Why isn't this working!?
Andrea Burlingame
I know this isn't a support group, but I don't have anyone else to talk to. I keep loosening up the contol around here, and my children are just becoming more and more demanding. And I am losing my cool even as much or more than ever, it seems. There is the near-constant bickering and fighting that I've mentioned before. They hit and kick each other. The 3yo does this for no apparent reason. If I remove her from the scene, she yells screams and stomps her feet andthen when she finally calms down 15-20 minutes later and lets me hold her and care for her a bit, she goes right back in and starts bugging someone. This is just one example of the complete chaos everyday is. The baby (1yo) pulls everyones hair and scratches and bites and pinches when he is thwarted in any way (and sometimes for no apparent reason he'll just run over and hurt one of the girls when they are watching something on tv)
Also, they want to watch tv (dvd's in our case, since we can't get tv here and can't afford cable) first thing in the morning, before the sleep is rubbed out of their eyes, and then ask for it every hour or more all day long, even when I have other things to do with them. I haven't been saying no except for when I just don't want to hear and see the blasted thing anymore. I don't really like the tv on in the daytime. It literally drones in my ears and I find it very distracting and I start to feel depressed when it's on as much as it's been on lately. If it were up to me, we wouldn't have one. I love to watch sometimes in the evenings, but this is just adding to the crazy-making (of me anyway)around here. Plus, my kids are snippier and grumpier with alot of tv. They are also more "wired", literally bouncing off the walls after a long session. I've seen it before when I've eased up, and now I've been living with since June. I keep hoping that they will get their fill and not be so obsessed with watching it, but I'm really starting to lose it.
I want to cry (and often do) everyday out of frustration with dealing with my children. I feel guilty for getting so frustrated that yell and slam cabinets on occasion. With 3 little ones, there is constantly something going on that needs my immediate attention. (Since I sat down in desperation to write this, I've stopped to mediate a fight twice, got a snack for someone 3 times, kissed an "owie" once, cleaned up an accident the 3 yo had, got the baby away from the hamsters once and removed him from the girls' room just now--all in a space of what? Maybe 10-15 minutes. Argh!) How do you get to a place of peace!? I swear I've been trying, but I keep failing miserably!
Yesterday we went shopping. All the recent posts had me inspired. When 4 yo asked me for Red Vines, I said, "yeah, grab a bag for us." Then 3 yo immediately wanted chocolate teddy bear graham crackers. "OK." MY budget is so strict that I shouldn't have been buying this stuff, but I was inspired to let them pick. Well, they of course wanted EVERY single sweet treat they saw. I said yes to a couple of other things (Frosted Flakes and ice cream), but then said that's all we could afford for now and we needed milk and eggs. They were happy. They ate a red vine on the way home and then I asked them to wait for more, since I was making dinner (Mac and Cheese, which they had been asking me for all day.) Fine. One ate most of her dinner and the other ate about half of a small bowl. Said she was full. Then they wanted ice cream. I didn't say a word about being full, but got them each a little bowl of ice cream. They also ate another red vine. We tried to watch a movie at their request (they'd already watched 3 that day), but the baby wouldn't let us and it was getting late, so we went to feed and play with the hamsters. I suggested watching the movie later the next day, and 4 yo was fine, but 3 yo balked, even though she wasn't really watching the show anyway. She finally came around, though grumpily and she was obviously tired at 10:30. Circles under her eyes and all.
This morning I got up at 7:30 and everyone else followed shortly afterward. I am usually very cheerful in the morning, hoping for and ready for a happy day, and this day was no different. I gave everyone hugs and asked them how they slept. I asked everyone if they were hungry. They wanted Frosted Flakes. I poured them each a bowl and afterward offered some peanut butter in a spoon (something they like), because in the past a simple bowl of cereal has preceded grumpiness and them being hungry very shortly after eating. 4yo didn't want any, but 3yo and 1yo ate a little. Then they all wanted a movie, even though I had offered both the beach and to make plaster of paris creatures using balloons and then painting them with acrylic paint. They also ate red vines. My three year old asked for her 6th red vine and I suggested that we had some other snacks too. Would she like an apple or some cheese? 4 yo squeals, "Yes! and apple!and some chocolate bears!" 3 yo screams, "NO and stomps her feet and crosses her arms and demands red vines." I gave her another red vine, cored and sliced and apple and gave everyone some bears. 4 yo says she doesn't have enough bears even before eating one. I told her that if she was still hungry afterward and wanted more, she could have some. I started cleaning up the very messy kitchen that didn't get cleaned the night before. Before I could even get the dish water started, 4 yo says she is full and leaves the table full of uneaten apple wedges--beautiful, crispy, tart-sweet Braeburns that she used to love. I bite my tongue and ate them myself even though I'm not hungry. I also peeled one wedge and gave it to the baby. I hate to see them turn brown and go to waste. Then, about 20 minutes later, 4 yo comes up to me and says she's hungry. She asked me for chocolate bears. 3 yo asked for more red vines. They have been fighting and whining and screaming at each other and me all morning. I said no to more bears and vines and 3 yo started screaming at me and stomping her feet. I held her firmly by the arms and said, "Enough! I don't like to be screamed at." She started crying and stomping her feet and finally went off to play.
I'm sorry this is so long. It doesn't even scratch the surface of what goes on around here. Though we also have fun, many of our days are filled with fighting, crying, and whining. I just don't know what to do. It wasn't always this hard. It seems like the more I freedom I give, the ruder they get with me and each other. I have to go, because my baby is crying and needing to nurse, and the girls are fighting again, so I can't even think to explain the nuances of our life. I'm just so tired of this. So tired.
~Andrea
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Also, they want to watch tv (dvd's in our case, since we can't get tv here and can't afford cable) first thing in the morning, before the sleep is rubbed out of their eyes, and then ask for it every hour or more all day long, even when I have other things to do with them. I haven't been saying no except for when I just don't want to hear and see the blasted thing anymore. I don't really like the tv on in the daytime. It literally drones in my ears and I find it very distracting and I start to feel depressed when it's on as much as it's been on lately. If it were up to me, we wouldn't have one. I love to watch sometimes in the evenings, but this is just adding to the crazy-making (of me anyway)around here. Plus, my kids are snippier and grumpier with alot of tv. They are also more "wired", literally bouncing off the walls after a long session. I've seen it before when I've eased up, and now I've been living with since June. I keep hoping that they will get their fill and not be so obsessed with watching it, but I'm really starting to lose it.
I want to cry (and often do) everyday out of frustration with dealing with my children. I feel guilty for getting so frustrated that yell and slam cabinets on occasion. With 3 little ones, there is constantly something going on that needs my immediate attention. (Since I sat down in desperation to write this, I've stopped to mediate a fight twice, got a snack for someone 3 times, kissed an "owie" once, cleaned up an accident the 3 yo had, got the baby away from the hamsters once and removed him from the girls' room just now--all in a space of what? Maybe 10-15 minutes. Argh!) How do you get to a place of peace!? I swear I've been trying, but I keep failing miserably!
Yesterday we went shopping. All the recent posts had me inspired. When 4 yo asked me for Red Vines, I said, "yeah, grab a bag for us." Then 3 yo immediately wanted chocolate teddy bear graham crackers. "OK." MY budget is so strict that I shouldn't have been buying this stuff, but I was inspired to let them pick. Well, they of course wanted EVERY single sweet treat they saw. I said yes to a couple of other things (Frosted Flakes and ice cream), but then said that's all we could afford for now and we needed milk and eggs. They were happy. They ate a red vine on the way home and then I asked them to wait for more, since I was making dinner (Mac and Cheese, which they had been asking me for all day.) Fine. One ate most of her dinner and the other ate about half of a small bowl. Said she was full. Then they wanted ice cream. I didn't say a word about being full, but got them each a little bowl of ice cream. They also ate another red vine. We tried to watch a movie at their request (they'd already watched 3 that day), but the baby wouldn't let us and it was getting late, so we went to feed and play with the hamsters. I suggested watching the movie later the next day, and 4 yo was fine, but 3 yo balked, even though she wasn't really watching the show anyway. She finally came around, though grumpily and she was obviously tired at 10:30. Circles under her eyes and all.
This morning I got up at 7:30 and everyone else followed shortly afterward. I am usually very cheerful in the morning, hoping for and ready for a happy day, and this day was no different. I gave everyone hugs and asked them how they slept. I asked everyone if they were hungry. They wanted Frosted Flakes. I poured them each a bowl and afterward offered some peanut butter in a spoon (something they like), because in the past a simple bowl of cereal has preceded grumpiness and them being hungry very shortly after eating. 4yo didn't want any, but 3yo and 1yo ate a little. Then they all wanted a movie, even though I had offered both the beach and to make plaster of paris creatures using balloons and then painting them with acrylic paint. They also ate red vines. My three year old asked for her 6th red vine and I suggested that we had some other snacks too. Would she like an apple or some cheese? 4 yo squeals, "Yes! and apple!and some chocolate bears!" 3 yo screams, "NO and stomps her feet and crosses her arms and demands red vines." I gave her another red vine, cored and sliced and apple and gave everyone some bears. 4 yo says she doesn't have enough bears even before eating one. I told her that if she was still hungry afterward and wanted more, she could have some. I started cleaning up the very messy kitchen that didn't get cleaned the night before. Before I could even get the dish water started, 4 yo says she is full and leaves the table full of uneaten apple wedges--beautiful, crispy, tart-sweet Braeburns that she used to love. I bite my tongue and ate them myself even though I'm not hungry. I also peeled one wedge and gave it to the baby. I hate to see them turn brown and go to waste. Then, about 20 minutes later, 4 yo comes up to me and says she's hungry. She asked me for chocolate bears. 3 yo asked for more red vines. They have been fighting and whining and screaming at each other and me all morning. I said no to more bears and vines and 3 yo started screaming at me and stomping her feet. I held her firmly by the arms and said, "Enough! I don't like to be screamed at." She started crying and stomping her feet and finally went off to play.
I'm sorry this is so long. It doesn't even scratch the surface of what goes on around here. Though we also have fun, many of our days are filled with fighting, crying, and whining. I just don't know what to do. It wasn't always this hard. It seems like the more I freedom I give, the ruder they get with me and each other. I have to go, because my baby is crying and needing to nurse, and the girls are fighting again, so I can't even think to explain the nuances of our life. I'm just so tired of this. So tired.
~Andrea
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
valgird
Andrea,
I'm new, but I see that nobody has responded to your e-mail, which
brought tears to my eyes in empathy!
You know, I think it is good to keep in mind that *every* individual
in the family is important and worthy of respect. That means that the
children's needs and the parents' needs are equally important. If one
person poses a physical or emotional threat to another, aren't the
rights of the threatened person impinged upon? Can you help them to
figure out ways to work out difficulties - sometimes they just need a
little help in figuring out how to make their needs/frustrations
known. (With my children, I might help one by saying something
like, "You hit me! It hurt! Don't do it again!" There isn't a
punishment involved, but the hurt child may need that help in getting
a message across.)
If the family does not have enough money to buy 'junk' food as well
as healthy food, it seems fine to let the children in on that. Yes,
children can and will make the "right" choices, and they may choose
to have just what tastes good - as an adult, I know I'd often choose
chocolate over fruit, even knowing rationally why I shouldn't. I
think it is OK to talk to the children about healthy eating habits -
you know, not emotionally, but just informing - and let them know
that as long as there is a food budget, we as a family need to choose
things that will make our bodies healthy. Maybe you could help them
figure out the yummiest healthy food, and have them choose among
them...just to get them looking in that direction?
I wonder if the little ones are asking for attention from the older
ones, and are still figuring out ways to do it. A pinch gets an
immediate response, eh! Maybe giving the older ones the words/tools
to help them let the babies know they don't like it - those words,
and even walking away from the baby - "If you pinch me, I will go
away from you so my body is safe" (or something, you know) - without
a huge emotional response, which is sort of fun for a baby to get.
Keeping calm is the hardest thing! But if you rob the baby of the
response from the 'bad' stuff, and then quickly come back and give
lots of hugs and attention, they'll figure out how to get the nice
things they want without hurting others. Again, I really think it's
so good to remember that *every* individual in the family is
deserving of respect, and one's individual freedom must stop where
another's begins. You can kick and run all you want, but when your
feet hit my body, well, that's enough! :)
About the TV - why isn't your voice as important as others in this?
If you don't want to have one, can it at least be brought up? Can a
compromise be found - children can have it on sometimes, mom can have
it off sometimes?
I do think when control has been heavy and is lifted, there can be
chaos, as you are feeling (although I'm sure to an outside observer,
it's not that bad, really!). I wonder if going in smaller steps might
be helpful for everybody, as you all travel along this path? You
know, as the children become used to having their power and control,
they will also learn how to use it positively.
I hope my post doesn't come off sounding bad, it's hard to get this
across in e-mail, and it's certainly not like I'm some expert at
this. I just really feel for you and your famly, and I hope you can
get the support you need in this. Clearly, you are a good, loving,
and caring mother!
take care,
Jen
I'm new, but I see that nobody has responded to your e-mail, which
brought tears to my eyes in empathy!
You know, I think it is good to keep in mind that *every* individual
in the family is important and worthy of respect. That means that the
children's needs and the parents' needs are equally important. If one
person poses a physical or emotional threat to another, aren't the
rights of the threatened person impinged upon? Can you help them to
figure out ways to work out difficulties - sometimes they just need a
little help in figuring out how to make their needs/frustrations
known. (With my children, I might help one by saying something
like, "You hit me! It hurt! Don't do it again!" There isn't a
punishment involved, but the hurt child may need that help in getting
a message across.)
If the family does not have enough money to buy 'junk' food as well
as healthy food, it seems fine to let the children in on that. Yes,
children can and will make the "right" choices, and they may choose
to have just what tastes good - as an adult, I know I'd often choose
chocolate over fruit, even knowing rationally why I shouldn't. I
think it is OK to talk to the children about healthy eating habits -
you know, not emotionally, but just informing - and let them know
that as long as there is a food budget, we as a family need to choose
things that will make our bodies healthy. Maybe you could help them
figure out the yummiest healthy food, and have them choose among
them...just to get them looking in that direction?
I wonder if the little ones are asking for attention from the older
ones, and are still figuring out ways to do it. A pinch gets an
immediate response, eh! Maybe giving the older ones the words/tools
to help them let the babies know they don't like it - those words,
and even walking away from the baby - "If you pinch me, I will go
away from you so my body is safe" (or something, you know) - without
a huge emotional response, which is sort of fun for a baby to get.
Keeping calm is the hardest thing! But if you rob the baby of the
response from the 'bad' stuff, and then quickly come back and give
lots of hugs and attention, they'll figure out how to get the nice
things they want without hurting others. Again, I really think it's
so good to remember that *every* individual in the family is
deserving of respect, and one's individual freedom must stop where
another's begins. You can kick and run all you want, but when your
feet hit my body, well, that's enough! :)
About the TV - why isn't your voice as important as others in this?
If you don't want to have one, can it at least be brought up? Can a
compromise be found - children can have it on sometimes, mom can have
it off sometimes?
I do think when control has been heavy and is lifted, there can be
chaos, as you are feeling (although I'm sure to an outside observer,
it's not that bad, really!). I wonder if going in smaller steps might
be helpful for everybody, as you all travel along this path? You
know, as the children become used to having their power and control,
they will also learn how to use it positively.
I hope my post doesn't come off sounding bad, it's hard to get this
across in e-mail, and it's certainly not like I'm some expert at
this. I just really feel for you and your famly, and I hope you can
get the support you need in this. Clearly, you are a good, loving,
and caring mother!
take care,
Jen
Have a Nice Day!
I understand your need to explain it all, it sounds very chaotic and your post conveys your frustration. But it might be easier to try and sum up the specific problems in order to arrive at some solutions.
It sounds like the two major problems in your post are about TV and Food.
See below.
It sounds like the two major problems in your post are about TV and Food.
See below.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrea Burlingame
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 11:35 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
>>They hit and kick each other. The 3yo does this for no apparent reason. If I remove her from the scene, she yells screams and stomps her feet andthen when she finally calms down 15-20 minutes later and lets me hold her and care for her a bit, she goes right back in and starts bugging someone. <<
Its good to remove her from the situation but at the age of 3, is it possible to get her involved in something she likes rather than "remove her". Can she take a warm bath? Do they all have to play together?
>>>The baby (1yo) pulls everyones hair and scratches and bites and pinches when he is thwarted in any way (and sometimes for no apparent reason he'll just run over and hurt one of the girls when they are watching something on tv)<<<
Many 1 year olds pull hair. Maybe find something similar for him to pull on?
>>Also, they want to watch tv (dvd's in our case, since we can't get tv here and can't afford cable) first thing in the morning, before the sleep is rubbed out of their eyes,<<
Your disapproval of tv first thing in the morning is very clear from your post, and I'm sure your kids are aware of it too.
>>and then ask for it every hour or more all day long, even when I have other things to do with them. <<
Why do they have to do other things. Can't they watch tv if they want?
>>I haven't been saying no except for when I just don't want to hear and see the blasted thing anymore. I don't really like the tv on in the daytime. It literally drones in my ears and I find it very distracting and I start to feel depressed when it's on as much as it's been on lately. If it were up to me, we wouldn't have one. <<
Why does tv affect you this way? It is clear that you do not like tv, but have you ever thought about why? Are you sure that your reasons for the dislike are really valid?
Is it possible you are setting up a power struggle with the kids because although you haven't said no, you would feel much better if you did?
>>Plus, my kids are snippier and grumpier with alot of tv. <<
Is it the tv? Or is it that they sense your disapproval?
>>They are also more "wired", literally bouncing off the walls after a long session. I've seen it before when I've eased up, and now I've been living with since June. I keep hoping that they will get their fill and not be so obsessed with watching it, but I'm really starting to lose it.<<
But if you keep hoping things will change, then you aren't really giving them the control. You're giving them a reprieve from the status quo. They probably know that. Maybe you need to come to terms with the idea that tv is ok, and that if they are happy watching tv right now and you don't like tv, then you can be happy finding something else to do, albeit with them. And it would probably have to be something you can put down easily.
>>With 3 little ones, there is constantly something going on that needs my immediate attention.<<
I'm absolutely sure you are right about that.
>>(Since I sat down in desperation to write this, I've stopped to mediate a fight twice, got a snack for someone 3 times, kissed an "owie" once, cleaned up an accident the 3 yo had, got the baby away from the hamsters once and removed him from the girls' room just now--all in a space of what? Maybe 10-15 minutes. Argh!) How do you get to a place of peace!? I swear I've been trying, but I keep failing miserably!<<
Are you actually *with* your kids while they are doing things that interest them? Are you content just being with them doing whatever they like to do (even if its tv)? Or are you using the time that they are occupied to "get things done". If you are using that time to "Get things done", they are going to drop what they are doing to get your attention...even if you're only MIA for 10 minutes. Its the nature of the age.
When you have children so young, arriving at a 'place of peace" does not mean that you get time to yourself :o).
And having "peace" starts with your own state of mind. You are having trouble letting go of controls to begin with. That is creating a conflict for your state of mind. I suspect a lot of this follows from that conflict.
>>Yesterday we went shopping. <<
Big mistake. There is no reason why you should take 3 young kids shopping with you (unless there are circumstances that I missed somewhere). There is no reason why you need to do that to yourself.
>> They were happy. They ate a red vine on the way home and then I asked them to wait for more, since I was making dinner (Mac and Cheese, which they had been asking me for all day.) Fine. One ate most of her dinner and the other ate about half of a small bowl. Said she was full. Then they wanted ice cream. I didn't say a word about being full, but got them each a little bowl of ice cream. They also ate another red vine. We tried to watch a movie at their request (they'd already watched 3 that day), but the baby wouldn't let us and it was getting late, so we went to feed and play with the hamsters. I suggested watching the movie later the next day, and 4 yo was fine, but 3 yo balked, even though she wasn't really watching the show anyway. <<
Is there a reason why the 3 yo couldn't watch the movie while you did things with the baby and 4 year old? Honestly, it really sounds as if they are testing you to see if you are really going to let *them* make the choices.
This morning I got up at 7:30 and everyone else followed shortly afterward. I am usually very cheerful in the morning, hoping for and ready for a happy day, and this day was no different. I gave everyone hugs and asked them how they slept. I asked everyone if they were hungry. They wanted Frosted Flakes. I poured them each a bowl and afterward offered some peanut butter in a spoon (something they like), because in the past a simple bowl of cereal has preceded grumpiness and them being hungry very shortly after eating. 4yo didn't want any, but 3yo and 1yo ate a little. Then they all wanted a movie, even though I had offered both the beach and to make plaster of paris creatures using balloons and then painting them with acrylic paint. They also ate red vines. My three year old asked for her 6th red vine and I suggested that we had some other snacks too. Would she like an apple or some cheese? 4 yo squeals, "Yes! and apple!and some chocolate bears!" 3 yo screams, "NO and stomps her feet and crosses her arms and demands red vines." I gave her another red vine, cored and sliced and apple and gave everyone some bears. 4 yo says she doesn't have enough bears even before eating one. I told her that if she was still hungry afterward and wanted more, she could have some. I started cleaning up the very messy kitchen that didn't get cleaned the night before. Before I could even get the dish water started, 4 yo says she is full and leaves the table full of uneaten apple wedges--beautiful, crispy, tart-sweet Braeburns that she used to love. I bite my tongue and ate them myself even though I'm not hungry. I also peeled one wedge and gave it to the baby. I hate to see them turn brown and go to waste. Then, about 20 minutes later, 4 yo comes up to me and says she's hungry. She asked me for chocolate bears. 3 yo asked for more red vines. They have been fighting and whining and screaming at each other and me all morning. I said no to more bears and vines and 3 yo started screaming at me and stomping her feet. I held her firmly by the arms and said, "Enough! I don't like to be screamed at." She started crying and stomping her feet and finally went off to play.<<<
Again, your disapproval of their choices comes through loud and clear. You are also still doling out the food in quantities that you decide on, and asking them to "wait until dinner". You are upset because things are "going to waste" and "biting your toungue" at your kids while you describe a piece of fruit as "beautiful and crispy". And you ate the fruit even though you weren't hungry. That was your choice based on your ideas of the "Right way to handle leftover food". I know that you are thinking of the money it takes to buy the food you have, and how much could be saved if things weren't wasted. But when it comes right down to it....an apple has become a higher priority than the kids.
If they don't eat all the apple wedges, sprinkle them with lemon juice and put them in a zip lock bag. They won't turn brown then. Or, cook them down and make applesauce or compote out of them.
Can you just put all the food where they can freely access it? And then just let them pick and choose what they want in whatever quantity they want. That way you don't have to decide how much they should have of what. They can decide for themselves. Of course, then you will have to deal with the same problem I have....keeping enough around so that they aren't hording it :o).
It leaves the kitchen a bit of a mess, for sure. And you'll have to deal with your feelings of things "going to waste". But the trade off is that they will learn how to eat in a way that satisfies their hunger, without attatching any particular signigicance to food.
>> It seems like the more I freedom I give, the ruder they get with me and each other. <<
Are you really giving them freedom? Or are you giving them the illusion of freedom while you monitor everything they do and hope they change? It sounds like you are still holding on to your idea of "the way things should be" and hoping that by letting go of controls, they'll just naturally gravitate toward what you believe.
If you are really going to let go of controls, you have to let them develop their own...and they may not be the same as yours.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<I understand your need to explain it all, it sounds very chaotic and your
post conveys your frustration. But it might be easier to try and sum up the
specific problems in order to arrive at some solutions.
[snip]....
Are you really giving them freedom? Or are you giving them the illusion of
freedom while you monitor everything they do and hope they change? It
sounds like you are still holding on to your idea of "the way things should
be" and hoping that by letting go of controls, they'll just naturally
gravitate toward what you believe.
If you are really going to let go of controls, you have to let them
develop their own...and they may not be the same as yours.>>>>
Without quoting the whole thing, I want to endorse *everything* that Kristen
has posted. I was going to say pretty much the same ideas, even to making
apple sauce. Andrea and her kids are still decompressing from a controlled
lifestyle - so it will seem wild while that process continues.
The only thing I will say is that I think Andrea has few resources in terms
of other people to help and pretty much has to take them all with her to go
shopping. Sometimes more but briefer trips work better than fewer longer
trips to the store. I get Jayn (4.5) to choose things and fetch them to the
cart to help assuage her boredom at the store eg I send her for a package of
tomatoes. Sometimes we get romas when beefsteaks would be better, but I
don't complain.
Robyn L. Coburn
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post conveys your frustration. But it might be easier to try and sum up the
specific problems in order to arrive at some solutions.
[snip]....
Are you really giving them freedom? Or are you giving them the illusion of
freedom while you monitor everything they do and hope they change? It
sounds like you are still holding on to your idea of "the way things should
be" and hoping that by letting go of controls, they'll just naturally
gravitate toward what you believe.
If you are really going to let go of controls, you have to let them
develop their own...and they may not be the same as yours.>>>>
Without quoting the whole thing, I want to endorse *everything* that Kristen
has posted. I was going to say pretty much the same ideas, even to making
apple sauce. Andrea and her kids are still decompressing from a controlled
lifestyle - so it will seem wild while that process continues.
The only thing I will say is that I think Andrea has few resources in terms
of other people to help and pretty much has to take them all with her to go
shopping. Sometimes more but briefer trips work better than fewer longer
trips to the store. I get Jayn (4.5) to choose things and fetch them to the
cart to help assuage her boredom at the store eg I send her for a package of
tomatoes. Sometimes we get romas when beefsteaks would be better, but I
don't complain.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Danielle Conger
Andrea wrote:
I want to cry (and often do) everyday out of frustration with dealing with my children. I feel guilty for getting so frustrated that yell and slam cabinets on occasion. With 3 little ones, there is constantly something going on that needs my immediate attention. *** How do you get to a place of peace!? I swear I've been trying, but I keep failing miserably!
=====
The first thing anyone here is going to say is *breathe*. Breathing is incredibly valuable if you don't underestimate its power. When folks here tell you to breathe, I don't think they mean just catch your breath from talking so fast. It's more like slow down and breathe deeply. Close your eyes; breathe through your nose; feel your lungs fill up with air until they can't hold anymore; slowly let the breath back out through your nose. This is a deep cleansing breath. Your nose is a natural filtration system. Closing your eyes helps shut out the world. Take another deep cleansing breath and another.
I first learned the value of deep breathing when I quit smoking in grad school. One of the reasons smoking relaxes people is that it forces them to breath deeply and slowly for as long as they're smoking the cigarette. I realized that I could hold a pencil in my hand and focus on my breathing for 10 minutes. Believe it or not, this made a tremendous difference in dealing with the stress of graduate life without the crutch of smoking. Lamaze also taught me the value of deep breathing, so if you took a Lamaze class, start doing those cleansing breaths again: one for the baby, one for the mama, and maybe one for each of the other kiddos, too. Do this every time you feel your body tensing up and think you're spiraling out of control.
======
I keep loosening up the contol around here, and my children are just becoming more and more demanding. And I am losing my cool even as much or more than ever, it seems. There is the near-constant bickering and fighting that I've mentioned before.
======
It's going to take them a while. They're seeing how far they can go before the freedom and choices get cut off again. Why are they bickering and fighting? Try to identify what's causing the problems and brainstorm with them for ways to solve it. My kids are 17 and 16 months apart--I know what it's like to try to parent several very young children. Right now, they're 7, 5 and 4, and it's getting easier. The biggest difference I made in my life was getting things down on their level--giving them control over their environment and making it easier for them to do for themselves. It always amazes me how much I love my refridgerator (water and ice on the door) when I go visiting and I'm up and down all day getting the kids drinks and other things they'd be able to do for themselves at home. Try to organize your house to make your life and your job as easy as possible; do the same for the kids. Shortcuts are extremely valuable with young kids. Focus your priorities on living joyfully and easily together.
=====
Also, they want to watch tv (dvd's in our case, since we can't get tv here and can't afford cable) first thing in the morning, before the sleep is rubbed out of their eyes, and then ask for it every hour or more all day long, even when I have other things to do with them.
=====
So let them. Even if they just woke up, even if they have sleep in their eyes, even if you have other plans, let them. If it's bugging you, then find something else to occupy your time. Where's your tv located that it's bugging you? Can you move it to another room where you don't have to listen to it? We have one in the playroom downstairs with a VCR and one in our bedroom with a DVD--either way, I can get away from it if I need to, which I often do because I don't like to watch during the day either. Lots of other times I'll watch with the kids or I'll bring my laptop and read email, write or work on my webpage, lots of times I'll read a book or do a crossword puzzle, so that I'm with them but fulfilling my needs at the same time. Find stuff that makes you happy and do it alongside them so you don't even notice the tv, but are physically close, present and available. Be prepared to be interrupted, and welcome the chance to help. Learn to do the things you like through the interruptions and don't be resentful. If you can prepare yourself for the requests for help and look at any time you get to focus on your own things as a gift, then you can start nurturing yourself and your children. I think the key is working them together and not seeing them as mutually exclusive possibilities.
=====
Plus, my kids are snippier and grumpier with alot of tv. They are also more "wired", literally bouncing off the walls after a long session.
=====
When they're done, get them outside or wrestle on the floor with them for a while. We have an indoor hopscotch that we can put together and play if it's dark outside. There are lots of physical options to get that energy out before it gets directed at each other in negative ways. Get them to brainstorm with you. Bath tubs have been really helpful in defusing my kids as well. See who can jump the highest, or grab a broom and do the limbo. Put on some music and dance together. My kids *love* dancing, and we probably don't do that enough! Two of my favorite little kids CD's to dance to are Sugar Beats "Everybody is a Star" and Red Grammer's "Hello World!" We would put those on, grab some silky scarves and dance. If I was really grumpy or really depressed, I would put on one of my hardcore CDs like the Chilli Peppers or, now, Alannis Morissett. Yeah, the language in them is bad, but the kids don't even pick that up, and man, does it provide a really great realease! Way better to be exposed to the occasional curse words and some nasty lyrics that are all slurred together anyway than a mama's yelling or general grumpiness. Do this while your kids are watching something, crank it up loud and just dance with abandon. Seriously.
=====
MY budget is so strict that I shouldn't have been buying this stuff, but I was inspired to let them pick. Well, they of course wanted EVERY single sweet treat they saw. I said yes to a couple of other things (Frosted Flakes and ice cream), but then said that's all we could afford for now and we needed milk and eggs. They were happy.
=====
Lots of us here operate on a budget--some tighter than others. In my experience, the most important thing is to explain the situation to the kids clearly before going to the store. Make it clear to them that there is a limited amount of money to spend, that they may each choose one special thing and that they may want to consider carefully how long it will last because that's it until the next budgeted shopping time. I've had conversations with my kids recently about how expensive preprepared foods can be. I just honestly tell them that we can afford only a few things like that, but that ingredients to make cookies are pretty cheap. So, we can spend our money on icecream and buy ingredients to make cookies. Cereal is the thing that hits me the hardest: a $5 box disappears in one or two days in my family. Even young kids can grasp money constraints if you can demonstrate it in concrete terms. I've done it before with my kids using M&Ms. It becomes really obvious how quickly a limited number of M&Ms disappear.
Money can be a great source of stress and unhappiness. If you're always worrying about money, then those beautiful crispy apples become way more than just an apple someone didn't want to finish. That simple apple takes on the power to make or break a household--more power than it probably deserves even on the tightest budget. I don't want to presume to understand what your financial situation is or to give you bad advice, but I do want to say that sometimes ease and joy outweigh finances. Only you can decide when that is practical in your own household.
There are several books you may find helpful if you haven't already read them: Raising Your Spirited Child, by Kurcinka; Living Joyfully with Children, by the Sweets; The Explosive Child, by Greene; Siblings without Rivalry and How to Talk so Your Kids will Listen, by Faber and Mazlish; Wherever You Go, There you Are, by Kabat-Zinn. That's a lot of reading but the books all offer some really practical advice for what you're going through. I have also found eliminating corn syrup from guys diet to be tremendously helpful in reducing his tantrums and rages--the whole foods can be harder on the budget, but cooking from scratch makes up for a lot of that. Doris Rapp's Is This Your Child? is helpful for trying to see if there's some connection between behavior and food sensitivities.
The biggest difference you can make is shifting your own attitude, which is simple and really hard at the same time. From your second post, it sounds like you're with the kids 24/7 pretty much without anyone to help out or give you any relief. I'm sure folks here have suggested having a mother's helper in. If your finances don't allow that, you might try to find a younger child who's looking for some babysitting experience who could come in while you're still at home. Or try to trade off with another mother. If nothing like that works out, it sounds to me like you need to find a way to carve out some time for yourself without someone else coming in. Taking a hot bath by yourself after the kids have gone to sleep or while they're watching the tv, for instance. I think embracing the tv/videos instead of fighting might do you a world of good and go a long way towards getting some time for yourself.
Young kids are needy--there's no way around that. What would help is trying to find a way to meet their needs and yours at the same time. Find strategies that bring joy and happiness to everyone and quickly shift into those when you feel you're getting ready to lose it. When my dh goes away, that approach is invaluable. Making our own sundaes, with all different topings to choose from; popping popcorn and snuggling over a movie; making milkshakes; cllimb into the tub and blow bubbles. We do those things fairly regularly, but they still seem like treats when we quickly shift into them at an unexpected time, and they can really defuse escalating tempers. Biggest thing is being honest with your kids and including them in the brainstorming process. Sit down together for a family meeting and come up with ways to solve the problems that seem most frequent. My kids have come up with some terrific solutions for things that I never would have thought of--even little ones can do this, honest, and it will lay the foundation for family problem-solving and communication that will be so important as they grow older.
<>--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
I want to cry (and often do) everyday out of frustration with dealing with my children. I feel guilty for getting so frustrated that yell and slam cabinets on occasion. With 3 little ones, there is constantly something going on that needs my immediate attention. *** How do you get to a place of peace!? I swear I've been trying, but I keep failing miserably!
=====
The first thing anyone here is going to say is *breathe*. Breathing is incredibly valuable if you don't underestimate its power. When folks here tell you to breathe, I don't think they mean just catch your breath from talking so fast. It's more like slow down and breathe deeply. Close your eyes; breathe through your nose; feel your lungs fill up with air until they can't hold anymore; slowly let the breath back out through your nose. This is a deep cleansing breath. Your nose is a natural filtration system. Closing your eyes helps shut out the world. Take another deep cleansing breath and another.
I first learned the value of deep breathing when I quit smoking in grad school. One of the reasons smoking relaxes people is that it forces them to breath deeply and slowly for as long as they're smoking the cigarette. I realized that I could hold a pencil in my hand and focus on my breathing for 10 minutes. Believe it or not, this made a tremendous difference in dealing with the stress of graduate life without the crutch of smoking. Lamaze also taught me the value of deep breathing, so if you took a Lamaze class, start doing those cleansing breaths again: one for the baby, one for the mama, and maybe one for each of the other kiddos, too. Do this every time you feel your body tensing up and think you're spiraling out of control.
======
I keep loosening up the contol around here, and my children are just becoming more and more demanding. And I am losing my cool even as much or more than ever, it seems. There is the near-constant bickering and fighting that I've mentioned before.
======
It's going to take them a while. They're seeing how far they can go before the freedom and choices get cut off again. Why are they bickering and fighting? Try to identify what's causing the problems and brainstorm with them for ways to solve it. My kids are 17 and 16 months apart--I know what it's like to try to parent several very young children. Right now, they're 7, 5 and 4, and it's getting easier. The biggest difference I made in my life was getting things down on their level--giving them control over their environment and making it easier for them to do for themselves. It always amazes me how much I love my refridgerator (water and ice on the door) when I go visiting and I'm up and down all day getting the kids drinks and other things they'd be able to do for themselves at home. Try to organize your house to make your life and your job as easy as possible; do the same for the kids. Shortcuts are extremely valuable with young kids. Focus your priorities on living joyfully and easily together.
=====
Also, they want to watch tv (dvd's in our case, since we can't get tv here and can't afford cable) first thing in the morning, before the sleep is rubbed out of their eyes, and then ask for it every hour or more all day long, even when I have other things to do with them.
=====
So let them. Even if they just woke up, even if they have sleep in their eyes, even if you have other plans, let them. If it's bugging you, then find something else to occupy your time. Where's your tv located that it's bugging you? Can you move it to another room where you don't have to listen to it? We have one in the playroom downstairs with a VCR and one in our bedroom with a DVD--either way, I can get away from it if I need to, which I often do because I don't like to watch during the day either. Lots of other times I'll watch with the kids or I'll bring my laptop and read email, write or work on my webpage, lots of times I'll read a book or do a crossword puzzle, so that I'm with them but fulfilling my needs at the same time. Find stuff that makes you happy and do it alongside them so you don't even notice the tv, but are physically close, present and available. Be prepared to be interrupted, and welcome the chance to help. Learn to do the things you like through the interruptions and don't be resentful. If you can prepare yourself for the requests for help and look at any time you get to focus on your own things as a gift, then you can start nurturing yourself and your children. I think the key is working them together and not seeing them as mutually exclusive possibilities.
=====
Plus, my kids are snippier and grumpier with alot of tv. They are also more "wired", literally bouncing off the walls after a long session.
=====
When they're done, get them outside or wrestle on the floor with them for a while. We have an indoor hopscotch that we can put together and play if it's dark outside. There are lots of physical options to get that energy out before it gets directed at each other in negative ways. Get them to brainstorm with you. Bath tubs have been really helpful in defusing my kids as well. See who can jump the highest, or grab a broom and do the limbo. Put on some music and dance together. My kids *love* dancing, and we probably don't do that enough! Two of my favorite little kids CD's to dance to are Sugar Beats "Everybody is a Star" and Red Grammer's "Hello World!" We would put those on, grab some silky scarves and dance. If I was really grumpy or really depressed, I would put on one of my hardcore CDs like the Chilli Peppers or, now, Alannis Morissett. Yeah, the language in them is bad, but the kids don't even pick that up, and man, does it provide a really great realease! Way better to be exposed to the occasional curse words and some nasty lyrics that are all slurred together anyway than a mama's yelling or general grumpiness. Do this while your kids are watching something, crank it up loud and just dance with abandon. Seriously.
=====
MY budget is so strict that I shouldn't have been buying this stuff, but I was inspired to let them pick. Well, they of course wanted EVERY single sweet treat they saw. I said yes to a couple of other things (Frosted Flakes and ice cream), but then said that's all we could afford for now and we needed milk and eggs. They were happy.
=====
Lots of us here operate on a budget--some tighter than others. In my experience, the most important thing is to explain the situation to the kids clearly before going to the store. Make it clear to them that there is a limited amount of money to spend, that they may each choose one special thing and that they may want to consider carefully how long it will last because that's it until the next budgeted shopping time. I've had conversations with my kids recently about how expensive preprepared foods can be. I just honestly tell them that we can afford only a few things like that, but that ingredients to make cookies are pretty cheap. So, we can spend our money on icecream and buy ingredients to make cookies. Cereal is the thing that hits me the hardest: a $5 box disappears in one or two days in my family. Even young kids can grasp money constraints if you can demonstrate it in concrete terms. I've done it before with my kids using M&Ms. It becomes really obvious how quickly a limited number of M&Ms disappear.
Money can be a great source of stress and unhappiness. If you're always worrying about money, then those beautiful crispy apples become way more than just an apple someone didn't want to finish. That simple apple takes on the power to make or break a household--more power than it probably deserves even on the tightest budget. I don't want to presume to understand what your financial situation is or to give you bad advice, but I do want to say that sometimes ease and joy outweigh finances. Only you can decide when that is practical in your own household.
There are several books you may find helpful if you haven't already read them: Raising Your Spirited Child, by Kurcinka; Living Joyfully with Children, by the Sweets; The Explosive Child, by Greene; Siblings without Rivalry and How to Talk so Your Kids will Listen, by Faber and Mazlish; Wherever You Go, There you Are, by Kabat-Zinn. That's a lot of reading but the books all offer some really practical advice for what you're going through. I have also found eliminating corn syrup from guys diet to be tremendously helpful in reducing his tantrums and rages--the whole foods can be harder on the budget, but cooking from scratch makes up for a lot of that. Doris Rapp's Is This Your Child? is helpful for trying to see if there's some connection between behavior and food sensitivities.
The biggest difference you can make is shifting your own attitude, which is simple and really hard at the same time. From your second post, it sounds like you're with the kids 24/7 pretty much without anyone to help out or give you any relief. I'm sure folks here have suggested having a mother's helper in. If your finances don't allow that, you might try to find a younger child who's looking for some babysitting experience who could come in while you're still at home. Or try to trade off with another mother. If nothing like that works out, it sounds to me like you need to find a way to carve out some time for yourself without someone else coming in. Taking a hot bath by yourself after the kids have gone to sleep or while they're watching the tv, for instance. I think embracing the tv/videos instead of fighting might do you a world of good and go a long way towards getting some time for yourself.
Young kids are needy--there's no way around that. What would help is trying to find a way to meet their needs and yours at the same time. Find strategies that bring joy and happiness to everyone and quickly shift into those when you feel you're getting ready to lose it. When my dh goes away, that approach is invaluable. Making our own sundaes, with all different topings to choose from; popping popcorn and snuggling over a movie; making milkshakes; cllimb into the tub and blow bubbles. We do those things fairly regularly, but they still seem like treats when we quickly shift into them at an unexpected time, and they can really defuse escalating tempers. Biggest thing is being honest with your kids and including them in the brainstorming process. Sit down together for a family meeting and come up with ways to solve the problems that seem most frequent. My kids have come up with some terrific solutions for things that I never would have thought of--even little ones can do this, honest, and it will lay the foundation for family problem-solving and communication that will be so important as they grow older.
<>--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/21/2004 12:35:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
aburlingame@... writes:
I know this isn't a support group, but I don't have anyone else to talk to.
I keep loosening up the contol around here, and my children are just becoming
more and more demanding.
-------------
Don't remove your structuress. Just say yes more.
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/yes
One and three are babies. Treat them like babies, gently, spend tons of time
with them, there's nothing else to do.
-=-There is the near-constant bickering and fighting that I've mentioned
before. They hit and kick each other. The 3yo does this for no apparent reason.
-=-
It's not an unschooling matter.
-=-Also, they want to watch tv (dvd's in our case, since we can't get tv here
and can't afford cable) first thing in the morning, before the sleep is
rubbed out of their eyes, and then ask for it every hour or more all day long, even
when I have other things to do with them. I haven't been saying no except
for when I just don't want to hear and see the blasted thing anymore. -=-
If you find some sing-along videos or other happy kids' shows you can stand
to listen to, just leave them on all the time, then there's no asking.
-=- I don't really like the tv on in the daytime. It literally drones in my
ears and I find it very distracting and I start to feel depressed-=-
Maybe unschooling won't work for you. it's hard, but I think in any case in
which a parent can't put the kids' needs first, it's going to be a problem.
Others might disagree with me, but that's what I think.
But you're taking about really little kids who might go to school. It's not
an unschooling matter, in several ways, in my opinion.
-=- Plus, my kids are snippier and grumpier with alot of tv. -=-
Maybe they're grumpier when you're grumpier, and you're saying it makes you
grumpy, right?
Can you get out of the house every day? Can you go to a different park, a
mall, a place with a loading dock and a ramp?
-= How do you get to a place of peace!? I swear I've been trying, but I keep
failing miserably!
-=-
Learn to calm yourself with deep breathing.
Find some self-talk things (affirmations, some kind of personal
encouragement) to remind yourself why you want to dowhat you want to do. Fill your head
with the kind of mother you want to be. Try to be with other such mothers so
you can emulate them.
I had kids 1, 3 and 5. I know.
It gets better gradually. At the moment I have no one at the house but me.
There were years when I had kids all over me, sucking, crying, asking for
diferent food. I could have put them in preschool or daycare. Chose not to.
Wasn't homeschooling, wasn't unschooling, just trying to get them old enough for
school (which ended up not happening).
So if you plan to unschool, you have a better goal than I had!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aburlingame@... writes:
I know this isn't a support group, but I don't have anyone else to talk to.
I keep loosening up the contol around here, and my children are just becoming
more and more demanding.
-------------
Don't remove your structuress. Just say yes more.
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/yes
One and three are babies. Treat them like babies, gently, spend tons of time
with them, there's nothing else to do.
-=-There is the near-constant bickering and fighting that I've mentioned
before. They hit and kick each other. The 3yo does this for no apparent reason.
-=-
It's not an unschooling matter.
-=-Also, they want to watch tv (dvd's in our case, since we can't get tv here
and can't afford cable) first thing in the morning, before the sleep is
rubbed out of their eyes, and then ask for it every hour or more all day long, even
when I have other things to do with them. I haven't been saying no except
for when I just don't want to hear and see the blasted thing anymore. -=-
If you find some sing-along videos or other happy kids' shows you can stand
to listen to, just leave them on all the time, then there's no asking.
-=- I don't really like the tv on in the daytime. It literally drones in my
ears and I find it very distracting and I start to feel depressed-=-
Maybe unschooling won't work for you. it's hard, but I think in any case in
which a parent can't put the kids' needs first, it's going to be a problem.
Others might disagree with me, but that's what I think.
But you're taking about really little kids who might go to school. It's not
an unschooling matter, in several ways, in my opinion.
-=- Plus, my kids are snippier and grumpier with alot of tv. -=-
Maybe they're grumpier when you're grumpier, and you're saying it makes you
grumpy, right?
Can you get out of the house every day? Can you go to a different park, a
mall, a place with a loading dock and a ramp?
-= How do you get to a place of peace!? I swear I've been trying, but I keep
failing miserably!
-=-
Learn to calm yourself with deep breathing.
Find some self-talk things (affirmations, some kind of personal
encouragement) to remind yourself why you want to dowhat you want to do. Fill your head
with the kind of mother you want to be. Try to be with other such mothers so
you can emulate them.
I had kids 1, 3 and 5. I know.
It gets better gradually. At the moment I have no one at the house but me.
There were years when I had kids all over me, sucking, crying, asking for
diferent food. I could have put them in preschool or daycare. Chose not to.
Wasn't homeschooling, wasn't unschooling, just trying to get them old enough for
school (which ended up not happening).
So if you plan to unschool, you have a better goal than I had!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vijay Berry Owens
I am by no means an expert on unschooling, there are others here who
are, but a few things leapt out at me when I read your post that I just
had to respond to. Before you read them, please let me say that I really
really sympathize with how stressed out you are. I never get a break
either, but I only have one child. She's a handful, but it's nothing
compared to what you are going through. I wish I could help. It sounds
like you are feeling lonely and isolated. I can relate to that too. I am
way out in the country and don't drive. I am also living rent free in a
house owned by my MIL. DH makes only about 20K a year, so I understand
about being on a tight budget too.
Is there any way that you could pack all of the kids up and go to a
playground or a beach or a park and let them run around? It makes
matters worse for us when we fall into the trap of staying cooped up all
day. Even just going for a walk might help them expend some of their
energy in a healthier way than messing with each other and you all day.
I know it's hard with 3 kids, but it might help. Some fresh air and a
change of scenery sometimes really clears my head and helps me stay more
patient.
are, but a few things leapt out at me when I read your post that I just
had to respond to. Before you read them, please let me say that I really
really sympathize with how stressed out you are. I never get a break
either, but I only have one child. She's a handful, but it's nothing
compared to what you are going through. I wish I could help. It sounds
like you are feeling lonely and isolated. I can relate to that too. I am
way out in the country and don't drive. I am also living rent free in a
house owned by my MIL. DH makes only about 20K a year, so I understand
about being on a tight budget too.
Is there any way that you could pack all of the kids up and go to a
playground or a beach or a park and let them run around? It makes
matters worse for us when we fall into the trap of staying cooped up all
day. Even just going for a walk might help them expend some of their
energy in a healthier way than messing with each other and you all day.
I know it's hard with 3 kids, but it might help. Some fresh air and a
change of scenery sometimes really clears my head and helps me stay more
patient.
On Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 02:35 PM, Andrea Burlingame wrote:
> my children are just becoming more and more demanding.
I think this may just be a natural result of loosening the controls. The
pendulum swings all the way from one side to the other, but will reach
equilibrium in time. This is my understanding based on my reading about
unschooling. I've never actually experienced it. But I believe it to be
true.
> The baby (1yo) pulls everyones hair and scratches and bites and pinches
> when he is thwarted in any way (and sometimes for no apparent reason
> he'll just run over and hurt one of the girls when they are watching
> something on tv)
I could be wrong, but I think maybe you are expecting too much from a 1
y.o. They are easily frustrated at this age because they lack the
communication skills and intuition into their own emotions. Many times
they do things that hurt people just out of curiosity, not
maliciousness. "What happens when I pull mommy's hair really hard?" If
they are truly upset, they usually have a reason (hungry, tired,
teething, etc.) although sometimes it is hard to figure that out,
especially with the distraction of dealing with other kids. If I were in
your shoes I would put more effort into preventing this behavior rather
than into figuring out how to deal with it once it happens. That's not
very helpful, I know. You are already doing your best to keep everyone
happy I'm sure.
I had a problem a few months ago with DD hitting me in the face, and it
was easy to get SOOOOO angry and to think "how dare she?" but I learned
from some great moms at the AP discipline group that there must be a
reason why she is doing it, and she is not trying to hurt me or be mean.
They were right. I was invading her personal space by sticking my face
too close to hers. It got her too excited and she would slap me due to
being overstimulated by my face being in her face. It took a while to
figure this out, but once I did, no more hitting. Just an example.
>
> I haven't been saying no except
So you haven't removed the limits after all. It is my understanding that
it doesn't work until you do.
> My three year old asked for her 6th red vine and I suggested that we
> had some other snacks too. Would she like an apple or some cheese?
But they didn't ask for the apple. And it's pretty clear that they don't
believe that the sweets are unlimited. I don't think it works in one
day. Maybe rather than dole them out a few at a time while still pushing
apples and peanut butter you could just put everything within reach and
let them help themselves?
> Then, about 20 minutes later, 4 yo comes up to me and says she's
> hungry. She asked me for chocolate bears. 3 yo asked for more red
> vines. They have been fighting and whining and screaming at each other
> and me all morning. I said no to more bears and vines
I don't think you have removed the controls yet. Maybe you WANT to, and
maybe you are trying to move in that direction, but you can't expect the
results you have been told you will get from removing controls unless
you actually remove them. Saying something along the lines of "This
removing controls thing doesn't work" is only logical if you have
actually tried it. For real.
> the more I freedom I give, the ruder they get with me and each other.
I think you need to give even more freedom and more consistently before
you will see any changes. But of course I have to say that this is all
*theoretical* for me. I believe in this theory, but I have not tested it
myself.
Please hang in there, I feel for you, I really do. If you want to email
me offlist I would be happy to be your pen pal and try to help you
through this in whatever way I can.
:-)
-Vijay Berry Owens
SAHM to Charlotte, 15 months
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrea Burlingame
Its good to remove her from the situation but at the age of 3, is it
possible to get her involved in something she likes rather than "remove
her". Can she take a warm bath? Do they all have to play together?
=============================
Oh, this is EXACTLY what I try to to do for her. Sometimes she is
interested in another activity away from her sister, but lately she more
often just kicks her heel down over and over, grunts, throws things and
screams "NO!" at me when I make suggestions or offer somethign soothing. I
have to just leave her alone for awhile when she does that, and eventually,
sometimes sooner, sometimes much later she comes around.
............................................................................
.........................
Many 1 year olds pull hair. Maybe find something similar for him to pull
on?
============================
I realize that 1 year olds do this, although he is the first of my 4 to bite
as well. I know it's normal and try to help the girls keep safe from him
and I distract him from it all the time. He mostly does it when he is
frustrated, like when he wants to knock down their creations and they won't
let him. I either have them go where he can't bother him, or sometimes I
just carry him in on my back, which he likes. The main reason I mentioned
his hair pulling and biting and such, is because it is part of the whole
chaos around here. It isn't that I don't expect it from
him.........................................................................
..................
Your disapproval of tv first thing in the morning is very clear from your
post, and I'm sure your kids are aware of it too.
========================
Yes, they know that I don't like the noise of the tv first thing in the
morning and they know I don't like the tv on as much as it's been on lately
either. They also know I don't care for watching the same DVD's over and
over and over again, which is what happens here because we can't get any
network tv here and can't afford cable. We get our DVD's from the library
and they trickle in a few each week I put 100 holds on titles. It's
annoying to me to listen to the same theme songs and such over and over.
Are you saying that my kids are asking for tv because it annoys me? I don't
think this is the case.
............................................................................
...................
Why do they have to do other things. Can't they watch tv if they want?
======================
They don't HAVE to do other things. They usually enjoy doing other things.
They have been watching ALOT of tv lately. I'm sick of it, personally and
wish they wanted to do some crafts with me or go to the beach. Watching the
same shows over and over again is really boring to me, and, YES, I'm
dissappointed that they'd rather do that than something more interactive
with me.
............................................................................
......................
Why does tv affect you this way? It is clear that you do not like tv, but
have you ever thought about why? Are you sure that your reasons for the
dislike are really valid?
=======================
I do like tv. I love to watch Survivor. I watched so many movies in my
life that it is rare to find one I haven't seen at the video store. I just
don't really like it to be on during the day so much. I have thought about
why. I like to hear birds outside the window. I like to hear my own
thoughts or to listen to music sometimes. I like the quiet. I also like to
talk and to listen to my children talk, which they don't do much when the tv
is on. I've always been this way, not just since my kids were born. When I
was in the Air Force and had to live in a dorm with a roomate, I hated when
she'd get home before me and turn her tv on and leave it on until she either
went out or to bed. She wouldn't turn it off even if I asked, so I would
find somewhere else to be. (I eventually requested to be moved to another
room.) When I was dating my first husband, he kept the tv on low or muted
and tuned to the cartoon channel for ambiance. Ugh. I hated that. Even
when it was muted, I hated the visual "noise." I just don't like the tv on
very much.
............................................................................
.......................
Is it possible you are setting up a power struggle with the kids because
although you haven't said no, you would feel much better if you did?
I'm sure of it.
............................................................................
......................
Is it the tv? Or is it that they sense your disapproval?
============================
I believe the tv is partly to blame for the irritableness and short -tempers
around here. I have seen it over and over again with my kids and myself.
I've seen it when I wasn't looking for it. My experience with my children
is that when they spent several hours a day sitting in front of the tv to
watch a movie or whatever, they end up with excess energy and are also much
more irritable. I don't think they are sniping at each other because I let
them watch tv when I didn't want to.
............................................................................
...................
Are you actually *with* your kids while they are doing things that
interest them? Are you content just being with them doing whatever they
like to do (even if its tv)? Or are you using the time that they are
occupied to "get things done". If you are using that time to "Get things
done", they are going to drop what they are doing to get your
attention...even if you're only MIA for 10 minutes. Its the nature of the
age.
===============================
I watch things with them often, but not all of the time. Sometimes I wash
dishes or cook dinner. Sometimes I sit in the same room and read the posts
on this list. Other times I sit down with them and knit or nurse the baby,
or just watch with them. Since the baby doesn't really watch much yet, I am
often playing with him.
............................................................................
.....................
When you have children so young, arriving at a 'place of peace" does not
mean that you get time to yourself :o).
=================
I've noticed! LOL No, really, though, when I say a "place of peace" I just
mean that I want people to use civil tones around here and for there to be
less fighting and hollering. I realize that it may take awhile. I'm just
tired. I also wish I could stay calmer in the storm.
............................................................................
.....................
And having "peace" starts with your own state of mind. You are having
trouble letting go of controls to begin with. That is creating a conflict
for your state of mind. I suspect a lot of this follows from that conflict.
======================
I think this is pretty accurate for me. I keep trying to meditate and use
affirmations. I'm terrible at it. I feel WAY behind the eight-ball, so to
speak. If only things would stay calm for a few days and let me refresh
myself. If only...
............................................................................
......................
with you (unless there are circumstances that I missed somewhere). There is
no reason why you need to do that to yourself.
===========================
I have no choice. Nobody here to leave them with, and no money for a sitter
(or for the groceries for that matter--I think I overdrew my account
accidently!) They are pretty well-behaved in grocery stores actually. We
have fun. They ask for alot, but don't pitch fits when I do have to say no.
Occasionally the three year old will cause trouble by not coming along with
me or by standing up in the cart if I insist she ride there if she's
misbehaving, but usually people compliment me on what "well-behaved" or
"nice" children I have. This happens most places we go, actually.
............................................................................
.....................
Is there a reason why the 3 yo couldn't watch the movie while you did
things with the baby and 4 year old? Honestly, it really sounds as if they
are testing you to see if you are really going to let *them* make the
choices.
===================
The movie wasn't the issue for the 3 yo. She had already started playing
with her dollies more than she was watching. The transition was what got
her going. Even if she really wanted to watch the movie, I wouldn't have
let her watch it alone. It was Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I was
going to watch it after they were asleep, but they asked me to watch it with
me, and I thought it would be fun, but the baby was putting the nix on that
plan by standing in front of the screen, pulling hair and throwing blocks.
I couldn't let the 3 yo watch without me there close by, so I suggested
something else to do and we'd try the movie again later when baby was
asleep.
............................................................................
.....................
Again, your disapproval of their choices comes through loud and clear.
You are also still doling out the food in quantities that you decide on, and
asking them to "wait until dinner".
====================
I only ASKED if they could wait, because I was in the middle of making them
something they asked me to make. They didn't seem to mind. I was fully
prepared to give them the red vines if they still wanted it then. I was
very conscious of that possibility when I asked.
............................................................................
.....................
You are upset because things are "going to waste" and "biting your toungue"
at your kids while you describe a piece of fruit as "beautiful and crispy".
And you ate the fruit even though you weren't hungry. That was your choice
based on your ideas of the "Right way to handle leftover food".
=====================
It does bother me when I prepare food that someone has asked to prepare and
it just sits there uneaten or with a single bite taken out. I ate the fruit
because I was already overwhelmed with things to do and the baby was wanting
to nurse and I didn't have the time or lemon on hand to do something else (I
actually considered saving them just as you have described.). I mentioned
the apple as being crisp and beautiful because sometimes my 4 yo won't eat
an apple if it's grainy or doesn't look just right. My point was that it
was just how she normally likes it.
............................................................................
....................
I know that you are thinking of the money it takes to buy the food you
have, and how much could be saved if things weren't wasted. But when it
comes right down to it....an apple has become a higher priority than the
kids.
===========================
This is too simplistic. The apple hasn't become more important than my
kids. It wouldn't have mattered what food it was, a bowl of ice cream or
some cookies and milk or broccolli and dip or apples, I would still have
been equally annoyed if she asked and I prepared and served and she decided
she was too full and then 20 minutes later asked me for something else. She
rejected the apple and that did bother me, yes, but I was also bothered by
the seeming onslaught of demands and my inability to do anything that
satisfied them, no matter how I tried. It seems to me that my children are
becoming more dissatisfied rather than less so as I pull away limits. I
really do want to give them more choice and I want to accept their choices
with equal grace, but I don't want to be around demanding children who can't
be pleased. I'm very frustrated and afraid to take it any further than I
have by letting them have total access--which would be very impractical with
a one year old running around too.
~Andrea
............................................................................
......................
possible to get her involved in something she likes rather than "remove
her". Can she take a warm bath? Do they all have to play together?
=============================
Oh, this is EXACTLY what I try to to do for her. Sometimes she is
interested in another activity away from her sister, but lately she more
often just kicks her heel down over and over, grunts, throws things and
screams "NO!" at me when I make suggestions or offer somethign soothing. I
have to just leave her alone for awhile when she does that, and eventually,
sometimes sooner, sometimes much later she comes around.
............................................................................
.........................
Many 1 year olds pull hair. Maybe find something similar for him to pull
on?
============================
I realize that 1 year olds do this, although he is the first of my 4 to bite
as well. I know it's normal and try to help the girls keep safe from him
and I distract him from it all the time. He mostly does it when he is
frustrated, like when he wants to knock down their creations and they won't
let him. I either have them go where he can't bother him, or sometimes I
just carry him in on my back, which he likes. The main reason I mentioned
his hair pulling and biting and such, is because it is part of the whole
chaos around here. It isn't that I don't expect it from
him.........................................................................
..................
Your disapproval of tv first thing in the morning is very clear from your
post, and I'm sure your kids are aware of it too.
========================
Yes, they know that I don't like the noise of the tv first thing in the
morning and they know I don't like the tv on as much as it's been on lately
either. They also know I don't care for watching the same DVD's over and
over and over again, which is what happens here because we can't get any
network tv here and can't afford cable. We get our DVD's from the library
and they trickle in a few each week I put 100 holds on titles. It's
annoying to me to listen to the same theme songs and such over and over.
Are you saying that my kids are asking for tv because it annoys me? I don't
think this is the case.
............................................................................
...................
Why do they have to do other things. Can't they watch tv if they want?
======================
They don't HAVE to do other things. They usually enjoy doing other things.
They have been watching ALOT of tv lately. I'm sick of it, personally and
wish they wanted to do some crafts with me or go to the beach. Watching the
same shows over and over again is really boring to me, and, YES, I'm
dissappointed that they'd rather do that than something more interactive
with me.
............................................................................
......................
Why does tv affect you this way? It is clear that you do not like tv, but
have you ever thought about why? Are you sure that your reasons for the
dislike are really valid?
=======================
I do like tv. I love to watch Survivor. I watched so many movies in my
life that it is rare to find one I haven't seen at the video store. I just
don't really like it to be on during the day so much. I have thought about
why. I like to hear birds outside the window. I like to hear my own
thoughts or to listen to music sometimes. I like the quiet. I also like to
talk and to listen to my children talk, which they don't do much when the tv
is on. I've always been this way, not just since my kids were born. When I
was in the Air Force and had to live in a dorm with a roomate, I hated when
she'd get home before me and turn her tv on and leave it on until she either
went out or to bed. She wouldn't turn it off even if I asked, so I would
find somewhere else to be. (I eventually requested to be moved to another
room.) When I was dating my first husband, he kept the tv on low or muted
and tuned to the cartoon channel for ambiance. Ugh. I hated that. Even
when it was muted, I hated the visual "noise." I just don't like the tv on
very much.
............................................................................
.......................
Is it possible you are setting up a power struggle with the kids because
although you haven't said no, you would feel much better if you did?
I'm sure of it.
............................................................................
......................
Is it the tv? Or is it that they sense your disapproval?
============================
I believe the tv is partly to blame for the irritableness and short -tempers
around here. I have seen it over and over again with my kids and myself.
I've seen it when I wasn't looking for it. My experience with my children
is that when they spent several hours a day sitting in front of the tv to
watch a movie or whatever, they end up with excess energy and are also much
more irritable. I don't think they are sniping at each other because I let
them watch tv when I didn't want to.
............................................................................
...................
Are you actually *with* your kids while they are doing things that
interest them? Are you content just being with them doing whatever they
like to do (even if its tv)? Or are you using the time that they are
occupied to "get things done". If you are using that time to "Get things
done", they are going to drop what they are doing to get your
attention...even if you're only MIA for 10 minutes. Its the nature of the
age.
===============================
I watch things with them often, but not all of the time. Sometimes I wash
dishes or cook dinner. Sometimes I sit in the same room and read the posts
on this list. Other times I sit down with them and knit or nurse the baby,
or just watch with them. Since the baby doesn't really watch much yet, I am
often playing with him.
............................................................................
.....................
When you have children so young, arriving at a 'place of peace" does not
mean that you get time to yourself :o).
=================
I've noticed! LOL No, really, though, when I say a "place of peace" I just
mean that I want people to use civil tones around here and for there to be
less fighting and hollering. I realize that it may take awhile. I'm just
tired. I also wish I could stay calmer in the storm.
............................................................................
.....................
And having "peace" starts with your own state of mind. You are having
trouble letting go of controls to begin with. That is creating a conflict
for your state of mind. I suspect a lot of this follows from that conflict.
======================
I think this is pretty accurate for me. I keep trying to meditate and use
affirmations. I'm terrible at it. I feel WAY behind the eight-ball, so to
speak. If only things would stay calm for a few days and let me refresh
myself. If only...
............................................................................
......................
>>Yesterday we went shopping. <<Big mistake. There is no reason why you should take 3 young kids shopping
with you (unless there are circumstances that I missed somewhere). There is
no reason why you need to do that to yourself.
===========================
I have no choice. Nobody here to leave them with, and no money for a sitter
(or for the groceries for that matter--I think I overdrew my account
accidently!) They are pretty well-behaved in grocery stores actually. We
have fun. They ask for alot, but don't pitch fits when I do have to say no.
Occasionally the three year old will cause trouble by not coming along with
me or by standing up in the cart if I insist she ride there if she's
misbehaving, but usually people compliment me on what "well-behaved" or
"nice" children I have. This happens most places we go, actually.
............................................................................
.....................
Is there a reason why the 3 yo couldn't watch the movie while you did
things with the baby and 4 year old? Honestly, it really sounds as if they
are testing you to see if you are really going to let *them* make the
choices.
===================
The movie wasn't the issue for the 3 yo. She had already started playing
with her dollies more than she was watching. The transition was what got
her going. Even if she really wanted to watch the movie, I wouldn't have
let her watch it alone. It was Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I was
going to watch it after they were asleep, but they asked me to watch it with
me, and I thought it would be fun, but the baby was putting the nix on that
plan by standing in front of the screen, pulling hair and throwing blocks.
I couldn't let the 3 yo watch without me there close by, so I suggested
something else to do and we'd try the movie again later when baby was
asleep.
............................................................................
.....................
Again, your disapproval of their choices comes through loud and clear.
You are also still doling out the food in quantities that you decide on, and
asking them to "wait until dinner".
====================
I only ASKED if they could wait, because I was in the middle of making them
something they asked me to make. They didn't seem to mind. I was fully
prepared to give them the red vines if they still wanted it then. I was
very conscious of that possibility when I asked.
............................................................................
.....................
You are upset because things are "going to waste" and "biting your toungue"
at your kids while you describe a piece of fruit as "beautiful and crispy".
And you ate the fruit even though you weren't hungry. That was your choice
based on your ideas of the "Right way to handle leftover food".
=====================
It does bother me when I prepare food that someone has asked to prepare and
it just sits there uneaten or with a single bite taken out. I ate the fruit
because I was already overwhelmed with things to do and the baby was wanting
to nurse and I didn't have the time or lemon on hand to do something else (I
actually considered saving them just as you have described.). I mentioned
the apple as being crisp and beautiful because sometimes my 4 yo won't eat
an apple if it's grainy or doesn't look just right. My point was that it
was just how she normally likes it.
............................................................................
....................
I know that you are thinking of the money it takes to buy the food you
have, and how much could be saved if things weren't wasted. But when it
comes right down to it....an apple has become a higher priority than the
kids.
===========================
This is too simplistic. The apple hasn't become more important than my
kids. It wouldn't have mattered what food it was, a bowl of ice cream or
some cookies and milk or broccolli and dip or apples, I would still have
been equally annoyed if she asked and I prepared and served and she decided
she was too full and then 20 minutes later asked me for something else. She
rejected the apple and that did bother me, yes, but I was also bothered by
the seeming onslaught of demands and my inability to do anything that
satisfied them, no matter how I tried. It seems to me that my children are
becoming more dissatisfied rather than less so as I pull away limits. I
really do want to give them more choice and I want to accept their choices
with equal grace, but I don't want to be around demanding children who can't
be pleased. I'm very frustrated and afraid to take it any further than I
have by letting them have total access--which would be very impractical with
a one year old running around too.
~Andrea
............................................................................
......................
----- Original Message -----
From: "Have a Nice Day!" <litlrooh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
> I understand your need to explain it all, it sounds very chaotic and your
post conveys your frustration. But it might be easier to try and sum up the
specific problems in order to arrive at some solutions.
>
> It sounds like the two major problems in your post are about TV and Food.
>
> See below.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrea Burlingame
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 11:35 AM
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
>
>
> >>They hit and kick each other. The 3yo does this for no apparent
reason. If I remove her from the scene, she yells screams and stomps her
feet andthen when she finally calms down 15-20 minutes later and lets me
hold her and care for her a bit, she goes right back in and starts bugging
someone. <<
>
> Its good to remove her from the situation but at the age of 3, is it
possible to get her involved in something she likes rather than "remove
her". Can she take a warm bath? Do they all have to play together?
>
>
> >>>The baby (1yo) pulls everyones hair and scratches and bites and
pinches when he is thwarted in any way (and sometimes for no apparent reason
he'll just run over and hurt one of the girls when they are watching
something on tv)<<<
> Many 1 year olds pull hair. Maybe find something similar for him to
pull on?
>
>
> >>Also, they want to watch tv (dvd's in our case, since we can't get tv
here and can't afford cable) first thing in the morning, before the sleep is
rubbed out of their eyes,<<
>
> Your disapproval of tv first thing in the morning is very clear from
your post, and I'm sure your kids are aware of it too.
>
> >>and then ask for it every hour or more all day long, even when I have
other things to do with them. <<
>
> Why do they have to do other things. Can't they watch tv if they want?
>
>
> >>I haven't been saying no except for when I just don't want to hear and
see the blasted thing anymore. I don't really like the tv on in the
daytime. It literally drones in my ears and I find it very distracting and
I start to feel depressed when it's on as much as it's been on lately. If
it were up to me, we wouldn't have one. <<
>
> Why does tv affect you this way? It is clear that you do not like tv,
but have you ever thought about why? Are you sure that your reasons for the
dislike are really valid?
>
> Is it possible you are setting up a power struggle with the kids because
although you haven't said no, you would feel much better if you did?
>
> >>Plus, my kids are snippier and grumpier with alot of tv. <<
>
>
> Is it the tv? Or is it that they sense your disapproval?
>
>
> >>They are also more "wired", literally bouncing off the walls after a
long session. I've seen it before when I've eased up, and now I've been
living with since June. I keep hoping that they will get their fill and not
be so obsessed with watching it, but I'm really starting to lose it.<<
>
>
> But if you keep hoping things will change, then you aren't really giving
them the control. You're giving them a reprieve from the status quo. They
probably know that. Maybe you need to come to terms with the idea that tv
is ok, and that if they are happy watching tv right now and you don't like
tv, then you can be happy finding something else to do, albeit with them.
And it would probably have to be something you can put down easily.
>
>
> >>With 3 little ones, there is constantly something going on that needs
my immediate attention.<<
>
> I'm absolutely sure you are right about that.
>
>
> >>(Since I sat down in desperation to write this, I've stopped to
mediate a fight twice, got a snack for someone 3 times, kissed an "owie"
once, cleaned up an accident the 3 yo had, got the baby away from the
hamsters once and removed him from the girls' room just now--all in a space
of what? Maybe 10-15 minutes. Argh!) How do you get to a place of peace!?
I swear I've been trying, but I keep failing miserably!<<
>
> Are you actually *with* your kids while they are doing things that
interest them? Are you content just being with them doing whatever they
like to do (even if its tv)? Or are you using the time that they are
occupied to "get things done". If you are using that time to "Get things
done", they are going to drop what they are doing to get your
attention...even if you're only MIA for 10 minutes. Its the nature of the
age.
> When you have children so young, arriving at a 'place of peace" does not
mean that you get time to yourself :o).
>
> And having "peace" starts with your own state of mind. You are having
trouble letting go of controls to begin with. That is creating a conflict
for your state of mind. I suspect a lot of this follows from that conflict.
>
>
> >>Yesterday we went shopping. <<
>
> Big mistake. There is no reason why you should take 3 young kids
shopping with you (unless there are circumstances that I missed somewhere).
There is no reason why you need to do that to yourself.
>
>
>
>
> >> They were happy. They ate a red vine on the way home and then I
asked them to wait for more, since I was making dinner (Mac and Cheese,
which they had been asking me for all day.) Fine. One ate most of her
dinner and the other ate about half of a small bowl. Said she was full.
Then they wanted ice cream. I didn't say a word about being full, but got
them each a little bowl of ice cream. They also ate another red vine. We
tried to watch a movie at their request (they'd already watched 3 that day),
but the baby wouldn't let us and it was getting late, so we went to feed and
play with the hamsters. I suggested watching the movie later the next day,
and 4 yo was fine, but 3 yo balked, even though she wasn't really watching
the show anyway. <<
>
> Is there a reason why the 3 yo couldn't watch the movie while you did
things with the baby and 4 year old? Honestly, it really sounds as if they
are testing you to see if you are really going to let *them* make the
choices.
>
>
> This morning I got up at 7:30 and everyone else followed shortly
afterward. I am usually very cheerful in the morning, hoping for and ready
for a happy day, and this day was no different. I gave everyone hugs and
asked them how they slept. I asked everyone if they were hungry. They
wanted Frosted Flakes. I poured them each a bowl and afterward offered some
peanut butter in a spoon (something they like), because in the past a simple
bowl of cereal has preceded grumpiness and them being hungry very shortly
after eating. 4yo didn't want any, but 3yo and 1yo ate a little. Then
they all wanted a movie, even though I had offered both the beach and to
make plaster of paris creatures using balloons and then painting them with
acrylic paint. They also ate red vines. My three year old asked for her
6th red vine and I suggested that we had some other snacks too. Would she
like an apple or some cheese? 4 yo squeals, "Yes! and apple!and some
chocolate bears!" 3 yo screams,!
> "NO and stomps her feet and crosses her arms and demands red vines." I
gave her another red vine, cored and sliced and apple and gave everyone some
bears. 4 yo says she doesn't have enough bears even before eating one. I
told her that if she was still hungry afterward and wanted more, she could
have some. I started cleaning up the very messy kitchen that didn't get
cleaned the night before. Before I could even get the dish water started, 4
yo says she is full and leaves the table full of uneaten apple
wedges--beautiful, crispy, tart-sweet Braeburns that she used to love. I
bite my tongue and ate them myself even though I'm not hungry. I also
peeled one wedge and gave it to the baby. I hate to see them turn brown
and go to waste. Then, about 20 minutes later, 4 yo comes up to me and says
she's hungry. She asked me for chocolate bears. 3 yo asked for more red
vines. They have been fighting and whining and screaming at each other and
me all morning. I said no to!
> more bears and vines and 3 yo started screaming at me and stomping he
> r feet. I held her firmly by the arms and said, "Enough! I don't like to
be screamed at." She started crying and stomping her feet and finally went
off to play.<<<
>
> Again, your disapproval of their choices comes through loud and clear.
You are also still doling out the food in quantities that you decide on, and
asking them to "wait until dinner". You are upset because things are "going
to waste" and "biting your toungue" at your kids while you describe a piece
of fruit as "beautiful and crispy". And you ate the fruit even though you
weren't hungry. That was your choice based on your ideas of the "Right way
to handle leftover food". I know that you are thinking of the money it
takes to buy the food you have, and how much could be saved if things
weren't wasted. But when it comes right down to it....an apple has become
a higher priority than the kids.
>
> If they don't eat all the apple wedges, sprinkle them with lemon juice
and put them in a zip lock bag. They won't turn brown then. Or, cook them
down and make applesauce or compote out of them.
> Can you just put all the food where they can freely access it? And then
just let them pick and choose what they want in whatever quantity they want.
That way you don't have to decide how much they should have of what. They
can decide for themselves. Of course, then you will have to deal with the
same problem I have....keeping enough around so that they aren't hording it
:o).
>
> It leaves the kitchen a bit of a mess, for sure. And you'll have to
deal with your feelings of things "going to waste". But the trade off is
that they will learn how to eat in a way that satisfies their hunger,
without attatching any particular signigicance to food.
>
>
> >> It seems like the more I freedom I give, the ruder they get with me
and each other. <<
>
> Are you really giving them freedom? Or are you giving them the illusion
of freedom while you monitor everything they do and hope they change? It
sounds like you are still holding on to your idea of "the way things should
be" and hoping that by letting go of controls, they'll just naturally
gravitate toward what you believe.
>
> If you are really going to let go of controls, you have to let them
develop their own...and they may not be the same as yours.
>
> Kristen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/21/2004 2:45:57 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
litlrooh@... writes:
with you (unless there are circumstances that I missed somewhere). There is
no reason why you need to do that to yourself
--------
Some of our finest memories are all three kids and me. We'd take two carts
sometimes, two riding in one and the baaby in the baby seat of the
grocery-intended cart. Or kids in the big basket of two, baby in the abby seat, and kids
would sort groceries into where they were. Eggs or fragile things went in the
extra baby seat. I'd pull one and push one and we'd take our time, and talk,
and joke, and sing.
=\=It sounds like you are still holding on to your idea of "the way things
should be" and hoping that by letting go of controls, they'll just naturally
gravitate toward what you believe.
=\=
In case that idea rang true, here's something related enough to help, about
looking for the wrong thing. It's about unschooling, not about food, but if
it ought to transfer.
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
litlrooh@... writes:
>>Yesterday we went shopping. <<Big mistake. There is no reason why you should take 3 young kids shopping
with you (unless there are circumstances that I missed somewhere). There is
no reason why you need to do that to yourself
--------
Some of our finest memories are all three kids and me. We'd take two carts
sometimes, two riding in one and the baaby in the baby seat of the
grocery-intended cart. Or kids in the big basket of two, baby in the abby seat, and kids
would sort groceries into where they were. Eggs or fragile things went in the
extra baby seat. I'd pull one and push one and we'd take our time, and talk,
and joke, and sing.
=\=It sounds like you are still holding on to your idea of "the way things
should be" and hoping that by letting go of controls, they'll just naturally
gravitate toward what you believe.
=\=
In case that idea rang true, here's something related enough to help, about
looking for the wrong thing. It's about unschooling, not about food, but if
it ought to transfer.
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/21/2004 4:26:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
aburlingame@... writes:
Are you saying that my kids are asking for tv because it annoys me? I don't
think this is the case.
--------------
I don't think anyone was suggesting that, but if you're being cranky and
critical they'll feel it.
-=-Watching the same shows over and over again is really boring to me-=-
Then don't watch them with them every time.
Will you read a book you've read before? Listen to music you've heard
before? It's no different. There is MORE input in a movie than either a book or a
recording, so if they like it and really want to process and know it all, they
will watch it over and over before they know all the lines and the songs.
That's studying <g>.
-=-and, YES, I'm
dissappointed that they'd rather do that than something more interactive
with me.
-=-
I used to be disappointed if Kirby wasn't interested in something I was
interested in, but I'm glad I got over it, because honestly it was selfish on my
part, and a kind of distracted immaturity. Everything went better when I
learned how to follow his interests, and find things he wanted to do. When he was
excited, I was excited. When I was sad, and he was sad, there was just a big
wad of sadness.
-=-I believe the tv is partly to blame for the irritableness and short
-tempers
around here.-=-
I think if you have bad associations with a former roommate and ex husband
you should get through and over those issues so they don't affect your children.
That might sound harsh, but really... if you're outnumbered and haven't
offered a more enticing alternative, they want to watch TV at their house. Maybe
you can get a walkman and listen to birdsons or soothing music with
headphones. If they want you they can come tug your pants if you don't see them. You
would hear them call you over white-noise tapes or soothing tapes.
-=-This is too simplistic. The apple hasn't become more important than my
kids. It wouldn't have mattered what food it was, a bowl of ice cream or
some cookies and milk or broccolli and dip or apples, I would still have
been equally annoyed if she asked and I prepared and served and she decided
she was too full and then 20 minutes later asked me for something else. -=-
You need to get over that, then.
It used to really bother my husband if he made food and people din't like it.
But he was making things HE liked, and giving people big servings. He got
over it and everything's better. What he does now is announce if food's ready,
wait a while, and pack up leftovers into individual packages. If it's not
eating in the next day or so he takes them to work for lunches. I tend to only
make what i know someone wants or likes. Kirby doesn't like pork, so we have
it when he's not home. Holly likes spinach. The boys don't. If it's just
me, Keith and Holly, we have spinach merrily together!
We had to get loose, flexible, expecting happiness.
-= It seems to me that my children are
becoming more dissatisfied rather than less so as I pull away limits. I
really do want to give them more choice and I want to accept their choices
with equal grace, but I don't want to be around demanding children who can't
be pleased. -=-
Don't do it if it's not working.
You might do better with the rules. If you don't want to change or you don't
think it will work, change course. We can't guarantee you anything. We're
offering options, but you don't have to choose any of them at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aburlingame@... writes:
Are you saying that my kids are asking for tv because it annoys me? I don't
think this is the case.
--------------
I don't think anyone was suggesting that, but if you're being cranky and
critical they'll feel it.
-=-Watching the same shows over and over again is really boring to me-=-
Then don't watch them with them every time.
Will you read a book you've read before? Listen to music you've heard
before? It's no different. There is MORE input in a movie than either a book or a
recording, so if they like it and really want to process and know it all, they
will watch it over and over before they know all the lines and the songs.
That's studying <g>.
-=-and, YES, I'm
dissappointed that they'd rather do that than something more interactive
with me.
-=-
I used to be disappointed if Kirby wasn't interested in something I was
interested in, but I'm glad I got over it, because honestly it was selfish on my
part, and a kind of distracted immaturity. Everything went better when I
learned how to follow his interests, and find things he wanted to do. When he was
excited, I was excited. When I was sad, and he was sad, there was just a big
wad of sadness.
-=-I believe the tv is partly to blame for the irritableness and short
-tempers
around here.-=-
I think if you have bad associations with a former roommate and ex husband
you should get through and over those issues so they don't affect your children.
That might sound harsh, but really... if you're outnumbered and haven't
offered a more enticing alternative, they want to watch TV at their house. Maybe
you can get a walkman and listen to birdsons or soothing music with
headphones. If they want you they can come tug your pants if you don't see them. You
would hear them call you over white-noise tapes or soothing tapes.
-=-This is too simplistic. The apple hasn't become more important than my
kids. It wouldn't have mattered what food it was, a bowl of ice cream or
some cookies and milk or broccolli and dip or apples, I would still have
been equally annoyed if she asked and I prepared and served and she decided
she was too full and then 20 minutes later asked me for something else. -=-
You need to get over that, then.
It used to really bother my husband if he made food and people din't like it.
But he was making things HE liked, and giving people big servings. He got
over it and everything's better. What he does now is announce if food's ready,
wait a while, and pack up leftovers into individual packages. If it's not
eating in the next day or so he takes them to work for lunches. I tend to only
make what i know someone wants or likes. Kirby doesn't like pork, so we have
it when he's not home. Holly likes spinach. The boys don't. If it's just
me, Keith and Holly, we have spinach merrily together!
We had to get loose, flexible, expecting happiness.
-= It seems to me that my children are
becoming more dissatisfied rather than less so as I pull away limits. I
really do want to give them more choice and I want to accept their choices
with equal grace, but I don't want to be around demanding children who can't
be pleased. -=-
Don't do it if it's not working.
You might do better with the rules. If you don't want to change or you don't
think it will work, change course. We can't guarantee you anything. We're
offering options, but you don't have to choose any of them at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
Are you saying that my kids are asking for tv because it annoys me? I don't
think this is the case.
Oh, no, of course not. I was thinking that if they sense your disapproval, then they too are going to be conflicted, and are not really making choices of their own then. I was thinking that maybe it was prolonging their need to 'test boundaries'. Just a thought though.
But I also wonder if that isn't the case with most of the things you are finding frustrating.
It is really hard to have kids the ages that yours are. Mine were spaced 3 years apart, which made it a *little* easier, though I just had different challenges. What I have found over the years with all ages so far, is that its easier to set things up to avoid a problem (like the big platter with food, instead of individual servings, which I hadn't thought of) than it is to treat the problem after there is one.
Does that make sense?
The other thing I have found to really help me is to ask myself how important it really truly is, and whether or not I would try to control these things when they are 20.
Kristen
think this is the case.
Oh, no, of course not. I was thinking that if they sense your disapproval, then they too are going to be conflicted, and are not really making choices of their own then. I was thinking that maybe it was prolonging their need to 'test boundaries'. Just a thought though.
But I also wonder if that isn't the case with most of the things you are finding frustrating.
It is really hard to have kids the ages that yours are. Mine were spaced 3 years apart, which made it a *little* easier, though I just had different challenges. What I have found over the years with all ages so far, is that its easier to set things up to avoid a problem (like the big platter with food, instead of individual servings, which I hadn't thought of) than it is to treat the problem after there is one.
Does that make sense?
The other thing I have found to really help me is to ask myself how important it really truly is, and whether or not I would try to control these things when they are 20.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrea Burlingame
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
Its good to remove her from the situation but at the age of 3, is it
possible to get her involved in something she likes rather than "remove
her". Can she take a warm bath? Do they all have to play together?
=============================
Oh, this is EXACTLY what I try to to do for her. Sometimes she is
interested in another activity away from her sister, but lately she more
often just kicks her heel down over and over, grunts, throws things and
screams "NO!" at me when I make suggestions or offer somethign soothing. I
have to just leave her alone for awhile when she does that, and eventually,
sometimes sooner, sometimes much later she comes around.
............................................................................
.........................
Many 1 year olds pull hair. Maybe find something similar for him to pull
on?
============================
I realize that 1 year olds do this, although he is the first of my 4 to bite
as well. I know it's normal and try to help the girls keep safe from him
and I distract him from it all the time. He mostly does it when he is
frustrated, like when he wants to knock down their creations and they won't
let him. I either have them go where he can't bother him, or sometimes I
just carry him in on my back, which he likes. The main reason I mentioned
his hair pulling and biting and such, is because it is part of the whole
chaos around here. It isn't that I don't expect it from
him.........................................................................
..................
Your disapproval of tv first thing in the morning is very clear from your
post, and I'm sure your kids are aware of it too.
========================
Yes, they know that I don't like the noise of the tv first thing in the
morning and they know I don't like the tv on as much as it's been on lately
either. They also know I don't care for watching the same DVD's over and
over and over again, which is what happens here because we can't get any
network tv here and can't afford cable. We get our DVD's from the library
and they trickle in a few each week I put 100 holds on titles. It's
annoying to me to listen to the same theme songs and such over and over.
Are you saying that my kids are asking for tv because it annoys me? I don't
think this is the case.
............................................................................
...................
Why do they have to do other things. Can't they watch tv if they want?
======================
They don't HAVE to do other things. They usually enjoy doing other things.
They have been watching ALOT of tv lately. I'm sick of it, personally and
wish they wanted to do some crafts with me or go to the beach. Watching the
same shows over and over again is really boring to me, and, YES, I'm
dissappointed that they'd rather do that than something more interactive
with me.
............................................................................
......................
Why does tv affect you this way? It is clear that you do not like tv, but
have you ever thought about why? Are you sure that your reasons for the
dislike are really valid?
=======================
I do like tv. I love to watch Survivor. I watched so many movies in my
life that it is rare to find one I haven't seen at the video store. I just
don't really like it to be on during the day so much. I have thought about
why. I like to hear birds outside the window. I like to hear my own
thoughts or to listen to music sometimes. I like the quiet. I also like to
talk and to listen to my children talk, which they don't do much when the tv
is on. I've always been this way, not just since my kids were born. When I
was in the Air Force and had to live in a dorm with a roomate, I hated when
she'd get home before me and turn her tv on and leave it on until she either
went out or to bed. She wouldn't turn it off even if I asked, so I would
find somewhere else to be. (I eventually requested to be moved to another
room.) When I was dating my first husband, he kept the tv on low or muted
and tuned to the cartoon channel for ambiance. Ugh. I hated that. Even
when it was muted, I hated the visual "noise." I just don't like the tv on
very much.
............................................................................
.......................
Is it possible you are setting up a power struggle with the kids because
although you haven't said no, you would feel much better if you did?
I'm sure of it.
............................................................................
......................
Is it the tv? Or is it that they sense your disapproval?
============================
I believe the tv is partly to blame for the irritableness and short -tempers
around here. I have seen it over and over again with my kids and myself.
I've seen it when I wasn't looking for it. My experience with my children
is that when they spent several hours a day sitting in front of the tv to
watch a movie or whatever, they end up with excess energy and are also much
more irritable. I don't think they are sniping at each other because I let
them watch tv when I didn't want to.
............................................................................
...................
Are you actually *with* your kids while they are doing things that
interest them? Are you content just being with them doing whatever they
like to do (even if its tv)? Or are you using the time that they are
occupied to "get things done". If you are using that time to "Get things
done", they are going to drop what they are doing to get your
attention...even if you're only MIA for 10 minutes. Its the nature of the
age.
===============================
I watch things with them often, but not all of the time. Sometimes I wash
dishes or cook dinner. Sometimes I sit in the same room and read the posts
on this list. Other times I sit down with them and knit or nurse the baby,
or just watch with them. Since the baby doesn't really watch much yet, I am
often playing with him.
............................................................................
.....................
When you have children so young, arriving at a 'place of peace" does not
mean that you get time to yourself :o).
=================
I've noticed! LOL No, really, though, when I say a "place of peace" I just
mean that I want people to use civil tones around here and for there to be
less fighting and hollering. I realize that it may take awhile. I'm just
tired. I also wish I could stay calmer in the storm.
............................................................................
.....................
And having "peace" starts with your own state of mind. You are having
trouble letting go of controls to begin with. That is creating a conflict
for your state of mind. I suspect a lot of this follows from that conflict.
======================
I think this is pretty accurate for me. I keep trying to meditate and use
affirmations. I'm terrible at it. I feel WAY behind the eight-ball, so to
speak. If only things would stay calm for a few days and let me refresh
myself. If only...
............................................................................
......................
>>Yesterday we went shopping. <<
Big mistake. There is no reason why you should take 3 young kids shopping
with you (unless there are circumstances that I missed somewhere). There is
no reason why you need to do that to yourself.
===========================
I have no choice. Nobody here to leave them with, and no money for a sitter
(or for the groceries for that matter--I think I overdrew my account
accidently!) They are pretty well-behaved in grocery stores actually. We
have fun. They ask for alot, but don't pitch fits when I do have to say no.
Occasionally the three year old will cause trouble by not coming along with
me or by standing up in the cart if I insist she ride there if she's
misbehaving, but usually people compliment me on what "well-behaved" or
"nice" children I have. This happens most places we go, actually.
............................................................................
.....................
Is there a reason why the 3 yo couldn't watch the movie while you did
things with the baby and 4 year old? Honestly, it really sounds as if they
are testing you to see if you are really going to let *them* make the
choices.
===================
The movie wasn't the issue for the 3 yo. She had already started playing
with her dollies more than she was watching. The transition was what got
her going. Even if she really wanted to watch the movie, I wouldn't have
let her watch it alone. It was Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I was
going to watch it after they were asleep, but they asked me to watch it with
me, and I thought it would be fun, but the baby was putting the nix on that
plan by standing in front of the screen, pulling hair and throwing blocks.
I couldn't let the 3 yo watch without me there close by, so I suggested
something else to do and we'd try the movie again later when baby was
asleep.
............................................................................
.....................
Again, your disapproval of their choices comes through loud and clear.
You are also still doling out the food in quantities that you decide on, and
asking them to "wait until dinner".
====================
I only ASKED if they could wait, because I was in the middle of making them
something they asked me to make. They didn't seem to mind. I was fully
prepared to give them the red vines if they still wanted it then. I was
very conscious of that possibility when I asked.
............................................................................
.....................
You are upset because things are "going to waste" and "biting your toungue"
at your kids while you describe a piece of fruit as "beautiful and crispy".
And you ate the fruit even though you weren't hungry. That was your choice
based on your ideas of the "Right way to handle leftover food".
=====================
It does bother me when I prepare food that someone has asked to prepare and
it just sits there uneaten or with a single bite taken out. I ate the fruit
because I was already overwhelmed with things to do and the baby was wanting
to nurse and I didn't have the time or lemon on hand to do something else (I
actually considered saving them just as you have described.). I mentioned
the apple as being crisp and beautiful because sometimes my 4 yo won't eat
an apple if it's grainy or doesn't look just right. My point was that it
was just how she normally likes it.
............................................................................
....................
I know that you are thinking of the money it takes to buy the food you
have, and how much could be saved if things weren't wasted. But when it
comes right down to it....an apple has become a higher priority than the
kids.
===========================
This is too simplistic. The apple hasn't become more important than my
kids. It wouldn't have mattered what food it was, a bowl of ice cream or
some cookies and milk or broccolli and dip or apples, I would still have
been equally annoyed if she asked and I prepared and served and she decided
she was too full and then 20 minutes later asked me for something else. She
rejected the apple and that did bother me, yes, but I was also bothered by
the seeming onslaught of demands and my inability to do anything that
satisfied them, no matter how I tried. It seems to me that my children are
becoming more dissatisfied rather than less so as I pull away limits. I
really do want to give them more choice and I want to accept their choices
with equal grace, but I don't want to be around demanding children who can't
be pleased. I'm very frustrated and afraid to take it any further than I
have by letting them have total access--which would be very impractical with
a one year old running around too.
~Andrea
............................................................................
......................
----- Original Message -----
From: "Have a Nice Day!" <litlrooh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
> I understand your need to explain it all, it sounds very chaotic and your
post conveys your frustration. But it might be easier to try and sum up the
specific problems in order to arrive at some solutions.
>
> It sounds like the two major problems in your post are about TV and Food.
>
> See below.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrea Burlingame
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 11:35 AM
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
>
>
> >>They hit and kick each other. The 3yo does this for no apparent
reason. If I remove her from the scene, she yells screams and stomps her
feet andthen when she finally calms down 15-20 minutes later and lets me
hold her and care for her a bit, she goes right back in and starts bugging
someone. <<
>
> Its good to remove her from the situation but at the age of 3, is it
possible to get her involved in something she likes rather than "remove
her". Can she take a warm bath? Do they all have to play together?
>
>
> >>>The baby (1yo) pulls everyones hair and scratches and bites and
pinches when he is thwarted in any way (and sometimes for no apparent reason
he'll just run over and hurt one of the girls when they are watching
something on tv)<<<
> Many 1 year olds pull hair. Maybe find something similar for him to
pull on?
>
>
> >>Also, they want to watch tv (dvd's in our case, since we can't get tv
here and can't afford cable) first thing in the morning, before the sleep is
rubbed out of their eyes,<<
>
> Your disapproval of tv first thing in the morning is very clear from
your post, and I'm sure your kids are aware of it too.
>
> >>and then ask for it every hour or more all day long, even when I have
other things to do with them. <<
>
> Why do they have to do other things. Can't they watch tv if they want?
>
>
> >>I haven't been saying no except for when I just don't want to hear and
see the blasted thing anymore. I don't really like the tv on in the
daytime. It literally drones in my ears and I find it very distracting and
I start to feel depressed when it's on as much as it's been on lately. If
it were up to me, we wouldn't have one. <<
>
> Why does tv affect you this way? It is clear that you do not like tv,
but have you ever thought about why? Are you sure that your reasons for the
dislike are really valid?
>
> Is it possible you are setting up a power struggle with the kids because
although you haven't said no, you would feel much better if you did?
>
> >>Plus, my kids are snippier and grumpier with alot of tv. <<
>
>
> Is it the tv? Or is it that they sense your disapproval?
>
>
> >>They are also more "wired", literally bouncing off the walls after a
long session. I've seen it before when I've eased up, and now I've been
living with since June. I keep hoping that they will get their fill and not
be so obsessed with watching it, but I'm really starting to lose it.<<
>
>
> But if you keep hoping things will change, then you aren't really giving
them the control. You're giving them a reprieve from the status quo. They
probably know that. Maybe you need to come to terms with the idea that tv
is ok, and that if they are happy watching tv right now and you don't like
tv, then you can be happy finding something else to do, albeit with them.
And it would probably have to be something you can put down easily.
>
>
> >>With 3 little ones, there is constantly something going on that needs
my immediate attention.<<
>
> I'm absolutely sure you are right about that.
>
>
> >>(Since I sat down in desperation to write this, I've stopped to
mediate a fight twice, got a snack for someone 3 times, kissed an "owie"
once, cleaned up an accident the 3 yo had, got the baby away from the
hamsters once and removed him from the girls' room just now--all in a space
of what? Maybe 10-15 minutes. Argh!) How do you get to a place of peace!?
I swear I've been trying, but I keep failing miserably!<<
>
> Are you actually *with* your kids while they are doing things that
interest them? Are you content just being with them doing whatever they
like to do (even if its tv)? Or are you using the time that they are
occupied to "get things done". If you are using that time to "Get things
done", they are going to drop what they are doing to get your
attention...even if you're only MIA for 10 minutes. Its the nature of the
age.
> When you have children so young, arriving at a 'place of peace" does not
mean that you get time to yourself :o).
>
> And having "peace" starts with your own state of mind. You are having
trouble letting go of controls to begin with. That is creating a conflict
for your state of mind. I suspect a lot of this follows from that conflict.
>
>
> >>Yesterday we went shopping. <<
>
> Big mistake. There is no reason why you should take 3 young kids
shopping with you (unless there are circumstances that I missed somewhere).
There is no reason why you need to do that to yourself.
>
>
>
>
> >> They were happy. They ate a red vine on the way home and then I
asked them to wait for more, since I was making dinner (Mac and Cheese,
which they had been asking me for all day.) Fine. One ate most of her
dinner and the other ate about half of a small bowl. Said she was full.
Then they wanted ice cream. I didn't say a word about being full, but got
them each a little bowl of ice cream. They also ate another red vine. We
tried to watch a movie at their request (they'd already watched 3 that day),
but the baby wouldn't let us and it was getting late, so we went to feed and
play with the hamsters. I suggested watching the movie later the next day,
and 4 yo was fine, but 3 yo balked, even though she wasn't really watching
the show anyway. <<
>
> Is there a reason why the 3 yo couldn't watch the movie while you did
things with the baby and 4 year old? Honestly, it really sounds as if they
are testing you to see if you are really going to let *them* make the
choices.
>
>
> This morning I got up at 7:30 and everyone else followed shortly
afterward. I am usually very cheerful in the morning, hoping for and ready
for a happy day, and this day was no different. I gave everyone hugs and
asked them how they slept. I asked everyone if they were hungry. They
wanted Frosted Flakes. I poured them each a bowl and afterward offered some
peanut butter in a spoon (something they like), because in the past a simple
bowl of cereal has preceded grumpiness and them being hungry very shortly
after eating. 4yo didn't want any, but 3yo and 1yo ate a little. Then
they all wanted a movie, even though I had offered both the beach and to
make plaster of paris creatures using balloons and then painting them with
acrylic paint. They also ate red vines. My three year old asked for her
6th red vine and I suggested that we had some other snacks too. Would she
like an apple or some cheese? 4 yo squeals, "Yes! and apple!and some
chocolate bears!" 3 yo screams,!
> "NO and stomps her feet and crosses her arms and demands red vines." I
gave her another red vine, cored and sliced and apple and gave everyone some
bears. 4 yo says she doesn't have enough bears even before eating one. I
told her that if she was still hungry afterward and wanted more, she could
have some. I started cleaning up the very messy kitchen that didn't get
cleaned the night before. Before I could even get the dish water started, 4
yo says she is full and leaves the table full of uneaten apple
wedges--beautiful, crispy, tart-sweet Braeburns that she used to love. I
bite my tongue and ate them myself even though I'm not hungry. I also
peeled one wedge and gave it to the baby. I hate to see them turn brown
and go to waste. Then, about 20 minutes later, 4 yo comes up to me and says
she's hungry. She asked me for chocolate bears. 3 yo asked for more red
vines. They have been fighting and whining and screaming at each other and
me all morning. I said no to!
> more bears and vines and 3 yo started screaming at me and stomping he
> r feet. I held her firmly by the arms and said, "Enough! I don't like to
be screamed at." She started crying and stomping her feet and finally went
off to play.<<<
>
> Again, your disapproval of their choices comes through loud and clear.
You are also still doling out the food in quantities that you decide on, and
asking them to "wait until dinner". You are upset because things are "going
to waste" and "biting your toungue" at your kids while you describe a piece
of fruit as "beautiful and crispy". And you ate the fruit even though you
weren't hungry. That was your choice based on your ideas of the "Right way
to handle leftover food". I know that you are thinking of the money it
takes to buy the food you have, and how much could be saved if things
weren't wasted. But when it comes right down to it....an apple has become
a higher priority than the kids.
>
> If they don't eat all the apple wedges, sprinkle them with lemon juice
and put them in a zip lock bag. They won't turn brown then. Or, cook them
down and make applesauce or compote out of them.
> Can you just put all the food where they can freely access it? And then
just let them pick and choose what they want in whatever quantity they want.
That way you don't have to decide how much they should have of what. They
can decide for themselves. Of course, then you will have to deal with the
same problem I have....keeping enough around so that they aren't hording it
:o).
>
> It leaves the kitchen a bit of a mess, for sure. And you'll have to
deal with your feelings of things "going to waste". But the trade off is
that they will learn how to eat in a way that satisfies their hunger,
without attatching any particular signigicance to food.
>
>
> >> It seems like the more I freedom I give, the ruder they get with me
and each other. <<
>
> Are you really giving them freedom? Or are you giving them the illusion
of freedom while you monitor everything they do and hope they change? It
sounds like you are still holding on to your idea of "the way things should
be" and hoping that by letting go of controls, they'll just naturally
gravitate toward what you believe.
>
> If you are really going to let go of controls, you have to let them
develop their own...and they may not be the same as yours.
>
> Kristen
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrea Burlingame
=============
Don't remove your structuress. Just say yes more.
=============
This is what I've been trying to do. I don't think it would be practical to
just eliminate all of what little structure we have. OMG--total chaos!
Thanks for the link. I've read that one before and will read it again (and
again, I'm sure.)
Also, by structure, do you mean current implied limits? or personal
boundaries? Can you explain this more fully? I'll also check the link
again.
====================
If you find some sing-along videos or other happy kids' shows you can stand
to listen to, just leave them on all the time, then there's no asking.
===================
Ugh...I do this. I'm getting better at tuning it out, but not if they also
bicker most of the day and then come and ask me for more and more in between
bickering. I've been lately considering showing Stella, my very bright 4
yo, how to more fully operate the DVD player so she can just put something
in if she wants to watch. A small part of what's annoying about them
watching is having to set it up so often--usually right when I'm in the
middle of something else.
====================
Maybe unschooling won't work for you. it's hard, but I think in any case in
which a parent can't put the kids' needs first, it's going to be a problem.
Others might disagree with me, but that's what I think.
====================
I can put my kid's needs first. That's what I do daily. I wouldn't be at
home trying so hard if I wasn't putting their needs first. Still, is
watching a tv really a need, beyond the need to choose their own activity?
And, if so, does it always supercede other needs like what seems to be their
need for some structure (4 yo thrives on more structure I notice, though 3
yo chafes a bit under outside limitations), or my need for peace and quiet
or to spend more interactive time with them?
==============
But you're taking about really little kids who might go to school. It's not
an unschooling matter, in several ways, in my opinion.
==============
I have never planned to send my kids to school.
==============
Maybe they're grumpier when you're grumpier, and you're saying it makes you
grumpy, right?
==============
It does make me grumpy, but I don't think I'd be nearly as grumpy if they
weren't also fighting alot and so on. I think it's all feeling a bit
jumbled at this point. I'd be lying if I said that it doesn't bother and
worry me that they watch so much tv. So maybe that's part of why the sound
of tv bothers me, even though I've always detested tv on (and on and on) in
the daytime. Maybe it is all just a vicious cycle. I want out.
=================
Can you get out of the house every day? Can you go to a different park, a
mall, a place with a loading dock and a ramp?
=================
This is one thing that works really well for us, though we don't always get
out everyday. We go to the beach, the park. Thrift stores are fun, because
they can play with the toys. Portland had many more destinations, but we
still do alright. The beach is an endless source of fun for us all.
Depends on weather, money and kids, but we try to get out every day and do
something. Sometimes they just don't want to go--usually the 3 yo is most
resisitant to going to the beach, but she has fun once we get there. But,
yes, going somewhere is a sanity saver for us all.
=================
Learn to calm yourself with deep breathing.
Find some self-talk things (affirmations, some kind of personal
encouragement) to remind yourself why you want to dowhat you want to do.
Fill your head
with the kind of mother you want to be. Try to be with other such mothers
so
you can emulate them.
=================
I'm trying these things. I am not even close to breaking my old habits,
though and still yell. Somedays are MUCH better than others, though, and I
keep thinking I'll be able to turn the corner on calming myself. Sometimes
I'm just too overwhelmed like the last couple of days. I'll start fresh
again tomorrow. Something has to give soon. I really do want to be a
better mother and I do plan to unschool.
Thank you for this list. It inspires me more than I can say. I just wish I
could get to where I want to be faster.
~Andrea
Don't remove your structuress. Just say yes more.
=============
This is what I've been trying to do. I don't think it would be practical to
just eliminate all of what little structure we have. OMG--total chaos!
Thanks for the link. I've read that one before and will read it again (and
again, I'm sure.)
Also, by structure, do you mean current implied limits? or personal
boundaries? Can you explain this more fully? I'll also check the link
again.
====================
If you find some sing-along videos or other happy kids' shows you can stand
to listen to, just leave them on all the time, then there's no asking.
===================
Ugh...I do this. I'm getting better at tuning it out, but not if they also
bicker most of the day and then come and ask me for more and more in between
bickering. I've been lately considering showing Stella, my very bright 4
yo, how to more fully operate the DVD player so she can just put something
in if she wants to watch. A small part of what's annoying about them
watching is having to set it up so often--usually right when I'm in the
middle of something else.
====================
Maybe unschooling won't work for you. it's hard, but I think in any case in
which a parent can't put the kids' needs first, it's going to be a problem.
Others might disagree with me, but that's what I think.
====================
I can put my kid's needs first. That's what I do daily. I wouldn't be at
home trying so hard if I wasn't putting their needs first. Still, is
watching a tv really a need, beyond the need to choose their own activity?
And, if so, does it always supercede other needs like what seems to be their
need for some structure (4 yo thrives on more structure I notice, though 3
yo chafes a bit under outside limitations), or my need for peace and quiet
or to spend more interactive time with them?
==============
But you're taking about really little kids who might go to school. It's not
an unschooling matter, in several ways, in my opinion.
==============
I have never planned to send my kids to school.
==============
Maybe they're grumpier when you're grumpier, and you're saying it makes you
grumpy, right?
==============
It does make me grumpy, but I don't think I'd be nearly as grumpy if they
weren't also fighting alot and so on. I think it's all feeling a bit
jumbled at this point. I'd be lying if I said that it doesn't bother and
worry me that they watch so much tv. So maybe that's part of why the sound
of tv bothers me, even though I've always detested tv on (and on and on) in
the daytime. Maybe it is all just a vicious cycle. I want out.
=================
Can you get out of the house every day? Can you go to a different park, a
mall, a place with a loading dock and a ramp?
=================
This is one thing that works really well for us, though we don't always get
out everyday. We go to the beach, the park. Thrift stores are fun, because
they can play with the toys. Portland had many more destinations, but we
still do alright. The beach is an endless source of fun for us all.
Depends on weather, money and kids, but we try to get out every day and do
something. Sometimes they just don't want to go--usually the 3 yo is most
resisitant to going to the beach, but she has fun once we get there. But,
yes, going somewhere is a sanity saver for us all.
=================
Learn to calm yourself with deep breathing.
Find some self-talk things (affirmations, some kind of personal
encouragement) to remind yourself why you want to dowhat you want to do.
Fill your head
with the kind of mother you want to be. Try to be with other such mothers
so
you can emulate them.
=================
I'm trying these things. I am not even close to breaking my old habits,
though and still yell. Somedays are MUCH better than others, though, and I
keep thinking I'll be able to turn the corner on calming myself. Sometimes
I'm just too overwhelmed like the last couple of days. I'll start fresh
again tomorrow. Something has to give soon. I really do want to be a
better mother and I do plan to unschool.
Thank you for this list. It inspires me more than I can say. I just wish I
could get to where I want to be faster.
~Andrea
Have a Nice Day!
-=-This is too simplistic. The apple hasn't become more important than my
kids. <<<<
I wanted to clarify this. I wasn't saying that in general, food is more important than your kids. I know that isn't true. I was talking about a single instantaneous moment of time. For a single instant (and it happens to everyone!) your values about wasting food became just a little more important than the fact that the kids didn't want to eat it.
Those conflicts between our values/expectations, and the reality of our children is what creates the annoyance we feel, moment by moment.
Its also those conflicts that we need to look at. Where did we get our values? Why do we have this or that expectation? And when we start thinking about where it all came from, and what its all based in, then we can change what our values/expectations are, leading to less annoyances (and more peace of mind).
Does that make sense?
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kids. <<<<
I wanted to clarify this. I wasn't saying that in general, food is more important than your kids. I know that isn't true. I was talking about a single instantaneous moment of time. For a single instant (and it happens to everyone!) your values about wasting food became just a little more important than the fact that the kids didn't want to eat it.
Those conflicts between our values/expectations, and the reality of our children is what creates the annoyance we feel, moment by moment.
Its also those conflicts that we need to look at. Where did we get our values? Why do we have this or that expectation? And when we start thinking about where it all came from, and what its all based in, then we can change what our values/expectations are, leading to less annoyances (and more peace of mind).
Does that make sense?
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
>>Learn to calm yourself with deep breathing. Find some self-talk things(affirmations, some kind of personal encouragement) to remind yourself why
you want to do what you want to do. Fill your head with the kind of mother
you want to be. Try to be with other such mothers so you can emulate
them.<<
My latest one is "I will be rewarded for remaining calm..." Where I would
before whip myself into a frenzy over lost keys, I breathe and repeat and
there they are -- three times this week already! :) "This too shall pass"
"I love my children" ;) "I CAN do this" have all helped at different times.
Find yours, it will get you through the moment :) ~~diana
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8-19-2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/21/2004 5:50:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
aburlingame@... writes:
And, if so, does it always supercede other needs like what seems to be their
need for some structure
------------
I think the slightest whim supercedes a young child's "need for structure,"
when reported by a parent.
Really.
If your child needs structure, she will create it.
Perhaps the structure she wants is to watch that video. <g>
-=-or my need for peace and quiet
or to spend more interactive time with them?
-=-
Your need for peace and quiet was forfeited when you got pregnant. Those
last few months before the baby came were about the last rest before they're
older. Bummer. I can't change it.
Lots of parents do change it but there's a high cost. They lose the
relationship with their child.
You have a need to spend more interactive time with them?
I'd hope you were doing that for their benefit.
You need to propose something they really want to do.
Be fascinating. Be funny. Be surprising.
=\=But you're taking about really little kids who might go to school. It's
not
an unschooling matter, in several ways, in my opinion.
==============
-=-I have never planned to send my kids to school.=\=
But if you DID plan to send them to school, you'd still be where you are now,
with the same situation.
-=- Maybe it is all just a vicious cycle. I want out.-=-
Do you have a charge card? You could move to another continent and never
look back.
I bet you don't want out that badly.
You're where you are by choice. If you waste any energy misguidedly thinking
you have no choice, it's a wste of good martyrdom. You could put them up for
adoption. You could apply for government funding of some kind for daycare
while you went to college (like THAT would give you more free time and peace...)
But you're choosing to be home and take care of your children. You're not
trapped.
See it as a choice and it will give you power. It will make you big and real
to have a choice.
It's how kids become big and real too, ultimately.
-=- Sometimes
I'm just too overwhelmed like the last couple of days. I'll start fresh
again tomorrow. -=-
Why tomorrow? Why not now? The next breath you take, take a deeper breath
than you usually do. Hold it a little longer than you ordinarily would.
Choose to let it out slowly.
http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/HEM154.98/154.98_clmn_unschl.html
Something about new days, and mornings.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aburlingame@... writes:
And, if so, does it always supercede other needs like what seems to be their
need for some structure
------------
I think the slightest whim supercedes a young child's "need for structure,"
when reported by a parent.
Really.
If your child needs structure, she will create it.
Perhaps the structure she wants is to watch that video. <g>
-=-or my need for peace and quiet
or to spend more interactive time with them?
-=-
Your need for peace and quiet was forfeited when you got pregnant. Those
last few months before the baby came were about the last rest before they're
older. Bummer. I can't change it.
Lots of parents do change it but there's a high cost. They lose the
relationship with their child.
You have a need to spend more interactive time with them?
I'd hope you were doing that for their benefit.
You need to propose something they really want to do.
Be fascinating. Be funny. Be surprising.
=\=But you're taking about really little kids who might go to school. It's
not
an unschooling matter, in several ways, in my opinion.
==============
-=-I have never planned to send my kids to school.=\=
But if you DID plan to send them to school, you'd still be where you are now,
with the same situation.
-=- Maybe it is all just a vicious cycle. I want out.-=-
Do you have a charge card? You could move to another continent and never
look back.
I bet you don't want out that badly.
You're where you are by choice. If you waste any energy misguidedly thinking
you have no choice, it's a wste of good martyrdom. You could put them up for
adoption. You could apply for government funding of some kind for daycare
while you went to college (like THAT would give you more free time and peace...)
But you're choosing to be home and take care of your children. You're not
trapped.
See it as a choice and it will give you power. It will make you big and real
to have a choice.
It's how kids become big and real too, ultimately.
-=- Sometimes
I'm just too overwhelmed like the last couple of days. I'll start fresh
again tomorrow. -=-
Why tomorrow? Why not now? The next breath you take, take a deeper breath
than you usually do. Hold it a little longer than you ordinarily would.
Choose to let it out slowly.
http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/HEM154.98/154.98_clmn_unschl.html
Something about new days, and mornings.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrea Burlingame
You have a need to spend more interactive time with them?
I'd hope you were doing that for their benefit.
=========================
I mean as oppossed to sitting around the tv for several hours a day. They'd
love for me to do that. I don't usually. Sometimes I do other things while
they watch tv (though not always.) I didn't mean to say I'd have them do
things with me, interactive or not, that they didn't want to do.
Just wanted to clarify.
To others who have responded to my original posts--thank you. I will
respond as I can...usually can't do much during the day. When I do, there
are even more problems around here than usual. I do appreicate your taking
the time read and then offer me your advice and insights.
~Andrea
I'd hope you were doing that for their benefit.
=========================
I mean as oppossed to sitting around the tv for several hours a day. They'd
love for me to do that. I don't usually. Sometimes I do other things while
they watch tv (though not always.) I didn't mean to say I'd have them do
things with me, interactive or not, that they didn't want to do.
Just wanted to clarify.
To others who have responded to my original posts--thank you. I will
respond as I can...usually can't do much during the day. When I do, there
are even more problems around here than usual. I do appreicate your taking
the time read and then offer me your advice and insights.
~Andrea
Andrea Burlingame
Those conflicts between our values/expectations, and the reality of our
children is what creates the annoyance we feel, moment by moment.
Its also those conflicts that we need to look at. Where did we get our
values? Why do we have this or that expectation? And when we start
thinking about where it all came from, and what its all based in, then we
can change what our values/expectations are, leading to less annoyances (and
more peace of mind).
Does that make sense?
=======================
Yes, it does. I'll give it some more thought, too.
Thanks,
Andrea
children is what creates the annoyance we feel, moment by moment.
Its also those conflicts that we need to look at. Where did we get our
values? Why do we have this or that expectation? And when we start
thinking about where it all came from, and what its all based in, then we
can change what our values/expectations are, leading to less annoyances (and
more peace of mind).
Does that make sense?
=======================
Yes, it does. I'll give it some more thought, too.
Thanks,
Andrea
Andrea Burlingame
My latest one is "I will be rewarded for remaining calm..." Where I would
before whip myself into a frenzy over lost keys, I breathe and repeat and
there they are -- three times this week already! :) "This too shall pass"
"I love my children" ;) "I CAN do this" have all helped at different times.
Find yours, it will get you through the moment :) ~~
==========================
I hope I'll get better at this. I keep working at it. Sometimes I have to
remove myself and go to another room and close the door for a minute. I do
manage to calm down enough to carry on, but I don't always feel any less
aggravated when I think about what aggravated me in the first place. I
have a hard time thinking differently, even when I calm down little. I
don't have time to give myself "more time". Does anyone know what I'm
talking about?
~Andrea
before whip myself into a frenzy over lost keys, I breathe and repeat and
there they are -- three times this week already! :) "This too shall pass"
"I love my children" ;) "I CAN do this" have all helped at different times.
Find yours, it will get you through the moment :) ~~
==========================
I hope I'll get better at this. I keep working at it. Sometimes I have to
remove myself and go to another room and close the door for a minute. I do
manage to calm down enough to carry on, but I don't always feel any less
aggravated when I think about what aggravated me in the first place. I
have a hard time thinking differently, even when I calm down little. I
don't have time to give myself "more time". Does anyone know what I'm
talking about?
~Andrea
----- Original Message -----
From: "diana jenner" <hahamommy@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
> >>Learn to calm yourself with deep breathing. Find some self-talk things
> (affirmations, some kind of personal encouragement) to remind yourself why
> you want to do what you want to do. Fill your head with the kind of
mother
> you want to be. Try to be with other such mothers so you can emulate
> them.<<
>
> My latest one is "I will be rewarded for remaining calm..." Where I would
> before whip myself into a frenzy over lost keys, I breathe and repeat and
> there they are -- three times this week already! :) "This too shall
pass"
> "I love my children" ;) "I CAN do this" have all helped at different
times.
> Find yours, it will get you through the moment :) ~~diana
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8-19-2004
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
velvet jiang
"It seems to me that my children are
becoming more dissatisfied rather than less so as I pull away limits"
i only have one child so i don't know how hard it is with more. i can only
say that my dd when she was younger took her behavior ques from me. when i
was feeling really annoyed, angry, any emotion she would follow suit. so if
you are feeling so upset and frustrated it is easy to see how that could
transfer to the children. i also know that when my dd talks sharply to me if
i listen with an open mind i can hear either me or my dh in her words and
mannerism. i have had to work very hard due to my childhood experiences to
really listen to myself and how i sound because sometimes i'm not even aware
of my sharpness. i don't believe based on my own experience with my family
(parents, siblings) that your children as children can learn the things that
you want them to without you learning them first.
i really sympothize with the way that you are feeling because it is hard to
face these kinds of things about ourself and even harder to change them. i
know from first hand experience how hard it was and still is (close to 12
years working on it) to change the things that are programmed into us from
birth.
velvet
becoming more dissatisfied rather than less so as I pull away limits"
i only have one child so i don't know how hard it is with more. i can only
say that my dd when she was younger took her behavior ques from me. when i
was feeling really annoyed, angry, any emotion she would follow suit. so if
you are feeling so upset and frustrated it is easy to see how that could
transfer to the children. i also know that when my dd talks sharply to me if
i listen with an open mind i can hear either me or my dh in her words and
mannerism. i have had to work very hard due to my childhood experiences to
really listen to myself and how i sound because sometimes i'm not even aware
of my sharpness. i don't believe based on my own experience with my family
(parents, siblings) that your children as children can learn the things that
you want them to without you learning them first.
i really sympothize with the way that you are feeling because it is hard to
face these kinds of things about ourself and even harder to change them. i
know from first hand experience how hard it was and still is (close to 12
years working on it) to change the things that are programmed into us from
birth.
velvet
>From: "Andrea Burlingame" <aburlingame@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:20:29 -0700
>
>Its good to remove her from the situation but at the age of 3, is it
>possible to get her involved in something she likes rather than "remove
>her". Can she take a warm bath? Do they all have to play together?
>=============================
>
>Oh, this is EXACTLY what I try to to do for her. Sometimes she is
>interested in another activity away from her sister, but lately she more
>often just kicks her heel down over and over, grunts, throws things and
>screams "NO!" at me when I make suggestions or offer somethign soothing. I
>have to just leave her alone for awhile when she does that, and eventually,
>sometimes sooner, sometimes much later she comes around.
>............................................................................
>.........................
>
>Many 1 year olds pull hair. Maybe find something similar for him to pull
>on?
>============================
>
>I realize that 1 year olds do this, although he is the first of my 4 to
>bite
>as well. I know it's normal and try to help the girls keep safe from him
>and I distract him from it all the time. He mostly does it when he is
>frustrated, like when he wants to knock down their creations and they won't
>let him. I either have them go where he can't bother him, or sometimes I
>just carry him in on my back, which he likes. The main reason I mentioned
>his hair pulling and biting and such, is because it is part of the whole
>chaos around here. It isn't that I don't expect it from
>him.........................................................................
>..................
>
> Your disapproval of tv first thing in the morning is very clear from
>your
>post, and I'm sure your kids are aware of it too.
>========================
>
>Yes, they know that I don't like the noise of the tv first thing in the
>morning and they know I don't like the tv on as much as it's been on lately
>either. They also know I don't care for watching the same DVD's over and
>over and over again, which is what happens here because we can't get any
>network tv here and can't afford cable. We get our DVD's from the library
>and they trickle in a few each week I put 100 holds on titles. It's
>annoying to me to listen to the same theme songs and such over and over.
>
>Are you saying that my kids are asking for tv because it annoys me? I
>don't
>think this is the case.
>............................................................................
>...................
>
>Why do they have to do other things. Can't they watch tv if they want?
>======================
>
>They don't HAVE to do other things. They usually enjoy doing other things.
>They have been watching ALOT of tv lately. I'm sick of it, personally and
>wish they wanted to do some crafts with me or go to the beach. Watching
>the
>same shows over and over again is really boring to me, and, YES, I'm
>dissappointed that they'd rather do that than something more interactive
>with me.
>............................................................................
>......................
>Why does tv affect you this way? It is clear that you do not like tv, but
>have you ever thought about why? Are you sure that your reasons for the
>dislike are really valid?
>=======================
>
>I do like tv. I love to watch Survivor. I watched so many movies in my
>life that it is rare to find one I haven't seen at the video store. I just
>don't really like it to be on during the day so much. I have thought about
>why. I like to hear birds outside the window. I like to hear my own
>thoughts or to listen to music sometimes. I like the quiet. I also like
>to
>talk and to listen to my children talk, which they don't do much when the
>tv
>is on. I've always been this way, not just since my kids were born. When
>I
>was in the Air Force and had to live in a dorm with a roomate, I hated when
>she'd get home before me and turn her tv on and leave it on until she
>either
>went out or to bed. She wouldn't turn it off even if I asked, so I would
>find somewhere else to be. (I eventually requested to be moved to another
>room.) When I was dating my first husband, he kept the tv on low or muted
>and tuned to the cartoon channel for ambiance. Ugh. I hated that. Even
>when it was muted, I hated the visual "noise." I just don't like the tv on
>very much.
>............................................................................
>.......................
>
>Is it possible you are setting up a power struggle with the kids because
>although you haven't said no, you would feel much better if you did?
>
>I'm sure of it.
>............................................................................
>......................
>
> Is it the tv? Or is it that they sense your disapproval?
>============================
>I believe the tv is partly to blame for the irritableness and short
>-tempers
>around here. I have seen it over and over again with my kids and myself.
>I've seen it when I wasn't looking for it. My experience with my children
>is that when they spent several hours a day sitting in front of the tv to
>watch a movie or whatever, they end up with excess energy and are also much
>more irritable. I don't think they are sniping at each other because I let
>them watch tv when I didn't want to.
>............................................................................
>...................
>
> Are you actually *with* your kids while they are doing things that
>interest them? Are you content just being with them doing whatever they
>like to do (even if its tv)? Or are you using the time that they are
>occupied to "get things done". If you are using that time to "Get things
>done", they are going to drop what they are doing to get your
>attention...even if you're only MIA for 10 minutes. Its the nature of the
>age.
>===============================
>
>I watch things with them often, but not all of the time. Sometimes I wash
>dishes or cook dinner. Sometimes I sit in the same room and read the posts
>on this list. Other times I sit down with them and knit or nurse the baby,
>or just watch with them. Since the baby doesn't really watch much yet, I
>am
>often playing with him.
>............................................................................
>.....................
>
>When you have children so young, arriving at a 'place of peace" does not
>mean that you get time to yourself :o).
>=================
>
>I've noticed! LOL No, really, though, when I say a "place of peace" I
>just
>mean that I want people to use civil tones around here and for there to be
>less fighting and hollering. I realize that it may take awhile. I'm just
>tired. I also wish I could stay calmer in the storm.
>............................................................................
>.....................
>
> And having "peace" starts with your own state of mind. You are having
>trouble letting go of controls to begin with. That is creating a conflict
>for your state of mind. I suspect a lot of this follows from that
>conflict.
>======================
>I think this is pretty accurate for me. I keep trying to meditate and use
>affirmations. I'm terrible at it. I feel WAY behind the eight-ball, so to
>speak. If only things would stay calm for a few days and let me refresh
>myself. If only...
>............................................................................
>......................
> >>Yesterday we went shopping. <<
>
> Big mistake. There is no reason why you should take 3 young kids
>shopping
>with you (unless there are circumstances that I missed somewhere). There
>is
>no reason why you need to do that to yourself.
>===========================
>
>I have no choice. Nobody here to leave them with, and no money for a
>sitter
>(or for the groceries for that matter--I think I overdrew my account
>accidently!) They are pretty well-behaved in grocery stores actually. We
>have fun. They ask for alot, but don't pitch fits when I do have to say
>no.
>Occasionally the three year old will cause trouble by not coming along with
>me or by standing up in the cart if I insist she ride there if she's
>misbehaving, but usually people compliment me on what "well-behaved" or
>"nice" children I have. This happens most places we go, actually.
>............................................................................
>.....................
>
> Is there a reason why the 3 yo couldn't watch the movie while you did
>things with the baby and 4 year old? Honestly, it really sounds as if they
>are testing you to see if you are really going to let *them* make the
>choices.
>===================
>
>The movie wasn't the issue for the 3 yo. She had already started playing
>with her dollies more than she was watching. The transition was what got
>her going. Even if she really wanted to watch the movie, I wouldn't have
>let her watch it alone. It was Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I was
>going to watch it after they were asleep, but they asked me to watch it
>with
>me, and I thought it would be fun, but the baby was putting the nix on that
>plan by standing in front of the screen, pulling hair and throwing blocks.
>I couldn't let the 3 yo watch without me there close by, so I suggested
>something else to do and we'd try the movie again later when baby was
>asleep.
>............................................................................
>.....................
>
> Again, your disapproval of their choices comes through loud and clear.
>You are also still doling out the food in quantities that you decide on,
>and
>asking them to "wait until dinner".
>====================
>I only ASKED if they could wait, because I was in the middle of making them
>something they asked me to make. They didn't seem to mind. I was fully
>prepared to give them the red vines if they still wanted it then. I was
>very conscious of that possibility when I asked.
>............................................................................
>.....................
>
>You are upset because things are "going to waste" and "biting your toungue"
>at your kids while you describe a piece of fruit as "beautiful and crispy".
>And you ate the fruit even though you weren't hungry. That was your choice
>based on your ideas of the "Right way to handle leftover food".
>=====================
>It does bother me when I prepare food that someone has asked to prepare and
>it just sits there uneaten or with a single bite taken out. I ate the
>fruit
>because I was already overwhelmed with things to do and the baby was
>wanting
>to nurse and I didn't have the time or lemon on hand to do something else
>(I
>actually considered saving them just as you have described.). I mentioned
>the apple as being crisp and beautiful because sometimes my 4 yo won't eat
>an apple if it's grainy or doesn't look just right. My point was that it
>was just how she normally likes it.
>............................................................................
>....................
> I know that you are thinking of the money it takes to buy the food you
>have, and how much could be saved if things weren't wasted. But when it
>comes right down to it....an apple has become a higher priority than the
>kids.
>===========================
>This is too simplistic. The apple hasn't become more important than my
>kids. It wouldn't have mattered what food it was, a bowl of ice cream or
>some cookies and milk or broccolli and dip or apples, I would still have
>been equally annoyed if she asked and I prepared and served and she decided
>she was too full and then 20 minutes later asked me for something else.
>She
>rejected the apple and that did bother me, yes, but I was also bothered by
>the seeming onslaught of demands and my inability to do anything that
>satisfied them, no matter how I tried. It seems to me that my children are
>becoming more dissatisfied rather than less so as I pull away limits. I
>really do want to give them more choice and I want to accept their choices
>with equal grace, but I don't want to be around demanding children who
>can't
>be pleased. I'm very frustrated and afraid to take it any further than I
>have by letting them have total access--which would be very impractical
>with
>a one year old running around too.
>
>~Andrea
>............................................................................
>......................
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Have a Nice Day!" <litlrooh@...>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 1:33 PM
>Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
>
>
> > I understand your need to explain it all, it sounds very chaotic and
>your
>post conveys your frustration. But it might be easier to try and sum up
>the
>specific problems in order to arrive at some solutions.
> >
> > It sounds like the two major problems in your post are about TV and
>Food.
> >
> > See below.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Andrea Burlingame
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 11:35 AM
> > Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
> >
> >
> > >>They hit and kick each other. The 3yo does this for no apparent
>reason. If I remove her from the scene, she yells screams and stomps her
>feet andthen when she finally calms down 15-20 minutes later and lets me
>hold her and care for her a bit, she goes right back in and starts bugging
>someone. <<
> >
> > Its good to remove her from the situation but at the age of 3, is it
>possible to get her involved in something she likes rather than "remove
>her". Can she take a warm bath? Do they all have to play together?
> >
> >
> > >>>The baby (1yo) pulls everyones hair and scratches and bites and
>pinches when he is thwarted in any way (and sometimes for no apparent
>reason
>he'll just run over and hurt one of the girls when they are watching
>something on tv)<<<
> > Many 1 year olds pull hair. Maybe find something similar for him to
>pull on?
> >
> >
> > >>Also, they want to watch tv (dvd's in our case, since we can't get
>tv
>here and can't afford cable) first thing in the morning, before the sleep
>is
>rubbed out of their eyes,<<
> >
> > Your disapproval of tv first thing in the morning is very clear from
>your post, and I'm sure your kids are aware of it too.
> >
> > >>and then ask for it every hour or more all day long, even when I
>have
>other things to do with them. <<
> >
> > Why do they have to do other things. Can't they watch tv if they
>want?
> >
> >
> > >>I haven't been saying no except for when I just don't want to hear
>and
>see the blasted thing anymore. I don't really like the tv on in the
>daytime. It literally drones in my ears and I find it very distracting and
>I start to feel depressed when it's on as much as it's been on lately. If
>it were up to me, we wouldn't have one. <<
> >
> > Why does tv affect you this way? It is clear that you do not like tv,
>but have you ever thought about why? Are you sure that your reasons for
>the
>dislike are really valid?
> >
> > Is it possible you are setting up a power struggle with the kids
>because
>although you haven't said no, you would feel much better if you did?
> >
> > >>Plus, my kids are snippier and grumpier with alot of tv. <<
> >
> >
> > Is it the tv? Or is it that they sense your disapproval?
> >
> >
> > >>They are also more "wired", literally bouncing off the walls after a
>long session. I've seen it before when I've eased up, and now I've been
>living with since June. I keep hoping that they will get their fill and
>not
>be so obsessed with watching it, but I'm really starting to lose it.<<
> >
> >
> > But if you keep hoping things will change, then you aren't really
>giving
>them the control. You're giving them a reprieve from the status quo. They
>probably know that. Maybe you need to come to terms with the idea that tv
>is ok, and that if they are happy watching tv right now and you don't like
>tv, then you can be happy finding something else to do, albeit with them.
>And it would probably have to be something you can put down easily.
> >
> >
> > >>With 3 little ones, there is constantly something going on that
>needs
>my immediate attention.<<
> >
> > I'm absolutely sure you are right about that.
> >
> >
> > >>(Since I sat down in desperation to write this, I've stopped to
>mediate a fight twice, got a snack for someone 3 times, kissed an "owie"
>once, cleaned up an accident the 3 yo had, got the baby away from the
>hamsters once and removed him from the girls' room just now--all in a space
>of what? Maybe 10-15 minutes. Argh!) How do you get to a place of
>peace!?
>I swear I've been trying, but I keep failing miserably!<<
> >
> > Are you actually *with* your kids while they are doing things that
>interest them? Are you content just being with them doing whatever they
>like to do (even if its tv)? Or are you using the time that they are
>occupied to "get things done". If you are using that time to "Get things
>done", they are going to drop what they are doing to get your
>attention...even if you're only MIA for 10 minutes. Its the nature of the
>age.
> > When you have children so young, arriving at a 'place of peace" does
>not
>mean that you get time to yourself :o).
> >
> > And having "peace" starts with your own state of mind. You are having
>trouble letting go of controls to begin with. That is creating a conflict
>for your state of mind. I suspect a lot of this follows from that
>conflict.
> >
> >
> > >>Yesterday we went shopping. <<
> >
> > Big mistake. There is no reason why you should take 3 young kids
>shopping with you (unless there are circumstances that I missed somewhere).
>There is no reason why you need to do that to yourself.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> They were happy. They ate a red vine on the way home and then I
>asked them to wait for more, since I was making dinner (Mac and Cheese,
>which they had been asking me for all day.) Fine. One ate most of her
>dinner and the other ate about half of a small bowl. Said she was full.
>Then they wanted ice cream. I didn't say a word about being full, but got
>them each a little bowl of ice cream. They also ate another red vine. We
>tried to watch a movie at their request (they'd already watched 3 that
>day),
>but the baby wouldn't let us and it was getting late, so we went to feed
>and
>play with the hamsters. I suggested watching the movie later the next day,
>and 4 yo was fine, but 3 yo balked, even though she wasn't really watching
>the show anyway. <<
> >
> > Is there a reason why the 3 yo couldn't watch the movie while you did
>things with the baby and 4 year old? Honestly, it really sounds as if they
>are testing you to see if you are really going to let *them* make the
>choices.
> >
> >
> > This morning I got up at 7:30 and everyone else followed shortly
>afterward. I am usually very cheerful in the morning, hoping for and ready
>for a happy day, and this day was no different. I gave everyone hugs and
>asked them how they slept. I asked everyone if they were hungry. They
>wanted Frosted Flakes. I poured them each a bowl and afterward offered
>some
>peanut butter in a spoon (something they like), because in the past a
>simple
>bowl of cereal has preceded grumpiness and them being hungry very shortly
>after eating. 4yo didn't want any, but 3yo and 1yo ate a little. Then
>they all wanted a movie, even though I had offered both the beach and to
>make plaster of paris creatures using balloons and then painting them with
>acrylic paint. They also ate red vines. My three year old asked for her
>6th red vine and I suggested that we had some other snacks too. Would she
>like an apple or some cheese? 4 yo squeals, "Yes! and apple!and some
>chocolate bears!" 3 yo screams,!
> > "NO and stomps her feet and crosses her arms and demands red vines."
>I
>gave her another red vine, cored and sliced and apple and gave everyone
>some
>bears. 4 yo says she doesn't have enough bears even before eating one. I
>told her that if she was still hungry afterward and wanted more, she could
>have some. I started cleaning up the very messy kitchen that didn't get
>cleaned the night before. Before I could even get the dish water started,
>4
>yo says she is full and leaves the table full of uneaten apple
>wedges--beautiful, crispy, tart-sweet Braeburns that she used to love. I
>bite my tongue and ate them myself even though I'm not hungry. I also
>peeled one wedge and gave it to the baby. I hate to see them turn brown
>and go to waste. Then, about 20 minutes later, 4 yo comes up to me and
>says
>she's hungry. She asked me for chocolate bears. 3 yo asked for more red
>vines. They have been fighting and whining and screaming at each other and
>me all morning. I said no to!
> > more bears and vines and 3 yo started screaming at me and stomping he
> > r feet. I held her firmly by the arms and said, "Enough! I don't like
>to
>be screamed at." She started crying and stomping her feet and finally went
>off to play.<<<
> >
> > Again, your disapproval of their choices comes through loud and clear.
>You are also still doling out the food in quantities that you decide on,
>and
>asking them to "wait until dinner". You are upset because things are
>"going
>to waste" and "biting your toungue" at your kids while you describe a piece
>of fruit as "beautiful and crispy". And you ate the fruit even though you
>weren't hungry. That was your choice based on your ideas of the "Right way
>to handle leftover food". I know that you are thinking of the money it
>takes to buy the food you have, and how much could be saved if things
>weren't wasted. But when it comes right down to it....an apple has become
>a higher priority than the kids.
> >
> > If they don't eat all the apple wedges, sprinkle them with lemon juice
>and put them in a zip lock bag. They won't turn brown then. Or, cook them
>down and make applesauce or compote out of them.
> > Can you just put all the food where they can freely access it? And
>then
>just let them pick and choose what they want in whatever quantity they
>want.
>That way you don't have to decide how much they should have of what. They
>can decide for themselves. Of course, then you will have to deal with the
>same problem I have....keeping enough around so that they aren't hording it
>:o).
> >
> > It leaves the kitchen a bit of a mess, for sure. And you'll have to
>deal with your feelings of things "going to waste". But the trade off is
>that they will learn how to eat in a way that satisfies their hunger,
>without attatching any particular signigicance to food.
> >
> >
> > >> It seems like the more I freedom I give, the ruder they get with me
>and each other. <<
> >
> > Are you really giving them freedom? Or are you giving them the
>illusion
>of freedom while you monitor everything they do and hope they change? It
>sounds like you are still holding on to your idea of "the way things should
>be" and hoping that by letting go of controls, they'll just naturally
>gravitate toward what you believe.
> >
> > If you are really going to let go of controls, you have to let them
>develop their own...and they may not be the same as yours.
> >
> > Kristen
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
>http://www.unschooling.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Robyn Coburn
<<<To others who have responded to my original posts--thank you. I will
respond as I can...usually can't do much during the day. When I do, there
are even more problems around here than usual. I do appreicate your taking
the time read and then offer me your advice and insights.>>>
For my own part, please don't feel obliged to express any thanks
individually merely because I posted on something you wrote. You have enough
to do with your time, Andrea. Go ahead and argue if you disagree, of course!
(g)
It is not necessary for individual responses since this is a list of over
1000 members. The above reply is more than enough, and the discussion will
probably move on to "universal" issues initiated by your posts pretty
quickly. I sometimes mix up short quotes from several persons' responses
into one reply if the ideas are still bubbling up.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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respond as I can...usually can't do much during the day. When I do, there
are even more problems around here than usual. I do appreicate your taking
the time read and then offer me your advice and insights.>>>
For my own part, please don't feel obliged to express any thanks
individually merely because I posted on something you wrote. You have enough
to do with your time, Andrea. Go ahead and argue if you disagree, of course!
(g)
It is not necessary for individual responses since this is a list of over
1000 members. The above reply is more than enough, and the discussion will
probably move on to "universal" issues initiated by your posts pretty
quickly. I sometimes mix up short quotes from several persons' responses
into one reply if the ideas are still bubbling up.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Robyn Coburn
<<<< And having "peace" starts with your own state of mind. You are having
trouble letting go of controls to begin with. That is creating a conflict
for your state of mind. I suspect a lot of this follows from that conflict.
======================
I think this is pretty accurate for me. I keep trying to meditate and use
affirmations. I'm terrible at it. I feel WAY behind the eight-ball, so to
speak. If only things would stay calm for a few days and let me refresh
myself. If only...>>>>
Keep at it. Affirmations work best when you say them aloud so your ears and
your mind hear them. (I know it feels goofy at first). I have read that you
need to say each one 21 times (in each session of affirming) before it
actually starts to work. Perhaps learn about the concept of detachment some
more.
<<<I only ASKED if they could wait, because I was in the middle of making
them something they asked me to make. They didn't seem to mind. I was
fully prepared to give them the red vines if they still wanted it then. I
was very conscious of that possibility when I asked.>>>>
Sometimes parents assume that their consciousness equals the child's
consciousness. Sometimes Jayn doesn't seem to mind waiting, but she is
actually distracted. She says OK, then a moment later comes back with
"Where's my ice-cream sandwich?" even though I had asked her to wait a
minute (for some reason) as if she didn't REALLY hear me ask her.
<<<It does bother me when I prepare food that someone has asked to prepare
andit just sits there uneaten or with a single bite taken out. I ate the
fruit because I was already overwhelmed with things to do and the baby was
wanting to nurse and I didn't have the time or lemon on hand to do something
else (I actually considered saving them just as you have described.).....
[snip]
I would still have
been equally annoyed if she asked and I prepared and served and she decided
she was too full and then 20 minutes later asked me for something else.>>>
Jayn sometimes does this too. Her tummy is the size of her tiny little fist.
I don't believe she is saying she is full but being untruthful.
If it makes you feel any better, this issue of letting go of "waste is a bad
outcome" is one that comes back cyclically on these boards amongst new
unschoolers. The amount of waste our kids create is orders of magnitude less
than say any restaurant, plus we have the opportunity to make compost a lot
of the time. It is really OK to throw out a cut apple sometimes, and it
won't be forever that you have a baby wanting to nurse taking the proper
priority.
It is not necessarily a good thing to model eating something anyway when you
are not hungry for it.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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trouble letting go of controls to begin with. That is creating a conflict
for your state of mind. I suspect a lot of this follows from that conflict.
======================
I think this is pretty accurate for me. I keep trying to meditate and use
affirmations. I'm terrible at it. I feel WAY behind the eight-ball, so to
speak. If only things would stay calm for a few days and let me refresh
myself. If only...>>>>
Keep at it. Affirmations work best when you say them aloud so your ears and
your mind hear them. (I know it feels goofy at first). I have read that you
need to say each one 21 times (in each session of affirming) before it
actually starts to work. Perhaps learn about the concept of detachment some
more.
<<<I only ASKED if they could wait, because I was in the middle of making
them something they asked me to make. They didn't seem to mind. I was
fully prepared to give them the red vines if they still wanted it then. I
was very conscious of that possibility when I asked.>>>>
Sometimes parents assume that their consciousness equals the child's
consciousness. Sometimes Jayn doesn't seem to mind waiting, but she is
actually distracted. She says OK, then a moment later comes back with
"Where's my ice-cream sandwich?" even though I had asked her to wait a
minute (for some reason) as if she didn't REALLY hear me ask her.
<<<It does bother me when I prepare food that someone has asked to prepare
andit just sits there uneaten or with a single bite taken out. I ate the
fruit because I was already overwhelmed with things to do and the baby was
wanting to nurse and I didn't have the time or lemon on hand to do something
else (I actually considered saving them just as you have described.).....
[snip]
I would still have
been equally annoyed if she asked and I prepared and served and she decided
she was too full and then 20 minutes later asked me for something else.>>>
Jayn sometimes does this too. Her tummy is the size of her tiny little fist.
I don't believe she is saying she is full but being untruthful.
If it makes you feel any better, this issue of letting go of "waste is a bad
outcome" is one that comes back cyclically on these boards amongst new
unschoolers. The amount of waste our kids create is orders of magnitude less
than say any restaurant, plus we have the opportunity to make compost a lot
of the time. It is really OK to throw out a cut apple sometimes, and it
won't be forever that you have a baby wanting to nurse taking the proper
priority.
It is not necessarily a good thing to model eating something anyway when you
are not hungry for it.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 8/16/2004
[email protected]
At 08:47 PM 8/21/04, Andrea wrote:
I'm going to be blunt: nothing will change until you change yourself. If
you are committed to unschooling you have to embrace it fully. The problems
you have written about are your problems, not your childrens'. If you don't
like the tv noise you can learn to accept it or not. The fighting will
happen, every day, maybe many times a day. Accept it and learn ways to deal
with it. A calm attitude really does change childrens' behaviour.
I think that having been restricted in the past makes the tv more
attractive to your kids. They may want to watch a lot for a while but
eventually it will balance out and they will go back to the other enticing
activities you are offering. Keep offering without pushing.
Are you spending a lot of time on housework? You didn't say. You have no
time for housework. Food and laundry are priorities but a spotless floor
isn't. Neither is a clean kitchen, except to keep the insects down. Three
kids and a mom live in your house, really live there, not just sleep there.
The house should reflect this.
I also think you need a little bit of time to focus just on you. Is there
time before the kids get up, before you go to bed, or when the 1-y.o. is
napping to do some yoga or aerobics or dancing? It makes a world of
difference to me.
Donna
>It does make me grumpy, but I don't think I'd be nearly as grumpy if theyI feel for you, Andrea. I've been through a lot of this myself.
>weren't also fighting alot and so on. I think it's all feeling a bit
>jumbled at this point. I'd be lying if I said that it doesn't bother and
>worry me that they watch so much tv. So maybe that's part of why the sound
>of tv bothers me, even though I've always detested tv on (and on and on) in
>the daytime. Maybe it is all just a vicious cycle. I want out.
I'm going to be blunt: nothing will change until you change yourself. If
you are committed to unschooling you have to embrace it fully. The problems
you have written about are your problems, not your childrens'. If you don't
like the tv noise you can learn to accept it or not. The fighting will
happen, every day, maybe many times a day. Accept it and learn ways to deal
with it. A calm attitude really does change childrens' behaviour.
I think that having been restricted in the past makes the tv more
attractive to your kids. They may want to watch a lot for a while but
eventually it will balance out and they will go back to the other enticing
activities you are offering. Keep offering without pushing.
Are you spending a lot of time on housework? You didn't say. You have no
time for housework. Food and laundry are priorities but a spotless floor
isn't. Neither is a clean kitchen, except to keep the insects down. Three
kids and a mom live in your house, really live there, not just sleep there.
The house should reflect this.
I also think you need a little bit of time to focus just on you. Is there
time before the kids get up, before you go to bed, or when the 1-y.o. is
napping to do some yoga or aerobics or dancing? It makes a world of
difference to me.
Donna
Penne & Buddies
Pam returned this post with a suggestion that I delete the reference
text at the end of my message. Since I felt that much of my reply
played off of Sandra's observations, I decided to trim and post
within the text, which is usually my habit anyway. I never really
noticed how helpful this method is in clarifying, edifying, and
basically making things a wee bit briefer(I try, honest!) than
standing on its own. Thanks, Pam! See replies at Buddyflies :)(:
below and HAND-PDA
text at the end of my message. Since I felt that much of my reply
played off of Sandra's observations, I decided to trim and post
within the text, which is usually my habit anyway. I never really
noticed how helpful this method is in clarifying, edifying, and
basically making things a wee bit briefer(I try, honest!) than
standing on its own. Thanks, Pam! See replies at Buddyflies :)(:
below and HAND-PDA
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 8/21/2004 5:50:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> aburlingame@c... writes:
<snip>
>
> Really.
> If your child needs structure, she will create it.
> Perhaps the structure she wants is to watch that video. <g>
:)(: I wish someone had unschooled me so I could have learned as
much about structuring my life as my kids do! They are amazing in
self-sufficiency, self-direction, self-discipline (I'm learning from
them all the time!) Just give 'em some time and you'll see!
>
> -=-or my need for peace and quiet
> or to spend more interactive time with them?
> -=-
> Your need for peace and quiet was forfeited when you got
pregnant. Those
> last few months before the baby came were about the last rest
before they're
> older. Bummer. I can't change it.
>
> Lots of parents do change it but there's a high cost. They lose
the
> relationship with their child.
>
:)(: Amen to that. Sandra is absolutely right, life has to be lived
in the here and now -- with each other. That relationship is
everything you _choose_ to make of it, but I have found that it
takes more than blind faith to make this work. It takes
understanding and experience. We have nine kids, a DIL, and a new
grandbaby -- and I'm trying my best to help them see that everything
falls into place if we keep our focus on what's important.
>
> -=- Sometimes
> I'm just too overwhelmed like the last couple of days. I'll start
fresh
> again tomorrow. -=-
>
> Why tomorrow? Why not now? The next breath you take, take a
deeper breath
> than you usually do. Hold it a little longer than you ordinarily
would.
> Choose to let it out slowly.
>
> http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/HEM154.98/154.98_clmn_unschl.html
>
> Something about new days, and mornings.
>
> Sandra
:)(: That's the spirit! With my brood, you can believe that every
single moment is a new beginning around here! Awesome article,
Sandra -- I memorized all the verses to "Morning Has Broken" and
learned to play it on my guitar when I was in highschool. My heart
was broken when Cat Stevens denounced his work in music as a
meaningful contribution to society, but I hear he's reconsidered
using his creativity to promote the Muslim faith now. We live, we
learn, we grow up together and it seems like just this morning, we
were beginning the whole adventure.
I can tell you that my old religion (United Methodist) taught that
these trials and tribulations are God's way of making one stronger,
and my extended family still firmly believes that. Only problem is
that one of my brothers decided he was sick & tired of being tested
by a so-called loving Parent and put an end to the charade once and
for all... or so he thought. I learned about Christian Science (CS)
about seven years later while investigating the vaccination issue
and dealing with my own health and family issues -- it has made all
the difference in the world in handling life's little (and big)
challenges.
The most important thing I learned is that there's more to it than
making up your mind to make lemonade with the lemons life throws at
you. CS gave us a practical way to handle any and every problem
that comes our way (unwarranted fear being the basis for much of our
negative experiences) and it has proved its worth over and over
again since my first unexpected healing back in '94 of a crippling
case of psoriasis that had plagued me for a decade. For an avid
writer, that's a biggie!
If you or anyone else is interested in learning more about it, check
out "Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures" by Mary Baker
Eddy. There's some great stuff on marriage and family and her
comments on education are timeless (Mrs. Eddy was homeschooled,
too.) Full text of the book is freely available online at Healing
Unlimited http://www.christianscience.org and at the local library,
though I prefer the final 1910 edition at HU over the one currently
being published by the corrupt Boston organization.
Tie a knot in the end of the rope and hang on! as my mom always
likes to say :o) Vayan con Dios, Amigos ~
Penne & the Family
http://www.ardfamilyco-op.net
Andrea Burlingame
It sounds like you are feeling lonely and isolated. I can relate to that
too. I am way out in the country and don't drive. I am also living rent free
in a house owned by my MIL. DH makes only about 20K a year, so I understand
about being on a tight budget too.
====================
I was really feeling lonely and isolated the last week or so, and I feel
that way periodically--most noticeably when I'm PMSing, which I was this
time, too. Ugh. Usually I recognize it coming and try to prepare myself
better, but I've had a cluttered mind dealing with late bills and such...
Thank you, Vijay, for the understanding and also for your thoughtful
replies. I'm mulling them over and below have responded to some of what you
said.
=============
Is there any way that you could pack all of the kids up and go to a
playground or a beach or a park and let them run around?
=============
We do this quite a bit, since I live within walking distance of the Pacific
Ocean and a very, very long sandy beach. (I live in Ocean Park, WA on the
Long Beach Penninsula which is on the southern Washington coast.) We are
really enjoying it, actually, but sometimes the kids decide they don't want
to go to the beach, even though when we do, they always have fun. We change
it up by going to the southern tip of the peninsula too, because there are
cliffs and rock formations there to climb on and a really cool beach located
in a rocky cove (as opposed to just a really long and wide stretch of
sand!). It's in a state park, though, so we have to pay $5 to park. Still
we go 2-3 times a month to change things up, and we also go hiking on some
of the trails and visit the lighthouses on that end. I really can't
complain too much about where I live, other than having no friends here
(yet) and also the fact that I'm here most of the time without my husband,
so I start to feel a little wacky! LOL
Anyway, I'm happy to report that I'm feeling better, in part because it's
just time to feel better, but also because I took some proactive steps today
to not be so isolated here.
=================
I could be wrong, but I think maybe you are expecting too much from a 1 y.o.
================
Actually, I don't have any unrealistic expectations of my 1 yo. He is
number 4 for me, and I'm aware of the stages and such. I only mentioned his
"stuff" because it's adding to the hoopla around here. The girls are
really frustrated and I spend alot of time redirecting him and helping them
to do the same. But they are so little and have a hard time being patient,
especially my 3 yo. She hurts him back, and I can totally understand her
impulse, even though I don't condone her actions.
The 4 yo breaks out in tears when he hurts her. I have to keep reminding
her to move away and not just sit there and let him abuse her. She goes
into "helpless mode" LOL.
I think sometimes my 4 yo has a really hard time with 2 younger siblings,
because she was so rational and articulate at such a young age (she knew
several words at around 9-10 months, and spoke very clearly and in sentences
by 18 mos), that it's easy to forget she is so young. She is only 15 months
older than her younger sister, who is a completely different kind of child
who seems 2+ years younger than the 4 yo most of the time. Anyway, I'm
trying to focus on each of them as individuals, so I won't slip into
thinking too much of them in relation to each other--you know, "the oldest",
"the middle child", "the baby". It helps me to see that the 4 yo is still a
really young girl who needs to be nurtured as such. I'm not perfect about
it, but I am conscious of her needs. I wish my husband was able to live
with us, because I would like to spend more one on one time with all of my
children. I was able to do alot more of that in Portland when we were all
in the same house, and they girls LOVED it.
Thanks again for the time you spent trying to help me see things more
clearly. I'm still "chewing on" much of what you wrote and also what others
have written and it's all swirling and mingling with other reading I've
been doing--about meditation and anger, and finding peace. I'm going to
get to that better place. I just have to keep working at it and this list
inspires me so much. I have to say, I agree with what Sandra said about my
situation not really being about unschooling. This is just parenting little
kids. I know that. But I also want to say that this is the only list I've
wanted to post to, because it's the only list that I read anymore--because I
am truly challenged to think things here and I get well thought-out and
helpful replies that make me want to take action. The writing here is, for
the most part, REALLY intelligent and often life-changing. Too many other
lists offer fluffy stuff that, yes, can sometimes make you feel better, but
I just can't grow on that, regardless of the kind intentions. My children
are young, but I'm SO thankful for this list, because regardless of what I
take and don't take from it, I am growing and learning so much, and I have a
real headstart on giving my kids the freedom and tools they need to be
strong, fullfilled and functional in their lives, and I'm finally working on
myself in ways that I've needed to and wanted to for so long. So, maybe I
won't post so much (especially when I"m so emotional--sorry all), but I'll
certainly keep reading as much as possible.
~Andrea
too. I am way out in the country and don't drive. I am also living rent free
in a house owned by my MIL. DH makes only about 20K a year, so I understand
about being on a tight budget too.
====================
I was really feeling lonely and isolated the last week or so, and I feel
that way periodically--most noticeably when I'm PMSing, which I was this
time, too. Ugh. Usually I recognize it coming and try to prepare myself
better, but I've had a cluttered mind dealing with late bills and such...
Thank you, Vijay, for the understanding and also for your thoughtful
replies. I'm mulling them over and below have responded to some of what you
said.
=============
Is there any way that you could pack all of the kids up and go to a
playground or a beach or a park and let them run around?
=============
We do this quite a bit, since I live within walking distance of the Pacific
Ocean and a very, very long sandy beach. (I live in Ocean Park, WA on the
Long Beach Penninsula which is on the southern Washington coast.) We are
really enjoying it, actually, but sometimes the kids decide they don't want
to go to the beach, even though when we do, they always have fun. We change
it up by going to the southern tip of the peninsula too, because there are
cliffs and rock formations there to climb on and a really cool beach located
in a rocky cove (as opposed to just a really long and wide stretch of
sand!). It's in a state park, though, so we have to pay $5 to park. Still
we go 2-3 times a month to change things up, and we also go hiking on some
of the trails and visit the lighthouses on that end. I really can't
complain too much about where I live, other than having no friends here
(yet) and also the fact that I'm here most of the time without my husband,
so I start to feel a little wacky! LOL
Anyway, I'm happy to report that I'm feeling better, in part because it's
just time to feel better, but also because I took some proactive steps today
to not be so isolated here.
=================
I could be wrong, but I think maybe you are expecting too much from a 1 y.o.
================
Actually, I don't have any unrealistic expectations of my 1 yo. He is
number 4 for me, and I'm aware of the stages and such. I only mentioned his
"stuff" because it's adding to the hoopla around here. The girls are
really frustrated and I spend alot of time redirecting him and helping them
to do the same. But they are so little and have a hard time being patient,
especially my 3 yo. She hurts him back, and I can totally understand her
impulse, even though I don't condone her actions.
The 4 yo breaks out in tears when he hurts her. I have to keep reminding
her to move away and not just sit there and let him abuse her. She goes
into "helpless mode" LOL.
I think sometimes my 4 yo has a really hard time with 2 younger siblings,
because she was so rational and articulate at such a young age (she knew
several words at around 9-10 months, and spoke very clearly and in sentences
by 18 mos), that it's easy to forget she is so young. She is only 15 months
older than her younger sister, who is a completely different kind of child
who seems 2+ years younger than the 4 yo most of the time. Anyway, I'm
trying to focus on each of them as individuals, so I won't slip into
thinking too much of them in relation to each other--you know, "the oldest",
"the middle child", "the baby". It helps me to see that the 4 yo is still a
really young girl who needs to be nurtured as such. I'm not perfect about
it, but I am conscious of her needs. I wish my husband was able to live
with us, because I would like to spend more one on one time with all of my
children. I was able to do alot more of that in Portland when we were all
in the same house, and they girls LOVED it.
Thanks again for the time you spent trying to help me see things more
clearly. I'm still "chewing on" much of what you wrote and also what others
have written and it's all swirling and mingling with other reading I've
been doing--about meditation and anger, and finding peace. I'm going to
get to that better place. I just have to keep working at it and this list
inspires me so much. I have to say, I agree with what Sandra said about my
situation not really being about unschooling. This is just parenting little
kids. I know that. But I also want to say that this is the only list I've
wanted to post to, because it's the only list that I read anymore--because I
am truly challenged to think things here and I get well thought-out and
helpful replies that make me want to take action. The writing here is, for
the most part, REALLY intelligent and often life-changing. Too many other
lists offer fluffy stuff that, yes, can sometimes make you feel better, but
I just can't grow on that, regardless of the kind intentions. My children
are young, but I'm SO thankful for this list, because regardless of what I
take and don't take from it, I am growing and learning so much, and I have a
real headstart on giving my kids the freedom and tools they need to be
strong, fullfilled and functional in their lives, and I'm finally working on
myself in ways that I've needed to and wanted to for so long. So, maybe I
won't post so much (especially when I"m so emotional--sorry all), but I'll
certainly keep reading as much as possible.
~Andrea
Andrea Burlingame
About the TV - why isn't your voice as important as others in this? If you
don't want to have one, can it at least be brought up? Can a compromise be
found - children can have it on sometimes, mom can have it off sometimes?
=================
Jen, I appreciate your thoughts and wanted in particular to respond to the
above. I have been forcing my "voice" into the picture regarding the tv, by
sometimes saying, "No, I'm tired of hearing the tv today. It's already been
on for 2 movies and I need a break." I guess I was thinking of this as only
fair--that I'm a member of the family who should have some say, too. But
after I read this (your post) I started thinking about it more carefully,
and I realized that noone is coming to any mutually agreeable plan or
compromising at all. It's just me dictating my version of fairness. How
fair is that!? LOL Now, I'm thinking about approaching the children with
the suggestion that we come up with some sort of loose tv schedule or
something like that, that makes us all happier. Like maybe they could watch
unlimited in the afternoon and evenings, and in the mornings they could
watch a shorter (30 min.) show when they get up, but then not watch again
until after lunch...or something like that. I'd be WAY happier knowing that
I'd have that no tv time each day, and I'm thinking that if they help to
put a plan in place, they'll know they have some choice and that I care
about what they want. It's an idea. I haven't thought it out fully yet, nor
have I mentioned it to the girls, but can anyone here see any serious flaws
with this??
~Andrea
don't want to have one, can it at least be brought up? Can a compromise be
found - children can have it on sometimes, mom can have it off sometimes?
=================
Jen, I appreciate your thoughts and wanted in particular to respond to the
above. I have been forcing my "voice" into the picture regarding the tv, by
sometimes saying, "No, I'm tired of hearing the tv today. It's already been
on for 2 movies and I need a break." I guess I was thinking of this as only
fair--that I'm a member of the family who should have some say, too. But
after I read this (your post) I started thinking about it more carefully,
and I realized that noone is coming to any mutually agreeable plan or
compromising at all. It's just me dictating my version of fairness. How
fair is that!? LOL Now, I'm thinking about approaching the children with
the suggestion that we come up with some sort of loose tv schedule or
something like that, that makes us all happier. Like maybe they could watch
unlimited in the afternoon and evenings, and in the mornings they could
watch a shorter (30 min.) show when they get up, but then not watch again
until after lunch...or something like that. I'd be WAY happier knowing that
I'd have that no tv time each day, and I'm thinking that if they help to
put a plan in place, they'll know they have some choice and that I care
about what they want. It's an idea. I haven't thought it out fully yet, nor
have I mentioned it to the girls, but can anyone here see any serious flaws
with this??
~Andrea
kayb85
Now, I'm thinking about approaching the children with
make them look so forward to afternoon tv time that they would watch
every afternoon just because they're allowed to then. If there
were no limits, they might choose not to watch some afternoons
though.
Sheila
> the suggestion that we come up with some sort of loose tv scheduleor
> something like that, that makes us all happier. Like maybe theycould watch
> unlimited in the afternoon and evenings, and in the mornings theycould
> watch a shorter (30 min.) show when they get up, but then not watchagain
> until after lunch...or something like that. I'd be WAY happierknowing that
> I'd have that no tv time each day, and I'm thinking that if theyhelp to
> put a plan in place, they'll know they have some choice and that Icare
> about what they want. It's an idea. I haven't thought it out fullyyet, nor
> have I mentioned it to the girls, but can anyone here see anyserious flaws
> with this??I'd be afraid that not being allowed to watch in the morning would
make them look so forward to afternoon tv time that they would watch
every afternoon just because they're allowed to then. If there
were no limits, they might choose not to watch some afternoons
though.
Sheila
Andrea Burlingame
Try to organize your house to make your life and your job as easy as
possible; do the same for the kids. Shortcuts are extremely valuable with
young kids. Focus your priorities on living joyfully and easily together.
==============
This is great advice that I can never hear enough of, because even though I
know it too be true, I get lost in the fray sometimes and can forget how
simply changing something that's not working can really help. Today,
instead of griping at my 4 yo daughter about her clothes being on the living
room floor again, I added another wicker basket to the living room for
clothes (we already have 2--one for books and one for toys). My girls often
strip down naked to play in the pool, and their clothes end up on the living
room floor or somewhere nearby. Now, instead of nagging them and giving up
and grumpily taking them into their bedroom to put them away myself, I can
leave them alone and just toss them easily into the basket and put them away
at the end of the day or whenever I get to it. I also pointed out the new
basket to the girls and told them that if they don't feel like walking to
their room to put clothes away (they just end up all over the floor in
there, anyway!), they can toss them there. It's a small thing, but I know
it will help...along with my intention to change my atttitude about the
whole thing! (Which I know is ALSO key!)
=================
So let them. Even if they just woke up, even if they have sleep in their
eyes, even if you have other plans, let them. If it's bugging you, then find
something else to occupy your time.
=================
I did well with this today. When they woke up and wanted watch, I didn't
tense up or tell them no or try to entice them with something else. I just
let them. And I focused on some things I needed/wanted to do today. When I
considered adjusting my attitude about this last night, I also realized that
it would help if I kept a running list of things that I can do during that
time, because often, I'm too disorganized to remember what I want to or need
to do and I don't take advantage of those moments the way I could. So
anyway, I had my list ready, and I felt SOOO efficient.....and completely
unruffled by their enjoyment of the tv. Yay!!! Oh...and I have to mention
that being so efficient allowed me to have something ready for them to do
when they finished and were asking what they could do. Yay!!! (We had a
GREAT day today, by the way!)
=============
Put on some music and dance together. -=snip=- If I was really grumpy or
really depressed, I would put on one of my hardcore CDs like the Chilli
Peppers or, now, Alannis Morissett. Yeah, the language in them is bad, but
the kids don't even pick that up, and man, does it provide a really great
realease! Way better to be exposed to the occasional curse words and some
nasty lyrics that are all slurred together anyway than a mama's yelling or
general grumpiness. Do this while your kids are watching something, crank it
up loud and just dance with abandon. Seriously.
===============
You know, I used to do this with my older son (now 15) when he was little.
Sometimes I know he thought I was a dork, but I also know that he liked it.
I have danced with my girls some, but not enough. I'm not sure why. They'd
like even more than he did. (He can be a bit stuffy at times. LOL) You
know, I think I'm going to start doing this when I feel my chest tightening
and I'm feeling too negative to breath (at least until I get better at the
breathing and calming thing.) You just can't stay in a bad mood with good
music and dancing going on! Some things are so simple, I have to wonder why
I haven't just done them all along!
============
There are several books you may find helpful if you haven't already read
them:
============
I have read many of these, and even have a couple of them out from the
library right now. I feel I need to look again and let some of what they
have to offer really sink in good. Thanks for the list.
============
Biggest thing is being honest with your kids and including them in the
brainstorming process.
============
I think that I need to really work on this, because it could make a huge
difference. I've already thought of some ways that it could help. I wonder
if the 3 yo is ready to participate in a family meeting. No...I think she
is, if we are all ready to really listen carefully to her input!
Danielle, I thank you for your help here. You put things in such a way that
I can't help but want to try your ideas out right away. Your descriptions
of your family life make me feel hopeful that we can have that too.
Thanks,
Andrea
possible; do the same for the kids. Shortcuts are extremely valuable with
young kids. Focus your priorities on living joyfully and easily together.
==============
This is great advice that I can never hear enough of, because even though I
know it too be true, I get lost in the fray sometimes and can forget how
simply changing something that's not working can really help. Today,
instead of griping at my 4 yo daughter about her clothes being on the living
room floor again, I added another wicker basket to the living room for
clothes (we already have 2--one for books and one for toys). My girls often
strip down naked to play in the pool, and their clothes end up on the living
room floor or somewhere nearby. Now, instead of nagging them and giving up
and grumpily taking them into their bedroom to put them away myself, I can
leave them alone and just toss them easily into the basket and put them away
at the end of the day or whenever I get to it. I also pointed out the new
basket to the girls and told them that if they don't feel like walking to
their room to put clothes away (they just end up all over the floor in
there, anyway!), they can toss them there. It's a small thing, but I know
it will help...along with my intention to change my atttitude about the
whole thing! (Which I know is ALSO key!)
=================
So let them. Even if they just woke up, even if they have sleep in their
eyes, even if you have other plans, let them. If it's bugging you, then find
something else to occupy your time.
=================
I did well with this today. When they woke up and wanted watch, I didn't
tense up or tell them no or try to entice them with something else. I just
let them. And I focused on some things I needed/wanted to do today. When I
considered adjusting my attitude about this last night, I also realized that
it would help if I kept a running list of things that I can do during that
time, because often, I'm too disorganized to remember what I want to or need
to do and I don't take advantage of those moments the way I could. So
anyway, I had my list ready, and I felt SOOO efficient.....and completely
unruffled by their enjoyment of the tv. Yay!!! Oh...and I have to mention
that being so efficient allowed me to have something ready for them to do
when they finished and were asking what they could do. Yay!!! (We had a
GREAT day today, by the way!)
=============
Put on some music and dance together. -=snip=- If I was really grumpy or
really depressed, I would put on one of my hardcore CDs like the Chilli
Peppers or, now, Alannis Morissett. Yeah, the language in them is bad, but
the kids don't even pick that up, and man, does it provide a really great
realease! Way better to be exposed to the occasional curse words and some
nasty lyrics that are all slurred together anyway than a mama's yelling or
general grumpiness. Do this while your kids are watching something, crank it
up loud and just dance with abandon. Seriously.
===============
You know, I used to do this with my older son (now 15) when he was little.
Sometimes I know he thought I was a dork, but I also know that he liked it.
I have danced with my girls some, but not enough. I'm not sure why. They'd
like even more than he did. (He can be a bit stuffy at times. LOL) You
know, I think I'm going to start doing this when I feel my chest tightening
and I'm feeling too negative to breath (at least until I get better at the
breathing and calming thing.) You just can't stay in a bad mood with good
music and dancing going on! Some things are so simple, I have to wonder why
I haven't just done them all along!
============
There are several books you may find helpful if you haven't already read
them:
============
I have read many of these, and even have a couple of them out from the
library right now. I feel I need to look again and let some of what they
have to offer really sink in good. Thanks for the list.
============
Biggest thing is being honest with your kids and including them in the
brainstorming process.
============
I think that I need to really work on this, because it could make a huge
difference. I've already thought of some ways that it could help. I wonder
if the 3 yo is ready to participate in a family meeting. No...I think she
is, if we are all ready to really listen carefully to her input!
Danielle, I thank you for your help here. You put things in such a way that
I can't help but want to try your ideas out right away. Your descriptions
of your family life make me feel hopeful that we can have that too.
Thanks,
Andrea
Andrea Burlingame
>Well, I don't know what we'd come up with, actually, because I don't have
> I'd be afraid that not being allowed to watch in the morning would
> make them look so forward to afternoon tv time that they would watch
> every afternoon just because they're allowed to then. If there
> were no limits, they might choose not to watch some afternoons
> though.
>
> Sheila
their input. I think the way I might bring this up with them would be to
say to them, "Girls, I know you really like watching movies and I want you
to be able to do that and enjoy it. Some days for me it seems like the tv
on all day and that starts to bother me. How can we work it out so that you
feel good about being able to watch movies and I feel good about being able
to have some quiet time each day? Do you have any ideas?" And then we'd
brainstorm, taking all ideas seriously and being flexible enough to change a
plan if it didn't work out well.
Perhaps we'd end up having no limits, but they'd be willing to wait
sometimes, when I'm having a particular need for quiet. You know...deal with
it as it comes up. At least we'd all be more aware of everyone else's needs
and concerns, and that would help us all be more patient and understanding
regarding this issue. I also plan to work on adjusting my attitude
regarding the tv, because it's clearly an issue for me...and I don't think
it should be as big an issue as it is.
~Andrea
Andrea Burlingame
I think if you have bad (tv)*associations with a former roommate and ex
husband you should get through and over those issues so they don't affect
your children.
============
*parenthesis mine
I don't think I learned to to be annoyed by tv in the daytime, or whatever,
because of my former roommate or ex husband. If I have tv issues, they
existed before these people were in my life. I just used these examples to
illustrate that my annoyance with tv in the daytime existed and it existed
before I had kids even and therefore I do not believe my issue with tv is
simply an issue involving the need to control them.
That said, I do beleive that concern for them and their health, etc...
drives some--alot--of my irritation. Before their interest in watching,
they played and played, and I liked that better. I realize this is an issue
I need to work on. Still, it is hard for me to tolerate the tv my own self,
when I lift the limits. I'm working on this now.
~Andrea
husband you should get through and over those issues so they don't affect
your children.
============
*parenthesis mine
I don't think I learned to to be annoyed by tv in the daytime, or whatever,
because of my former roommate or ex husband. If I have tv issues, they
existed before these people were in my life. I just used these examples to
illustrate that my annoyance with tv in the daytime existed and it existed
before I had kids even and therefore I do not believe my issue with tv is
simply an issue involving the need to control them.
That said, I do beleive that concern for them and their health, etc...
drives some--alot--of my irritation. Before their interest in watching,
they played and played, and I liked that better. I realize this is an issue
I need to work on. Still, it is hard for me to tolerate the tv my own self,
when I lift the limits. I'm working on this now.
~Andrea
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Why isn't this working!?
> In a message dated 8/21/2004 4:26:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> aburlingame@... writes:
> Are you saying that my kids are asking for tv because it annoys me? I
don't
> think this is the case.
> --------------
>
> I don't think anyone was suggesting that, but if you're being cranky and
> critical they'll feel it.
>
> -=-Watching the same shows over and over again is really boring to me-=-
>
> Then don't watch them with them every time.
>
> Will you read a book you've read before? Listen to music you've heard
> before? It's no different. There is MORE input in a movie than either a
book or a
> recording, so if they like it and really want to process and know it all,
they
> will watch it over and over before they know all the lines and the songs.
> That's studying <g>.
>
> -=-and, YES, I'm
> dissappointed that they'd rather do that than something more interactive
> with me.
> -=-
>
> I used to be disappointed if Kirby wasn't interested in something I was
> interested in, but I'm glad I got over it, because honestly it was selfish
on my
> part, and a kind of distracted immaturity. Everything went better when I
> learned how to follow his interests, and find things he wanted to do.
When he was
> excited, I was excited. When I was sad, and he was sad, there was just a
big
> wad of sadness.
>
> -=-I believe the tv is partly to blame for the irritableness and short
> -tempers
> around here.-=-
>
> I think if you have bad associations with a former roommate and ex husband
> you should get through and over those issues so they don't affect your
children.
> That might sound harsh, but really... if you're outnumbered and haven't
> offered a more enticing alternative, they want to watch TV at their house.
Maybe
> you can get a walkman and listen to birdsons or soothing music with
> headphones. If they want you they can come tug your pants if you don't
see them. You
> would hear them call you over white-noise tapes or soothing tapes.
>
> -=-This is too simplistic. The apple hasn't become more important than my
> kids. It wouldn't have mattered what food it was, a bowl of ice cream or
> some cookies and milk or broccolli and dip or apples, I would still have
> been equally annoyed if she asked and I prepared and served and she
decided
> she was too full and then 20 minutes later asked me for something
lse. -=-
>
> You need to get over that, then.
> It used to really bother my husband if he made food and people din't like
it.
> But he was making things HE liked, and giving people big servings. He
got
> over it and everything's better. What he does now is announce if food's
ready,
> wait a while, and pack up leftovers into individual packages. If it's not
> eating in the next day or so he takes them to work for lunches. I tend
to only
> make what i know someone wants or likes. Kirby doesn't like pork, so we
have
> it when he's not home. Holly likes spinach. The boys don't. If it's just
> me, Keith and Holly, we have spinach merrily together!
>
> We had to get loose, flexible, expecting happiness.
>
> -= It seems to me that my children are
> becoming more dissatisfied rather than less so as I pull away limits. I
> really do want to give them more choice and I want to accept their choices
> with equal grace, but I don't want to be around demanding children who
can't
> be pleased. -=-
>
> Don't do it if it's not working.
> You might do better with the rules. If you don't want to change or you
don't
> think it will work, change course. We can't guarantee you anything.
We're
> offering options, but you don't have to choose any of them at all.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Andrea Burlingame
<<Are you saying that my kids are asking for tv because it annoys me? I
don't
think this is the case.>>
Oh, no, of course not. I was thinking that if they sense your disapproval,
then they too are going to be conflicted, and are not really making choices
of their own then. I was thinking that maybe it was prolonging their need
to 'test boundaries'. Just a thought though.
But I also wonder if that isn't the case with most of the things you are
finding frustrating.
===================
It could be that my kids just haven't had a long enough time without limits
on tv and sweets, etc and real freedom to trust me fully and to get some of
that stuff out of the systems a bit, so it's not so important to them. I'm
finding it difficult to balance my emotions on this.
On the one hand, I want them to make their own choices On the other hand,
I'm afraid that even my hope of them doing these things is causing
discontent in our household and certainly in my heart. Is it wrong to also
hope they'll NOT want to eat so much food, sugary and otherwise, that has
little or no nutritional value, and NOT want to watch tv to the exclusion of
so many other things? How can I balance my desire to see them physically
healthy with my desire for them to be emotionally healthy?
~Andrea
don't
think this is the case.>>
Oh, no, of course not. I was thinking that if they sense your disapproval,
then they too are going to be conflicted, and are not really making choices
of their own then. I was thinking that maybe it was prolonging their need
to 'test boundaries'. Just a thought though.
But I also wonder if that isn't the case with most of the things you are
finding frustrating.
===================
It could be that my kids just haven't had a long enough time without limits
on tv and sweets, etc and real freedom to trust me fully and to get some of
that stuff out of the systems a bit, so it's not so important to them. I'm
finding it difficult to balance my emotions on this.
On the one hand, I want them to make their own choices On the other hand,
I'm afraid that even my hope of them doing these things is causing
discontent in our household and certainly in my heart. Is it wrong to also
hope they'll NOT want to eat so much food, sugary and otherwise, that has
little or no nutritional value, and NOT want to watch tv to the exclusion of
so many other things? How can I balance my desire to see them physically
healthy with my desire for them to be emotionally healthy?
~Andrea