Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall

>O.K., this is an serious, honest question and not an attempt to start any >war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think feminism >has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of feminism, we don't >have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we gained?
>
>Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}

Hmmmm...Interesting question Lynda. Now I have to think right? OY! After the week I have had I don't know if I am functional enough to use brainpower, and now both my kids are sick and I am taking turns running between rooms to administer medicine, adjust the steamers, kiss sweaty little brows and soothe fussy, achey bodies.

What did feminism get us? Nothing can be completely attributed to feminism, I think, but more a kaliedescope of factors of the particular times for each thing. However, I think I can name a few things that I think feminism had a definate impact and motivating affect upon. For one thing it got more women in the door of traditionally "masculine" professions. I have family members (like my aforementioned sisters) and friends who have benefitted greatly from this by being able to persue the career of their choice and talents. Not to mention how we ALL benefit for having that extra resource of creativity and intelligence in important fields like science, art, engineering, etc.

For another thing, it made us more aware and able to help women in domestic violence situations, who were before shamed into silence.

For a third, and this is a biggee for me, it gave more freedom to women in religious matters, in particular made Goddess worship and practices more available because it celebrated women, unlike most masculine religions. While religions with a central Goddess figure may have gotten a big boost due to the fact that they fit into the PR effort of the feminism movement and the idea to glorify what women were, I benefitted from freedom to access these traditions, learn and worship how I saw fit. Which is not so much totally Goddess centered as it is God and Goddess centered, the duality, the balance.

Hmmm...what else.....It gave us more freedom to express ourselves through dress rather than being so strictly tied to the madates of fashion and it's skewed morality as in ages past. (Women, in pants!! GASP!)

And how about more awareness about womens issues in health? Not only are women's mental and emotional states less jokes and more recognized for their uniqueness and treated as such, but health issues that were largely ignored or mistreated (Pregnancy-Birth issues, Breast Cancer, PMS, Menopause, etc) are now getting the attention and respect that they deserve.

That's all I can come up with at this late hour, off the top of my head, with sick kids to worry about. Yes, every social reformatting gives us pros and cons. But we also LEARN. We learn what was bad about the old ways, and what we liked, what was BETTER. Then we have the information, the ability and the FREEDOM to choose how to combine the old and the new into a satisfying whole. Each new change brings learning, and may it never stop!

Nanci K.



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Sheri Ponzi

Here are just a few of the things feminism got us...

First feminist movement:
the right to vote
the right to own property
the right to have custody and control of our children
laws against beating women

Second wave:
marital rape laws-)until the mid 80s it was legal in many states for a man
to rape his wife)
protection from being fired for being pregnant
closing the wage gap
awareness of and better reactions on the part of law enforcement to battering
health reserach is now beign perfornmed on women instead of exclusively
men(did you know that until very recently all breast caner research was
done on men so we have no idea if its actually valid for women!!??)

I could list volumes more, but I have to go on an unschooling adventure
with my kids...

I hope this attack of feminism stops soon. I think there are problmes in
this country and even with some people who call themselves feminist but I
strongly belive they stem from the corpoate culture that has invadewd this
country. Its all about profits dontcha know.

Sheri


At 10:30 PM 6/24/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>O.K., this is an serious, honest question and not an attempt to start any
>war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think feminism
>has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of feminism, we don't
>have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we gained?
>>
>>Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}
>
>Hmmmm...Interesting question Lynda. Now I have to think right? OY!
After the week I have had I don't know if I am functional enough to use
brainpower, and now both my kids are sick and I am taking turns running
between rooms to administer medicine, adjust the steamers, kiss sweaty
little brows and soothe fussy, achey bodies.
>
>What did feminism get us? Nothing can be completely attributed to
feminism, I think, but more a kaliedescope of factors of the particular
times for each thing. However, I think I can name a few things that I
think feminism had a definate impact and motivating affect upon. For one
thing it got more women in the door of traditionally "masculine"
professions. I have family members (like my aforementioned sisters) and
friends who have benefitted greatly from this by being able to persue the
career of their choice and talents. Not to mention how we ALL benefit for
having that extra resource of creativity and intelligence in important
fields like science, art, engineering, etc.
>
>For another thing, it made us more aware and able to help women in
domestic violence situations, who were before shamed into silence.
>
>For a third, and this is a biggee for me, it gave more freedom to women in
religious matters, in particular made Goddess worship and practices more
available because it celebrated women, unlike most masculine religions.
While religions with a central Goddess figure may have gotten a big boost
due to the fact that they fit into the PR effort of the feminism movement
and the idea to glorify what women were, I benefitted from freedom to
access these traditions, learn and worship how I saw fit. Which is not so
much totally Goddess centered as it is God and Goddess centered, the
duality, the balance.
>
>Hmmm...what else.....It gave us more freedom to express ourselves through
dress rather than being so strictly tied to the madates of fashion and it's
skewed morality as in ages past. (Women, in pants!! GASP!)
>
>And how about more awareness about womens issues in health? Not only are
women's mental and emotional states less jokes and more recognized for
their uniqueness and treated as such, but health issues that were largely
ignored or mistreated (Pregnancy-Birth issues, Breast Cancer, PMS,
Menopause, etc) are now getting the attention and respect that they deserve.
>
>That's all I can come up with at this late hour, off the top of my head,
with sick kids to worry about. Yes, every social reformatting gives us
pros and cons. But we also LEARN. We learn what was bad about the old
ways, and what we liked, what was BETTER. Then we have the information,
the ability and the FREEDOM to choose how to combine the old and the new
into a satisfying whole. Each new change brings learning, and may it never
stop!
>
>Nanci K.
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm) today!
>Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
>
>
>******************************************************
>Make FREE long distance phone calls online!
>Click here to use PhoneFREE.com today!
>http://adserv.internetfuel.com/cgi-bin/newredirect.cgi?AD=EMAIL-phonefree
>******************************************************
>
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>contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sheri Ponzi
mailto:purple_sage@...
http://sites.netscape.net/sponzi
Beaded bowls from MoonBead Treasures available at Motherbeads
http://www.motherbeads.com/guest_artists.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Holly Atchison

I started to respond to this question and then I read Nanci's response.
Very well put Nanci, I couldn't have said it better myself. Also, home your
dch are better soon!

Holly


>From: "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-k4of5@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
>Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:30:35 -0700
>
> >O.K., this is an serious, honest question and not an attempt to start any
> >war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think
>feminism >has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of feminism,
>we don't >have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we gained?
> >
> >Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}
>
>Hmmmm...Interesting question Lynda. Now I have to think right? OY! After
>the week I have had I don't know if I am functional enough to use
>brainpower, and now both my kids are sick and I am taking turns running
>between rooms to administer medicine, adjust the steamers, kiss sweaty
>little brows and soothe fussy, achey bodies.
>
>What did feminism get us? Nothing can be completely attributed to
>feminism, I think, but more a kaliedescope of factors of the particular
>times for each thing. However, I think I can name a few things that I
>think feminism had a definate impact and motivating affect upon. For one
>thing it got more women in the door of traditionally "masculine"
>professions. I have family members (like my aforementioned sisters) and
>friends who have benefitted greatly from this by being able to persue the
>career of their choice and talents. Not to mention how we ALL benefit for
>having that extra resource of creativity and intelligence in important
>fields like science, art, engineering, etc.
>
>For another thing, it made us more aware and able to help women in domestic
>violence situations, who were before shamed into silence.
>
>For a third, and this is a biggee for me, it gave more freedom to women in
>religious matters, in particular made Goddess worship and practices more
>available because it celebrated women, unlike most masculine religions.
>While religions with a central Goddess figure may have gotten a big boost
>due to the fact that they fit into the PR effort of the feminism movement
>and the idea to glorify what women were, I benefitted from freedom to
>access these traditions, learn and worship how I saw fit. Which is not so
>much totally Goddess centered as it is God and Goddess centered, the
>duality, the balance.
>
>Hmmm...what else.....It gave us more freedom to express ourselves through
>dress rather than being so strictly tied to the madates of fashion and it's
>skewed morality as in ages past. (Women, in pants!! GASP!)
>
>And how about more awareness about womens issues in health? Not only are
>women's mental and emotional states less jokes and more recognized for
>their uniqueness and treated as such, but health issues that were largely
>ignored or mistreated (Pregnancy-Birth issues, Breast Cancer, PMS,
>Menopause, etc) are now getting the attention and respect that they
>deserve.
>
>That's all I can come up with at this late hour, off the top of my head,
>with sick kids to worry about. Yes, every social reformatting gives us
>pros and cons. But we also LEARN. We learn what was bad about the old
>ways, and what we liked, what was BETTER. Then we have the information,
>the ability and the FREEDOM to choose how to combine the old and the new
>into a satisfying whole. Each new change brings learning, and may it never
>stop!
>
>Nanci K.
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm) today!
>Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
>
>
>******************************************************
>Make FREE long distance phone calls online!
>Click here to use PhoneFREE.com today!
>http://adserv.internetfuel.com/cgi-bin/newredirect.cgi?AD=EMAIL-phonefree
>******************************************************
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest
>price. New FREE service!
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>
>

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Holly Atchison

oops! I meant to say Hope your children are feeling better. =)


>From: "Holly Atchison" <HollyAtch@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:39:28 AKDT
>
>I started to respond to this question and then I read Nanci's response.
>Very well put Nanci, I couldn't have said it better myself. Also, home
>your
>dch are better soon!
>
>Holly
>
>
> >From: "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-k4of5@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: RE: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> >Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:30:35 -0700
> >
> > >O.K., this is an serious, honest question and not an attempt to start
>any
> > >war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think
> >feminism >has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of
>feminism,
> >we don't >have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we gained?
> > >
> > >Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}
> >
> >Hmmmm...Interesting question Lynda. Now I have to think right? OY!
>After
> >the week I have had I don't know if I am functional enough to use
> >brainpower, and now both my kids are sick and I am taking turns running
> >between rooms to administer medicine, adjust the steamers, kiss sweaty
> >little brows and soothe fussy, achey bodies.
> >
> >What did feminism get us? Nothing can be completely attributed to
> >feminism, I think, but more a kaliedescope of factors of the particular
> >times for each thing. However, I think I can name a few things that I
> >think feminism had a definate impact and motivating affect upon. For one
> >thing it got more women in the door of traditionally "masculine"
> >professions. I have family members (like my aforementioned sisters) and
> >friends who have benefitted greatly from this by being able to persue the
> >career of their choice and talents. Not to mention how we ALL benefit
>for
> >having that extra resource of creativity and intelligence in important
> >fields like science, art, engineering, etc.
> >
> >For another thing, it made us more aware and able to help women in
>domestic
> >violence situations, who were before shamed into silence.
> >
> >For a third, and this is a biggee for me, it gave more freedom to women
>in
> >religious matters, in particular made Goddess worship and practices more
> >available because it celebrated women, unlike most masculine religions.
> >While religions with a central Goddess figure may have gotten a big boost
> >due to the fact that they fit into the PR effort of the feminism movement
> >and the idea to glorify what women were, I benefitted from freedom to
> >access these traditions, learn and worship how I saw fit. Which is not
>so
> >much totally Goddess centered as it is God and Goddess centered, the
> >duality, the balance.
> >
> >Hmmm...what else.....It gave us more freedom to express ourselves through
> >dress rather than being so strictly tied to the madates of fashion and
>it's
> >skewed morality as in ages past. (Women, in pants!! GASP!)
> >
> >And how about more awareness about womens issues in health? Not only are
> >women's mental and emotional states less jokes and more recognized for
> >their uniqueness and treated as such, but health issues that were largely
> >ignored or mistreated (Pregnancy-Birth issues, Breast Cancer, PMS,
> >Menopause, etc) are now getting the attention and respect that they
> >deserve.
> >
> >That's all I can come up with at this late hour, off the top of my head,
> >with sick kids to worry about. Yes, every social reformatting gives us
> >pros and cons. But we also LEARN. We learn what was bad about the old
> >ways, and what we liked, what was BETTER. Then we have the information,
> >the ability and the FREEDOM to choose how to combine the old and the new
> >into a satisfying whole. Each new change brings learning, and may it
>never
> >stop!
> >
> >Nanci K.
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm) today!
> >Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
> >
> >
> >******************************************************
> >Make FREE long distance phone calls online!
> >Click here to use PhoneFREE.com today!
> >http://adserv.internetfuel.com/cgi-bin/newredirect.cgi?AD=EMAIL-phonefree
> >******************************************************
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Debra Caruso

Good morning holly,want you to know I shipped your book out Friday
am.deb

Holly Atchison wrote:
>
> oops! I meant to say Hope your children are feeling better. =)
>
> >From: "Holly Atchison" <HollyAtch@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: RE: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:39:28 AKDT
> >
> >I started to respond to this question and then I read Nanci's response.
> >Very well put Nanci, I couldn't have said it better myself. Also, home
> >your
> >dch are better soon!
> >
> >Holly
> >
> >
> > >From: "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-k4of5@...>
> > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >To: [email protected]
> > >Subject: RE: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> > >Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:30:35 -0700
> > >
> > > >O.K., this is an serious, honest question and not an attempt to start
> >any
> > > >war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think
> > >feminism >has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of
> >feminism,
> > >we don't >have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we gained?
> > > >
> > > >Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}
> > >
> > >Hmmmm...Interesting question Lynda. Now I have to think right? OY!
> >After
> > >the week I have had I don't know if I am functional enough to use
> > >brainpower, and now both my kids are sick and I am taking turns running
> > >between rooms to administer medicine, adjust the steamers, kiss sweaty
> > >little brows and soothe fussy, achey bodies.
> > >
> > >What did feminism get us? Nothing can be completely attributed to
> > >feminism, I think, but more a kaliedescope of factors of the particular
> > >times for each thing. However, I think I can name a few things that I
> > >think feminism had a definate impact and motivating affect upon. For one
> > >thing it got more women in the door of traditionally "masculine"
> > >professions. I have family members (like my aforementioned sisters) and
> > >friends who have benefitted greatly from this by being able to persue the
> > >career of their choice and talents. Not to mention how we ALL benefit
> >for
> > >having that extra resource of creativity and intelligence in important
> > >fields like science, art, engineering, etc.
> > >
> > >For another thing, it made us more aware and able to help women in
> >domestic
> > >violence situations, who were before shamed into silence.
> > >
> > >For a third, and this is a biggee for me, it gave more freedom to women
> >in
> > >religious matters, in particular made Goddess worship and practices more
> > >available because it celebrated women, unlike most masculine religions.
> > >While religions with a central Goddess figure may have gotten a big boost
> > >due to the fact that they fit into the PR effort of the feminism movement
> > >and the idea to glorify what women were, I benefitted from freedom to
> > >access these traditions, learn and worship how I saw fit. Which is not
> >so
> > >much totally Goddess centered as it is God and Goddess centered, the
> > >duality, the balance.
> > >
> > >Hmmm...what else.....It gave us more freedom to express ourselves through
> > >dress rather than being so strictly tied to the madates of fashion and
> >it's
> > >skewed morality as in ages past. (Women, in pants!! GASP!)
> > >
> > >And how about more awareness about womens issues in health? Not only are
> > >women's mental and emotional states less jokes and more recognized for
> > >their uniqueness and treated as such, but health issues that were largely
> > >ignored or mistreated (Pregnancy-Birth issues, Breast Cancer, PMS,
> > >Menopause, etc) are now getting the attention and respect that they
> > >deserve.
> > >
> > >That's all I can come up with at this late hour, off the top of my head,
> > >with sick kids to worry about. Yes, every social reformatting gives us
> > >pros and cons. But we also LEARN. We learn what was bad about the old
> > >ways, and what we liked, what was BETTER. Then we have the information,
> > >the ability and the FREEDOM to choose how to combine the old and the new
> > >into a satisfying whole. Each new change brings learning, and may it
> >never
> > >stop!
> > >
> > >Nanci K.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > >Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm) today!
> > >Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >******************************************************
> > >Make FREE long distance phone calls online!
> > >Click here to use PhoneFREE.com today!
> > >http://adserv.internetfuel.com/cgi-bin/newredirect.cgi?AD=EMAIL-phonefree
> > >******************************************************
> > >
> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,
> > >contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest
> > >price. New FREE service!
> > >http://click.egroups.com/1/5746/14/_/448294/_/961914612/
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> > >
> > >Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > >Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > >To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
> > >
> > >
> >
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> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
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> >
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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/00 7:43:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
purple_sage@... writes:

<< I hope this attack of feminism stops soon. I think there are problmes in
this country and even with some people who call themselves feminist but I
strongly belive they stem from the corpoate culture that has invadewd this
country. Its all about profits dontcha know. >>

yes, i do know... you're dead right! I too am in full support of feminist
activism... and i'm also a sahm who goes to school too...

Holly Atchison

ThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyou! I'll keep an eye out at the post office.

Holly =)

>From: Debra Caruso <mama@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:00:45 -0400
>
>Good morning holly,want you to know I shipped your book out Friday
>am.deb
>
>Holly Atchison wrote:
> >
> > oops! I meant to say Hope your children are feeling better. =)
> >
> > >From: "Holly Atchison" <HollyAtch@...>
> > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >To: [email protected]
> > >Subject: RE: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> > >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:39:28 AKDT
> > >
> > >I started to respond to this question and then I read Nanci's response.
> > >Very well put Nanci, I couldn't have said it better myself. Also, home
> > >your
> > >dch are better soon!
> > >
> > >Holly
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-k4of5@...>
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: [email protected]
> > > >Subject: RE: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> > > >Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:30:35 -0700
> > > >
> > > > >O.K., this is an serious, honest question and not an attempt to
>start
> > >any
> > > > >war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think
> > > >feminism >has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of
> > >feminism,
> > > >we don't >have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we
>gained?
> > > > >
> > > > >Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}
> > > >
> > > >Hmmmm...Interesting question Lynda. Now I have to think right? OY!
> > >After
> > > >the week I have had I don't know if I am functional enough to use
> > > >brainpower, and now both my kids are sick and I am taking turns
>running
> > > >between rooms to administer medicine, adjust the steamers, kiss
>sweaty
> > > >little brows and soothe fussy, achey bodies.
> > > >
> > > >What did feminism get us? Nothing can be completely attributed to
> > > >feminism, I think, but more a kaliedescope of factors of the
>particular
> > > >times for each thing. However, I think I can name a few things that
>I
> > > >think feminism had a definate impact and motivating affect upon. For
>one
> > > >thing it got more women in the door of traditionally "masculine"
> > > >professions. I have family members (like my aforementioned sisters)
>and
> > > >friends who have benefitted greatly from this by being able to persue
>the
> > > >career of their choice and talents. Not to mention how we ALL
>benefit
> > >for
> > > >having that extra resource of creativity and intelligence in
>important
> > > >fields like science, art, engineering, etc.
> > > >
> > > >For another thing, it made us more aware and able to help women in
> > >domestic
> > > >violence situations, who were before shamed into silence.
> > > >
> > > >For a third, and this is a biggee for me, it gave more freedom to
>women
> > >in
> > > >religious matters, in particular made Goddess worship and practices
>more
> > > >available because it celebrated women, unlike most masculine
>religions.
> > > >While religions with a central Goddess figure may have gotten a big
>boost
> > > >due to the fact that they fit into the PR effort of the feminism
>movement
> > > >and the idea to glorify what women were, I benefitted from freedom to
> > > >access these traditions, learn and worship how I saw fit. Which is
>not
> > >so
> > > >much totally Goddess centered as it is God and Goddess centered, the
> > > >duality, the balance.
> > > >
> > > >Hmmm...what else.....It gave us more freedom to express ourselves
>through
> > > >dress rather than being so strictly tied to the madates of fashion
>and
> > >it's
> > > >skewed morality as in ages past. (Women, in pants!! GASP!)
> > > >
> > > >And how about more awareness about womens issues in health? Not only
>are
> > > >women's mental and emotional states less jokes and more recognized
>for
> > > >their uniqueness and treated as such, but health issues that were
>largely
> > > >ignored or mistreated (Pregnancy-Birth issues, Breast Cancer, PMS,
> > > >Menopause, etc) are now getting the attention and respect that they
> > > >deserve.
> > > >
> > > >That's all I can come up with at this late hour, off the top of my
>head,
> > > >with sick kids to worry about. Yes, every social reformatting gives
>us
> > > >pros and cons. But we also LEARN. We learn what was bad about the
>old
> > > >ways, and what we liked, what was BETTER. Then we have the
>information,
> > > >the ability and the FREEDOM to choose how to combine the old and the
>new
> > > >into a satisfying whole. Each new change brings learning, and may it
> > >never
> > > >stop!
> > > >
> > > >Nanci K.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm)
>today!
> > > >Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >******************************************************
> > > >Make FREE long distance phone calls online!
> > > >Click here to use PhoneFREE.com today!
> > >
> >http://adserv.internetfuel.com/cgi-bin/newredirect.cgi?AD=EMAIL-phonefree
> > > >******************************************************
> > > >
> > >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance,
>maids,
> > > >contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the
>lowest
> > > >price. New FREE service!
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> > >
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> > > >Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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> > > >
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> > >
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I always thought I WAS equal to a man and never acted any differently.
Having never been denied any job I ever applied for or most of the things in
life that I wanted to do I cannot see how feminism gave me the equality that
I already thought I had. I just didn't let the idea that I was a woman stop
me from being a human being first. I will continue to do what I want to do
regardless of whether society thinks it's a "man thing or woman thing". I
think it's our own perceptions and the way we allow other's to dictate what
we can do in terms of accomplishments. Rules and Regulations for me are like
a red flag to a bull. If there is a reason I'm not suppose to do something,
that's a good enough reason to do it, especially if it pertains to something
that men have done exclusively and I'm interested.

I didn't know I couldn't do anything I wanted. I don't let people stop me or
stand in my way if there is something I want to accomplish. Maybe I was just
raised different and that's not the norm?

Dawn F

Lisa Bugg

> I always thought I WAS equal to a man and never acted any differently.
> Having never been denied any job I ever applied for or most of the things
in
> life that I wanted to do I cannot see how feminism gave me the equality
that
> I already thought I had. I just didn't let the idea that I was a woman
stop
> me from being a human being first. >.

You must not be old enough to remember the days when they would say out
loud, we don't hire women, period.

I spent some time with my 77 year old aunt a few weeks ago. I love for her
to tell me the stories of her life. She was an unmarried 20 something with
a mind of her own. She decided she wanted to buy 4 lots over near her
parents house, so she could build her own house and build one to sell. My
grandfather was a carpenter and he had agreed to help build the houses. She
went to the bank with the down payment saved. She asked for a loan for the
rest of the property. She even took my grandfather with her. She called
him by name, they knew one another, but the answer still was, "we don't lend
money to unmarried women."

So, my aunt got up, made a deal with the folks who owned the land and two
years later came back for a loan to build another house. This time she was
engaged and that sufficed. She was engaged to a man who could neither read
nor write well. Her retirement is the investment from the proceeds of the
sale of those homes.

I turn 40 this year and my life has not been too hampered by the male only
club that used to run every occupation, more or less, but to say that the
feminist movement has done nothing for me, is very short sighted. When you
look back you must look back at least 100-150 years, then look for patterns
of change.

Lisa

Lisa Bugg

Dawn,
Have you read Backlash? by Susan Faludi You might find it interesting.
Or books by Carol Gillian, In a Different Voice is good.

LisaKK
----- Original Message -----
From: <NumoAstro@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us


> So the majority of what it's got women are legal things? Not spiritual or
> emotional things?
>
> Dawn F
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Buy Long Distance with your GROUP and SAVE!!!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4123/14/_/448294/_/961951609/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
>
>

[email protected]

So the majority of what it's got women are legal things? Not spiritual or
emotional things?

Dawn F

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/00 4:43:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
purple_sage@... writes:

<< I hope this attack of feminism stops soon. I think there are problmes in
this country and even with some people who call themselves feminist but I
strongly belive they stem from the corpoate culture that has invadewd this
country. Its all about profits dontcha know.
>>

Sheri,
I totally agree. I hardly post anymore because of busy things going on
in our lives but this issue got my attention. I think people need to
separate feminism, the issue of women having the same rights as men, from
other issues. Our culture has become more materialistic and work oriented
and that has had disastrous effects. It is sad that kids are virtually
raising themselves in many homes, including the affluent ones. But I think
we need to blame our own increased desire for MORE along with (and
especially) the corporate world.
I read a book a couple of years ago called "History of Women in
America," that really brought home to me the importance of what feminists in
this country accomplished. Would any of us really want to go back to a time
when women couldn't vote, domestic abuse and marital rape weren't crimes,
women couldn't go to college, women could only get low paying jobs and men
had the "real" jobs? What about women who choose to not have children or
can't? What about women who have kids in their 20s and have very different
lives in their 40s? Isn't it a good thing that they can live more as they
choose, including being able to work for pay at something that challenges
them and pays them well?

Lucy in Calif.

[email protected]

In a message dated 06/25/2000 4:37:30 PM !!!First Boot!!!, NumoAstro@...
writes:

<< Maybe I was just
raised different and that's not the norm?

Dawn F
>>


Maybe you were just raised in a time when you could walk into a bank and get
a loan without your husband having to OK it? Maybe you were allowed or even
encouraged to become educated? Etc. Maybe you are the beneficiary of the
attitude of acceptance of women's abilities and recognition of women's rights
that are among the goals of the feminist movement?

Nance

Debra Caruso

YOur welcome your welcome your welcome!!!!Deb :)

Holly Atchison wrote:
>
> ThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyou! I'll keep an eye out at the post office.
>
> Holly =)
>
> >From: Debra Caruso <mama@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:00:45 -0400
> >
> >Good morning holly,want you to know I shipped your book out Friday
> >am.deb
> >
> >Holly Atchison wrote:
> > >
> > > oops! I meant to say Hope your children are feeling better. =)
> > >
> > > >From: "Holly Atchison" <HollyAtch@...>
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: [email protected]
> > > >Subject: RE: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> > > >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:39:28 AKDT
> > > >
> > > >I started to respond to this question and then I read Nanci's response.
> > > >Very well put Nanci, I couldn't have said it better myself. Also, home
> > > >your
> > > >dch are better soon!
> > > >
> > > >Holly
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-k4of5@...>
> > > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > > >To: [email protected]
> > > > >Subject: RE: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> > > > >Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:30:35 -0700
> > > > >
> > > > > >O.K., this is an serious, honest question and not an attempt to
> >start
> > > >any
> > > > > >war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think
> > > > >feminism >has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of
> > > >feminism,
> > > > >we don't >have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we
> >gained?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}
> > > > >
> > > > >Hmmmm...Interesting question Lynda. Now I have to think right? OY!
> > > >After
> > > > >the week I have had I don't know if I am functional enough to use
> > > > >brainpower, and now both my kids are sick and I am taking turns
> >running
> > > > >between rooms to administer medicine, adjust the steamers, kiss
> >sweaty
> > > > >little brows and soothe fussy, achey bodies.
> > > > >
> > > > >What did feminism get us? Nothing can be completely attributed to
> > > > >feminism, I think, but more a kaliedescope of factors of the
> >particular
> > > > >times for each thing. However, I think I can name a few things that
> >I
> > > > >think feminism had a definate impact and motivating affect upon. For
> >one
> > > > >thing it got more women in the door of traditionally "masculine"
> > > > >professions. I have family members (like my aforementioned sisters)
> >and
> > > > >friends who have benefitted greatly from this by being able to persue
> >the
> > > > >career of their choice and talents. Not to mention how we ALL
> >benefit
> > > >for
> > > > >having that extra resource of creativity and intelligence in
> >important
> > > > >fields like science, art, engineering, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > >For another thing, it made us more aware and able to help women in
> > > >domestic
> > > > >violence situations, who were before shamed into silence.
> > > > >
> > > > >For a third, and this is a biggee for me, it gave more freedom to
> >women
> > > >in
> > > > >religious matters, in particular made Goddess worship and practices
> >more
> > > > >available because it celebrated women, unlike most masculine
> >religions.
> > > > >While religions with a central Goddess figure may have gotten a big
> >boost
> > > > >due to the fact that they fit into the PR effort of the feminism
> >movement
> > > > >and the idea to glorify what women were, I benefitted from freedom to
> > > > >access these traditions, learn and worship how I saw fit. Which is
> >not
> > > >so
> > > > >much totally Goddess centered as it is God and Goddess centered, the
> > > > >duality, the balance.
> > > > >
> > > > >Hmmm...what else.....It gave us more freedom to express ourselves
> >through
> > > > >dress rather than being so strictly tied to the madates of fashion
> >and
> > > >it's
> > > > >skewed morality as in ages past. (Women, in pants!! GASP!)
> > > > >
> > > > >And how about more awareness about womens issues in health? Not only
> >are
> > > > >women's mental and emotional states less jokes and more recognized
> >for
> > > > >their uniqueness and treated as such, but health issues that were
> >largely
> > > > >ignored or mistreated (Pregnancy-Birth issues, Breast Cancer, PMS,
> > > > >Menopause, etc) are now getting the attention and respect that they
> > > > >deserve.
> > > > >
> > > > >That's all I can come up with at this late hour, off the top of my
> >head,
> > > > >with sick kids to worry about. Yes, every social reformatting gives
> >us
> > > > >pros and cons. But we also LEARN. We learn what was bad about the
> >old
> > > > >ways, and what we liked, what was BETTER. Then we have the
> >information,
> > > > >the ability and the FREEDOM to choose how to combine the old and the
> >new
> > > > >into a satisfying whole. Each new change brings learning, and may it
> > > >never
> > > > >stop!
> > > > >
> > > > >Nanci K.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm)
> >today!
> > > > >Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >******************************************************
> > > > >Make FREE long distance phone calls online!
> > > > >Click here to use PhoneFREE.com today!
> > > >
> > >http://adserv.internetfuel.com/cgi-bin/newredirect.cgi?AD=EMAIL-phonefree
> > > > >******************************************************
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance,
> >maids,
> > > > >contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the
> >lowest
> > > > >price. New FREE service!
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> > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
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[email protected]

Actually it was my father that encouraged me to do anything I wanted career
and lifewise and be whatever I want to be. He told me that no one could stop
me as long a I believed in what I was doing. The aunt story is a great
example... So they wouldn't give her the money, she found a way round it...
What a resourceful woman. She still got what she wanted and there's a great
story to pass on to other women about persisting in following your dreams.

I also think it's different in other countries. Not having grown up in the
bubble of America and having lived in several other countries in Europe and
Asia it's interesting to see how other lifestyles work. I've now been in
American for 15 years (yes I turn 41 this year) and this country is actually
quite backwards in a lot of ways.

Dawn F

[email protected]

In a message dated 06/25/2000 4:48:16 PM !!!First Boot!!!, NumoAstro@...
writes:

<< So the majority of what it's got women are legal things? Not spiritual or
emotional things?

Dawn F
>>


Well, I wouldn't say that.

I would say a great deal of our self-perception and how others treat and
perceive us has changed over the last generation or 2 and this is blended
with the changes that feminism helped to bring about.

Nance

[email protected]

In a message dated 06/25/2000 4:48:24 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
LisaBugg@... writes:

<<
I turn 40 this year and my life has not been too hampered by the male only
club that used to run every occupation, more or less, but to say that the
feminist movement has done nothing for me, is very short sighted. When you
look back you must look back at least 100-150 years, then look for patterns
of change.

Lisa
>>


Another tiny example:

Although I am not an engineer, I was in the 2nd (!) class of women to be
admitted at a major university to their engineering school.

I am 43 and this was in the mid-70s.

It seems like a long time ago but it wasn't really, in the long term.

Nance

[email protected]

In a message dated 06/25/2000 5:02:23 PM !!!First Boot!!!, NumoAstro@...
writes:

<<
I also think it's different in other countries. Not having grown up in the
bubble of America and having lived in several other countries in Europe and
Asia it's interesting to see how other lifestyles work. I've now been in
American for 15 years (yes I turn 41 this year) and this country is actually
quite backwards in a lot of ways.

Dawn F

-------------- >>


We're working on it! :)

Nance

Debra Caruso

As the adult survivor of abuse,sexual,physical and emotional at the nads
of my bio dad,also my dads dad molested me,I was raped by a male psych
at age 21.I have to thank Feminism for giving me my voice back.I had
lost it as a young girl(age 12)I also learned that for once my needs
mattered.Over the years I have learned that my needs are important.I
have had to unlearn all the crappy wrong messages I learned growing up.
My father was a misoganist,hated women,still does.It took me 30 year to
realize being a woman was not a bad thing.Over the past 3 years I am
enjoying for the first time in my life truly being a woman.
I have never let me being female stop me from doing what I want.I also
love being treated special by my husband.I also will speak out if some
other male is acting like an idiot to me.
I have raised 4 males which really has made me grow and changed my view
on men in general.For years due to my background I hated men.When I met
my present husband 15 years ago,I couldn't deal with the fact he was so
nice,good and kind to me.He has taught me not all men are jerks,and I
have strived to raise my sons as loving,sensitive ,males.They all do
laundry,cook,clean,and help whenever I need it.
I don't want to be a man,I love being a women,I love the way my husband
with his maleness completes my very essence.....Now there have been
times when i have had to set hubby straight!The great thing is,he
listens,he may get pissed off at first and close me out,but than he
thinks about it.
sOrry for the ramble,just had to get some thoughts out ....Deb :)







marbleface@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 06/25/2000 4:48:16 PM !!!First Boot!!!, NumoAstro@...
> writes:
>
> << So the majority of what it's got women are legal things? Not spiritual or
> emotional things?
>
> Dawn F
> >>
>
> Well, I wouldn't say that.
>
> I would say a great deal of our self-perception and how others treat and
> perceive us has changed over the last generation or 2 and this is blended
> with the changes that feminism helped to bring about.
>
> Nance
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> 1. Fill in the brief application
> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
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> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/00 9:48:11 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
NumoAstro@... writes:

> So the majority of what it's got women are legal things? Not spiritual or
> emotional things?

I sincerely hope so! It was a movement for laws. If we have to wait on those
for spiritual or emotional stuff we're in a world of hurt!

JMO

:-) Diane

Lynda

O.K., I guess I was asking more about the feminist movement as projected by
frothing at the mouth radicals. These are the folks who have campaigned
long and hard to make being a SAHM something to be ashamed of. These are
the folks that seem to think the "uniform" is grung. These are the folks
that think being a gentleman and being polite are a threat.

I come from a long line of fiercely independent, uppity females. My
grandmother owned a motorcycle when she was young (b. 1888), the first
woman to do so in NY and possibly the U.S. My step-dad's mother (b.1906)
was divorced and wearing pants in the 30's. My mother owned a motorcycle
and was free diving in the late 40's and early 50's. My other grandmother
(b. 1892) hoped a train with some girlfriends and came out to San Francisco
to find a husband and radical that she was, married an Indian. BUT, none
of them felt that to prove their independence they had to forsake their
femininity or give up personally raising their children. They made some
radical choices but never made their choices at the expense of others.

Lynda
----------
> From: Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall <tn-k4of5@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> Date: Saturday, June 24, 2000 10:30 PM
>
> >O.K., this is an serious, honest question and not an attempt to start
any >war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think
feminism >has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of feminism,
we don't >have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we gained?
> >
> >Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}
>
> Hmmmm...Interesting question Lynda. Now I have to think right? OY!
After the week I have had I don't know if I am functional enough to use
brainpower, and now both my kids are sick and I am taking turns running
between rooms to administer medicine, adjust the steamers, kiss sweaty
little brows and soothe fussy, achey bodies.
>
> What did feminism get us? Nothing can be completely attributed to
feminism, I think, but more a kaliedescope of factors of the particular
times for each thing. However, I think I can name a few things that I
think feminism had a definate impact and motivating affect upon. For one
thing it got more women in the door of traditionally "masculine"
professions. I have family members (like my aforementioned sisters) and
friends who have benefitted greatly from this by being able to persue the
career of their choice and talents. Not to mention how we ALL benefit for
having that extra resource of creativity and intelligence in important
fields like science, art, engineering, etc.
>
> For another thing, it made us more aware and able to help women in
domestic violence situations, who were before shamed into silence.
>
> For a third, and this is a biggee for me, it gave more freedom to women
in religious matters, in particular made Goddess worship and practices more
available because it celebrated women, unlike most masculine religions.
While religions with a central Goddess figure may have gotten a big boost
due to the fact that they fit into the PR effort of the feminism movement
and the idea to glorify what women were, I benefitted from freedom to
access these traditions, learn and worship how I saw fit. Which is not so
much totally Goddess centered as it is God and Goddess centered, the
duality, the balance.
>
> Hmmm...what else.....It gave us more freedom to express ourselves through
dress rather than being so strictly tied to the madates of fashion and it's
skewed morality as in ages past. (Women, in pants!! GASP!)
>
> And how about more awareness about womens issues in health? Not only are
women's mental and emotional states less jokes and more recognized for
their uniqueness and treated as such, but health issues that were largely
ignored or mistreated (Pregnancy-Birth issues, Breast Cancer, PMS,
Menopause, etc) are now getting the attention and respect that they
deserve.
>
> That's all I can come up with at this late hour, off the top of my head,
with sick kids to worry about. Yes, every social reformatting gives us
pros and cons. But we also LEARN. We learn what was bad about the old
ways, and what we liked, what was BETTER. Then we have the information,
the ability and the FREEDOM to choose how to combine the old and the new
into a satisfying whole. Each new change brings learning, and may it never
stop!
>
> Nanci K.
>
>
>
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Lynda

Well, you aren't the only one <g> I spent a lot of time with my
grandfather (b. 1866) whose mother was born in 1837. He taught me to use a
saw, pound a nail and aim at and get whatever my heart desired. He wanted
me to be like his mother! Grampa Charlie (b. 1902) taught me to fly fish.
Grampa Harry (b. 1905) told me that being a girl was better than being a
boy. Grampa Harry (b. 1894) taught me that should be proud of my heritage
and not take any "you know what" from anyone. My dad (b. 1926) taught me
how to work on motorcycles and cars and told me I could do anything my
heart desired. First hubby thought nothing of me training the horses or
taking off with the kidlets and putting 35,000 miles a year on my truck
hitting the show circuit. I've managed stores, run a ranch and worked at
any job I pleased. I was usually paid more than the men that had held the
jobs prior to my getting hired--why? because I did a better job!

I don't think the Feminist Movement of the 60's had any effect on those who
formed my views of what I could be or do. Nor did it help me get any of
the jobs I held.

So, Dawn, guess we were both born into the right families <g>

Lynda
----------
> From: NumoAstro@...
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000 9:35 AM
>
> I always thought I WAS equal to a man and never acted any differently.
> Having never been denied any job I ever applied for or most of the things
in
> life that I wanted to do I cannot see how feminism gave me the equality
that
> I already thought I had. I just didn't let the idea that I was a woman
stop
> me from being a human being first. I will continue to do what I want to
do
> regardless of whether society thinks it's a "man thing or woman thing".
I
> think it's our own perceptions and the way we allow other's to dictate
what
> we can do in terms of accomplishments. Rules and Regulations for me are
like
> a red flag to a bull. If there is a reason I'm not suppose to do
something,
> that's a good enough reason to do it, especially if it pertains to
something
> that men have done exclusively and I'm interested.
>
> I didn't know I couldn't do anything I wanted. I don't let people stop
me or
> stand in my way if there is something I want to accomplish. Maybe I was
just
> raised different and that's not the norm?
>
> Dawn F
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue.
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[email protected]

Lynda wrote:

> My other grandmother
> (b. 1892) hoped a train with some girlfriends and came out to San Francisco
> to find a husband and radical that she was, married an Indian.

Hey Lynda,

There is a bit of a discussion in the "letters to the editor" page of
our local paper, seems a reporter used the term "Indian" when
referring to a "Native American" and some white woman who has
three adopted children that are "Native Americans".

In your email you used the term "Indian" referring to your
Grandfather, who I believe is a Native American? Do any Indians
you know take offence at that term being used?


Sue

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[email protected]

Lynda,
Wow! My kids and I would love to meet you and your family! You should write a
book about your life and your grandpas' and great-grandma's lives!
Bridget

Dia Garland

I like your response Lynda! What a great family you have!

. >>BUT, none
> of them felt that to prove their independence they had to forsake their
> femininity or give up personally raising their children. They made some
> radical choices but never made their choices at the expense of others.<<

I especially like these two sentences. I think that is the difference
between feminism as an equality measure, and feminism as a radical hate
movement. Some of the more rabid feminists have gone beyond equality to
superiority.

Dia

Bonnie Painter

I have to agree with Bridget. Your family sounds fascinating. This could
be your "new" at-home business...


>From: bctswim@...
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:48:35 EDT
>
>Lynda,
>Wow! My kids and I would love to meet you and your family! You should write
>a
>book about your life and your grandpas' and great-grandma's lives!
>Bridget

________________________________________________________________________
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Lynda

I've started the book and we (hubby, kidlets and I) at first decided to
call it "The Names Have Been Changed To Protect The Guilty." <g> After
sitting down to do some more writing, I decided (with due input from my
homegrown critics <g>) that it had better be two books, the above named
book for all the "Billy Beer" type skeletons in the family closet and the
mil from h*ll and then one about the grandparents and the two great
grandmothers who survived a massacre. We couldn't decide which book to put
1st hubby's grandmother in--she came out in a covered wagon and called
herself a Missouri mule AND was married 5 times and when she died she still
had one of the two bullets in her that her 3rd husband put in her before he
jumped on a train and disappeared. Or maybe I should write for the soaps
cause I'm not thinking most folks are going to believe some of the antics
the ancestors got up to except maybe on one of those "Strangers Than
Fiction" shows!

Lynda

----------
> From: bctswim@...
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Fem. Got Us
> Date: Monday, June 26, 2000 4:48 AM
>
> Lynda,
> Wow! My kids and I would love to meet you and your family! You should
write a
> book about your life and your grandpas' and great-grandma's lives!
> Bridget
>
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