natural changes in older kids?
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/04 8:11:30 AM, aimeel73@... writes:
<< Then we wonder why teenagerhood is so hard? I think
it's because kids feel betrayed and ignored, and
overreact with this false, early, independence. Well,
looking back, that was my experience, anyway. >>
Of my three kids, Kirby is the most betrayed/ignored, because I had two more
kids. I look back and can think of lots of incidents I wish I could change.
He gets TONS of attention. He's usually the sparkliest guy in a group, and
he hangs out with several groups of kids. .0But between the two of us
there's a growing disconnect, a shortness of patience and regard. It's more subtle
than most people would see. It's at a feeling level, and a facial-expression
level, mostly. I was talking to Marty about it yesterday and said Kirby was
acting like most people's kids start acting when they're twelve (in way of
backhandedly admitting I'm pretty lucky that it took this long for him to feel
crowded), and I wish I remembered exactly what Marty said, but it was something
like "Maybe we just takes us longer to grow into our big-shoes." (emphasis on
the Big, if big was the word he used. Some shoes)
I think it's instinctive on both our parts. If he felt safer at home than
out, he wouldn't go. We're not in a hurry for him to go. He's not in a hurry
to go, either. But I feel the thoughts and feelings as I felt strong new
feelings and urges and "knowings" when I had babies.
I better save some of these phrases for an article I'm working on. <g>
-=-I think part of it is some misplaced need to toughen
them up, make them grow up faster, push them out of
the nest, I don't know. Is it possible it's
instinct, from the days when kids this age are soon to
be parents, and have families and homes of their own?-=-
On TV commercials and print ads, they often show older kids playing with a
game or toy than the actual target audience. Part of the sell in such cases is
the identification with the older kids.
You know how snakes swallow? How people swallow? How that motion starts and
then just perpetuates itself until the wad is through?
I didn't go to kindergarten, but I've had relatives go (and my brother, when
he was in my care at that age) and the background song was "When you get to
real school..."
I remember from first grade, the explanations of the big pencils and fat
crayons. They were so when we got to second grade and couldn't us those
anymore, we would be ready. The dotted lines in our practice paper wouldn't be there
anymore when we got to second grade.
In sixth grade they started in on us about Jr. High, and how much different
it would be, and we needed to look at that, and want it.
Sometimes that's a threat, and sometimes it's a happy goal.
"But when you get to *high* school..."
"In college, they won't baby you the way we do in high school..."
"This level of writing wouldn't cut it in grad school, but it's okay for a
Jr. English paper..."
So people aren't living in the moment or appreciating being where they are
(except on South Park, where they decided to stay in 2nd grade, right? or
third?<g>). They're looking at the older kids and wondering what all they have to
do to be them.
I have seen very little of that with unschooled kids.
There is an instinct, I'm sure, on the part of child and parent, but I think
there's a cultural swallowing that happens. It has the movement and pressure
and the kids are gone.
Sandra
<< Then we wonder why teenagerhood is so hard? I think
it's because kids feel betrayed and ignored, and
overreact with this false, early, independence. Well,
looking back, that was my experience, anyway. >>
Of my three kids, Kirby is the most betrayed/ignored, because I had two more
kids. I look back and can think of lots of incidents I wish I could change.
He gets TONS of attention. He's usually the sparkliest guy in a group, and
he hangs out with several groups of kids. .0But between the two of us
there's a growing disconnect, a shortness of patience and regard. It's more subtle
than most people would see. It's at a feeling level, and a facial-expression
level, mostly. I was talking to Marty about it yesterday and said Kirby was
acting like most people's kids start acting when they're twelve (in way of
backhandedly admitting I'm pretty lucky that it took this long for him to feel
crowded), and I wish I remembered exactly what Marty said, but it was something
like "Maybe we just takes us longer to grow into our big-shoes." (emphasis on
the Big, if big was the word he used. Some shoes)
I think it's instinctive on both our parts. If he felt safer at home than
out, he wouldn't go. We're not in a hurry for him to go. He's not in a hurry
to go, either. But I feel the thoughts and feelings as I felt strong new
feelings and urges and "knowings" when I had babies.
I better save some of these phrases for an article I'm working on. <g>
-=-I think part of it is some misplaced need to toughen
them up, make them grow up faster, push them out of
the nest, I don't know. Is it possible it's
instinct, from the days when kids this age are soon to
be parents, and have families and homes of their own?-=-
On TV commercials and print ads, they often show older kids playing with a
game or toy than the actual target audience. Part of the sell in such cases is
the identification with the older kids.
You know how snakes swallow? How people swallow? How that motion starts and
then just perpetuates itself until the wad is through?
I didn't go to kindergarten, but I've had relatives go (and my brother, when
he was in my care at that age) and the background song was "When you get to
real school..."
I remember from first grade, the explanations of the big pencils and fat
crayons. They were so when we got to second grade and couldn't us those
anymore, we would be ready. The dotted lines in our practice paper wouldn't be there
anymore when we got to second grade.
In sixth grade they started in on us about Jr. High, and how much different
it would be, and we needed to look at that, and want it.
Sometimes that's a threat, and sometimes it's a happy goal.
"But when you get to *high* school..."
"In college, they won't baby you the way we do in high school..."
"This level of writing wouldn't cut it in grad school, but it's okay for a
Jr. English paper..."
So people aren't living in the moment or appreciating being where they are
(except on South Park, where they decided to stay in 2nd grade, right? or
third?<g>). They're looking at the older kids and wondering what all they have to
do to be them.
I have seen very little of that with unschooled kids.
There is an instinct, I'm sure, on the part of child and parent, but I think
there's a cultural swallowing that happens. It has the movement and pressure
and the kids are gone.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/2004 10:32:30 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I think it's instinctive on both our parts.
~~~
I can't imagine my 18 yo son being as attached to me as my 10 yo son is
right now. I can't imagine him still wanting full body hugs and lying in bed
with me before sleep. I can't imagine my 21 yo son being as in tune with my
facial expressions and intimate words as he once was. He has transferred all of
that to his lovely wife.
At some point our sons (I don't know about daughters) have to pull away to
allow themselves intimacy with another woman. I truly don't believe they can
be intimate with their mothers and their significant others to the same
degree. That's why there are jokes about it. It happens in increments. It
seemed to be most noticeable for us when they both had their first kiss. Kissing
mom was way different for them after that.
However, my son has been married for over a year now, and conversation and
intimacy of a sort has come back around, naturally. I think you're right
about it being instinctive, and I think it happens to some degree to all kids,
unschooled or not. Probably differently for unschooled kids, but it still
happens.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
I think it's instinctive on both our parts.
~~~
I can't imagine my 18 yo son being as attached to me as my 10 yo son is
right now. I can't imagine him still wanting full body hugs and lying in bed
with me before sleep. I can't imagine my 21 yo son being as in tune with my
facial expressions and intimate words as he once was. He has transferred all of
that to his lovely wife.
At some point our sons (I don't know about daughters) have to pull away to
allow themselves intimacy with another woman. I truly don't believe they can
be intimate with their mothers and their significant others to the same
degree. That's why there are jokes about it. It happens in increments. It
seemed to be most noticeable for us when they both had their first kiss. Kissing
mom was way different for them after that.
However, my son has been married for over a year now, and conversation and
intimacy of a sort has come back around, naturally. I think you're right
about it being instinctive, and I think it happens to some degree to all kids,
unschooled or not. Probably differently for unschooled kids, but it still
happens.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Aimee
That's what's going on with dh and son, but not son
and me, or at least, not as much. Shortness of
patience, yes. Like all of a sudden, "You should know
better" applies. Flashback to own childhood," How
should I know better if you never explained it to me
or showed me?" That's the betrayal part. Even when I
was old enough to actually formulate and ask that
question, I got no answer! That frustration lasted
from 10-11 and culminated at 19 when I finally left
home to figure it out by myself, the hard way.
Maybe I'll notice it more as he gets older, between
us, like you seemed to with Kirby, but am conscious of
it now, actively fighting it, inside. That's what is
making it feel like it might be instinct, but I'm sure
you're right that the society part of it is the
stronger influence.
My son has many many younger cousins. It drives him
crazy that they want to spend so much time following
him around. He literally hides, and they find him
anyway! lol He's getting better at gently saying, not
right now, or, trying to give them a little so they
let go.
Crazy that they feel that pressure so young, eek. Now
I'm glad that I model an adult playing with them with
a childlike quality no one else will deign to do with
them.
~Aimee
<<But between the two of
us
there's a growing disconnect, a shortness of patience
and regard. It's
more subtle
than most people would see. It's at a feeling level,
and a
facial-expression
level, mostly. >>
and me, or at least, not as much. Shortness of
patience, yes. Like all of a sudden, "You should know
better" applies. Flashback to own childhood," How
should I know better if you never explained it to me
or showed me?" That's the betrayal part. Even when I
was old enough to actually formulate and ask that
question, I got no answer! That frustration lasted
from 10-11 and culminated at 19 when I finally left
home to figure it out by myself, the hard way.
Maybe I'll notice it more as he gets older, between
us, like you seemed to with Kirby, but am conscious of
it now, actively fighting it, inside. That's what is
making it feel like it might be instinct, but I'm sure
you're right that the society part of it is the
stronger influence.
My son has many many younger cousins. It drives him
crazy that they want to spend so much time following
him around. He literally hides, and they find him
anyway! lol He's getting better at gently saying, not
right now, or, trying to give them a little so they
let go.
Crazy that they feel that pressure so young, eek. Now
I'm glad that I model an adult playing with them with
a childlike quality no one else will deign to do with
them.
~Aimee
<<But between the two of
us
there's a growing disconnect, a shortness of patience
and regard. It's
more subtle
than most people would see. It's at a feeling level,
and a
facial-expression
level, mostly. >>
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/04 10:09:28 AM, aimeel73@... writes:
<< That's what is
making it feel like it might be instinct, but I'm sure
you're right that the society part of it is the
stronger influence. >>
I don't think it's stronger, I just think it accelerates it. Younger kids
long to be older.
<<My son has many many younger cousins. It drives him
crazy that they want to spend so much time following
him around. He literally hides, and they find him
anyway!>>
When my kids are avoiding younger kids I try to remind them of how they felt
when they were younger and wanted to play with older kids. They all remember,
and they try to be more patient with the adoration of younger kids. I think
that's a natural thing too, wanting to be with the big kids.
But schools use it as a constant "you better be good, better not cry" kind of
threat/promise. Its one thing when a child has a real desire, and another
when the desire is pounded into him.
Sandra
<< That's what is
making it feel like it might be instinct, but I'm sure
you're right that the society part of it is the
stronger influence. >>
I don't think it's stronger, I just think it accelerates it. Younger kids
long to be older.
<<My son has many many younger cousins. It drives him
crazy that they want to spend so much time following
him around. He literally hides, and they find him
anyway!>>
When my kids are avoiding younger kids I try to remind them of how they felt
when they were younger and wanted to play with older kids. They all remember,
and they try to be more patient with the adoration of younger kids. I think
that's a natural thing too, wanting to be with the big kids.
But schools use it as a constant "you better be good, better not cry" kind of
threat/promise. Its one thing when a child has a real desire, and another
when the desire is pounded into him.
Sandra
Cally Brown
Sandra, it has taken me years - over a decade really - to move from what
is now called eclectic homeschooling, to unschooling. So my #1ds had
the hardest time from me. His period of
was the most obvious, in your face.
on going in a very subtle way.
The 17yo has just started, about 6 months ago and is a bit more antsy
with it, but it's liveable with almost all of the time.
I think that there are many variables: how your relationship is to
start with, the kid's personality, your own personality, etc etc. But
if our kids are to become truely independent, they have to put distance
between themselves and us. If your relationship is good, respectful,
fearless, as yours seems to be, and you have unschooled in the full
sense of the word - the way you use it - then it will be a subtle
distancing. It is still sad for us mothers, but seems necessary. But
then after a while, the relationship stablizes again, settling down into
a slightly different place. If you have screwed up the way I did with
my eldest, then it is a much more violent and distressing thing - but
still not without hope. He is married, and has two children now, only 2
1/2 and 8 months, but both getting married and having kids has changed
his perspective a lot - he's more sympathetic to the feelings he now
understands that I had, and of course, I have traveled a long way in my
head, and behaviour, since those bad days.
never ceases to amaze me how LLL ideas remain so pertinent to my life
even now my kids are 23, 21, 17, & 14. Just as our children gradually
weaned from the breast, and then from needing our physical presence all
the time - as long as they knew they had us to return to whenever they
wanted, so our young adults are lucky if they have a home, parents, that
they can feel comfortable in using as a safe base that will always be
there for them, enabling them to venture forth into the world futher and
further. Those who are pushed away, made to 'stand on their own two
feet', be real men, blah blah, will be less able to actually be
independent in their Being. They will rebel violently or become passive
blobs. They will be needy adults - like me - rather than really
independent. They may be loud, brash, rebellous, agressive even, but
that is not real independence. I feel sad for me, sad for my eldest son
- but we are all doing better now. But I also really do think it is
partly a personality thing too.
The LLL image is the one I like to use - though it is hard to think like
that sometimes when you are looking up at your 6'3" son who is being
antsy! But it really is just another weaning process.
Sorry this is rambling - I've had a wonderful but very busy week, am
very tired, and the brain is just not functioning as well as I would
like. I hope I've made some sense here.
Cally
is now called eclectic homeschooling, to unschooling. So my #1ds had
the hardest time from me. His period of
>growing disconnect, a shortness of patience and regard.between the two of us started earlier, lasted the longest (so far!) and
>
was the most obvious, in your face.
> It's more subtleMy next son is nearly 21, and it was much much later, very subtle, still
>than most people would see. It's at a feeling level, and a facial-expression
>level, mostly. I was talking to Marty about it yesterday and said Kirby was
>acting like most people's kids start acting when they're twelve (in way of
>backhandedly admitting I'm pretty lucky that it took this long for him to feel
>crowded), and I wish I remembered exactly what Marty said, but it was something
>like "Maybe we just takes us longer to grow into our big-shoes." (emphasis on
>the Big, if big was the word he used. Some shoes)
>
on going in a very subtle way.
The 17yo has just started, about 6 months ago and is a bit more antsy
with it, but it's liveable with almost all of the time.
I think that there are many variables: how your relationship is to
start with, the kid's personality, your own personality, etc etc. But
if our kids are to become truely independent, they have to put distance
between themselves and us. If your relationship is good, respectful,
fearless, as yours seems to be, and you have unschooled in the full
sense of the word - the way you use it - then it will be a subtle
distancing. It is still sad for us mothers, but seems necessary. But
then after a while, the relationship stablizes again, settling down into
a slightly different place. If you have screwed up the way I did with
my eldest, then it is a much more violent and distressing thing - but
still not without hope. He is married, and has two children now, only 2
1/2 and 8 months, but both getting married and having kids has changed
his perspective a lot - he's more sympathetic to the feelings he now
understands that I had, and of course, I have traveled a long way in my
head, and behaviour, since those bad days.
>I think it's instinctive on both our parts.Yes, I really believe it is.
>
> If he felt safer at home thanIt's like the baby led weaning we talked about at La Leche League. It
>out, he wouldn't go. We're not in a hurry for him to go. He's not in a hurry
>to go, either. But I feel the thoughts and feelings as I felt strong new
>feelings and urges and "knowings" when I had babies.
>
never ceases to amaze me how LLL ideas remain so pertinent to my life
even now my kids are 23, 21, 17, & 14. Just as our children gradually
weaned from the breast, and then from needing our physical presence all
the time - as long as they knew they had us to return to whenever they
wanted, so our young adults are lucky if they have a home, parents, that
they can feel comfortable in using as a safe base that will always be
there for them, enabling them to venture forth into the world futher and
further. Those who are pushed away, made to 'stand on their own two
feet', be real men, blah blah, will be less able to actually be
independent in their Being. They will rebel violently or become passive
blobs. They will be needy adults - like me - rather than really
independent. They may be loud, brash, rebellous, agressive even, but
that is not real independence. I feel sad for me, sad for my eldest son
- but we are all doing better now. But I also really do think it is
partly a personality thing too.
The LLL image is the one I like to use - though it is hard to think like
that sometimes when you are looking up at your 6'3" son who is being
antsy! But it really is just another weaning process.
Sorry this is rambling - I've had a wonderful but very busy week, am
very tired, and the brain is just not functioning as well as I would
like. I hope I've made some sense here.
Cally
stancland
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
blog by a teeneage girl who was at the time (2002) a freshman in highshcool. I read
through this childs blog and was both saddened (I can relate to my teenage years)
and thankful!
For those of you who are "lurkers" in this group, (like me), who are unsure of
themselves and need a "shot in the arm" once in a while, you might find reading this
childs blog (and the links to her friends blogs) an inspiration in a sad kind of way. My
heart bled for her as I read through her writings and I was taken so swiftley back to
those days when that was me! On June 17 she talks about the pressure to act more
mature than she feels. You can see how knowing that she has no control over
anything she does or "is" feeds all sorts of negative thoughts.
http://www.bleachedblack.blogspot.com/
The only other blog I read was that of her newly "x-boyfriend", Pedro. These two
children show both insightfulness and neediness that has fallen upon deaf ears. It's
so sad.
After I read these, I was once again reassured that public school is not something that
my children need ever feel they "missed out on"! And that the parenting approaches
endorsed here and on Unschooling.com are the ONLY way for me and my family!
Still Trying to Get It Right,
Arlee
>When I was doing the search for bleach and kerosene last night, I came upon a web
> In a message dated 7/8/04 8:11:30 AM, aimeel73@s... writes:
>
> <<"Then we wonder why teenagerhood is so hard? I think
> it's because kids feel betrayed and ignored, and
> overreact with this false, early, independence. Well,
> looking back, that was my experience, anyway." >>
blog by a teeneage girl who was at the time (2002) a freshman in highshcool. I read
through this childs blog and was both saddened (I can relate to my teenage years)
and thankful!
For those of you who are "lurkers" in this group, (like me), who are unsure of
themselves and need a "shot in the arm" once in a while, you might find reading this
childs blog (and the links to her friends blogs) an inspiration in a sad kind of way. My
heart bled for her as I read through her writings and I was taken so swiftley back to
those days when that was me! On June 17 she talks about the pressure to act more
mature than she feels. You can see how knowing that she has no control over
anything she does or "is" feeds all sorts of negative thoughts.
http://www.bleachedblack.blogspot.com/
The only other blog I read was that of her newly "x-boyfriend", Pedro. These two
children show both insightfulness and neediness that has fallen upon deaf ears. It's
so sad.
After I read these, I was once again reassured that public school is not something that
my children need ever feel they "missed out on"! And that the parenting approaches
endorsed here and on Unschooling.com are the ONLY way for me and my family!
Still Trying to Get It Right,
Arlee
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/04 3:09:08 PM, mjcmbrwn@... writes:
<< The LLL image is the one I like to use - though it is hard to think like
that sometimes when you are looking up at your 6'3" son who is being
antsy! But it really is just another weaning process.
Sorry this is rambling - >>
No, thanks---it was wonderful, not rambly.
Made me feel lots better.
Sandra
<< The LLL image is the one I like to use - though it is hard to think like
that sometimes when you are looking up at your 6'3" son who is being
antsy! But it really is just another weaning process.
Sorry this is rambling - >>
No, thanks---it was wonderful, not rambly.
Made me feel lots better.
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
If your relationship is good, respectful,
fearless, as yours seems to be, and you have unschooled in the full
sense of the word - the way you use it - then it will be a subtle
distancing. It is still sad for us mothers, but seems necessary. But
then after a while, the relationship stablizes again, settling down into
a slightly different place. <<<<
I've been thinking a lot about this lately...the growing up, and distancing. First let me say that I was not always unschooling my son. I haven't been following this thread, but we didn't start seriously unschooling until about 2 years ago, and it wasn't until the past 18 months or so that I really let go. My son has taken the brunt of a lot of my mistakes, some of which were quite harsh. So, let me just put out there that "there is hope".
As i let go, our relationship righted itself, and came back into balance, and its been a beautiful thing that I will FOREVER cherish, especially now that he is growing up and moving toward living his own life. I can't tell you how glad I am that I backed off...and how sorry I feel for my friends who think they still must fight with their kids to get things done.
My son (almost 16 years old) is the one who has moved away from me the most. Not in a violent way, just in a natural way. I hadn't expected it so soon! I really really miss him. I suppose empty nest is just starting to settle in. He doesn't need me in the same tangible way he used to. It hurts a little bit. We mostly now just enjoy each other's company.
The only real difference between him now at 16 and when he is 20 is that he doesn't have a job, and isn't driving. Other than those two practical matters, he is all but living his own life under our roof...with us there all the time for "back up" and support. I would feel completely comfortable leaving him at home alone for the weekend. We did almost that this past weekend and it was fine. He even cleaned up a bit around the house, took care of the animals, and WASHED THE DISHES!!!! WOW!
I just cannot believe it. Its like this man sprouted out of nowhere, and kidnapped my son!! LOL. I cannot believe how fast it all happened! He's a great guy. Still has a few quirks that are annoying, but then we all do I guess.
I guess I just wanted to share that relationships can be re-balanced, and that its so important to do it, because its really all you'll have left when they are grown.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fearless, as yours seems to be, and you have unschooled in the full
sense of the word - the way you use it - then it will be a subtle
distancing. It is still sad for us mothers, but seems necessary. But
then after a while, the relationship stablizes again, settling down into
a slightly different place. <<<<
I've been thinking a lot about this lately...the growing up, and distancing. First let me say that I was not always unschooling my son. I haven't been following this thread, but we didn't start seriously unschooling until about 2 years ago, and it wasn't until the past 18 months or so that I really let go. My son has taken the brunt of a lot of my mistakes, some of which were quite harsh. So, let me just put out there that "there is hope".
As i let go, our relationship righted itself, and came back into balance, and its been a beautiful thing that I will FOREVER cherish, especially now that he is growing up and moving toward living his own life. I can't tell you how glad I am that I backed off...and how sorry I feel for my friends who think they still must fight with their kids to get things done.
My son (almost 16 years old) is the one who has moved away from me the most. Not in a violent way, just in a natural way. I hadn't expected it so soon! I really really miss him. I suppose empty nest is just starting to settle in. He doesn't need me in the same tangible way he used to. It hurts a little bit. We mostly now just enjoy each other's company.
The only real difference between him now at 16 and when he is 20 is that he doesn't have a job, and isn't driving. Other than those two practical matters, he is all but living his own life under our roof...with us there all the time for "back up" and support. I would feel completely comfortable leaving him at home alone for the weekend. We did almost that this past weekend and it was fine. He even cleaned up a bit around the house, took care of the animals, and WASHED THE DISHES!!!! WOW!
I just cannot believe it. Its like this man sprouted out of nowhere, and kidnapped my son!! LOL. I cannot believe how fast it all happened! He's a great guy. Still has a few quirks that are annoying, but then we all do I guess.
I guess I just wanted to share that relationships can be re-balanced, and that its so important to do it, because its really all you'll have left when they are grown.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]