Child abuse
Julie Bogart
Keeping details oblique...
What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit (slugged, pushed down stairs,
punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage to report them?
Julie B
What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit (slugged, pushed down stairs,
punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage to report them?
Julie B
Faith Pickell
Are there physical bruises and such on her that can be seen? If so, I
would call the police or social services right away. That way they can
see the evidence and get her out of there. Assuming that she will
admit it once she is out of earshot of her parents. Unfortunately, if
she doesn't have the visible signs and still won't admit it, it could
make the abuse that much worse. But, if you know for sure and can be
witness to it, especially when the police are there, it may help her to
feel safer and open up about the abuse.
I wouldn't not do something. Especially if the abuse got so bad she
was hospitalized or died from it. I would personally feel horrible if I
didn't speak up about it. This is an innocent child who deserves some
protection and is obviously not getting it at home.
Faith
would call the police or social services right away. That way they can
see the evidence and get her out of there. Assuming that she will
admit it once she is out of earshot of her parents. Unfortunately, if
she doesn't have the visible signs and still won't admit it, it could
make the abuse that much worse. But, if you know for sure and can be
witness to it, especially when the police are there, it may help her to
feel safer and open up about the abuse.
I wouldn't not do something. Especially if the abuse got so bad she
was hospitalized or died from it. I would personally feel horrible if I
didn't speak up about it. This is an innocent child who deserves some
protection and is obviously not getting it at home.
Faith
On Friday, July 16, 2004, at 08:24 AM, Julie Bogart wrote:
> Keeping details oblique...
>
> What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit
> (slugged, pushed down stairs,
> punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage
> to report them?
>
> Julie B
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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joylyn
You should report them. I'm a manditory reporter, which means that I
have to report if I suspect abuse. It takes away the decision, which is
sometimes good and sometimes bad. But I would call on this one, regardless.
Joylyn
Julie Bogart wrote:
have to report if I suspect abuse. It takes away the decision, which is
sometimes good and sometimes bad. But I would call on this one, regardless.
Joylyn
Julie Bogart wrote:
> Keeping details oblique...[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit
> (slugged, pushed down stairs,
> punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage
> to report them?
>
> Julie B
>
>
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Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], Faith Pickell <panda@x> wrote:
If so, I
so tha she could at least hear the voice and procedures and know what they will do for
her. It still wasn't enough to get her over that hump.
Assuming that she will
But, if you know for sure and can be
hate the thought of doing nothing. Do you think giving a time frame - like if we see any
evidence, we'll call for you to protect you.
I'm pretty worried about her. She's acting out in lots of dangerous ways... :( So sad.
Julie B
> Are there physical bruises and such on her that can be seen?Not right now.
If so, I
> would call the police or social services right away. That way they canWe did a three-way call with her and social services last night (she remained anonymous)
> see the evidence and get her out of there.
so tha she could at least hear the voice and procedures and know what they will do for
her. It still wasn't enough to get her over that hump.
Assuming that she will
> admit it once she is out of earshot of her parents. Unfortunately, ifThat's what I'm afraid of.
> she doesn't have the visible signs and still won't admit it, it could
> make the abuse that much worse.
But, if you know for sure and can be
> witness to it, especially when the police are there, it may help her toOkay.
> feel safer and open up about the abuse.
>This is what I'm feeling this a.m. And there are much smaller children in the home so I
> I wouldn't not do something. Especially if the abuse got so bad she
> was hospitalized or died from it. I would personally feel horrible if I
> didn't speak up about it. This is an innocent child who deserves some
> protection and is obviously not getting it at home.
hate the thought of doing nothing. Do you think giving a time frame - like if we see any
evidence, we'll call for you to protect you.
I'm pretty worried about her. She's acting out in lots of dangerous ways... :( So sad.
Julie B
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
How old a teen - how solidly do you know - how likely is serious
physical injury - are you a mandated reporter in your state -
how are you balancing "right" (stopping the physical abuse
versus improving the overall situation for the teen)?
physical injury - are you a mandated reporter in your state -
how are you balancing "right" (stopping the physical abuse
versus improving the overall situation for the teen)?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Bogart" <julie@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 8:24 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Child abuse
| Keeping details oblique...
|
| What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit
(slugged, pushed down stairs,
| punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the
courage to report them?
|
| Julie B
|
|
|
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Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], "Nora or Devereaux Cannon"
<dcannon@n...> wrote:
how solidly do you know -
Conclusively
how likely is serious
are you a mandated reporter in your state -
What makes you a mandated reporter? Does that mean I'm not one if I don't know what
that is?
more. Otoh, she has been injured by them in the past and is currently acting out in self-
destructive ways that could be just as risky to her.
Keep talking. This is helping. I'm checking out various websites right now.
Julie B
<dcannon@n...> wrote:
> How old a teen -16
how solidly do you know -
Conclusively
how likely is serious
> physical injury -I don't know how to answer this.
are you a mandated reporter in your state -
What makes you a mandated reporter? Does that mean I'm not one if I don't know what
that is?
> how are you balancing "right" (stopping the physical abuseMy confusion is that I'm concerned if we report and she doesn't back it up, she'll suffer
> versus improving the overall situation for the teen)?
more. Otoh, she has been injured by them in the past and is currently acting out in self-
destructive ways that could be just as risky to her.
Keep talking. This is helping. I'm checking out various websites right now.
Julie B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie Bogart" <julie@b...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 8:24 AM
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Child abuse
>
>
> | Keeping details oblique...
> |
> | What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit
> (slugged, pushed down stairs,
> | punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the
> courage to report them?
> |
> | Julie B
> |
> |
> |
> | ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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> |
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J. Stauffer
<<<<What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit (slugged,
pushed down stairs,
Report them and offer the kid a place to stay.
Julie S.
pushed down stairs,
> punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage toreport them? >>>>
Report them and offer the kid a place to stay.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Bogart" <julie@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 8:24 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Child abuse
> Keeping details oblique...
>
> What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit (slugged,
pushed down stairs,
> punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage to
report them?
>
> Julie B
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
joylyn
Julie Bogart wrote:
doctor, nurse, basically anyone that sees children on a regular basis
and are more likely to notice these things. In google, type your state
name and mandated reporter child abuse and you'll find a webpage that
says what's what.
Joylyn
> --- In [email protected], "Nora or Devereaux Cannon"If you are a teacher, minister or other clergy, child care worker,
> <dcannon@n...> wrote:
> > How old a teen -
>
> 16
>
> how solidly do you know -
>
> Conclusively
>
> how likely is serious
> > physical injury -
>
> I don't know how to answer this.
>
> are you a mandated reporter in your state -
>
> What makes you a mandated reporter? Does that mean I'm not one if I
> don't know what
> that is?
doctor, nurse, basically anyone that sees children on a regular basis
and are more likely to notice these things. In google, type your state
name and mandated reporter child abuse and you'll find a webpage that
says what's what.
Joylyn
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> > how are you balancing "right" (stopping the physical abuse
> > versus improving the overall situation for the teen)?
>
> My confusion is that I'm concerned if we report and she doesn't back
> it up, she'll suffer
> more. Otoh, she has been injured by them in the past and is currently
> acting out in self-
> destructive ways that could be just as risky to her.
>
> Keep talking. This is helping. I'm checking out various websites right
> now.
>
> Julie B
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Julie Bogart" <julie@b...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 8:24 AM
> > Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Child abuse
> >
> >
> > | Keeping details oblique...
> > |
> > | What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit
> > (slugged, pushed down stairs,
> > | punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the
> > courage to report them?
> > |
> > | Julie B
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > | ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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> > ------~->
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> > | "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
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> > |
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> > http://www.unschooling.com
> > | Yahoo! Groups Links
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
>
>
>
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J. Stauffer
<<<<< What makes you a mandated reporter? Does that mean I'm not one if I
don't know what
suspected child abuse. In some states, it is just teachers, doctors,
therapists, etc..
Julie S.
don't know what
> that is?>>>>>It varies by state. In Texas, everyone is required by law to report
suspected child abuse. In some states, it is just teachers, doctors,
therapists, etc..
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Bogart" <julie@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 8:58 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Child abuse
> --- In [email protected], "Nora or Devereaux Cannon"
> <dcannon@n...> wrote:
> > How old a teen -
>
> 16
>
> how solidly do you know -
>
> Conclusively
>
> how likely is serious
> > physical injury -
>
> I don't know how to answer this.
>
> are you a mandated reporter in your state -
>
> What makes you a mandated reporter? Does that mean I'm not one if I don't
know what
> that is?
>
> > how are you balancing "right" (stopping the physical abuse
> > versus improving the overall situation for the teen)?
>
> My confusion is that I'm concerned if we report and she doesn't back it
up, she'll suffer
> more. Otoh, she has been injured by them in the past and is currently
acting out in self-
> destructive ways that could be just as risky to her.
>
> Keep talking. This is helping. I'm checking out various websites right
now.
>
> Julie B
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Julie Bogart" <julie@b...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 8:24 AM
> > Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Child abuse
> >
> >
> > | Keeping details oblique...
> > |
> > | What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit
> > (slugged, pushed down stairs,
> > | punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the
> > courage to report them?
> > |
> > | Julie B
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > | ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
> > Sponsor --------------------~-->
> > | Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
> > | Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
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> > | --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------~->
> > |
> > | "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
> > group.
> > |
> > | Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> > | Yahoo! Groups Links
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/16/2004 7:29:09 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:
What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit (slugged,
pushed down stairs,
punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage to
report them?
===============
A foster home isn't always better.
And with younger kids in the home, it would be better to help the situation
improve than to scatter them who knows where all.
If it were me, and if I knew the parents, I would talk to them. I would say
I had considered calling social services, but I wanted to make her life
better, not worse, and so I would like to just bypass them and ask the parents to
stop, now, and if that didn't seem feasible to go to counselling. I'd say its
counselling now or counselling when social services gets involved, their call.
They might then forbid the girl to hang out with me. But I think the hitting
would abate.
And if I found out it hadn't I would call social services, tell them which
date I had talked to the parent, and what the response had been, and what I
knew, and leave it at that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit (slugged,
pushed down stairs,
punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage to
report them?
===============
A foster home isn't always better.
And with younger kids in the home, it would be better to help the situation
improve than to scatter them who knows where all.
If it were me, and if I knew the parents, I would talk to them. I would say
I had considered calling social services, but I wanted to make her life
better, not worse, and so I would like to just bypass them and ask the parents to
stop, now, and if that didn't seem feasible to go to counselling. I'd say its
counselling now or counselling when social services gets involved, their call.
They might then forbid the girl to hang out with me. But I think the hitting
would abate.
And if I found out it hadn't I would call social services, tell them which
date I had talked to the parent, and what the response had been, and what I
knew, and leave it at that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
eriksmama2001
Part of the issue is that she may believe that she only
was "punished" for things that she shouldn't have done,
i.e. "deserved it". When I discussed parents hitting/spanking
children with a 16 y/o, she BELIEVED that it only happens when her
siblings don't do what they are supposed to/behave right.
This belief is the problem. It is part of the abuse.
Perhaps someone can replace this belief that no one deserves to be
hit. Maybe some family that she has known for years but who never
KNEW this was happenening, could be a source to displace this
ingrained thinking. Strangers are going to be harder to "trust" when
you haven't learned trust in one's own family.
The issue also may be fear for the younger children. What would
happen to them? When one can not protect themself, it is harder to
conceive of being able to protect others. How to stay together?
I know that having experienced abuse, although not to this degree, I
know trusting others is a difficult obsticle to changing one's
beliefs.
I found the internet was an authoritative source of information about
abuse. When I read that what I had experienced in childhood included
the whole syndrome of identifing with the aggressor and internalizing
their feelings as "my fault" it helped me to quit believing the "I
have no choice" thinking/fears. Counseling has helped me too. Is any
sort of counseling available from someone who as also experienced
this type of abuse?
The internet is easier to "trust" than people who might end up
hurting you. Perhaps you could find some useful sites for her to read
according to her age.
Once she KNOWS she doesn't deserve to be treated this way, she can
choose to change the situation. It may get worse before it gets
better, because if she is not psychologically able to speak up for
herself, she can not protect her siblings and that is a great threat
in itself.
She needs people she can trust. The longer she knows someone the more
she will be able to identify with their healthier beliefs. There
isn't an easy way to learn to trust. I am still learning at 42 y/o.
Pat
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
was "punished" for things that she shouldn't have done,
i.e. "deserved it". When I discussed parents hitting/spanking
children with a 16 y/o, she BELIEVED that it only happens when her
siblings don't do what they are supposed to/behave right.
This belief is the problem. It is part of the abuse.
Perhaps someone can replace this belief that no one deserves to be
hit. Maybe some family that she has known for years but who never
KNEW this was happenening, could be a source to displace this
ingrained thinking. Strangers are going to be harder to "trust" when
you haven't learned trust in one's own family.
The issue also may be fear for the younger children. What would
happen to them? When one can not protect themself, it is harder to
conceive of being able to protect others. How to stay together?
I know that having experienced abuse, although not to this degree, I
know trusting others is a difficult obsticle to changing one's
beliefs.
I found the internet was an authoritative source of information about
abuse. When I read that what I had experienced in childhood included
the whole syndrome of identifing with the aggressor and internalizing
their feelings as "my fault" it helped me to quit believing the "I
have no choice" thinking/fears. Counseling has helped me too. Is any
sort of counseling available from someone who as also experienced
this type of abuse?
The internet is easier to "trust" than people who might end up
hurting you. Perhaps you could find some useful sites for her to read
according to her age.
Once she KNOWS she doesn't deserve to be treated this way, she can
choose to change the situation. It may get worse before it gets
better, because if she is not psychologically able to speak up for
herself, she can not protect her siblings and that is a great threat
in itself.
She needs people she can trust. The longer she knows someone the more
she will be able to identify with their healthier beliefs. There
isn't an easy way to learn to trust. I am still learning at 42 y/o.
Pat
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
> Keeping details oblique...(slugged, pushed down stairs,
>
> What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit
> punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have thecourage to report them?
>
> Julie B
eriksmama2001
Also, people do not WANT to hurt their children, they do not have
healthier skills/tools to deal with their own problems. Perhaps
suggesting counseling sources to the parents. I am sure DSS has
resources for parents. Perhaps a social worker could help the family
utilize the resources that are available financially, psychologically
or whatever exacerbates the unhealthy perceptions of the parents.
pat
healthier skills/tools to deal with their own problems. Perhaps
suggesting counseling sources to the parents. I am sure DSS has
resources for parents. Perhaps a social worker could help the family
utilize the resources that are available financially, psychologically
or whatever exacerbates the unhealthy perceptions of the parents.
pat
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 7/16/2004 7:29:09 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> julie@b... writes:
> What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit
(slugged,
> pushed down stairs,
> punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the
courage to
> report them?
> ===============
>
> A foster home isn't always better.
>
> And with younger kids in the home, it would be better to help the
situation
> improve than to scatter them who knows where all.
>
> If it were me, and if I knew the parents, I would talk to them. I
would say
> I had considered calling social services, but I wanted to make her
life
> better, not worse, and so I would like to just bypass them and ask
the parents to
> stop, now, and if that didn't seem feasible to go to counselling.
I'd say its
> counselling now or counselling when social services gets involved,
their call.
>
>
> They might then forbid the girl to hang out with me. But I think
the hitting
> would abate.
>
> And if I found out it hadn't I would call social services, tell
them which
> date I had talked to the parent, and what the response had been,
and what I
> knew, and leave it at that.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** We did a three-way call with her and social services last night (she
remained anonymous)
so tha she could at least hear the voice and procedures and know what
they will do for
her. It still wasn't enough to get her over that hump.**
Do you think her biggest concern is getting tossed into foster care? Or
is she more worried that the parental violence will escalate if she
makes a report?
I don't know what her situation is and if their are other family members
she can live with.
Are her parents sober when they hit her? Or are there substance abuse
issues making this ugly situation worse. (It seems like there might be
extra tips and extra resources if this is a drinking or drugging problem.)
**She's acting out in lots of dangerous ways... :( So sad.**
Can she find additional counseling, on top of what she's getting from
you, from a peer counselor who was a wild teen, or from counselors at
school? (OK, the school counselors are mandatory reporters, so that may
not be what she wants to do. I was just thinking that she needs some
good advice and may need it to be more than "confidential", she may need
it to be "invisible" to her parents.
Betsy
remained anonymous)
so tha she could at least hear the voice and procedures and know what
they will do for
her. It still wasn't enough to get her over that hump.**
Do you think her biggest concern is getting tossed into foster care? Or
is she more worried that the parental violence will escalate if she
makes a report?
I don't know what her situation is and if their are other family members
she can live with.
Are her parents sober when they hit her? Or are there substance abuse
issues making this ugly situation worse. (It seems like there might be
extra tips and extra resources if this is a drinking or drugging problem.)
**She's acting out in lots of dangerous ways... :( So sad.**
Can she find additional counseling, on top of what she's getting from
you, from a peer counselor who was a wild teen, or from counselors at
school? (OK, the school counselors are mandatory reporters, so that may
not be what she wants to do. I was just thinking that she needs some
good advice and may need it to be more than "confidential", she may need
it to be "invisible" to her parents.
Betsy
Robyn Coburn
<<<<What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit (slugged,
pushed down stairs,
punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage to
report them?>>>>
Call the police at once.
Call the 800 number for child abuse that appears on shopping trolleys.
After those, speak to the child's pastor or doctor to help counsel the
child.
Teen is still a child. Of course she doesn't have that courage. Adult women
sometimes don't have that courage for years and years.
What all the experts say, and in this I suspect they are right for once, is
do NOT approach the parents about it, and be ready for a lack of immediate
gratitude in the child. It will come later.
Robyn L. Coburn
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pushed down stairs,
punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage to
report them?>>>>
Call the police at once.
Call the 800 number for child abuse that appears on shopping trolleys.
After those, speak to the child's pastor or doctor to help counsel the
child.
Teen is still a child. Of course she doesn't have that courage. Adult women
sometimes don't have that courage for years and years.
What all the experts say, and in this I suspect they are right for once, is
do NOT approach the parents about it, and be ready for a lack of immediate
gratitude in the child. It will come later.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[email protected]
In a message dated 7/16/2004 1:52:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
What all the experts say, and in this I suspect they are right for once, is
do NOT approach the parents about it,
--------
I doubt ALL the experts have ever agreed on any one thing.
And probably their objection to not approaching the parents is a legal
liability one.
If I know an adult and I talk to the adult, no expert or social worker has
the right to tell me not to.
That's the same kind of advice followed when the woman at whichever/wherever
Walmart was spanking/beating/throwing her daughter, and people were so proud
that eight or some peole had called the police. But someone (experts be
damned) should have said "STOP IT." Or made her stop. And the other seven could
call the police or whatever chickenshit thing they wanted to do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
What all the experts say, and in this I suspect they are right for once, is
do NOT approach the parents about it,
--------
I doubt ALL the experts have ever agreed on any one thing.
And probably their objection to not approaching the parents is a legal
liability one.
If I know an adult and I talk to the adult, no expert or social worker has
the right to tell me not to.
That's the same kind of advice followed when the woman at whichever/wherever
Walmart was spanking/beating/throwing her daughter, and people were so proud
that eight or some peole had called the police. But someone (experts be
damned) should have said "STOP IT." Or made her stop. And the other seven could
call the police or whatever chickenshit thing they wanted to do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<<<What all the experts say, and in this I suspect they are right for
once, is
are fantastic.....some are criminal. The teen sees reporting the abuse as
breaking up her family. She then sees the consequences of the abuse as her
fault. Usually after the abuse, life is at least ok if not great in these
homes (until the cycle starts again). The child (and adult victims as well)
focus on that and don't want to lose the little bit of "good family" they
have.
Julie S.
once, is
> do NOT approach the parents about it, and be ready for a lack of immediateIf it comes at all. We were foster parents for years. Some foster parents
> gratitude in the child. It will come later.>>>>>>
are fantastic.....some are criminal. The teen sees reporting the abuse as
breaking up her family. She then sees the consequences of the abuse as her
fault. Usually after the abuse, life is at least ok if not great in these
homes (until the cycle starts again). The child (and adult victims as well)
focus on that and don't want to lose the little bit of "good family" they
have.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Child abuse
> <<<<What is the right thing to do if you know a teen is being hit
(slugged,
> pushed down stairs,
> punched in the face) by her parents but she doesn't have the courage to
> report them?>>>>
>
> Call the police at once.
> Call the 800 number for child abuse that appears on shopping trolleys.
>
> After those, speak to the child's pastor or doctor to help counsel the
> child.
>
> Teen is still a child. Of course she doesn't have that courage. Adult
women
> sometimes don't have that courage for years and years.
>
> What all the experts say, and in this I suspect they are right for once,
is
> do NOT approach the parents about it, and be ready for a lack of immediate
> gratitude in the child. It will come later.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 7/16/2004
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<<Walmart was spanking/beating/throwing her daughter, and people were so
proud
"chickenshit".
There is a difference between eye witnessing an assault and talking to
parents after the fact, basically saying "your child told on you."
My dad is a peace officer, my dh rides the ambulance, we listen to the
police scanner. Police get called to families over and over again on abuse.
Letting the family know that you know it is going on doesn't stop it,
doesn't make them go to counseling. It might make you feel better but it
doesn't solve the problem.
Asking a child to have the courage and power of will that most adults don't
have is asking too much. Most abused women stay exactly where they are even
though they have much more resources and control over their lives than a
teen.
Julie S.
proud
> that eight or some peole had called the police. But someone (experts beseven could
> damned) should have said "STOP IT." Or made her stop. And the other
> call the police or whatever chickenshit thing they wanted to do.>>>>>>I wouldn't characterize anything done in the aid of another as
"chickenshit".
There is a difference between eye witnessing an assault and talking to
parents after the fact, basically saying "your child told on you."
My dad is a peace officer, my dh rides the ambulance, we listen to the
police scanner. Police get called to families over and over again on abuse.
Letting the family know that you know it is going on doesn't stop it,
doesn't make them go to counseling. It might make you feel better but it
doesn't solve the problem.
Asking a child to have the courage and power of will that most adults don't
have is asking too much. Most abused women stay exactly where they are even
though they have much more resources and control over their lives than a
teen.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Child abuse
> In a message dated 7/16/2004 1:52:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> dezigna@... writes:
> What all the experts say, and in this I suspect they are right for once,
is
> do NOT approach the parents about it,
> --------
>
> I doubt ALL the experts have ever agreed on any one thing.
>
> And probably their objection to not approaching the parents is a legal
> liability one.
>
> If I know an adult and I talk to the adult, no expert or social worker has
> the right to tell me not to.
>
> That's the same kind of advice followed when the woman at
whichever/wherever
> Walmart was spanking/beating/throwing her daughter, and people were so
proud
> that eight or some peole had called the police. But someone (experts be
> damned) should have said "STOP IT." Or made her stop. And the other
seven could
> call the police or whatever chickenshit thing they wanted to do.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], "Sandra" wrote:
together. She sees our more relaxed ways as dangerous to her family. So she is pretty
restrictive still.
> <<<<<Walmart was spanking/beating/throwing her daughter, and people were soThere is no way we could approach the parents. She used to ban our daughters being
> proud
> > that eight or some peole had called the police. But someone (experts be
> > damned) should have said "STOP IT." Or made her stop. And the other
> seven could
> > call the police or whatever chickenshit thing they wanted to do.>>>>>>
together. She sees our more relaxed ways as dangerous to her family. So she is pretty
restrictive still.
--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> I wouldn't characterize anything done in the aid of another as
> "chickenshit".
Me either. I understand the desire to confront but shame is such a powerful emotion that
sometimes parents do horrible things to kids after they are shown to be "bad" parents in
public.
>
> There is a difference between eye witnessing an assault and talking to
> parents after the fact, basically saying "your child told on you."
Agreed.
>
> My dad is a peace officer, my dh rides the ambulance, we listen to the
> police scanner. Police get called to families over and over again on abuse.
> Letting the family know that you know it is going on doesn't stop it,
> doesn't make them go to counseling. It might make you feel better but it
> doesn't solve the problem.
That's the conclusion we came to today. I called.
Additionally, she was hit again today. Boyfriend called the cops. So we are finally getting
somewhere, even though I'm sure she's scared to death. :(
>
> Asking a child to have the courage and power of will that most adults don't
> have is asking too much. Most abused women stay exactly where they are even
> though they have much more resources and control over their lives than a
> teen.
That's what pushed me to call. We (dh and I) realized that it was worth it to allow this girl
the chance/dignity to report herself, but since she can't bring herself to do it, we felt we
must.
Thanks everyone for your help. It was enormously supportive.
Julie B
Robyn Coburn
<<<I doubt ALL the experts have ever agreed on any one thing.>>>>
You're right. It is not ALL, as you say.
I had been browsing online about child abuse a few weeks ago, and found a
number of websites, I guess coming primarily from medical and legal
standpoints. Those were the people who were saying that speaking to the
parents was not the best option.
They also had lengthy legal definitions as to what constitutes child abuse.
<<If I know an adult and I talk to the adult, no expert or social worker has
the right to tell me not to.>>
They seem to think it doesn't work to protect the child as well as telling
social workers does. This is not in the same league as reporting someone
because their kids are in the yard in the morning - which of course is a
hotbutton on a homeschooling list. This life threatening abuse is the real
reason social services exist.
<<<That's the same kind of advice followed when the woman at
whichever/wherever
Walmart was spanking/beating/throwing her daughter, and people were so proud
that eight or some peole had called the police. But someone (experts be
damned) should have said "STOP IT." Or made her stop. And the other seven
could
call the police or whatever chickenshit thing they wanted to do.>>>
I don't think the parents are pushing their daughter down the stairs in
front of Julie. They are waiting until they can hurt her in private. It is
not either/or. In a case of abuse isn't it saying "stop it" *if you can do
so safely* AND calling the authorities.
Also in a situation where a person is being abused, it is not like dealing
with some ordinary problem of having a disagreement or difference of
opinion. Being abused changes the way you think about yourself, your self
esteem, that issue of feeling like it is your fault as someone mentioned,
and that you (the victim) could have done something to prevent it by being
"better". The abused person is not necessarily thinking logically. Abused
children feel bad about making their father or mother disappointed in them
by reporting.
Nor does it usually start with the full blown push down the stairs, or
bloody nose. Nor does it end there.
What if Julie became aware that her neighbor's husband was beating her, but
in conversations the woman came up with all the browbeaten usual stuff to
prevent Julie from calling anyone. What if another night Julie heard a
scream, should she go over and say "Stop it", incidentally risking getting
beaten herself, or should she call the police? Why is it different when it
is a teen, and the scream is metaphorical?
Anyway this is all somewhat moot. Julie has already posted about the
conference call they made.
If fear of being called a "chickenshit" is going to stop someone from
calling the police next time, I think it is a shame. It seems likely they
wouldn't be brave enough to go up and stay "Stop it" in the parking lot
anyway.
In Julie's situation I would have called the 800 number and reported it,
because frankly if I didn't my dh would. The only problem with offering her
a place to stay is that the parents would then know where to find her. A
women's shelter, where the addresses are confidential might be a better
place.
These are some of the sites I was looking at before. Maybe there is some
helpful information there.
http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/usermanuals/foundation/index.cfm
http://www.vh.org/navigation/vh/topics/pediatric_patient_child_abuse.html
http://www.ama-assn.org/ searchable for articles, research papers etc
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 7/16/2004
You're right. It is not ALL, as you say.
I had been browsing online about child abuse a few weeks ago, and found a
number of websites, I guess coming primarily from medical and legal
standpoints. Those were the people who were saying that speaking to the
parents was not the best option.
They also had lengthy legal definitions as to what constitutes child abuse.
<<If I know an adult and I talk to the adult, no expert or social worker has
the right to tell me not to.>>
They seem to think it doesn't work to protect the child as well as telling
social workers does. This is not in the same league as reporting someone
because their kids are in the yard in the morning - which of course is a
hotbutton on a homeschooling list. This life threatening abuse is the real
reason social services exist.
<<<That's the same kind of advice followed when the woman at
whichever/wherever
Walmart was spanking/beating/throwing her daughter, and people were so proud
that eight or some peole had called the police. But someone (experts be
damned) should have said "STOP IT." Or made her stop. And the other seven
could
call the police or whatever chickenshit thing they wanted to do.>>>
I don't think the parents are pushing their daughter down the stairs in
front of Julie. They are waiting until they can hurt her in private. It is
not either/or. In a case of abuse isn't it saying "stop it" *if you can do
so safely* AND calling the authorities.
Also in a situation where a person is being abused, it is not like dealing
with some ordinary problem of having a disagreement or difference of
opinion. Being abused changes the way you think about yourself, your self
esteem, that issue of feeling like it is your fault as someone mentioned,
and that you (the victim) could have done something to prevent it by being
"better". The abused person is not necessarily thinking logically. Abused
children feel bad about making their father or mother disappointed in them
by reporting.
Nor does it usually start with the full blown push down the stairs, or
bloody nose. Nor does it end there.
What if Julie became aware that her neighbor's husband was beating her, but
in conversations the woman came up with all the browbeaten usual stuff to
prevent Julie from calling anyone. What if another night Julie heard a
scream, should she go over and say "Stop it", incidentally risking getting
beaten herself, or should she call the police? Why is it different when it
is a teen, and the scream is metaphorical?
Anyway this is all somewhat moot. Julie has already posted about the
conference call they made.
If fear of being called a "chickenshit" is going to stop someone from
calling the police next time, I think it is a shame. It seems likely they
wouldn't be brave enough to go up and stay "Stop it" in the parking lot
anyway.
In Julie's situation I would have called the 800 number and reported it,
because frankly if I didn't my dh would. The only problem with offering her
a place to stay is that the parents would then know where to find her. A
women's shelter, where the addresses are confidential might be a better
place.
These are some of the sites I was looking at before. Maybe there is some
helpful information there.
http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/usermanuals/foundation/index.cfm
http://www.vh.org/navigation/vh/topics/pediatric_patient_child_abuse.html
http://www.ama-assn.org/ searchable for articles, research papers etc
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 7/16/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/16/2004 4:33:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
Letting the family know that you know it is going on doesn't stop it,
doesn't make them go to counseling. It might make you feel better but it
doesn't solve the problem.
==================
I caused a dad to stop.
Parents were separated. I knew them both. I had a long talk with the dad
and threatened his future in the SCA first, and his visitation second, and he
was a nicer dad from then on.
The mom was nicer too, as a secondary thing. Before that, it was a cinch for
her to be nicer than the dad, because he was being a turd, but when he
started competing, she had to be nicer too.
-=-Asking a child to have the courage and power of will that most adults don't
have is asking too much. -=-
Some adults are more courageous than others.
Some children are more courageous than some adults.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
Letting the family know that you know it is going on doesn't stop it,
doesn't make them go to counseling. It might make you feel better but it
doesn't solve the problem.
==================
I caused a dad to stop.
Parents were separated. I knew them both. I had a long talk with the dad
and threatened his future in the SCA first, and his visitation second, and he
was a nicer dad from then on.
The mom was nicer too, as a secondary thing. Before that, it was a cinch for
her to be nicer than the dad, because he was being a turd, but when he
started competing, she had to be nicer too.
-=-Asking a child to have the courage and power of will that most adults don't
have is asking too much. -=-
Some adults are more courageous than others.
Some children are more courageous than some adults.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/16/2004 10:01:24 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
They seem to think it doesn't work to protect the child as well as telling
social workers does.
===========
Professional teachers are sure what we do doesn't serve achild as well as
sending them to professionals does.
Professionals will professionally assure people they're the only chance for
safety or success.
-=-This life threatening abuse is the real
reason social services exist.
-=-
I think they exist to make sure people have food and utilities first.
Welfare.
And medical services. Social workers often ensure people's access to medical
services or counselling or rehab.
-=- In a case of abuse isn't it saying "stop it" *if you can do
so safely* AND calling the authorities.
-=-
Not all social workers are bright and not all foster homes are good.
-=-What if another night Julie heard a
scream, should she go over and say "Stop it", incidentally risking getting
beaten herself, or should she call the police?-=-
In our old neighborhood I went to my neighbors one morning early (6:40 a.m.
or so) when they were yelling loud enough to hear from my house and my knock on
the door pushed the door open. There I was in the living room. I realized I
was holding baby Holly. I was really angry. They had had police come a
couple of times already. What I had heard from my house was "You WANT me to hit
you don't you? You want me to hit you?"
They had a little boy who played with Kirby and Marty. We used to keep him
sometimes.
I said "Shut the fuck up. Just stop it." I told them I could hear them
from my house, and it was early and he started in on me about me probably being
the one who had called the police on them, and I said no, I hadn't, but I was
going to be the next one. He said get out of his house. I said I was leaving
but he'd better cool it and if I heard anything else I WAS calling the police.
I went home and called Keith, who came home and talked to him for a long time.
Things got better.
Maybe it's because they knew they were wrong and didn't want to be arrested
again. Maybe it's because Keith and I werethere, and they knew we weren't
afraid of them.
The police had been called twice before (that I knew of). That hadn't made
much difference. Our going over there seemed to have more impact.
-=If fear of being called a "chickenshit" is going to stop someone from
calling the police next time, I think it is a shame. It seems likely they
wouldn't be brave enough to go up and stay "Stop it" in the parking lot
anyway.
-=-
I don't think calling the police and hoping it does some good is as brave or
immediately useful as stopping the problem before it gets worse. I do think
it's much better than doing nothing But in that parking lot story, had it been
a man striking a woman, lots of men would have tried to stop it. Because it
was a child, people were afraid to interfere.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
They seem to think it doesn't work to protect the child as well as telling
social workers does.
===========
Professional teachers are sure what we do doesn't serve achild as well as
sending them to professionals does.
Professionals will professionally assure people they're the only chance for
safety or success.
-=-This life threatening abuse is the real
reason social services exist.
-=-
I think they exist to make sure people have food and utilities first.
Welfare.
And medical services. Social workers often ensure people's access to medical
services or counselling or rehab.
-=- In a case of abuse isn't it saying "stop it" *if you can do
so safely* AND calling the authorities.
-=-
Not all social workers are bright and not all foster homes are good.
-=-What if another night Julie heard a
scream, should she go over and say "Stop it", incidentally risking getting
beaten herself, or should she call the police?-=-
In our old neighborhood I went to my neighbors one morning early (6:40 a.m.
or so) when they were yelling loud enough to hear from my house and my knock on
the door pushed the door open. There I was in the living room. I realized I
was holding baby Holly. I was really angry. They had had police come a
couple of times already. What I had heard from my house was "You WANT me to hit
you don't you? You want me to hit you?"
They had a little boy who played with Kirby and Marty. We used to keep him
sometimes.
I said "Shut the fuck up. Just stop it." I told them I could hear them
from my house, and it was early and he started in on me about me probably being
the one who had called the police on them, and I said no, I hadn't, but I was
going to be the next one. He said get out of his house. I said I was leaving
but he'd better cool it and if I heard anything else I WAS calling the police.
I went home and called Keith, who came home and talked to him for a long time.
Things got better.
Maybe it's because they knew they were wrong and didn't want to be arrested
again. Maybe it's because Keith and I werethere, and they knew we weren't
afraid of them.
The police had been called twice before (that I knew of). That hadn't made
much difference. Our going over there seemed to have more impact.
-=If fear of being called a "chickenshit" is going to stop someone from
calling the police next time, I think it is a shame. It seems likely they
wouldn't be brave enough to go up and stay "Stop it" in the parking lot
anyway.
-=-
I don't think calling the police and hoping it does some good is as brave or
immediately useful as stopping the problem before it gets worse. I do think
it's much better than doing nothing But in that parking lot story, had it been
a man striking a woman, lots of men would have tried to stop it. Because it
was a child, people were afraid to interfere.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<Not all social workers are bright and not all foster homes are good.>>>
Not all social workers are stupid, and not all foster homes are bad.
Why is that a reason not to call the police?
<<<I realized I
was holding baby Holly. I was really angry. They had had police come a
couple of times already. What I had heard from my house was "You WANT me to
hit you don't you? You want me to hit you?"
They had a little boy who played with Kirby and Marty. We used to keep him
sometimes.
I said "Shut the fuck up. Just stop it." I told them I could hear them
from my house, and it was early and he started in on me about me probably
being the one who had called the police on them, and I said no, I hadn't,
but I was going to be the next one.>>>
You were very brave and strong. You did good for some other people.
However, your bravery and Keith going to talk to them may have meant nothing
without the threat of the police to be called to back you up. Just as you
had a certain power over the other man because of your position in or
connection to SCA.
You mentioned access to counseling. That could be very good for Julie's
young friend.
What power did Julie hold over that other family, of two adults who were NOT
separated and may stand together in adversity, other than the threat of the
police/CPS? Maybe she had none. Now it has moved to another level.
In California there is a three stikes law. The threat of a third phone call
*could* be a very powerful deterrent in some situations.
Sometimes professionals are useful and can help us. I'd rather have a
professional lawyer, and a professional surgeon, and a professional dentist,
if I need those services, even if I think a professional schoolteacher is
not necessary for my daughter.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Not all social workers are stupid, and not all foster homes are bad.
Why is that a reason not to call the police?
<<<I realized I
was holding baby Holly. I was really angry. They had had police come a
couple of times already. What I had heard from my house was "You WANT me to
hit you don't you? You want me to hit you?"
They had a little boy who played with Kirby and Marty. We used to keep him
sometimes.
I said "Shut the fuck up. Just stop it." I told them I could hear them
from my house, and it was early and he started in on me about me probably
being the one who had called the police on them, and I said no, I hadn't,
but I was going to be the next one.>>>
You were very brave and strong. You did good for some other people.
However, your bravery and Keith going to talk to them may have meant nothing
without the threat of the police to be called to back you up. Just as you
had a certain power over the other man because of your position in or
connection to SCA.
You mentioned access to counseling. That could be very good for Julie's
young friend.
What power did Julie hold over that other family, of two adults who were NOT
separated and may stand together in adversity, other than the threat of the
police/CPS? Maybe she had none. Now it has moved to another level.
In California there is a three stikes law. The threat of a third phone call
*could* be a very powerful deterrent in some situations.
Sometimes professionals are useful and can help us. I'd rather have a
professional lawyer, and a professional surgeon, and a professional dentist,
if I need those services, even if I think a professional schoolteacher is
not necessary for my daughter.
Robyn L. Coburn
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stancland
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
victim of domestic violence. That's almost 1 in 3. I happen to be one of the 31%. I
also experienced being the witness of domestic abuse as a child as well as being
attacked a few times myself. Because of my experiences, which were terrifying and
painful, I don't think I could make the same choice you did, however, I would not
hesitate for a moment to call the police!
As far as the Walmart thing, I agree, that if it were a woman, someone would have
stopped it, even I would have tried, being that it was in a public place. I agree that
these people did not intervene themselves because of that "don't want to interfere"
thing with a child and parent. However, at least these people didn't chuck it up to
"discipline" and do nothing. I don't think they were chickenshit, conversely, I think
that hindsight is 20/20 and that they probably wish they had intervined themselves
after all was said and done. Confidence in ones self is something that a lot of people
are lacking, myself included, and that tends to paralyse people for a moment or a
lifetime.
is stop the violence NOW and many times that can prevent hospitalization, emergency
room visits or worse.
Keith's visit probably worked well because it was after the fact. You can't reason with
these people in the middle of their rages. However, you could call the police to stop
it and then choose to visit at a time of peace, and have a heart to heart.
brave would be to step in themselves. Calling the police IS immediately useful,
especially if you fear for your own safety. What it is not, I will state again, it is not a
solution. If they are lucky enough to have a neighbor like you then maybe, just
maybe, they will see the error in their ways with some talking to. However, my
experience has been that most of the time, they won't change.
Still trying to get it right,
Arlee
> "I said "Shut the fuck up. Just stop it." I told them I could hear themI suspect that you are not one of the estimated 31% of women who have been the
> from my house, and it was early and he started in on me about me probably being
> the one who had called the police on them, and I said no, I hadn't, but I was
> going to be the next one. He said get out of his house. I said I was leaving
> but he'd better cool it and if I heard anything else I WAS calling the police."
victim of domestic violence. That's almost 1 in 3. I happen to be one of the 31%. I
also experienced being the witness of domestic abuse as a child as well as being
attacked a few times myself. Because of my experiences, which were terrifying and
painful, I don't think I could make the same choice you did, however, I would not
hesitate for a moment to call the police!
As far as the Walmart thing, I agree, that if it were a woman, someone would have
stopped it, even I would have tried, being that it was in a public place. I agree that
these people did not intervene themselves because of that "don't want to interfere"
thing with a child and parent. However, at least these people didn't chuck it up to
"discipline" and do nothing. I don't think they were chickenshit, conversely, I think
that hindsight is 20/20 and that they probably wish they had intervined themselves
after all was said and done. Confidence in ones self is something that a lot of people
are lacking, myself included, and that tends to paralyse people for a moment or a
lifetime.
> "The police had been called twice before (that I knew of). That hadn't madeCalling the police never stops future abuse. That's a given. However, what it does do
> much difference. Our going over there seemed to have more impact."
is stop the violence NOW and many times that can prevent hospitalization, emergency
room visits or worse.
Keith's visit probably worked well because it was after the fact. You can't reason with
these people in the middle of their rages. However, you could call the police to stop
it and then choose to visit at a time of peace, and have a heart to heart.
>" I don't think calling the police and hoping it does some good is as brave orBrave is a subjective word. For some, brave would be to call the police, for others,
> immediately useful as stopping the problem before it gets worse. I do think
> it's much better than doing nothing."
brave would be to step in themselves. Calling the police IS immediately useful,
especially if you fear for your own safety. What it is not, I will state again, it is not a
solution. If they are lucky enough to have a neighbor like you then maybe, just
maybe, they will see the error in their ways with some talking to. However, my
experience has been that most of the time, they won't change.
Still trying to get it right,
Arlee
Robyn Coburn
<<<Brave is a subjective word. For some, brave would be to call the police,
for others, brave would be to step in themselves. Calling the police IS
immediately useful, especially if you fear for your own safety.>>>
I have been thinking further about this, and it occurs to me that there is a
particular reason that I consider what Sandra did to be extraordinarily
brave. I would absolutely be too afraid to confront a loudly violent
neighbor directly.
I live in Los Angeles, mecca of gangs. It is more than merely possible that
the violent neighbor might have a gun and/or be a gang member. It is
actually pretty likely. Too likely to risk for me. We call the local station
(not 911) for loud shouting at night, gunfire or scary odd lurkers in the
alley. We have done it four or five times in the last seven years that we
have lived here.
Admittedly the gang and drug activity in my *immediate* neighborhood is
fairly low. However the signs, such as graffiti, are increasing, and the
heart of it is within just a few miles. No shoes on the power lines yet, at
least. A woman in my local group had a drive-by shooting directly outside
her front gate last year, in an area considered "safe" and "family
friendly". The shrine was there for months.
The drug dealers down the street seemed to have moved, possibly after a few
of the locals (including dh) complained - to the police in patrolling squad
cars - about the endless stream of vehicles parking illegally in the alley
at all hours.
I think part of the reason there is a strongish
police presence in our area is the Airport - we get LAPD *and* Airport
Police, and occasionally Bomb Squad, driving by. That and an ongoing attempt
to deter the street racers who love the Parkway. Huge increases in this
after that movie and its sequel came out. Only one small floral shrine that
has been kept up and renewed for years.
Unlucky criminal story: A man tried to mug at gunpoint another guy at the
end of our street, by the high school, last year sometime as I recall.
Unfortunately for the mugger he chose an off duty FBI agent, and ended up
shot dead for his trouble. No shrine in this case.
Before we were dating, James and I were on our way to meet up with some
colleagues after work. It was in Hollywood, not a spectacularly safe city,
but we had parked to walk only one block to the main road. We were mugged at
gunpoint by two well-spoken polite young men. One had a revolver and the
other some kind of automatic pistol. When they told us to walk away, I
thought I was going to die, but fortunately they just ran off in the other
direction with my bag and his wallet.
An early morning jogger found my bag the next day, and called me. They had
left my credit cards, but taken my cash, the nasty sweaty shorts I had been
wearing at work earlier (creepy), and pager. For several months, when I had
replaced the pager, I received a lot of odd pages from people confused by me
returning their page. I passed each of these numbers on to the detective in
charge of this case. Evidently they were drug customers looking for their
dealer. This was before the universality of cel phones.
Robyn L. Coburn
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for others, brave would be to step in themselves. Calling the police IS
immediately useful, especially if you fear for your own safety.>>>
I have been thinking further about this, and it occurs to me that there is a
particular reason that I consider what Sandra did to be extraordinarily
brave. I would absolutely be too afraid to confront a loudly violent
neighbor directly.
I live in Los Angeles, mecca of gangs. It is more than merely possible that
the violent neighbor might have a gun and/or be a gang member. It is
actually pretty likely. Too likely to risk for me. We call the local station
(not 911) for loud shouting at night, gunfire or scary odd lurkers in the
alley. We have done it four or five times in the last seven years that we
have lived here.
Admittedly the gang and drug activity in my *immediate* neighborhood is
fairly low. However the signs, such as graffiti, are increasing, and the
heart of it is within just a few miles. No shoes on the power lines yet, at
least. A woman in my local group had a drive-by shooting directly outside
her front gate last year, in an area considered "safe" and "family
friendly". The shrine was there for months.
The drug dealers down the street seemed to have moved, possibly after a few
of the locals (including dh) complained - to the police in patrolling squad
cars - about the endless stream of vehicles parking illegally in the alley
at all hours.
I think part of the reason there is a strongish
police presence in our area is the Airport - we get LAPD *and* Airport
Police, and occasionally Bomb Squad, driving by. That and an ongoing attempt
to deter the street racers who love the Parkway. Huge increases in this
after that movie and its sequel came out. Only one small floral shrine that
has been kept up and renewed for years.
Unlucky criminal story: A man tried to mug at gunpoint another guy at the
end of our street, by the high school, last year sometime as I recall.
Unfortunately for the mugger he chose an off duty FBI agent, and ended up
shot dead for his trouble. No shrine in this case.
Before we were dating, James and I were on our way to meet up with some
colleagues after work. It was in Hollywood, not a spectacularly safe city,
but we had parked to walk only one block to the main road. We were mugged at
gunpoint by two well-spoken polite young men. One had a revolver and the
other some kind of automatic pistol. When they told us to walk away, I
thought I was going to die, but fortunately they just ran off in the other
direction with my bag and his wallet.
An early morning jogger found my bag the next day, and called me. They had
left my credit cards, but taken my cash, the nasty sweaty shorts I had been
wearing at work earlier (creepy), and pager. For several months, when I had
replaced the pager, I received a lot of odd pages from people confused by me
returning their page. I passed each of these numbers on to the detective in
charge of this case. Evidently they were drug customers looking for their
dealer. This was before the universality of cel phones.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Kristi
Someone mentioned earlier about the girl being worried about the
younger children. I'll add from experience that when I was being
abused, I understood also my mother's codependence w/my stepfather.
I rationalized that while I only had to live with it a few more
years, my mother couldn't live without a man, and had often chosen
standing up to him to standing up to me, like when I told her he was
being sexually inappropriate w/me and she replied that he would
never do that. I was not willing to "wreck our home," knowing that
he didn't seem to abuse my brothers and that my mother did not want
to be without him. So I stuck it out. When I finally tried to
commit suicide, my stepfather didn'twant me in counselling. So I
didn't go.
Sometimes I really wish one of my friends had talked to their
parents about what was happening and that an adult had stepped in.
Sometimes I'm glad noone stepped in.
I also feared being in an unknown situation. Sometimes the evil you
know is easier than the evil you don't. Furthermore, most abuse is
about power. When someone holds power over you it is hard to look
past that.
I can't give you advice, Julie. But I can tell you: I survived ...
I survived being beaten, I survived a suicide attempt, I survived
sexual inappropriateness and even found the strength to say "no"
when it began to evolve into something far worse. In many ways I'm
a stronger person and a better mom because of it. In some ways
not. Lots of people are abused in far worse ways than I was. Lots
of them survive, too. Some don't. Or some survive and go on to be
self-destructive. I was fortunate when I was 19 to have a friend
recognize that I was suicidal and help me get counselling. That
helped me take back the power I'd lost and break out of a cycle of
being involved in abuseive relationships. I feel fortunate I had a
friend who saw it and got it; sometimes I wonder what would have
happened if she hadn't intervened.
I called CPS once because of a large buildup of neglect with a child
I cared for. Sometimes I'm sorry I called, as they looked in,
nothing happened, and things did not get at all better and probably
were a bit worse for a while. Our child protective system does not
really seem to be based on rules or laws, and that makes it
difficult.
If you're afraid to call CPS, if the girl is in school maybe start
by talking to her guidance counsellor. I agree that talking to her
parents might not be the way to go; someone once spoke to my
stepfather about what he was doing to me. He was angry and
embarrased and beat the hell out of me to get his rage out.
Good luck
Kristi
younger children. I'll add from experience that when I was being
abused, I understood also my mother's codependence w/my stepfather.
I rationalized that while I only had to live with it a few more
years, my mother couldn't live without a man, and had often chosen
standing up to him to standing up to me, like when I told her he was
being sexually inappropriate w/me and she replied that he would
never do that. I was not willing to "wreck our home," knowing that
he didn't seem to abuse my brothers and that my mother did not want
to be without him. So I stuck it out. When I finally tried to
commit suicide, my stepfather didn'twant me in counselling. So I
didn't go.
Sometimes I really wish one of my friends had talked to their
parents about what was happening and that an adult had stepped in.
Sometimes I'm glad noone stepped in.
I also feared being in an unknown situation. Sometimes the evil you
know is easier than the evil you don't. Furthermore, most abuse is
about power. When someone holds power over you it is hard to look
past that.
I can't give you advice, Julie. But I can tell you: I survived ...
I survived being beaten, I survived a suicide attempt, I survived
sexual inappropriateness and even found the strength to say "no"
when it began to evolve into something far worse. In many ways I'm
a stronger person and a better mom because of it. In some ways
not. Lots of people are abused in far worse ways than I was. Lots
of them survive, too. Some don't. Or some survive and go on to be
self-destructive. I was fortunate when I was 19 to have a friend
recognize that I was suicidal and help me get counselling. That
helped me take back the power I'd lost and break out of a cycle of
being involved in abuseive relationships. I feel fortunate I had a
friend who saw it and got it; sometimes I wonder what would have
happened if she hadn't intervened.
I called CPS once because of a large buildup of neglect with a child
I cared for. Sometimes I'm sorry I called, as they looked in,
nothing happened, and things did not get at all better and probably
were a bit worse for a while. Our child protective system does not
really seem to be based on rules or laws, and that makes it
difficult.
If you're afraid to call CPS, if the girl is in school maybe start
by talking to her guidance counsellor. I agree that talking to her
parents might not be the way to go; someone once spoke to my
stepfather about what he was doing to me. He was angry and
embarrased and beat the hell out of me to get his rage out.
Good luck
Kristi
Sylvia Toyama
I, too, would have called the 800 number and reported the abuse. My problem with talking to the parents is that it would only enrage them, risking a really nasty beating for the child as a result.
Yes, offering any victim of abuse a place to stay means putting yourself, and your own family, at risk. The most dangerous time in an abused woman's life is when she leaves her abuser, I have to think the same would be true for a child trying to escape. Invite her into your home and you've invited in the same danger.
Personally, I think everyone should feel an obligation to be a mandatory reporter. The real problem is that, in some states (New Mexico, for example) parents can do abusive things to their child in the name of discipline, and even social services thinks it's okay. As long as it's legal for parents to hit a child in any way, there will be levels of interpretation -- some workers and agencies won't have a problem with paddles, belts, etc.
I'm glad you called social services, Julie, and it's good to hear her boyfriend called the police. No matter how this plays out, she needs counseling -- and real life models of good relationship skills -- because it's not uncommon for abused children to become abused wives (been there, lived that) or abusers themselves.
Syl
****
The only problem with offering her a place to stay is that the parents would then know where to find her. A women's shelter, where the addresses are confidential might be a better place.
---------------------------------
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Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, offering any victim of abuse a place to stay means putting yourself, and your own family, at risk. The most dangerous time in an abused woman's life is when she leaves her abuser, I have to think the same would be true for a child trying to escape. Invite her into your home and you've invited in the same danger.
Personally, I think everyone should feel an obligation to be a mandatory reporter. The real problem is that, in some states (New Mexico, for example) parents can do abusive things to their child in the name of discipline, and even social services thinks it's okay. As long as it's legal for parents to hit a child in any way, there will be levels of interpretation -- some workers and agencies won't have a problem with paddles, belts, etc.
I'm glad you called social services, Julie, and it's good to hear her boyfriend called the police. No matter how this plays out, she needs counseling -- and real life models of good relationship skills -- because it's not uncommon for abused children to become abused wives (been there, lived that) or abusers themselves.
Syl
****
The only problem with offering her a place to stay is that the parents would then know where to find her. A women's shelter, where the addresses are confidential might be a better place.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<<<< In our old neighborhood I went to my neighbors one morning early
(6:40 a.m.
officer will tell you the most dangerous call they respond to is a domestic
disturbance.
Julie S.
(6:40 a.m.
> or so) when they were yelling loud enough to hear from my house and myknock on
> the door pushed the door open. There I was in the living room. Irealized I
> was holding baby Holly. I was really angry.>>>>>I'm glad this worked out for you and for them but any law enforcement
officer will tell you the most dangerous call they respond to is a domestic
disturbance.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Child abuse
> In a message dated 7/16/2004 10:01:24 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> dezigna@... writes:
> They seem to think it doesn't work to protect the child as well as telling
> social workers does.
> ===========
> Professional teachers are sure what we do doesn't serve achild as well as
> sending them to professionals does.
>
> Professionals will professionally assure people they're the only chance
for
> safety or success.
>
> -=-This life threatening abuse is the real
> reason social services exist.
> -=-
>
> I think they exist to make sure people have food and utilities first.
> Welfare.
> And medical services. Social workers often ensure people's access to
medical
> services or counselling or rehab.
>
> -=- In a case of abuse isn't it saying "stop it" *if you can do
> so safely* AND calling the authorities.
> -=-
>
> Not all social workers are bright and not all foster homes are good.
>
> -=-What if another night Julie heard a
> scream, should she go over and say "Stop it", incidentally risking getting
> beaten herself, or should she call the police?-=-
>
> In our old neighborhood I went to my neighbors one morning early (6:40
a.m.
> or so) when they were yelling loud enough to hear from my house and my
knock on
> the door pushed the door open. There I was in the living room. I
realized I
> was holding baby Holly. I was really angry. They had had police come a
> couple of times already. What I had heard from my house was "You WANT me
to hit
> you don't you? You want me to hit you?"
>
> They had a little boy who played with Kirby and Marty. We used to keep
him
> sometimes.
>
> I said "Shut the fuck up. Just stop it." I told them I could hear them
> from my house, and it was early and he started in on me about me probably
being
> the one who had called the police on them, and I said no, I hadn't, but I
was
> going to be the next one. He said get out of his house. I said I was
leaving
> but he'd better cool it and if I heard anything else I WAS calling the
police.
>
> I went home and called Keith, who came home and talked to him for a long
time.
> Things got better.
> Maybe it's because they knew they were wrong and didn't want to be
arrested
> again. Maybe it's because Keith and I werethere, and they knew we weren't
> afraid of them.
>
> The police had been called twice before (that I knew of). That hadn't
made
> much difference. Our going over there seemed to have more impact.
>
> -=If fear of being called a "chickenshit" is going to stop someone from
> calling the police next time, I think it is a shame. It seems likely they
> wouldn't be brave enough to go up and stay "Stop it" in the parking lot
> anyway.
> -=-
>
> I don't think calling the police and hoping it does some good is as brave
or
> immediately useful as stopping the problem before it gets worse. I do
think
> it's much better than doing nothing But in that parking lot story, had it
been
> a man striking a woman, lots of men would have tried to stop it. Because
it
> was a child, people were afraid to interfere.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/17/2004 2:43:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
stanclan@... writes:
Keith's visit probably worked well because it was after the fact. You can't
reason with
these people in the middle of their rages.
===========
I wasn't trying to reason with them.
I was threatening them.
And Keith only talked to the husband, literally leaning on the truck out in
front of both our houses, and got him calm and tried to reason with him. And
it all had an underlying threat and a kind of "I can't keep my wife from
calling if this happens again," and a big dose of "If you're stronger you have a
duty to control yourself" (generic martial arts/chivalry kind of principles).
=\= However, you could call the police to stop
it and then choose to visit at a time of peace, and have a heart to heart.
=\=
Quite as with drunks and druggies, sometimes when people aren't in the midst
of their rage, they're different people and hardly even remember the mindset.
It doesn't help much to talk to a sober person about how bad the alcoholism
is. Their whole being, including memory, is compartmentalized. Sometimes it
helps more to scare them in the alcoholic state. It's more conditioning than
reason. My mom's alcoholic self had a whole different set of principles and
awarenesses than her sober self. The two halves of her didn't communicate much
at all.
If the enraged neighbor remembered I was a danger to him, and that others
might have the courage to look him in the eye and say stop, it might not totally
change him, but it will slow him down.
If the police are the threat, that's like teachers on the playground. If
they're not watching, if the police aren't there, you can do what you want. But
when I did call the police on another situation once, it took nearly ten
minutes for them to get there, and the guy had left. It only took me thirty
seconds to get over there myself.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stanclan@... writes:
Keith's visit probably worked well because it was after the fact. You can't
reason with
these people in the middle of their rages.
===========
I wasn't trying to reason with them.
I was threatening them.
And Keith only talked to the husband, literally leaning on the truck out in
front of both our houses, and got him calm and tried to reason with him. And
it all had an underlying threat and a kind of "I can't keep my wife from
calling if this happens again," and a big dose of "If you're stronger you have a
duty to control yourself" (generic martial arts/chivalry kind of principles).
=\= However, you could call the police to stop
it and then choose to visit at a time of peace, and have a heart to heart.
=\=
Quite as with drunks and druggies, sometimes when people aren't in the midst
of their rage, they're different people and hardly even remember the mindset.
It doesn't help much to talk to a sober person about how bad the alcoholism
is. Their whole being, including memory, is compartmentalized. Sometimes it
helps more to scare them in the alcoholic state. It's more conditioning than
reason. My mom's alcoholic self had a whole different set of principles and
awarenesses than her sober self. The two halves of her didn't communicate much
at all.
If the enraged neighbor remembered I was a danger to him, and that others
might have the courage to look him in the eye and say stop, it might not totally
change him, but it will slow him down.
If the police are the threat, that's like teachers on the playground. If
they're not watching, if the police aren't there, you can do what you want. But
when I did call the police on another situation once, it took nearly ten
minutes for them to get there, and the guy had left. It only took me thirty
seconds to get over there myself.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/17/2004 5:00:30 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
I have been thinking further about this, and it occurs to me that there is a
particular reason that I consider what Sandra did to be extraordinarily
brave. I would absolutely be too afraid to confront a loudly violent
neighbor directly.
I live in Los Angeles, mecca of gangs. It is more than merely possible that
the violent neighbor might have a gun and/or be a gang member. It is
actually pretty likely. Too likely to risk for me.
==========================
When I spoke softly to my behind-my-house neighbor ( in the vacant lot of his
side yard, our back yard==and then it turned to yelling) last year, I was
afraid, but not shaky-afraid. I was apprehensive that he might do something
later.
It does help that I have a big scary husband. I never have sicced him on
anyone, but in terms of bullying males, if they see a bigger male with a brave
wife, it's a deterrent. But my husband wasn't home. The guy didn't know that.
But I was tired of hearing him and the mom yell at those kids all the time
for nothing, and hateful things. Their kids were bullying Holly verbally. So
I was doing something for Holly, indirectly.
Twice afterwards that I know of, the police were looking for that guy. Once
they had the police helicopter over the neighborhood. They didn't find him
either time. But there's been no yelling, no young boys, for many months, so
something happened. There's a girl there with a baby sometimes. Late teens,
early 20's. I did feel bad for the kids.
If I thought he had a gun while he was out trying to fly a kite with his kids
(and calling them idiot and stupid because the kite wasn't going up), I
might've acted differently.
But there can be another downside to reporting something. My friend Cathyn
and I were in a Village Inn on Central/66 one night and a very drunk couple
were the only others in the big section, and he hit her (not very effectively,
they were SO drunk) and I saw it, and the two of us bailed out of our booth and
Cathyn saw him drag her out of the booth and gently got him away from her.
The manager called the police. He should've done something sooner. They had
already decided to ignore the couple, but they hadn't asked them to leave.
So they were totally disturbing OUR visit.
I advised the couple to go on home (they lived walking distance) but they
said no, they were going to eat. The restaurant people said they weren't going
to serve them. I said if the police came they would have to deal with that,
but they should go home and sleep it off.
The guy was scrawny and weak. The woman was not even going to remember, she
was so drunk. But they stayed. The police took him in.
Cathyn and I were subpoenaed to court as witnesses. He had to miss half a
day of work. I had to arrange for the kids (not too bad, as Holly was eight or
nine by then). The guy didn't show up, so they issued an arrest warrant and
we were subpoenaed again. Cathyn had to miss another half day of work.
Because I could identify the guy in the courtroom before court started, they let us
go home without testifying.
My cost was time, inconvenience and paying to park downtown. I'm just glad
I didn't live far out of town, or have to take off from work myself.
-=-However the signs, such as graffiti, are increasing, and the
heart of it is within just a few miles. No shoes on the power lines yet, at
least.-=-
What are shoes on the power lines meaning where you are?
Here it just means school bullies snatched shoes from smaller kids and threw
them where they couldn't get them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
I have been thinking further about this, and it occurs to me that there is a
particular reason that I consider what Sandra did to be extraordinarily
brave. I would absolutely be too afraid to confront a loudly violent
neighbor directly.
I live in Los Angeles, mecca of gangs. It is more than merely possible that
the violent neighbor might have a gun and/or be a gang member. It is
actually pretty likely. Too likely to risk for me.
==========================
When I spoke softly to my behind-my-house neighbor ( in the vacant lot of his
side yard, our back yard==and then it turned to yelling) last year, I was
afraid, but not shaky-afraid. I was apprehensive that he might do something
later.
It does help that I have a big scary husband. I never have sicced him on
anyone, but in terms of bullying males, if they see a bigger male with a brave
wife, it's a deterrent. But my husband wasn't home. The guy didn't know that.
But I was tired of hearing him and the mom yell at those kids all the time
for nothing, and hateful things. Their kids were bullying Holly verbally. So
I was doing something for Holly, indirectly.
Twice afterwards that I know of, the police were looking for that guy. Once
they had the police helicopter over the neighborhood. They didn't find him
either time. But there's been no yelling, no young boys, for many months, so
something happened. There's a girl there with a baby sometimes. Late teens,
early 20's. I did feel bad for the kids.
If I thought he had a gun while he was out trying to fly a kite with his kids
(and calling them idiot and stupid because the kite wasn't going up), I
might've acted differently.
But there can be another downside to reporting something. My friend Cathyn
and I were in a Village Inn on Central/66 one night and a very drunk couple
were the only others in the big section, and he hit her (not very effectively,
they were SO drunk) and I saw it, and the two of us bailed out of our booth and
Cathyn saw him drag her out of the booth and gently got him away from her.
The manager called the police. He should've done something sooner. They had
already decided to ignore the couple, but they hadn't asked them to leave.
So they were totally disturbing OUR visit.
I advised the couple to go on home (they lived walking distance) but they
said no, they were going to eat. The restaurant people said they weren't going
to serve them. I said if the police came they would have to deal with that,
but they should go home and sleep it off.
The guy was scrawny and weak. The woman was not even going to remember, she
was so drunk. But they stayed. The police took him in.
Cathyn and I were subpoenaed to court as witnesses. He had to miss half a
day of work. I had to arrange for the kids (not too bad, as Holly was eight or
nine by then). The guy didn't show up, so they issued an arrest warrant and
we were subpoenaed again. Cathyn had to miss another half day of work.
Because I could identify the guy in the courtroom before court started, they let us
go home without testifying.
My cost was time, inconvenience and paying to park downtown. I'm just glad
I didn't live far out of town, or have to take off from work myself.
-=-However the signs, such as graffiti, are increasing, and the
heart of it is within just a few miles. No shoes on the power lines yet, at
least.-=-
What are shoes on the power lines meaning where you are?
Here it just means school bullies snatched shoes from smaller kids and threw
them where they couldn't get them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Sandra,
I know in some areas, shoes from the utility line indicates a place to buy
narcotics...not sure if that's what it means where Robyn lives, but would be
most likely.
Elaine
In a message dated 7/17/2004 12:53:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
What are shoes on the power lines meaning where you are?
Here it just means school bullies snatched shoes from smaller kids and threw
them where they couldn't get them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know in some areas, shoes from the utility line indicates a place to buy
narcotics...not sure if that's what it means where Robyn lives, but would be
most likely.
Elaine
In a message dated 7/17/2004 12:53:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
What are shoes on the power lines meaning where you are?
Here it just means school bullies snatched shoes from smaller kids and threw
them where they couldn't get them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]