Re: [Unschooling-dotcom]feminism
Sonia Ulan
Dia, gee, you put that well! I wish I'd said that!
We all know of instances where children have been in daycare or other
second/third/fourth-best care and somehow still thrived. But daycare is
a RISK. (And so obviously is bad parenting...there may be the odd, one
in hundred, child who's safer or better off in daycare but that's
another issue...) There are lots of people who drive drunk and don't
get in car accidents, but does that mean driving drunk is a good thing
or appropriate! I'm not meaning to insult anyone or suggest that
so-called "working moms" (Isn't EVERY mother a "working mother"?) are
equivalent to drunk drivers but I'm trying to illustrate that there is a
RISK, in most non-parental care situations, and is it worth the gamble
when not ABSOLUTELY necessary? Besides, when nothing but the breast
will console a fussy or pained baby, can any babysitter provide that?
My neighbour, who is a very pleasant and wonderful woman, runs her own
in-house daycare. I see what goes on there in a supposedly "good"
situation, and she has her share of babies that basically spend the
whole day crying for their mothers. It is beyond pitiful to see. I
think society grossly underestimates the heroic role mothers play in the
development of their children. There are far too many babies suffering
needlessly.
When we deny mothers and our children, we deny womanhood.
Sonia
Dia Garland wrote:
We all know of instances where children have been in daycare or other
second/third/fourth-best care and somehow still thrived. But daycare is
a RISK. (And so obviously is bad parenting...there may be the odd, one
in hundred, child who's safer or better off in daycare but that's
another issue...) There are lots of people who drive drunk and don't
get in car accidents, but does that mean driving drunk is a good thing
or appropriate! I'm not meaning to insult anyone or suggest that
so-called "working moms" (Isn't EVERY mother a "working mother"?) are
equivalent to drunk drivers but I'm trying to illustrate that there is a
RISK, in most non-parental care situations, and is it worth the gamble
when not ABSOLUTELY necessary? Besides, when nothing but the breast
will console a fussy or pained baby, can any babysitter provide that?
My neighbour, who is a very pleasant and wonderful woman, runs her own
in-house daycare. I see what goes on there in a supposedly "good"
situation, and she has her share of babies that basically spend the
whole day crying for their mothers. It is beyond pitiful to see. I
think society grossly underestimates the heroic role mothers play in the
development of their children. There are far too many babies suffering
needlessly.
When we deny mothers and our children, we deny womanhood.
Sonia
Dia Garland wrote:
>
> > And I feel it is important to remember that there may be points during
> one's
> > life when one set of circumstances fits and then another period where
> another
> > set fits. A woman may want or need (whether a "real" economic or
> personal,
> > perceived need) to work at one point and may not want or need to at
> another
> > point in her life. Children may or may not be a factor in any of this at
> > various stages. One may or may not have children at various ages --
> younger
> > or older. One may have a career. A calling. Or a job.<<
>
> I heartily disagree with the sentiment that women have the right to work and
> leave their kids in daycare. Noone has the right to work when it interferes
> with the rights of another. Actually none of us even have a *right* to
> work, it is not listed in our bill of rights anywhere! We have an
> obligation to work in order to care for ourselves and our dependents.
>
> There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
> and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare.
> Most people who claim a need to work actually mean that they need to work in
> order to support their lifestyle, or to pay the debt they have gotten
> themselves in to. They don't need to work in order to buy food and pay for
> shelter.
>
> When adults put their wants (a job outside the home) ahead of the needs of
> their children, and that choice is not only condoned, but applauded, then
> there is something wrong with the society in which they live. Children NEED
> their parents! They NEED stability! They NEED unconditional love! These
> are not choices the children make, they are legitimate, valid needs. And
> we, their mothers, have denied these needs in order to fulfill our desires
> for far too long.
>
> If a woman wants a career, then that is her choice to make, but she does not
> have the right to bring a child into that equation and condemn the child to
> a life of paid custodial care.
>
> Dia
>
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Sonia Ulan
Gayle Bechtel wrote:
<"I have a friend that is a single mom of 4 children. The father of the
children was a bad choice but one she had made at that point - she has
also left him. She is raising these kids alone, father is not even
involved(by his choice). He doesn't pay child support on time, and we
are talking months at a time of seeing no money support. She is trying
the best she can to just get by.
Would you say she is a bad mother to have to put her kids in a daycare
so she can work just to pay rent, electric bill, and put food on the
table, and a few clothes on their backs(at that from Salvation
Army)?">
This is the exception rather than the rule!!! Of COURSE, situations
like these, might be handled a little differently and more sensitively!
I think few would argue that daycare has its place in these rare
circumstances. By far though, the families opting for non-parental
care, are not of such dire circumstances.
Presently in Canada, the government is considering offering families a
child care tax credit. And that is regardless of what choice a family
makes in terms of child care. The same dollars that go into daycare
subsidies could also go to the families with a stay-at-home mom. In
most situations those tax dollars could help make the difference for
having a mom (or dad) at home. As many have already written, by the
time you pay for childcare, extra wardrobe, lunches, car, gas etc. to
hold down a job, you have little left over. A tax credit, equal to the
minimal amount most have left over after expenses, would probably be a
more efficient use of public funds. Otherwise, it's a self-perpetuating
process to trap kids in daycare.
This is an unschooling issue in my mind. Unschooling, "un-daycare-ing",
it's the same thing. It's all about the de-institutionalization of
children!
Sonia
<"I have a friend that is a single mom of 4 children. The father of the
children was a bad choice but one she had made at that point - she has
also left him. She is raising these kids alone, father is not even
involved(by his choice). He doesn't pay child support on time, and we
are talking months at a time of seeing no money support. She is trying
the best she can to just get by.
Would you say she is a bad mother to have to put her kids in a daycare
so she can work just to pay rent, electric bill, and put food on the
table, and a few clothes on their backs(at that from Salvation
Army)?">
This is the exception rather than the rule!!! Of COURSE, situations
like these, might be handled a little differently and more sensitively!
I think few would argue that daycare has its place in these rare
circumstances. By far though, the families opting for non-parental
care, are not of such dire circumstances.
Presently in Canada, the government is considering offering families a
child care tax credit. And that is regardless of what choice a family
makes in terms of child care. The same dollars that go into daycare
subsidies could also go to the families with a stay-at-home mom. In
most situations those tax dollars could help make the difference for
having a mom (or dad) at home. As many have already written, by the
time you pay for childcare, extra wardrobe, lunches, car, gas etc. to
hold down a job, you have little left over. A tax credit, equal to the
minimal amount most have left over after expenses, would probably be a
more efficient use of public funds. Otherwise, it's a self-perpetuating
process to trap kids in daycare.
This is an unschooling issue in my mind. Unschooling, "un-daycare-ing",
it's the same thing. It's all about the de-institutionalization of
children!
Sonia
Dia Garland
> And I feel it is important to remember that there may be points duringone's
> life when one set of circumstances fits and then another period whereanother
> set fits. A woman may want or need (whether a "real" economic orpersonal,
> perceived need) to work at one point and may not want or need to atanother
> point in her life. Children may or may not be a factor in any of this atyounger
> various stages. One may or may not have children at various ages --
> or older. One may have a career. A calling. Or a job.<<I heartily disagree with the sentiment that women have the right to work and
leave their kids in daycare. Noone has the right to work when it interferes
with the rights of another. Actually none of us even have a *right* to
work, it is not listed in our bill of rights anywhere! We have an
obligation to work in order to care for ourselves and our dependents.
There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare.
Most people who claim a need to work actually mean that they need to work in
order to support their lifestyle, or to pay the debt they have gotten
themselves in to. They don't need to work in order to buy food and pay for
shelter.
When adults put their wants (a job outside the home) ahead of the needs of
their children, and that choice is not only condoned, but applauded, then
there is something wrong with the society in which they live. Children NEED
their parents! They NEED stability! They NEED unconditional love! These
are not choices the children make, they are legitimate, valid needs. And
we, their mothers, have denied these needs in order to fulfill our desires
for far too long.
If a woman wants a career, then that is her choice to make, but she does not
have the right to bring a child into that equation and condemn the child to
a life of paid custodial care.
Dia
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/2000 7:54:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
moocow@... writes:
<< There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare.
Most people who claim a need to work actually mean that they need to work in
order to support their lifestyle, or to pay the debt they have gotten
themselves in to. They don't need to work in order to buy food and pay for
shelter. >>
This is the point I was trying to make.... that it's a choice that's based on
the lifestyle parents have chosen prior to have children.
The whole "sounding like Dr. Laura" thing... Is that suppose to be a
negative? It's interesting that when children's rights are put below the
wants and desires of the parents the Dr. Laura card is pulled as if that
indicates she is "wrong'" in her belief that kids are important. Now there's
judgement if ever I saw it. (personally I don't think one way or another of
Dr. Laura)
Dawn F
moocow@... writes:
<< There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare.
Most people who claim a need to work actually mean that they need to work in
order to support their lifestyle, or to pay the debt they have gotten
themselves in to. They don't need to work in order to buy food and pay for
shelter. >>
This is the point I was trying to make.... that it's a choice that's based on
the lifestyle parents have chosen prior to have children.
The whole "sounding like Dr. Laura" thing... Is that suppose to be a
negative? It's interesting that when children's rights are put below the
wants and desires of the parents the Dr. Laura card is pulled as if that
indicates she is "wrong'" in her belief that kids are important. Now there's
judgement if ever I saw it. (personally I don't think one way or another of
Dr. Laura)
Dawn F
[email protected]
In a message dated 06/24/2000 2:54:10 PM !!!First Boot!!!, moocow@...
writes:
<<
I heartily disagree with the sentiment that women have the right to work and
leave their kids in daycare. Noone has the right to work when it interferes
with the rights of another. Actually none of us even have a *right* to
work, it is not listed in our bill of rights anywhere! We have an
obligation to work in order to care for ourselves and our dependents.
There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare.
Most people who claim a need to work actually mean that they need to work in
order to support their lifestyle, or to pay the debt they have gotten
themselves in to. They don't need to work in order to buy food and pay for
shelter.
When adults put their wants (a job outside the home) ahead of the needs of
their children, and that choice is not only condoned, but applauded, then
there is something wrong with the society in which they live. Children NEED
their parents! They NEED stability! They NEED unconditional love! These
are not choices the children make, they are legitimate, valid needs. And
we, their mothers, have denied these needs in order to fulfill our desires
for far too long.
If a woman wants a career, then that is her choice to make, but she does not
have the right to bring a child into that equation and condemn the child to
a life of paid custodial care.
Dia
I disagree with most of what you say but heartily support your right to raise
your children whatever way you believe is best.
I just think things are not always as black and white as they might appear
from the outside.
I am a stay-at-home Mom. We live from one stack of bills to the next.
Pretty typical probably.
But then there are the Moms who, trying to do the very best for their
children, feel that the family should travel. It can be done differently
(these are not my choices, not yours maybe) but their way to do it is to get
a job that has 2 weeks paid vacation, enough of a salary to save a little,
health insurance (so hubby can work that job that makes the real $$ but has
no benefits), etc. Build your own scenario. Maybe it's not travel. Maybe
it's some other long-term goal. We cannot know what is in everyone's heart
when they make these decisions.
This is not the choice I have made. Not the choice I expect you would make.
But -- are these bad parents? Is this a bad Mom? You think so? I don't.
America's a great country! And feminism is part of the mix that has given us
all these choices -- as difficult as they may be and as much as we may
disagree.
Nance
writes:
<<
I heartily disagree with the sentiment that women have the right to work and
leave their kids in daycare. Noone has the right to work when it interferes
with the rights of another. Actually none of us even have a *right* to
work, it is not listed in our bill of rights anywhere! We have an
obligation to work in order to care for ourselves and our dependents.
There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare.
Most people who claim a need to work actually mean that they need to work in
order to support their lifestyle, or to pay the debt they have gotten
themselves in to. They don't need to work in order to buy food and pay for
shelter.
When adults put their wants (a job outside the home) ahead of the needs of
their children, and that choice is not only condoned, but applauded, then
there is something wrong with the society in which they live. Children NEED
their parents! They NEED stability! They NEED unconditional love! These
are not choices the children make, they are legitimate, valid needs. And
we, their mothers, have denied these needs in order to fulfill our desires
for far too long.
If a woman wants a career, then that is her choice to make, but she does not
have the right to bring a child into that equation and condemn the child to
a life of paid custodial care.
Dia
>>Gosh Dia -- Try to speak up a little, will ya! Don't be so shy!
I disagree with most of what you say but heartily support your right to raise
your children whatever way you believe is best.
I just think things are not always as black and white as they might appear
from the outside.
I am a stay-at-home Mom. We live from one stack of bills to the next.
Pretty typical probably.
But then there are the Moms who, trying to do the very best for their
children, feel that the family should travel. It can be done differently
(these are not my choices, not yours maybe) but their way to do it is to get
a job that has 2 weeks paid vacation, enough of a salary to save a little,
health insurance (so hubby can work that job that makes the real $$ but has
no benefits), etc. Build your own scenario. Maybe it's not travel. Maybe
it's some other long-term goal. We cannot know what is in everyone's heart
when they make these decisions.
This is not the choice I have made. Not the choice I expect you would make.
But -- are these bad parents? Is this a bad Mom? You think so? I don't.
America's a great country! And feminism is part of the mix that has given us
all these choices -- as difficult as they may be and as much as we may
disagree.
Nance
Gayle Bechtel
You get so down on everyone who puts their kids in daycare. Did you ever think that sometimes there may not be any other choice?I have a friend that is a single mom of 4 children. The father of the children was a bad choice but one she had made at that point - she has also left him. She is raising these kids alone, father is not even involved(by his choice). He doesn't pay child support on time, and we are talking months at a time of seeing no money support. She is trying the best she can to just get by.Would you say she is a bad mother to have to put her kids in a daycare so she can work just to pay rent, electric bill, and put food on the table, and a few clothes on their backs(at that from Salvation Army)?----- Original Message -----From: Dia GarlandSent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 10:54 AMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom]feminism
> And I feel it is important to remember that there may be points during
one's
> life when one set of circumstances fits and then another period where
another
> set fits. A woman may want or need (whether a "real" economic or
personal,
> perceived need) to work at one point and may not want or need to at
another
> point in her life. Children may or may not be a factor in any of this at
> various stages. One may or may not have children at various ages --
younger
> or older. One may have a career. A calling. Or a job.<<
I heartily disagree with the sentiment that women have the right to work and
leave their kids in daycare. Noone has the right to work when it interferes
with the rights of another. Actually none of us even have a *right* to
work, it is not listed in our bill of rights anywhere! We have an
obligation to work in order to care for ourselves and our dependents.
There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare.
Most people who claim a need to work actually mean that they need to work in
order to support their lifestyle, or to pay the debt they have gotten
themselves in to. They don't need to work in order to buy food and pay for
shelter.
When adults put their wants (a job outside the home) ahead of the needs of
their children, and that choice is not only condoned, but applauded, then
there is something wrong with the society in which they live. Children NEED
their parents! They NEED stability! They NEED unconditional love! These
are not choices the children make, they are legitimate, valid needs. And
we, their mothers, have denied these needs in order to fulfill our desires
for far too long.
If a woman wants a career, then that is her choice to make, but she does not
have the right to bring a child into that equation and condemn the child to
a life of paid custodial care.
Dia
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Pris
I agree, Gayle ... *sometimes*, you just need to walk around in someone else's shoes to understand where they're coming from ... goodness, I'm doing good to figure out what is right for *my* family and I'd NEVER presume to tell others what is *absolute* right/wrong for THEIRS!!! things like this have TOO MANY variables and HOW in the world can you speak for people you don't even KNOW (using you as *nameless* here!!!) ... it's just preposterous to say something is an ABSOLUTE RIGHT/WRONG for EVERYONE???I've only been on this list for a few wks but I must agree w/ Lainie, too ... I DO NOT like the *tone* this list has taken today and I think this thread has been very destructive ... *HOPEFULLY*, this is a *fluke* and will run it's course *quickly* ... if not ... I'm outta~here ... and, I'd hate for that to happen b/c I've grown very fond of so many of you <G> ...I think we just need to lighten up and give each other a break ... SO, I'll do my part to that end and I'll say NOTHING MORE about the *fem* issue ...in the meantime, I'll go on about my day skipping through the life while humming happy songs :)
Pris----- Original Message -----From: Gayle BechtelSent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 3:23 PMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom]feminismYou get so down on everyone who puts their kids in daycare. Did you ever think that sometimes there may not be any other choice?I have a friend that is a single mom of 4 children. The father of the children was a bad choice but one she had made at that point - she has also left him. She is raising these kids alone, father is not even involved(by his choice). He doesn't pay child support on time, and we are talking months at a time of seeing no money support. She is trying the best she can to just get by.Would you say she is a bad mother to have to put her kids in a daycare so she can work just to pay rent, electric bill, and put food on the table, and a few clothes on their backs(at that from Salvation Army)?
Sheri Ponzi
I must also speak up as a new member here. I proudly call myself feminist
and I resent the accusations being hurled at feminists.
Having a person *choose* to stay at home is a totally different thing than
being forced to stay at home. Feminism has given me that choice. Instead
of blaming indiviuals for their choices why not examine the insanity of
some of our cultural constructs that make people have fewer and fewer choices.
Also, I cannot believe anyone would claim that being homeless is a choice.
HUH!!??
Sheri
At 04:53 PM 6/24/00 -0700, you wrote:
Sheri Ponzi
mailto:purple_sage@...
http://sites.netscape.net/sponzi
Beaded bowls from MoonBead Treasures available at Motherbeads
http://www.motherbeads.com/guest_artists.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and I resent the accusations being hurled at feminists.
Having a person *choose* to stay at home is a totally different thing than
being forced to stay at home. Feminism has given me that choice. Instead
of blaming indiviuals for their choices why not examine the insanity of
some of our cultural constructs that make people have fewer and fewer choices.
Also, I cannot believe anyone would claim that being homeless is a choice.
HUH!!??
Sheri
At 04:53 PM 6/24/00 -0700, you wrote:
>too ... I DO NOT like the *tone* this list has taken
>Pris wrote :
>> I've only been on this list for a few wks but I must agree w/ Lainie,
>> today and I think this thread has been very destructive ... *HOPEFULLY*,this is a *fluke* and will run it's course
>> *quickly* ... if not ... I'm outta~here ... and, I'd hate for that tohappen b/c I've grown very fond of so many of you <G>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>I've been on this list since the beginning (or in its second week) and
>I've not seen anything like this either. I don't like the tone these
>threads have taken and instead of being silent, I will speak up too.
>I do not presume to judge anyone - I don't know their heart.
>
>--
>
>Cindy Ferguson
>crma@...
>
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Sheri Ponzi
mailto:purple_sage@...
http://sites.netscape.net/sponzi
Beaded bowls from MoonBead Treasures available at Motherbeads
http://www.motherbeads.com/guest_artists.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dia Garland
I didn't say anything about Dr. Laura. I think she is right about
children's rights.
Dia
children's rights.
Dia
> The whole "sounding like Dr. Laura" thing... Is that suppose to be a
> negative? <<
Dia Garland
> But then there are the Moms who, trying to do the very best for theirget
> children, feel that the family should travel. It can be done differently
> (these are not my choices, not yours maybe) but their way to do it is to
> a job that has 2 weeks paid vacation, enough of a salary to save a little,has
> health insurance (so hubby can work that job that makes the real $$ but
> no benefits), etc. Build your own scenario. Maybe it's not travel.Maybe
> it's some other long-term goal. We cannot know what is in everyone'sheart
> when they make these decisions.<<I do not think that two weeks of travel time is worth 50 weeks of not seeing
your kids very much, and I don't think the kids would agree that it is worth
it either.
Are these bad moms? How about the dads who agree with the scenario? I
guess I'd say they are misguided, confused by what feminism has become, and
brainwashed by our "me first" society. Most mothers who work outside the
home have convinced themselves that 15 minutes of quality time is sufficient
so that they can pursue their own desires. And I do have to include the
dads in this diatribe! They are just as much at blame for allowing their
kids to be raised by someone else.
This is not simply *my belief*, my feelings are based on what research has
shown to be best for kids. Children do best emotionally when they have a
secure home with both parents living with them and at least one parent there
for them full time. Full time daycare is detrimental to young children.
And no, I am not on the outside looking in. I worked full time in a
pre-school/daycare before I had kids. It was a wonderful daycare, teachers
who had been there for years, ones who loved their jobs and the kids they
worked with. I loved *my* kids, and have kept in touch with a number of
them over the years. As a matter of fact I have two high school graduation
notices on my fridge right now from two of my former kids! :-) I also have
a picture of a little girl from my first pre-school class....with her
husband and baby! I must be getting old! Anyway, I saw the parents and the
kids, and what the separation did to them. By 5pm or so the kids were
tired, the parents were tired, and they still had to go home, fix supper,
bathe the kids, maybe help an older sibling with homework, do the dishes,
laundry...the list goes on. The parents did not have the energy to become
excited about what went on at daycare that day, whether they wanted to be or
not.
We all have choices to make in life, and many will have no impact on anyone
else, therefore we are free to make whatever choices we want. Choosing to
work when there are children involved is not one of those choices. We can
go to work at our dream job after the kids are grown, or do it first and
then have kids, but it is not fair to the children to attempt to do both at
the same time. My husband and I chose to have kids first. Yes, there are
other things in life I want to accomplish that have nothing to do with
mothering. Maybe someday I will. But, if I leave this earth before I have
the chance to do all of the other things I would like to do, I leave with
the assurance that I chose to do that which was most important first.
Everything else really doesn't matter.
Dia
Dia Garland
You get so
down on everyone who puts their kids in daycare. Did you ever think that
sometimes there may not be any other choice?
>>There are some instances where a woman or
man is forced to work full time
and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare.<<
and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare.<<
Did you read this part? Yes, I know that
there are times when full time care is unavoidable. When that is the case
then friends and family would be wonderful to fill the need so the children are
with someone with whom they already have a relationship. I would challenge
you to take on some of this woman's burden so her money stretches a little
more.
Dia
Trisha Sides
Ok, I tried to stay out of it but I can't help myself- What about the
fathers? Alot of you seem to be very adamant about mothers not working (and
I mostly agree with you on the daycare issue, I have always said I didn't
bear a child for someone else to raise) but you don't mention dads. Is it
any better when dad has to work 45-60 hrs a week and never has any time with
his children? Maybe daycare is a bad deal, but what about the woman whose
husband works a different shift so that he is with the kids when she is not?
Is dad's care somehow inferior or less important than moms? And I'm sorry,
but yes some moms do have to work to pay for food and shelter, anyone who
has been to the grocery store or shopped for a home lately, knows that these
things aren't cheap. It's an awful big load for dad to bear on his own and
not every man can have a high paying job. Just my $.02. Trisha
________________________________________________________________________
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fathers? Alot of you seem to be very adamant about mothers not working (and
I mostly agree with you on the daycare issue, I have always said I didn't
bear a child for someone else to raise) but you don't mention dads. Is it
any better when dad has to work 45-60 hrs a week and never has any time with
his children? Maybe daycare is a bad deal, but what about the woman whose
husband works a different shift so that he is with the kids when she is not?
Is dad's care somehow inferior or less important than moms? And I'm sorry,
but yes some moms do have to work to pay for food and shelter, anyone who
has been to the grocery store or shopped for a home lately, knows that these
things aren't cheap. It's an awful big load for dad to bear on his own and
not every man can have a high paying job. Just my $.02. Trisha
________________________________________________________________________
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Sonia Ulan
Here, here, Dawn. In our so-called "modern age" we have become so
institution-dependent with our children (i.e. daycares, schools,) we are
completely removed from the natural, bonded, and ATTACHED relationship
nature/God planned between parent and child. Most of the world doesn't
even realize what it has lost! Either you get the message, or you
don't...
NumoAstro@... wrote:
institution-dependent with our children (i.e. daycares, schools,) we are
completely removed from the natural, bonded, and ATTACHED relationship
nature/God planned between parent and child. Most of the world doesn't
even realize what it has lost! Either you get the message, or you
don't...
NumoAstro@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/25/2000 5:41:01 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
> kworthen@... writes:
>
> << $250 wk. for 5 10hr. days >>
>
> I nearly threw up when I read this..... 5 X 10hrs per day... I'm sorry to
> sound judgmental, but who in the hell would leave their baby for 10 hours a
> day with an institution that warehouses other babies.... Just tell me what
> kind of a person does this??? I can't be the only one that is shocked,
> horrified and dismayed that women/men do this to their children and that it's
> considered ok.... My baby of 9 months is sleeping an average of 14 hours a
> day still, which means if he were in daycare he would never see me awake for
> 5 days a week and he'd only see me for 20 out of a possible 70 hours per
> week.
>
> What on earth kind of message does this send to those poor babies.... I shake
> my head with shame for being part of a race and culture that accepts and
> encourage parents to do this with their children. I'll deal with being
> called judgmental about this if that's the price to pay. At least my
> children won't be paying the price with their hearts, minds and souls....
>
> Dawn F
>
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CA Nelson
Sonia---
I couldn't agree more with this. At least in my case, everyone seems to "blame" my daughter's attachment to me and the fact that we don't leave her babysitters because of my breastfeeding. Well, duh, if my daughter knows exactly what will comfort her and knows that will always be available, why wouldn't I be there for her? It's not a burden for me to raise my daughter.
When you mentioned your neighbor that runs the daycare, it made me think of some former neighbors of ours who ran a daycare. It was really sad, because there were a couple times that I saw her half dozen charges being watched by a very young teenager. Apparently she had to go to the doctor and just had her cousin take over! And they also had a couple dogs which ran around with the kids in the backyard. Well, she would have the kids scoop up all of the dog poop from time to time. I even saw the dogs peeing on the toys outside and never once saw her cleaning them.
Of course not every in home daycare is like that, but it's scary to think what goes on.
Amy Nelson
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99)
"The hardest to learn was the least complicated." - The Indigo Girls
My neighbour, who is a very pleasant and wonderful woman, runs her own
in-house daycare. I see what goes on there in a supposedly "good"
situation, and she has her share of babies that basically spend the
whole day crying for their mothers. It is beyond pitiful to see. I
think society grossly underestimates the heroic role mothers play in the
development of their children. There are far too many babies suffering
needlessly.
dawn
i am very thankful that the earlier feminists worked so hard to make it so
that i could get several degrees before having children and that i can now
choose to woh *and* sah. the world isn't perfect, but the discrimination
i face is much less than the discrimination my older colleagues faced, and
people with whom I work also appreciate my choices to work part time, hs,
put my family first, and bear children late in life. they may not agree
with me, but they understand that these are choices i've made and support
me in making them.
Feminism has also given me the right to tell men who are uncomfortable
with the few square inches of skin that might show when I breastfeed to
get over it. It has given me the autonomy to make reproductive decisions
for myself (hey, I could go get my tubes tied w/o my husband's consent).
I can have a credit card in my name and sign a lease or buy property as
well.
It has given back to me the right to make childbirth choices outside of
the male-dominated medical model.
It has made it illegal for my husband to rape me.
it has made it possible for gay women to be out and to parent.
It has enabled my sons to play ball on co-ed teams.
It has helped others see that my sons playing with dolls are honing
parenting skills.
It hasn't taken away my femininity. It hasn't taken away my choices. It
can only make me feel like I am "just a mother" if I let *individuals*
make me feel that way.
And it has given me the voice to say, "Hell no, I'm not a housewife. I'm
a mother, a parent, and the one who coordinates the home at this time.
I'm married to my husband so I'm his wife. Go ahead, ask him...when he
gets back from the laundromat with this week's laundry and cloth diapers."
No movement is perfect. Not all individuals within any movement are
perfect. But the feminist movement can only take away from women what
they relinquish.
dawn h-s
" "I am a woman here on planet Earth
I have the breath of life in me, a gift given at birth
No one, no body, no powers that be
Can ever, ever, ever take this gift away from me."
--Ruth Pelham
that i could get several degrees before having children and that i can now
choose to woh *and* sah. the world isn't perfect, but the discrimination
i face is much less than the discrimination my older colleagues faced, and
people with whom I work also appreciate my choices to work part time, hs,
put my family first, and bear children late in life. they may not agree
with me, but they understand that these are choices i've made and support
me in making them.
Feminism has also given me the right to tell men who are uncomfortable
with the few square inches of skin that might show when I breastfeed to
get over it. It has given me the autonomy to make reproductive decisions
for myself (hey, I could go get my tubes tied w/o my husband's consent).
I can have a credit card in my name and sign a lease or buy property as
well.
It has given back to me the right to make childbirth choices outside of
the male-dominated medical model.
It has made it illegal for my husband to rape me.
it has made it possible for gay women to be out and to parent.
It has enabled my sons to play ball on co-ed teams.
It has helped others see that my sons playing with dolls are honing
parenting skills.
It hasn't taken away my femininity. It hasn't taken away my choices. It
can only make me feel like I am "just a mother" if I let *individuals*
make me feel that way.
And it has given me the voice to say, "Hell no, I'm not a housewife. I'm
a mother, a parent, and the one who coordinates the home at this time.
I'm married to my husband so I'm his wife. Go ahead, ask him...when he
gets back from the laundromat with this week's laundry and cloth diapers."
No movement is perfect. Not all individuals within any movement are
perfect. But the feminist movement can only take away from women what
they relinquish.
dawn h-s
" "I am a woman here on planet Earth
I have the breath of life in me, a gift given at birth
No one, no body, no powers that be
Can ever, ever, ever take this gift away from me."
--Ruth Pelham
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/25/2000 3:19:21 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
sulan@... writes:
<< I see what goes on there in a supposedly "good"
situation, and she has her share of babies that basically spend the
whole day crying for their mothers. It is beyond pitiful to see. I
think society grossly underestimates the heroic role mothers play in the
development of their children. There are far too many babies suffering
needlessly.
When we deny mothers and our children, we deny womanhood. >>
Sonia:
Just reading this makes me weep for those babies. I just went to get mine
and give him a big hug and kiss. He pushed me away because he's playing with
daddy and not very interested in me right now (LOL) I thank God everyday
that I chose a man whose as much interested in his family as I am.
Dawn F
sulan@... writes:
<< I see what goes on there in a supposedly "good"
situation, and she has her share of babies that basically spend the
whole day crying for their mothers. It is beyond pitiful to see. I
think society grossly underestimates the heroic role mothers play in the
development of their children. There are far too many babies suffering
needlessly.
When we deny mothers and our children, we deny womanhood. >>
Sonia:
Just reading this makes me weep for those babies. I just went to get mine
and give him a big hug and kiss. He pushed me away because he's playing with
daddy and not very interested in me right now (LOL) I thank God everyday
that I chose a man whose as much interested in his family as I am.
Dawn F
CA Nelson
On another note, did anyone catch the segment on homeschooling on CBS Sunday Morning? It featured a family in New Hampshire and a group in Virginia. Of course one of the main arguments was that there wasn't enough interaction with people of different views. Hmm, so in ps every student is allowed to explore a different viewpoint other than what teachers are required to teach? Just curious what others thought.
--
Amy Nelson
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99)
"The hardest to learn was the least complicated." - The Indigo Girls
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/2000 6:30:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
yschild@... writes:
<< some moms do have to work to pay for food and shelter, anyone who
has been to the grocery store or shopped for a home lately, knows that these
things aren't cheap. >>
If you have to work to pay for food and shelter and that's the primary need
in the family, you are probably not going to be able to earn that much money,
which would indicate to me that paying for daycare is going to cut into that
$5.25 per hour and not make it worthwhile going to work!!! Or am I missing
something here?
Dawn F
yschild@... writes:
<< some moms do have to work to pay for food and shelter, anyone who
has been to the grocery store or shopped for a home lately, knows that these
things aren't cheap. >>
If you have to work to pay for food and shelter and that's the primary need
in the family, you are probably not going to be able to earn that much money,
which would indicate to me that paying for daycare is going to cut into that
$5.25 per hour and not make it worthwhile going to work!!! Or am I missing
something here?
Dawn F
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/00 9:04:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
marbleface@... writes:
<< There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare. >>
I don't understand how this can be seen as rare when about half of all
marriages end in divorce in the U.S. Furthermore, with the changes in our
laws regarding welfare, most people need to transition off welfare in 2
years.
I have one aunt who had to leave her husband because he was dangerously
physically abusive. She has two kids and has never received normal child
support from him. Another aunt was a stay at home mom for all of her
marriage and has 4 kids. Her husband got involved with a woman he worked
with and left her. She has a very low standard of living now and he was able
to get custody of two of the kids because of his higher income. My cousin,
also a stay at home mom of 4, experienced almost the same thing except that
her ex-husband pays child support, though not nearly enough to live on. She
had to go to work full-time and it was sure as heck not to have a high
standard of living.
I believe intensely in unschooling and being home with babies but not
everyone can. I find it depressing and maddening to see a harsh, judgemental
attitude toward women who work and have kids. Our society needs to work a
lot more at having understanding and compassion rather than always falling
into the us or them mentality. I believe it's a form of self-righteousness,
the "I would NEVER do that..." meaning I am so much better than that other
person.
Lucy in Calif.
marbleface@... writes:
<< There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare. >>
I don't understand how this can be seen as rare when about half of all
marriages end in divorce in the U.S. Furthermore, with the changes in our
laws regarding welfare, most people need to transition off welfare in 2
years.
I have one aunt who had to leave her husband because he was dangerously
physically abusive. She has two kids and has never received normal child
support from him. Another aunt was a stay at home mom for all of her
marriage and has 4 kids. Her husband got involved with a woman he worked
with and left her. She has a very low standard of living now and he was able
to get custody of two of the kids because of his higher income. My cousin,
also a stay at home mom of 4, experienced almost the same thing except that
her ex-husband pays child support, though not nearly enough to live on. She
had to go to work full-time and it was sure as heck not to have a high
standard of living.
I believe intensely in unschooling and being home with babies but not
everyone can. I find it depressing and maddening to see a harsh, judgemental
attitude toward women who work and have kids. Our society needs to work a
lot more at having understanding and compassion rather than always falling
into the us or them mentality. I believe it's a form of self-righteousness,
the "I would NEVER do that..." meaning I am so much better than that other
person.
Lucy in Calif.
Debra Caruso
I also was a divorced single mom for a time,and had 3 small babies,and
my ex who came from a very wealthy family didn't give me support for 2
years,I didn't get any back support (his family were all lawyers) and
when I did finally get it I got 233 every 2 weeks for 3 boys!
That was very very hard!
There are great fathers out there who do support their kids,but there
are lots of so called fathers who bow out of the picture,and put a very
large burden on the moms and kids,and society in general...Deb
LASaliger@... wrote:
my ex who came from a very wealthy family didn't give me support for 2
years,I didn't get any back support (his family were all lawyers) and
when I did finally get it I got 233 every 2 weeks for 3 boys!
That was very very hard!
There are great fathers out there who do support their kids,but there
are lots of so called fathers who bow out of the picture,and put a very
large burden on the moms and kids,and society in general...Deb
LASaliger@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/24/00 9:04:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> marbleface@... writes:
>
> << There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
> and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances are rare. >>
>
> I don't understand how this can be seen as rare when about half of all
> marriages end in divorce in the U.S. Furthermore, with the changes in our
> laws regarding welfare, most people need to transition off welfare in 2
> years.
> I have one aunt who had to leave her husband because he was dangerously
> physically abusive. She has two kids and has never received normal child
> support from him. Another aunt was a stay at home mom for all of her
> marriage and has 4 kids. Her husband got involved with a woman he worked
> with and left her. She has a very low standard of living now and he was able
> to get custody of two of the kids because of his higher income. My cousin,
> also a stay at home mom of 4, experienced almost the same thing except that
> her ex-husband pays child support, though not nearly enough to live on. She
> had to go to work full-time and it was sure as heck not to have a high
> standard of living.
> I believe intensely in unschooling and being home with babies but not
> everyone can. I find it depressing and maddening to see a harsh, judgemental
> attitude toward women who work and have kids. Our society needs to work a
> lot more at having understanding and compassion rather than always falling
> into the us or them mentality. I believe it's a form of self-righteousness,
> the "I would NEVER do that..." meaning I am so much better than that other
> person.
>
> Lucy in Calif.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Old school buds here:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5545/14/_/448294/_/961953406/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
[email protected]
How about finding something that women/men (whichever or whoever stays at
home with the kids) can do from home? I would have thought that the goal of
each human being is to be self sufficient and not to work for other people.
Surely the only reason to work for someone else is to get experience so you
can have your own business??? There will always be a cap on what you earn
when working for someone else and more importantly the way you structure your
family life. When working for other people it's around their daily office
schedule, which is usually 8-5. When you have your own business, it may be
24 hours a day, but can be done when kids are asleep or hubbie is home to
take care of them. It's much harder than going to work for someone else,
because you are it, but in the long run my kids learn more about independence
and working at something you love rather than just to make money. Just a
thought IMHO.
Dawn F
home with the kids) can do from home? I would have thought that the goal of
each human being is to be self sufficient and not to work for other people.
Surely the only reason to work for someone else is to get experience so you
can have your own business??? There will always be a cap on what you earn
when working for someone else and more importantly the way you structure your
family life. When working for other people it's around their daily office
schedule, which is usually 8-5. When you have your own business, it may be
24 hours a day, but can be done when kids are asleep or hubbie is home to
take care of them. It's much harder than going to work for someone else,
because you are it, but in the long run my kids learn more about independence
and working at something you love rather than just to make money. Just a
thought IMHO.
Dawn F
[email protected]
So how about raising our daughters to not marry these bums.... This really
pisses me of because these men didn't just become this way overnight (well
the majority of them)... They always had signs of being bum like and we, as
women, tend to ignore the signs. We say "oh it's jus his way, or it will be
ok when we've married" Of course "it" never is and the men turn out to be
exactly what they showed themselves to be in the first place.
that's not to say there are some men who appear to be one thing and show you
that they are wonderful up until you get married and then turn into the other
man. However, where's our women's intution. I absolutely believe we know
when something is wrong in a relationship and we just ignore it and hope it
will go away. Then we make kids with this man and are surprised when they do
up and leave and act exactly the way they showed themselves to be in the
first place!!!!
So I hope that any of you with girls are raising them with great intuitions
and to look out for these bums. I'm raising 2 boys and will teach them to
respect women and to honor their comittments.
Dawn F
pisses me of because these men didn't just become this way overnight (well
the majority of them)... They always had signs of being bum like and we, as
women, tend to ignore the signs. We say "oh it's jus his way, or it will be
ok when we've married" Of course "it" never is and the men turn out to be
exactly what they showed themselves to be in the first place.
that's not to say there are some men who appear to be one thing and show you
that they are wonderful up until you get married and then turn into the other
man. However, where's our women's intution. I absolutely believe we know
when something is wrong in a relationship and we just ignore it and hope it
will go away. Then we make kids with this man and are surprised when they do
up and leave and act exactly the way they showed themselves to be in the
first place!!!!
So I hope that any of you with girls are raising them with great intuitions
and to look out for these bums. I'm raising 2 boys and will teach them to
respect women and to honor their comittments.
Dawn F
Lisa Bugg
.
people who do not want the headache of a business. They LIKE working for
other people. It's very limiting to believe that we all should want to be
one thing, no matter what that one thing is. How would some of us function
without our employees?
You have to have a certain personality and certain kind of drive to want to
run a business. How sad it would be if we were all the same.
LisaKK
> Surely the only reason to work for someone else is to get experience soyou
> can have your own business???No, this is not the only reason to work for someone else. There are many
people who do not want the headache of a business. They LIKE working for
other people. It's very limiting to believe that we all should want to be
one thing, no matter what that one thing is. How would some of us function
without our employees?
You have to have a certain personality and certain kind of drive to want to
run a business. How sad it would be if we were all the same.
LisaKK
[email protected]
In a message dated 06/25/2000 5:29:33 PM !!!First Boot!!!, NumoAstro@...
writes:
<< How about finding something that women/men (whichever or whoever stays at
home with the kids) can do from home? I would have thought that the goal of
each human being is to be self sufficient and not to work for other people.
Surely the only reason to work for someone else is to get experience so you
can have your own business??? >>
Just another point of view --
My husband and I have a tile/marble installation business. I do the admin
stuff; he sets the tile. He also employs his brother and an occassional
additional setter or helper as needed.
We are constantly amazed that my husband's brother does not "get it" - that
he wants to show up and do X amount of work and go home. That's all he
wants. He doesn't want to assume any more of the responsibility and he
doesn't get any of the profits. He gets a wage and that is all he wants. He
could get a license and start his own tile biz (he actually has much more
experience than my husband) but we see no sign that this will ever happen.
My husband and I have both been employees in the course of our work lives and
we were pretty bad at it. We are just not the employee type. Some people
are just not the boss type. I'm sure it is very complicated, psychologically
speaking, but I cannot see that anyone could or should change one set of
these people to the other type.
Some people are not cut out to be bosses. You apparently are, but, like so
many things, this does not mean it will fit everyone.
You also wrote:
"So how about raising our daughters to not marry these bums..."
I think a lot of us do try to instill the proper values in our daughters (and
our sons). And yet . . . things happen which a mother cannot prevent or
predict. Certainly we can try to do our best but that doesn't mean a perfect
husband is ready or willing or needed for every girl.
Again, what is working in your life may not apply to others.
It seems to me to be very hard to address these issues successfully unless we
can embrace world views that include others' points of view.
Actually, this is one of the issues that I find comes up periodically when I
am with my children. We discuss many things and I always try to inject some
sort of perspective into the discussion. I think it is very easy for them to
get lost in their own little worlds, and even tho I try not to introduce
things too early that might upset them, I try to point out that others might
feel different than they do and that the other person's pov is valuable too
and may make sense to them and so it is not kind or correct to criticize
others simply because they play ball differently or eat different food or
have a different sort of house or go to church or some such that is different
from our life. Children seem to me to have a hard time not being
self-centered and certain that their way is the best way.
Well, back to the Sunday paper.
I'm being waaaay lazy today!
Nance
writes:
<< How about finding something that women/men (whichever or whoever stays at
home with the kids) can do from home? I would have thought that the goal of
each human being is to be self sufficient and not to work for other people.
Surely the only reason to work for someone else is to get experience so you
can have your own business??? >>
Just another point of view --
My husband and I have a tile/marble installation business. I do the admin
stuff; he sets the tile. He also employs his brother and an occassional
additional setter or helper as needed.
We are constantly amazed that my husband's brother does not "get it" - that
he wants to show up and do X amount of work and go home. That's all he
wants. He doesn't want to assume any more of the responsibility and he
doesn't get any of the profits. He gets a wage and that is all he wants. He
could get a license and start his own tile biz (he actually has much more
experience than my husband) but we see no sign that this will ever happen.
My husband and I have both been employees in the course of our work lives and
we were pretty bad at it. We are just not the employee type. Some people
are just not the boss type. I'm sure it is very complicated, psychologically
speaking, but I cannot see that anyone could or should change one set of
these people to the other type.
Some people are not cut out to be bosses. You apparently are, but, like so
many things, this does not mean it will fit everyone.
You also wrote:
"So how about raising our daughters to not marry these bums..."
I think a lot of us do try to instill the proper values in our daughters (and
our sons). And yet . . . things happen which a mother cannot prevent or
predict. Certainly we can try to do our best but that doesn't mean a perfect
husband is ready or willing or needed for every girl.
Again, what is working in your life may not apply to others.
It seems to me to be very hard to address these issues successfully unless we
can embrace world views that include others' points of view.
Actually, this is one of the issues that I find comes up periodically when I
am with my children. We discuss many things and I always try to inject some
sort of perspective into the discussion. I think it is very easy for them to
get lost in their own little worlds, and even tho I try not to introduce
things too early that might upset them, I try to point out that others might
feel different than they do and that the other person's pov is valuable too
and may make sense to them and so it is not kind or correct to criticize
others simply because they play ball differently or eat different food or
have a different sort of house or go to church or some such that is different
from our life. Children seem to me to have a hard time not being
self-centered and certain that their way is the best way.
Well, back to the Sunday paper.
I'm being waaaay lazy today!
Nance
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/25/00 8:40:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
dawn@... writes:
dawn@... writes:
> It has given me the autonomy to make reproductive decisionsI believe my MIL got her tubes tied without HER consent.
> for myself (hey, I could go get my tubes tied w/o my husband's consent).
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/25/2000 5:41:01 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
kworthen@... writes:
<< $250 wk. for 5 10hr. days >>
I nearly threw up when I read this..... 5 X 10hrs per day... I'm sorry to
sound judgmental, but who in the hell would leave their baby for 10 hours a
day with an institution that warehouses other babies.... Just tell me what
kind of a person does this??? I can't be the only one that is shocked,
horrified and dismayed that women/men do this to their children and that it's
considered ok.... My baby of 9 months is sleeping an average of 14 hours a
day still, which means if he were in daycare he would never see me awake for
5 days a week and he'd only see me for 20 out of a possible 70 hours per
week.
What on earth kind of message does this send to those poor babies.... I shake
my head with shame for being part of a race and culture that accepts and
encourage parents to do this with their children. I'll deal with being
called judgmental about this if that's the price to pay. At least my
children won't be paying the price with their hearts, minds and souls....
Dawn F
kworthen@... writes:
<< $250 wk. for 5 10hr. days >>
I nearly threw up when I read this..... 5 X 10hrs per day... I'm sorry to
sound judgmental, but who in the hell would leave their baby for 10 hours a
day with an institution that warehouses other babies.... Just tell me what
kind of a person does this??? I can't be the only one that is shocked,
horrified and dismayed that women/men do this to their children and that it's
considered ok.... My baby of 9 months is sleeping an average of 14 hours a
day still, which means if he were in daycare he would never see me awake for
5 days a week and he'd only see me for 20 out of a possible 70 hours per
week.
What on earth kind of message does this send to those poor babies.... I shake
my head with shame for being part of a race and culture that accepts and
encourage parents to do this with their children. I'll deal with being
called judgmental about this if that's the price to pay. At least my
children won't be paying the price with their hearts, minds and souls....
Dawn F
Amy
<< There are some instances where a woman or man is forced to work full time
daycare for years and when I left 2 1/2 yrs. ago the center I was a charged
$250 wk. for 5 10hr. days. After you pay for gas, lunches out, formula (for
infants), etc. what's left $20. Then you pay that to the dry cleaner and
McDonald's b/c you're too tired to do laundry or cook. I don't see hte
point.
> and leave their kids in the care of others, but those instances arerare. >>
>all
> I don't understand how this can be seen as rare when about half of
> marriages end in divorce in the U.SIt is rare because daycare costs more than 1 income can pay for. I worked in
daycare for years and when I left 2 1/2 yrs. ago the center I was a charged
$250 wk. for 5 10hr. days. After you pay for gas, lunches out, formula (for
infants), etc. what's left $20. Then you pay that to the dry cleaner and
McDonald's b/c you're too tired to do laundry or cook. I don't see hte
point.
----- Original Message -----
From: <LASaliger@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom]feminism
> In a message dated 6/24/00 9:04:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> marbleface@... writes:
>
> . Furthermore, with the changes in our
> laws regarding welfare, most people need to transition off welfare in 2
> years.
> I have one aunt who had to leave her husband because he was
dangerously
> physically abusive. She has two kids and has never received normal child
> support from him. Another aunt was a stay at home mom for all of her
> marriage and has 4 kids. Her husband got involved with a woman he worked
> with and left her. She has a very low standard of living now and he was
able
> to get custody of two of the kids because of his higher income. My
cousin,
> also a stay at home mom of 4, experienced almost the same thing except
that
> her ex-husband pays child support, though not nearly enough to live on.
She
> had to go to work full-time and it was sure as heck not to have a high
> standard of living.
> I believe intensely in unschooling and being home with babies but not
> everyone can. I find it depressing and maddening to see a harsh,
judgemental
> attitude toward women who work and have kids. Our society needs to work a
> lot more at having understanding and compassion rather than always falling
> into the us or them mentality. I believe it's a form of
self-righteousness,
> the "I would NEVER do that..." meaning I am so much better than that other
> person.
>
> Lucy in Calif.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Old school buds here:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5545/14/_/448294/_/961953406/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
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>
>
Lynda
I think the difference is choice. The mother referenced does not have a
choice. Those who do and choose a career over raising their own children
seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. That's the difference.
Lynda
----------
choice. Those who do and choose a career over raising their own children
seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. That's the difference.
Lynda
----------
> Gayle Bechtel wrote:
>
> <"I have a friend that is a single mom of 4 children. The father of the
> children was a bad choice but one she had made at that point - she has
> also left him. She is raising these kids alone, father is not even
> involved(by his choice). He doesn't pay child support on time, and we
> are talking months at a time of seeing no money support. She is trying
> the best she can to just get by.
>
> Would you say she is a bad mother to have to put her kids in a daycare
> so she can work just to pay rent, electric bill, and put food on the
> table, and a few clothes on their backs(at that from Salvation
> Army)?">
>
>
>
> This is the exception rather than the rule!!! Of COURSE, situations
> like these, might be handled a little differently and more sensitively!
> I think few would argue that daycare has its place in these rare
> circumstances. By far though, the families opting for non-parental
> care, are not of such dire circumstances.
>
> Presently in Canada, the government is considering offering families a
> child care tax credit. And that is regardless of what choice a family
> makes in terms of child care. The same dollars that go into daycare
> subsidies could also go to the families with a stay-at-home mom. In
> most situations those tax dollars could help make the difference for
> having a mom (or dad) at home. As many have already written, by the
> time you pay for childcare, extra wardrobe, lunches, car, gas etc. to
> hold down a job, you have little left over. A tax credit, equal to the
> minimal amount most have left over after expenses, would probably be a
> more efficient use of public funds. Otherwise, it's a self-perpetuating
> process to trap kids in daycare.
>
> This is an unschooling issue in my mind. Unschooling, "un-daycare-ing",
> it's the same thing. It's all about the de-institutionalization of
> children!
>
>
> Sonia
>
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Lynda
My step-mother runs a daycare. She goes the extra mile and she does it
because she says it makes her sick to see where some of these babies end
up. My dad converted the garage and then added on. He built everything to
little people size and each of "Anne's kids" has their name on their little
cots and each have a Raggedy Ann or Andy she has made for them. She only
hires mothers that bring their own children along with them and is really
choosey about who she hires and heaven help them if they don't treat her
"kids" like they were their own! But, as I said, it makes her ill that she
is required to be in this business. She hates the fact that there aren't
extended families to fill the need for parents that absolutely have to
work.
I just wish I could clone her so that all those poor babies whose mother
have to work and those whose parents choose careers or things over their
needs could have a second mother and be in a real home atmosphere!
Lynda
----------
because she says it makes her sick to see where some of these babies end
up. My dad converted the garage and then added on. He built everything to
little people size and each of "Anne's kids" has their name on their little
cots and each have a Raggedy Ann or Andy she has made for them. She only
hires mothers that bring their own children along with them and is really
choosey about who she hires and heaven help them if they don't treat her
"kids" like they were their own! But, as I said, it makes her ill that she
is required to be in this business. She hates the fact that there aren't
extended families to fill the need for parents that absolutely have to
work.
I just wish I could clone her so that all those poor babies whose mother
have to work and those whose parents choose careers or things over their
needs could have a second mother and be in a real home atmosphere!
Lynda
----------
> From: NumoAstro@...a
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom]feminism
> Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000 5:53 PM
>
> In a message dated 6/25/2000 5:41:01 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
> kworthen@... writes:
>
> << $250 wk. for 5 10hr. days >>
>
> I nearly threw up when I read this..... 5 X 10hrs per day... I'm sorry to
> sound judgmental, but who in the hell would leave their baby for 10 hours
> day with an institution that warehouses other babies.... Just tell mewhat
> kind of a person does this??? I can't be the only one that is shocked,it's
> horrified and dismayed that women/men do this to their children and that
> considered ok.... My baby of 9 months is sleeping an average of 14hours a
> day still, which means if he were in daycare he would never see me awakefor
> 5 days a week and he'd only see me for 20 out of a possible 70 hours pershake
> week.
>
> What on earth kind of message does this send to those poor babies.... I
> my head with shame for being part of a race and culture that accepts and
> encourage parents to do this with their children. I'll deal with being
> called judgmental about this if that's the price to pay. At least my
> children won't be paying the price with their hearts, minds and souls....
>
> Dawn F
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> 1. Fill in the brief application
> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
> 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/26/00 1:08:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sulan@...
writes:
<< I'm sorry to
of a choice. Her ex-fiance broke off the engagement and left town. She
hasn't been able to find him since Jacob was born, he's almost 2. Her ex's
parents are of no help...they think she's a tramp. My parents are strapped,
financially, as is...but help out as much as possible. Jacob goes to daycare
for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week...but she's there. She's not in his little
age group...but she's there. I know that's not the same as what you are
talking about, but some people just have no one that they can rely on. As
sad as that is, our society has come to the point where people are so
hard-hearted that they won't even stop to help someone pick up something they
dropped, much less a single parent struggling to make ends meet. I find it
heartbreaking. When I worked for Dominoes Pizza (before being put on bedrest
with Briana)...we had this single mother who came in on Fridays. She would
count her all her coins and then tell her 2 children that they could afford
breadsticks. After a week of robbing Peter to pay Paul, all she had was $1.99
left over. I ended up getting fired because I would send her home with 2
extra large pizzas, free of charge, and the bread sticks that she insisted on
paying for. I didn't care about losing the job...I know that I was helping.
If more people were like that, children wouldn't be shoved in daycare for
their entire childhoods.
JMO
JoAnna
writes:
<< I'm sorry to
> sound judgmental, but who in the hell would leave their baby for 10 hours aMy older sister does. She works there, though. She doesn't really have much
> day with an institution that warehouses other babies.... Just tell me what
> kind of a person does this??? >>
of a choice. Her ex-fiance broke off the engagement and left town. She
hasn't been able to find him since Jacob was born, he's almost 2. Her ex's
parents are of no help...they think she's a tramp. My parents are strapped,
financially, as is...but help out as much as possible. Jacob goes to daycare
for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week...but she's there. She's not in his little
age group...but she's there. I know that's not the same as what you are
talking about, but some people just have no one that they can rely on. As
sad as that is, our society has come to the point where people are so
hard-hearted that they won't even stop to help someone pick up something they
dropped, much less a single parent struggling to make ends meet. I find it
heartbreaking. When I worked for Dominoes Pizza (before being put on bedrest
with Briana)...we had this single mother who came in on Fridays. She would
count her all her coins and then tell her 2 children that they could afford
breadsticks. After a week of robbing Peter to pay Paul, all she had was $1.99
left over. I ended up getting fired because I would send her home with 2
extra large pizzas, free of charge, and the bread sticks that she insisted on
paying for. I didn't care about losing the job...I know that I was helping.
If more people were like that, children wouldn't be shoved in daycare for
their entire childhoods.
JMO
JoAnna