them. So there is another way.
-=-If they do not have to take care of themselves at home, why would they
anywhere else?-=-
It's a good question, and in the context of principles being more important
than rules, the answer is obvious.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lucidangel@... writes:
I refuse to live in a pig pen at the expense of giving my children the
freedom to be slobs.
---------
Luckily, those aren't the only two choices.
-=- *Or else* means... or else you won't get to play video games, go out and
see your friends, eat dinner with the rest of the family, or whatever works in
the case of the individual.-=-
Withholding food goes against many principles, not the least of which is
people can't feel safe or learn unless their basic physical needs are met.
-=-My children set their own hours, they do what they want for their
schooling,-=-
If they have "schooling" at all, perhaps your vision of unschooling is not
what the people on this list have been used to. It really does help when
someone comes onto the list if they read for a while to see what the tone of the
list is.
-=but they must learn that they are not royalty born with a silver spoon
hanging out of their mouth, and that they can't walk all over their providers.-=-
This harsh language/indication of thought seems unlikely to create warmth
within a home.
Priorities are different in different families, but in any case in which the
children's self esteem is a higher priority than cleanliness, the statements
above will seem foreign and wrong.
There are many families with helpful children, teens who are not "walking all
over their providers," where the withholding of food has never been
considered.
-=- I think that not requiring children to do their part is teaching them
that . . .-=-
Requiring and teaching neither are necessary for learning.
If learning is a higher priority than teaching or requirements, the whole
point of view changes.
-=-I think that not requiring children to do their part is teaching them that
they never have to give if they do not want to. In my opinion this creates
very selfish children who care little about the needs of others.-=-
In your opinion that would create selfish children?
In my *experience* it does not.
If an environment is created in which children WANT to be helpful and kind
and generous, then they are not giving what they do not want to give, and yet
they can still be helpful and kind and generous.
There are people here who spent much of last weekend with my two younger
children, who are 12 and 15. As far as I know, they were both helpful and kind
and generous. I required nothing of them. They gave much.
-=-I told my son about this debate, he is 14, and he wants to know what makes
the parents have to clean? What if we all just decided to screw it, we don't
want to clean...then who in the heck does the cleaning??????-=-
Parents clean because they want to. You do NOT have to clean. You are
choosing that over the alternative. Some parents don't want to clean, and so they
try to force their children to do it. That's not illegal nor in most people's
minds immoral. But there are other options.
-=- If my child *ever* told me to go do it myself, when it was sometihng that
was *their* responsibility, I would definitely realize there was a serious
problem going on that was only going to get worse. -=-
I see the provision of food and shelter the responsibility of the parent, and
when I see a parent telling children to do it themselves, I expect (from
experience) that the problem will get worse. Some children become resentful or
sneaky. Some cannot wait to get out of the house so they can make their own
rules and make their own decisions.
-=-My son did the dishes badly on purpose for several years, figuring it
would get him out of doing them. Eventually though he came to realize that it was
he that was suffering also in doing so!-=-
Maybe he was too young to do them well.
If the purpose of clean dishes is the safety of the family from germs, then
they should be clean, and that is not the responsibility of a child. If dishes
are cleaned for the purpose of training children to clean and there is no
other purpose, then I think people should use paper plates and not torment one
another.
-=-What is to stop such children from soiling other people's homes when
visiting, or throwing trash on the ground in public places?-=-
My children pick up other people's trash, and they do not soil other people's
homes when visiting. They tend to leave places cleaner than they found them,
in subtle ways or large. Yet I have never withheld food or video games from
them. So there is another way.
-=-If they do not have to take care of themselves at home, why would they
anywhere else?-=-
It's a good question, and in the context of principles being more important
than rules, the answer is obvious.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**I told my son about this debate, he is 14, and he wants to know what
makes the parents have to clean?**
Personal preferences.
What makes people have to not drive any faster than the speed limit?
What kind of compliance do you think we are getting in the U.S.?
Betsy
makes the parents have to clean?**
Personal preferences.
What makes people have to not drive any faster than the speed limit?
What kind of compliance do you think we are getting in the U.S.?
Betsy