Heather Hall

> Also, what if one child is tired and the other is not? Sometimes the 4 year
> old just wants to go to sleep, but the 3 year old just HAS to bug her. We
> don't have another quiet room for her to sleep in. The 10 year old, who
> regulates her own sleep quite well is in one of the three bedrooms, and the
> baby is with me in the other. If she came out here into the living room and
> actually went to sleep, that would be one thing, but when I've tried having
> her do that, she starts playing or talking to me about anything and
> everything (remember this is time I really, really want to myself to read,
> watch an adult-themed movie, knit quietly and think...whatever!). It just
> doesn't work. Those of you who have actually gone to no bedtime when your
> kids were younger, what did you do to have time to yourself?
Would the 10 year old be willing to share the room for sleeping with the 4
year old who seems to sleep well?
--
Heather, mom to
Harriet 12.15.99
Crispin 01.25.02
heatherette@...

eriksmama2001

Part of the beauty is knowing that I have made a choice to have a
child in my life and with that comes changes. A small child will only
be small for a short time. A friend of mine says "the days are long,
but the years are short". The mantra "this too shall pass" is
powerful. Also, another friend mentored me that "as soon as you
figure it out, it changes". These are useful self-talk tools to put
my choices in perspective.

Basically, if I mentally reframe the situation, it is empowering. At
times, I choose to submit to all that parenting offers. Part of that
is learning to stretch my own ability to delay gratification. VERY
HARD when I am tired or hungary. I have learned what my priority core
needs are. I know that I must meet those in order to nurture the
needs and challenges of others. When these are not met, my creative
problem solving abilities suffer.

The book, Living Joyfully With Children by Win and Bill Sweet is
inspirational about the value of self care. It offers suggestions on
incorporating conscious choices in our lives.

Another valuable book is Happiness is A Choice, by Barry Kaufman. It
is amazing how empowering our choice of perspective can be to
enjoying life in all situations.

Tactically, giving information is the post powerful way for the 3 y/o
to learn, not comply, but learn how and why "bugging" her sibling is
disturbing. We use no punishment or rewards, but our 3 y/o
understands that playing his drums while someone is sleeping means
that someone can't rest.

Engaging her in special time together during this time is one choice,
instead of "time for yourself". Basically, she is engaging you
anyway, so make it enjoyable for both of you. Time enjoyed together
IS time for yourself. Another suggestion is to explain how important
time alone is to you. Just as she probably prefers to do some things
alone, she can understand. IT JUST TAKES TIME. You may not see the
learning, but it is happening.

I consider this an opportunity for me to see how small steps add up
to a long term goal. Modeling patience during this process is in
itself a very valuable skill for my son to see.

I read that "our children teach us what we most need to learn".
Parenting is a humbling and fascinating opportunity to learn, change
and grow with my son.

Pat

In [email protected], Heather Hall
<Heatherette@c...> wrote:
> > Also, what if one child is tired and the other is not? Sometimes
the 4 year
> > old just wants to go to sleep, but the 3 year old just HAS to bug
her. We
> > don't have another quiet room for her to sleep in. The 10 year
old, who
> > regulates her own sleep quite well is in one of the three
bedrooms, and the
> > baby is with me in the other. If she came out here into the
living room and
> > actually went to sleep, that would be one thing, but when I've
tried having
> > her do that, she starts playing or talking to me about anything
and
> > everything (remember this is time I really, really want to
myself to read,
> > watch an adult-themed movie, knit quietly and
think...whatever!). It just
> > doesn't work. Those of you who have actually gone to no bedtime
when your
> > kids were younger, what did you do to have time to yourself?
> Would the 10 year old be willing to share the room for sleeping
with the 4
> year old who seems to sleep well?
> --
> Heather, mom to
> Harriet 12.15.99
> Crispin 01.25.02
> heatherette@c...

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/23/04 7:26:51 AM, scubamama@... writes:

<< A friend of mine says "the days are long,

but the years are short". The mantra "this too shall pass" is

powerful. Also, another friend mentored me that "as soon as you

figure it out, it changes". These are useful self-talk tools to put

my choices in perspective.>>

Those are good ones!
Nobody's two year old is ever two for more than a year. <g>


<<Basically, if I mentally reframe the situation, it is empowering. >>

YES.
Lots of the negativity in people takes the form of voices in their head.
Their own voice (guilt, fear) or messages of others they've allowed to become the
soundtrack of their lives.

You can change the tapes!

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/23/2004 9:26:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
scubamama@... writes:

> Tactically, giving information is the post powerful way for the 3 y/o
> to learn, not comply, but learn how and why "bugging" her sibling is
> disturbing. We use no punishment or rewards, but our 3 y/o
> understands that playing his drums while someone is sleeping means
> that someone can't rest.
>

Does he remember it? I'm pretty sure my 5 year old understands it, but can't
seem to remember it... I'm about at my wit's end trying to figure out why or
what I can do to help the situation...

Peace,
Sang


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andrea Burlingame

I always give information to my 3 and 4 yo about why this or why not that.
To use one of my mother's sayings (which I've actually never said to either
of them, surprisingly): It goes in one ear and out the other. They say
they understand that I need quiet in order for their baby brother to settle
down to sleep, but are screaming or jumping on the bed or calling me (loudly
and repeatedly) within minutes--sometimes as soon as I lay down with the
baby and he has just begun to nurse. Often, he will have just drifted off
when they start and it wakes him and he then wants to get up and get in on
the action, whatever it is. This frustrates me no end! If I try to remind
them that he is trying to sleep, I wake him up further. If I just lay there
hoping they will stop soon, it escalates. I usually have to say something
and accept that I will be lying there awhile longer trying to get him to
sleep--often doing this several times, and I often have to actually get up
and go into their room and settle some difference and remind them to be
quiet. Many times, I wind up yelling at them, which I feel horrible about.
BUT THEY JUST WON'T STOP. I'm not kidding! I'm seriously at my wits end
about this.

Alas, as I said in my other post, I've been trying to have them go to
seperate rooms to sleep, and it has helped for the last couple of nights.
Hope it continues to go well.

I kind of got off the topic, though. I responded to this post, because no
matter how I explain things to my children, they just don't seem to care
really. It doesn't do much to change the behavior at all. Perhaps this is
because of their age. I know that eventually they will be more
considerate, but right now, they really don't seem to give a rat's a** that
I need quiet time, or the baby needs to sleep. And it's not for lack of
modeling. I don't let the baby go in their rooms when they are sleeping in
the morning, and when one of the tells me she needs time to herself, I make
sure she gets it. I respect their needs and attend to them. I know they
are young, but I keep hearing on this list about all these amazing young
children who get it when you explain something to them. I admit, when I had
only one, she was like that, but now with 3...ugh...no way. They wear me
down and ignore me, etc... It's like I don't have a voice. I'm exhausted.
I can't even explain how hard it gets around here. I feel like a lame,
ineffectual, unimportant nobody.

~Andrea
----- Original Message -----
From: <Sanguinegirl83@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Change and grow


> In a message dated 7/23/2004 9:26:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> scubamama@... writes:
>
> > Tactically, giving information is the post powerful way for the 3 y/o
> > to learn, not comply, but learn how and why "bugging" her sibling is
> > disturbing. We use no punishment or rewards, but our 3 y/o
> > understands that playing his drums while someone is sleeping means
> > that someone can't rest.
> >
>
> Does he remember it? I'm pretty sure my 5 year old understands it, but
can't
> seem to remember it... I'm about at my wit's end trying to figure out why
or
> what I can do to help the situation...
>
> Peace,
> Sang
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

eriksmama2001

I am afraid I'll "jinx it"; let's leave it at that. lol.

Pat



--- In [email protected], Sanguinegirl83@a...
wrote:
> In a message dated 7/23/2004 9:26:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> scubamama@e... writes:
>
> > Tactically, giving information is the post powerful way for the 3
y/o
> > to learn, not comply, but learn how and why "bugging" her sibling
is
> > disturbing. We use no punishment or rewards, but our 3 y/o
> > understands that playing his drums while someone is sleeping
means
> > that someone can't rest.
> >
>
> Does he remember it? I'm pretty sure my 5 year old understands it,
but can't
> seem to remember it... I'm about at my wit's end trying to figure
out why or
> what I can do to help the situation...
>
> Peace,
> Sang
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

Did I miss some specific issue you are having? I glanced back at the
last several day's posts and didn't find what behavior is challenging
your wits.

Multiple minds might help with some suggestions for you to ponder or
weigh for your family.

Pat



--- In [email protected], Sanguinegirl83@a...
wrote:
> In a message dated 7/23/2004 9:26:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> scubamama@e... writes:
>
> > Tactically, giving information is the post powerful way for the 3
y/o
> > to learn, not comply, but learn how and why "bugging" her sibling
is
> > disturbing. We use no punishment or rewards, but our 3 y/o
> > understands that playing his drums while someone is sleeping
means
> > that someone can't rest.
> >
>
> Does he remember it? I'm pretty sure my 5 year old understands it,
but can't
> seem to remember it... I'm about at my wit's end trying to figure
out why or
> what I can do to help the situation...
>
> Peace,
> Sang
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/27/04 11:46:07 AM, aburlingame@... writes:

<< I always give information to my 3 and 4 yo about why this or why not that.
>>

Maybe too much information. Maybe you need to model and participate in quiet
activities so they see what you mean, and have experience doing it.

-=- I responded to this post, because no

matter how I explain things to my children, they just don't seem to care

really. It doesn't do much to change the behavior at all. Perhaps this is

because of their age. -=-

Explaining isn't working then.

-=- And it's not for lack of

modeling. I don't let the baby go in their rooms when they are sleeping in

the morning-=-

They can't see that when they're asleep.

-=-They wear me

down and ignore me, etc... It's like I don't have a voice. -=-

Maybe you've said the same thing too much. I've been around some parents who
are being ignored by the kids, but it seems sometimes (maybe not in your
case, I'm just throwing out a guess) that the parents are saying their same thing
in an automatic-sounding voice which the kids seem to have learned to ignore
years ago.

Try to say something they've never heard before every time you talk to them,
maybe.

Sandra

catherine aceto

Are you providing them with suggestions on other things to do? Saying "don't wake the baby" is not nearly as helpful as saying, "play ball downstairs in the playroom" or "wear the tv headphones when the baby is sleeping."

Another for example from us -- my daughter used to want to wake me up to tell me things if I went to bed (with the baby) before she did. Now she and my husband write me a note and leave it on the computer so that I will see it when I get up of all the things that she wanted to tell me. She is happy and doesn't worry that she will forget to tell me and I get to sleep.

-Cat





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mamaaj2000

What helps with my 3.5 y o is telling him the need and letting him
figure out what to do. "The baby needs quiet to go to sleep. What do
you want to do?" and sometimes just the first sentence.

He also forgets a lot because he's only 3.5! It's really hard. Maybe
a fan or something else that makes white noise where the baby is
would help.

--aj

--- In [email protected], "Andrea Burlingame"
<aburlingame@c...> wrote:
> I always give information to my 3 and 4 yo about why this or why
not that.
> To use one of my mother's sayings (which I've actually never said
to either
> of them, surprisingly): It goes in one ear and out the other.
They say
> they understand that I need quiet in order for their baby brother
to settle
> down to sleep, but are screaming or jumping on the bed or calling
me (loudly
> and repeatedly) within minutes--sometimes as soon as I lay down
with the
> baby and he has just begun to nurse.

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "mamaaj2000" <mamaaj2000@y...>
wrote:
> What helps with my 3.5 y o is telling him the need and letting him
> figure out what to do. "The baby needs quiet to go to sleep. What do
> you want to do?" and sometimes just the first sentence.
>
> He also forgets a lot because he's only 3.5! It's really hard. Maybe
> a fan or something else that makes white noise where the baby is
> would help.

One other idea.

My 2-3 year old really liked headphones. I used to save books on tape or music for when I
had ot nurse. He'd wear the headphones and have to be quiet to enjoy the stories or music
inside. We also had little rocking chairs so they could rock while I rocked.

Videos worked well for us too. Low volume.

And I remember the exhaustion of parenting and needing to sleep. Any chance to hire a
girl to come play with the kids once a week in a playroom while you get one solid nap with
baby? Worth all the money to be able to count on one good day a week...

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/27/04 2:59:10 PM, julie@... writes:

<< Any chance to hire a

girl to come play with the kids once a week in a playroom while you get one
solid nap with

baby? >>

Good idea. Maybe once a day! Maybe a neighbor kid could come every day
after school. It would be a good break for her and for you too!

Sandra

J. Stauffer

<<<<<< I know they
> are young, but I keep hearing on this list about all these amazing young
> children who get it when you explain something to them. I admit, when I
had
> only one, she was like that, but now with 3...ugh...no way. >>>>>

I really think the difference is the age of the kids and the number of the
kids at that young age.

When you have an only child, or only one quite young child, that child is
living more in an adult-thinking oriented world.

When you have 3 little kids living together, they are living more in a
child-thinking oriented world.

When you have the only child, you can explain that you need quiet time and
the child understands and goes along with it.

When you have 3 little children, you can explain that you need quiet time
and the children understand and go along with it until somebody starts
giggling, or somebody speaks brusquely or somebody forgets to say please.
Then child B responds to child A in a slightly rowdy manner and Child A
responds to child B in a slightly more rowdy manner and then it is
katy-bar-the-door.

I have to say (having 3 kids myself within 3 years of each other) that I
think your expectations of them aren't reasonable. I know it wouldn't work
in our house for me to go off to lay down with the baby in another room and
expect the others to be quiet or even to get along for very long.

I didn't catch the age of your baby....but what about a sling? What about
sitting down with the kids, all cuddled up together eating popcorn and
watching a movie, to nurse the baby?

Just a thought.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrea Burlingame" <aburlingame@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Change and grow


> I always give information to my 3 and 4 yo about why this or why not that.
> To use one of my mother's sayings (which I've actually never said to
either
> of them, surprisingly): It goes in one ear and out the other. They say
> they understand that I need quiet in order for their baby brother to
settle
> down to sleep, but are screaming or jumping on the bed or calling me
(loudly
> and repeatedly) within minutes--sometimes as soon as I lay down with the
> baby and he has just begun to nurse. Often, he will have just drifted off
> when they start and it wakes him and he then wants to get up and get in on
> the action, whatever it is. This frustrates me no end! If I try to
remind
> them that he is trying to sleep, I wake him up further. If I just lay
there
> hoping they will stop soon, it escalates. I usually have to say something
> and accept that I will be lying there awhile longer trying to get him to
> sleep--often doing this several times, and I often have to actually get up
> and go into their room and settle some difference and remind them to be
> quiet. Many times, I wind up yelling at them, which I feel horrible
about.
> BUT THEY JUST WON'T STOP. I'm not kidding! I'm seriously at my wits end
> about this.
>
> Alas, as I said in my other post, I've been trying to have them go to
> seperate rooms to sleep, and it has helped for the last couple of nights.
> Hope it continues to go well.
>
> I kind of got off the topic, though. I responded to this post, because no
> matter how I explain things to my children, they just don't seem to care
> really. It doesn't do much to change the behavior at all. Perhaps this
is
> because of their age. I know that eventually they will be more
> considerate, but right now, they really don't seem to give a rat's a**
that
> I need quiet time, or the baby needs to sleep. And it's not for lack of
> modeling. I don't let the baby go in their rooms when they are sleeping
in
> the morning, and when one of the tells me she needs time to herself, I
make
> sure she gets it. I respect their needs and attend to them. I know they
> are young, but I keep hearing on this list about all these amazing young
> children who get it when you explain something to them. I admit, when I
had
> only one, she was like that, but now with 3...ugh...no way. They wear me
> down and ignore me, etc... It's like I don't have a voice. I'm
exhausted.
> I can't even explain how hard it gets around here. I feel like a lame,
> ineffectual, unimportant nobody.
>
> ~Andrea
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Sanguinegirl83@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 1:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Change and grow
>
>
> > In a message dated 7/23/2004 9:26:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > scubamama@... writes:
> >
> > > Tactically, giving information is the post powerful way for the 3 y/o
> > > to learn, not comply, but learn how and why "bugging" her sibling is
> > > disturbing. We use no punishment or rewards, but our 3 y/o
> > > understands that playing his drums while someone is sleeping means
> > > that someone can't rest.
> > >
> >
> > Does he remember it? I'm pretty sure my 5 year old understands it, but
> can't
> > seem to remember it... I'm about at my wit's end trying to figure out
why
> or
> > what I can do to help the situation...
> >
> > Peace,
> > Sang
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

AM Brown

> They wear me down and ignore me, etc... It's like I don't have a voice. I'm >exhausted. I can't even explain how hard it gets around here. I feel like a lame,
>ineffectual, unimportant nobody.


I'm sorry you are struggling so. Having 3 young children is hard. A sound machine would really help with the noise issue, with that on in our room a band could play in the hall and it wouldn't wake us :) I believe it is unrealistic to think two small children are going to be perfectly quite while you put a baby down to sleep. I have found if I engage my kids in something fun then after that they are ready to play by themselves while I do something else. It may seem to you like they don't care but my guess is they really just want more attention and are sensing the negative energy you have about it. Kids can be little barometers of our stress and energy. So getting yourself to a better place should be a priority, IMO. A mother's helper or engaging your spouse (if you have one) or other friends or family members might help also. This time will pass quickly, although I know it doesn't feel that way when you are in the thick of it. Good luck.
Anna

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn Adams

They say
they understand that I need quiet in order for their baby brother to settle
down to sleep, but are screaming or jumping on the bed or calling me (loudly
and repeatedly) within minutes--sometimes as soon as I lay down with the
baby and he has just begun to nurse
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Could you put a good movie in the VCR and give them a plate of snacks?

Dawn (in NS)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gerard Westenberg

<<What about
sitting down with the kids, all cuddled up together eating popcorn and
watching a movie, to nurse the baby?>>

My first three were born three in three and a half years. The next four are pretty close together, too. I found that I couldn't expect the kids to play quietly together while I was off elsewhere or with the baby - the sheer numbers enouraged a different sort of play,. :-)

The movie idea is a good one. We would often pop on a video or watch the children's afternoon TV shows, with pillows and snacks ,and I would sit down with my feet up and feed the baby - we would all get a little break for a short period of time. Lots of talking about the shows, too.

Sometimes, one of the younger kids would fall asleep in front of the TV, on their pillow, ...Leonie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Jul 27, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Andrea Burlingame wrote:

> Many times, I wind up yelling at them, which I feel horrible about.
> BUT THEY JUST WON'T STOP. I'm not kidding! I'm seriously at my wits
> end
> about this.

Will they watch a really cool video during that time? Eat popcorn or a
popsicle or something else that keeps their mouths busy? <G>

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/27/2004 12:45:57 PM Central Standard Time,
aburlingame@... writes:

Many times, I wind up yelling at them, which I feel horrible about.
BUT THEY JUST WON'T STOP. I'm not kidding! I'm seriously at my wits end
about this


~~~

They want your attention, too. It might be easier if you offered to read a
book to them while you nursed the baby, or perhaps some other quiet activity.
Could they play Go Fish with you quietly, while the baby helped play your
hand and nursed? Maybe there's a really interesting picture book that
everyone could look at and talk quietly about while the baby settles in? Maybe you
could all watch a video together? Let them choose it. Make sure you turn
all the lights down, get the house quiet, and keep the outside distractions to
a minimum.

It's obvious that you want their cooperation in getting the baby to sleep.
They probably feel left out because the baby gets your undivided attention.
They're too young to rationalize that they get their time with you later. If
you really want their cooperation, you're going to have to involve them in
the process. I could be a really lovely time for all 4 of you. So what if
the baby doesn't go to sleep as quickly? It's not like he is getting a
peaceful time of it now, either. Good luck.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andrea Burlingame

The girls get a lot of my attention. I read to them many times during the
day and evening, both before and after getting the baby down, too. I also
sing songs and "tickle" their tummies and backs before sleep (this is really
just running my fingers lightly over their skin to relax them--my 4yo in
particular loves this.) and talk to them about each of their days.
Sometimes I have to nurse the baby while I sing and talk, and other times,
he's already asleep and I can just lay down next to them (they take turns
having me next to them each night, but I always stroke and cuddle each some
before bed.) I've tried to read while nursing Evan, but he just sits up and
grabs the pages and my face, because he's tired and wants my full attention,
too, so it works better to just turn off the lights, (or turn them down if
the girls want to play quietly) and then take him into our room to go to
sleep. Once I get him down, if they aren't sleeping and especially if I
haven't had a chance to read and sing to them yet, I will go and read to
them and sing. If I've already done that I'll go and ask them if they need
water or to go to the bathroom, and then I will cuddle them again before
going off to read, knit, watch an adult-themed movie or whatever.

What's frustrating is that they will often bicker and fuss as soon as I go
to put Evan down, or after I've got him down and spent time with them.
Whether they are choosing to go to sleep or "play quietly in their room"
doesn't seem to matter. Inevitably, some ruckus starts up that requires my
attention at the very least or wakes up Evan for the umpteenth time. I do
think sharing a bed has been a big problem, because when Annie was still in
her crib and Stella had her own bed, yet they shared a room, this wasn't so
much a problem. Annie tends to find ways to aggravate Stella (and
occasionally it's the other way around.) And the last few nights of seperate
beds has really helped.

The video trick, that others have suggested too, is worth trying, though
often what has happened is they have just finished watching a movie with me
and are tired and ready to get in bed. Still, they somehow get going again,
and besides, part of my trouble is that *I* need quiet time, not movies
with them. I need time to think about the day and sort out the next. I
like to knit and read uninterrupted. I know they are little and it won't be
like this forever. I have a 15 yo son and he eventually came to regulate
himself quite well and could be in another room for a few hours in the
evening without me. (for that matter, he was just a mellow guy most of the
time anyway, and I didn't much mind him being in the same room with me!)
Having three little ones at once is so different from that. I really, truly
feel that I need some space in order to be a good mom the next day.

~Andrea
----- Original Message -----
From: <tuckervill2@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Change and grow


>
> In a message dated 7/27/2004 12:45:57 PM Central Standard Time,
> aburlingame@... writes:
>
> Many times, I wind up yelling at them, which I feel horrible about.
> BUT THEY JUST WON'T STOP. I'm not kidding! I'm seriously at my wits end
> about this
>
>
> ~~~
>
> They want your attention, too. It might be easier if you offered to read
a
> book to them while you nursed the baby, or perhaps some other quiet
activity.
> Could they play Go Fish with you quietly, while the baby helped play
your
> hand and nursed? Maybe there's a really interesting picture book that
> everyone could look at and talk quietly about while the baby settles in?
Maybe you
> could all watch a video together? Let them choose it. Make sure you
turn
> all the lights down, get the house quiet, and keep the outside
distractions to
> a minimum.
>
> It's obvious that you want their cooperation in getting the baby to
sleep.
> They probably feel left out because the baby gets your undivided
attention.
> They're too young to rationalize that they get their time with you later.
If
> you really want their cooperation, you're going to have to involve them
in
> the process. I could be a really lovely time for all 4 of you. So what
if
> the baby doesn't go to sleep as quickly? It's not like he is getting a
> peaceful time of it now, either. Good luck.
>
> Karen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/27/2004 2:51:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
scubamama@... writes:

> Did I miss some specific issue you are having? I glanced back at the
> last several day's posts and didn't find what behavior is challenging
> your wits.
>

Sorry I didn't make it clear. I was wondering how it was possible to get a
young child to "understand that *playing drums* (or some other noisy activity)
while someone is sleeping means that someone can't rest". I explain and he says
he understands, seems to understand, but it doesn't seem to affect his
behavior. I compliment him or comment on how great it is when his quiet play happens
to coincide with the sleeping period of another person, but that hasn't
seemed to help, either... maybe because it doesn't happen often... :~)
I'm baffled and rather disgruntled, but not ready to "blow my top" over it...
I would like some suggestions, though, if anyone has any. Thanks!

Peace,
Sang


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 8/4/04 3:13 AM, Sanguinegirl83@... at Sanguinegirl83@... wrote:

> I explain and he says
> he understands, seems to understand, but it doesn't seem to affect his
> behavior.

Do you know that you should eat until you're satisfied and not until you
have to unbutton the top button of your pants?

Do you know that 30 minutes of exercise a day is the minimum recommended
exercise to keep healthy?

Do you know that it takes more than 5 seconds to get ready to leave the
house *even* when you're reading a book you can't put down?

Knowing isn't the same as being able to do.

How about putting the drums up when someone's sleeping? Or in the room with
the sleeping person?

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/04 3:07:33 AM, Sanguinegirl83@... writes:

<< I was wondering how it was possible to get a
young child to "understand that *playing drums* (or some other noisy
activity)
while someone is sleeping means that someone can't rest". I explain and he
says
he understands, seems to understand, but it doesn't seem to affect his
behavior. >>

An hour is a really long time for a toddler.
Their attention spans are short, their understanding is NOT what they say it
is, or what you hope it would be.

-=-I'm baffled and rather disgruntled, but not ready to "blow my top" over
it...
I would like some suggestions, though, if anyone has any. -=-

Maybe this post has shown up late, but I thought there were several
suggestions of making sure the noisy toys were up, and doing something quiet with him.

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

<<<<Sorry I didn't make it clear. I was wondering how it was possible to get
a young child to "understand that *playing drums* (or some other noisy
activity) while someone is sleeping means that someone can't rest". I
explain and he says he understands, seems to understand, but it doesn't seem
to affect his behavior. I compliment him or comment on how great it is when
his quiet play happens to coincide with the sleeping period of another
person, but that hasn't seemed to help, either... maybe because it doesn't
happen often... :~)I'm baffled and rather disgruntled, but not ready to
"blow my top" over it... I would like some suggestions, though, if anyone
has any. Thanks!>>>

I wanted to add to the other suggestions, that it takes a time and mucho
repetition. I still have to ask Jayn not to make too much noise almost every
time, and I avoid using any kind of "how many times do I have to tell
you...." or "why can't you remember...." phrases. When I say to Jayn
something like "That's too loud and will disturb Daddy" she will often
immediately come up with several alternatives like "Can I pretend to hit
it?" or "Can I hit this chair?". The work it takes to do the same thing
quietly (think of just tapping drums instead of beating on them) means that
she usually quits and finds another game after a few minutes.

In the case of Jumping - "Can I tippy toe jump?" It's really just too cute.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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pam sorooshian

On Aug 4, 2004, at 6:13 AM, Robyn Coburn wrote:

> I wanted to add to the other suggestions, that it takes a time and
> mucho
> repetition. I still have to ask Jayn not to make too much noise almost
> every
> time, and I avoid using any kind of "how many times do I have to tell
> you...." or "why can't you remember...." phrases.

My husband used to get mad - right off the bat. And then he'd lecture.
"Your mom is tired and taking a nap and you need to be quiet and not
wake her up so stop singing so loud and don't jump up and down anymore.
No you can't watch tv right now. blah blah blah."

He didn't have much understanding of little kids - what was reasonable
to expect, etc.

I couldn't ever get him to read the whole book, but I taught him some
very specific things from the "How to Talk..." book. And, lucky for me,
my credibility went sky high because we had a little minor miracle <G>.

He has a thing about damp towels being left draped over the couch back
or chair backs. Hates it. So our oldest child was probably about 5 and
she stood right in front of us and started to lay her wet towel on the
couch. Normally that would have set my dh off on a tirade - but I'd
told him about the idea (from the book) of just saying a word or two -
so instead he just said, calmly, "towel."

She looked up, startled, bounced back to the towel and grabbed it and
trotted to the bathroom and hung it up happily.

He was STUNNED.

And willing to try other ideas from the book, too, after that.
Just giving brief information, not making demands or requests or long
explanations - "Dad is sleeping," "Wet towels make the furniture damp,"
"Dirty dishes attract ants," "Somebody could trip on those legos,," is
another thing my dh learned to do well. These things REALLY helped him.

It doesn't come naturally to him and when he's tired or stressed he
still loses touch with a lot of what he now knows about how to talk to
kids. But I give him a break because we DO stress him beyond reason
around here - with our messes and nonstop activity, we exhaust him. It
isn't really the lifestyle he'd choose, or would have chosen if he'd
had a crystal ball 25 years ago.

Anyway - the original question - about a child who seems to understand
but doesn't carry through on that understanding -- my answer is that it
is rude and annoying for the parent to continue to explain something
the child has been told before and seems to understand. Instead, just
be helpful and give minimal reminders, distractions, help, etc. Use one
word reminders, if you tend to explain too repetitively.

My girls are 19, 16, and 13. When their dad goes to bed early and we're
all out in the living room watching tv, playing games, doing arts and
crafts projects, etc., I am STILL more aware of his need for us to be
reasonably quiet, than they are. So even at their ages I am the one who
will, about 80 percent of the time, say, "Your dad is sleeping." (Just
state the fact - they KNOW what it means and why I'm saying it.) But -
they've ALSO certainly said it to me and each other: "Mom, that's
loud." <G> (They don't say to me, "Mom, that is loud and you know dad
is trying to sleep and it is important that we be quiet so he can get a
good sleep because he has to go to work and if he doesn't sleep enough
he'll be cranky and why don't you put that down and come play this
quiet game with us and blah blah blah.....")

The original question immediately made me think of "How to Talk so Kids
will Listen and listen so Kids will Talk." Such a practical book! What
a life-changing book for so many people!!

-pam

National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

eriksmama2001

Apparently it is more important to him to have some auditory or
tactile (?) benefit from the experience of drumming or whatever than
the alternative activities available.

We also have some electric drums which came with a headset. We have a
practice pad that gives him the same physical sensation. We have
pretend paper drums that he "plays" and makes the drumming sounds
vocally. We have drum videos that he watches with the volume turned
softer. We have many ways of meeting our son's sensory experiences of
drumming which are not all disturbing to the house. He also has
outdoor activities and a jump-o-lene to meet his jumping needs, etc...

What is the need the child is trying to meet? What is the need you
are trying to meet?

Many suggestions are available for the sleeping individual too. Ear
plugs, white-noise in the sleeping space, soft music in the sleeping
space, close doors, move the drums to another site (garage, porch),
etc.

Basically, I believe our son is ready/able to not disturb others with
his drums but that doesn't mean your son is ready/able (endowed with
the tools/toys/restraint to do so yet) otherwise I believe he would.
Why choose to disturb people unless some need is perceived as being
met by doing so?

Children and adults do things for a reason. Discover the need/reason
and work together to met each person's needs creatively. Share your
observations of patterns of his behaviors as information for him to
incorporate in his self-awareness. Your observations may or may not
be correct. As he matures he will become more able to state his needs
and reasons for his behavior/actions with requests and words and
strategy to meet them if he has had problem solving modeled. Rather
than having his needs suppressed, ignored, or punished for
demonstration (behavior) that is disharmoneous to you and others show
him how his behavior effects others (give information) and work
together make his needs as important of a priority as your own. I
believe this is how he will learn to see your needs as important as
his own.

Pat


--- In [email protected], Sanguinegirl83@a...
wrote:
> In a message dated 7/27/2004 2:51:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> scubamama@e... writes:
>
> > Did I miss some specific issue you are having? I glanced back at
the
> > last several day's posts and didn't find what behavior is
challenging
> > your wits.
> >
>
> Sorry I didn't make it clear. I was wondering how it was possible
to get a
> young child to "understand that *playing drums* (or some other
noisy activity)
> while someone is sleeping means that someone can't rest". I explain
and he says
> he understands, seems to understand, but it doesn't seem to affect
his
> behavior. I compliment him or comment on how great it is when his
quiet play happens
> to coincide with the sleeping period of another person, but that
hasn't
> seemed to help, either... maybe because it doesn't happen
often... :~)
> I'm baffled and rather disgruntled, but not ready to "blow my top"
over it...
> I would like some suggestions, though, if anyone has any. Thanks!
>
> Peace,
> Sang
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

This solution may not be agreeable to all parties. Again it might.

If only one person's solution is considered, there really is no
consideration occuring. There are many possible solutions to meet
needs, sometimes removing the temptation is useful. I do this by
putting chocolate out of my site. But I choose this. No one decides
for me.

For instance, a choice of no drums in the house or drums in the
sleeping room are limited solutions which may or may not meet the
needs of all parties involved.

My prioriity is for my son to learn to solve problems through
consideration of other's needs. If I don't demonstrate this
consideration of his needs (above a quiet house even), how will he
learn? The need for a quiet house can be met many ways also. I work
to creatively find a way to meet both of our needs. (not implying
that you don't).


Pat

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> on 8/4/04 3:13 AM, Sanguinegirl83@a... at Sanguinegirl83@a... wrote:
>
> > I explain and he says
> > he understands, seems to understand, but it doesn't seem to
affect his
> > behavior.
>
> Do you know that you should eat until you're satisfied and not
until you
> have to unbutton the top button of your pants?
>
> Do you know that 30 minutes of exercise a day is the minimum
recommended
> exercise to keep healthy?
>
> Do you know that it takes more than 5 seconds to get ready to leave
the
> house *even* when you're reading a book you can't put down?
>
> Knowing isn't the same as being able to do.
>
> How about putting the drums up when someone's sleeping? Or in the
room with
> the sleeping person?
>
> Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/04 11:11:29 AM, scubamama@... writes:

<< Basically, I believe our son is ready/able to not disturb others with

his drums but that doesn't mean your son is ready/able (endowed with

the tools/toys/restraint to do so yet) otherwise I believe he would.

Why choose to disturb people unless some need is perceived as being

met by doing so? >>

Lack of awareness and experience.

-=-that doesn't mean your son is ready/able (endowed with

the tools/toys/restraint to do so yet)-=-

Where would you say that endowment comes from?
"Endowed" is an interesting word choice in this context.

-=-Children and adults do things for a reason. Discover the need/reason

and work together to met each person's needs creatively. -=-

Do you really think no one ever just does something for the heck of it, out
of boredom or distraction or momentary curiosity? That's not "a reason" or a
"need."

People will make better decisions when they know what all the factors are.
Pulling plants out of the ground can be casual, purposeful, helpful or
criminal. Someone's "need" to pull plants out doesn't override other
considerations, unless he owns the plants in question himself.

-=-I believe this is how he will learn to see your needs as important as

his own. -=-

There are priorities in the world, and not all people's needs are equally
important at any one moment or in any one place.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/04 11:11:43 AM, scubamama@... writes:

<< My prioriity is for my son to learn to solve problems through

consideration of other's needs. If I don't demonstrate this

consideration of his needs (above a quiet house even), how will he

learn? >>

Unless one of my children has just been bitten by a dog or a snake or is
otherwise bleeding or in mortal danger, someone else's need to sleep (a baby,
their dad, a guest, a sick sibling) outranks their need to make noise. Making
noise is a desire, a plan, an accident, or a purposeful disruption, but it is
very rarely "a need." I say that as a musician, as someone who hammers nails
into walls, runs loud appliances, chops wood, moves furniture and who isn't very
quiet during sex. It is possible to be quiet. It is necessary to learn
when. It is NOT necessary, useful, or empowering for a mother to put a child's
alleged or supposed "NEED" to play drums or do other naturally loud things when
someone is asleep.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/2004 11:12:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> Anyway - the original question - about a child who seems to understand
> but doesn't carry through on that understanding -- my answer is that it
> is rude and annoying for the parent to continue to explain something
> the child has been told before and seems to understand. Instead, just
> be helpful and give minimal reminders, distractions, help, etc. Use one
> word reminders, if you tend to explain too repetitively.
>

This is me all over-I do tend to get very lengthy in my explainations...
Sheesh-sometimes you really have to hit me over the head with something for that
little lightbulb to go on! As I was reading your post, I remembered something:
Wyl has a tendency to go off (downstairs, outside, etc.) and leave his bedroom
door open (he doesn't like the cats getting in his room) and the big,
overhead light on. After a while, I got tired of, "Wyl, you left your light on and
the door open. You need to go up and shut off the light and close your door", I
wanted a REALLY short way to say all that, so we came up with acronyms:
SYD-pronounced like Sid-(Shut Your Door) TOYL-pronounced "toil" (Turn Off Your
LIght) and that would be his name when he forgot to do those things. Oddly enough,
it doesn't seem to have helped him remember to do those things much, but it
has taken the conflict out of that particular "reminder". I don't get upset and
"long-winded" because he didn't remember for the "umpteenth" time, and he
doesn't get exasperated with me reminding him and lecturing. Just a simple name,
"Sid Toyl", its done and we're continuing with where we were! Now, why couldn't
I put 2 and 2 together there and see I could do that in other areas?! For
someone who's pretty bright sometimes, I'm often fairly dense! LOL Thanks for the
reminder, Pam. I've GOT to get that book from the library one of these
days...!

Peace,
Sang


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]