Re:....restrictions..Buzz Words
Tosca
Hello Robyn,
types of people and thus far the biggest clashes we have run into on
the subject of food* have been with Grandma and Grampa (my parents)
who are actually trying to understand and support which makes things
easier.
would bring to entertain her during DR. visits and other type
activities I'd think she might get bored in) couldn't hold a candle
to what others had.
Usually I will bring/send a snack all the children can share as a
contribution to the other household wether
they eat it during the time shared or consume other things and have
whatever we've given them some other time.
LOL well dipping back into 'modern parenting jargon' I would counter
"you suggest that like it's a bad thing" also understanding that who
would say that would I think also be saying "Kids test boundaries to
show us they need us to enforce rules to show we care, and are
concerned about them".
But I don't think that's what my daughter is doing, any more than I
believe that's why all kids, who are doing it, do it. (pauses to ask
"was that a mental tongue twister ;> )
As a child I hated the phrase "kids NEED rules/structure/discipline" I
always knew I wouldn't go crazy without grown ups breathing down my
neck and wasn't totally the thriving child that I was because they
were. But then I couldn't then and still cannot now tell how much of
who I was and am is totally instinctive and how much I simply grasped
firmly and early from the structure I was born and raised into.
they seem to be about on the surface? Were you thinking this when you
posted your original message or are you only asking me if I see the
connection in what I posted?
itself I was only trying to illustrate what currently appears to be
true: 3 different families all homeschooling without any other firm
similarities that I can think to highlight.
Currently one set of kids seems to adhere to a certain set out food
guidelines where ever they go. Lenelle and I are still on a path to
finding food comfort zones and the other childrens mother was telling
me "my kids eat one way at home but at a recent party they jumped at
the chance to eat something I don't give them (don't want them to
have) tho they don't protest not getting it around the house."
Not that I am taking offence but are you in fact from your
'enlightened' space suggesting or insisting that those who are not at
the place you see yourself or whom may never be are some how not
right? Failing or fooling themselves and or their children. As if
there is really only one right way to rear, learn, grow, teach, be
taught.
I do feel as a homeschooling parent that I and other homeschooling
families I encounter are more connected to and therefore enlightened
about our own individual children and in that way a bit more about all
children. With such new perspectives it does seem like if we could
impart then some of our wisdom to "ordinary parents" and have it take
hold it could transform in a positive way many of the things we look
out and don't like to see in our world. But not that this is a simple
process or an over night evolution. And not that more truth or wisdom
to parents about themselves or their children would lead them to
exactly where we have come to or where we are going.
I cannot blindly agree with this statement. I like it in theory but it
has yet to totally pan out in my life.
Example: From her father my daughter inherited bed wetting which has
lasted from the time she was out of diapers until this summer.
He was not around when she was 4 so I didn't know it was from him at
the time but subsequently he has told me he wet the bed till about
this age. Meanwhile I did everything it seemed there was to be tried
to curtail bed wetting without trying to make our life crazy or
resorting to drugs. After I had tried different things to no avail we
accepted it and life went on.
But as she got older and from time to time the whole problem would
upset her. Being powerless to control her bladder through the night
while she slept we discovered that going potty b4 bed led to a dry
night 95% of the time even if she had a beverage right before she fell
asleep. Go figure......
So it was clear "if you do not want to wake up wet, wet before bed"
but would she do that? NO
Like cutting off ones nose to spite ones face she resented her body
not doing what she wanted so she refused to accomidate it the way it
needed only to then pout whine and otherwise be upset morning after
morning waking up in a cold puddle.
Gritting my teeth every a.m. did no good so when I didn't want to hear
her whining the next day I would insist she go potty the night before.
Not to mention my desire at times to save on laundry.
Insightfully seeking
Tosca
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
... I want to suggest the idea that in the wider parenting world the
words "implementing limits", or more usually "setting limits", is a
buzz word phrase - politically correct jargon of supposedly aware
parenting, which can often be translated into "controlling the
children's behavior". ...."Limits" can mean "what parents tolerate in
their comfort zone". ....Lists that discuss unschooling often include
so much that is about changing your parenting on a deep thought level,
so using these part-time buzz words may spark unexpected semantics
based responses. "With our thoughts we make the world". With (only)
our words, we make our thoughts known online. .. Another modern
parenting idea is "Give your children choices". ... it just looks like
manipulation - hmmm, actually it *is* manipulation .... a huge
improvement over no choices at all and fear based obedience, but not
as enlightened as unschooling can be. Gosh, it sounds smug to use
"enlightened" but it still seems the best word... Unschoolers are
usually on a path towards real choices that their children "make"
rather than being "given" or "permitted". Sometimes this means
gritting your teeth and biting your tongue. Occasionally these real
choices are likely to have crummy (but presumably not life or limb
threatening) results, especially when the children are young. For most
"ordinary parents" the teeth gritting over bad choices comes when the
youngster is grown up or in their late teens and is suddenly "given"
(translation: mandatory acceptance) responsibilities and adult
behavior expectations. We get to practice gritting for way longer.
;)... A principles-based lifestyle, instead of a hierarchy...
It becomes about letting go of the need to ensure that they are
"learning from their mistakes" ...... the suspicion that the parents
are trying to manage and control (or just bullshitting).
> I am always nearby on her play-dates.Thankfully I too have not 'had' to leave Lenelle with daycare or other
types of people and thus far the biggest clashes we have run into on
the subject of food* have been with Grandma and Grampa (my parents)
who are actually trying to understand and support which makes things
easier.
> I would not be leaving her with someone .....unwilling to let hereat her food, or leave it either (and I
>would always have the food bag to leave with her)I can remeber that a packed lunch or picnic (just like the toy bags I
would bring to entertain her during DR. visits and other type
activities I'd think she might get bored in) couldn't hold a candle
to what others had.
Usually I will bring/send a snack all the children can share as a
contribution to the other household wether
they eat it during the time shared or consume other things and have
whatever we've given them some other time.
>It sounds like your daughter is "testing those boundaries" to usesome jargon from modern parenting.
LOL well dipping back into 'modern parenting jargon' I would counter
"you suggest that like it's a bad thing" also understanding that who
would say that would I think also be saying "Kids test boundaries to
show us they need us to enforce rules to show we care, and are
concerned about them".
But I don't think that's what my daughter is doing, any more than I
believe that's why all kids, who are doing it, do it. (pauses to ask
"was that a mental tongue twister ;> )
As a child I hated the phrase "kids NEED rules/structure/discipline" I
always knew I wouldn't go crazy without grown ups breathing down my
neck and wasn't totally the thriving child that I was because they
were. But then I couldn't then and still cannot now tell how much of
who I was and am is totally instinctive and how much I simply grasped
firmly and early from the structure I was born and raised into.
>Are we still talking about food*?Is this about food? Was it ever? Are things ever really about what
they seem to be about on the surface? Were you thinking this when you
posted your original message or are you only asking me if I see the
connection in what I posted?
>"Would never" is a big phrase.Sorry for makining a generalization which then appears to nullify
itself I was only trying to illustrate what currently appears to be
true: 3 different families all homeschooling without any other firm
similarities that I can think to highlight.
Currently one set of kids seems to adhere to a certain set out food
guidelines where ever they go. Lenelle and I are still on a path to
finding food comfort zones and the other childrens mother was telling
me "my kids eat one way at home but at a recent party they jumped at
the chance to eat something I don't give them (don't want them to
have) tho they don't protest not getting it around the house."
>Does "qualms" mean these are children who are afraid of theirThe quote is "without qualms".
>parents, or punishment?
Not that I am taking offence but are you in fact from your
'enlightened' space suggesting or insisting that those who are not at
the place you see yourself or whom may never be are some how not
right? Failing or fooling themselves and or their children. As if
there is really only one right way to rear, learn, grow, teach, be
taught.
I do feel as a homeschooling parent that I and other homeschooling
families I encounter are more connected to and therefore enlightened
about our own individual children and in that way a bit more about all
children. With such new perspectives it does seem like if we could
impart then some of our wisdom to "ordinary parents" and have it take
hold it could transform in a positive way many of the things we look
out and don't like to see in our world. But not that this is a simple
process or an over night evolution. And not that more truth or wisdom
to parents about themselves or their children would lead them to
exactly where we have come to or where we are going.
> When consequences are seamlessly obvious, they need not bementioned.
I cannot blindly agree with this statement. I like it in theory but it
has yet to totally pan out in my life.
Example: From her father my daughter inherited bed wetting which has
lasted from the time she was out of diapers until this summer.
He was not around when she was 4 so I didn't know it was from him at
the time but subsequently he has told me he wet the bed till about
this age. Meanwhile I did everything it seemed there was to be tried
to curtail bed wetting without trying to make our life crazy or
resorting to drugs. After I had tried different things to no avail we
accepted it and life went on.
But as she got older and from time to time the whole problem would
upset her. Being powerless to control her bladder through the night
while she slept we discovered that going potty b4 bed led to a dry
night 95% of the time even if she had a beverage right before she fell
asleep. Go figure......
So it was clear "if you do not want to wake up wet, wet before bed"
but would she do that? NO
Like cutting off ones nose to spite ones face she resented her body
not doing what she wanted so she refused to accomidate it the way it
needed only to then pout whine and otherwise be upset morning after
morning waking up in a cold puddle.
Gritting my teeth every a.m. did no good so when I didn't want to hear
her whining the next day I would insist she go potty the night before.
Not to mention my desire at times to save on laundry.
Insightfully seeking
Tosca
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
... I want to suggest the idea that in the wider parenting world the
words "implementing limits", or more usually "setting limits", is a
buzz word phrase - politically correct jargon of supposedly aware
parenting, which can often be translated into "controlling the
children's behavior". ...."Limits" can mean "what parents tolerate in
their comfort zone". ....Lists that discuss unschooling often include
so much that is about changing your parenting on a deep thought level,
so using these part-time buzz words may spark unexpected semantics
based responses. "With our thoughts we make the world". With (only)
our words, we make our thoughts known online. .. Another modern
parenting idea is "Give your children choices". ... it just looks like
manipulation - hmmm, actually it *is* manipulation .... a huge
improvement over no choices at all and fear based obedience, but not
as enlightened as unschooling can be. Gosh, it sounds smug to use
"enlightened" but it still seems the best word... Unschoolers are
usually on a path towards real choices that their children "make"
rather than being "given" or "permitted". Sometimes this means
gritting your teeth and biting your tongue. Occasionally these real
choices are likely to have crummy (but presumably not life or limb
threatening) results, especially when the children are young. For most
"ordinary parents" the teeth gritting over bad choices comes when the
youngster is grown up or in their late teens and is suddenly "given"
(translation: mandatory acceptance) responsibilities and adult
behavior expectations. We get to practice gritting for way longer.
;)... A principles-based lifestyle, instead of a hierarchy...
It becomes about letting go of the need to ensure that they are
"learning from their mistakes" ...... the suspicion that the parents
are trying to manage and control (or just bullshitting).
Danielle Conger
Tosca wrote:
<>So it was clear "if you do not want to wake up wet, wet before bed"
but would she do that? NO
Like cutting off ones nose to spite ones face she resented her body
not doing what she wanted so she refused to accomidate it the way it
needed only to then pout whine and otherwise be upset morning after
morning waking up in a cold puddle.
Gritting my teeth every a.m. did no good so when I didn't want to hear
her whining the next day I would insist she go potty the night before.
Not to mention my desire at times to save on laundry.
Insightfully seeking
=========
There are a couple of things that I have found helpful. First, there are
waterproof crib pads--the full crib size are best--that are very helpful
either on top of the sheet if the child will tolerate them or under the
sheet to at least protect mattress pad and mattress. That way, you're
only washing the crib pad and maybe the sheet. My girls were fine having
them on top of the sheet, and I could just shift a new one in if one had
an accident. My guy balks at having it on the top--doesn't like the way
it feels. So, with him, I end up washing the sheet and the pad, but I've
always got a load of laundry I can throw in with it. *g* No shortage of
that here!
Also, I credit my sister-in-law with this one, you can put a sleeping
child on the potty and get them to empty their bladder one more time
before you go to sleep. It's amazing, but it actually works. I, on the
other hand, told her that you can give a sleeping child medicine with a
dropper. So, together, she and I make a pretty good team. :)
Basically, I just figure that my job is to facilitate and clean up
messes without blinking an eye. Eventually they will stay dry, use the
potty and make it through the night. I figure, a parent can either fight
it and be resentful, or they can clean up and offer opportunities
without comment. I've found the second approach far easier.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
Tosca wrote:
<>So it was clear "if you do not want to wake up wet, wet before bed"
but would she do that? NO
Like cutting off ones nose to spite ones face she resented her body
not doing what she wanted so she refused to accomidate it the way it
needed only to then pout whine and otherwise be upset morning after
morning waking up in a cold puddle.
Gritting my teeth every a.m. did no good so when I didn't want to hear
her whining the next day I would insist she go potty the night before.
Not to mention my desire at times to save on laundry.
Insightfully seeking
=========
There are a couple of things that I have found helpful. First, there are
waterproof crib pads--the full crib size are best--that are very helpful
either on top of the sheet if the child will tolerate them or under the
sheet to at least protect mattress pad and mattress. That way, you're
only washing the crib pad and maybe the sheet. My girls were fine having
them on top of the sheet, and I could just shift a new one in if one had
an accident. My guy balks at having it on the top--doesn't like the way
it feels. So, with him, I end up washing the sheet and the pad, but I've
always got a load of laundry I can throw in with it. *g* No shortage of
that here!
Also, I credit my sister-in-law with this one, you can put a sleeping
child on the potty and get them to empty their bladder one more time
before you go to sleep. It's amazing, but it actually works. I, on the
other hand, told her that you can give a sleeping child medicine with a
dropper. So, together, she and I make a pretty good team. :)
Basically, I just figure that my job is to facilitate and clean up
messes without blinking an eye. Eventually they will stay dry, use the
potty and make it through the night. I figure, a parent can either fight
it and be resentful, or they can clean up and offer opportunities
without comment. I've found the second approach far easier.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
Tosca wrote:
>Hello Robyn,
>
>
>
>>I am always nearby on her play-dates.
>>
>>
>Thankfully I too have not 'had' to leave Lenelle with daycare or other
>types of people and thus far the biggest clashes we have run into on
>the subject of food* have been with Grandma and Grampa (my parents)
>who are actually trying to understand and support which makes things
>easier.
>
>
>
>>I would not be leaving her with someone .....unwilling to let her
>>
>>
>eat her food, or leave it either (and I
>
>
>>would always have the food bag to leave with her)
>>
>>
>
>I can remeber that a packed lunch or picnic (just like the toy bags I
>would bring to entertain her during DR. visits and other type
>activities I'd think she might get bored in) couldn't hold a candle
>to what others had.
>Usually I will bring/send a snack all the children can share as a
>contribution to the other household wether
>they eat it during the time shared or consume other things and have
>whatever we've given them some other time.
>
>
>
>>It sounds like your daughter is "testing those boundaries" to use
>>
>>
>some jargon from modern parenting.
>
>LOL well dipping back into 'modern parenting jargon' I would counter
>"you suggest that like it's a bad thing" also understanding that who
>would say that would I think also be saying "Kids test boundaries to
>show us they need us to enforce rules to show we care, and are
>concerned about them".
>But I don't think that's what my daughter is doing, any more than I
>believe that's why all kids, who are doing it, do it. (pauses to ask
>"was that a mental tongue twister ;> )
>
>As a child I hated the phrase "kids NEED rules/structure/discipline" I
>always knew I wouldn't go crazy without grown ups breathing down my
>neck and wasn't totally the thriving child that I was because they
>were. But then I couldn't then and still cannot now tell how much of
>who I was and am is totally instinctive and how much I simply grasped
>firmly and early from the structure I was born and raised into.
>
>
>
>>Are we still talking about food*?
>>
>>
>
>Is this about food? Was it ever? Are things ever really about what
>they seem to be about on the surface? Were you thinking this when you
>posted your original message or are you only asking me if I see the
>connection in what I posted?
>
>
>
>>"Would never" is a big phrase.
>>
>>
>
>Sorry for makining a generalization which then appears to nullify
>itself I was only trying to illustrate what currently appears to be
>true: 3 different families all homeschooling without any other firm
>similarities that I can think to highlight.
>Currently one set of kids seems to adhere to a certain set out food
>guidelines where ever they go. Lenelle and I are still on a path to
>finding food comfort zones and the other childrens mother was telling
>me "my kids eat one way at home but at a recent party they jumped at
>the chance to eat something I don't give them (don't want them to
>have) tho they don't protest not getting it around the house."
>
>
>
>>Does "qualms" mean these are children who are afraid of their
>>parents, or punishment?
>>
>>
>The quote is "without qualms".
>
>Not that I am taking offence but are you in fact from your
>'enlightened' space suggesting or insisting that those who are not at
>the place you see yourself or whom may never be are some how not
>right? Failing or fooling themselves and or their children. As if
>there is really only one right way to rear, learn, grow, teach, be
>taught.
>
>I do feel as a homeschooling parent that I and other homeschooling
>families I encounter are more connected to and therefore enlightened
>about our own individual children and in that way a bit more about all
>children. With such new perspectives it does seem like if we could
>impart then some of our wisdom to "ordinary parents" and have it take
>hold it could transform in a positive way many of the things we look
>out and don't like to see in our world. But not that this is a simple
>process or an over night evolution. And not that more truth or wisdom
>to parents about themselves or their children would lead them to
>exactly where we have come to or where we are going.
>
>
>
>>When consequences are seamlessly obvious, they need not be
>>
>>
>mentioned.
>I cannot blindly agree with this statement. I like it in theory but it
>has yet to totally pan out in my life.
>
>Example: From her father my daughter inherited bed wetting which has
>lasted from the time she was out of diapers until this summer.
>
>He was not around when she was 4 so I didn't know it was from him at
>the time but subsequently he has told me he wet the bed till about
>this age. Meanwhile I did everything it seemed there was to be tried
>to curtail bed wetting without trying to make our life crazy or
>resorting to drugs. After I had tried different things to no avail we
>accepted it and life went on.
>
>But as she got older and from time to time the whole problem would
>upset her. Being powerless to control her bladder through the night
>while she slept we discovered that going potty b4 bed led to a dry
>night 95% of the time even if she had a beverage right before she fell
>asleep. Go figure......
>
>
>
>Tosca
>--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
>... I want to suggest the idea that in the wider parenting world the
>words "implementing limits", or more usually "setting limits", is a
>buzz word phrase - politically correct jargon of supposedly aware
>parenting, which can often be translated into "controlling the
>children's behavior". ...."Limits" can mean "what parents tolerate in
>their comfort zone". ....Lists that discuss unschooling often include
>so much that is about changing your parenting on a deep thought level,
>so using these part-time buzz words may spark unexpected semantics
>based responses. "With our thoughts we make the world". With (only)
>our words, we make our thoughts known online. .. Another modern
>parenting idea is "Give your children choices". ... it just looks like
>manipulation - hmmm, actually it *is* manipulation .... a huge
>improvement over no choices at all and fear based obedience, but not
>as enlightened as unschooling can be. Gosh, it sounds smug to use
>"enlightened" but it still seems the best word... Unschoolers are
>usually on a path towards real choices that their children "make"
>rather than being "given" or "permitted". Sometimes this means
>gritting your teeth and biting your tongue. Occasionally these real
>choices are likely to have crummy (but presumably not life or limb
>threatening) results, especially when the children are young. For most
>"ordinary parents" the teeth gritting over bad choices comes when the
>youngster is grown up or in their late teens and is suddenly "given"
>(translation: mandatory acceptance) responsibilities and adult
>behavior expectations. We get to practice gritting for way longer.
>;)... A principles-based lifestyle, instead of a hierarchy...
>It becomes about letting go of the need to ensure that they are
>"learning from their mistakes" ...... the suspicion that the parents
>are trying to manage and control (or just bullshitting).
>
>
>
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
debbie gubernick
Along the lines of the waterproof pad, something that worked for us was a waterproof sheet on top of the mattress, then the regular sheet, then a thick cotton bath towel folded in half. I don't remember if we put the towel under the sheet or on top of it, but the towel acted as a wick so that no one woke up in a puddle; plus, it was comfy and soft.
debbie
Danielle Conger <danielle.conger@...> wrote:
Tosca wrote:
be upset morning after
morning waking up in a cold puddle.
=========
There are a couple of things that I have found helpful. First, there are
waterproof crib pads--the full crib size are best--that are very helpful
either on top of the sheet if the child will tolerate them or under the
sheet to at least protect mattress pad and mattress. That way, you're
only washing the crib pad and maybe the sheet. My girls were fine having
them on top of the sheet, and I could just shift a new one in if one had
an accident. My guy balks at having it on the top--doesn't like the way
it feels. So, with him, I end up washing the sheet and the pad, but I've
always got a load of laundry I can throw in with it. *g* No shortage of
that here!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debbie
Danielle Conger <danielle.conger@...> wrote:
Tosca wrote:
be upset morning after
morning waking up in a cold puddle.
=========
There are a couple of things that I have found helpful. First, there are
waterproof crib pads--the full crib size are best--that are very helpful
either on top of the sheet if the child will tolerate them or under the
sheet to at least protect mattress pad and mattress. That way, you're
only washing the crib pad and maybe the sheet. My girls were fine having
them on top of the sheet, and I could just shift a new one in if one had
an accident. My guy balks at having it on the top--doesn't like the way
it feels. So, with him, I end up washing the sheet and the pad, but I've
always got a load of laundry I can throw in with it. *g* No shortage of
that here!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<As a child I hated the phrase "kids NEED rules/structure/discipline" I
always knew I wouldn't go crazy without grown ups breathing down my
neck and wasn't totally the thriving child that I was because they
were. But then I couldn't then and still cannot now tell how much of
who I was and am is totally instinctive and how much I simply grasped
firmly and early from the structure I was born and raised into.>>>>
I'm confused. Are you recommending restrictions and rules?
<<<<Is this about food? Was it ever? Are things ever really about what
they seem to be about on the surface? Were you thinking this when you
posted your original message or are you only asking me if I see the
connection in what I posted?>>>>
<<<<>Does "qualms" mean these are children who are afraid of their
The full paragraph of this quote is:
<<<There is a mom in my local group however whose kids tho 'restricted'
as many might think of them would never stray from what they know by
home example to be appropriate without qualms.>>>
I read this to mean basically, "I know some kids who wouldn't go against
Mom's rules without feeling bad." In such a case the bad feelings could
include fear of punishment or fear of parent's disappointment in them,
amongst other things.
I didn't take it to mean, "I know some kids who would never think of doing
something Mom says is wrong."
Which (or what else) did you mean?
Unschoolers seek to set up a life of communication and joy with their
children so that the "qualms" don't have to exist. If there are no
"Restrictions" set up entirely for parents' reasons, then there is not
concept of "straying".
<<<Not that I am taking offence but are you in fact from your
'enlightened' space suggesting or insisting that those who are not at
the place you see yourself or whom may never be are some how not
right? Failing or fooling themselves and or their children. As if
there is really only one right way to rear, learn, grow, teach, be
taught.>>>>
Unschoolers try not to think in terms of teaching or being taught generally.
There are as many ways of learning as there are children, but the general
principle that learning is continual, automatic and unstoppable applies all
over. If interest comes first, learning is joyful - as compared to learning
how to do the minimum to pass, or learning how to keep out of trouble, or
learning that rules are more important to some Moms than happiness. (I'm NOT
directing this latter idea *personal* way - just noting that it can happen.)
<<<I do feel as a homeschooling parent that I and other homeschooling
families I encounter are more connected to and therefore enlightened
about our own individual children and in that way a bit more about all
children. With such new perspectives it does seem like if we could
impart then some of our wisdom to "ordinary parents" and have it take
hold it could transform in a positive way many of the things we look
out and don't like to see in our world. But not that this is a simple
process or an over night evolution. And not that more truth or wisdom
to parents about themselves or their children would lead them to
exactly where we have come to or where we are going.>>>>
Are you Unschooling? I ask because you are calling yourself a "home"-
schooler. On this list the words are not interchangeable.
I'm just trying to better understand Jayn's needs and desires and fulfill
them on a daily basis, without the baggage from my own traditionally
parented childhood and school education, intruding. I don't know that we
speak for all children, although many of us on this list are passionately
interested in child development theories, if only to compare the general
experience with ours.
The collective wisdom on these lists is to help people get to Unschooling
better, because those of us who are living it have such joyous lives with
our children - even when there are challenges. However unless a parent is
actively seeking this wisdom, any notion of how their children's lives could
be improved tends to elude them, and they continue to argue, including for
restrictions to varying degrees.
The first challenge to parents when they start learning about Unschooling is
to change their thinking. One important facet of that is to change our
internal dialogue and language use.
<<<<> When consequences are seamlessly obvious, they need not be
mentioned.
I cannot blindly agree with this statement. I like it in theory but it
has yet to totally pan out in my life. >>>>>
I hope no-one agrees to any statements "blindly", no matter who makes them.
Another way to state this idea is: Children will learn all they need to from
their mistakes, without parents needing *make sure* they learn something, or
even point out that the mistake happened. Children don't need an accident
(like something fell and broke) pointed out to them, if the broken pieces
are on the floor in front of them.
Like if there has been a spill, I give Jayn a chance to pick the stuff up.
Often she asks me to do it. I don't say anything along the lines of, "You
spilled that because you were doing such-and-such...". The only time I would
say this type of line would be if Jayn asked me what happened, and it would
be information not teaching. That has not occurred yet, to my recollection.
I am trying very hard to stop making any comment at all, including a cheery,
"Oops" although sometimes Jayn seems to want reassurance - such as that she
can get another. We laugh a lot at spills and topples. Better than grumping
about them. I'd be grumping all day long some days, otherwise. I choose not
to.
<<<<Example: From her father my daughter inherited bed wetting which has
lasted from the time she was out of diapers until this summer.
He was not around when she was 4 so I didn't know it was from him at
the time but subsequently he has told me he wet the bed till about
this age. Meanwhile I did everything it seemed there was to be tried
to curtail bed wetting without trying to make our life crazy or
resorting to drugs. After I had tried different things to no avail we
accepted it and life went on.>>>>
I wouldn't have thought your daughter's bed wetting was in the same area of
discussion as a mistake made, especially since it seems out of her control
to alter how fast her body grows.
I never made any kind of big deal about Jayn (now 4.5) sometimes wetting the
bed - and it is a family bed - in the time between being fully out of
diapers, and her little bladder being grown big enough to last all night -
as has occurred until close to her 4th birthday. I'm pretty convinced that
bedwetting at 4 is pretty average, to judge by stories from other parents in
my local group and here. Acting like it is a big unusual "inherited"
phenomenon may give it more power in your mind and hers.
Hopefully hearing that you eventually accepted it will help other parents do
so at once, without needing to put themselves and their kids through the
attempts at curtailing it that made you feel your life was crazy. Just jump
straight to the relaxed part. Many others have already made practical
suggestions to help with this.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 8/16/2004
always knew I wouldn't go crazy without grown ups breathing down my
neck and wasn't totally the thriving child that I was because they
were. But then I couldn't then and still cannot now tell how much of
who I was and am is totally instinctive and how much I simply grasped
firmly and early from the structure I was born and raised into.>>>>
I'm confused. Are you recommending restrictions and rules?
<<<<Is this about food? Was it ever? Are things ever really about what
they seem to be about on the surface? Were you thinking this when you
posted your original message or are you only asking me if I see the
connection in what I posted?>>>>
<<<<>Does "qualms" mean these are children who are afraid of their
>parents, or punishment?The quote is "without qualms".>>>>>
The full paragraph of this quote is:
<<<There is a mom in my local group however whose kids tho 'restricted'
as many might think of them would never stray from what they know by
home example to be appropriate without qualms.>>>
I read this to mean basically, "I know some kids who wouldn't go against
Mom's rules without feeling bad." In such a case the bad feelings could
include fear of punishment or fear of parent's disappointment in them,
amongst other things.
I didn't take it to mean, "I know some kids who would never think of doing
something Mom says is wrong."
Which (or what else) did you mean?
Unschoolers seek to set up a life of communication and joy with their
children so that the "qualms" don't have to exist. If there are no
"Restrictions" set up entirely for parents' reasons, then there is not
concept of "straying".
<<<Not that I am taking offence but are you in fact from your
'enlightened' space suggesting or insisting that those who are not at
the place you see yourself or whom may never be are some how not
right? Failing or fooling themselves and or their children. As if
there is really only one right way to rear, learn, grow, teach, be
taught.>>>>
Unschoolers try not to think in terms of teaching or being taught generally.
There are as many ways of learning as there are children, but the general
principle that learning is continual, automatic and unstoppable applies all
over. If interest comes first, learning is joyful - as compared to learning
how to do the minimum to pass, or learning how to keep out of trouble, or
learning that rules are more important to some Moms than happiness. (I'm NOT
directing this latter idea *personal* way - just noting that it can happen.)
<<<I do feel as a homeschooling parent that I and other homeschooling
families I encounter are more connected to and therefore enlightened
about our own individual children and in that way a bit more about all
children. With such new perspectives it does seem like if we could
impart then some of our wisdom to "ordinary parents" and have it take
hold it could transform in a positive way many of the things we look
out and don't like to see in our world. But not that this is a simple
process or an over night evolution. And not that more truth or wisdom
to parents about themselves or their children would lead them to
exactly where we have come to or where we are going.>>>>
Are you Unschooling? I ask because you are calling yourself a "home"-
schooler. On this list the words are not interchangeable.
I'm just trying to better understand Jayn's needs and desires and fulfill
them on a daily basis, without the baggage from my own traditionally
parented childhood and school education, intruding. I don't know that we
speak for all children, although many of us on this list are passionately
interested in child development theories, if only to compare the general
experience with ours.
The collective wisdom on these lists is to help people get to Unschooling
better, because those of us who are living it have such joyous lives with
our children - even when there are challenges. However unless a parent is
actively seeking this wisdom, any notion of how their children's lives could
be improved tends to elude them, and they continue to argue, including for
restrictions to varying degrees.
The first challenge to parents when they start learning about Unschooling is
to change their thinking. One important facet of that is to change our
internal dialogue and language use.
<<<<> When consequences are seamlessly obvious, they need not be
mentioned.
I cannot blindly agree with this statement. I like it in theory but it
has yet to totally pan out in my life. >>>>>
I hope no-one agrees to any statements "blindly", no matter who makes them.
Another way to state this idea is: Children will learn all they need to from
their mistakes, without parents needing *make sure* they learn something, or
even point out that the mistake happened. Children don't need an accident
(like something fell and broke) pointed out to them, if the broken pieces
are on the floor in front of them.
Like if there has been a spill, I give Jayn a chance to pick the stuff up.
Often she asks me to do it. I don't say anything along the lines of, "You
spilled that because you were doing such-and-such...". The only time I would
say this type of line would be if Jayn asked me what happened, and it would
be information not teaching. That has not occurred yet, to my recollection.
I am trying very hard to stop making any comment at all, including a cheery,
"Oops" although sometimes Jayn seems to want reassurance - such as that she
can get another. We laugh a lot at spills and topples. Better than grumping
about them. I'd be grumping all day long some days, otherwise. I choose not
to.
<<<<Example: From her father my daughter inherited bed wetting which has
lasted from the time she was out of diapers until this summer.
He was not around when she was 4 so I didn't know it was from him at
the time but subsequently he has told me he wet the bed till about
this age. Meanwhile I did everything it seemed there was to be tried
to curtail bed wetting without trying to make our life crazy or
resorting to drugs. After I had tried different things to no avail we
accepted it and life went on.>>>>
I wouldn't have thought your daughter's bed wetting was in the same area of
discussion as a mistake made, especially since it seems out of her control
to alter how fast her body grows.
I never made any kind of big deal about Jayn (now 4.5) sometimes wetting the
bed - and it is a family bed - in the time between being fully out of
diapers, and her little bladder being grown big enough to last all night -
as has occurred until close to her 4th birthday. I'm pretty convinced that
bedwetting at 4 is pretty average, to judge by stories from other parents in
my local group and here. Acting like it is a big unusual "inherited"
phenomenon may give it more power in your mind and hers.
Hopefully hearing that you eventually accepted it will help other parents do
so at once, without needing to put themselves and their kids through the
attempts at curtailing it that made you feel your life was crazy. Just jump
straight to the relaxed part. Many others have already made practical
suggestions to help with this.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 8/16/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/22/04 1:09:47 AM, dezigna@... writes:
<< Unschoolers seek to set up a life of communication and joy with their
children so that the "qualms" don't have to exist. >>
I think of qualms as uncomfortable second thoughts based on one's super-ego
(voices in the head/conscience). I don't want kids to be qualms-free, if
they're headed toward doing something that will have to be cleaned up after
(socially, morally).
-=-However unless a parent is
actively seeking this wisdom, any notion of how their children's lives could
be improved tends to elude them, and they continue to argue, including for
restrictions to varying degrees.-=-
If we had a door, that could go on a plaque over it. <g>
But speaking of doors, I hope others are benefiting from this discussion,
because at least one of the people being quoted has left the list, I think.
-=The first challenge to parents when they start learning about Unschooling is
to change their thinking. One important facet of that is to change our
internal dialogue and language use. -=-
It's simple but not easy. <g>
-=-Example: From her father my daughter inherited bed wetting which has
lasted from the time she was out of diapers until this summer.-=-
I'm sorry I didn't comment on that one when it first came around.
If she's wetting the bed, she shouldn't be out of diapers at night.
If bedclothes and laundry are more important than comfortable sleep, it might
be easier for the parent to shift perspective and change priorities than to
cling to the idea of what the child should or should not be doing. Marty
peed the bed (gradually less) until he was nine or so, but wearing a small adult
diaper was cheaper than a load of laundry every day and more comfortable for
Marty.
Sleep is more important than keeping up with the Jones's development charts.
Or I think it should be, if the child is important.
-=-Acting like it is a big unusual "inherited"
phenomenon may give it more power in your mind and hers.-=-
I think it is a genetic thing. I never did, and Kirby and Holly never did.
Marty, who is like his dad in just about every perceivable way, did and his
dad had. But his dad had been shamed and yelled at and derided. Marty wasn't.
Peeing before bedtime didn't prevent Marty from peeing the bed later.
Getting him up in the middle of the night didn't prevent it either. It was just
preventing him and me from sleeping a long, quiet sleep.
I don't mind telling it, and Marty has said he doesn't mind me telling it,
becaue if one child is spared one shaming session, it's worth sharing it again.
Sandra
<< Unschoolers seek to set up a life of communication and joy with their
children so that the "qualms" don't have to exist. >>
I think of qualms as uncomfortable second thoughts based on one's super-ego
(voices in the head/conscience). I don't want kids to be qualms-free, if
they're headed toward doing something that will have to be cleaned up after
(socially, morally).
-=-However unless a parent is
actively seeking this wisdom, any notion of how their children's lives could
be improved tends to elude them, and they continue to argue, including for
restrictions to varying degrees.-=-
If we had a door, that could go on a plaque over it. <g>
But speaking of doors, I hope others are benefiting from this discussion,
because at least one of the people being quoted has left the list, I think.
-=The first challenge to parents when they start learning about Unschooling is
to change their thinking. One important facet of that is to change our
internal dialogue and language use. -=-
It's simple but not easy. <g>
-=-Example: From her father my daughter inherited bed wetting which has
lasted from the time she was out of diapers until this summer.-=-
I'm sorry I didn't comment on that one when it first came around.
If she's wetting the bed, she shouldn't be out of diapers at night.
If bedclothes and laundry are more important than comfortable sleep, it might
be easier for the parent to shift perspective and change priorities than to
cling to the idea of what the child should or should not be doing. Marty
peed the bed (gradually less) until he was nine or so, but wearing a small adult
diaper was cheaper than a load of laundry every day and more comfortable for
Marty.
Sleep is more important than keeping up with the Jones's development charts.
Or I think it should be, if the child is important.
-=-Acting like it is a big unusual "inherited"
phenomenon may give it more power in your mind and hers.-=-
I think it is a genetic thing. I never did, and Kirby and Holly never did.
Marty, who is like his dad in just about every perceivable way, did and his
dad had. But his dad had been shamed and yelled at and derided. Marty wasn't.
Peeing before bedtime didn't prevent Marty from peeing the bed later.
Getting him up in the middle of the night didn't prevent it either. It was just
preventing him and me from sleeping a long, quiet sleep.
I don't mind telling it, and Marty has said he doesn't mind me telling it,
becaue if one child is spared one shaming session, it's worth sharing it again.
Sandra
Tosca
Hiyas Sandra,
The best news is that (fingers crossed and all that especially after
reading that your son had troubles until age 9 sigh) this summer has
been DRY!!! lol
I too hope people are learning from this list and the discussion and
not leaving over what they are reading rather than hitting Next and
moving on from things they do not agree with or want to be bothered
with but then again sometimes when people really get talking a person
can realize what's really important to them and how to move totally
away if the conversations aren't a part of that.
I didn't go into a lot of detail about my daughters bed wetting but
here are some of the reasons I didn't suggest we go back to diapers:
the first 6 months after she was potty trained she slept dry through
the night. In which time we gave away most of what we had used for
diapers (cloth stuff) so they weren't even around plus when those
first few wet nights occured I just thought they would be passing
glitches.
2 years later when we discovered (and I think when also her body had
changed and grown a bit more in the bladder department) that night
time wetting could all but be avoided it seemed only natural that we
could then shift our behavior to do that.
So it was like WOW we had a dry night which followed potting before
bed lets try that again, and we did. Till we knew it really worked.
I wasn't worried about when she would stop or the laundry the whole
thing only became an issue when she realized she could get around wet
a.m.s but she refused to & she wanted to be upset about it too.
She always slept through the night so it was never that her sleep was
interupted and in the a.m. she could get out of her wet things and
into one of my T shirts to bum around the house or head straight to
the tub on her own. And for months I continued to do her bed (which
has a plastic mattress so just strip it, wipe it clean, let it dry
and re make it).
My X said the same thing his mother shamed him over the issue when he
was a child which I think is so sad.
Thanks for sharing
Tosca
The best news is that (fingers crossed and all that especially after
reading that your son had troubles until age 9 sigh) this summer has
been DRY!!! lol
>I don't want kids to be qualms-free, if they're headed toward doingI can agree with that.
>something that will have to be cleaned up after (socially, morally).
> If we had a door,You don't have doors? Do tell ;o;
I too hope people are learning from this list and the discussion and
not leaving over what they are reading rather than hitting Next and
moving on from things they do not agree with or want to be bothered
with but then again sometimes when people really get talking a person
can realize what's really important to them and how to move totally
away if the conversations aren't a part of that.
I didn't go into a lot of detail about my daughters bed wetting but
here are some of the reasons I didn't suggest we go back to diapers:
the first 6 months after she was potty trained she slept dry through
the night. In which time we gave away most of what we had used for
diapers (cloth stuff) so they weren't even around plus when those
first few wet nights occured I just thought they would be passing
glitches.
2 years later when we discovered (and I think when also her body had
changed and grown a bit more in the bladder department) that night
time wetting could all but be avoided it seemed only natural that we
could then shift our behavior to do that.
So it was like WOW we had a dry night which followed potting before
bed lets try that again, and we did. Till we knew it really worked.
I wasn't worried about when she would stop or the laundry the whole
thing only became an issue when she realized she could get around wet
a.m.s but she refused to & she wanted to be upset about it too.
She always slept through the night so it was never that her sleep was
interupted and in the a.m. she could get out of her wet things and
into one of my T shirts to bum around the house or head straight to
the tub on her own. And for months I continued to do her bed (which
has a plastic mattress so just strip it, wipe it clean, let it dry
and re make it).
My X said the same thing his mother shamed him over the issue when he
was a child which I think is so sad.
Thanks for sharing
Tosca
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
If she's wetting the bed, she shouldn't be out of diapers at night.
... If bedclothes and laundry are more important than comfortable
sleep,...... Sleep is more important than keeping up with the Jones's
development charts. Or I think it should be, if the child is
important...I think it is a genetic thing. Marty, who is like his
dad in just about every perceivable way, did and his dad had. But
his dad had been shamed and yelled at and derided. Marty wasn't.
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/24/04 9:04:48 PM, toscasac@... writes:
<< I too hope people are learning from this list and the discussion and
not leaving over what they are reading rather than hitting Next and
moving on from things they do not agree with or want to be bothered
with but then again sometimes when people really get talking a person
can realize what's really important to them and how to move totally
away if the conversations aren't a part of that. >>
It's okay if people leave and find other sources of information.
And if there's something they son't agree with or don't want to bothered
with, hitting "NEXT" is a perfect response.
No one has to be here.
If judges start ordering people to read this list, we can just shut it down.
Otherwise, people are pretty freely in and out as they choose.
Sandra
<< I too hope people are learning from this list and the discussion and
not leaving over what they are reading rather than hitting Next and
moving on from things they do not agree with or want to be bothered
with but then again sometimes when people really get talking a person
can realize what's really important to them and how to move totally
away if the conversations aren't a part of that. >>
It's okay if people leave and find other sources of information.
And if there's something they son't agree with or don't want to bothered
with, hitting "NEXT" is a perfect response.
No one has to be here.
If judges start ordering people to read this list, we can just shut it down.
Otherwise, people are pretty freely in and out as they choose.
Sandra