Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] a bit of a screed
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/2000 11:24:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
naake1999@... writes:
<< ("What would
you do if money didn't matter" can be quite unrealistic, when it does). It
is unfair to suggest that people who use day care per se don't love their
children as much or aren't as fit parents as people who stay home with them.
are currently making money and realize they can make money doing something
they love rather than something to just make money.... Money isn't the goal
freedom is... Money just pays the bills we choose to run up. The majority of
my clients want to do something different with their lives as right now they
are just in "jobs" rather than living a lifestyle that gives them the freedom
to all the things they love, including staying at home with their kids.
Grown ups who choose to send their babies and toddlers to daycare and not
good parents by definition... In order to be good at something you actually
have to do it and if you are in one place (your bosses office) and your
children and in another (a daycare institution) then you are not doing the
job of parenting. If you told your employee that you were a good employee
and then proceeded to tell her when you wouldn't be available because of
other comittments the employer would look at your like you were crazy and you
wouldn't be hired. The damage that has been and is being done by daycare is
being well documented in this country. I can't speak for other countries.
Daycare is for parents not for babies and toddlers. I can see using daycare
if you've husband or wife died or some tragedy happened whereby you are the
only one to take care of your kids needs, but women go around getting knocked
up because they miss the love and affection they didn't get from their
parents and they believe they have a right to get it from someone else.
Sure I'm judgmental about daycare... It's a lie to pretend that everyone is
open to absoutely everything. We judge people's lifestyles and choices and
then decide if we want to be in relationships with them. It's how the world
works. If I see a homeless person I'm not going to bring him into my house
and befriend him, because I see that lifestyle as a choice that I don't want
to be involved in. The same goes for parents who put their kids in daycare.
I don't want to be involved with people who don't value their children over
money.... Because that's what it comes down to. Why else, but the almighty
buck, would anyone put their children in daycare....
By the way the daycare issue is part of my thesis and thoroughly researched.
Dawn F.
naake1999@... writes:
<< ("What would
you do if money didn't matter" can be quite unrealistic, when it does). It
is unfair to suggest that people who use day care per se don't love their
children as much or aren't as fit parents as people who stay home with them.
>>The reason to ask the question is so that people take a look at the way they
are currently making money and realize they can make money doing something
they love rather than something to just make money.... Money isn't the goal
freedom is... Money just pays the bills we choose to run up. The majority of
my clients want to do something different with their lives as right now they
are just in "jobs" rather than living a lifestyle that gives them the freedom
to all the things they love, including staying at home with their kids.
Grown ups who choose to send their babies and toddlers to daycare and not
good parents by definition... In order to be good at something you actually
have to do it and if you are in one place (your bosses office) and your
children and in another (a daycare institution) then you are not doing the
job of parenting. If you told your employee that you were a good employee
and then proceeded to tell her when you wouldn't be available because of
other comittments the employer would look at your like you were crazy and you
wouldn't be hired. The damage that has been and is being done by daycare is
being well documented in this country. I can't speak for other countries.
Daycare is for parents not for babies and toddlers. I can see using daycare
if you've husband or wife died or some tragedy happened whereby you are the
only one to take care of your kids needs, but women go around getting knocked
up because they miss the love and affection they didn't get from their
parents and they believe they have a right to get it from someone else.
Sure I'm judgmental about daycare... It's a lie to pretend that everyone is
open to absoutely everything. We judge people's lifestyles and choices and
then decide if we want to be in relationships with them. It's how the world
works. If I see a homeless person I'm not going to bring him into my house
and befriend him, because I see that lifestyle as a choice that I don't want
to be involved in. The same goes for parents who put their kids in daycare.
I don't want to be involved with people who don't value their children over
money.... Because that's what it comes down to. Why else, but the almighty
buck, would anyone put their children in daycare....
By the way the daycare issue is part of my thesis and thoroughly researched.
Dawn F.
Debra Caruso
My ex sister in law always had her son in daycare,She was making 150
week and paying over 85 dollars in childcare,whats the point?Plus she
needed nice clothes for her job,lunches,etcc.To me it is not worth it.
I know of several people who make only 200 dollar a week working full
time,don't see their kids,and pay up the nose in daycare,for what?There
is no advantage in this?Deb in Va
week and paying over 85 dollars in childcare,whats the point?Plus she
needed nice clothes for her job,lunches,etcc.To me it is not worth it.
I know of several people who make only 200 dollar a week working full
time,don't see their kids,and pay up the nose in daycare,for what?There
is no advantage in this?Deb in Va
>
> Why else, but the almighty
> > buck, would anyone put their children in daycare....
>
> Not to mention, it costs so much to have them there, I don't know how you
> make any money anyway.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>c screed
>
> >
> >
> > << ("
> > you do if money didn't matter" can be quite unrealistic, when it does).
> It
> > is unfair to suggest that people who use day care per se don't love their
> > children as much or aren't as fit parents as people who stay home with
> them.
> > >>
> >
> > The reason to ask the question is so that people take a look at the way
> they
> > are currently making money and realize they can make money doing something
> > they love rather than something to just make money.... Money isn't the
> goal
> > freedom is... Money just pays the bills we choose to run up. The majority
> of
> > my clients want to do something different with their lives as right now
> they
> > are just in "jobs" rather than living a lifestyle that gives them the
> freedom
> > to all the things they love, including staying at home with their kids.
> >
> > Grown ups who choose to send their babies and toddlers to daycare and not
> > good parents by definition... In order to be good at something you
> actually
> > have to do it and if you are in one place (your bosses office) and your
> > children and in another (a daycare institution) then you are not doing the
> > job of parenting. If you told your employee that you were a good employee
> > and then proceeded to tell her when you wouldn't be available because of
> > other comittments the employer would look at your like you were crazy and
> you
> > wouldn't be hired. The damage that has been and is being done by daycare
> is
> > being well documented in this country. I can't speak for other countries.
> > Daycare is for parents not for babies and toddlers. I can see using
> daycare
> > if you've husband or wife died or some tragedy happened whereby you are
> the
> > only one to take care of your kids needs, but women go around getting
> knocked
> > up because they miss the love and affection they didn't get from their
> > parents and they believe they have a right to get it from someone else.
> >
> > Sure I'm judgmental about daycare... It's a lie to pretend that everyone
> is
> > open to absoutely everything. We judge people's lifestyles and choices
> and
> > then decide if we want to be in relationships with them. It's how the
> world
> > works. If I see a homeless person I'm not going to bring him into my
> house
> > and befriend him, because I see that lifestyle as a choice that I don't
> want
> > to be involved in. The same goes for parents who put their kids in
> daycare.
> > I don't want to be involved with people who don't value their children
> over
> > money.... Because that's what it comes down to. >
> > By the way the daycare issue is part of my thesis and thoroughly
> researched.
> >
> > Dawn F.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Get 6 months of FREE* MSN Internet access!
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/5725/14/_/448294/_/961848673/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> GIVE YOUR WIFE A BREAK! Lowest prices on maids, lawn care, carpet
> cleaning, painting and remodeling services in your area at our new FREE website.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5744/14/_/448294/_/961848970/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
Debra Caruso
Ok here is my take on this subject....I personally feel other than
single moms who need to work.Why keep having children if we are not
there to raise them.I wouldn't want to have babies if I had to let
someone else raise them.I never understood this.I raised 4 sons.20,19,18
and 12.We did without a lot of material things that others had,but it
was well worth it.My older sons always say to me,mom I am so glad you
are here for us,none of their friends moms are ever home.Their friends
tell my sons they are so lucky they have a mom who is there.
NO amount of money,prestige,etc...is worth not being there for my sons.
I have started in the past 6 months doing business from home,and I don't
have to but I enjoy doing something for myself after 20 years,that
doesn't require me to be away from my youngest who is still home and my
husband.
When I used to go to school conferences,hardly any parents showed up due
to full time jobs.
To me if you want to work full time away from home and be a good parent
something has to suffer,and it seems to me it is the children.
My mom was always home for me,and I loved it!
My husbands mom was always working and he always was alone,and he hated
it!
We do without a lot of material things,but we are so happy,the kids are
happy.!Being a fulltime mom has always been a top honor in my book!
I had a friend who couldn't wait to have a baby.3 months later she was
working again making 225 dollars a week,and spending half of that on
childcare,I can't understand why you would leave your baby for a piddly
amount of money?Or for any reason.
I am not putting down anyone who works.There are plenty of women who
need to.I just believe kids and teens need their moms!My 2 cents....Deb
in Va
NumoAstro@... wrote:
single moms who need to work.Why keep having children if we are not
there to raise them.I wouldn't want to have babies if I had to let
someone else raise them.I never understood this.I raised 4 sons.20,19,18
and 12.We did without a lot of material things that others had,but it
was well worth it.My older sons always say to me,mom I am so glad you
are here for us,none of their friends moms are ever home.Their friends
tell my sons they are so lucky they have a mom who is there.
NO amount of money,prestige,etc...is worth not being there for my sons.
I have started in the past 6 months doing business from home,and I don't
have to but I enjoy doing something for myself after 20 years,that
doesn't require me to be away from my youngest who is still home and my
husband.
When I used to go to school conferences,hardly any parents showed up due
to full time jobs.
To me if you want to work full time away from home and be a good parent
something has to suffer,and it seems to me it is the children.
My mom was always home for me,and I loved it!
My husbands mom was always working and he always was alone,and he hated
it!
We do without a lot of material things,but we are so happy,the kids are
happy.!Being a fulltime mom has always been a top honor in my book!
I had a friend who couldn't wait to have a baby.3 months later she was
working again making 225 dollars a week,and spending half of that on
childcare,I can't understand why you would leave your baby for a piddly
amount of money?Or for any reason.
I am not putting down anyone who works.There are plenty of women who
need to.I just believe kids and teens need their moms!My 2 cents....Deb
in Va
NumoAstro@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/23/2000 11:24:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
> naake1999@... writes:
>
> << ("What would
> you do if money didn't matter" can be quite unrealistic, when it does). It
> is unfair to suggest that people who use day care per se don't love their
> children as much or aren't as fit parents as people who stay home with them.
> >>
>
> The reason to ask the question is so that people take a look at the way they
> are currently making money and realize they can make money doing something
> they love rather than something to just make money.... Money isn't the goal
> freedom is... Money just pays the bills we choose to run up. The majority of
> my clients want to do something different with their lives as right now they
> are just in "jobs" rather than living a lifestyle that gives them the freedom
> to all the things they love, including staying at home with their kids.
>
> Grown ups who choose to send their babies and toddlers to daycare and not
> good parents by definition... In order to be good at something you actually
> have to do it and if you are in one place (your bosses office) and your
> children and in another (a daycare institution) then you are not doing the
> job of parenting. If you told your employee that you were a good employee
> and then proceeded to tell her when you wouldn't be available because of
> other comittments the employer would look at your like you were crazy and you
> wouldn't be hired. The damage that has been and is being done by daycare is
> being well documented in this country. I can't speak for other countries.
> Daycare is for parents not for babies and toddlers. I can see using daycare
> if you've husband or wife died or some tragedy happened whereby you are the
> only one to take care of your kids needs, but women go around getting knocked
> up because they miss the love and affection they didn't get from their
> parents and they believe they have a right to get it from someone else.
>
> Sure I'm judgmental about daycare... It's a lie to pretend that everyone is
> open to absoutely everything. We judge people's lifestyles and choices and
> then decide if we want to be in relationships with them. It's how the world
> works. If I see a homeless person I'm not going to bring him into my house
> and befriend him, because I see that lifestyle as a choice that I don't want
> to be involved in. The same goes for parents who put their kids in daycare.
> I don't want to be involved with people who don't value their children over
> money.... Because that's what it comes down to. Why else, but the almighty
> buck, would anyone put their children in daycare....
>
> By the way the daycare issue is part of my thesis and thoroughly researched.
>
> Dawn F.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get 6 months of FREE* MSN Internet access!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5725/14/_/448294/_/961848673/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/2000 6:01:16 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
mama@... writes:
<< I am not putting down anyone who works.There are plenty of women who
need to.>>
are those the women that have chosen to have babies on their own without the
benefit of a father for their children? those are the selfish ones I love
the best. Me Me Me Me Me Me Me.... I I I I I I I I I.... Children don't have
any rights... That's pretty obvious when we hear of a peodphile who gets 6
months in prison for violating a 6 year old girl repeatedly.... Ah the joys
of America...
Dawn F
mama@... writes:
<< I am not putting down anyone who works.There are plenty of women who
need to.>>
are those the women that have chosen to have babies on their own without the
benefit of a father for their children? those are the selfish ones I love
the best. Me Me Me Me Me Me Me.... I I I I I I I I I.... Children don't have
any rights... That's pretty obvious when we hear of a peodphile who gets 6
months in prison for violating a 6 year old girl repeatedly.... Ah the joys
of America...
Dawn F
[email protected]
Re: feminism etc.
Most, if not all, of the posts I have read on this thread reference the
poster's personal experience -- i.e., my sis did this, my neighbor did this,
my mom did this, I did this.
I feel it is important to remember that there is wide, wide world out there
that has absolutely nothing to do with our own personal experiences.
To base judgements about feminism (or any other ism) on our own narrow
experiences seems mistaken to me.
And I feel it is important to remember that there may be points during one's
life when one set of circumstances fits and then another period where another
set fits. A woman may want or need (whether a "real" economic or personal,
perceived need) to work at one point and may not want or need to at another
point in her life. Children may or may not be a factor in any of this at
various stages. One may or may not have children at various ages -- younger
or older. One may have a career. A calling. Or a job.
The nuances of each individual woman's history are not easily caught in broad
sweeping statements about whether one "should" be a working mom or an at-home
mom. IMO
And a lot of factors come together, along with feminism, to present the
choices available to women today. (One tiny example -- there weren't any
computers available when I was make career choices way back in the '70s.)
While I enjoy hearing all sorts of discussions, including those involving
feminism, I hope that we can all step back from our own personal experinces
and realize that life is long and complicated and we cannot make all of these
choices for others until we have walked a mile in their shoes.
Nance (at-home-Mom, feminist, former corporate employee -- happy with all of
these choices (and thank the feminist movement for fighting for real choice
-- no matter how imperfect the progress so far) at different stages in my
life)
Most, if not all, of the posts I have read on this thread reference the
poster's personal experience -- i.e., my sis did this, my neighbor did this,
my mom did this, I did this.
I feel it is important to remember that there is wide, wide world out there
that has absolutely nothing to do with our own personal experiences.
To base judgements about feminism (or any other ism) on our own narrow
experiences seems mistaken to me.
And I feel it is important to remember that there may be points during one's
life when one set of circumstances fits and then another period where another
set fits. A woman may want or need (whether a "real" economic or personal,
perceived need) to work at one point and may not want or need to at another
point in her life. Children may or may not be a factor in any of this at
various stages. One may or may not have children at various ages -- younger
or older. One may have a career. A calling. Or a job.
The nuances of each individual woman's history are not easily caught in broad
sweeping statements about whether one "should" be a working mom or an at-home
mom. IMO
And a lot of factors come together, along with feminism, to present the
choices available to women today. (One tiny example -- there weren't any
computers available when I was make career choices way back in the '70s.)
While I enjoy hearing all sorts of discussions, including those involving
feminism, I hope that we can all step back from our own personal experinces
and realize that life is long and complicated and we cannot make all of these
choices for others until we have walked a mile in their shoes.
Nance (at-home-Mom, feminist, former corporate employee -- happy with all of
these choices (and thank the feminist movement for fighting for real choice
-- no matter how imperfect the progress so far) at different stages in my
life)
Debra Caruso
HI,
I did not think that my post was judgemental.I stated it was my
opinion.I am entitled to mine as well as everyone else is to theirs.I
didn't condemn anyone.I rarely post anything on list such as this for
this very reason.I made sure i didn't come across as my way is the only
way.If I didn't make this clear.I apologize.I feel strongly about my
beliefs,as do other people theirs.I value everyones input!
Why is it a problem when someone voice their opinion and they say it is
just that,their opinion,in this case when I posted mine.
Maybe I should have worded it differently.
I feel that a mom should be home with her baby,I didn't say I was
right,I said it was my opinion.Since when do we have to be afraid to
post our thought and opinions on the matter....???Deb in Va
Lainie Duro wrote:
I did not think that my post was judgemental.I stated it was my
opinion.I am entitled to mine as well as everyone else is to theirs.I
didn't condemn anyone.I rarely post anything on list such as this for
this very reason.I made sure i didn't come across as my way is the only
way.If I didn't make this clear.I apologize.I feel strongly about my
beliefs,as do other people theirs.I value everyones input!
Why is it a problem when someone voice their opinion and they say it is
just that,their opinion,in this case when I posted mine.
Maybe I should have worded it differently.
I feel that a mom should be home with her baby,I didn't say I was
right,I said it was my opinion.Since when do we have to be afraid to
post our thought and opinions on the matter....???Deb in Va
Lainie Duro wrote:
>
> Hi...
>
> I know I haven't introduced myself, but I have to reply to this topic. So, a brief
> intro and then my reply. I'm Lainie...mother of Monk (3). I am currently employed
> full-time outside the home, but I will be quitting my job when my second (Cole) is
> born in October. I live in Austin, TX...
>
> I think some of you have unrealistic expectations, and this thread is starting to
> make me feel like I've subscribed to Dr-Laura-dotcom. When I got pregnant with
> Monk, it was a complete surprise. We were not prepared financially to have a child
> and have one parent at home, but we were not so unprepared that I felt I needed to
> abort or put the baby up for adoption.
>
> A lot of what has been posted on this thread is posted under the assumption that
> the MOTHER must stay at home with the baby. While I believe that is the ideal,
> particularly during the first year of a baby's life, it's just not possible for
> everyone, and I don't believe it helps ANYONE to be judgmental towards their
> lifestyle (I struggle with this, too, when I encounter women who spend thousands of
> dollars on fertility treatment and end up sending their child to daycare within the
> first 2 months of life). Since both DH and I had to work, and I was the one with
> the best earning potential, my husband opted to work graveyards on the weekends so
> we didn't have to use daycare. It wasn't easy. It ISN'T easy. But it's what we HAD
> to do to get by. Thus far, Monk has shown no ill effect, is completely bonded to
> his father AND to me. I was able to nurse until Monk weaned himself, and Monk has
> the benefit of a close, trusting relationship with his father.
>
> However, there are plenty of people in this world who have loving relationships
> with their children in spite of their use of childcare. I think it's wrong to
> condemn every woman, as well as the feminist movement in general (if you want to
> see true feminism in action, check out the community at hipmama.com - a very
> SUPPORTIVE environment for SAHMs and Mamas who work outside the home as well).
> Believe it or not, the feminist movement provided women with CHOICES. I think the
> thing that makes being a stay at home mom so amazing is that it's a choice you have
> made, rather than a societal directive & I'm wondering if there wouldn't be more
> resentful parents and more messed up kids if mamas were FORCED to stay at home.
> There's no gender associated with desiring to give your child the love and
> nurturing he/she needs. My husband does it every day of the week, and he's about as
> "masculine" as they come...as well, I don't feel I will be any more "femme" when I
> am at home with the children (and I'm *still* not going to shave!)
>
> I'm honestly shocked that this thread has arisen amidst all of the cool,
> non-mainstream, supportive ideas I've seen here. Right now I'm wondering if I truly
> belong on this list at all. Discussion of a topic is one thing, but complete
> dismissal of the opposing view as wrong or immoral is the hallmark of intolerance
> and hatred.
>
> livelifelove
> Lainie
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4634/14/_/448294/_/961855501/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
Debra Caruso
One more thing,I personally don't dismiss anything anyone here says.I
read it all,think about it,and I believe everyone is entitled to their
thought,beliefs...Why do you feel attacked?My intention was only to
voice my thoughts on the matter...Deb in Va
I also love hearing different peoples views and I respect that :)
Lainie Duro wrote:
read it all,think about it,and I believe everyone is entitled to their
thought,beliefs...Why do you feel attacked?My intention was only to
voice my thoughts on the matter...Deb in Va
I also love hearing different peoples views and I respect that :)
Lainie Duro wrote:
>
> Hi...
>
> I know I haven't introduced myself, but I have to reply to this topic. So, a brief
> intro and then my reply. I'm Lainie...mother of Monk (3). I am currently employed
> full-time outside the home, but I will be quitting my job when my second (Cole) is
> born in October. I live in Austin, TX...
>
> I think some of you have unrealistic expectations, and this thread is starting to
> make me feel like I've subscribed to Dr-Laura-dotcom. When I got pregnant with
> Monk, it was a complete surprise. We were not prepared financially to have a child
> and have one parent at home, but we were not so unprepared that I felt I needed to
> abort or put the baby up for adoption.
>
> A lot of what has been posted on this thread is posted under the assumption that
> the MOTHER must stay at home with the baby. While I believe that is the ideal,
> particularly during the first year of a baby's life, it's just not possible for
> everyone, and I don't believe it helps ANYONE to be judgmental towards their
> lifestyle (I struggle with this, too, when I encounter women who spend thousands of
> dollars on fertility treatment and end up sending their child to daycare within the
> first 2 months of life). Since both DH and I had to work, and I was the one with
> the best earning potential, my husband opted to work graveyards on the weekends so
> we didn't have to use daycare. It wasn't easy. It ISN'T easy. But it's what we HAD
> to do to get by. Thus far, Monk has shown no ill effect, is completely bonded to
> his father AND to me. I was able to nurse until Monk weaned himself, and Monk has
> the benefit of a close, trusting relationship with his father.
>
> However, there are plenty of people in this world who have loving relationships
> with their children in spite of their use of childcare. I think it's wrong to
> condemn every woman, as well as the feminist movement in general (if you want to
> see true feminism in action, check out the community at hipmama.com - a very
> SUPPORTIVE environment for SAHMs and Mamas who work outside the home as well).
> Believe it or not, the feminist movement provided women with CHOICES. I think the
> thing that makes being a stay at home mom so amazing is that it's a choice you have
> made, rather than a societal directive & I'm wondering if there wouldn't be more
> resentful parents and more messed up kids if mamas were FORCED to stay at home.
> There's no gender associated with desiring to give your child the love and
> nurturing he/she needs. My husband does it every day of the week, and he's about as
> "masculine" as they come...as well, I don't feel I will be any more "femme" when I
> am at home with the children (and I'm *still* not going to shave!)
>
> I'm honestly shocked that this thread has arisen amidst all of the cool,
> non-mainstream, supportive ideas I've seen here. Right now I'm wondering if I truly
> belong on this list at all. Discussion of a topic is one thing, but complete
> dismissal of the opposing view as wrong or immoral is the hallmark of intolerance
> and hatred.
>
> livelifelove
> Lainie
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4634/14/_/448294/_/961855501/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
Debra Caruso
Well I sure didn't mean to offend you or anyone.Some times my passion
gets ahead of my brain *grin*Deb in Va
Lainie Duro wrote:
gets ahead of my brain *grin*Deb in Va
Lainie Duro wrote:
>
> Hey Debra...
>
> I don't feel at all attacked, and I don't think I was specifically talking about your
> post when I was posting. I am, however, somewhat surprised at the anti-feminist tone of a
> lot of the posts on this thread. I was trying to address that in my post, and wasn't
> addressing any one specific person. As far as you having a right to your opinion, I
> agree! My post was just a statement of my opinion, as before I posted it, it seemed that
> there was only one opinion being offered.
>
> Livelifelove
> lainie
>
> Debra Caruso wrote:
>
> > One more thing,I personally don't dismiss anything anyone here says.I
> > read it all,think about it,and I believe everyone is entitled to their
> > thought,beliefs...Why do you feel attacked?My intention was only to
> > voice my thoughts on the matter...Deb in Va
> > I also love hearing different peoples views and I respect that :)
> >
> > Lainie Duro wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi...
> > >
> > > I know I haven't introduced myself, but I have to reply to this topic. So, a brief
> > > intro and then my reply. I'm Lainie...mother of Monk (3). I am currently employed
> > > full-time outside the home, but I will be quitting my job when my second (Cole) is
> > > born in October. I live in Austin, TX...
> > >
> > > I think some of you have unrealistic expectations, and this thread is starting to
> > > make me feel like I've subscribed to Dr-Laura-dotcom. When I got pregnant with
> > > Monk, it was a complete surprise. We were not prepared financially to have a child
> > > and have one parent at home, but we were not so unprepared that I felt I needed to
> > > abort or put the baby up for adoption.
> > >
> > > A lot of what has been posted on this thread is posted under the assumption that
> > > the MOTHER must stay at home with the baby. While I believe that is the ideal,
> > > particularly during the first year of a baby's life, it's just not possible for
> > > everyone, and I don't believe it helps ANYONE to be judgmental towards their
> > > lifestyle (I struggle with this, too, when I encounter women who spend thousands of
> > > dollars on fertility treatment and end up sending their child to daycare within the
> > > first 2 months of life). Since both DH and I had to work, and I was the one with
> > > the best earning potential, my husband opted to work graveyards on the weekends so
> > > we didn't have to use daycare. It wasn't easy. It ISN'T easy. But it's what we HAD
> > > to do to get by. Thus far, Monk has shown no ill effect, is completely bonded to
> > > his father AND to me. I was able to nurse until Monk weaned himself, and Monk has
> > > the benefit of a close, trusting relationship with his father.
> > >
> > > However, there are plenty of people in this world who have loving relationships
> > > with their children in spite of their use of childcare. I think it's wrong to
> > > condemn every woman, as well as the feminist movement in general (if you want to
> > > see true feminism in action, check out the community at hipmama.com - a very
> > > SUPPORTIVE environment for SAHMs and Mamas who work outside the home as well).
> > > Believe it or not, the feminist movement provided women with CHOICES. I think the
> > > thing that makes being a stay at home mom so amazing is that it's a choice you have
> > > made, rather than a societal directive & I'm wondering if there wouldn't be more
> > > resentful parents and more messed up kids if mamas were FORCED to stay at home.
> > > There's no gender associated with desiring to give your child the love and
> > > nurturing he/she needs. My husband does it every day of the week, and he's about as
> > > "masculine" as they come...as well, I don't feel I will be any more "femme" when I
> > > am at home with the children (and I'm *still* not going to shave!)
> > >
> > > I'm honestly shocked that this thread has arisen amidst all of the cool,
> > > non-mainstream, supportive ideas I've seen here. Right now I'm wondering if I truly
> > > belong on this list at all. Discussion of a topic is one thing, but complete
> > > dismissal of the opposing view as wrong or immoral is the hallmark of intolerance
> > > and hatred.
> > >
> > > livelifelove
> > > Lainie
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws.
> > > http://click.egroups.com/1/4634/14/_/448294/_/961855501/
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> > 1. Fill in the brief application
> > 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
> > 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/5197/14/_/448294/_/961856562/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,
> contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest
> price. New FREE service!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5746/14/_/448294/_/961857082/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
Dia Garland
I think what you wrote shows fully that full time day care is *not* needed
much of the time. You and your husband made a choice to have a parent at
home with your child full time, it just was a shared thing. Would it have
been easier for you both to work during the day and stick your son in day
care? Probably. But you chose not to.
I do feel that the mother is the most important parent in the early years of
a child's life, primarily because I believe that nursing is best for babies,
and dad's can't nurse. BUT, if the choice is between dad and a stranger, of
course dad is far better!
Thanks for sharing,
Dia
much of the time. You and your husband made a choice to have a parent at
home with your child full time, it just was a shared thing. Would it have
been easier for you both to work during the day and stick your son in day
care? Probably. But you chose not to.
I do feel that the mother is the most important parent in the early years of
a child's life, primarily because I believe that nursing is best for babies,
and dad's can't nurse. BUT, if the choice is between dad and a stranger, of
course dad is far better!
Thanks for sharing,
Dia
[email protected]
I agree with you Deb... I also believe that either mother or father can stay
home. My hubbie stayed home for 4 months of Zak's life and I worked outside
of the home while I was getting my business going. Then we did split shifts
and then switched more recently to where I'm at home the most. We are
working towards going back to a more even split so that we both get out
mental needs to be with adults met as well as our needs to be with our kids.
I find that people who use daycare are very defensive about that choice. I
wonder why that is? It still comes down to money.... I would love someone to
tell me the beneift of Daycare for a baby or toddler? I have yet to find
anyone who can give me that answer. There are plenty of answers as to why it
benefits parents but none for the babies. (IMO)
Dawn F
home. My hubbie stayed home for 4 months of Zak's life and I worked outside
of the home while I was getting my business going. Then we did split shifts
and then switched more recently to where I'm at home the most. We are
working towards going back to a more even split so that we both get out
mental needs to be with adults met as well as our needs to be with our kids.
I find that people who use daycare are very defensive about that choice. I
wonder why that is? It still comes down to money.... I would love someone to
tell me the beneift of Daycare for a baby or toddler? I have yet to find
anyone who can give me that answer. There are plenty of answers as to why it
benefits parents but none for the babies. (IMO)
Dawn F
Debra Caruso
I did leave out the fathers,but I agree on that point.My youngest is so
close to his dad,they are like joined at the hip,heart,brain,etc...
Deb
NumoAstro@... wrote:
close to his dad,they are like joined at the hip,heart,brain,etc...
Deb
NumoAstro@... wrote:
>
> I agree with you Deb... I also believe that either mother or father can stay
> home. My hubbie stayed home for 4 months of Zak's life and I worked outside
> of the home while I was getting my business going. Then we did split shifts
> and then switched more recently to where I'm at home the most. We are
> working towards going back to a more even split so that we both get out
> mental needs to be with adults met as well as our needs to be with our kids.
>
> I find that people who use daycare are very defensive about that choice. I
> wonder why that is? It still comes down to money.... I would love someone to
> tell me the beneift of Daycare for a baby or toddler? I have yet to find
> anyone who can give me that answer. There are plenty of answers as to why it
> benefits parents but none for the babies. (IMO)
>
> Dawn F
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> 1. Fill in the brief application
> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
> 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5211/14/_/448294/_/961859039/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
Amy
Why else, but the almighty
make any money anyway.
> buck, would anyone put their children in daycare....Not to mention, it costs so much to have them there, I don't know how you
make any money anyway.
----- Original Message -----
From: <NumoAstro@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] a bit of a screed
> In a message dated 6/23/2000 11:24:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
> naake1999@... writes:
>
> << ("What would
> you do if money didn't matter" can be quite unrealistic, when it does).
It
> is unfair to suggest that people who use day care per se don't love their
> children as much or aren't as fit parents as people who stay home with
them.
> >>
>
> The reason to ask the question is so that people take a look at the way
they
> are currently making money and realize they can make money doing something
> they love rather than something to just make money.... Money isn't the
goal
> freedom is... Money just pays the bills we choose to run up. The majority
of
> my clients want to do something different with their lives as right now
they
> are just in "jobs" rather than living a lifestyle that gives them the
freedom
> to all the things they love, including staying at home with their kids.
>
> Grown ups who choose to send their babies and toddlers to daycare and not
> good parents by definition... In order to be good at something you
actually
> have to do it and if you are in one place (your bosses office) and your
> children and in another (a daycare institution) then you are not doing the
> job of parenting. If you told your employee that you were a good employee
> and then proceeded to tell her when you wouldn't be available because of
> other comittments the employer would look at your like you were crazy and
you
> wouldn't be hired. The damage that has been and is being done by daycare
is
> being well documented in this country. I can't speak for other countries.
> Daycare is for parents not for babies and toddlers. I can see using
daycare
> if you've husband or wife died or some tragedy happened whereby you are
the
> only one to take care of your kids needs, but women go around getting
knocked
> up because they miss the love and affection they didn't get from their
> parents and they believe they have a right to get it from someone else.
>
> Sure I'm judgmental about daycare... It's a lie to pretend that everyone
is
> open to absoutely everything. We judge people's lifestyles and choices
and
> then decide if we want to be in relationships with them. It's how the
world
> works. If I see a homeless person I'm not going to bring him into my
house
> and befriend him, because I see that lifestyle as a choice that I don't
want
> to be involved in. The same goes for parents who put their kids in
daycare.
> I don't want to be involved with people who don't value their children
over
> money.... Because that's what it comes down to. >
> By the way the daycare issue is part of my thesis and thoroughly
researched.
>
> Dawn F.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get 6 months of FREE* MSN Internet access!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5725/14/_/448294/_/961848673/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
>
Lainie Duro
Hi...
I know I haven't introduced myself, but I have to reply to this topic. So, a brief
intro and then my reply. I'm Lainie...mother of Monk (3). I am currently employed
full-time outside the home, but I will be quitting my job when my second (Cole) is
born in October. I live in Austin, TX...
I think some of you have unrealistic expectations, and this thread is starting to
make me feel like I've subscribed to Dr-Laura-dotcom. When I got pregnant with
Monk, it was a complete surprise. We were not prepared financially to have a child
and have one parent at home, but we were not so unprepared that I felt I needed to
abort or put the baby up for adoption.
A lot of what has been posted on this thread is posted under the assumption that
the MOTHER must stay at home with the baby. While I believe that is the ideal,
particularly during the first year of a baby's life, it's just not possible for
everyone, and I don't believe it helps ANYONE to be judgmental towards their
lifestyle (I struggle with this, too, when I encounter women who spend thousands of
dollars on fertility treatment and end up sending their child to daycare within the
first 2 months of life). Since both DH and I had to work, and I was the one with
the best earning potential, my husband opted to work graveyards on the weekends so
we didn't have to use daycare. It wasn't easy. It ISN'T easy. But it's what we HAD
to do to get by. Thus far, Monk has shown no ill effect, is completely bonded to
his father AND to me. I was able to nurse until Monk weaned himself, and Monk has
the benefit of a close, trusting relationship with his father.
However, there are plenty of people in this world who have loving relationships
with their children in spite of their use of childcare. I think it's wrong to
condemn every woman, as well as the feminist movement in general (if you want to
see true feminism in action, check out the community at hipmama.com - a very
SUPPORTIVE environment for SAHMs and Mamas who work outside the home as well).
Believe it or not, the feminist movement provided women with CHOICES. I think the
thing that makes being a stay at home mom so amazing is that it's a choice you have
made, rather than a societal directive & I'm wondering if there wouldn't be more
resentful parents and more messed up kids if mamas were FORCED to stay at home.
There's no gender associated with desiring to give your child the love and
nurturing he/she needs. My husband does it every day of the week, and he's about as
"masculine" as they come...as well, I don't feel I will be any more "femme" when I
am at home with the children (and I'm *still* not going to shave!)
I'm honestly shocked that this thread has arisen amidst all of the cool,
non-mainstream, supportive ideas I've seen here. Right now I'm wondering if I truly
belong on this list at all. Discussion of a topic is one thing, but complete
dismissal of the opposing view as wrong or immoral is the hallmark of intolerance
and hatred.
livelifelove
Lainie
I know I haven't introduced myself, but I have to reply to this topic. So, a brief
intro and then my reply. I'm Lainie...mother of Monk (3). I am currently employed
full-time outside the home, but I will be quitting my job when my second (Cole) is
born in October. I live in Austin, TX...
I think some of you have unrealistic expectations, and this thread is starting to
make me feel like I've subscribed to Dr-Laura-dotcom. When I got pregnant with
Monk, it was a complete surprise. We were not prepared financially to have a child
and have one parent at home, but we were not so unprepared that I felt I needed to
abort or put the baby up for adoption.
A lot of what has been posted on this thread is posted under the assumption that
the MOTHER must stay at home with the baby. While I believe that is the ideal,
particularly during the first year of a baby's life, it's just not possible for
everyone, and I don't believe it helps ANYONE to be judgmental towards their
lifestyle (I struggle with this, too, when I encounter women who spend thousands of
dollars on fertility treatment and end up sending their child to daycare within the
first 2 months of life). Since both DH and I had to work, and I was the one with
the best earning potential, my husband opted to work graveyards on the weekends so
we didn't have to use daycare. It wasn't easy. It ISN'T easy. But it's what we HAD
to do to get by. Thus far, Monk has shown no ill effect, is completely bonded to
his father AND to me. I was able to nurse until Monk weaned himself, and Monk has
the benefit of a close, trusting relationship with his father.
However, there are plenty of people in this world who have loving relationships
with their children in spite of their use of childcare. I think it's wrong to
condemn every woman, as well as the feminist movement in general (if you want to
see true feminism in action, check out the community at hipmama.com - a very
SUPPORTIVE environment for SAHMs and Mamas who work outside the home as well).
Believe it or not, the feminist movement provided women with CHOICES. I think the
thing that makes being a stay at home mom so amazing is that it's a choice you have
made, rather than a societal directive & I'm wondering if there wouldn't be more
resentful parents and more messed up kids if mamas were FORCED to stay at home.
There's no gender associated with desiring to give your child the love and
nurturing he/she needs. My husband does it every day of the week, and he's about as
"masculine" as they come...as well, I don't feel I will be any more "femme" when I
am at home with the children (and I'm *still* not going to shave!)
I'm honestly shocked that this thread has arisen amidst all of the cool,
non-mainstream, supportive ideas I've seen here. Right now I'm wondering if I truly
belong on this list at all. Discussion of a topic is one thing, but complete
dismissal of the opposing view as wrong or immoral is the hallmark of intolerance
and hatred.
livelifelove
Lainie
Lainie Duro
Hey Debra...
I don't feel at all attacked, and I don't think I was specifically talking about your
post when I was posting. I am, however, somewhat surprised at the anti-feminist tone of a
lot of the posts on this thread. I was trying to address that in my post, and wasn't
addressing any one specific person. As far as you having a right to your opinion, I
agree! My post was just a statement of my opinion, as before I posted it, it seemed that
there was only one opinion being offered.
Livelifelove
lainie
Debra Caruso wrote:
I don't feel at all attacked, and I don't think I was specifically talking about your
post when I was posting. I am, however, somewhat surprised at the anti-feminist tone of a
lot of the posts on this thread. I was trying to address that in my post, and wasn't
addressing any one specific person. As far as you having a right to your opinion, I
agree! My post was just a statement of my opinion, as before I posted it, it seemed that
there was only one opinion being offered.
Livelifelove
lainie
Debra Caruso wrote:
> One more thing,I personally don't dismiss anything anyone here says.I
> read it all,think about it,and I believe everyone is entitled to their
> thought,beliefs...Why do you feel attacked?My intention was only to
> voice my thoughts on the matter...Deb in Va
> I also love hearing different peoples views and I respect that :)
>
> Lainie Duro wrote:
> >
> > Hi...
> >
> > I know I haven't introduced myself, but I have to reply to this topic. So, a brief
> > intro and then my reply. I'm Lainie...mother of Monk (3). I am currently employed
> > full-time outside the home, but I will be quitting my job when my second (Cole) is
> > born in October. I live in Austin, TX...
> >
> > I think some of you have unrealistic expectations, and this thread is starting to
> > make me feel like I've subscribed to Dr-Laura-dotcom. When I got pregnant with
> > Monk, it was a complete surprise. We were not prepared financially to have a child
> > and have one parent at home, but we were not so unprepared that I felt I needed to
> > abort or put the baby up for adoption.
> >
> > A lot of what has been posted on this thread is posted under the assumption that
> > the MOTHER must stay at home with the baby. While I believe that is the ideal,
> > particularly during the first year of a baby's life, it's just not possible for
> > everyone, and I don't believe it helps ANYONE to be judgmental towards their
> > lifestyle (I struggle with this, too, when I encounter women who spend thousands of
> > dollars on fertility treatment and end up sending their child to daycare within the
> > first 2 months of life). Since both DH and I had to work, and I was the one with
> > the best earning potential, my husband opted to work graveyards on the weekends so
> > we didn't have to use daycare. It wasn't easy. It ISN'T easy. But it's what we HAD
> > to do to get by. Thus far, Monk has shown no ill effect, is completely bonded to
> > his father AND to me. I was able to nurse until Monk weaned himself, and Monk has
> > the benefit of a close, trusting relationship with his father.
> >
> > However, there are plenty of people in this world who have loving relationships
> > with their children in spite of their use of childcare. I think it's wrong to
> > condemn every woman, as well as the feminist movement in general (if you want to
> > see true feminism in action, check out the community at hipmama.com - a very
> > SUPPORTIVE environment for SAHMs and Mamas who work outside the home as well).
> > Believe it or not, the feminist movement provided women with CHOICES. I think the
> > thing that makes being a stay at home mom so amazing is that it's a choice you have
> > made, rather than a societal directive & I'm wondering if there wouldn't be more
> > resentful parents and more messed up kids if mamas were FORCED to stay at home.
> > There's no gender associated with desiring to give your child the love and
> > nurturing he/she needs. My husband does it every day of the week, and he's about as
> > "masculine" as they come...as well, I don't feel I will be any more "femme" when I
> > am at home with the children (and I'm *still* not going to shave!)
> >
> > I'm honestly shocked that this thread has arisen amidst all of the cool,
> > non-mainstream, supportive ideas I've seen here. Right now I'm wondering if I truly
> > belong on this list at all. Discussion of a topic is one thing, but complete
> > dismissal of the opposing view as wrong or immoral is the hallmark of intolerance
> > and hatred.
> >
> > livelifelove
> > Lainie
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/4634/14/_/448294/_/961855501/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> 1. Fill in the brief application
> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
> 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5197/14/_/448294/_/961856562/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
Brown
Wow! I go to bed and when I wake up I find this discussion which makes
feel quite ill to read. This degree of judgementalism on an unschooling
list where we discuss things like listening to our children, letting
them follow their own learning inclinations, letting them follow their
hearts, letting them learn at their ouw pace, in their own style, in
their own way, trusting them to learn what they need to know, letting
them find their own path in life etc etc.
But hey, all that stuff is, apparently, only valid for children. So when
your unschooled kids grow up and have a baby and make choices that are
different to yours, are you going to treat them to this sort of
invective? Because let me tell you, that's a sure way to drive them
away. And then they'll be on lists somewhere saying the sorts of things
we've heard about mothers on this list from time to time - so
judgemental, so intoleran't, wont even listen to my point of view etc
etc.
For what its worth, I am a committed SAHM, have been homeschooling for
14 years and love being at home. I also know people who thought they
wanted to be SAHMs but who found that they just didn't like the 'job'
(let's face it, it's something you can't possibly know you'll like until
you've tried it) and who felt that their kids were better off going to
school with teachers who liked kids, and coming home to a loving mother,
rather than staying at home with a discontented, resentful mother. Okay,
so we think they have work to do in their heads, but I'm not going to
judge them.
Some people do not have the same goals for their kids / family as I do
as a SAHM and homeschooling mother, that invole a higher income than can
be provided by one income. That doesn't mean they care less, or are
worse people - it just means they look at life differently to me. Just
as some people are christians, muslims, budhists, jews, whatever, rather
than atheist humanists like me, but that doesn't mean I condemn them as
bad, or stupid or such like - they are entitled to their own beliefs,
IMO.
Finally, I'd like to say that my husband is, IMO, a very fine parent, in
spite of the fact that he is away from home 48 hours a week working to
pay for us to stay home. Or does the
<In order to be good at something you actually have to do it and if you
are in one place (your bosses office) and your children and in another
(a daycare institution) then you are not doing
the job of parenting. >
bit only apply to women? For in fact, I am providing the daycare that
allows my husband to go to work.
I am sooo disappointed the level of intolerance in this conversation.
Carol
feel quite ill to read. This degree of judgementalism on an unschooling
list where we discuss things like listening to our children, letting
them follow their own learning inclinations, letting them follow their
hearts, letting them learn at their ouw pace, in their own style, in
their own way, trusting them to learn what they need to know, letting
them find their own path in life etc etc.
But hey, all that stuff is, apparently, only valid for children. So when
your unschooled kids grow up and have a baby and make choices that are
different to yours, are you going to treat them to this sort of
invective? Because let me tell you, that's a sure way to drive them
away. And then they'll be on lists somewhere saying the sorts of things
we've heard about mothers on this list from time to time - so
judgemental, so intoleran't, wont even listen to my point of view etc
etc.
For what its worth, I am a committed SAHM, have been homeschooling for
14 years and love being at home. I also know people who thought they
wanted to be SAHMs but who found that they just didn't like the 'job'
(let's face it, it's something you can't possibly know you'll like until
you've tried it) and who felt that their kids were better off going to
school with teachers who liked kids, and coming home to a loving mother,
rather than staying at home with a discontented, resentful mother. Okay,
so we think they have work to do in their heads, but I'm not going to
judge them.
Some people do not have the same goals for their kids / family as I do
as a SAHM and homeschooling mother, that invole a higher income than can
be provided by one income. That doesn't mean they care less, or are
worse people - it just means they look at life differently to me. Just
as some people are christians, muslims, budhists, jews, whatever, rather
than atheist humanists like me, but that doesn't mean I condemn them as
bad, or stupid or such like - they are entitled to their own beliefs,
IMO.
Finally, I'd like to say that my husband is, IMO, a very fine parent, in
spite of the fact that he is away from home 48 hours a week working to
pay for us to stay home. Or does the
<In order to be good at something you actually have to do it and if you
are in one place (your bosses office) and your children and in another
(a daycare institution) then you are not doing
the job of parenting. >
bit only apply to women? For in fact, I am providing the daycare that
allows my husband to go to work.
I am sooo disappointed the level of intolerance in this conversation.
Carol
Trisha Sides
Well said Amy
Trisha
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Trisha
>________________________________________________________________________
>Annette-
> I don't think when others talked about daycare and women who don't stay
>at home with their children in a negative way meant that every woman who
>works away from her children or uses daycare is insensitive, etc. etc. It
>doesn't even bother me when women who don't HAVE to work outside of the
>home
>do and are still able to give their children all of the love and security
>they need. What bothers me are those women and families who obviously don't
>think their lives should change once children are in the picture, who
>"need"
>to keep working so they can have a second BMW or who would go "crazy"
>sitting around all day with their children. Everything is what you make of
>it. And if you go into motherhood thinking you're just going to sit around
>with your kids all day, than you will. Parenting is such a selfless job,
>and
>those parents who put themselves first instead of their children are the
>ones that really get to me.
>
>--
>Amy Nelson
>Mama to Accalia (6/14/99)
>"The hardest to learn was the least complicated." - The Indigo Girls
>
>Someone said they believed "mothers should mother." Well, right now my
>husband is home with our kids and his small home-based business (which
>would
>not put food on our table). I work full time. I like my job a lot. And I
>mother.
>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Lynda
The sentencing for pedophiles is enough to make you want to go postal.
Recently a guy got 343 years for molesting several children. A few months
before that a teacher got probation for molesting two (that's how many went
to court) girls. Of course, the guy that got probabtion had $$$ for the
lawyer and was white. The guy that got 343 years had a PD and was a
minority. It is time that sentencing was per the crime, not race or $$$
you spend on lawyers!!!!
Lynda
----------
Recently a guy got 343 years for molesting several children. A few months
before that a teacher got probation for molesting two (that's how many went
to court) girls. Of course, the guy that got probabtion had $$$ for the
lawyer and was white. The guy that got 343 years had a PD and was a
minority. It is time that sentencing was per the crime, not race or $$$
you spend on lawyers!!!!
Lynda
----------
> From: NumoAstro@...the
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] a bit of a screed
> Date: Saturday, June 24, 2000 6:20 AM
>
> In a message dated 6/24/2000 6:01:16 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
> mama@... writes:
>
> << I am not putting down anyone who works.There are plenty of women who
> need to.>>
>
> are those the women that have chosen to have babies on their own without
> benefit of a father for their children? those are the selfish ones Ilove
> the best. Me Me Me Me Me Me Me.... I I I I I I I I I.... Children don'thave
> any rights... That's pretty obvious when we hear of a peodphile who gets6
> months in prison for violating a 6 year old girl repeatedly.... Ah thejoys
> of America...
>
> Dawn F
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Click here for a chance to win airfare to Vegas for you and 20 friends,
> $15,000 and a suite at Bellagio for New Year's from Expedia.com. Or
> win 2 roundtrip tickets anywhere in the U.S. given away daily.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5296/14/_/448294/_/961852840/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
Lynda
O.K., this is an serious, honest question and not an attempt to start any
war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think feminism
has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of feminism, we don't
have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we gained?
Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}
----------
war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think feminism
has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of feminism, we don't
have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we gained?
Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}
----------
> From: marbleface@...this,
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] a bit of a screed
> Date: Saturday, June 24, 2000 6:42 AM
>
> Re: feminism etc.
>
> Most, if not all, of the posts I have read on this thread reference the
> poster's personal experience -- i.e., my sis did this, my neighbor did
> my mom did this, I did this.there
>
> I feel it is important to remember that there is wide, wide world out
> that has absolutely nothing to do with our own personal experiences.one's
>
> To base judgements about feminism (or any other ism) on our own narrow
> experiences seems mistaken to me.
>
> And I feel it is important to remember that there may be points during
> life when one set of circumstances fits and then another period whereanother
> set fits. A woman may want or need (whether a "real" economic orpersonal,
> perceived need) to work at one point and may not want or need to atanother
> point in her life. Children may or may not be a factor in any of this atyounger
> various stages. One may or may not have children at various ages --
> or older. One may have a career. A calling. Or a job.broad
>
> The nuances of each individual woman's history are not easily caught in
> sweeping statements about whether one "should" be a working mom or anat-home
> mom. IMOexperinces
>
> And a lot of factors come together, along with feminism, to present the
> choices available to women today. (One tiny example -- there weren't any
> computers available when I was make career choices way back in the '70s.)
>
> While I enjoy hearing all sorts of discussions, including those involving
> feminism, I hope that we can all step back from our own personal
> and realize that life is long and complicated and we cannot make all ofthese
> choices for others until we have walked a mile in their shoes.of
>
> Nance (at-home-Mom, feminist, former corporate employee -- happy with all
> these choices (and thank the feminist movement for fighting for realchoice
> -- no matter how imperfect the progress so far) at different stages in my
> life)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,
> contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest
> price. New FREE service!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5746/14/_/448294/_/961854148/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
[email protected]
On 24 Jun 00, at 22:36, Lynda wrote:
I think feminism has turned a lot of women into pseudo--men, in
trying to be equal some women have denigrated what is was to be
a woman. Why they felt the need to be equal [except along the
lines of equal pay for equal work] is beyond me, why strive to be
what you are not, men and women are not equal, they are different.
Personally I like it when a man opens a door for me or raises his
hat as a greeting, however many men are afraid to open doors
because of responses they sometimes encounter "I CAN OPEN
DOORS FOR MYSELF" etc.
I personally can't think of any real good that has come from the
feminism movement. I'm talking 60s here, as it was earlier
feminists that gained the vote for women and the acceptance of
women wearing trousers they were good things. But on the down
side the feminist movement has made women say such things as
"I'm ONLY a housewife" with shame instead of the pride women
once felt in their role as wife and Mother.
Men and women are different and thank Mother Nature for that
difference! I can work as hard and as long as many men,
especially since I can wear jeans and not be restricted by the type
of garment I am wearing, but it sure feels good when working hard
to have a pair of strong male arms there to help out with the real
heavy stuff. Most men are physically stronger and larger than
most women, this is an inescapable fact, a fact which is driven
home to me each time I work alongside my 15 year old son who
just two years ago had the body and strength of a child. To see
the way he can lift things with one arm that I have to fight to move
with both of mine reinforces that difference.
In most cases the differences between male and female are
complimentary, our strengths and weaknesses are often at
opposite ends of the poles, so together can make a good team.
I have been a SAHM Mom for many years, I have worked a few part
time jobs [tupperware etc] especially in the earlier years. The
most important thing to me when deciding on what work I could do
was to ensure that either my Mother or husband would be available
to look after the children while I was working. This was for little
extras, my oldest son was really into computers and devoured
books on the subject long before we had one, so I sold tupperware
to buy a Commodore 64 for his use. Now I guess I am sort of a
working Mom, but the big difference is that I work at home so I am
here if the kids need me, and another big bonus is that they can be
involved and understand what I do.
Summing up; for me feminism has given me the right to vote and
wear jeans, however it has taken from me the chance to feel as
though society values my role, if there is no $ value on it then it
doesn't seem to have a value.
Sue
The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm
"To believe in something, and not to live it,
is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi
> O.K., this is an serious, honest question and not an attempt to start anyGood question Lynda....
> war. I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think feminism
> has gotten for us. Rowe vs. Wade was not the result of feminism, we don't
> have equal pay for equal work, so exactly what have we gained?
>
> Lynda, who will now jump into her flame proof suit %-}
>
> ----------
I think feminism has turned a lot of women into pseudo--men, in
trying to be equal some women have denigrated what is was to be
a woman. Why they felt the need to be equal [except along the
lines of equal pay for equal work] is beyond me, why strive to be
what you are not, men and women are not equal, they are different.
Personally I like it when a man opens a door for me or raises his
hat as a greeting, however many men are afraid to open doors
because of responses they sometimes encounter "I CAN OPEN
DOORS FOR MYSELF" etc.
I personally can't think of any real good that has come from the
feminism movement. I'm talking 60s here, as it was earlier
feminists that gained the vote for women and the acceptance of
women wearing trousers they were good things. But on the down
side the feminist movement has made women say such things as
"I'm ONLY a housewife" with shame instead of the pride women
once felt in their role as wife and Mother.
Men and women are different and thank Mother Nature for that
difference! I can work as hard and as long as many men,
especially since I can wear jeans and not be restricted by the type
of garment I am wearing, but it sure feels good when working hard
to have a pair of strong male arms there to help out with the real
heavy stuff. Most men are physically stronger and larger than
most women, this is an inescapable fact, a fact which is driven
home to me each time I work alongside my 15 year old son who
just two years ago had the body and strength of a child. To see
the way he can lift things with one arm that I have to fight to move
with both of mine reinforces that difference.
In most cases the differences between male and female are
complimentary, our strengths and weaknesses are often at
opposite ends of the poles, so together can make a good team.
I have been a SAHM Mom for many years, I have worked a few part
time jobs [tupperware etc] especially in the earlier years. The
most important thing to me when deciding on what work I could do
was to ensure that either my Mother or husband would be available
to look after the children while I was working. This was for little
extras, my oldest son was really into computers and devoured
books on the subject long before we had one, so I sold tupperware
to buy a Commodore 64 for his use. Now I guess I am sort of a
working Mom, but the big difference is that I work at home so I am
here if the kids need me, and another big bonus is that they can be
involved and understand what I do.
Summing up; for me feminism has given me the right to vote and
wear jeans, however it has taken from me the chance to feel as
though society values my role, if there is no $ value on it then it
doesn't seem to have a value.
Sue
The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm
"To believe in something, and not to live it,
is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi
[email protected]
In a message dated 06/25/2000 5:55:29 AM !!!First Boot!!!, lurine@...
writes:
<< I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think feminism
has gotten for us. >>
Choice.
Not perfect and not accepted by everyone as my right and my daughter's right
and it can be difficult and complicated.
But I'll take choice any day of the week, no matter how difficult and
complicated.
To be taken seriously as a complete human being for the entire course of my
life, not to have to conform to some preconceived notion of how I should
live, to have opportunities available, to be traditional or radical, or both
at different times, to be respected, to be able to thrive and reach my full
potential, as a mother and daughter and sister and wife and complete human
being. For my daughter to have this same level of choice and respect -- or
more.
It's a struggle and a job of balancing and susceptible to the vagaries of
life and health and the economy and relationships and others' interpretations
of what my rights should be and luck.
But that there is a fundamental level of choice and respect for those choices
and my ability to make them.
That this was not recognized previously and now it is.
This is the most important focus of feminism that I see.
You, of course, have the choice to disagree.
Take care.
Nance
writes:
<< I would really like to hear exactly what it is folks think feminism
has gotten for us. >>
Choice.
Not perfect and not accepted by everyone as my right and my daughter's right
and it can be difficult and complicated.
But I'll take choice any day of the week, no matter how difficult and
complicated.
To be taken seriously as a complete human being for the entire course of my
life, not to have to conform to some preconceived notion of how I should
live, to have opportunities available, to be traditional or radical, or both
at different times, to be respected, to be able to thrive and reach my full
potential, as a mother and daughter and sister and wife and complete human
being. For my daughter to have this same level of choice and respect -- or
more.
It's a struggle and a job of balancing and susceptible to the vagaries of
life and health and the economy and relationships and others' interpretations
of what my rights should be and luck.
But that there is a fundamental level of choice and respect for those choices
and my ability to make them.
That this was not recognized previously and now it is.
This is the most important focus of feminism that I see.
You, of course, have the choice to disagree.
Take care.
Nance
[email protected]
>>It is time that sentencing was per the crime, not race or $$$you spend on lawyers!!!!>>
never a truer word was spoken.
Dawn