Laura Bourdo

<<Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:12:35 -0000
From: "eriksmama2001" <scubamama@...>

Interdependence and consensual living are both processes of
interacting with others, innate processes. The constructs of power
and independence are *learned* processes of living separately from
others. The use of power and fear in relationships can not create
connectivity or love. It is precisely the use of coercion that
destroys the desire for interdependence. Can one live without
connectivity or love?

Pat>>

This thread has repeatedly drawn me back to an early 20th C. quote I read
recently from Irish Nationalist Sir Roger Casement, who was eventually
executed by the British government for his part in the Easter Uprising of
1916. It has become a part of my quotation library, and might be a good
addition to this discussion on democracy in general and how it relates to
interpersonal relationships in specific.

It's not hard to replace the words, "the governing of Ireland by England"
with something like, "the management of an autocratic family..." and get a
real feel for what we're talking about here, universal themes being what
they are.

"Loyalty is a sentiment, not a law. It rests on love, not on restraint.
The governing of Ireland by England rests on restraint and not on love; and
since it demands no love, it can evoke no loyalty." Sir Roger Casement,
1916

This quotation and this discussion have struck me so deeply because my
family is currently struggling with what it means to respond appropriately
to the extended end-of-life needs of an extremely autocratic father. My
siblings and I well recognize a strong sense of responsibility, but I, for
one, cannot get my heart into it, and this causes me much guilt.

I realize when I contemplate this passage and part of the one above ("The
use of power and fear in relationships cannot create connectivity or
love."), that there is no sense of connection or loyalty for me in this
situation. There may be the requisite sense of "love," but it is a shallow
thing, rooted in a sense of familial responsibility, not in a deep sense of
the desire for interconnectivity.

I know what I have done and continue to do to foster a true and deep love
and loyalty between my dh and I and our children -- I have tried, very
consciously, to build something fruitful out of the aridity of the past, but
what of my responsibility to my father? I honestly feel no loyalty to him,
and yet...

It is how we face these truths and act on them that we are prepared for the
tests of the future with our own families. It is how I act here that my
children take clues as to how to act with me when my time comes, down the
road, is it not?

Have any of you faced these questions? And what have you done?

Thanks in advance,
Laura B.

[email protected]

<< There may be the requisite sense of "love," but it is a shallow
thing, rooted in a sense of familial responsibility, not in a deep sense of
the desire for interconnectivity. >>

My mom died last fall. She was verbally abusive and dishonest to the end
(sprinkled with momentary attempts to express gratitude or tenderness). All the
kids saw her twice before she died, and Holly and I saw her several times,
going nearly every day to take care of her at her apartment, deliver/pick up
laundry, do her dishes, change her bed, etc.

<< It is how I act here that my children take clues as to how to act with me
when my time comes, down the road, is it not?>>

My kids know many stories of how my mom was with me, and they have their own
experiences with her, too. If their feelings about me are as mixed as mine
were about my mom, that will be about the way I treated them, not about the
way I treated my mom. When my mom was dying, I thought very little about her
relationship with her own mom. Though my mom travelled 600 miles to attend
my granny's funeral, she got drunk and decided not to go, instead, once she was
at the house. That did comfort me when I decided not to be there when my
mom's ashes were scattered. I did take care of the cremation and get the ashes
to my sister.

What I did and thought, Laura, in those last days was that I needed to do
enough to keep me from regretting my actions for the rest of my life. I
accomplished that. It wasn't easy, and her best friend who was supposed to be helping
wasn't as much help as she offered to be. My mom had lied different lies to
both of us, though, and tried to set us against one another (inexplicable,
irrational, typical). So for my sake and Holly's, I helped her a lot the last
few weeks.

Sandra

eriksmama2001

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.


-- William Shakespeare


This is one of my guiding principles.

What specifically are you having to decide? Whether to use artificial
means of life support? What are his wishes? Honor those reguardless
of your own wishes or connection. For example, my husband
wants "everything done" in the case of dire health situations. I
myself, having been a critical care nurse for years, know I do not
want to suffer indefinitely, and have a notorized Living Will.
Despite our differences in desires, we both will honor our individual
wishes. We fortunately have discussed these many times, with
clarifications as each new consideration has arisen.

As most people haven't the foreknowledge of another's wishes in this
end-of-life situation, generally the medical field assumes
that "everything" must be done. If you feel that you can be objective
about considering what his wishes might have been, such as from
discussions or comments about others in similar situations,
communicate his probable wishes to his medical team. If you feel that
you can not be objective due to your own issues with him, remove
yourself from the decision making process. My father and I are more
than estranged, in no way could I be objective in these decisions
unless his wishes were in writing; therefore, I would not participate
in the process.

As far as modeling for your family, if you have not been true to
yourself about your relationship with your father than you could not
have been true to them either. I realized that I was falsely
representing my father as a trusted member of our family to our son,
when this was not true. Sadly and with great difficulty, I decided to
remove my father from our lives. I knew that this was the only way to
be true to myself and to my family. The example of disconnecting was
horrifically troubling, but the prospect of being dishonest to my
family about my relationship to my father was far worse. (sexual
abuse)

If the decision is related to his extended personal care, such as in
your home. The above holds true. If you haven't been honest about the
relationship with yourself, it is difficult to have been honest with
your family. My father and I superficially had a relationship,
but "made nice" whenever we were together. This won't work 24/7.
Depending on the age of your family members, each can understand
various elements of your truth.

Furthermore, my husband was emotionally and financially devoted to
his mother, but she still didn't live with us her last years of life.
We did everything we personally decided was best for our immediate
family but having her live with us would not have been a healthy
situation, in our opinion. Practical, financial, emotional,
psycological reasons. OUR reasons, only you know what is best for
you. Inquire about your families thoughts, concerns, suggestions,
opinions. Questioning yourself and them about their individual needs
will guide you.

Pat






--- In [email protected], "Laura Bourdo"
<LauraBourdo@h...> wrote:
> <<Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:12:35 -0000
> From: "eriksmama2001" <scubamama@e...>
>
> Interdependence and consensual living are both processes of
> interacting with others, innate processes. The constructs of power
> and independence are *learned* processes of living separately from
> others. The use of power and fear in relationships can not create
> connectivity or love. It is precisely the use of coercion that
> destroys the desire for interdependence. Can one live without
> connectivity or love?
>
> Pat>>
>
> This thread has repeatedly drawn me back to an early 20th C. quote
I read
> recently from Irish Nationalist Sir Roger Casement, who was
eventually
> executed by the British government for his part in the Easter
Uprising of
> 1916. It has become a part of my quotation library, and might be a
good
> addition to this discussion on democracy in general and how it
relates to
> interpersonal relationships in specific.
>
> It's not hard to replace the words, "the governing of Ireland by
England"
> with something like, "the management of an autocratic family..."
and get a
> real feel for what we're talking about here, universal themes being
what
> they are.
>
> "Loyalty is a sentiment, not a law. It rests on love, not on
restraint.
> The governing of Ireland by England rests on restraint and not on
love; and
> since it demands no love, it can evoke no loyalty." Sir Roger
Casement,
> 1916
>
> This quotation and this discussion have struck me so deeply because
my
> family is currently struggling with what it means to respond
appropriately
> to the extended end-of-life needs of an extremely autocratic
father. My
> siblings and I well recognize a strong sense of responsibility, but
I, for
> one, cannot get my heart into it, and this causes me much guilt.
>
> I realize when I contemplate this passage and part of the one above
("The
> use of power and fear in relationships cannot create connectivity or
> love."), that there is no sense of connection or loyalty for me in
this
> situation. There may be the requisite sense of "love," but it is a
shallow
> thing, rooted in a sense of familial responsibility, not in a deep
sense of
> the desire for interconnectivity.
>
> I know what I have done and continue to do to foster a true and
deep love
> and loyalty between my dh and I and our children -- I have tried,
very
> consciously, to build something fruitful out of the aridity of the
past, but
> what of my responsibility to my father? I honestly feel no loyalty
to him,
> and yet...
>
> It is how we face these truths and act on them that we are prepared
for the
> tests of the future with our own families. It is how I act here
that my
> children take clues as to how to act with me when my time comes,
down the
> road, is it not?
>
> Have any of you faced these questions? And what have you done?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Laura B.

crazeemom77043

--- In [email protected], "eriksmama2001"
<scubamama@e...> wrote:
> This above all: to thine own self be true,
> And it must follow, as the night the day,
> Thou canst not then be false to any man.
>
>
> -- William Shakespeare
>
>
> This is one of my guiding principles.


That's a good one. Had forgotten it.


>
> What specifically are you having to decide?


He is looking at an extended care situation in CA, and my brother and
sister are seriously pressing to bring him back here to Houston -- to
live with my brother and his wife near me, where I would be expected
to contribute to his care on a daily basis, as I "don't work" --
until he is either able to live again independently or (more likely)
dies. It could be years. He is not in life-threatening
circumstances now, but he has nowhere else to go during long-term
rehab than a nursing home in CA, and my brother and sister cannot,
apparently, live with that option. I would just as soon leave him
there, frankly. It's cold, but he hasn't cared about us for years
and years, and isn't thinking about us now; why should we turn our
lives upside down in this charade of family-togetherness now? I'm
dealing with sexual abuse issues, as you are, Pat, and they should be
dealing with their physical abuse, neglect, and abandonment issues,
but they seem to be quite happy to overlook all of that.


> As far as modeling for your family, if you have not been true to
> yourself about your relationship with your father than you could
not
> have been true to them either. I realized that I was falsely
> representing my father as a trusted member of our family to our
son,
> when this was not true. Sadly and with great difficulty, I decided
to
> remove my father from our lives.


This is what I'm struggling with. When he lived far away and was
independent, I could just ignore the relationship altogether except
on holidays for phone calls, and then focus on the positives (and
there are some), and "make nice," as you say. The children have
never developed a real relationship with him -- his choice, but I was
just as happy with it. Now, everything is threatening to change.

My daughter is old enough for me to explain to her why I have to
distance myself from my father, and she supports me wholeheartedly.
My husband is also in full support. My son, however, still dreams of
having a real grandfather, and wants him here too, and I feel that he
is too young to hear the real reasons at this time.

I know that I can talk to my sibs and distance myself from this
before the final decisions and the move are made, and they will
respect my wishes, but there are bound to be hard feelings as time
drags on and they have to bear the burden alone.

And I still struggle with feelings that if my children see me
ignoring my father in his time of need, no matter how bad he has been
in the past, that they will question my commitment to my values of
love and respect for others.

The words of that Casement quote strike such a chord within me, but I
still struggle with it: (paraphrased) "Loyalty is a sentiment, not a
law. It rests on love, not on restraint. The management of an
autocratic family rests on restraint and not on love; and since it
demands no love, it can evoke no loyalty."

How do you explain to a young person (ds has just turned 16 and is
very sensitive) that you feel no loyalty to a person who SHOULD have
loved you (and who did love you in his own limited way, honestly),
but largely terrorized and abused you instead? That I cannot rise
above this and do the right thing in the end? It's so easy to say
that the "right thing" is to take care of myself and to keep the
distance, but should I not be bigger than that? I am so torn.

And to keep this in the general realm of our discussion on democracy
in the family -- I really didn't mean this to become an analysis of
my family problems...I'm sorry -- this is still the overriding
question: If we are to model for our children lives built on love and
loyalty, how do we transcend our own histories of restraint,
coercion, and disconnectivity? Do we tell the stories and explain
how we are intentionally doing things differently? Do we ignore the
past and build the future upon our consciously-chosen ideals? When
faced with dilemmas of values such as the one I describe in my own
life, how much do we say...and at what ages?

Thanks for putting up with my ramblings,
Laura B.

crazeemom77043

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

My mom died last fall. She was verbally abusive and dishonest to
the end
> (sprinkled with momentary attempts to express gratitude or
tenderness).


I'm sorry, Sandra. I know how it feels.


> My kids know many stories of how my mom was with me, and they have
their own
> experiences with her, too. If their feelings about me are as
mixed as mine
> were about my mom, that will be about the way I treated them, not
about the
> way I treated my mom.


This is comforting. How old is Holly? I'm just not sure how much to
share with my son. Somehow, it feels disloyal to talk about the old
man, but then I realize that keeping these family secrets does
nothing but protect the perpetrator. We need to know our family
stories. The secrets need to be told, don't they?

I certainly hope, and have worked hard to keep this from happening,
that my children will most certainly NOT have such mixed feelings
about me. Lord, have mercy. But I know what you mean. Their
feelings will be about me, in the end, not about how I treated my own
father. If I have been consistent in my love for them, or as
consistent as I can be...have loved them as unconditionally as I
can...have respected and honored them as human beings in their own
rights (in other words, gifted them in ways I was never gifted by my
own father), they will know me for who I am, and will accept my
actions at their face value. Is that about the gist of it?

>
> What I did and thought, Laura, in those last days was that I needed
to do
> enough to keep me from regretting my actions for the rest of my
life. <snip> So for my sake and Holly's, I helped her a lot the last
> few weeks.


Two questions for clarification. Despite your mother's history with
you, you still felt it necessary to honor her with your love and
attention at the end of her life. I admire you for that, and it is
this with which I am struggling. The question: Would you have been
able to commit to that sort of care over a MUCH longer period of
time, or would you have had to create more distance to protect
yourself?

Second question: What, exactly, do you mean when you say, "for
Holly's sake?"

Laura

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/2/04 1:26:00 AM, LauraBourdo@... writes:

<< If we are to model for our children lives built on love and

loyalty, how do we transcend our own histories of restraint,

coercion, and disconnectivity? Do we tell the stories and explain

how we are intentionally doing things differently? >>

YES!
To tell them you're making conscious choices because you want their lives to
be better seems to me the best way to make your grandchildren's lives and
great-grandchildren's lives better.

-=-Do we ignore the past and build the future upon our consciously-chosen
ideals? -=-

If you live in the moment with your consciously-chosen ideals that might help
you decide how to deal with your dad.

Will taking care of him add to the tranquility and learning of your family?
Will it make you yourself feel better?

If so, it's good for the moment (and all the moments coming up in the next
few years).

Your son thinks it will be good for him. Might it? Might.

My paternal grandmother told me after I was grown that she knew I had always
liked my Papaw (her husband, who died when I was 11 or 12) but that he really
wasn't so nice a guy. I told her he was always nice to me, and though I was
sorry that he and she had their differences, that wasn't part of his
relationship with me.

He had been good to my dad, too, and his brothers, and they were the closest
relatives to me on either side.

But if your siblings know of the abuse and are still pressing you to help,
then that's another round of the same abuse. It would seem to me, if I were in
that situation, that they were saying, "Get over it."

If your son would be helped by your dad being near, that's a mark in the
"plus" column. But if you would be stressed, that could be more damage to your
son's 6th year, 7th year (however old he is) than the advantage of the visits
with grandpa. Can you think of it as a balance sheet somehow? If there are too
many minuses, tell your siblings no. If he damaged your life, you don't need
to work hard to let him (or the aftereffects of longago him) damage your
kids' lives, even indirectly by stirring it all up in you again.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/2/04 1:54:55 AM, LauraBourdo@... writes:

<< This is comforting. How old is Holly? I'm just not sure how much to

share with my son. >>

12

-=-Somehow, it feels disloyal to talk about the old

man, but then I realize that keeping these family secrets does

nothing but protect the perpetrator. We need to know our family

stories. The secrets need to be told, don't they?-=-

I was 32, I think, before my mom told me she had been raped by her brother,
who then died of scarlet fever within another year or so. I didn't know him,
of course, but it did explain a lot of my moms seemingly aberrant behavior
during the time I was the age she had been. She had a strict rule that we not
play in the barn with David, our next-door neighbor. It really made no sense
to me. Meanwhile the thing she wasn't afraid of and hadn't thought of WAS
happening, my younger cousin was sexually molesting my younger sister. Both
female, so my mom had no fears. :-/

-=- If I have been consistent in my love for them, or as

consistent as I can be...have loved them as unconditionally as I

can...have respected and honored them as human beings in their own

rights (in other words, gifted them in ways I was never gifted by my

own father), they will know me for who I am, and will accept my

actions at their face value. Is that about the gist of it? -=-

That's what I'm counting on.

-=-Despite your mother's history with

you, you still felt it necessary to honor her with your love and

attention at the end of her life. -=-

It wasn't love.
My feelings were not warm or compassionate.
They were duty only.
I did try to make her comfortable, but when I put food and a water bottle on
the bed near her and she flung them off onto the floor, I didn't think, "OH,
poor thing," I thought, "Fine, then. You'll get thirsty."

I didn't think it in a hateful,angry way. Just matter of fact. A lot of the
emotion was gone from me regarding her by then.

-=- The question: Would you have been

able to commit to that sort of care over a MUCH longer period of

time, or would you have had to create more distance to protect

yourself?-=-

I would've stuck her with my sister in a heartbeat were it going to be
longterm.
Most of our lives I've helped my mom out, but my sister was her favorite, and
my sister has more often aided and abetted my mom to drink and be
irresponsible.

=Second question: What, exactly, do you mean when you say, "for

Holly's sake?"-=-

My mom had always been nice to Holly, and Holly was interested in helping me
help her. So it was something Holly and I did together.

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

<<<He is looking at an extended care situation in CA, and my brother and
sister are seriously pressing to bring him back here to Houston -- to
live with my brother and his wife near me, where I would be expected
to contribute to his care on a daily basis, as I "don't work" --
until he is either able to live again independently or (more likely)
dies. It could be years.>>>

From what I understand from both friends with elderly relatives, and the
experiences of my mother (Galveston resident) in the past couple of years,
any kind of extended care in California is extremely expensive. Maybe they
are factoring in thoughts about money, and are evidently in denial about the
abuse that filled your and your siblings' childhoods. Are your sibs in CA?
Maybe they are trying to remove the problem (of the pressure of maintaining
denial) with distance.

If he went to Texas, depending on his insurance, there may be enough to pay
for live-in care of some type that would be impossibly pricey in California.
You might look into some of the options available through the University of
Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, the hospital that my stepfather helps
run. It would be near enough if emergency medical decisions needed to be
made, and if you chose to try and find peace (for yourself) in a certain
level of relationship, but still far enough that an "everyday" care-by-you
situation would be impractical.

My own feeling, and this is an issue that it is all too likely I will have
to deal with in due course, is that having someone in your family unit that
will cause pain and anguish to you and take time away from your children, is
something to be considered very carefully. It is one thing to share the load
amongst a bunch of siblings, quite another that it be assumed that not
working out of the home means your time is free to be appropriated to
others' uses. I hope you are able to find a solution that does not leave you
feeling you have a kharmic debt, IYKWIM.

It is sad how the end-of-life needs of family members can be such a source
of stress and conflict. My husband's stepmother, Paula, died a few days ago
after a 15 month battle with lung/brain/bone cancer - which she kept SECRET
from all of her late husband's family and associates (my FIL). We only
discovered her illness in the last 6 weeks, and dh initiated contact - but
that is another story.

Paula's father had died about 3 years ago, also of cancer, after an
unpleasantly stressful and acrimonious battle between siblings about his
last wishes - basically her sisters tried to set aside his DNR. Now one of
these same sisters has apparently accused Paula's last caregivers and her
closest friend, and executor of her will, of murdering her. That means that
most likely there will be an autopsy performed and an investigation - an
absolute disruption of the lengthy written arrangements that Paula had left.
Luckily there are comprehensive doctor's records, medical personnel were
performing all tasks such as removing her IV feeding tube when she had
become comatose, and her wishes in terms of DNR were clearly stated in
writing. She died in her own home set up as a hospice - she had the money to
support that option.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Have a Nice Day!

<< If we are to model for our children lives built on love and

loyalty, how do we transcend our own histories of restraint,

coercion, and disconnectivity? Do we tell the stories and explain

how we are intentionally doing things differently? >>

YES!
To tell them you're making conscious choices because you want their lives to
be better seems to me the best way to make your grandchildren's lives and
great-grandchildren's lives better.

******************************

My kids had no real knowledge of how I grew up and their experience with their grandma is much different than mine was with her. She's a changed woman and is one of my best friends now.

How do I explain to my kids that what I am doing is different without dredging up a past that my mom and I have both left behind?

Maybe I can put it in general terms?

Kristen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/2/04 7:57:15 AM, dezigna@... writes:

<< If he went to Texas, depending on his insurance, there may be enough to pay
for live-in care of some type that would be impossibly pricey in California.
>>

Maybe tell your California relatives to either put him in a home there or in
Texas, and it will seem like a good deal for them to pay for residential care,
only near you. Then your son could visit.

Sandra

Holly Furgason

This sounds so much like what I went through when my mom died last
fall except she was too far away for me to help her at all. I never
visited her even when the time was close because she too kept lying
and manipulating us even on her death bed. I didn't attend the
funeral because my siblings are more than happy to carry on her
legacy.

What I felt when she died was a feeling a relief and a sadness for
her wasted life. I felt guilty for awhile but came to the
realization that her decisions and actions led to our separation and
that my responsibility lies with my children. Allowing myself to be
subject to my families emotional games would have made it hard for to
take care of them and have the kind of familial relationships they
deserve.

Sandra, it's so true that our children's feelings for us come from
the relationship that we've built with them by how we've treated
them. I can see it now and don't have to wait until my death.

Laura, you're a good daughter because you're a good person and a
great parent. I think that that's the most important thing we can
give our parents- even if they don't realize it.

Holly

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> << There may be the requisite sense of "love," but it is a shallow
> thing, rooted in a sense of familial responsibility, not in a deep
sense of
> the desire for interconnectivity. >>
>
> My mom died last fall. She was verbally abusive and dishonest to
the end
> (sprinkled with momentary attempts to express gratitude or
tenderness). All the
> kids saw her twice before she died, and Holly and I saw her several
times,
> going nearly every day to take care of her at her apartment,
deliver/pick up
> laundry, do her dishes, change her bed, etc.
>
> << It is how I act here that my children take clues as to how to
act with me
> when my time comes, down the road, is it not?>>
>
> My kids know many stories of how my mom was with me, and they have
their own
> experiences with her, too. If their feelings about me are as
mixed as mine
> were about my mom, that will be about the way I treated them, not
about the
> way I treated my mom.

Elizabeth Hill

** He is looking at an extended care situation in CA, and my brother and
sister are seriously pressing to bring him back here to Houston -- to
live with my brother and his wife near me, where I would be expected
to contribute to his care on a daily basis, as I "don't work" --
until he is either able to live again independently or (more likely)
dies. It could be years. He is not in life-threatening
circumstances now, but he has nowhere else to go during long-term
rehab than a nursing home in CA, and my brother and sister cannot,
apparently, live with that option.**

I think it's worthwhile to be as open as you can stand to be with your
extended family right now. Tell them that you WON'T rally around and
share the workload. (Don't let them make assumptions that they will
find disappointing and hard to live with later.) You may be doing them
a favor if you can talk them out of taking direct care of your dad.
Encourage them to look at rehab facilities (locally, at least) so that
the decision that they make is realistic, not based on exaggerated fears.

** How do you explain to a young person (ds has just turned 16 and is
very sensitive) that you feel no loyalty to a person who SHOULD have
loved you (and who did love you in his own limited way, honestly),
but largely terrorized and abused you instead? **

If you don't want to go into the details, you could tell your kids that
it is more important to you to put your time and energy into caring for
them, than into caring for your dad. You could also just say vaguely
that dealing with your father upsets you and takes you days (or weeks or
whatever) to recover from. Kids younger than teens I would probably
protect from having a relationship with your dad. But a kid old enough
to drive can visit his grandpa at your brother's house and just leave at
any time if the visit becomes unpleasant. That's much more power than a
younger kid has.

** And to keep this in the general realm of our discussion on democracy
in the family -- I really didn't mean this to become an analysis of
my family problems...I'm sorry -- this is still the overriding
question: If we are to model for our children lives built on love and
loyalty, how do we transcend our own histories of restraint,
coercion, and disconnectivity?**

I'm struggling with this, too. My dad's not a bad person, but there are
some issues with abandonment and with unpleasantness associated with
drinking. Six years I was invited to inconvenience myself a lot to show
up and honor my dad and stepmother's 25th wedding anniversary (the same
weekend as my mother's birthday). I chose not to go and pretend that we
were an affectionate family. My dad, who had skipped out on many
parenting obligations after divorcing my mom, tried to convince me that
some events were "obligatory". I thought this was hypocritical and
wasn't persuaded. Bottom line is that I decided, for a few years, to
not treat him any better than I thought he had treated me. I wasn't, at
that time, to be able to be a much better person than he had been.
However, I did feel guilty about this, and I promised myself that I
would (over time) make a transition to treating him "better than he
deserved". He's over seventy now and I feel compelled to live up to my
secret promise to myself, to treat him better until he dies. (That just
means visiting more often and calling. I don't live close and I'm not
looking at providing physical care.) It's still hard work emotionally
for me to be forgiving. I did use Daily Affirmation type books designed
for adult children of alchoholics (last year). And I did grieve and
relive painful feelings and vent angry words to an empty room as part of
the process. (for weeks) If your issues are bigger than my pretty
little ones, you might want a counselor to help support you while going
through a process like this. (I bent my husband's ear a lot, and he was
great at always agreeing with me.) The best part of the books for me is
that they made it clear that forgiveness is not something that you can
accomplish just by snapping your fingers. That took some of the
pressure off.

**Somehow, it feels disloyal to talk about the old
man, but then I realize that keeping these family secrets does
nothing but protect the perpetrator. **

It's healing for me to be able to talk about stuff. The quote "the
truth shall set you free" is biblical, right? For me to let it go, I
have to talk through the issues and spit it all out through my mouth.
(Even little stuff, like people cutting me off in traffic. <g>)


**If I have been consistent in my love for them, or as
consistent as I can be...have loved them as unconditionally as I
can...have respected and honored them as human beings in their own
rights (in other words, gifted them in ways I was never gifted by my
own father), they will know me for who I am, and will accept my
actions at their face value. Is that about the gist of it? **

Tangent:
There's going to come an age when your kids will want to complain about
you. (Maybe just about something you did by accident.) It would be a
gift to them if you let go of the idea (implanted in your family of
origin) that it's not okay to complain or criticize. If you can get
comfortable with truthfully criticizing your own parents, and truthfully
praising them for whatever you can find that they did right, then maybe
it will be easier for you to hear minor critical comments from your own
kids. It's an attitude shift, but differences of opinion that might
have lead to screaming fights in our own childhoods can be handled
calmly, if we can learn to be truthful and gentle together about
difficult issues.

It's possible that your son will never criticize you, but some day you
will have a daughter-in-law! Sooooo, getting comfortable with
differences of opinion and criticism, being able to talk about that
stuff rather than feeling that it should be hidden, will certainly come
in handy.

**and will accept my
actions at their face value.**

I think we can understand each other better if we talk about the reasons
for our actions. I don't think we can assume that all our actions will
be correctly interpreted, especially if some of our motives or personal
history is deeply hidden.

Mary

From: "Have a Nice Day!" <litlrooh@...>

<<How do I explain to my kids that what I am doing is different without
dredging up a past that my mom and I have both left behind?>>


I'm not sure I understand why it's important to do so.

Mary B

Have a Nice Day!

I guess because my kids seem to think I'm just being permissive (compared with their friends' parents). I want them to understand that there is a deliberate philosophy behind this...its not just permissiveness.

I guess that doesn't really have anything to do with my mom though :o).

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Let's bring this down to the practical from the theoretical...(Was: a whole new way of interacting)


From: "Have a Nice Day!" <litlrooh@...>

<<How do I explain to my kids that what I am doing is different without
dredging up a past that my mom and I have both left behind?>>


I'm not sure I understand why it's important to do so.

Mary B




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