Punishment...
Ali Kat
This is one of the things I don't really understand. Is there any "punishment' in unschooling? What do you do with a child who is consistently contrary? Can you "tell" your child to do something and expect them to - i.e. "Feed the dog"? Is talking to your child ever not enough?
I don't know if it is because I have talked to my daughter, but I don't have many problems that I see others struggle with. My daughter has always responded well to discussing what's going on, what she's doing, why, how it affects others, etc... I've always believed in "discipline" which is defined simply as guiding or leading. (I know many use the term "discipline" to mean spanking, etc...)Yet... I have this lingering belief that "punishment" is not necessarily "bad". (punishment does not mean "spanking" only, but any type of correction like grounding, etc...)
I just don't know if I quite "get" the idea from an unschoolers perspective. I certainly don't know how to explain it to my satisfaction or in a way to explain to family/folks who are genuinely interested in "getting" unschooling.
and... if I can put in a late question... What do you do with a child who is insitent on being the center of attention? To the point that the child gets in your face if you are conversing with someone else. It does not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this child but as soon as you turn your attention away from this child, the child becomes immediately unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are at their wits ends. What suggestions can be given? Thank you.
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I don't know if it is because I have talked to my daughter, but I don't have many problems that I see others struggle with. My daughter has always responded well to discussing what's going on, what she's doing, why, how it affects others, etc... I've always believed in "discipline" which is defined simply as guiding or leading. (I know many use the term "discipline" to mean spanking, etc...)Yet... I have this lingering belief that "punishment" is not necessarily "bad". (punishment does not mean "spanking" only, but any type of correction like grounding, etc...)
I just don't know if I quite "get" the idea from an unschoolers perspective. I certainly don't know how to explain it to my satisfaction or in a way to explain to family/folks who are genuinely interested in "getting" unschooling.
and... if I can put in a late question... What do you do with a child who is insitent on being the center of attention? To the point that the child gets in your face if you are conversing with someone else. It does not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this child but as soon as you turn your attention away from this child, the child becomes immediately unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are at their wits ends. What suggestions can be given? Thank you.
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Sylvia Toyama
This is one of the things I don't really understand. Is there any "punishment' in unschooling? I don't know if it is because I have talked to my daughter, but I don't have many problems that I see others struggle with. My daughter has always responded well to discussing what's going on, what she's doing, why, how it affects others, etc... Yet... I have this lingering belief that "punishment" is not necessarily "bad". (punishment does not mean "spanking" only, but any type of correction like grounding, etc...)
******
Maybe that lingering belief is just the voice of your childhood in your head? You've seen that you don't need to punish your own daughter, so clearly you know it's not necessary to raise kind, happy child.
*****
and... if I can put in a late question... What do you do with a child who is insitent on being the center of attention? To the point that the child gets in your face if you are conversing with someone else. It does not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this child but as soon as you turn your attention away from this child, the child becomes immediately unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are at their wits ends. What suggestions can be given?
******
I would guess there's still some unmet need with that child. Sure, the parents may be spending time in the same room with the child, but are they figuring out what his true needs for relationship are and how to meet them? Is that time spent with the child, just time sharing space or time exploring the things that bring that child joy?
The child must be getting some reward for his behavior or he wouldn't continue doing it. I'd really try to find some way to give that child attention -- not just time -- that is his alone, in a consistent way always keeping the promise to be really with that child.
In thinking about the idea that people are very happy to AP their infants and toddlers, but then drift away from it with older kids, it occurs to me that we recognize regression in a toddler or young child, as a sign that the child has an unmet need. We then act accordingly, but we tend not to be as adept at seeing the same regression and clinginess in an older child -- we brand it rudeness or impatience, and don't honor their neediness. I find I'm guilty of it, too, with our 8yo -- he's always been very high needs, and sometimes I find myself thinking he should have outgrown this by now. Then I remember it's a signal to me that he has an unmet need, not just a want but a real need he can't communicate to me in any other way. That helps me to see he's really desperate and I can't ignore his desperation.
Okay, so I've rambled some -- I'm on day two of serious neediness here -- but I'd really try to see what the child's unmet need is. Gotta go, Andy needs someone to help him settle down to sleep -- he (and I) were awake until 3 am last night. He was very keyed up a harrowing day yesterday and just still hasn't re-ordered himself. I'm beginning to fantasize about putting valium in his cocoa....
Syl
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******
Maybe that lingering belief is just the voice of your childhood in your head? You've seen that you don't need to punish your own daughter, so clearly you know it's not necessary to raise kind, happy child.
*****
and... if I can put in a late question... What do you do with a child who is insitent on being the center of attention? To the point that the child gets in your face if you are conversing with someone else. It does not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this child but as soon as you turn your attention away from this child, the child becomes immediately unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are at their wits ends. What suggestions can be given?
******
I would guess there's still some unmet need with that child. Sure, the parents may be spending time in the same room with the child, but are they figuring out what his true needs for relationship are and how to meet them? Is that time spent with the child, just time sharing space or time exploring the things that bring that child joy?
The child must be getting some reward for his behavior or he wouldn't continue doing it. I'd really try to find some way to give that child attention -- not just time -- that is his alone, in a consistent way always keeping the promise to be really with that child.
In thinking about the idea that people are very happy to AP their infants and toddlers, but then drift away from it with older kids, it occurs to me that we recognize regression in a toddler or young child, as a sign that the child has an unmet need. We then act accordingly, but we tend not to be as adept at seeing the same regression and clinginess in an older child -- we brand it rudeness or impatience, and don't honor their neediness. I find I'm guilty of it, too, with our 8yo -- he's always been very high needs, and sometimes I find myself thinking he should have outgrown this by now. Then I remember it's a signal to me that he has an unmet need, not just a want but a real need he can't communicate to me in any other way. That helps me to see he's really desperate and I can't ignore his desperation.
Okay, so I've rambled some -- I'm on day two of serious neediness here -- but I'd really try to see what the child's unmet need is. Gotta go, Andy needs someone to help him settle down to sleep -- he (and I) were awake until 3 am last night. He was very keyed up a harrowing day yesterday and just still hasn't re-ordered himself. I'm beginning to fantasize about putting valium in his cocoa....
Syl
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Fetteroll
on 7/31/04 10:41 PM, Ali Kat at sweetgypsiedncer@... wrote:
But some people start questioning their parenting practices once they "get"
unschooling. So extending the philosophy into parenting gets discussed.
If that's not something you want to do, then the discussion won't make any
sense to you. It will seem like a lot of energy put into situations that can
easily be solved with an order (and punishment if necessary).
then there isn't a reason to be contrary.
him to do it?
talking about in order to talk about it! We need to be using words in the
same way in order to understand what each is saying.
If I say I guide my daughter, that may call up a different image to you --
since you followed "guiding" with leading as one might a dog on a leash --
and you'll miss the point of what I'm saying.
I offere guidance but I'm not trying to lead my daughter somewhere. I do
trust that she wants to live peacefully with others and, when she isn't, I
understand that it's because she doesn't have the skills and understanding
to figure out how to get what she wants without stepping on others.
But your example was about chores. To understand how to put the unschooling
philosophy into practice in parenting, you need to see chores in a new way.
Accept ownership of the home. It's all yours as are the messes your child
creates since her messes are part of the decision to have a child. (Just as
litter boxes are part of the decision to have an indoor cat!)
But it doesn't stop there! Ask for help. Ask as you would a friend and
accept that the answer can be no since you are asking someone to set aside
something that may be more important to them (even if it doesn't look
important to you) to do something that may be uninteresting to them for you.
And then appreciate the help they give, even if you think they could have
done more.
Turn the situation around: If you had a friend who asked you to help -- but
wasn't really "asking" since she wouldn't treat no kindly -- and then
grumped at you because you weren't helping the way she wanted and then said
"Thanks," when you were done but really meant "It was the least you could
do," would you want to help that friend?
But if your friend asked saying she understood you were busy but she was
really in a bind and could you help her out? And she appreciated whatever
you could do and thanked you sincerely at the end and offered lunch or to
take the kids for an afternoon (depending on how much she was asking) would
you want to help her again?
So the question really isn't can you say "Feed the dog." The question is is
that treatment of another part of the type of relationship you want to build
with your child? I wouldnt' want my husband to treat me that way, so I
certainly wouldn't want to treat another person -- and kids are persons too!
-- that way.
punishment is one tool many people use.
If your goal is a more joyful family life and great relationships, then
there are better tools.
One of the reasons orders and punishment seem to work is that it makes
sense. The most direct path to getting what you want is to tell someone and
have them do it. Another reason is that it *looks* like it works. Compliant
kids will do what they're told because fighting for what they want isn't
worth it to them. That's conveninent for parents! But not a good character
quality for a child when she's with people who are less trustworthy than her
parents (a boyfriend? a pushy friend? an adult who seemed nice on the
surface?) and definitely not a useful character quality as an adult. Defiant
kids may also comply. But then they'll do what they want when parents aren't
looking. (We can't really control what they do. But we can create the
illusion that we can control them!)
Punishment can raise great kids. It can also raise kids who want out of the
home as soon as possible and kids who are destructive and disrespectful. The
success of punishment based parenting depends on the child's personality and
the other ways the parent is relating to the child.
Parenting based on respect doesn't depend on the child's personality and it
is the whole of how a parent relates to the child.
So really it isn't the punishment that works. It's other factors outside the
punishment (the rest of the relationship and the personality.)
My daughter is a sweetie and she's not punished. If decent kids can be
raised without punishment, then why chance punishment?
What quality of time is spent with the child? Parents can be with a child
without really *being* with a child if you know what I mean. They can spend
the time with a child in a way that they think is what the child needs, but
aren't really listening to what the child says (in various ways) that he
needs.
If the child says he needs attention, that's an honest message of what he's
feeling. The feelings aren't wrong and can't (or shouldn't be) changed. But
he can be helped to learn to set aside his needs for a bit so others can get
their needs met. My daughter understood when I said it was my turn to talk.
But to understand allowing others their turn, she needs her turn to be given
just as much respect. A needy 5 yo being asked to be away from mom for an
hour isn't a reasonable expectation of his skills.
Conventional parenting focuses on behavior and ways to modify it. Peaceful
(or mindful or respectful or relationship or unschooling or whatever one
wants to call it) parenting focuses on building relationships, trusting that
kids are doing the best they can with their skills and understanding of the
world. So problems aren't solved by finding ways to stop a behavior.
Problems are solved by tending to what's causing the behavior. What's
happening isn't as important as why. Behavior is an expression of needs. The
needs don't go away because the behavior goes away. The needs often get
expressed in other ways or turned inward.
Joyce
> Is there any "punishment' in unschooling?Unschooling is just about not doing school.
But some people start questioning their parenting practices once they "get"
unschooling. So extending the philosophy into parenting gets discussed.
If that's not something you want to do, then the discussion won't make any
sense to you. It will seem like a lot of energy put into situations that can
easily be solved with an order (and punishment if necessary).
> What do you do with a child who is consistently contrary?If you don't relate in a way where there are things to be contrary about,
then there isn't a reason to be contrary.
> Can you "tell" your child to do something and expect them to - i.e.Can you tell your husband to go do the week's shopping every week and expect
> "Feed the dog"?
him to do it?
> Is talking to your child ever not enough?Would talking to him about it ever not be enough?
> I've always believed in "discipline" which is defined simply as guiding orRegardless of how one defines words, we all need to understand what we're
> leading. (I know many use the term "discipline" to mean spanking,
> etc...)
talking about in order to talk about it! We need to be using words in the
same way in order to understand what each is saying.
If I say I guide my daughter, that may call up a different image to you --
since you followed "guiding" with leading as one might a dog on a leash --
and you'll miss the point of what I'm saying.
I offere guidance but I'm not trying to lead my daughter somewhere. I do
trust that she wants to live peacefully with others and, when she isn't, I
understand that it's because she doesn't have the skills and understanding
to figure out how to get what she wants without stepping on others.
But your example was about chores. To understand how to put the unschooling
philosophy into practice in parenting, you need to see chores in a new way.
Accept ownership of the home. It's all yours as are the messes your child
creates since her messes are part of the decision to have a child. (Just as
litter boxes are part of the decision to have an indoor cat!)
But it doesn't stop there! Ask for help. Ask as you would a friend and
accept that the answer can be no since you are asking someone to set aside
something that may be more important to them (even if it doesn't look
important to you) to do something that may be uninteresting to them for you.
And then appreciate the help they give, even if you think they could have
done more.
Turn the situation around: If you had a friend who asked you to help -- but
wasn't really "asking" since she wouldn't treat no kindly -- and then
grumped at you because you weren't helping the way she wanted and then said
"Thanks," when you were done but really meant "It was the least you could
do," would you want to help that friend?
But if your friend asked saying she understood you were busy but she was
really in a bind and could you help her out? And she appreciated whatever
you could do and thanked you sincerely at the end and offered lunch or to
take the kids for an afternoon (depending on how much she was asking) would
you want to help her again?
So the question really isn't can you say "Feed the dog." The question is is
that treatment of another part of the type of relationship you want to build
with your child? I wouldnt' want my husband to treat me that way, so I
certainly wouldn't want to treat another person -- and kids are persons too!
-- that way.
> Yet... I have this lingering belief that "punishment" is notIf your goal is to make your daughter conform to a certain behavior then
> necessarily "bad". (punishment does not mean "spanking" only, but any type of
> correction like grounding, etc...)
punishment is one tool many people use.
If your goal is a more joyful family life and great relationships, then
there are better tools.
One of the reasons orders and punishment seem to work is that it makes
sense. The most direct path to getting what you want is to tell someone and
have them do it. Another reason is that it *looks* like it works. Compliant
kids will do what they're told because fighting for what they want isn't
worth it to them. That's conveninent for parents! But not a good character
quality for a child when she's with people who are less trustworthy than her
parents (a boyfriend? a pushy friend? an adult who seemed nice on the
surface?) and definitely not a useful character quality as an adult. Defiant
kids may also comply. But then they'll do what they want when parents aren't
looking. (We can't really control what they do. But we can create the
illusion that we can control them!)
Punishment can raise great kids. It can also raise kids who want out of the
home as soon as possible and kids who are destructive and disrespectful. The
success of punishment based parenting depends on the child's personality and
the other ways the parent is relating to the child.
Parenting based on respect doesn't depend on the child's personality and it
is the whole of how a parent relates to the child.
So really it isn't the punishment that works. It's other factors outside the
punishment (the rest of the relationship and the personality.)
My daughter is a sweetie and she's not punished. If decent kids can be
raised without punishment, then why chance punishment?
> It does not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this child but asHow old?
> soon as you turn your attention away from this child, the child becomes
> immediately unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are at
> their wits ends. What suggestions can be given?
What quality of time is spent with the child? Parents can be with a child
without really *being* with a child if you know what I mean. They can spend
the time with a child in a way that they think is what the child needs, but
aren't really listening to what the child says (in various ways) that he
needs.
If the child says he needs attention, that's an honest message of what he's
feeling. The feelings aren't wrong and can't (or shouldn't be) changed. But
he can be helped to learn to set aside his needs for a bit so others can get
their needs met. My daughter understood when I said it was my turn to talk.
But to understand allowing others their turn, she needs her turn to be given
just as much respect. A needy 5 yo being asked to be away from mom for an
hour isn't a reasonable expectation of his skills.
Conventional parenting focuses on behavior and ways to modify it. Peaceful
(or mindful or respectful or relationship or unschooling or whatever one
wants to call it) parenting focuses on building relationships, trusting that
kids are doing the best they can with their skills and understanding of the
world. So problems aren't solved by finding ways to stop a behavior.
Problems are solved by tending to what's causing the behavior. What's
happening isn't as important as why. Behavior is an expression of needs. The
needs don't go away because the behavior goes away. The needs often get
expressed in other ways or turned inward.
Joyce
Dawn Adams
This is one of the things I don't really understand. Is there any "punishment' in unschooling?
What do you do with a child who is consistently contrary?
Can you "tell" your child to do something and expect them to - i.e. "Feed the dog"?
and... if I can put in a late question... What do you do with a child who is insitent on being the center of attention? To the point that the child gets in your face if you are conversing with someone else. It does not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this child but as soon as you turn your attention away from this child, the child becomes immediately unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are at their wits ends. What suggestions can be given? Thank you.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>There's not supposed to be in my unschooling or parenting style but I do slip often enough. :) we're getting there though.
What do you do with a child who is consistently contrary?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Look at how you're dealing with the child. Are you demanding? Full of orders? Does the child ever have a choice and the freedom to refuse?
Can you "tell" your child to do something and expect them to - i.e. "Feed the dog"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've finally gotten to the point where I ask and if the answer is no, I assume she's in the middle of something and go do it.
and... if I can put in a late question... What do you do with a child who is insitent on being the center of attention? To the point that the child gets in your face if you are conversing with someone else. It does not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this child but as soon as you turn your attention away from this child, the child becomes immediately unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are at their wits ends. What suggestions can be given? Thank you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>My daughter gets like this at times. It's because I've not spent enough time with her. My mom saw this behaviour and I told her I thought it was because I wasn't spending time with her and she said something along the lines of, 'Bull, you're around her all the time!' Well yeah but I'm around her doing housework, chasing the toddler, checking email, whatever. When I sit down and give her my undivided attention and read to her for an hour or put together a puzzle or snuggle up for a movie the neediness goes away. Another thought, what about just including the child in the conversation? If the daughter's behaviour is rude what about the parents who may be trying to exclude her from the conversation they're having with someone else.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< Is there any "punishment' in unschooling? >>
Unschooling is about how learning happens.
Questions that suggest there are rules about what can and can't be done "in
unschooling" are indicators (to me) that the questioner is not thinking much
about principles vs. rules.
Here's the start of a collection:
http://sandradodd.com/rules
And more ideas here:
http://sandradodd.com/life
-=-Yet... I have this lingering belief that "punishment" is not necessarily
"bad". (punishment does not mean "spanking" only, but any type of correction
like grounding, etc...)-=-
What is being learned? That's the question to ponder in any area in which
you're wanting to extend unschooling into the corners of your life.
Some people don't want to extend unschooling, and that's okay for them I
guess. I don't think they'll have as good an experience as they could, but that
won't keep it from being unschooling. It will keep them from moving away from
rules and toward principles, but that's not going to keep them from
unschooling. A family with all their kids in school could live by principles and not
rules.
Sandra
Unschooling is about how learning happens.
Questions that suggest there are rules about what can and can't be done "in
unschooling" are indicators (to me) that the questioner is not thinking much
about principles vs. rules.
Here's the start of a collection:
http://sandradodd.com/rules
And more ideas here:
http://sandradodd.com/life
-=-Yet... I have this lingering belief that "punishment" is not necessarily
"bad". (punishment does not mean "spanking" only, but any type of correction
like grounding, etc...)-=-
What is being learned? That's the question to ponder in any area in which
you're wanting to extend unschooling into the corners of your life.
Some people don't want to extend unschooling, and that's okay for them I
guess. I don't think they'll have as good an experience as they could, but that
won't keep it from being unschooling. It will keep them from moving away from
rules and toward principles, but that's not going to keep them from
unschooling. A family with all their kids in school could live by principles and not
rules.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/31/04 11:48:04 PM, sylgt04@... writes:
<< The child must be getting some reward for his behavior or he wouldn't
continue doing it. >>
Syl wrote that in response to:
-=-What do you do with a child who is insitent on being the center of
attention? To the point that the child gets in your face if you are conversing with
someone else. It does not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this
child but as soon as you turn your attention away from this child, the child
becomes immediately unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are
at their wits ends. What suggestions can be given? -=-
With older kids who steal the stage from other older kids, if it's my kids I
say "Don't hog the air" and "Let other kids get a chance to shine."
With little kids jumping in the mom's face, I would make deals with them in
advance, or hold them in my lap and touch them in ways that feel communicative
while I'm talking to the adults, so that I'm doing two things at once, the
child is getting lots of attention (though not verbal and not direct gaze).
If it's a hyper kid too big to hold, I would just stop trying to have long
conversations with other people unless I had arranged for someone else to be
paying tons of attention to that child.
I used to hire a young-teen neighbor for $3 an hour to come and be a mother's
helper. All she did was play with them, get them drinks, help them get
things off shelves, and run interference. It wasn't babysitting, because I was
there.
Sandra
<< The child must be getting some reward for his behavior or he wouldn't
continue doing it. >>
Syl wrote that in response to:
-=-What do you do with a child who is insitent on being the center of
attention? To the point that the child gets in your face if you are conversing with
someone else. It does not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this
child but as soon as you turn your attention away from this child, the child
becomes immediately unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are
at their wits ends. What suggestions can be given? -=-
With older kids who steal the stage from other older kids, if it's my kids I
say "Don't hog the air" and "Let other kids get a chance to shine."
With little kids jumping in the mom's face, I would make deals with them in
advance, or hold them in my lap and touch them in ways that feel communicative
while I'm talking to the adults, so that I'm doing two things at once, the
child is getting lots of attention (though not verbal and not direct gaze).
If it's a hyper kid too big to hold, I would just stop trying to have long
conversations with other people unless I had arranged for someone else to be
paying tons of attention to that child.
I used to hire a young-teen neighbor for $3 an hour to come and be a mother's
helper. All she did was play with them, get them drinks, help them get
things off shelves, and run interference. It wasn't babysitting, because I was
there.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/1/04 4:49:24 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< If you don't relate in a way where there are things to be contrary about,
then there isn't a reason to be contrary.
We don't have a bunch of rules. We have some expectations and
practicalities, like if someone takes the trash out they should replace the bag. If they
use the last of the milk, they should get another gallon from the back fridge
(where we store quantities/extras of things). But the way it works out is that
very often when one person sees another voluntarily taking out the trash, he
or she will get a bag and replace it kind of out of gratitude that the trash is
being taken out. And with milk, if there are several people around when the
milk's about to empty out, one will say "I'll go get milk," and regular
guest-kids know where it is, too.
There's no "contrary" involved.
Kirby's deal with us has been for years that we should know where he is, so
he will call or e-mail if he's going to be out all night. He calls if he's
changing locations. If he forgets (a time or two he has, but just forgetting,
not being sneaky or anything) that's not a big deal.
We've never wanted to "ground" any kids. Much of their learning takes place
out and about. And we've never wanted to make their rooms a place to avoid or
resent. And we don't want them to think staying home with the family is what
happens when you're bad. And because we've been so supportive of and positive
with them there's rarely anything they do that anyone would consider "bad"
anyway.
-=-> Can you "tell" your child to do something and expect them to - i.e.
expect
him to do it?-=-
We have two grocery lists building at any moment, one for Costco (Keith's
shopping) and one for regulary grocery store (mine). When one hits critical
mass or we're out of something, someone goes shopping. I might ask him if he
could go soon, and he's glad to do that. Or if I need something quickly and it's
not a good day for him to go, I'll just go get it at the grocery store.
Same with the kids. I ask them if it's a good time, or possible for them to
do something, if it's something I can't do and they can, or if I need help.
Marty and Kirby are both taller than I am so I ask them to put things up on
high shelves and to change light bulbs. They've always been quite happy to do
it, but I have never *ever* commanded them to do it. So they feel big, and
good, and helpful, and adult when they do it, not small and helpless and
put-upon.
It ends up turning out that what we're talking about in all these cases isn't
nearly so much "who does what" as "who feels how"?
-=-One of the reasons orders and punishment seem to work is that it makes
sense. The most direct path to getting what you want is to tell someone and
have them do it. Another reason is that it *looks* like it works. -=-
That whole passage of Joyce's was wonderful.
Parenting practices are largely left over from the days when psychology
either didn't exist or was regarded with great suspicion. The feelings of the
individuals being compelled to perform the behaviors (in animal training terms)
were NOT foremost in many people's minds. And as many of our culture's roots
go to England and Germany, especially as regards education and childrearing,
people were expected to stuff their own feelings and "get over it" (whatever
their phrase of the day was). Subdue your appetites, overcome your emotions,
and get that trash out, the floor mopped, the dog fed, the sidewalk scrubbed.
Priorities.
If a family's priorities do not include their child's feelings of wellbeing
and safety, then punishments are reasonable things to have. If the house
outranks the children, then yes, what the heck? Ground them in their rooms. As
long as they do no damage to the structure, who cares? They'll move out soon
and you'll have your house back.
But if the children are a priority, many things will easily change.
Sandra
<< If you don't relate in a way where there are things to be contrary about,
then there isn't a reason to be contrary.
>>That's the crucial point.
We don't have a bunch of rules. We have some expectations and
practicalities, like if someone takes the trash out they should replace the bag. If they
use the last of the milk, they should get another gallon from the back fridge
(where we store quantities/extras of things). But the way it works out is that
very often when one person sees another voluntarily taking out the trash, he
or she will get a bag and replace it kind of out of gratitude that the trash is
being taken out. And with milk, if there are several people around when the
milk's about to empty out, one will say "I'll go get milk," and regular
guest-kids know where it is, too.
There's no "contrary" involved.
Kirby's deal with us has been for years that we should know where he is, so
he will call or e-mail if he's going to be out all night. He calls if he's
changing locations. If he forgets (a time or two he has, but just forgetting,
not being sneaky or anything) that's not a big deal.
We've never wanted to "ground" any kids. Much of their learning takes place
out and about. And we've never wanted to make their rooms a place to avoid or
resent. And we don't want them to think staying home with the family is what
happens when you're bad. And because we've been so supportive of and positive
with them there's rarely anything they do that anyone would consider "bad"
anyway.
-=-> Can you "tell" your child to do something and expect them to - i.e.
> "Feed the dog"?-=-Can you tell your husband to go do the week's shopping every week and
expect
him to do it?-=-
We have two grocery lists building at any moment, one for Costco (Keith's
shopping) and one for regulary grocery store (mine). When one hits critical
mass or we're out of something, someone goes shopping. I might ask him if he
could go soon, and he's glad to do that. Or if I need something quickly and it's
not a good day for him to go, I'll just go get it at the grocery store.
Same with the kids. I ask them if it's a good time, or possible for them to
do something, if it's something I can't do and they can, or if I need help.
Marty and Kirby are both taller than I am so I ask them to put things up on
high shelves and to change light bulbs. They've always been quite happy to do
it, but I have never *ever* commanded them to do it. So they feel big, and
good, and helpful, and adult when they do it, not small and helpless and
put-upon.
It ends up turning out that what we're talking about in all these cases isn't
nearly so much "who does what" as "who feels how"?
-=-One of the reasons orders and punishment seem to work is that it makes
sense. The most direct path to getting what you want is to tell someone and
have them do it. Another reason is that it *looks* like it works. -=-
That whole passage of Joyce's was wonderful.
Parenting practices are largely left over from the days when psychology
either didn't exist or was regarded with great suspicion. The feelings of the
individuals being compelled to perform the behaviors (in animal training terms)
were NOT foremost in many people's minds. And as many of our culture's roots
go to England and Germany, especially as regards education and childrearing,
people were expected to stuff their own feelings and "get over it" (whatever
their phrase of the day was). Subdue your appetites, overcome your emotions,
and get that trash out, the floor mopped, the dog fed, the sidewalk scrubbed.
Priorities.
If a family's priorities do not include their child's feelings of wellbeing
and safety, then punishments are reasonable things to have. If the house
outranks the children, then yes, what the heck? Ground them in their rooms. As
long as they do no damage to the structure, who cares? They'll move out soon
and you'll have your house back.
But if the children are a priority, many things will easily change.
Sandra
Elizabeth Roberts
As far as the first part, no there isn't any
punishment. Lots of disciplining by your definition,
of leading/guiding.
I have a child who is consistently contrary. I have
learned to gauge her moods closely and be careful how
I ask her to help out. We talk often about cooperation
and being a part of a community (in our case, living
in the family) and how everyone needs to help with
chores as well as the fun times. Giving her choices
also helps with her being more cooperative, as well as
just recognizing that she's alot like I am!
As for a child who is constantly getting rowdy if not
attended to constantly, is the child old enough to be
held on the lap of the person and hugged so that it's
a little easier to understand that they aren't being
ignored? If the child is easier, then I'm not quite
sure how to handle it because to be honest, we're
still working on not interrupting at times when
someone has asked that they not do so.
Not sure if that helps or not!
Elizabeth
--- Ali Kat <sweetgypsiedncer@...> wrote:
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punishment. Lots of disciplining by your definition,
of leading/guiding.
I have a child who is consistently contrary. I have
learned to gauge her moods closely and be careful how
I ask her to help out. We talk often about cooperation
and being a part of a community (in our case, living
in the family) and how everyone needs to help with
chores as well as the fun times. Giving her choices
also helps with her being more cooperative, as well as
just recognizing that she's alot like I am!
As for a child who is constantly getting rowdy if not
attended to constantly, is the child old enough to be
held on the lap of the person and hugged so that it's
a little easier to understand that they aren't being
ignored? If the child is easier, then I'm not quite
sure how to handle it because to be honest, we're
still working on not interrupting at times when
someone has asked that they not do so.
Not sure if that helps or not!
Elizabeth
--- Ali Kat <sweetgypsiedncer@...> wrote:
>__________________________________
> This is one of the things I don't really understand.
> Is there any "punishment' in unschooling? What do
> you do with a child who is consistently contrary?
> Can you "tell" your child to do something and expect
> them to - i.e. "Feed the dog"? Is talking to your
> child ever not enough?
>
> I don't know if it is because I have talked to my
> daughter, but I don't have many problems that I see
> others struggle with. My daughter has always
> responded well to discussing what's going on, what
> she's doing, why, how it affects others, etc...
> I've always believed in "discipline" which is
> defined simply as guiding or leading. (I know many
> use the term "discipline" to mean spanking,
> etc...)Yet... I have this lingering belief that
> "punishment" is not necessarily "bad". (punishment
> does not mean "spanking" only, but any type of
> correction like grounding, etc...)
>
> I just don't know if I quite "get" the idea from an
> unschoolers perspective. I certainly don't know how
> to explain it to my satisfaction or in a way to
> explain to family/folks who are genuinely interested
> in "getting" unschooling.
>
> and... if I can put in a late question... What do
> you do with a child who is insitent on being the
> center of attention? To the point that the child
> gets in your face if you are conversing with someone
> else. It does not seem to matter quantity of time
> you spend with this child but as soon as you turn
> your attention away from this child, the child
> becomes immediately unruly, loud and gets right in
> your face. The parents are at their wits ends.
> What suggestions can be given? Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
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Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<But the way it works out is that very often when one person sees another
voluntarily taking out the trash, he
or she will get a bag and replace it kind of out of gratitude that the trash
is being taken out.>>
My husband is in charge of the trash. And after 14 plus years, I still can't
get him to remember putting a new bag in when he's done. So most of the time
someone will throw something away without really looking and it ends up in
the bottom of a bagless container. So it took me long enough, but I finally
just took out all the trash bags from the box, dumped them in the bottom of
the trash can, and at least they are there and no one has to walk to where
the bags are kept. Of course my husband still forgets most times to get the
new one, but it's much more convenient for me. (sigh)
I've tried time outs, but they just don't work on him. <BEG>
Mary B
<<But the way it works out is that very often when one person sees another
voluntarily taking out the trash, he
or she will get a bag and replace it kind of out of gratitude that the trash
is being taken out.>>
My husband is in charge of the trash. And after 14 plus years, I still can't
get him to remember putting a new bag in when he's done. So most of the time
someone will throw something away without really looking and it ends up in
the bottom of a bagless container. So it took me long enough, but I finally
just took out all the trash bags from the box, dumped them in the bottom of
the trash can, and at least they are there and no one has to walk to where
the bags are kept. Of course my husband still forgets most times to get the
new one, but it's much more convenient for me. (sigh)
I've tried time outs, but they just don't work on him. <BEG>
Mary B
pam sorooshian
On Jul 31, 2004, at 7:41 PM, Ali Kat wrote:
teachers and they don't hold school in their homes. It means children
are viewed as wanting to become competent and informed and productive
members of their society in the presence of supportive family and an
environment that allows experimentation and experience.
Nothing in there about "punishment." There are unschooling families
with chore lists and accompanying rewards or punishments for doing or
not doing the chores. There are unschooling families who use what my
friend calls "cultural methods" of responding to undesirable behaviors
in their children. He means they spank, yell, isolate, shame, and take
away.
However, unschooling always involves trust in children - in fact,
trusting them to know, ultimately, what to learn, how to learn, when to
learn anything and everything. Parents offer information and
experiences. Parents offer guidance. Parents offer help. But
unschooling parents don't offer to think "for" their children. All this
trusting children to think and choose when, what, and how to learn, for
themselves, tends to be extended, over time, into all areas of life,
including things like chores and behavior, and is not limited to just
conventional school subject areas.
Unschoolers have adopted a belief that children naturally want to
become part of the full society, in their own way, of course.
Punishment tends to just fade from existence in the unschooling family
because parents get into the habit of being "helpers" and of trying to
understand what their kids' motivations are for what they are doing.
When parents understand motivation and are in the habit of looking for
ways to help - they eventually stop seeing punishment as useful.
Instead, their focus become trying to help the child clarify and
achieve his or her real goals. This is just turning the same attitude
and approach we have, as unschoolers, on "learning," onto other kinds
of learning (learning to be courteous, learning when to be quiet,
learning to clean up after oneself, learning to share, etc.)
In practice, if you observed a hundred unschooling families, you'd see
a wide variation in how parents and children interact. We have
different personalities and we have different capabilities and
different life situations. Some have chosen to "unschool" in the most
narrow sense of the word - these families see that children don't need
schoolwork in order to learn. Instead, they provide lots of
interesting experiences and they pay attention to what catches the
child's interest and they follow up on those experiences in ways that
they've observed are useful to the child. For example, they might go to
an arboretum as a family outing. They notice that their son really
likes the carnivorous plants. When they go through the arboretum shop -
there are some small carnivorous plants for sale - so they buy one to
take home. They parent looks up carnivorous plants on the internet and
shares some of what she learned, with her son. He asks, "Wow, how did
you find that out?" She shows him how to use Google. He thinks of other
things he could look up. Decides to look up "Robot" and finds a listing
for "I, Robot," by Isaac Asimov. He says, "I didn't know that was a
book - I just thought it was a movie." Next time they go to the
library, mom finds "I, Robot" and he reads it and loves it and wants to
read more of Isaac Asimov's books. Mom also finds a book about Isaac
Asimov. She doesn't think her son will want to read the whole book -
but she reads it and shares tidbits with him that she thinks are
interesting. And so on.... Sounds like an unschooler, right?
In the meantime, this could be a family with punishments for
misbehavior, with chore charts and bedtimes and 1 hour per day limits
on tv or video games and so on. But, over time, they're likely to
change that as they come to trust their children more and more.
I don't think these other parenting issues are "part and parcel" of
unschooling. But they tend to often be natural outgrowths of
unschooling. And examining them and analyzing what sense they make for
our own famlies, questioning our own parenting choices, can help us
create the kind of family life that is most conducive to unschooling.
-pam
"To parents I say, above all else, don't let your home become some
terrible miniature copy of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes!
No tests! No report cards! Even leaving your kids alone would be
better; at least they could figure out some things on their own. Live
together, as well as you can; enjoy life together, as much as you can."
John Holt in "Teach Your Own"
> I just don't know if I quite "get" the idea from an unschoolersUnschooling means "not schooling." Unschooling parents do not become
> perspective. I certainly don't know how to explain it to my
> satisfaction or in a way to explain to family/folks who are genuinely
> interested in "getting" unschooling.
teachers and they don't hold school in their homes. It means children
are viewed as wanting to become competent and informed and productive
members of their society in the presence of supportive family and an
environment that allows experimentation and experience.
Nothing in there about "punishment." There are unschooling families
with chore lists and accompanying rewards or punishments for doing or
not doing the chores. There are unschooling families who use what my
friend calls "cultural methods" of responding to undesirable behaviors
in their children. He means they spank, yell, isolate, shame, and take
away.
However, unschooling always involves trust in children - in fact,
trusting them to know, ultimately, what to learn, how to learn, when to
learn anything and everything. Parents offer information and
experiences. Parents offer guidance. Parents offer help. But
unschooling parents don't offer to think "for" their children. All this
trusting children to think and choose when, what, and how to learn, for
themselves, tends to be extended, over time, into all areas of life,
including things like chores and behavior, and is not limited to just
conventional school subject areas.
Unschoolers have adopted a belief that children naturally want to
become part of the full society, in their own way, of course.
Punishment tends to just fade from existence in the unschooling family
because parents get into the habit of being "helpers" and of trying to
understand what their kids' motivations are for what they are doing.
When parents understand motivation and are in the habit of looking for
ways to help - they eventually stop seeing punishment as useful.
Instead, their focus become trying to help the child clarify and
achieve his or her real goals. This is just turning the same attitude
and approach we have, as unschoolers, on "learning," onto other kinds
of learning (learning to be courteous, learning when to be quiet,
learning to clean up after oneself, learning to share, etc.)
In practice, if you observed a hundred unschooling families, you'd see
a wide variation in how parents and children interact. We have
different personalities and we have different capabilities and
different life situations. Some have chosen to "unschool" in the most
narrow sense of the word - these families see that children don't need
schoolwork in order to learn. Instead, they provide lots of
interesting experiences and they pay attention to what catches the
child's interest and they follow up on those experiences in ways that
they've observed are useful to the child. For example, they might go to
an arboretum as a family outing. They notice that their son really
likes the carnivorous plants. When they go through the arboretum shop -
there are some small carnivorous plants for sale - so they buy one to
take home. They parent looks up carnivorous plants on the internet and
shares some of what she learned, with her son. He asks, "Wow, how did
you find that out?" She shows him how to use Google. He thinks of other
things he could look up. Decides to look up "Robot" and finds a listing
for "I, Robot," by Isaac Asimov. He says, "I didn't know that was a
book - I just thought it was a movie." Next time they go to the
library, mom finds "I, Robot" and he reads it and loves it and wants to
read more of Isaac Asimov's books. Mom also finds a book about Isaac
Asimov. She doesn't think her son will want to read the whole book -
but she reads it and shares tidbits with him that she thinks are
interesting. And so on.... Sounds like an unschooler, right?
In the meantime, this could be a family with punishments for
misbehavior, with chore charts and bedtimes and 1 hour per day limits
on tv or video games and so on. But, over time, they're likely to
change that as they come to trust their children more and more.
I don't think these other parenting issues are "part and parcel" of
unschooling. But they tend to often be natural outgrowths of
unschooling. And examining them and analyzing what sense they make for
our own famlies, questioning our own parenting choices, can help us
create the kind of family life that is most conducive to unschooling.
-pam
"To parents I say, above all else, don't let your home become some
terrible miniature copy of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes!
No tests! No report cards! Even leaving your kids alone would be
better; at least they could figure out some things on their own. Live
together, as well as you can; enjoy life together, as much as you can."
John Holt in "Teach Your Own"
Robyn Coburn
<<<Can you "tell" your child to do something and expect them to - i.e. "Feed
the dog"? Is talking to your child ever not enough?>>>
I do not expect unthinking obedience from Jayn. It is not something I value,
and believe me I don't get it. ;) If something is important or about safety,
I say why I am asking her.
I'm going to throw out the idea that talking to your child is *never* enough
- that you have to model in your actions and interactions the kind of
qualities and principles you expect/hope your children will emulate.
<<<I just don't know if I quite "get" the idea from an unschoolers
perspective. I certainly don't know how to explain it to my satisfaction or
in a way to explain to family/folks who are genuinely interested in
"getting" unschooling.>>>
If you don't get it, it may be tough to explain to others, although
sometimes verbalizing is a path to clarity. Being pedantic for a moment,
there is not any single unschooler's perspective - but the accumulated
experience and wisdom of many. Sometimes unschooling is easier to grasp and
explain to family in terms of what it is *not*.
<<<<and... if I can put in a late question... What do you do with a child
who is insitent on being the center of attention? To the point that the
child gets in your face if you are conversing with someone else. It does
not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this child but as soon as
you turn your attention away from this child, the child becomes immediately
unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are at their wits
ends. What suggestions can be given? Thank you.>>>
You have had several helpful responses to this. To be honest I am always
reluctant to make suggestions to third parties like this. You say "the
parents" so it is not you, your child, with your personal and intimate
knowledge of the whole story. That makes it harder to help. Are they
unschoolers?
Robyn L. Coburn
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the dog"? Is talking to your child ever not enough?>>>
I do not expect unthinking obedience from Jayn. It is not something I value,
and believe me I don't get it. ;) If something is important or about safety,
I say why I am asking her.
I'm going to throw out the idea that talking to your child is *never* enough
- that you have to model in your actions and interactions the kind of
qualities and principles you expect/hope your children will emulate.
<<<I just don't know if I quite "get" the idea from an unschoolers
perspective. I certainly don't know how to explain it to my satisfaction or
in a way to explain to family/folks who are genuinely interested in
"getting" unschooling.>>>
If you don't get it, it may be tough to explain to others, although
sometimes verbalizing is a path to clarity. Being pedantic for a moment,
there is not any single unschooler's perspective - but the accumulated
experience and wisdom of many. Sometimes unschooling is easier to grasp and
explain to family in terms of what it is *not*.
<<<<and... if I can put in a late question... What do you do with a child
who is insitent on being the center of attention? To the point that the
child gets in your face if you are conversing with someone else. It does
not seem to matter quantity of time you spend with this child but as soon as
you turn your attention away from this child, the child becomes immediately
unruly, loud and gets right in your face. The parents are at their wits
ends. What suggestions can be given? Thank you.>>>
You have had several helpful responses to this. To be honest I am always
reluctant to make suggestions to third parties like this. You say "the
parents" so it is not you, your child, with your personal and intimate
knowledge of the whole story. That makes it harder to help. Are they
unschoolers?
Robyn L. Coburn
---------------------------------
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Danielle Conger
Basically this was her
the teacher is pairing kids for a science project and says, "If you don't
like your partner, you can complain. But it won't change anything. It's part
of my life is unfair theme that I'm working into all my curriculum."
There's far too much of that mentality in the schools for my taste.Miserable
people like to make the rest of the world miserable right along with them,
it seems, both in school and out.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
> negative take on life and I needed to understand whatThere's a great line in one of the episodes of Disney's Kim Possible:
> the "real world" was like for adults.
> ================
the teacher is pairing kids for a science project and says, "If you don't
like your partner, you can complain. But it won't change anything. It's part
of my life is unfair theme that I'm working into all my curriculum."
There's far too much of that mentality in the schools for my taste.Miserable
people like to make the rest of the world miserable right along with them,
it seems, both in school and out.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
Kelly Muzyczka
>When I worked in a grad school the PhD candidates talked about this. They
>There's far too much of that mentality in the schools for my taste.Miserable
>people like to make the rest of the world miserable right along with them,
>it seems, both in school and out.
>
>--Danielle
really described the whole process as academic hazing. It wasn't about
learning the field or learning academic/scientific discipline. It was
about pleasing the people on your committee.
-sigh-
Then I got into a huge fight with folks on an e-list I've been on for years
because I said that just having a PhD wasn't an idication of
anything. -sigh- Can't think why I would think that.....
Kelly
(whose four parents include 3 PhD's and a Masters)
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/2004 3:04:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
danielle.conger@... writes:
the teacher is pairing kids for a science project and says, "If you don't
like your partner, you can complain. But it won't change anything. It's part
of my life is unfair theme that I'm working into all my curriculum."
<<<<<
I've watched a lot of the Kim Possible shows with Dunc, but I hadn't heard
this own.
The kids, I'm sure, laugh at it. Nod. And go on. Like, she's right. Yup. OK.
Sad.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
danielle.conger@... writes:
the teacher is pairing kids for a science project and says, "If you don't
like your partner, you can complain. But it won't change anything. It's part
of my life is unfair theme that I'm working into all my curriculum."
<<<<<
I've watched a lot of the Kim Possible shows with Dunc, but I hadn't heard
this own.
The kids, I'm sure, laugh at it. Nod. And go on. Like, she's right. Yup. OK.
Sad.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/2004 9:37:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
angels_heart82@... writes:
When I was a child I would tell her (inform her
is more like it) that I didn't like being ordered
around and treated like I had no feelings or choices
and just do what the adult said because it was
convenient for the adult. She would say there is a
lot of things in life people don't like and I better
get used to it. When a person gets a job, their boss
will tell them what to do and they have to do whether
they like it or not or get fired.<<<<
NO! He could QUIT first! <g>
pay bills, the government makes laws you have to obey
or go to jail, etc etc. <<<<<
You don't HAVE to! You can work to stay under taxable income. You can not
pay and go to prison. You can move to another country----LOTS of options for
the IRS.
Creditors? Don't use credit! <g>
And I bet she used to speed on the highway! Not ALL laws are obeyed or else!
<g>
the "real world" was like for adults.<<<<
Really poopy!
My world is NOTHING like that! Tell her THAT! <BWG>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
angels_heart82@... writes:
When I was a child I would tell her (inform her
is more like it) that I didn't like being ordered
around and treated like I had no feelings or choices
and just do what the adult said because it was
convenient for the adult. She would say there is a
lot of things in life people don't like and I better
get used to it. When a person gets a job, their boss
will tell them what to do and they have to do whether
they like it or not or get fired.<<<<
NO! He could QUIT first! <g>
>>>> The IRS tells youyou have to pay taxes, creditors tell you you have to
pay bills, the government makes laws you have to obey
or go to jail, etc etc. <<<<<
You don't HAVE to! You can work to stay under taxable income. You can not
pay and go to prison. You can move to another country----LOTS of options for
the IRS.
Creditors? Don't use credit! <g>
And I bet she used to speed on the highway! Not ALL laws are obeyed or else!
<g>
>>>>Basically this was hernegative take on life and I needed to understand what
the "real world" was like for adults.<<<<
Really poopy!
My world is NOTHING like that! Tell her THAT! <BWG>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/1/2004 1:02:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
some discussions lately about parenting and unschooling/homeschooling that have
rather dismayed me... I had thought we were on the same page in these areas,
but our discussions lately have made it seem like we might not even be on the
same chapter. I read this post to him and it helped us open a dialogue that
was open and if not an equal exchange, at least hopeful and a distinct lack of
negativity! :~) Hopefully, this will keep our conversations going in the right
direction from here on in-but this post helped us get moving that way! Thanks
so much!
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
> Unschooling means "not schooling." Unschooling parents do not becomeThank you so much for this wonderful post, Pam! Dave and I have been having
> teachers and they don't hold school in their homes. It means children
> are viewed as wanting to become competent and informed and productive
> members of their society in the presence of supportive family and an
> environment that allows experimentation and experience.
>
> {{snip}}
>
> I don't think these other parenting issues are "part and parcel" of
> unschooling. But they tend to often be natural outgrowths of
> unschooling. And examining them and analyzing what sense they make for
> our own famlies, questioning our own parenting choices, can help us
> create the kind of family life that is most conducive to unschooling.
>
> -pam
>
> "To parents I say, above all else, don't let your home become some
> terrible miniature copy of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes!
> No tests! No report cards! Even leaving your kids alone would be
> better; at least they could figure out some things on their own. Live
> together, as well as you can; enjoy life together, as much as you can."
> John Holt in "Teach Your Own"
>
some discussions lately about parenting and unschooling/homeschooling that have
rather dismayed me... I had thought we were on the same page in these areas,
but our discussions lately have made it seem like we might not even be on the
same chapter. I read this post to him and it helped us open a dialogue that
was open and if not an equal exchange, at least hopeful and a distinct lack of
negativity! :~) Hopefully, this will keep our conversations going in the right
direction from here on in-but this post helped us get moving that way! Thanks
so much!
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rhonda McDowell
I hear this kind of rationale ALL the time, especially from people who hear me say I'm considering homeschooling, as an argument for keeping kids in school (they have to learn to get along with people who are difficult ~ like teachers!)
Rhonda
Rhonda
----- Original Message -----
From: Dianne
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Punishment...
I've been reading this discussion on punishment and
the other thread about coersion and free will, and I
hear my mother's voice in my head. It sounds like
this: When I was a child I would tell her (inform her
is more like it) that I didn't like being ordered
around and treated like I had no feelings or choices
and just do what the adult said because it was
convenient for the adult. She would say there is a
lot of things in life people don't like and I better
get used to it. When a person gets a job, their boss
will tell them what to do and they have to do whether
they like it or not or get fired. The IRS tells you
you have to pay taxes, creditors tell you you have to
pay bills, the government makes laws you have to obey
or go to jail, etc etc. Basically this was her
negative take on life and I needed to understand what
the "real world" was like for adults.
=====
Dianne in Tacoma, WA
Well behaved women don't make history.
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