Nail and cheek biting
Robyn Coburn
Dh and I are having an ongoing conflict about Jayn(4.5) chewing the inside
of her cheek, and biting her finger and toenails. His response is to mention
it to her pretty much whenever he notices her doing it, which I think is
counterproductive � he is not saying �don�t do it� or being angry, but is
clearly disapproving when he says �Are you chewing your �..�. Mine is to say
let�s reduce the stress in her life as much as possible, and have tried
suggesting that he shouldn�t be saying anything to her. Oops.
The conflict between us has escalated since he thinks I am �ignoring a
serious health issue� and �putting my head in the sand� and �shouldn�t be
giving him shit about saying anything to Jayn�. I think these are three
different ideas but he is rolling them into one big speech. (Did I mention
he gets very angry if anyone interrupts him while he is speaking, so there
is no addressing each point as it comes up. Nor does he accept me wanting to
walk away from an argument, even if it so I can cool off.)
I think he is exaggerating the �problem� and that other people�s experiences
with this kind of thing have shown me that the absent minded chewing simply
migrates to something else �compulsive� seeming, like chewing hair or
clothes. I have agreed that we should try to look for triggers and
stressors, and reduce those. He doesn�t see anything he might be doing or
saying as a stressor. I think us fighting about it is probably a big one.
In terms of the health issue, over a year ago Jayn got a slightly ingrown
(big)toenail on each foot and they got infected. We simply treated them with
Neosporin and band-aids, and suggested to Jayn the connection between
chewing and infections. No other infections since.
I should add that dh chews his cheeks and claims to have �always� done so. I
used to bite my nails, but now only do so if one of them is cracked and
catching on stuff.
I�m about to Google nail biting.
Any thoughts, either on the nail biting, or ways of ending the conflict? I�m
sure I am missing something really obvious.
Robyn L. Coburn
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of her cheek, and biting her finger and toenails. His response is to mention
it to her pretty much whenever he notices her doing it, which I think is
counterproductive � he is not saying �don�t do it� or being angry, but is
clearly disapproving when he says �Are you chewing your �..�. Mine is to say
let�s reduce the stress in her life as much as possible, and have tried
suggesting that he shouldn�t be saying anything to her. Oops.
The conflict between us has escalated since he thinks I am �ignoring a
serious health issue� and �putting my head in the sand� and �shouldn�t be
giving him shit about saying anything to Jayn�. I think these are three
different ideas but he is rolling them into one big speech. (Did I mention
he gets very angry if anyone interrupts him while he is speaking, so there
is no addressing each point as it comes up. Nor does he accept me wanting to
walk away from an argument, even if it so I can cool off.)
I think he is exaggerating the �problem� and that other people�s experiences
with this kind of thing have shown me that the absent minded chewing simply
migrates to something else �compulsive� seeming, like chewing hair or
clothes. I have agreed that we should try to look for triggers and
stressors, and reduce those. He doesn�t see anything he might be doing or
saying as a stressor. I think us fighting about it is probably a big one.
In terms of the health issue, over a year ago Jayn got a slightly ingrown
(big)toenail on each foot and they got infected. We simply treated them with
Neosporin and band-aids, and suggested to Jayn the connection between
chewing and infections. No other infections since.
I should add that dh chews his cheeks and claims to have �always� done so. I
used to bite my nails, but now only do so if one of them is cracked and
catching on stuff.
I�m about to Google nail biting.
Any thoughts, either on the nail biting, or ways of ending the conflict? I�m
sure I am missing something really obvious.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle
Robin:
I have no experience in this, but was wondering something. Have you discussed with your husband how he would feel if you made a comment to him every time you caught him chewing his cheek. If it is something that he has always done, and it appears that it did not escalate into any other obsessive behavior, why does he think that it will happen with Jayn? I don't know if this will help, but may be areas of discussion between you two.
As for the nail problem, let me know if you find anything. My 6yo son does not bite, but picks his nails. Has done so on several occasions to the point of them bleeding. I have treated them and informed him that if he would let me clip them, it would not happen. But he still picks. Does not bother me, as it is one more thing that he can do for himself. It is just annoying to be scratched my raggedy toes and fingers. OUCH!!
Michelle in FL
Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
Dh and I are having an ongoing conflict about Jayn(4.5) chewing the inside
of her cheek, and biting her finger and toenails. His response is to mention
it to her pretty much whenever he notices her doing it, which I think is
counterproductive � he is not saying �don�t do it� or being angry, but is
clearly disapproving when he says �Are you chewing your �..�. Mine is to say
let�s reduce the stress in her life as much as possible, and have tried
suggesting that he shouldn�t be saying anything to her. Oops.
I should add that dh chews his cheeks and claims to have �always� done so. I
used to bite my nails, but now only do so if one of them is cracked and
catching on stuff.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have no experience in this, but was wondering something. Have you discussed with your husband how he would feel if you made a comment to him every time you caught him chewing his cheek. If it is something that he has always done, and it appears that it did not escalate into any other obsessive behavior, why does he think that it will happen with Jayn? I don't know if this will help, but may be areas of discussion between you two.
As for the nail problem, let me know if you find anything. My 6yo son does not bite, but picks his nails. Has done so on several occasions to the point of them bleeding. I have treated them and informed him that if he would let me clip them, it would not happen. But he still picks. Does not bother me, as it is one more thing that he can do for himself. It is just annoying to be scratched my raggedy toes and fingers. OUCH!!
Michelle in FL
Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
Dh and I are having an ongoing conflict about Jayn(4.5) chewing the inside
of her cheek, and biting her finger and toenails. His response is to mention
it to her pretty much whenever he notices her doing it, which I think is
counterproductive � he is not saying �don�t do it� or being angry, but is
clearly disapproving when he says �Are you chewing your �..�. Mine is to say
let�s reduce the stress in her life as much as possible, and have tried
suggesting that he shouldn�t be saying anything to her. Oops.
I should add that dh chews his cheeks and claims to have �always� done so. I
used to bite my nails, but now only do so if one of them is cracked and
catching on stuff.
---------------------------------
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Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrea Burlingame
My four year old went through a spell of really intense nail biting, even
making her fingers bleed, and this upset me alot. I would verbally stop her
many times during the day, and she took to hiding to do it. And she would
do it at night. Also, she sometimes seemed to be doing it to get my
attention. Then, one day in the car, I looked in the rear view mirror and
saw her biting her nails. She saw me "see" her. For some reason, I decided
to do nothing. I didn't say a word, but went back to driving along and
humming the song I was humming. Well, this was just too much for her! She
started doing it more vigorously when she saw me glance back at her. Then
she said, "Mommy, didn't you see me biting my nails?" I said, "MmmHmmm...I
did." Really matter of factly. Then, she said, "Mommy, I'm biting them
alot." I said, "Oh." She said, "But Mommy, I'm REALLY biting them REALLY
short!" I said, "I believe you." So she says, "But Mommy, why aren't you
worried about it?" And I don't know where I came up with this, but from
somewhere deep inside I decided to let her choose to chew her nails. She
already heard my countless lectures and stories about my brother's really
ugly fingernails, because he bit his nails so much as a kid and young man.
She had all the information, and it was clearly not something I could
control...nor did I want to anymore. I said to her, "Honey, you already
know how I feel about your nail biting. It bothers me to see your pretty
hands all chewed up, and I have been worrying about all sorts of things that
could happen because of it. I don't think that saying anything more about
it will help. Besides, those are your fingers and they are on your body.
I've told you what I know about it and why I don't bite my nails, but you
have to decide what you are going to do. I'm not going to bother you about
it anymore." She didn't say a thing, but I could see the wheels turning in
her head. She was in control. And, I didn't even bother to hope that she
would stop. I just quit trying to make her stop and I quit worrying that I
was somehow a bad parent because she was chewing her nails up. But a few
days later I noticed her hands and her nails had obviously not been chewed
in awhile. I didn't say anything and later that day, she said, "Hey Mommy!
I haven't been biting my nails! I guess since you haven't been saying
anything to me, I forgot about doing it!" She was so pleased with herself.
She hasn't chewed them since.
This was just my experience, but I hope it might help you!
Warmly,
Andrea
making her fingers bleed, and this upset me alot. I would verbally stop her
many times during the day, and she took to hiding to do it. And she would
do it at night. Also, she sometimes seemed to be doing it to get my
attention. Then, one day in the car, I looked in the rear view mirror and
saw her biting her nails. She saw me "see" her. For some reason, I decided
to do nothing. I didn't say a word, but went back to driving along and
humming the song I was humming. Well, this was just too much for her! She
started doing it more vigorously when she saw me glance back at her. Then
she said, "Mommy, didn't you see me biting my nails?" I said, "MmmHmmm...I
did." Really matter of factly. Then, she said, "Mommy, I'm biting them
alot." I said, "Oh." She said, "But Mommy, I'm REALLY biting them REALLY
short!" I said, "I believe you." So she says, "But Mommy, why aren't you
worried about it?" And I don't know where I came up with this, but from
somewhere deep inside I decided to let her choose to chew her nails. She
already heard my countless lectures and stories about my brother's really
ugly fingernails, because he bit his nails so much as a kid and young man.
She had all the information, and it was clearly not something I could
control...nor did I want to anymore. I said to her, "Honey, you already
know how I feel about your nail biting. It bothers me to see your pretty
hands all chewed up, and I have been worrying about all sorts of things that
could happen because of it. I don't think that saying anything more about
it will help. Besides, those are your fingers and they are on your body.
I've told you what I know about it and why I don't bite my nails, but you
have to decide what you are going to do. I'm not going to bother you about
it anymore." She didn't say a thing, but I could see the wheels turning in
her head. She was in control. And, I didn't even bother to hope that she
would stop. I just quit trying to make her stop and I quit worrying that I
was somehow a bad parent because she was chewing her nails up. But a few
days later I noticed her hands and her nails had obviously not been chewed
in awhile. I didn't say anything and later that day, she said, "Hey Mommy!
I haven't been biting my nails! I guess since you haven't been saying
anything to me, I forgot about doing it!" She was so pleased with herself.
She hasn't chewed them since.
This was just my experience, but I hope it might help you!
Warmly,
Andrea
Dana Matt
--- Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
traffic (that's a trick ;) or when I watch scary
movies. It is obviously a stress-release. But so
what? Why would her personal stress-releaver have
anything to do with your husband?
My advice to him? Bite his tongue as well as his
cheek ;)
Dana
in Montana
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> Dh and I are having an ongoing conflict aboutI pick my toenails. I do it when I drive in bad
> Jayn(4.5) chewing the inside
> of her cheek, and biting her finger and toenails.
traffic (that's a trick ;) or when I watch scary
movies. It is obviously a stress-release. But so
what? Why would her personal stress-releaver have
anything to do with your husband?
My advice to him? Bite his tongue as well as his
cheek ;)
Dana
in Montana
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Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
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Elizabeth Hill
**
I think he is exaggerating the “problem” and that other people’s experiences
with this kind of thing have shown me that the absent minded chewing simply
migrates to something else “compulsive” seeming, like chewing hair or
clothes.**
My son had a pretty heavy duty shirt chewing habit. It was long enough ago that I don't remember when it happened and when it finally vanished, but it did finally vanish. (Five or Six?)
I was a hair chewer, which bothered my dad. So one day he just imposed a haircut on me. (I'm not recommending this.)
What you are saying about stress is what I think I've read in parenting magazines. Could you maybe find a website that has this advice and show it to your husband?
Betsy
I think he is exaggerating the “problem” and that other people’s experiences
with this kind of thing have shown me that the absent minded chewing simply
migrates to something else “compulsive” seeming, like chewing hair or
clothes.**
My son had a pretty heavy duty shirt chewing habit. It was long enough ago that I don't remember when it happened and when it finally vanished, but it did finally vanish. (Five or Six?)
I was a hair chewer, which bothered my dad. So one day he just imposed a haircut on me. (I'm not recommending this.)
What you are saying about stress is what I think I've read in parenting magazines. Could you maybe find a website that has this advice and show it to your husband?
Betsy
Robyn Coburn
<<<<What you are saying about stress is what I think I've read in parenting
magazines. Could you maybe find a website that has this advice and show it
to your husband?>>>>
I Googled and found many gentle parenting and medical sites that were
basically recommending not getting too worried and expressing the normalcy
of this behavior, and a couple of other sites that recommended putting bad
tasting stuff on her hands, which I will not do. I have forwarded a couple
of the former to dh.
I am also reassured because the level of Jayn's chewing is relatively
slight. She is not chewing to the quick or causing bleeding. In fact I
looked at her hands tonight and a couple of her fingers actually had slivers
of white showing. I think she is mostly biting off loose skin from around
her toes - which is heightened by swimming every day.
One funny (at least to me) thing is that one of the less kind websites was
saying how awful it would be if you were still biting your nails at the age
of 35 (the nip-it-in-the-bud school of parenting), while one of the medical
based "reassuring" websites said that most adults who bite their nails
usually stop at around age (you guessed it) - 35.
Robyn L. Coburn
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magazines. Could you maybe find a website that has this advice and show it
to your husband?>>>>
I Googled and found many gentle parenting and medical sites that were
basically recommending not getting too worried and expressing the normalcy
of this behavior, and a couple of other sites that recommended putting bad
tasting stuff on her hands, which I will not do. I have forwarded a couple
of the former to dh.
I am also reassured because the level of Jayn's chewing is relatively
slight. She is not chewing to the quick or causing bleeding. In fact I
looked at her hands tonight and a couple of her fingers actually had slivers
of white showing. I think she is mostly biting off loose skin from around
her toes - which is heightened by swimming every day.
One funny (at least to me) thing is that one of the less kind websites was
saying how awful it would be if you were still biting your nails at the age
of 35 (the nip-it-in-the-bud school of parenting), while one of the medical
based "reassuring" websites said that most adults who bite their nails
usually stop at around age (you guessed it) - 35.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Marjorie Kirk
Betsy wrote:
My son had a pretty heavy duty shirt chewing habit. It was long enough ago
that I don't remember when it happened and when it finally vanished, but it
did finally vanish. (Five or Six?)
MY oldest son became a serious shirt chewer at 5. He had never before
chewed or sucked on anything, besides me (;-0). I was so worried that he
must have obviously been severely stressed by something. We tried to reduce
the stress in his life while at the same time reminding him gently to stop
the chewing. The whole front of his shirt would get wet and then crusty; it
was pretty gross. Finally one day when I was brushing his teeth for him I
realized that his 6 year molars were halfway through! As soon as they
finished coming in, the chewing stopped. It recently started again, at 11.
It may not be related to teething, but it's something to consider.
Marjorie
My son had a pretty heavy duty shirt chewing habit. It was long enough ago
that I don't remember when it happened and when it finally vanished, but it
did finally vanish. (Five or Six?)
MY oldest son became a serious shirt chewer at 5. He had never before
chewed or sucked on anything, besides me (;-0). I was so worried that he
must have obviously been severely stressed by something. We tried to reduce
the stress in his life while at the same time reminding him gently to stop
the chewing. The whole front of his shirt would get wet and then crusty; it
was pretty gross. Finally one day when I was brushing his teeth for him I
realized that his 6 year molars were halfway through! As soon as they
finished coming in, the chewing stopped. It recently started again, at 11.
It may not be related to teething, but it's something to consider.
Marjorie
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/18/04 9:12:01 PM, dezigna@... writes:
<< Any thoughts, either on the nail biting, or ways of ending the conflict?
I’m
sure I am missing something really obvious. >>
Let it go. Tell him she will bite her nails anyway, but she'll get sneaky.
Nail biting is usually outgrown. Sneaky can last a lifetime.
She'll bite her nails anyway, until she outgrows it, but she'll feel bad, and
unloved, instead of neutral-to-positive.
THAT, feeling bad, is worse for digestion than bits of fingernail, and
anyway, doesn't she spit out the parts or throw them in the trash?
Maybe he's feeling the need to be more in control of his own life and that's
projecting out, oozing out, to controlling the teensy details of hers.
Maybe he used to bite his nails and hardly remembers and started biting his
cheek instead after he got in trouble?
Holly used to bite hers and she stopped. It took a few months from the time
she decided to stop until she didn't do it anymore. She paints her nails now,
and she's always aware of other people's. She noticed mine were long
yesterday, and then I broke one helping them unload the trailer after their campout
(I stayed, it was fun to have the house alone). She's not stressed about it.
She knows she's got nails because she wanted them, not because we made her or
because she was trying to "be a good girl," so I think that's another phase to
aim for. Let them be HER nails, not her dad's or yours. If he rags on her,
she might chew her nails to spite him. That's a little too much blending of
territories.
Sandra
<< Any thoughts, either on the nail biting, or ways of ending the conflict?
I’m
sure I am missing something really obvious. >>
Let it go. Tell him she will bite her nails anyway, but she'll get sneaky.
Nail biting is usually outgrown. Sneaky can last a lifetime.
She'll bite her nails anyway, until she outgrows it, but she'll feel bad, and
unloved, instead of neutral-to-positive.
THAT, feeling bad, is worse for digestion than bits of fingernail, and
anyway, doesn't she spit out the parts or throw them in the trash?
Maybe he's feeling the need to be more in control of his own life and that's
projecting out, oozing out, to controlling the teensy details of hers.
Maybe he used to bite his nails and hardly remembers and started biting his
cheek instead after he got in trouble?
Holly used to bite hers and she stopped. It took a few months from the time
she decided to stop until she didn't do it anymore. She paints her nails now,
and she's always aware of other people's. She noticed mine were long
yesterday, and then I broke one helping them unload the trailer after their campout
(I stayed, it was fun to have the house alone). She's not stressed about it.
She knows she's got nails because she wanted them, not because we made her or
because she was trying to "be a good girl," so I think that's another phase to
aim for. Let them be HER nails, not her dad's or yours. If he rags on her,
she might chew her nails to spite him. That's a little too much blending of
territories.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/18/04 10:13:01 PM, hoffmanwilson@... writes:
<< My advice to him? Bite his tongue as well as his
cheek ;)
Hey, I thought of something else. In the commentary on the extended
Fellowship of the Rings (or the first DVD, maybe), Ian McKellan who plays Gandalf said
he had asked Elijah Wood (Frodo) whether he wasn't embarrassed for his
fingernails to show so hugely close-up, because he bits them all the time. So
there were his gigantic hands, holding the ring in close-up, filling the whole
screen. He wasn't embarrassed at all. He just bites his nails. He accepts that
about himself. Lots of people bite their nails. And under the circumstances
of a hobbit undertaking that huge job, I think it should've been an actor who
bit his nails. I'd bite my nails, if I had to save the world like that. <g>
Sandra
<< My advice to him? Bite his tongue as well as his
cheek ;)
>>Oh, that's good.
Hey, I thought of something else. In the commentary on the extended
Fellowship of the Rings (or the first DVD, maybe), Ian McKellan who plays Gandalf said
he had asked Elijah Wood (Frodo) whether he wasn't embarrassed for his
fingernails to show so hugely close-up, because he bits them all the time. So
there were his gigantic hands, holding the ring in close-up, filling the whole
screen. He wasn't embarrassed at all. He just bites his nails. He accepts that
about himself. Lots of people bite their nails. And under the circumstances
of a hobbit undertaking that huge job, I think it should've been an actor who
bit his nails. I'd bite my nails, if I had to save the world like that. <g>
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/04 5:51:10 AM, mkirk@... writes:
<< Finally one day when I was brushing his teeth for him I
realized that his 6 year molars were halfway through! As soon as they
finished coming in, the chewing stopped. It recently started again, at 11.
Both Marty and Holly chewed the fronts of their shirts, or sucked them, just
a little place in the front. I figured t-shirts were cheap and didn't bug
them about it much, except to suggest "time and place" sometimes.
Sandra
<< Finally one day when I was brushing his teeth for him I
realized that his 6 year molars were halfway through! As soon as they
finished coming in, the chewing stopped. It recently started again, at 11.
>>Twelve year molar time!
Both Marty and Holly chewed the fronts of their shirts, or sucked them, just
a little place in the front. I figured t-shirts were cheap and didn't bug
them about it much, except to suggest "time and place" sometimes.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/2004 10:10:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Ian McKellan who plays Gandalf said
he had asked Elijah Wood (Frodo) whether he wasn't embarrassed for his
fingernails to show so hugely close-up, because he bits them all the time.
So
there were his gigantic hands, holding the ring in close-up, filling the
whole
screen. He wasn't embarrassed at all. He just bites his nails. He accepts
that
about himself. Lots of people bite their nails.
<<<<<
And here, I thought it was all make-up!
DAMN!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Ian McKellan who plays Gandalf said
he had asked Elijah Wood (Frodo) whether he wasn't embarrassed for his
fingernails to show so hugely close-up, because he bits them all the time.
So
there were his gigantic hands, holding the ring in close-up, filling the
whole
screen. He wasn't embarrassed at all. He just bites his nails. He accepts
that
about himself. Lots of people bite their nails.
<<<<<
And here, I thought it was all make-up!
DAMN!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
I'll stop biting my nails because the experts say I will, lol.
--aj
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> One funny (at least to me) thing is that one of the less kindwebsites was
> saying how awful it would be if you were still biting your nails atthe age
> of 35 (the nip-it-in-the-bud school of parenting), while one of themedical
> based "reassuring" websites said that most adults who bite theirnails
> usually stop at around age (you guessed it) - 35.Woo-hoo! Finally a reason to look forward to my 35 bday next month!!!
I'll stop biting my nails because the experts say I will, lol.
--aj
Jill Leggett
I am 47. I have bitten my fingernails ever since I quit sucking my
thumb at 8 years old. My parents tried everything. I have tried
everything.
I also bit my cheeks. My son pulls his hair and cracks his knuckles.
I have discovered it is caused by a nervous bowel condition. I have
digestive problems and my son has inherited them. I have Irritable
Bowel Syndrom and am managing it with my diet.
I am convinced that if you can purify the diet, the bowel problems
will clear up. Spices particularly aggravate the condition.
When my son eats cinnamon he develops a nervous habit of going "huh,
huh, huh" out loud all the time.
thumb at 8 years old. My parents tried everything. I have tried
everything.
I also bit my cheeks. My son pulls his hair and cracks his knuckles.
I have discovered it is caused by a nervous bowel condition. I have
digestive problems and my son has inherited them. I have Irritable
Bowel Syndrom and am managing it with my diet.
I am convinced that if you can purify the diet, the bowel problems
will clear up. Spices particularly aggravate the condition.
When my son eats cinnamon he develops a nervous habit of going "huh,
huh, huh" out loud all the time.
Dana Matt
> Woo-hoo! Finally a reason to look forward to my 35Hey, me too, AJ ;) Mine's on the 20th--when's yours?
> bday next month!!!
> I'll stop biting my nails because the experts say I
> will, lol.
>
> --aj
>
Dana
in Montana
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mamaaj2000
7th. Nah, nah, I'm older! ;-)
--aj, who still remembers some things from public school!
--- In [email protected], Dana Matt
<hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
--aj, who still remembers some things from public school!
--- In [email protected], Dana Matt
<hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
>
> > Woo-hoo! Finally a reason to look forward to my 35
> > bday next month!!!
> > I'll stop biting my nails because the experts say I
> > will, lol.
> >
> > --aj
> >
> Hey, me too, AJ ;) Mine's on the 20th--when's yours?
> Dana
> in Montana
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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christy_imnotred
I'm probably really late to this discussion, but I bit my nails until
college when I discovered nail files. Seems I was biting my nails to
make them smooth. I don't bite my nails now unless one gets
chipped. I will bite it until I finally get up and get a nail file
to smooth it out. Just a few weeks ago I lay in bed biting one of my
nails down to the quick because I didn't feel like getting out of bed
to get a nail file. Will your daughter let you file them? It makes
a ton of difference to me.
Christy
college when I discovered nail files. Seems I was biting my nails to
make them smooth. I don't bite my nails now unless one gets
chipped. I will bite it until I finally get up and get a nail file
to smooth it out. Just a few weeks ago I lay in bed biting one of my
nails down to the quick because I didn't feel like getting out of bed
to get a nail file. Will your daughter let you file them? It makes
a ton of difference to me.
Christy
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/20/04 9:33:59 AM, christy_imnotred@... writes:
<< I'm probably really late to this discussion, but I bit my nails until
college when I discovered nail files. >>
I thought of writing "get him some emery boards."
I think a good assortment of real steel nail files and several grades of
emery boards are good for anyone to have, but much nail-biting could be averted
(or not go so deep) if the sharp parts could just be controlled.
Sandra
<< I'm probably really late to this discussion, but I bit my nails until
college when I discovered nail files. >>
I thought of writing "get him some emery boards."
I think a good assortment of real steel nail files and several grades of
emery boards are good for anyone to have, but much nail-biting could be averted
(or not go so deep) if the sharp parts could just be controlled.
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
Thanks to everyone for the pretty much unanimous response to help James feel
better about Jayn's nail biting (since I was already ok about it). I have
forwarded several representative emails to him to look at.
I realized that I have been doing a lot of posting over the last several
months on both this list and Basics. Some of these posts have been almost
essays. The thoughts have been both a record of, and instrumental in, my own
spiritual growth as an Unschooling parent. Everyone in our little world has
had the opportunity to see these posts, with the exception of poor James!
So, inspired to do so by the discussion here about email communications, I
forwarded a bunch of these things to him last night.
This morning I was awoken by James sitting by me on my side of the bed, very
enthused and affected by what he had just read, and determined to work even
harder himself to live by Principles and release his desire to control. He
also gained a new understanding of why sometimes I seem to spend a long time
on my lists! It was really great.
Robyn L. Coburn
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better about Jayn's nail biting (since I was already ok about it). I have
forwarded several representative emails to him to look at.
I realized that I have been doing a lot of posting over the last several
months on both this list and Basics. Some of these posts have been almost
essays. The thoughts have been both a record of, and instrumental in, my own
spiritual growth as an Unschooling parent. Everyone in our little world has
had the opportunity to see these posts, with the exception of poor James!
So, inspired to do so by the discussion here about email communications, I
forwarded a bunch of these things to him last night.
This morning I was awoken by James sitting by me on my side of the bed, very
enthused and affected by what he had just read, and determined to work even
harder himself to live by Principles and release his desire to control. He
also gained a new understanding of why sometimes I seem to spend a long time
on my lists! It was really great.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Aimee
(Did I mention
he gets very angry if anyone interrupts him while he
is speaking, so there
is no addressing each point as it comes up. Nor does
he accept me wanting to
walk away from an argument, even if it so I can cool
off.)>>
Robyn, I just wanted to tell you that I am like your
husband, and you are like my husband, in that regard.
He needs to get it all out, together, because they are
all interconnected in his mind, if he IS anything like
me, that is.
It's a whole thought, and interrupting him may make
him feel like you're not open to listening to his
ideas.
Also, beware that if you think responding to him using
pure logic is going to change his mind, think again!
lol
And if the very foundation of what he is saying, is
really wrong, he's going to be angry at first when he
finds out!
Try to attempt, if you really want to do something, to
give him an entirly different way of looking at this
situation, without connecting it to him being wrong
(which, again, if he's anything like me, will cause
him to be purely defensive, and not listen to a word
you say!).
If what you are saying really does make sense to him,
eventually, he'll go back to what he believes and see
the error of his ways, himself.
If my pov has helped you at all, and you want to talk
about this some more, feel free to email me offlist.
~Aimee
he gets very angry if anyone interrupts him while he
is speaking, so there
is no addressing each point as it comes up. Nor does
he accept me wanting to
walk away from an argument, even if it so I can cool
off.)>>
Robyn, I just wanted to tell you that I am like your
husband, and you are like my husband, in that regard.
He needs to get it all out, together, because they are
all interconnected in his mind, if he IS anything like
me, that is.
It's a whole thought, and interrupting him may make
him feel like you're not open to listening to his
ideas.
Also, beware that if you think responding to him using
pure logic is going to change his mind, think again!
lol
And if the very foundation of what he is saying, is
really wrong, he's going to be angry at first when he
finds out!
Try to attempt, if you really want to do something, to
give him an entirly different way of looking at this
situation, without connecting it to him being wrong
(which, again, if he's anything like me, will cause
him to be purely defensive, and not listen to a word
you say!).
If what you are saying really does make sense to him,
eventually, he'll go back to what he believes and see
the error of his ways, himself.
If my pov has helped you at all, and you want to talk
about this some more, feel free to email me offlist.
~Aimee
pam sorooshian
On Jul 21, 2004, at 8:31 AM, Aimee wrote:
before I'm finished. I have to say the whole thing, sometimes, in order
for the logic to make sense to me. And sometimes that first thing, that
you thought was wrong, is justified in something I'm about to say, but
you (whomever) interrupt before I get to explain it. Why not listen to
the whole "thing" - which is how what I'm saying is formulated in my
head - before saying, "Okay, I understand your reasoning and I want to
talk more about that first thing you said because your conclusions seem
to me to result from that." Your answer is that listening through the
rest of what I say is a waste of time if the first assumption was
wrong. But what comes across to ME is you not listening to me, not
being willing to listen, that you're jumping on the very first thing I
say as being wrong and then, at best, just barely tolerating me
continuing. It would make me a lot happier if you'd listen with an
open-mind, suspend disbelief about that first thing for as long as it
takes me to make my case. I mean, is your time so precious that you
can't waste it listening to me go off on what MIGHT (if you're right
and I'm wrong) be a tangent for a few minutes? Do we have to discuss
things YOUR way - agreeing on just one statement at a time and not
going on until we've agreed? Are we in this relationship together in
order to have the most "efficient" discussions? Isn't it more important
that we both get to feel fully "heard?"
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> He needs to get it all out, together, because they areI am kind of like that - and it kind of bugs me when people interrupt
> all interconnected in his mind, if he IS anything like
> me, that is.
>
before I'm finished. I have to say the whole thing, sometimes, in order
for the logic to make sense to me. And sometimes that first thing, that
you thought was wrong, is justified in something I'm about to say, but
you (whomever) interrupt before I get to explain it. Why not listen to
the whole "thing" - which is how what I'm saying is formulated in my
head - before saying, "Okay, I understand your reasoning and I want to
talk more about that first thing you said because your conclusions seem
to me to result from that." Your answer is that listening through the
rest of what I say is a waste of time if the first assumption was
wrong. But what comes across to ME is you not listening to me, not
being willing to listen, that you're jumping on the very first thing I
say as being wrong and then, at best, just barely tolerating me
continuing. It would make me a lot happier if you'd listen with an
open-mind, suspend disbelief about that first thing for as long as it
takes me to make my case. I mean, is your time so precious that you
can't waste it listening to me go off on what MIGHT (if you're right
and I'm wrong) be a tangent for a few minutes? Do we have to discuss
things YOUR way - agreeing on just one statement at a time and not
going on until we've agreed? Are we in this relationship together in
order to have the most "efficient" discussions? Isn't it more important
that we both get to feel fully "heard?"
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Elizabeth Hill
** Try to attempt, if you really want to do something, to
give him an entirly different way of looking at this
situation, without connecting it to him being wrong
(which, again, if he's anything like me, will cause
him to be purely defensive, and not listen to a word
you say!). **
Hi, Aimee --
This sounds like excellent advice, but I am not sure I could implement
it without seeing an example.
(A hypothetical example is fine for illustration, if no one minds me
bending the rule about keeping it real here.)
Betsy
give him an entirly different way of looking at this
situation, without connecting it to him being wrong
(which, again, if he's anything like me, will cause
him to be purely defensive, and not listen to a word
you say!). **
Hi, Aimee --
This sounds like excellent advice, but I am not sure I could implement
it without seeing an example.
(A hypothetical example is fine for illustration, if no one minds me
bending the rule about keeping it real here.)
Betsy
Robyn Coburn
<<<<I am kind of like that - and it kind of bugs me when people interrupt
before I'm finished. I have to say the whole thing, sometimes, in order
for the logic to make sense to me. And sometimes that first thing, that
you thought was wrong, is justified in something I'm about to say, but
you (whomever) interrupt before I get to explain it. >>>
Pam, you are right, and often if I can manage to hold on, he will come back
around to a whole different way of looking in the course of the lecture.
The problem with metaphors or analogies is that sometimes they aren't
accurate.
In the metaphor I wrote he says "The sky is red", but what is actually much
harder is when he is saying something like:
"You think that I..."
"You said that ....."
"I thought you were going to...."
...all of which sound like unjust accusations to me when I don't think they
are true. In those cases it is really hard not to bite at once and say "No I
don't" etc. It is hard to stand still for a long critical diatribe, when
saying "No I didn't" should just stop it. Except it doesn't.
Progress not perfection.
Robyn L. Coburn
Isn't it more important
that we both get to feel fully "heard?"
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
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before I'm finished. I have to say the whole thing, sometimes, in order
for the logic to make sense to me. And sometimes that first thing, that
you thought was wrong, is justified in something I'm about to say, but
you (whomever) interrupt before I get to explain it. >>>
Pam, you are right, and often if I can manage to hold on, he will come back
around to a whole different way of looking in the course of the lecture.
The problem with metaphors or analogies is that sometimes they aren't
accurate.
In the metaphor I wrote he says "The sky is red", but what is actually much
harder is when he is saying something like:
"You think that I..."
"You said that ....."
"I thought you were going to...."
...all of which sound like unjust accusations to me when I don't think they
are true. In those cases it is really hard not to bite at once and say "No I
don't" etc. It is hard to stand still for a long critical diatribe, when
saying "No I didn't" should just stop it. Except it doesn't.
Progress not perfection.
Robyn L. Coburn
Isn't it more important
that we both get to feel fully "heard?"
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
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Aimee
<<Hi, Aimee --
This sounds like excellent advice, but I am not sure I
could implement
it without seeing an example.
(A hypothetical example is fine for illustration, if
no one minds me
bending the rule about keeping it real here.)
Betsy
This happened the other day.
I tell my husband that I'm mad that he didn't tell me
something ( he fixed the front brakes, not the back. I
assumed he meant all of them, because that is what we
discussed doing, before he had them fixed. Why is
that something he didn't tell me? ARGH.)
He'll tell me I shouldn't be mad, because he didn't
mean to not tell me, didn't know that I didn't know,
etc.
If he would just accept the fact that I was mad, and
acknowledge that, I wouldn't be angry anymore. But,
no, he has to tell me what I should and shouldn't do,
I shouldn't be angry, and even tho I know he's right,
that what he is saying is entirely logical, makes
sense, I still get defensive.
I need the process, and he needs the issue to be over
already. So, he goes straight to the end of the line,
and doesn't realize, I have a hard time doing that!
(this is a classic)
I talk to him about a problem I have. Ok, right
away, he's giving me a solution to my problem. And I
would've gotten there, eventually, what I needed to do
was talk to him about it, until I got there myself.
But when he does it for me, I can't go thru the
process myself, and learn on the way. If there was
understanding there, for myself, I just missed it!
lol
This is pertinent to unschooling, btw. Do you give
your kid the answer, yah, sometimes, and sometimes
that's enough for me too, but sometimes, the best
thing for the kid to do is get to the answer via their
own process.
If you don't ignore what you're kid needs, aka the
process, why is it ok to do it to adults?
Anyway, the only solution I have now is to be clear
with him what I need. If it's process, I warn him!
lol If he can't handle it right now, I respect that.
~Aimee
This sounds like excellent advice, but I am not sure I
could implement
it without seeing an example.
(A hypothetical example is fine for illustration, if
no one minds me
bending the rule about keeping it real here.)
Betsy
>>Oy, ok, I'll try. How about I use a real example.
This happened the other day.
I tell my husband that I'm mad that he didn't tell me
something ( he fixed the front brakes, not the back. I
assumed he meant all of them, because that is what we
discussed doing, before he had them fixed. Why is
that something he didn't tell me? ARGH.)
He'll tell me I shouldn't be mad, because he didn't
mean to not tell me, didn't know that I didn't know,
etc.
If he would just accept the fact that I was mad, and
acknowledge that, I wouldn't be angry anymore. But,
no, he has to tell me what I should and shouldn't do,
I shouldn't be angry, and even tho I know he's right,
that what he is saying is entirely logical, makes
sense, I still get defensive.
I need the process, and he needs the issue to be over
already. So, he goes straight to the end of the line,
and doesn't realize, I have a hard time doing that!
(this is a classic)
I talk to him about a problem I have. Ok, right
away, he's giving me a solution to my problem. And I
would've gotten there, eventually, what I needed to do
was talk to him about it, until I got there myself.
But when he does it for me, I can't go thru the
process myself, and learn on the way. If there was
understanding there, for myself, I just missed it!
lol
This is pertinent to unschooling, btw. Do you give
your kid the answer, yah, sometimes, and sometimes
that's enough for me too, but sometimes, the best
thing for the kid to do is get to the answer via their
own process.
If you don't ignore what you're kid needs, aka the
process, why is it ok to do it to adults?
Anyway, the only solution I have now is to be clear
with him what I need. If it's process, I warn him!
lol If he can't handle it right now, I respect that.
~Aimee
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/22/04 8:03:38 AM, aimeel73@... writes:
<< If you don't ignore what you're kid needs, aka the
process, why is it ok to do it to adults? >>
My kids are learning to live in the world, learning to handle money, learning
to take care of their stuff, learning to get along with others. Each of them
will learn it differently, and some will be better at some aspects than
others.
My husband is living in the world, handles money, takes care of his stuff,
and gets along with others. I help him. We're partners.
Our van is squeaking in the back. He hates to spend money. At some point it
will be compromise-day (maybe when I'm out of town and not driving it
anyway), and it will go in the shop.
Neither of us should be emotionally needy about the details of what is fixed.
He will be a little traumatized about the cost. I will be cranky if it's
not fixed well, but it's just a car repair. It's not a learning situation for
us. We're not going to fix it ourselves because we don't know how and we don't
have the tools for brake or wheel stuff.
If one of my kids was paying for his own first car repair I would be willing
to help him discuss at length how to chose a garage, looking up that part of
the car to show him how it works, and the names for different parts, and the
liklihood of what and how on his own model of car.
I think it's one thing to help your spouse understand things. It's another
to treat your spouse like you would treat a ten year old having one of her
first emotional crises.
Sandra
<< If you don't ignore what you're kid needs, aka the
process, why is it ok to do it to adults? >>
My kids are learning to live in the world, learning to handle money, learning
to take care of their stuff, learning to get along with others. Each of them
will learn it differently, and some will be better at some aspects than
others.
My husband is living in the world, handles money, takes care of his stuff,
and gets along with others. I help him. We're partners.
Our van is squeaking in the back. He hates to spend money. At some point it
will be compromise-day (maybe when I'm out of town and not driving it
anyway), and it will go in the shop.
Neither of us should be emotionally needy about the details of what is fixed.
He will be a little traumatized about the cost. I will be cranky if it's
not fixed well, but it's just a car repair. It's not a learning situation for
us. We're not going to fix it ourselves because we don't know how and we don't
have the tools for brake or wheel stuff.
If one of my kids was paying for his own first car repair I would be willing
to help him discuss at length how to chose a garage, looking up that part of
the car to show him how it works, and the names for different parts, and the
liklihood of what and how on his own model of car.
I think it's one thing to help your spouse understand things. It's another
to treat your spouse like you would treat a ten year old having one of her
first emotional crises.
Sandra
Kelly Muzyczka
>If he would just accept the fact that I was mad, andAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH
>acknowledge that, I wouldn't be angry anymore. But,
>no, he has to tell me what I should and shouldn't do,
>I shouldn't be angry, and even tho I know he's right,
>that what he is saying is entirely logical, makes
>sense, I still get defensive.
YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!
Sadly, I am so glad I am not the only one who lives with this!
Kelly
Kelly Muzyczka
>I think it's one thing to help your spouse understand things. It's anotherBut I don't think that's what was said. I think the point is, it's hard to
>to treat your spouse like you would treat a ten year old having one of her
>first emotional crises.
>
>Sandra
live with someone who is trying to "disallow" your emotional process.
In the example you gave, about your car, it's clear you and Keith keep each
other's emotional issues in mind. You don't get as bent out of shape about
repairs happening promptly because you respect his issues about money.
You COULD tell him to get over it, it's just money and the work needs to be
done. You COULD go do it, say "Gee, sorry honey, but you knew the work
needed to be done, the money was going to get spent anyway." And so on.
Respecting your partner's (or your kid's) emotional process is not the same
thing as treating them like a "ten year old having one of her first
emotional crises."
Kelly
Aimee
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH
YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!
Sadly, I am so glad I am not the only one who lives
with this!
Kelly >>
Sadly, it doesn't help anymore that there are other
people out there like me! lol It's still hard
sometimes. But, really, most of the time it works out
fine, after ten years, lol, we've learned a lot.
But, every once in a while, if we are both in a bad
mood and are just not smart enough to realize it, the
fight. Doesn't get very far anymore, tho, cause, it
feels so wierd, we recognize pretty quickly it's not
worth it.
I'm getting the back brakes done today. lol
~Aimee
YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!
Sadly, I am so glad I am not the only one who lives
with this!
Kelly >>
Sadly, it doesn't help anymore that there are other
people out there like me! lol It's still hard
sometimes. But, really, most of the time it works out
fine, after ten years, lol, we've learned a lot.
But, every once in a while, if we are both in a bad
mood and are just not smart enough to realize it, the
fight. Doesn't get very far anymore, tho, cause, it
feels so wierd, we recognize pretty quickly it's not
worth it.
I'm getting the back brakes done today. lol
~Aimee
Elizabeth Hill
** I need the process, and he needs the issue to be over
already. So, he goes straight to the end of the line,
and doesn't realize, I have a hard time doing that!**
Heh. I can totally relate.
I usually have to deconstruct something three or four times (outloud)
before it can stop bothering me. But if we've covered the ground once,
my husband thinks I'm badgering him, even if I'm speaking in a pleasant
tone of voice and not using any loaded language. (I can see his point,
now as I type this, but when I'm in the moment I really need to work
thru stuff verbally. It's like a compulsion. I guess I need a pet that
I can talk to. Or a journal.)
** I talk to him about a problem I have. Ok, right
away, he's giving me a solution to my problem.**
Yup, many women hate this, but many men do it. Most male-female
communication books will suggest that the guy try not "fixing" but just
listening.
** This is pertinent to unschooling, btw. Do you give
your kid the answer, yah, sometimes, and sometimes
that's enough for me too, but sometimes, the best
thing for the kid to do is get to the answer via their
own process. **
Isn't that the Socratic method?
** Anyway, the only solution I have now is to be clear
with him what I need. If it's process, I warn him!
lol If he can't handle it right now, I respect that. **
Yes!
Betsy
already. So, he goes straight to the end of the line,
and doesn't realize, I have a hard time doing that!**
Heh. I can totally relate.
I usually have to deconstruct something three or four times (outloud)
before it can stop bothering me. But if we've covered the ground once,
my husband thinks I'm badgering him, even if I'm speaking in a pleasant
tone of voice and not using any loaded language. (I can see his point,
now as I type this, but when I'm in the moment I really need to work
thru stuff verbally. It's like a compulsion. I guess I need a pet that
I can talk to. Or a journal.)
** I talk to him about a problem I have. Ok, right
away, he's giving me a solution to my problem.**
Yup, many women hate this, but many men do it. Most male-female
communication books will suggest that the guy try not "fixing" but just
listening.
** This is pertinent to unschooling, btw. Do you give
your kid the answer, yah, sometimes, and sometimes
that's enough for me too, but sometimes, the best
thing for the kid to do is get to the answer via their
own process. **
Isn't that the Socratic method?
** Anyway, the only solution I have now is to be clear
with him what I need. If it's process, I warn him!
lol If he can't handle it right now, I respect that. **
Yes!
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/2004 2:40:43 PM Central Standard Time,
vleggett@... writes:
When my son eats cinnamon he develops a nervous habit of going "huh,
huh, huh" out loud all the time.
~~~
Pulling hair and cracking knuckles by themselves I wouldn't worry about.
But when you mentioned a verbal habit like this combined with the others, I
thought of Tourette Syndrome. You might want to check out
_http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com/_ (http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com/) .
I don't know anything about spices and bowels and all that, but I know about
TS.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vleggett@... writes:
When my son eats cinnamon he develops a nervous habit of going "huh,
huh, huh" out loud all the time.
~~~
Pulling hair and cracking knuckles by themselves I wouldn't worry about.
But when you mentioned a verbal habit like this combined with the others, I
thought of Tourette Syndrome. You might want to check out
_http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com/_ (http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com/) .
I don't know anything about spices and bowels and all that, but I know about
TS.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
eriksmama2001
When I was breastfeeding, my baby had increased gas pains and burping
when I ate cinnamon. He outgrew it eventually. Evidently, cinnamon is
upsetting to some breastfed babies according to La Leche. We were on
a very resticted elimination diet so I was quite sure what were the
culprit foods.
I don't know about behavioral issues though. You might check the
Feingold diet. It has a comprehensive list of foods that do alter
many children's behavior. We basically follow that to avoid the
artifical colors and preservatives for health reasons.
Pat
when I ate cinnamon. He outgrew it eventually. Evidently, cinnamon is
upsetting to some breastfed babies according to La Leche. We were on
a very resticted elimination diet so I was quite sure what were the
culprit foods.
I don't know about behavioral issues though. You might check the
Feingold diet. It has a comprehensive list of foods that do alter
many children's behavior. We basically follow that to avoid the
artifical colors and preservatives for health reasons.
Pat
--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/19/2004 2:40:43 PM Central Standard Time,
> vleggett@1... writes:
>
> When my son eats cinnamon he develops a nervous habit of
going "huh,
> huh, huh" out loud all the time.
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> Pulling hair and cracking knuckles by themselves I wouldn't worry
about.
> But when you mentioned a verbal habit like this combined with the
others, I
> thought of Tourette Syndrome. You might want to check out
> _http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com/_
(http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com/) .
>
> I don't know anything about spices and bowels and all that, but I
know about
> TS.
>
> Karen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]