Shannon Entin

Hello! I am new to this list, have been reading for several weeks and
enjoying the conversation and information. I am Shannon, dh Paul, and ds
Logan who will be 6 in November. And we have a baby girl due any day now!
We live in northwest NJ, very close to Easton, PA. My greatest challenge
so far has been to "unschool myself" and trust that learning will happen.

We do not receive any support from our extended family in our unschooling
decision. We are constantly asked "are you still planning to homeschool?"
(Forget about even discussing unschooling - "home"schooling is tough enough
for them to accept.)

My son is quite attached to Mom & Dad. He has no interest in participating
in any type of class, sport team, instruction, etc, unless I am right by
his side. We have tried a couple trial classes (in things that he seems to
truly enjoy such as tae kwon do and gymanstics), and he typically lays on
the floor and cries. He will not "line up" or do what the other kids are
doing or follow the instructor.

My family tells me it is "unhealthy" for him to be with me (or Dad) all the
time and he needs to be able to interact with others and follow instruction
from others. I do not agree with this, but on some level it does eat away
at me deep inside. I was in every class imaginable as a child and I think
it is hard for me to understand how he could not want to participate in
these types of things. But I have realized that I need to accept his
personality and find ways to work WITH it, not against it.

So my question is - does anyone have any advice on how to work with this
personality style? I can see clearly what he is interested in, but quite
often I just don't know how to further his learning without looking for
"outside" help (class, etc.) For example, he is extremely interested in
medieval living, especially the fighting. (And I have read with great
interest the recent thread on SCA.) I suggested a fencing class or getting
involved in a Ren Faire. He tells me very bluntly that he will only do it
if I do it with him. OK, but it's not that easy to find this type of
scenario. Most will expect the children to participate with other children
- not adults. Am I just looking in the wrong places?

I know that he will not be "hanging on my leg" when he is 16 years old. I
cherish the fact that he wants to be with me now. But the part of me that
is "schooled" is concerned that he may be missing his chance for many
things. For example, the typical schooled child will begin on a T-ball or
little league team (my son also loves baseball, when played by *his* rules
with Mom & Dad) at, what, age 5 or 6? So if my son is not comfortable
participating on a team until he's 10 - how will we find a "place" for him
since he has not started on the same level?

Thanks for listening/reading. Looking forward to chatting with you all!


"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire."
-- William Butler Yeats

Shannon Entin
entinfamily@...
www.ShannonEntin.com and www.TheEntins.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

** We do not receive any support from our extended family in our
unschooling
decision. We are constantly asked "are you still planning to homeschool?"
(Forget about even discussing unschooling - "home"schooling is tough enough
for them to accept.)**

(My son is 10.)

When my son was "kindergarden age" I nearly avoided in-laws for an
entire year. So, it appears that fear of criticism is an issue that
even mouthy and outspoken people like me can have a problem with. You
are not alone. (I stopped hiding after the first year. I stress to
the grandparents the advantages of having a kid who is free to spend a
day with relatives any time they are in town. And I'll shamelessly tell
them that I think having time to be with extended family is more
valuable than being in school. One can learn a lot about history,
culture, and any other special interests from family members.)

** My son is quite attached to Mom & Dad. He has no interest in
participating
in any type of class, sport team, instruction, etc, unless I am right by
his side. We have tried a couple trial classes (in things that he seems to
truly enjoy such as tae kwon do and gymanstics), and he typically lays on
the floor and cries.**

There's a big variation in how much kids like group activites. I did
some Kindermusik when my son was three, and even though the mom or dad
is there sitting on the floor doing the musical activities with the kid
and dancing around in circles with them, there were some kids that
declined to participate most of the time. I don't think it's good to
force it. I won't insist that my son do an activity that he is opposed to.

I have an only child, and sometimes I borrow a more enthusiastic child
when we are going some place with activities. (I volunteered my husband
to supervise an extra kid at the Sacramento conference so the boys could
play on the game deck and go do the climbing wall together.)

** My family tells me it is "unhealthy" for him to be with me (or Dad)
all the
time...**

I don't believe that this is true. I think it's a leftover from
old-fashioned, Germanic parenting that was reinforced by Freud. The
underlying belief is that a boy who spends a lot of time being close to
his mom will be a "girlie-man" (as Ahnold calls it) and won't be hard
and cold enough to be a valuable member of the Prussian army. Let's
think about goals here! <g> We're not trying to raise relentless
killing machines <g>, so let's throw out the tactics that were developed
for that.

** I do not agree with this, but on some level it does eat away
at me deep inside.**

Yeah, I'm always more comfortable when other people agree with me.

**I was in every class imaginable as a child and I think
it is hard for me to understand how he could not want to participate in
these types of things. But I have realized that I need to accept his
personality and find ways to work WITH it, not against it.**

Right. People are different. My mom was really extroverted and really
needed to get out of the house, and as a kid I ended up feeling that I
was inferior because I wasn't as "brave" and good with people as she
was. (Yes, she got impatient with my shyness a lot.) (I'm not saying
you are the same, it's just the first thing that springs into my mind
when I try to visualize a kid that doesn't want to be in class.)

** So my question is - does anyone have any advice on how to work with this
personality style? **

Do you go to a local unschooling or homeschooling park day? (That's my
knee jerk "solution" to every social problem.) It might be great to
find another kid that has a really similar temperament and then do stuff
with him.

And keep repeating the quote about education not being "filling a
pail". Teaching doesn't always cause good learning. The teaching can
be confusing, or too slow, etc. Kids who just mess around with stuff
can often learn more that way than through a class.

I think you will be going through a process where you change from thinking:

"how can we learn more about this; I know there must be a class
somewhere?"
to
"how can we learn about this without taking a class?"
to
"how can we have fun with this?"

It's not at all surprising that classes might be your first idea if you
yourself loved taking classes. (My first idea is to always find a book
about something, and that's not what works with my kid.) You're
branching out from your normal pattern of thinking to include wider and
wider possibilities. It'll take practice.

I wish more classes let kids watch first. If all the local parks and
rec classes had video clips on their website, there's a chance that I
could get my kid to take more classes.

**So if my son is not comfortable
participating on a team until he's 10 - how will we find a "place" for him
since he has not started on the same level?**

I don't know. My son is 10 and doesn't play team sports. My husband
wanted to sign him up at 6, but I thought he was too tender and too
likely to burst into tears to play a game with a lot of rules with a lot
of kids he didn't know.

Betsy

Laura Johnson

Hi Shannon,
Your little guy sounds like mine and so does your extended family. Ben is 5.5 and really only wants to do things if I am with him, or his dad. He'll go to a friend's house to play without me, for a few hours and he has a teenage sitter that he really likes, so he is able to be without us, but he prefers to be with me or his dad. Which works out well because we prefer it when he's with us.

My mom and dad are so overly concerned that he is not with other people. "he really needs to be away from you some of the time, this is not normal or healthy for him to be so dependent on you." Blah, blah blah. It makes them crazy that they have friends whose grandkids come and stay most of the summer when they are only 4-5, and he won't even stay overnight. My dad is a huge grouch and a ball of stress, that probably has more to do with it than anything with them. He doesn't like to be there without me.

He also won't take any classes unless I stay. We have great science classes at museums and zoos, when I suggested one that he could go alone for an hour and a half, he said no way! So, I go with him.

As far as it lasting forever, one of my fellow LLL leaders told me this when I asked her about it. Her son never left her side, was homeschooled, co-sleeping, extended nursing, basically similar to us. She thought he'd never become dependent. At the time I asked her about it, he was traveling through Europe alone, and she hadn't talked with him in 2 weeks because he has no cell phone with him, and very little money. He is 23.
So it does happen eventually.

My ds hasn't really showed an interest in sports, he's small for his age and not very athletic (if there is such a thing at 5). I guess I'm just going to let him go at his own pace for things. I don't have any advice or help, but just wanted to let you know, you are not alone.
Laura J
Tampa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

christy austin

>
> ** My family tells me it is "unhealthy" for him to
> be with me (or Dad)
> all the
> time...**
>
> I had to comment on this from a christian mindset.
It states many times in the Bible that parents are
supposed to raise (teach) their children. I don't
know when society decided that it was better for our
children to let other people raise them but they did.
According to society, strangers can educate our
children better, know what is better for them and will
create better, more productive adults. I do not
believe this and I encourage you to believe that you
are his parent and know what is best for him. Whether
you are a christian or not, in my mind you are the
parent that God chose for him and you are the best
parent for him. Believe in yourself, turn aside the
questions with the answers you believe in and go ahead
with what you know to be the best for your child.
Christy Austin



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Carmen McFarlin

Dear Betsy and Elizabeth,

First, let me introduce myself. My name is Carmen and I live in
Austin, Texas, with my husband Michael, and our three daughters,
ages 5, 2.5, and 15 months.

My oldest daughter, Eva, is very cautious and does not like to
participate in large groups of anything. Sometimes, even meeting
ONE new person can overwhelm her and send her into my lap (as
happened last week when we tried to meet with a piano teacher). We
tried dance class...lasted a month, with me in the room the whole
time so that she could check in with me whenever she needed to. We
did do a year of pre-school for three hours four times a week. She
hid behind me at the door or would go slowly toward an acitivity
area, avoiding eye contact with any of the teachers or kids. She
enjoys people, just on HER terms, which usually means small groups
and knowing where I am at all times. She went to vacation bible
school for the firt time this past June, but her grandmother (who
she's very close to) was with her the whole time and it was at a
church that she has gone to since she was two (but this is the first
year she would try vbs).

I used to be really bothered by all of this and wondered if I needed
to "toughen" her up. But I realized that this was because I had
been forced to develop a false bravado as a child as a defense
mechanism. My parents divorced when I was two and I was shuffled
between relatives/friends/daycare as my mom had to work. She
remarried when I was six and looking back, I realized that I was
really miserable but tried my darndest to hide it. I acted out a
lot and became very sarcastic and snotty and tried to pretend
nothing bothered me(STILL working on that!).

I think Betsy is very right when she talks about that old-school
mentality of forcing kids into situations to "toughen them up". I
remember telling another pre-school mom that if Eva didn't want to
go to pre-school, she didn't have to...and the mom was just
flabbergasted. "How will she EVER learn that she HAS to do things,
especially those things she doesn't want to?" she gasped. How,
indeed?! What if she learned instead that she could stay at home
and play with mom and her two younger sisters and be happy and safe
and that her mom and dad would never force her into a room full of
strangers and then walk away, telling her all the while that "it'll
be okay, honey"? Yes, it might turn out to be fun, IF she stopped
crying or hiding in the corner. What about the damage I had done to
her trust of us? How much better if EVA chose to go into that room
of her own accord? And if that never happens, so be it. Life is
full of other things, other riches, that aren't exclusive to a dance
class, an art class, an acting class...all of those things that I've
tried and that we now, SHOCK, do at home!

I think that's been the biggest challenge for me in my unschooling
journey...learning to let go of expectations and just following my
daughters' lead. I know in the long run that each of my daughters
will have a true sense of themselves since they were never forced to
be someone they were not, or never allowed to be who they truly
were. And I, in the process, am getting to know myself all over
again.

Thanks to all of you for sharing your experiences, doubts, fears,
victories, and advice. Life is so exciting and overwhelming at
times, but I always come away from reading these posts with a
renewed sense of purpose.

Best,
Carmen McFarlin

Cornerstone Community Farm

On Thursday 26 August 2004 08:13, Shannon Entin wrote:
> My family tells me it is "unhealthy" for him to be with me (or Dad)
> all the time and he needs to be able to interact with others and
> follow instruction from others.  I do not agree with this, but on
> some level it does eat away at me deep inside.

Relax. Let him grow and stretch his wings. He will eventually become
more social...pushing him can hurt him.

Study done on homeschoolers shows the average homeschooler is in 5.2
activies per kid. (4-H, Boy Scouts, church, volley ball, etc.)

At a young age you can take him to the zoo, museums, parks, library,
etc. lots of chances for you & dad to model social interaction.
Keith

Game-Enthusiast

You wrote:
We do not receive any support from our extended family in our unschooling
decision. We are constantly asked "are you still planning to homeschool?"
(Forget about even discussing unschooling - "home"schooling is tough enough
for them to accept.)

----------------------

I only discuss unschooling with people who I feel have a valid interest or
who I feel will support it, if that's an issue. It's hard sometimes to find
like-minded people, but I'd encourage you to keep searching through
attending homeschool events (or setting up your own, like a game of wiffle
ball at the park) until you find a family or two that both you and your son
hit it off with.

Having that support is very valuable to me. I actively searched for a
friend who would understand unschooling. It's not my nature to seek people
out, generally, but I felt we had a need and so I kept my antennae up,
looking for someone that might fit the bill. My girls were invited to a
birthday party a year and a half ago and I chatted with another mom whose
dd was also at the party and had a dd the same age as my oldest. Our lives
had a lot of parallels and I just had a feeling that we could all be good
friends. It isn't my tendency to call up people I've just met and ask them
to visit, but after the party I got her email address from the lady who
hosted the party and emailed and asked her if she wanted to get together for
a play date. I am so glad I did. She and her dd are now our unschooling
support and best friends.

Keep looking and maybe you will find the support you need.

------------------------
You wrote:
My son is quite attached to Mom & Dad. He has no interest in participating
in any type of class, sport team, instruction, etc, unless I am right by
his side. We have tried a couple trial classes (in things that he seems to
truly enjoy such as tae kwon do and gymanstics), and he typically lays on
the floor and cries. He will not "line up" or do what the other kids are
doing or follow the instructor.
--------------------------------

My girls are just like that. For a while I felt like attending group things
was something we *should* do. <got to have well rounded kids, you
know...ack!> I finally accepted that my kids were just happier staying home
or visiting with friends. (Glad it didn't take me too long to learn that!)
I stopped trying to get them to go to different events. I still offer to
take them to things that come up, if I think they are interested, but if
they decline then I drop it. Life is better this way. They are happier and
I am less stressed. It's no fun anyway to go to a group event and have your
kids clinging to your legs. He'll begin to go to things that interest him
when HE is ready.
------------------------------------------
My family tells me it is "unhealthy" for him to be with me (or Dad) all the
time and he needs to be able to interact with others and follow instruction
from others.

--------------------------------------

What the heck do they know? LOL!

-------------------------------------
You wrote:
I do not agree with this, but on some level it does eat away
at me deep inside. I was in every class imaginable as a child and I think
it is hard for me to understand how he could not want to participate in
these types of things. But I have realized that I need to accept his
personality and find ways to work WITH it, not against it.
----------------------------------------
Try not to let their questioning of you make you question yourself. No one
becomes more outgoing by being forced to interact with other people. If
anything it will make them withdraw further into themselves. He just needs
time and space to develop at his own pace.

My VERY shy dd (9) (never could have imagined this a couple years ago and
it's still hard to believe a year later) entered her cat in a pet show last
fall and stood up in front of a dozen or 20 people and read some notes about
her pet. (same kid who wouldn't read in front of anyone for several years.)
Then she answered questions from the group. I read about the show on a
local homeschool list. I mentioned it to the girls. Both wanted to go. We
wrote up some notes together and typed them up and both girls followed
through with the presentation. (at the last minute I wasn't sure it was
going to work and the cat shit in the crate in the van and got some on him,
but hey. LOL!) It was a homeschool event, but we knew NO ONE there. I
was so proud of them for stepping outside their comfort zone and both girls
were very proud of themselves. It is a fond memory to them and they hope
someone makes another pet show this fall. If no one does, maybe we will
host the event.
---------------------------------------------
You wrote:
So my question is - does anyone have any advice on how to work with this
personality style? I can see clearly what he is interested in, but quite
often I just don't know how to further his learning without looking for
"outside" help (class, etc.)
__________________________

I would suggest books (look for some historically based novels for kids on
the era that interests him.) or going to events that you can watch instead
of being forced to participate in. My kids like historical things but
still don't want to participate in most things. This weekend we went to a
Native American Pow Wow and we just observed the music and dancing and
looked in all the little booths that were selling things. They had a dance
for children where they threw candy and toys in a big circle and the kids
were suppose to dance until the music stopped and then they could pick up
candy. The kids enjoyed watching, but didn't want to participate. That was
fine with me.

You could also try to make homemade period items or find out how kids lived
in those times.

--------------------------------------------------------

You wrote:
For example, he is extremely interested in
medieval living, especially the fighting. (And I have read with great
interest the recent thread on SCA.) I suggested a fencing class or getting
involved in a Ren Faire. He tells me very bluntly that he will only do it
if I do it with him.

-----------------------------------------------

Maybe you could go watch a fencing class together somewhere?

-----------------------------------------------------------
You wrote:
But the part of me that
is "schooled" is concerned that he may be missing his chance for many
things.

------------------------------------

Yeah, he will be missing things. He'll miss being forced to participate in
things that he doesn't want to, for his own good. Don't worry about it.
Really!
-----------------------------
You wrote:
For example, the typical schooled child will begin on a T-ball or
little league team (my son also loves baseball, when played by *his* rules
with Mom & Dad) at, what, age 5 or 6? So if my son is not comfortable
participating on a team until he's 10 - how will we find a "place" for him
since he has not started on the same level?
---------------------------------------

My kids like to play wiffle ball and for the last couple of springs we've
written a note to a local homeschool list that we will be at the park with
balls, bats, and plates at such and such a time, if anyone wants to join us.
We've had good luck with this and everyone has like playing with our relaxed
rules (OK, no rules) The kids hit the ball and run the bases and field
balls, if there are enough kids. It's fun.

Relax and enjoy your little boy. :0)

Angela
game-enthusiast@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Emile Snyder

On Thu, 2004-08-26 at 06:13, Shannon Entin wrote:
> So my question is - does anyone have any advice on how to work with this
> personality style? I can see clearly what he is interested in, but quite
> often I just don't know how to further his learning without looking for
> "outside" help (class, etc.) For example, he is extremely interested in
> medieval living, especially the fighting. (And I have read with great
> interest the recent thread on SCA.) I suggested a fencing class or getting
> involved in a Ren Faire. He tells me very bluntly that he will only do it
> if I do it with him. OK, but it's not that easy to find this type of
> scenario. Most will expect the children to participate with other children
> - not adults. Am I just looking in the wrong places?

When I was young I was interested in a succession of "weird" hobby
things: fly tying, flint knapping, archery, lapidary, traditional story
telling, metal working, SCA, trapping (boy, I look back and cringe at
how violent I seem to have been!) Somehow, my parents managed to find
people willing to relate to this random kid (me) about most of these
things. My dad found a blacksmith that was willing to let me come see
his forge and taught me some basics of using one. Also found an old guy
in the area that was a fur trapper who let me come over and see how it
worked and stuff, got me going on that for awhile. A friends dad took
us both to learn sword and dagger fighting from an SCA guy, and found a
cool teenage juggler who we learned juggling stuff from. My aunt and
uncle found someone who chipped arrowheads that I got to learn that
from.

My point is, none of these were classes, just finding people with the
right skills who were willing to share. In that kind of situation it's
much less "weird" for you and your son to learn them together. And if
your son can form a real relationship (not just a teacher/student one)
with the expert then maybe he would ultimately feel more comfortable
working with them alone?

I don't really know how my parents did it; I'm not that good at finding
and befriending random strangers. But it sure made my life cool that my
parents could!

Good luck,
-emile

Dawn Adams

Shannon writes:
>So my question is - does anyone have any advice on how to work with this
>personality style? I can see clearly what he is interested in, but quite
>often I just don't know how to further his learning without looking for
>"outside" help (class, etc.) For example, he is extremely interested in
>medieval living, especially the fighting. (And I have read with great
>interest the recent thread on SCA.) I suggested a fencing class or getting
>involved in a Ren Faire. He tells me very bluntly that he will only do it
>if I do it with him. OK, but it's not that easy to find this type of
>scenario. Most will expect the children to participate with other children
>- not adults. Am I just looking in the wrong places?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think so! :) Why bother with related classes? Why not pick up some fantasy roleplaying games for your computer, some neat related library books and videos, some middle ages looking stuff (swords, armour) in the halloween aisles, some related toys and anything else he can explore on his own or with you? I was like him as a young child. Going to school, pushing me into lessons, all it did as far as I'm concerned was help delay my social development until I was out of high school where I could finally aproach things on my own terms. Pushing someone into something they don't want to do just causes them to dig in their heels. Let him decide when he's ready. He's obviously not yet.

Dawn (in NS)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sarah

You've already gotten a lot of great advice, but I
couldn't resist!

I have a 5.5 year old daughter who has been raised
*very* attached. Still co-sleeping, nursed for years,
etc. About six months ago, all on her own, she went
from being by my side 24/7 to sleepovers at Grandma's
and friend's houses. I am so happy when I see her
smiling as she goes off into new territory. I am
happy because it has been on her terms and she's
proud.

We tried T-ball for one (half) day. We tried it
because we had moved to a new neighborhood, and the
park is a block from our house. Sophia wanted to take
it...just for the outfit. Before the coach even
started to make it fun, he listed all the rules. It
was awful. It would have been awful for me, and it
definitely was for her. She was done after batting
once and we never looked back. Classes don't make
things fun. She, by the way, likes to play ball in
our backyard once in a while.

I think it is important to remember, too, that there
is not much *real* interacting in a social way at
those types of classes. There is one teacher who
cannot by available in a real one-on-one relationship
with each child, and there are a bunch of kids who are
not allowed to talk to each other. "We are here to
play ball!"

On another note, though, maybe you could invite
someone to your home, as a dinner guest, who shares
interests with your son. It is not a class. But I'm
sure a lot (more) could be learned that way. Also, a
lot of teachers would let you sit in on a class, if
there's a class your son wants, especially if you
volunteer to help!

Sarah Anderson-Thimmes


--- Shannon Entin <entinfamily@...> wrote:

> Hello! I am new to this list, have been reading for
> several weeks and
> enjoying the conversation and information.




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Kristina Kahney

Gosh, I live in such a bubble, I think, LOL! It's hard for me to imagine kids of this age running out wanting to do things away from parents (though I'm sure some do). I just think it is so completely normal for kids that are 5-6-7 yrs old to be hesitant to do classes, group activites, ect. without mom (or even with sometimes). Especially the oldest child.

My 7 yo just started dance last year, and really loves it. She waited until she felt comfortable going "to a class" (as she says) even though she talked about "dance class" since she was 4 or 5.

My 5 (almost 5.5) yr old son says he wants to try soccer this fall. He's not a group kid at all, and is not sure about all of the rules. I assured him if he wasn't comfortable, for whatever reason, then he doesn't have to go. We'll see what he thinks of it, but honestly I'm surprised he's wanting to do it. I think seeing his sister go to "classes" is pushing him along a bit sooner.

So, anyway, it all sounds very normal to me...for whatever that's worth ;)
Kristina



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marcia Miller

My son (now 10) was similar to your son when he was younger. He watched
for a long time as other kids joined classes and away-from-home
activities like swimming lessons, soccer, gymnastics & baseball.
He just wasn't interested. He preferred playing with friends or doing
family activities. So we found things we could do together:

Playtime with friends
Children's theater performances
Visits to the zoo, science center, children's museums
Family swims at the local pool
Family whale watching trips
Building model rockets and setting up an annual "rocket day" event

It wasn't until my son was seven that he was interested in a gymnastics
class, but only after watching two friends in this class for about a
year. He started with a once a week class and then added another when
he was ready. Quite a while later we joined a family unicycling club.

He loved playing baseball at the park, but didn't want to play on a
team until he was nine years old. Then he was ready, and he loved it.
It didn't take very long to learn the basic team skills because he was
really interested and serious about playing ball. The coach really
liked his hard work and good attitude. Many of the other kids seemed
bored and not very motivated to learn to play the game well. I think it
was just one more activity among many for them to attend. If your son
is interested in these types of activities, he'll come to them in his
own good time.

Happy mothering,
Marcia

Penn Acres

When you think of all the little ones that prefer not to do things in classes or groups of "strangers"-( In my own and own extended family this is pretty common -
Just think of all those little 5 yr old Kindergarten kids that are made to go off to school every day. Mine included. Which is why we smartened up with our ggd's and took them out of Kindergarten half way thru the year.
They however did ask for and enjoy some group sports (very laid back small fun groups ) when we were always there.This was at about age 6.
They have always been free to come back to us or leave if they werent in the mood.
Their schooled cousins never wanted to do other activitys at that age. School was enough for them then.
We took their mother to playschool because we thought she need to "play" with other kids. She was so shy and only played near them. We thought we were doing the best thing for her. How stupid was that?
Grace
In the damp and chilly mountains of BC
Where the girls are still cozy in bed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

"I am Shannon, dh Paul, and ds
Logan who will be 6 in November. And we have a baby girl due any day
now!
We live in northwest NJ, very close to Easton, PA."

Hi Shannon. :) I am just a little bit less than 2 hours from
Easton. I have 2 unschooled boys, ages 5 and 7 (as well as an 11 yo
daughter). If you would like to get together with an unschooling
family sometime, I'd love to do that. Email me privately if you're
interested. sheran@...

"My son is quite attached to Mom & Dad. He has no interest in
participating
in any type of class, sport team, instruction, etc, unless I am right
by
his side. We have tried a couple trial classes (in things that he
seems to
truly enjoy such as tae kwon do and gymanstics), and he typically
lays on
the floor and cries. He will not "line up" or do what the other kids
are
doing or follow the instructor.

My boys are like that too. At 5 my oldest boy did swimming lessons
(his older sister was doing them, so I asked if he wanted to try a
class too). He wouldn't go in the water without me, which was
accepted by the swimming class at that age. But even with me, he
refused to participate with the rest of the class (especially when it
involved the instructor trying to get him to go with her!) So Matt
and I went off to our own little section of the pool each day and
played around in the water by ourselves. At 6 he signed up for
soccer (his idea) because he thought it looked fun. Then we got
there and he realized that I wouldn't be playing "with" him. It
wasn't a mom and son soccer team and he wouldn't do it. He wouldn't
even go out on the field for practices unless I did it with him. He
quit soccer. Then at 7 he became interested in karate. I called
around to all the martial arts schools within a reasonable distance
to see if they offer any type of family class where parents/siblings
can take together but the closest I could find was a school that said
parents can be right there watching. We went to a trial lesson. He
wouldn't go out on the floor and wasn't interested in going back
there again because he didn't like that they kept encouraging him to
go out on the floor and try it out. He hasn't tried anything else in
the way of organized classes and activities, but even at park dates
with other homeschoolers, we're not often the family with the mom
sitting talking to other parents watching the kids play. We're the
family with the mom playing with the kids because my kids don't want
to go over to the slide or the swings unless I'm *right* there with
them.

My daughter was/is like this too, and at 11 she's starting to not
need me so much. She IS very discriminating as far as what
activities she chooses to participate in but when she really wants to
do something, she's okay leaving me. So that gives me some comfort
with my boys because I'm seeing first hand that it really doesn't
last forever. :)

Sheila

kayb85

> There's a big variation in how much kids like group activites. I
did
> some Kindermusik when my son was three, and even though the mom or
dad
> is there sitting on the floor doing the musical activities with the
kid
> and dancing around in circles with them, there were some kids that
> declined to participate most of the time. I don't think it's good
to
> force it. I won't insist that my son do an activity that he is
opposed to.

I did kindermusik with my youngest when he was 3 or 4. That didn't
go over. I lol thinking about our last attempt at that class. All
the other kids in the class were doing everything just the way it was
suggested and he looked at me and said, "This is stupid". lol I'm
not knocking kindermusik for those who like it, because for the right
personality it might be a nice fit and I see the value for some
people in participating in a group situation where everyone's doing
the same thing, but I have to admit that at the moment he said that I
looked at kids running around doing whatever little dance they were
supposed to be doing and thought, "Well, yeah, I guess it is kind of
stupid!" When the kindermusik teacher says, "March to the music
while you're waving your scarf in the air", why do so few kids
question marching to the music while waving their scarves in the
air? Why don't more kids say, "Ummm...that's not what I want to do
when I hear this music..." ?

> Right. People are different. My mom was really extroverted and
really
> needed to get out of the house, and as a kid I ended up feeling
that I
> was inferior because I wasn't as "brave" and good with people as
she
> was. (Yes, she got impatient with my shyness a lot.) (I'm not
saying
> you are the same, it's just the first thing that springs into my
mind
> when I try to visualize a kid that doesn't want to be in class.)

Me too. Yikes! I'm not really extroverted but I do like to get out
much more than my boys do...as I read your post I got to thinking...I
think I need to be extra careful that I'm accepting of their desire
to not leave the house a whole lot. I certainly don't want to make
them feel bad about it.

My husband has the exact same personality. He's most happy at home,
and doesn't even like going shopping. But it's easy to accept him--
if I want to go somewhere and he doesn't, I just go without him.
It's not so easy with little boys who cry, "But I don't want you to
leave me" at the mention of me going somewhere.

For our family too, I think that the "not going anywhere" has maybe
been part of the deschooling process. I used to do school at home
with Alisha, and although we didn't do lots of textbook/workbook
stuff, I controlled what we did VERY much. Lots of hands-on, trip
type stuff that she *had* to do because of unit studies I had
designed. And even though Matt was little, he got drug to a lot of
that stuff. The feeling of "we have to go on another educational
trip" was in the air all too often in those days. :( So now, freedom
to my daughter means being free to stay home. Classes just don't
seem appealing to her--and she's been free for several years now.

> > And keep repeating the quote about education not being "filling a
> pail".

Yeah, but I'd say it's not the lighting of a fire either. The fire's
already lit. We just need to make sure nothing does anything to put
the fire out.

Sheila

Robyn Coburn

<<<My son is quite attached to Mom & Dad. He has no interest in
participating in any type of class, sport team, instruction, etc, unless I
am right by his side. We have tried a couple trial classes (in things that
he seems to truly enjoy such as tae kwon do and gymanstics), and he
typically lays on the floor and cries. He will not "line up" or do what the
other kids are doing or follow the instructor.>>>

Maybe it's just too soon for him to feel safe without you nearby. You are
doing the right thing by honoring his needs and fears.

Jayn started a loving, gentle modern dance class when she was 3. For the
first year I pretty much had to sit in view of her at the top of the stairs.
I tried to honor the teacher's idea that there be no audience - to encourage
free expression - by reading a book with my back to the class, but I was
still there for Jayn to run over and get a kissy at will. This year we have
progressed to me being downstairs in the living room, again contrary to the
teacher's preference for her home not to be a waiting room - but she sees
that Jayn needs to know I am accessible to her so that she will dance
happily. This teacher really is a treasure, and the kids just adore her.
Finding the right teacher is one part of the equation.

Another thing that Jayn was very sensitive to was large, echo filled indoor
spaces with crowds of noisy people, especially if she was "required" to be
sitting (egs: cinemas, theaters, halls, churches) - she would become very
scared and clingy, and would cry to leave. She seems to have gotten over
that to a great degree - I believe in part because I never pushed her to
stay in any of these types of places when she was nervous. I always left
immediately with her. Perhaps your son has some of the same reactions to the
sound of crowds.

<<<<My family tells me it is "unhealthy" for him to be with me (or Dad) all
the time and he needs to be able to interact with others and follow
instruction from others. I do not agree with this, but on some level it
does eat away at me deep inside. I was in every class imaginable as a child
and I think it is hard for me to understand how he could not want to
participate in these types of things. But I have realized that I need to
accept his personality and find ways to work WITH it, not against it.>>>>

Oh yes. The little drips of poison that our other family members sometimes
manage to insert into our thinking at times. Flush them out if you can. Here
you are surrounded metaphorically by people who totally reject that notion
of it being "unhealthy" to meet your little child's needs for parental
contact.

"Following Instructions" is a schoolthink criterion of success. In a few
years your boy will be playing PS2 games with the best of them, and
following all the instructions he needs to in order to advance up the
levels, or solve the puzzle or whatever game type excites him. Consider that
he is learning to trust his own judgment and to be discerning in his choice
of leaders and mentors - an ability that may save his life one day.

My mother does the "poison zinger" sometimes - she doesn't see it as a
negative action. She believes she is trying to help, but lives by a whole
different paradigm of parenting and love relationships.

What works with my mother is to find some article, usually on the internet,
written by a source that she respects, and send it to her. My mother
respects authority, especially medical doctors. Therefore for her I will
send information from the American Academy of Pediatrics website, rather
than say, Mothering Magazine. Many times the information is essentially the
same. Perhaps you can find a source that your relatives will respect for
some Attachment Parenting information, and that will quiet them down on this
pushing independence issue.

Further to your own spiritual growth as a parent, you might re-examine
whether you truly wanted to be in all the classes you were in as a child,
and what function they served for you. Maybe you were looking for approval
or validation. In my case, being somewhere other than with my mother was my
goal in many of the extra classes and after-school clubs I did when young.
Did you really have a choice about the extra classes? Maybe you really did
want to be there and thrived on them - were you not quite 6 years old at
that time, or are you recalling your feelings at a later age? Are you having
regrets that your son seems temperamentally very different from you or from
your expectations? Sometimes having an expectation is the surest way to a
disappointment. I'm NOT looking for a report here, unless you have some
epiphany you want to share, just suggesting some ideas to help you find more
empathy for your son's emotional reactions to the places you have tried.

<<<<So my question is - does anyone have any advice on how to work with this

personality style? I can see clearly what he is interested in, but quite
often I just don't know how to further his learning without looking for
"outside" help (class, etc.) For example, he is extremely interested in
medieval living, especially the fighting. (And I have read with great
interest the recent thread on SCA.) I suggested a fencing class or getting
involved in a Ren Faire. He tells me very bluntly that he will only do it
if I do it with him. OK, but it's not that easy to find this type of
scenario. Most will expect the children to participate with other children
- not adults. Am I just looking in the wrong places?>>>>

I have done fencing as part of an acting class, and I really enjoyed it -
but I was an adult. The teacher was formerly the coach of the Australian
Olympic fencing team. It was very physically demanding, very intense and
there are mesh masks and padding to be worn that *could* be intimidating or
claustrophobic for a little fellow. For beginners it can be very formalized.
I think first watch some classes from a safe distance, to discover if he
wants to pursue this.

My first thoughts when I read he is interested in medieval living are:
movies, the History Channel, computer games, the internet, local museums and
picture books. So immediately assuming a class or group activity is the
FIRST option does suggest to me that yes you are looking in the wrong places
- and making more work for yourself. With Jayn, I usually start slowly when
she starts expressing some interest. Rather than "getting involved" with a
Ren. Faire, what about just attending one in your area. I would suggest to
you that you release this emphasis on "working" with his personality (you
use that word more than once), and just enjoy yourselves as much as possible
doing anything you both find fun.

<<<<I know that he will not be "hanging on my leg" when he is 16 years old.
I cherish the fact that he wants to be with me now. But the part of me that
is "schooled" is concerned that he may be missing his chance for many
things. For example, the typical schooled child will begin on a T-ball or
little league team (my son also loves baseball, when played by *his* rules
with Mom & Dad) at, what, age 5 or 6? So if my son is not comfortable
participating on a team until he's 10 - how will we find a "place" for him
since he has not started on the same level?>>>>

Your son may never want to participate in a team sport. It is not a
mandatory rite of passage. Really. If he is enjoying the physical games with
you and dh, then that is great. He will come to want other friends too. He
really will.

There are "play for fun" groups for different sports, and homeschool teams
all over the place with different levels of commitment asked that start at
all kinds of ages. Some, but not all, are serious competitive teams moving
in the same leagues as school teams. Someone at a local University in my
area has a semi-organized soccer playing session once a week for little
kids, with the emphasis on enjoyment well attended by members of my
homeschool group. Jayn sometimes expresses an interest, but not enough to
overcome the unfortunate scheduling of the event at 10AM.

As for missing his chance, it is true that there are some things that *seem*
to require a very young start to reach the absolute pinnacle of it. Olympic
gymnastics for girls and being a prima ballerina come to mind at once. There
seems, and maybe I'm wrong, to be a lot more age leeway for boys in the same
sports - possibly because many of the sports for boys place more emphasis on
strength and less on suppleness, and boys just keep getting bigger and
stronger as they age and do their sport.

However watching the Olympics, and some of the historical sports shows
around them, I notice there are plenty of stories of successful athletes who
"beat the odds" starting in their sport in their early teens, or after some
injury or illness pushed them out of some other sport. And this is at the
top levels of these sports, a long way from neighborhood leagues or the
office team getting together to noodle around with a basketball for fun on
the weekend.

I would guess that enthusiasm and willingness to practice probably go a long
way with most coaches. Other people will have more experience than I do. I
wonder how many of these little schooled boys would rather be playing a
loving, happy game using their own rules with Mom and Dad, instead of the
high pressure of Little League.

Robyn L. Coburn


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