[email protected]

In a message dated 8/15/2004 12:58:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
scubamama@... writes:

Wouldn't parents justify keeping some TV images from their children also in
order to have a more peaceful nest?<<<<<

Nope.

Not if it were something the child(ren) wanted to see. What image (that they
would want to watch) would be so "unpeaceful" that I would need to censor?
and justify?

~Kelly






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

I find the allegory to fit unschooling discussion censorship
similarly. What exchange or debate is so "unpeaceful" to need
censorship and justification? Censorship is engaged in on this site.
Many members are unaware of rebuttals being refused and that some
posts have portions deleted without the author's prior consent.
Certainly this disavows any claim to freedom of choice and freedom of
speech. Or are these freedoms only given or retained for children in
one's own home?

This has not happened to me personally.

Pat--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a...
wrote:
> In a message dated 8/15/2004 12:58:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> scubamama@e... writes:
>
> Wouldn't parents justify keeping some TV images from their
children also in
> order to have a more peaceful nest?<<<<<
>
> Nope.
>
> Not if it were something the child(ren) wanted to see. What image
(that they
> would want to watch) would be so "unpeaceful" that I would need to
censor?
> and justify?
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

At 11:29 AM 8/15/04, you wrote:
>I find the allegory to fit unschooling discussion censorship
>similarly. What exchange or debate is so "unpeaceful" to need
>censorship and justification? Censorship is engaged in on this site.
>Many members are unaware of rebuttals being refused and that some
>posts have portions deleted without the author's prior consent.
>Certainly this disavows any claim to freedom of choice and freedom of
>speech. Or are these freedoms only given or retained for children in
>one's own home?
>
>This has not happened to me personally.

If I turn on the weather channel I don't want to see the Sopranos. That's
not censorship.

If you go to Yahoo you can start any group you want. That's freedom of
speech. Just don't join my running group and start discussing horses,
except maybe as they relate to running.

I have been on this list long enough (almost 2 years) to know what comes up
over and over, and I have to say I am in awe of the patience that some
wonderful list members have in discussing these ideas over and over again
with new list members who either don't read or don't understand the list
posting policies.

Donna

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/15/04 7:07:51 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< Wouldn't parents justify keeping some TV images from their children also
in
order to have a more peaceful nest?<<<<<

<<Nope. >>

Parents WOULD justify it that way, if they defined peace as freedom from
noise or input.

<<What image (that they
would want to watch) would be so "unpeaceful" that I would need to censor?
and justify?>>

The news?
Oh... that they would want to watch.

They rarely watch the news. I get tired of the barrage of dead baby stories.
Babies have always died, but I shouldn't have to have more stories than of
the actual women I know whose babies have died. Not every family in the state
and lots from other places.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 8/15/04 10:29 AM, eriksmama2001 at scubamama@... wrote:

> What exchange or debate is so "unpeaceful" to need
> censorship and justification?

The goal of the list isn't peace. Nor is the goal to provide a forum for
anyone to say anything they want. The goal of the list is useful unschooling
information.

It's implied when someone signs on a list that the list owners will supply
what the list says it's about. People don't want to sign onto a list about
cats and have endless debates about dogs, for instance.

This is a large list and has been going for over 5 years. The list has been
derailed into useless debates that don't help anyone unschool countless
times. Understanding the common factors that caused those derailments helped
us come up with the list rules. When someone posts in a way that violates
the rules then their post is sent back so they can revise it.

And the list has been *much* more useful for people who want unschooling
information since the rules were implemented nearly a year ago.

While it would be satisfying for those involved in a disagreement to be able
to hammer out every disagreement they have on the list, members expect the
list to be about unschooling and trust the list to supply that. For those
who didn't experience the nonunschooling debates that stretched on for
several days and filled up people's boxes with hundreds of emails, it isn't
fair to second guess why the list is run as it is.

If someone wants to continue a debate on another list, they're free to
create one and announce it here.

Joyce

Elizabeth Hill

** I find the allegory to fit unschooling discussion censorship
similarly. What exchange or debate is so "unpeaceful" to need
censorship and justification?**

Since I read Fast Food Nation, I have some images in my mind about the
meat processing industry. I wouldn't share them here because:

a) they aren't likely to help anyone unschool more happily or more
effectively

b) they are stomach turning, and I know from experience that some people
read the list while eating their breakfast or while nursing their
babies/toddlers.

The purpose of this list is not to persuade people to stop eating beef,
even if some posters would like to accomplish that goal.

[linking up to another part of this discussion]

I think the "where do you draw the line" question is too vague to
successfully answer, unless it is narrowed down to be more specific.
Generally we find hypothetical abstract discussions are not particulary
helpful to parents reading here. This list is intended to help parents
deal with specific situations they are facing by sharing specific
suggestions based on experience.

**Censorship is engaged in on this site.
Many members are unaware of rebuttals being refused and that some
posts have portions deleted without the author's prior consent. **

Anyone who has been on this list long enough to have gone through some
long flame-wars, some of them off-topic, is aware that the list
converted from being an unmoderated list to a moderated one. This was
openly discussed at the time, and can be found in the archives. I
understand that the purpose of moderating the list is to prevent
disruptive, off-topic discussion.


Betsy

Deb Lewis

***Censorship is engaged in on this site. ***

It's not censorship. It's a list you can join or leave at your choosing
and it exists for the purpose of discussing unschooling.

It's not a secret that this is a moderated list.
There are posting policies to keep the list focused on unschooling and to
keep it helpful. This is from the list posting policies:

~"Our goal is to make the list as useful as possible for those seeking to
deepen their understanding of the unschooling philosophy. To do that, all
new list members are initially moderated to prevent spamming and catch
posts
that could disrupt the list. People will also be moderated if they
disrupt
the usefulness of the list. Potentially disruptive posts will be returned
for revision."~

Every single person who joins the list gets a copy of the posting
policies. They are in the files section of the group's home page. They
have been posted to the list on several occasions over the last year.

***Many members are unaware of rebuttals being refused***

Rebuttals are not refused unless they conflict with posting policies.
It's ok to disagree on this list. It's not ok to get personal or stinky.
That's in the posting policy too. Stick to discussing the ideas being
expressed, not the list, not the posters. Rebut all you want and be
prepared to be questioned about your position. It's pretty simple.

***and that some posts have portions deleted without the author's prior
consent. ***

You are mistaken. No post has ever been altered or edited by a
moderator. Any change to a post is done by the author even if it is
just to trim extraneous text. Sometimes a poster will include an entire
digest in their reply, or quote entire posts when they're only responding
to one or two ideas. We don't even trim the extraneous text, we'll
return a post to the author to do that. As far as I know there is no
feature at Yahoo that would allow anyone to edit or alter a post from
someone else.

Deb Lewis

pam sorooshian

On Aug 15, 2004, at 7:29 AM, eriksmama2001 wrote:

> Censorship is engaged in on this site.
> Many members are unaware of rebuttals being refused and that some
> posts have portions deleted without the author's prior consent.
>
> This has not happened to me personally.
>

It has not happened to you personally but you're so sure it happened
that you post it on the list as a fact? Now we get to spend list time
explaining, again, the actual list policies and how we moderate.

Here are the facts:

Only new people or those who have been disruptive in the past are
moderated. People are taken off moderation when they've posted a while
and are clearly going to contribute to the list, not obstruct its
purpose.

Moderators either approve posts or send them back to the person - we
don't edit them, ever. NEVER has a post had portions deleted by us,
with OR without the author's consent. We sometimes suggest to the
poster that they delete something and repost - it is up to them to do
it or not.

Rebuttals are not "refused." And I think that is evident from what you
do see on the list.
Some people have trouble distinguishing between disagreement with an
idea versus attacking an individual - those posts are returned with an
explanation.
Some people have trouble getting quickly back to unschooling when the
topic veers away - we are fairly lenient on that - we usually suggest
it on the list and wait for it to go back, but at some point we'll
start sending them back and ask people to return to unschooling
discussion.
Sometimes people continue to belabor a point with dozens of emails, one
after another,

We USE our posting guidelines extensively - we often refer to which
posting policy is being violated when we return their post. Please read
them if you're wondering what kind of moderating happens on this list.
No secrets - up front and as clear as we can manage.

-pam sorooshian, co-list owner

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/15/04 8:33:11 AM, scubamama@... writes:

<< I find the allegory to fit unschooling discussion censorship

similarly. >>

It's not that I don't understand big words, it's just that it's irritating
when people don't write simply and plainly.

-=- Censorship is engaged in on this site. -=-

No, it is not. Go and read about censorship and what it means. You have
the freedom to form a discussion list and have as many or as few rules as you
want. Go do it.

You have the freedom to publish a newspaper or magazine.
You do not have the freedom to force someone else's newspaper or magazine to
publish what you write.

-=-Many members are unaware of rebuttals being refused and that some

posts have portions deleted without the author's prior consent. -=-

Wrong.
Either a post is returned to the author, or it is let through. People aren't
editing posts.

-=-Certainly this disavows any claim to freedom of choice and freedom of

speech.-=-

Very incorrect. Your knowledge of freedom of choice and freedom of speech is
very limited.

No one forced you to be here, and no one is preventing you from publishing or
offering a discussion forum of your own. If you choose to publish, no one
will force you to publish what you would rather not. If you start a bulletin
board or yahoogroup, no one will force you to let people post whatever they want
regardless of your original intent.

-=-This has not happened to me personally. -=-

Nor have they happened to others, and so you should not have made the claim.

I was gone all day with Marty and Holly, we had a great time, and I'm sorry
to come back to nonsense. Maybe other moderators or list owners have already
responded, but at the risk of being redundant, you can go to yahoogroups.com
and read the description and policies of this group, or you can read them here:

http://sandradodd.com/lists/info

which exists because it can be reached with a click, unlike the files
attached to home pages of yahoogroups.

Once you have read those policies, either stay on the list and regard them,
or send an e-mail to
[email protected]

Sandra