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In a message dated 8/7/2004 11:32:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
phunkymamaof2@... writes:

so what if this kid eats only organic vegetarian, there is no way in
the world i would let my kid eat your fast food!! lol there is no way
my kid would be drinking a coke filled with all those chemicals
supporting a company that kills their employees to keep them quiet
and rules our marketplace<<<<<

And when he's ten or 12 or 15 and DOES these things---eat fast food and
drink a Coke----how will you treat him then? HE may feel incredible guilt in
letting YOU down. Then it becomes a psychological problem. He may hide it because
he doesn't want to hurt you. He may NOT hide it and totally rebel against
what he feels has been a controlled childhood and eat ONLY fast food.

He may NOT, but thinking about how limiting and controlling what he eats as
a child can be interpreted by the child as he grows and finds out more about
the world and about his trust in YOU is very important for unschoolers.

~Kelly




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 8/8/2004 1:20:47 PM Central Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

And when he's ten or 12 or 15 and DOES these things---eat fast food and
drink a Coke----how will you treat him then? HE may feel incredible guilt
in
letting YOU down. Then it becomes a psychological problem. He may hide it
because
he doesn't want to hurt you. He may NOT hide it and totally rebel against
what he feels has been a controlled childhood and eat ONLY fast food


~~~

My oldest son will be 22 next Tuesday. He's been married for a year. By
Christmas he'll be in Iraq serving with the Army. He's a grown-up.

On Father's Day he called me. He said, "Mom, I have a confession to make."
Thinking he was going to tell me something I probably already knew, or
wouldn't be surprised about, (or that his wife is pregnant <g>), I laughed and
said, "yeah, what?"

"Mandy and I bought handguns."

Not what I was expecting to hear. He rushed on, "I know how you feel about
guns in the house, but I just want you to know that the Army says I can have
one in addition to my weapon in Iraq. And Mandy's going to be living alone
the whole time I'm gone and she's going to keep it in the bedroom. And when I
was buying it I felt so *guilty* like I was betraying everything you taught
me."

I said, "The better armed you are in Iraq, the happier I will be."

He was glad to hear it, and relieved. And he went on to say how he thought
I wouldn't really be upset because I know he's grown up now, but that he
still felt guilty about it. We talked a bit more, and he wanted to make sure
that he knew if Will was around their house he'd have to keep them locked in the
container, and that sometimes when they come to our house they'll be in the
trunk of the car, but that he'd never bring it into my house.

His father and I have been divorced since he was 4. His father hunts and
has lots of guns in the house. Jake has grown up hunting and shooting target
whenever he was with his dad. I would often reiterate about gun safety with
him and his brother, and I know their father did, too. I was in the Army
National Guard for 10 years, and I was trained to shoot rifles and repair all
kinds of weapons, but I still wouldn't have one in my house. I *never* would
have guessed that he'd feel like he "betrayed" me or guilty about buying a gun
for himself as a married adult man.

I have to say that I felt incredibly honored that he took me into such
consideration before making a decision about his very own life, but I didn't
expect it at all. I would have felt horible if he had considered how I feel about
it and then NOT bought the guns because of that.

I guess my point is that we don't know what's going to sink in with our
kids. The choices we make today and the things we tell them can have long
lasting effects, and they can be grown before you know about it. I say choose
wisely how strongly to voice your opinions about your kids' choices.

Karen


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In a message dated 8/8/2004 3:28:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:

I guess my point is that we don't know what's going to sink in with our
kids. The choices we make today and the things we tell them can have long
lasting effects, and they can be grown before you know about it. I say
choose
wisely how strongly to voice your opinions about your kids' choices. <<<<

Right. It's about your opinion and their choices. It's NOT about food or
guns or tv or video games.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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At 04:46 PM 8/8/04, Kelly wrote:
>Right. It's about your opinion and their choices. It's NOT about food or
>guns or tv or video games.

One of the best realizations I have had in my life is that I don't really
know anything for sure. I have strong opinions about certain things, but I
accept that I may be wrong. Even about the ideas that are most dear to me:
breastfeeding, unschooling, healthy living, etc.

Once I realized this, I also realized I did not have to be absolutely
certain about something to believe in it, to adopt it and to promote it,
nor did I have to reject other people's beliefs if they were different from
mine. I don't fight against anything, I only fight for the ideas I feel
strongly about.

This has been good for unschooling. My children are not me. They will make
choices I would not make. That's okay, even if their choices are completely
opposite to mine.

Then again, I could be wrong.

Donna

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In a message dated 8/8/04 1:28:21 PM, tuckervill2@... writes:

<< "Mandy and I bought handguns."

<<Not what I was expecting to hear. He rushed on, "I know how you feel
about
guns in the house, but I just want you to know that the Army says I can have
one in addition to my weapon in Iraq. And Mandy's going to be living alone
the whole time I'm gone and she's going to keep it in the bedroom. And when
I
was buying it I felt so *guilty* like I was betraying everything you taught
me." >>

I have a friend who grew up in an apartment up high in Manhatten, just
himself and one sister, and his very Jewish mother who worked as a nurse. He
moved to Arizona to go to college. He moved there to be as far away as he could
be.

I met him through the SCA and mutual friends. He was a good fencer, but his
mom wouldn't have approved of that sword nonsense.

He moved to Albuquerque and I hung out with him some. He used our family as
a "See mom? I have respectable friends" when she came to visit. We went over
with our cute little children and talked to her about respectable things, and
bragged her son up to her.

He was finishing a PhD in physics AND on the side for fun, getting a master's
degree in early English literature, studying Jacobean theatre mostly. He
bought a jeep and he bought a handgun, and used to go with friends to a target
range. Never hunting, he didn't hike so he wouldn't even have shot a snake.
It wasn't for self defense, even, it was target shooting.

When he went to visit his mom, the receipt fell out of his backpack ("fell
out of his backpack" is the official pronouncement) and she found it. Not the
gun, that was in New Mexico. The receipt for the purchase of a gun.

He was probably 28 at the time. She freaked out totally. Beyond all
reasonable behavior.

Result? He married someone from here and moved to Nevada, and if she wants
to see him she can go to Nevada, knowing he has a jeep (she was also big on
using public transportation and not owning a vehicle, but she was also a lifelong
apartment dwelling resident of Manhattan) and a gun.

Their relationship was built on him doing what she said and being a good
student. He was a surpassingly "good student," and taught physics for a while
after he got his PhD and now works for the government. Being a success,
though, didn't earn him any manhood points with her. Because his mother couldn't
control him into his adult life, she has lost him as a companion and confidant.


Karen's story about her son's gun is much more positive.

The same principles can apply to religion, politics, hobbies, diet...


Sandra

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In a message dated 8/9/2004 8:03:02 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

Karen's story about her son's gun is much more positive.

The same principles can apply to religion, politics, hobbies, diet...



~~~

Yeah. And Jake wasn't unschooled at all. He was homeschooled one year, and
I was attempting to let him deschool, but he resisted. He went back to
school but I suggested he live with his father nearby to do it, which helped us
not mess up the unschooling life we had developed.

However, he was *different* when he got back to school. He saw it as a
system to be worked, and work it he did. Even though he was never unschooled, he
has benefitted from the change unschooling made in *me*, and the years I
spent putting my authoritarian parenting in the trash can. As the oldest, he
suffered the most, but there are many many things that are different for him
now because of unschooling that weren't even on my radar when he was little.

Karen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 8/7/2004 11:21:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
angels_heart82@... writes:

I saw a
post that said, well you are letting your child choose
now, but what about in the future. Assuming or
implying that parent will fail at unschooling in the
future. <<<<

No, not assuming a parent will fail at unschooling, but assuming that a
parent will fail to allow a child *choice* in the future if she is unwilling to
allow *choice* NOW.

The sooner a child is allowed to chose, the sooner he will make mistakes
that will cause him to rethink his earlier choice. Making small decisions now is
an easy way to make wiser ones the next time. Making a bad decision with
five dollars is really nothing compared to a bad decision with $50,000.

Too often, parents will make all their children's decisions FOR them because
the parents "know better". Because the parents have more "life experiences".
But making those mistakes (or making wise decisions the first
time----thinking them through to logical consequences) is a HUGE part of the learning
experience----and therefore, gained life experiences that the parent feels so
adamant about. The child needs his own.

LET the kid have them! He may surprise you!

A parent who is controlling NOW with a toddler will have a harder time
letting go as the child grows. By teenhood, the child will be tired of being
controlled and rebel----or WORSE!----fall right into the rut of allowing others to
make all decisions as far as he's concerned and be unable to logically make
*any* decision.

Assuming a child will make bad choices/decisions is a mainstream/schoolish
idea. Many of us have noticed that it's NOT true. If he's allowed to think it
through, a child will learn quickly what's best for *him*. Not for you,
necessarily; you may have to bite your tongue! <g>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

** No, not assuming a parent will fail at unschooling, but assuming that a
parent will fail to allow a child *choice* in the future if she is
unwilling to
allow *choice* NOW.

The sooner a child is allowed to chose, the sooner he will make mistakes
that will cause him to rethink his earlier choice. Making small
decisions now is
an easy way to make wiser ones the next time. Making a bad decision with
five dollars is really nothing compared to a bad decision with $50,000.**

Yes. And the child learns *much* more from doing than from being told
what to do.

I would estimate that a parental lecture or warning is only about 5%
effective in creating real learning. Trying something yourself and
screwing up or falling down is more than 90% effective in creating new
understanding and probably different future behavior.

I *hate* making mistakes, but I learn from them more than from anything.

Betsy


(disclaimer: these numbers were pulled out of my .... um....
assumptions. <G>)

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In a message dated 8/10/04 9:07:27 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< I would estimate that a parental lecture or warning is only about 5%

effective in creating real learning. Trying something yourself and

screwing up or falling down is more than 90% effective in creating new

understanding and probably different future behavior. >>

On the other hand, about warnings, the way people come to have faith in
another person's advice is that they don't take it and then they wish they had.
Better for a pre-pubescent kid to have REAL faith in parent's ideas, and
theories, and advice, than for the parent to wait until a kid is 14 or 15 and in the
throes of the biological change leading to going out on his own, and THEN give
them practice making choices.

As my kids have been making lots of their own choices since before
homeschooling was a thought, and they're 12, 15 and 18 and making really good choices,
I feel qualified at at least the anecdotal level to say so.

Sandra

Laura Bourdo

> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:15:02 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...

> Better for a pre-pubescent kid to have REAL faith in parent's ideas, and
> theories, and advice, than for the parent to wait until a kid is 14 or 15
and in the
> throes of the biological change leading to going out on his own, and THEN
give
> them practice making choices.

LOL

This reminded me of a conversatation Liam and I had the other day. My kids
love to tease me (now that they're 19 and 16, respectively) about how I may
have never spanked or grounded them, but I punished them inhumanely,
nonetheless, by talking them to death. <g>

Honestly, I kept the discussions short, sweet, to the point -- which was to
help them learn to talk to one another effectively and to work out the
problem on their own -- and ALWAYS followed it up directly with a hug and a
kiss, no matter how mad I might have been when we started (although there
might have been some quiet, alone time at the begining to allow all parties
to chill...) My big thing was to teach the kids how to really listen to one
another, how to respect each others' perspectives, etc. We rarely talked
for longer than five or ten minutes, max, and that was only when they were
quite a bit older. I know it just seemd like forever to them.

So anyway, that's their perception, and I can't convince them otherwise.

Well, a couple of months ago, Liam spent the weekend away with friends
playing D&D. They were with one of the boys' family at a retreat center of
some kind, and were more or less stuck with each other for the duration.
First time they'd tried this. Sure enough, a disagreement broke out and
soon two of the boys weren't speaking to each other. It was threatening the
entire weekend, not to mention the continuity of the game. <gasp>

Liam, he just got around to telling me in this discussion recently, stayed
out of it as long as he could, then finally intervened and said, 'Look, if
you guys can't get this settled, why don't you try something that used to wo
rk for my sister and me.'

Yep, you guessed it. He put them in separate places until they'd each
calmed down, then called them together and helped them to listen to one
another, speaking calmly, and behaving respectfully to one another. The
spat was settled quickly, and they enjoyed the rest of the weekend with no
problems.

I punched Liam in the arm when he told me this story. The little rat. And
I thought he hadn't been paying attention all those years. <bwg>

Laura B.