kids making decisions for themselves
[email protected]
COOL! While I was working on another post, this one came, and is about the
same topic.
<<There is no single statement that would cause all parents to realize the
benefits of removing limits. It takes many conversations and hearing or reading
stories of families where it is working. Maybe some people read one thing,
one time and totally change, but I needed to hear or read it over and over
before it made sense. It also took self examination for me to realize areas I was
setting limits without realizing it.
<<Mary Ellen>>
In the Life Learning post before this, I had quoted the end of a letter to
the editor who was thanking them for the anti-"machine" article.
This is the second of two pararaphs there:
-=-"I say, everything in balance, in its own developmentally appropriate
time. However, I am not about to let my two-year-old child play in traffic in the
name of freedom; nor will she have unfettered use of electronic media until
she can make that decision for herself."
-=-
Had that been posted here by its author, it might have been taken apart and
put back together in more logical fashion, and not published in an
international magazine.
When WOULD a child make a decision for herself to play in traffic or to "have
unfettered use of electronic media" ? (I'm guessing that the unfettered use
carried a motherly assumption of all kinds of porn and bomb-building and
violence, not the more-likely kid-sites like uptoten or neopets or a zoo webcam of
a baby giraffe, or whatever all's currently "zoocammed" this week. But even
if it's unfettered two-year-old use of a patterns game or coloring program,
where's the evil in "unfettered"? Fetters are not gotreme and not thought
through.
A two year old who is unlikely to be able to use the mouse well enough to
click on PuttPutt won't play long, and she certainly won't find objectional
websites. And if she does, she won't read them. <bwg>
But anyway, until children are given choices, they can't make decisions. And
even two year olds can be given choices. I've known a lot of two year olds,
and if I had one who would rather play in traffic than sit in my lap or hold
my hand, I would think there was something wrong with the life I was offering
her.
I read Holly a parental statement which had been posted in public, and her
response as an always-unschooled twelve-year-old was interesting. Here's that,
but they're also at
http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet
-=-This one is just almost too big for this page, so brace yourself:
If my kids had their way, they'd go barefoot outside of their own yard, run
in the street between cars, never take baths, never eat their veggies and
instead opt for chocolate cake every meal, mistreat animals, burn down the house
playing with matches, never go to bed, never brush their teeth, etc. -=-
And Holly's response:
I read that to Holly and she was speechless. Seriously mouth-open disbelief.
Then she asked "WHY would they burn the house down with matches?"
"The only reason her house is not burned down is because she has a rule
against playing with matches."
"So she can't even say 'You can play with matches but only in the front
driveway'?"
"Nope."
"So they'll never go to bed because they'll never get tired unless she tells
them they're tired?"
She asked me to read it to her again. I did. She looked at it and looked at
me and said with more feeling, "Why the hell would they run between cars in the
street!?"
------------------------
And so...
A child knows these things are nonsense, but adults who have reproduced can
go so far as to publish them for the "benefit" of other parents??
I believe some people just don't really think.
They justify.
They pull phrases from the other justifying parents around them to defend
their controlling behavior.
"It's for your own good."
"You'll thank me later."
Sometimes it's not good, they won't thank them, and the parents would have
done better to do more thinking and less talking.
Sandra
same topic.
<<There is no single statement that would cause all parents to realize the
benefits of removing limits. It takes many conversations and hearing or reading
stories of families where it is working. Maybe some people read one thing,
one time and totally change, but I needed to hear or read it over and over
before it made sense. It also took self examination for me to realize areas I was
setting limits without realizing it.
<<Mary Ellen>>
In the Life Learning post before this, I had quoted the end of a letter to
the editor who was thanking them for the anti-"machine" article.
This is the second of two pararaphs there:
-=-"I say, everything in balance, in its own developmentally appropriate
time. However, I am not about to let my two-year-old child play in traffic in the
name of freedom; nor will she have unfettered use of electronic media until
she can make that decision for herself."
-=-
Had that been posted here by its author, it might have been taken apart and
put back together in more logical fashion, and not published in an
international magazine.
When WOULD a child make a decision for herself to play in traffic or to "have
unfettered use of electronic media" ? (I'm guessing that the unfettered use
carried a motherly assumption of all kinds of porn and bomb-building and
violence, not the more-likely kid-sites like uptoten or neopets or a zoo webcam of
a baby giraffe, or whatever all's currently "zoocammed" this week. But even
if it's unfettered two-year-old use of a patterns game or coloring program,
where's the evil in "unfettered"? Fetters are not gotreme and not thought
through.
A two year old who is unlikely to be able to use the mouse well enough to
click on PuttPutt won't play long, and she certainly won't find objectional
websites. And if she does, she won't read them. <bwg>
But anyway, until children are given choices, they can't make decisions. And
even two year olds can be given choices. I've known a lot of two year olds,
and if I had one who would rather play in traffic than sit in my lap or hold
my hand, I would think there was something wrong with the life I was offering
her.
I read Holly a parental statement which had been posted in public, and her
response as an always-unschooled twelve-year-old was interesting. Here's that,
but they're also at
http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet
-=-This one is just almost too big for this page, so brace yourself:
If my kids had their way, they'd go barefoot outside of their own yard, run
in the street between cars, never take baths, never eat their veggies and
instead opt for chocolate cake every meal, mistreat animals, burn down the house
playing with matches, never go to bed, never brush their teeth, etc. -=-
And Holly's response:
I read that to Holly and she was speechless. Seriously mouth-open disbelief.
Then she asked "WHY would they burn the house down with matches?"
"The only reason her house is not burned down is because she has a rule
against playing with matches."
"So she can't even say 'You can play with matches but only in the front
driveway'?"
"Nope."
"So they'll never go to bed because they'll never get tired unless she tells
them they're tired?"
She asked me to read it to her again. I did. She looked at it and looked at
me and said with more feeling, "Why the hell would they run between cars in the
street!?"
------------------------
And so...
A child knows these things are nonsense, but adults who have reproduced can
go so far as to publish them for the "benefit" of other parents??
I believe some people just don't really think.
They justify.
They pull phrases from the other justifying parents around them to defend
their controlling behavior.
"It's for your own good."
"You'll thank me later."
Sometimes it's not good, they won't thank them, and the parents would have
done better to do more thinking and less talking.
Sandra
[email protected]
I don't yet subscribe to Life Learning, but reading what you all are writing
about sort of made me smile. I find myself going through the stages of
teaching myself to "let go" with my children. And, of course, I do not mean this
literally.... but figuratively. Letting go of all my "rules". As a new parent
years ago, I told myself I would never be over controlling with ridiculous
rules set, simply for the sake of setting a rule. But as years went on, I had
quite a few. Perhaps not to the extent many other parents had them, but enough
to be overbearing. But over the past 6 months that I've been homeschooling, I
have made concious efforts to lay off, and I've seen wonderful changes in
both my children. Recently (this past week) my son (8) has again been asking me
to get his ear pierced. This is something I've adamently said no too for
years now. He's been asking since he was 4. But, after talking with him I've
realized it's just something he really wants, so why the heck not? Having been
asking for 4 years, clearly it's something he feels he needs for his own
self-expression. So, this coming week, I'm going to take him and have it done.
I've only ever said no, because I didn't (don't) think a young boy looks
appropriate with one. But who am I to judge?? I have find my ways of thinking
changing over these months, and I truly think it's for the better.
As for 2-3 year olds having freedom of choice... well, ya'll should meet my 3
year old daughter!!! hahaha She demands freedom of choice and always has.
My son is very much "mommy's boy" and is much more needy. But my daughter is a
true free spirit and has ALWAYS been very independant and self-reliant. When
she asks for something you learn very quickly to ask her for DETAILS in how
she wants it, otherwise you have a full fledged temper tantrum on hand. I
don't find this catering or spoiling either. (as many others try to tell me it
is) I view it as allowing her to be herself. And being Stephanie means,
knowing what, when, where, why, and how she wants things. Example: she asks for a
drink. You can't just get up and assume what she wants. I ask her "what
would you like to drink? Ok, which cup do you want that in today? How much do you
want? Alot or a little?" Simple enough, I think. She gets just what she's
wanting, and I don't get to hear her screaming because I "DID IT WRONG!"
I've become very aware of the changes in my parenting. And have become
reminded of how much I despised my own parents during my teen years when they were
so overbearing (they called it being "protective") that I was not allowed out
of the house after dark, even if it was winter and dark at 3:30pm. All my
calls were monitored (meaning listened in on by a 2nd phone line), and never
allowed sleep overs and etc etc. I can't bear to be that way with my own kids.
Well thanks for listening all.... I'm SO thrilled I found this group!
Emily
Wife to Chris, mom to Joshua and Stephanie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about sort of made me smile. I find myself going through the stages of
teaching myself to "let go" with my children. And, of course, I do not mean this
literally.... but figuratively. Letting go of all my "rules". As a new parent
years ago, I told myself I would never be over controlling with ridiculous
rules set, simply for the sake of setting a rule. But as years went on, I had
quite a few. Perhaps not to the extent many other parents had them, but enough
to be overbearing. But over the past 6 months that I've been homeschooling, I
have made concious efforts to lay off, and I've seen wonderful changes in
both my children. Recently (this past week) my son (8) has again been asking me
to get his ear pierced. This is something I've adamently said no too for
years now. He's been asking since he was 4. But, after talking with him I've
realized it's just something he really wants, so why the heck not? Having been
asking for 4 years, clearly it's something he feels he needs for his own
self-expression. So, this coming week, I'm going to take him and have it done.
I've only ever said no, because I didn't (don't) think a young boy looks
appropriate with one. But who am I to judge?? I have find my ways of thinking
changing over these months, and I truly think it's for the better.
As for 2-3 year olds having freedom of choice... well, ya'll should meet my 3
year old daughter!!! hahaha She demands freedom of choice and always has.
My son is very much "mommy's boy" and is much more needy. But my daughter is a
true free spirit and has ALWAYS been very independant and self-reliant. When
she asks for something you learn very quickly to ask her for DETAILS in how
she wants it, otherwise you have a full fledged temper tantrum on hand. I
don't find this catering or spoiling either. (as many others try to tell me it
is) I view it as allowing her to be herself. And being Stephanie means,
knowing what, when, where, why, and how she wants things. Example: she asks for a
drink. You can't just get up and assume what she wants. I ask her "what
would you like to drink? Ok, which cup do you want that in today? How much do you
want? Alot or a little?" Simple enough, I think. She gets just what she's
wanting, and I don't get to hear her screaming because I "DID IT WRONG!"
I've become very aware of the changes in my parenting. And have become
reminded of how much I despised my own parents during my teen years when they were
so overbearing (they called it being "protective") that I was not allowed out
of the house after dark, even if it was winter and dark at 3:30pm. All my
calls were monitored (meaning listened in on by a 2nd phone line), and never
allowed sleep overs and etc etc. I can't bear to be that way with my own kids.
Well thanks for listening all.... I'm SO thrilled I found this group!
Emily
Wife to Chris, mom to Joshua and Stephanie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krisula Moyer
From Sandra's post---------------
Then she asked "WHY would they burn the house down with matches?"
"The only reason her house is not burned down is because she has a rule
against playing with matches."
"So she can't even say 'You can play with matches but only in the front
driveway'?"
"Nope."<<
I had an uncle who really did burn down the house with matches in the 50s.
It wasn't because he had "unfettered" access to them but because he was sure
no one would let him touch the intriguing things and so he hid in a closet
to try them out. Lots of heartache could have been spared if a trusted
adult would've said: "Sure you can strike the matches. Let's go out and do
it in the driveway where nothing can catch fire." (No one was hurt but the
house burned to the ground)
>>And Holly's response:I read that to Holly and she was speechless. Seriously mouth-open disbelief.
Then she asked "WHY would they burn the house down with matches?"
"The only reason her house is not burned down is because she has a rule
against playing with matches."
"So she can't even say 'You can play with matches but only in the front
driveway'?"
"Nope."<<
I had an uncle who really did burn down the house with matches in the 50s.
It wasn't because he had "unfettered" access to them but because he was sure
no one would let him touch the intriguing things and so he hid in a closet
to try them out. Lots of heartache could have been spared if a trusted
adult would've said: "Sure you can strike the matches. Let's go out and do
it in the driveway where nothing can catch fire." (No one was hurt but the
house burned to the ground)
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/04 12:23:24 AM, MomandMe2@... writes:
<< And have become
reminded of how much I despised my own parents during my teen years when they
were
so overbearing (they called it being "protective") that I was not allowed out
of the house after dark, even if it was winter and dark at 3:30pm. All my
calls were monitored (meaning listened in on by a 2nd phone line), and never
allowed sleep overs and etc etc. I can't bear to be that way with my own
kids. >>
That is so harsh.
I had a best friend who was similarly sheltered. I don't think the monitored
phone calls, but they told her to hurry up and get off the phone the second
she got on, and when we were sixteen and she asked "Can I go for a coke with
Sandra?" her mom said "We have cokes here."
I was thinking yesterday (as I watered the yard, a good thinking time) about
people who will say things like "Oh, you're just reacting to the way your own
parents treated you and you'll just do the opposite."
Funny how people who are making those claims so often use the grating word
"just."
If we don't react to the way we were raised, if we don't look to our own
personal experiences for good and bad examples, then how WILL we decide? By
buying a book with a pretty cover? Letting friends at church or a parenting group
bully us into doing what they're doing without understanding why?
There are WAY worse ways of deciding how to be with children than the careful
examination of our childhood memories combined with the conscious observation
of them now, today, in their own environments.
Sandra
<< And have become
reminded of how much I despised my own parents during my teen years when they
were
so overbearing (they called it being "protective") that I was not allowed out
of the house after dark, even if it was winter and dark at 3:30pm. All my
calls were monitored (meaning listened in on by a 2nd phone line), and never
allowed sleep overs and etc etc. I can't bear to be that way with my own
kids. >>
That is so harsh.
I had a best friend who was similarly sheltered. I don't think the monitored
phone calls, but they told her to hurry up and get off the phone the second
she got on, and when we were sixteen and she asked "Can I go for a coke with
Sandra?" her mom said "We have cokes here."
I was thinking yesterday (as I watered the yard, a good thinking time) about
people who will say things like "Oh, you're just reacting to the way your own
parents treated you and you'll just do the opposite."
Funny how people who are making those claims so often use the grating word
"just."
If we don't react to the way we were raised, if we don't look to our own
personal experiences for good and bad examples, then how WILL we decide? By
buying a book with a pretty cover? Letting friends at church or a parenting group
bully us into doing what they're doing without understanding why?
There are WAY worse ways of deciding how to be with children than the careful
examination of our childhood memories combined with the conscious observation
of them now, today, in their own environments.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/04 10:38:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
from our own childhood, then whats wrong with that?? What I don't understand
is why so many think that it makes more sense to raise children with fear,
rather than love and respect. Rigid rules, with no explanation for them other
than "because I said so." It's mind boggling to me. I actually go through
this with my children's father.
Insert question here: Does anyone else out there have this dilemna?? Where
one parent is for unschooling and the other is not??? If so, how do you find
middle ground?
My hubby has a VERY different outlook on parenting than I do, and it makes it
very hard for all of us. He'll often say no to them for the simplest of
things, and, my son especially, will ask "why?" and all he can say is "because I
said so." Now this leaves my son confused, as I am the total opposite. I
often allow them the things hubby says no too, and I always offer a valid
explanation should I have to say no to something. I find lately that both my children
are much more gravitated towards me, and will now say things like, "I don't
want to stay home with daddy, can't I go with you?" This is starting to break
my heart, and dad's also. I've tried discussing things with hubby, but he
just doesn't understand where my feelings/views come from.
Any advice here would be warmly welcomed and appreciated!
Thanks,
Emily
Wife to Chris, mom to Joshua and Stephanie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> If we don't react to the way we were raised, if we don't look to our ownAbsolutely Sandra! We all learn by example, and if that means taking example
> personal experiences for good and bad examples, then how WILL we decide?
from our own childhood, then whats wrong with that?? What I don't understand
is why so many think that it makes more sense to raise children with fear,
rather than love and respect. Rigid rules, with no explanation for them other
than "because I said so." It's mind boggling to me. I actually go through
this with my children's father.
Insert question here: Does anyone else out there have this dilemna?? Where
one parent is for unschooling and the other is not??? If so, how do you find
middle ground?
My hubby has a VERY different outlook on parenting than I do, and it makes it
very hard for all of us. He'll often say no to them for the simplest of
things, and, my son especially, will ask "why?" and all he can say is "because I
said so." Now this leaves my son confused, as I am the total opposite. I
often allow them the things hubby says no too, and I always offer a valid
explanation should I have to say no to something. I find lately that both my children
are much more gravitated towards me, and will now say things like, "I don't
want to stay home with daddy, can't I go with you?" This is starting to break
my heart, and dad's also. I've tried discussing things with hubby, but he
just doesn't understand where my feelings/views come from.
Any advice here would be warmly welcomed and appreciated!
Thanks,
Emily
Wife to Chris, mom to Joshua and Stephanie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Jul 4, 2004, at 5:10 AM, Krisula Moyer wrote:
our school - hiding behind it and playing with matches. Mikey's mom
used to slap his hand all the time - he'd reach for something, she'd
slap his hand. I have such a vivid memory of that - it happened so
often. Mikey also swallowed a full bottle of St. Joseph's Children's
Aspirin - those sweet, soft little pink ones. Had to have his stomach
pumped.
I got in trouble at school for playing with a magnifying glass -
burning holes in leaves. I did it out in the middle of the asphalt far
far away from any buildings. It was the only time I ever got into
trouble in elementary school - I was traumatized by having to go sit in
the hall outside the principal's office where the "bad" kids always
sat. When kids in our homeschooling group wanted to play with
magnifying glasses and fire it was great - parents brought them stuff
to do it with - tinder and a variety of magnifying glasses. It made me
so happy.
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
> I had an uncle who really did burn down the house with matches in theMy next-door neighbor, a boy named, "Mikey," burned down a building at
> 50s.
> It wasn't because he had "unfettered" access to them but because he
> was sure
> no one would let him touch the intriguing things and so he hid in a
> closet
> to try them out. Lots of heartache could have been spared if a trusted
> adult would've said: "Sure you can strike the matches. Let's go out
> and do
> it in the driveway where nothing can catch fire." (No one was hurt
> but the
> house burned to the ground)
our school - hiding behind it and playing with matches. Mikey's mom
used to slap his hand all the time - he'd reach for something, she'd
slap his hand. I have such a vivid memory of that - it happened so
often. Mikey also swallowed a full bottle of St. Joseph's Children's
Aspirin - those sweet, soft little pink ones. Had to have his stomach
pumped.
I got in trouble at school for playing with a magnifying glass -
burning holes in leaves. I did it out in the middle of the asphalt far
far away from any buildings. It was the only time I ever got into
trouble in elementary school - I was traumatized by having to go sit in
the hall outside the principal's office where the "bad" kids always
sat. When kids in our homeschooling group wanted to play with
magnifying glasses and fire it was great - parents brought them stuff
to do it with - tinder and a variety of magnifying glasses. It made me
so happy.
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/04 6:30:06 AM, krisulam@... writes:
<< I had an uncle who really did burn down the house with matches in the 50s.
It wasn't because he had "unfettered" access to them but because he was sure
no one would let him touch the intriguing things and so he hid in a closet
to try them out. >>
Poor guy, to live with that memory all those years. And I bet the mom never
felt guilty or considered it her fault, and that he always DID consider his
natural need to know (not just "desire" to know, or "urge to play with matches,"
but his real human *NEED* to know) to be a flaw, a failure, "disobedience."
How much cheaper and safer it is to just let a kid light some friggin'
matches.
Isn't that a weird idea, "unfettered access"?
I never bought a kid a case of stick matches and said "Here, whenever and
wherever you're ready..." But neither have I ever felt the need to hide
matches. The "secret" (if it's secret) or the trick (if it's a trick) is being with
the children when they ask, finding them a safe place, a candle to light, a
good place to put the still-hot matches; answering their questions; telling real
stories about kids and property being hurt, and what they might do if things
go wrong (cold water on burns, blankets to smother flames--don't worry about
the blanket, call 911 if you can't get the fire out...)
Information.
Sharing.
Trust.
Happiness.
Unfettered happiness.
Sandra
<< I had an uncle who really did burn down the house with matches in the 50s.
It wasn't because he had "unfettered" access to them but because he was sure
no one would let him touch the intriguing things and so he hid in a closet
to try them out. >>
Poor guy, to live with that memory all those years. And I bet the mom never
felt guilty or considered it her fault, and that he always DID consider his
natural need to know (not just "desire" to know, or "urge to play with matches,"
but his real human *NEED* to know) to be a flaw, a failure, "disobedience."
How much cheaper and safer it is to just let a kid light some friggin'
matches.
Isn't that a weird idea, "unfettered access"?
I never bought a kid a case of stick matches and said "Here, whenever and
wherever you're ready..." But neither have I ever felt the need to hide
matches. The "secret" (if it's secret) or the trick (if it's a trick) is being with
the children when they ask, finding them a safe place, a candle to light, a
good place to put the still-hot matches; answering their questions; telling real
stories about kids and property being hurt, and what they might do if things
go wrong (cold water on burns, blankets to smother flames--don't worry about
the blanket, call 911 if you can't get the fire out...)
Information.
Sharing.
Trust.
Happiness.
Unfettered happiness.
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
<<<My hubby has a VERY different outlook on parenting than I do, and it
makes it very hard for all of us. >>>
This is wild, almost exactly the same discussion happening on
UnschoolingBasics with another wife who wrote almost those exact words.
I'm going to cut and paste some of what I replied there (sorry to be dull
for those on both lists) :
There is a message board for Dads at www.unschooling.com and there is a
workshop for Dads at the Live and Learn Conference. My dh really enjoyed
that experience. There were some reluctant spouses there, but since the men
agreed to keep the content of the meeting confidential that is the extent of
my knowledge about the event.
There is also a message board about dealing with reluctant relatives there
too.
My dh is not reluctant by any means, and "gets it" totally. However he
sometimes is complacent, whereas I am always seeking to become more deeply
immersed in Unschooling and increase my awareness and mindfulness.
I have tried to give my dh articles, but I found out that he was
interpreting my giving him the suggestion to read stuff as a criticism of
himself. So it was making him sad, grumpy and defensive instead of open to
the ideas in the article or book. Now if I find something I think he would
appreciate, I talk to him about it first. I found he would not read a whole
book, but sometimes will look at highlighted passages. Sometimes I just read
bits out loud to him, after asking if he wants to hear it.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
makes it very hard for all of us. >>>
This is wild, almost exactly the same discussion happening on
UnschoolingBasics with another wife who wrote almost those exact words.
I'm going to cut and paste some of what I replied there (sorry to be dull
for those on both lists) :
There is a message board for Dads at www.unschooling.com and there is a
workshop for Dads at the Live and Learn Conference. My dh really enjoyed
that experience. There were some reluctant spouses there, but since the men
agreed to keep the content of the meeting confidential that is the extent of
my knowledge about the event.
There is also a message board about dealing with reluctant relatives there
too.
My dh is not reluctant by any means, and "gets it" totally. However he
sometimes is complacent, whereas I am always seeking to become more deeply
immersed in Unschooling and increase my awareness and mindfulness.
I have tried to give my dh articles, but I found out that he was
interpreting my giving him the suggestion to read stuff as a criticism of
himself. So it was making him sad, grumpy and defensive instead of open to
the ideas in the article or book. Now if I find something I think he would
appreciate, I talk to him about it first. I found he would not read a whole
book, but sometimes will look at highlighted passages. Sometimes I just read
bits out loud to him, after asking if he wants to hear it.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/04 2:40:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
checking into that site. Even if he just quietly reads in the sidelines.
Emily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
> I'm going to cut and paste some of what I replied thereThanks so much Robyn. I'll talk to Chris and see if he'd be interested in
checking into that site. Even if he just quietly reads in the sidelines.
Emily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
NOT "unfettered access" but I have this urge to get a button that
says that and wear it everywhere I go.
We could all get them and then we'd recognize each other...and we'd
never explain it to anyone!!! (cue evil laughter)
--aj, who probably should note she's been home with sick kids for a
week
> Isn't that a weird idea, "unfettered access"?whenever and
>
> I never bought a kid a case of stick matches and said "Here,
> wherever you're ready..."Okay, Sandra, I know you're making the point that what you do is
NOT "unfettered access" but I have this urge to get a button that
says that and wear it everywhere I go.
We could all get them and then we'd recognize each other...and we'd
never explain it to anyone!!! (cue evil laughter)
--aj, who probably should note she's been home with sick kids for a
week
Jeanne Goodman
Ok, matches are one thing... My dd asked (jokingly) if she could bring an electric appliance into the tub with her. (When she was three she wanted to see if that key would fit into the electric socket. I found out when she screamed. I she learned that lesson the hard way.)
How can you allow safe experiences with dangerous things like these? I'd kinda like to let them see the conductivity and dangerous combination of electricity and water, but don't know how to manage that.
Jeanne
How can you allow safe experiences with dangerous things like these? I'd kinda like to let them see the conductivity and dangerous combination of electricity and water, but don't know how to manage that.
Jeanne
----- Original Message -----
From: mamaaj2000
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 20:24
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: kids making decisions for themselves
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Isn't that a weird idea, "unfettered access"?
>
> I never bought a kid a case of stick matches and said "Here,
whenever and wherever you're ready..."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/04 10:38:56 PM, goodmanj@... writes:
<< My dd asked (jokingly) if she could bring an electric appliance into the
tub with her.
How can you allow safe experiences with dangerous things like these? >>
She was joking.
I probably would have said "Not today. Save it until you really want to die
a stinky, sparkly death, and you might want to call news crews beforehand. "
Truth doesn't have to be delivered in a lecturely deadpan way.
-=-(When she was three she wanted to see if that key would fit into the
electric socket. I found out when she screamed. I she learned that lesson the hard
way.)-=-
I told kids from before they spoke any language themselves that the outlets
were "owies," and "careful!" They saw me plug things in and take them out, and
I would talk to them. "I'm going to hold the plug here and not pull it by
the cord, because if the cord breaks it can shock us." We had outlet covers at
first, when we only had one and two kids, but by the time Holly came along we
weren't using them. (Probably it was because we had filled the house up more
and they were all full of plugs.)
Holly's sitting here and I jsut asked her if she ever remembered outlet
covers.
No.
I asked if she had ever stuck anything in an outlet and she said once, a My
Little Pony. But it didn't fit. She said it was in the hallway at a
homeschooling conference in Colorado. She and her friend were playing with their
Ponies, and one had a unicorn horn and she was pretending it needed to be charged
back up. It didn't fit in the outlet, and it was plastic anyway, but she says
I said sharply, "DON'T do that."
I asked her if she would've stuck something metal in and she said no.
(Kind of a stupid question on my part since she had plenty of opportunity.)
I think kids HAVE to experiment, and parents say "no" too much.
If parents say no about everything, kids can tend to ignore them. If you
save no for the really truly dangerous and important things, then "no" is
powerful. If every day has a soundtrack of "no, no, no, don't, stop," kids stop
hearing it.
-=-I'd kinda like to let them see the conductivity and dangerous combination
of electricity and water, but don't know how to manage that.-=-
Maybe just stories and maybe photos of electrocutions. Maybe you know
someone who's worked for the power company and could tell stories, but maybe there's
stuff on the internet, too.
Sandra
<< My dd asked (jokingly) if she could bring an electric appliance into the
tub with her.
How can you allow safe experiences with dangerous things like these? >>
She was joking.
I probably would have said "Not today. Save it until you really want to die
a stinky, sparkly death, and you might want to call news crews beforehand. "
Truth doesn't have to be delivered in a lecturely deadpan way.
-=-(When she was three she wanted to see if that key would fit into the
electric socket. I found out when she screamed. I she learned that lesson the hard
way.)-=-
I told kids from before they spoke any language themselves that the outlets
were "owies," and "careful!" They saw me plug things in and take them out, and
I would talk to them. "I'm going to hold the plug here and not pull it by
the cord, because if the cord breaks it can shock us." We had outlet covers at
first, when we only had one and two kids, but by the time Holly came along we
weren't using them. (Probably it was because we had filled the house up more
and they were all full of plugs.)
Holly's sitting here and I jsut asked her if she ever remembered outlet
covers.
No.
I asked if she had ever stuck anything in an outlet and she said once, a My
Little Pony. But it didn't fit. She said it was in the hallway at a
homeschooling conference in Colorado. She and her friend were playing with their
Ponies, and one had a unicorn horn and she was pretending it needed to be charged
back up. It didn't fit in the outlet, and it was plastic anyway, but she says
I said sharply, "DON'T do that."
I asked her if she would've stuck something metal in and she said no.
(Kind of a stupid question on my part since she had plenty of opportunity.)
I think kids HAVE to experiment, and parents say "no" too much.
If parents say no about everything, kids can tend to ignore them. If you
save no for the really truly dangerous and important things, then "no" is
powerful. If every day has a soundtrack of "no, no, no, don't, stop," kids stop
hearing it.
-=-I'd kinda like to let them see the conductivity and dangerous combination
of electricity and water, but don't know how to manage that.-=-
Maybe just stories and maybe photos of electrocutions. Maybe you know
someone who's worked for the power company and could tell stories, but maybe there's
stuff on the internet, too.
Sandra
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
him (and calling him Baby in front of his friends) when the kids were
climbing a small tree and he just ignored her or snapped at her. Next
day when I had the kids without their parents (muuuuch better, I'm
sorry to say), the boy climbed high and far trying to do something
another kid had been able to do and he was starting to look nervous
and I just quietly said "I'm not sure that's a good idea" and he
immediately got back to where he was comfortable.
Why do so many people overestimate their kids' ability (not to
mention desire) to conform happily and underestimate the kids'
skills, both mental and physical?
I laughed at my mom the other day when she, prompted by some story I
was telling about my kids, told me "Your father and I could never get
you to understand that when you dropped food on the floor, it went
somewhere!" As in, someone had to pick it up then or later.
Little babies drop food off their high chairs and watch it fall; I
just didn't care! Even if I was the one who had to pick it up later...
And I underestimated my son's ability to understand money. I'd posted
that when I told him something was expensive he'd just whine that we
should buy it for $1 (he's 3.5, why should he understand, lol). Well,
I decided to try the allowance idea and started giving him $5 a week
to spend on Thomas toys. He's up to $15 and hasn't bought anything.
He looks online and in the catalogs, reads the prices to me, and we
talk about whether he can afford it or how many weeks he would have
to wait. He's stopped complaining, which has made it a million times
easier for me to enjoy the shopping process.
--aj
> I think kids HAVE to experiment, and parents say "no" too much.If you
> If parents say no about everything, kids can tend to ignore them.
> save no for the really truly dangerous and important things,then "no" is
> powerful. If every day has a soundtrack of "no, no, no, don't,stop," kids stop
> hearing it.That happened with a neighbor and her son. She just kept fussing at
him (and calling him Baby in front of his friends) when the kids were
climbing a small tree and he just ignored her or snapped at her. Next
day when I had the kids without their parents (muuuuch better, I'm
sorry to say), the boy climbed high and far trying to do something
another kid had been able to do and he was starting to look nervous
and I just quietly said "I'm not sure that's a good idea" and he
immediately got back to where he was comfortable.
Why do so many people overestimate their kids' ability (not to
mention desire) to conform happily and underestimate the kids'
skills, both mental and physical?
I laughed at my mom the other day when she, prompted by some story I
was telling about my kids, told me "Your father and I could never get
you to understand that when you dropped food on the floor, it went
somewhere!" As in, someone had to pick it up then or later.
Little babies drop food off their high chairs and watch it fall; I
just didn't care! Even if I was the one who had to pick it up later...
And I underestimated my son's ability to understand money. I'd posted
that when I told him something was expensive he'd just whine that we
should buy it for $1 (he's 3.5, why should he understand, lol). Well,
I decided to try the allowance idea and started giving him $5 a week
to spend on Thomas toys. He's up to $15 and hasn't bought anything.
He looks online and in the catalogs, reads the prices to me, and we
talk about whether he can afford it or how many weeks he would have
to wait. He's stopped complaining, which has made it a million times
easier for me to enjoy the shopping process.
--aj
Sara
He's up to $15 and hasn't bought anything. He looks online and in the
catalogs, reads the prices to me, and we talk about whether he can
afford it or how many weeks he would have to wait. He's stopped
complaining --aj
Zounds! We went through the same thing with Thomas ten years ago :).
I'm a firm believer of giving kids extra money without strings. I've
had nothing but good results, even my "holey pocket" kid managed to
learn the value of $20. (Although it did take him until 16 to do it.
The gas tank....:) Sara
catalogs, reads the prices to me, and we talk about whether he can
afford it or how many weeks he would have to wait. He's stopped
complaining --aj
Zounds! We went through the same thing with Thomas ten years ago :).
I'm a firm believer of giving kids extra money without strings. I've
had nothing but good results, even my "holey pocket" kid managed to
learn the value of $20. (Although it did take him until 16 to do it.
The gas tank....:) Sara
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/5/04 2:17:24 PM, mamaaj2000@... writes:
<< Why do so many people overestimate their kids' ability (not to
mention desire) to conform happily and underestimate the kids'
skills, both mental and physical? >>
Because they were underestimated?
<< Why do so many people overestimate their kids' ability (not to
mention desire) to conform happily and underestimate the kids'
skills, both mental and physical? >>
Because they were underestimated?
Sara
"Because they were underestimated?"
Yeah...it's hard to break that cycle. I'm just glad through
unschooling that kids can be respected, can be allowed emotions, can
be encouraged to do and feel what makes them happy, content, or
healthy. My son still sometimes questions our unschooling because he
thinks that they're doing something in that building he should be
doing but when we discuss it and talk pros and cons, it's so obvious
he's more mature, self sufficent, and innocent of the bullying and
damage that comes from it......it's worth every uncertain moment I've
ever had to see him with good self esteem and a sense of worthiness.
He could have been a very misunderstood, miserable lump of a child if
it wasn't for unschooling.
Yeah...it's hard to break that cycle. I'm just glad through
unschooling that kids can be respected, can be allowed emotions, can
be encouraged to do and feel what makes them happy, content, or
healthy. My son still sometimes questions our unschooling because he
thinks that they're doing something in that building he should be
doing but when we discuss it and talk pros and cons, it's so obvious
he's more mature, self sufficent, and innocent of the bullying and
damage that comes from it......it's worth every uncertain moment I've
ever had to see him with good self esteem and a sense of worthiness.
He could have been a very misunderstood, miserable lump of a child if
it wasn't for unschooling.
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/5/04 9:11:28 PM, cheeps4u@... writes:
<< it's so obvious
he's more mature, self sufficent, and innocent of the bullying and
damage that comes from it......it's worth every uncertain moment I've
ever had to see him with good self esteem and a sense of worthiness. >>
I see those things in my children. And I also see an innocense and
willingness to "be immature" in a sweet way. Not immature, but playful. Amazed. Not
jaded.
Though Holly has watched R rated movies (not *all* of them, not
indiscriminately), she's still willing to watch Teletubbies and Arthur. They're not on a
continuum, where they grasp the new thing and reject the old to prove they're
"old enough."
It's like being a different species.
When things like that have been said before (once not too long ago on
unschooling.com, when someone described how very different unschoolers she knows
are), some schoolkids and teachers go near-ballistic about denying it.
Sure there are some school kids who have joy and wonder.
There are some unschooled kids who are cynical.
Those are exceptions, in my experience.
Sandra
<< it's so obvious
he's more mature, self sufficent, and innocent of the bullying and
damage that comes from it......it's worth every uncertain moment I've
ever had to see him with good self esteem and a sense of worthiness. >>
I see those things in my children. And I also see an innocense and
willingness to "be immature" in a sweet way. Not immature, but playful. Amazed. Not
jaded.
Though Holly has watched R rated movies (not *all* of them, not
indiscriminately), she's still willing to watch Teletubbies and Arthur. They're not on a
continuum, where they grasp the new thing and reject the old to prove they're
"old enough."
It's like being a different species.
When things like that have been said before (once not too long ago on
unschooling.com, when someone described how very different unschoolers she knows
are), some schoolkids and teachers go near-ballistic about denying it.
Sure there are some school kids who have joy and wonder.
There are some unschooled kids who are cynical.
Those are exceptions, in my experience.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/5/04 11:11:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
cheeps4u@... writes:
free form learning. For several months he constantly would say "shouldn't we
be doing school?" Friends and family constantly asking "what work did you do
today?" didn't help the situation. But whenever he questions things we sit
and discuss the differences between public school and home school, and also the
philosophy of unschooling. He's always reassured once we talk things
through. It's taking time, but I'm slowly (but surely) seeing the positive effects
as he's debrainwashed from what 3 years in public schools did to him.
Emily
Wife to Chris, Mom to Joshua (8) and Stephanie (3)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cheeps4u@... writes:
> My son still sometimes questions our unschooling because heBecause we are so new to home/un-schooling my son is still at unease with our
> thinks that they're doing something in that building he should be
> doing
free form learning. For several months he constantly would say "shouldn't we
be doing school?" Friends and family constantly asking "what work did you do
today?" didn't help the situation. But whenever he questions things we sit
and discuss the differences between public school and home school, and also the
philosophy of unschooling. He's always reassured once we talk things
through. It's taking time, but I'm slowly (but surely) seeing the positive effects
as he's debrainwashed from what 3 years in public schools did to him.
Emily
Wife to Chris, Mom to Joshua (8) and Stephanie (3)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/5/2004 2:05:18 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I asked her if she would've stuck something metal in and she said no.
(Kind of a stupid question on my part since she had plenty of opportunity.)
~~~
I had the opportunity in 5th grade and I took it.
I was in one of those "open classrooms" of the '60s. We were allowed to
just "be", until it was time to do math. ;) The 5 teachers had divided the
large room up into areas with tables and those cubicle dividers so you could
have quiet activity over here and loud activity over there. I was sitting under
one of the tables against the wall, by myself, no one around. I was playing
imaginary games with absolutely nothing around me, except a single paper
clip, and the electrical outlet.
I stuck the paper clip in without even thinking about it. It bit me of
course, and I remember it all very clearly, and I never did it again.
Tuck
I knew better. Did it anyway.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
I asked her if she would've stuck something metal in and she said no.
(Kind of a stupid question on my part since she had plenty of opportunity.)
~~~
I had the opportunity in 5th grade and I took it.
I was in one of those "open classrooms" of the '60s. We were allowed to
just "be", until it was time to do math. ;) The 5 teachers had divided the
large room up into areas with tables and those cubicle dividers so you could
have quiet activity over here and loud activity over there. I was sitting under
one of the tables against the wall, by myself, no one around. I was playing
imaginary games with absolutely nothing around me, except a single paper
clip, and the electrical outlet.
I stuck the paper clip in without even thinking about it. It bit me of
course, and I remember it all very clearly, and I never did it again.
Tuck
I knew better. Did it anyway.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/2004 1:35:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
MomandMe2@... writes:
I find lately that both my children
are much more gravitated towards me, and will now say things like, "I don't
want to stay home with daddy, can't I go with you?" This is starting to
break
my heart, and dad's also. I've tried discussing things with hubby, but he
just doesn't understand where my feelings/views come from.
Any advice here would be warmly welcomed and appreciated!
The same thing happened with my children. They DID do some things with
their dad but clearly choose to spend their time with me. We parent VERY
differently. He never really was fully "on board" with the children having a choice
on going to school or not. He just accepted that they were engaged in
something fun or exciting and he didn't say much about it for the most part.
I tried to include him as much a possible but sometimes it was better and
easier and more fun if we just let him be at whatever he was doing at the time.
Fast forward, my children are now 16, almost 20, 21 and 24, they still
prefer my company and will choose to be with me. I think because I am WITH them
when they are here. DH is HERE but might be clicking away on his laptop or
sort of watching a movie and tends to really know little about what is going on
if it doesn't directly include him.
He gets VERY jealous of the relationship I have with the children. I've
tried over the years to include him in everything we do but the truth is that I
often felt like a single parent in a two adult household. The "because I
said so" routine was not acceptable to me, but was to him.
I feel badly for him, I would be hurt beyond words if I were in his shoes
and had the relationship with the children that he does.
He GIVES them THINGS not time. Which is good and his non stop working has
provided us with the means to do just about everything we've wanted to
explore. I much would have rather he been more "plugged in" to us as a family but
it just didn't happen.
On a recent family trip with all of us, four hotel rooms, same floor, made
an "executive decision" that I was no longer available after 10:00 PM as a
mother, unless their hair was on fire they were not to call me or come to my
room. The girls and I were laying across the bed in my room and the boys would
come up the hall every now and again to relate some information or talk about
something we might do the next day.
Nothing that was of great importance to him but to them it was. They could
have all been out having fun doing something together or apart but were happy
to just hang out at the hotel and be in and out of my room.
I felt sad for him that he felt so left out or less loved or less a part of
our family. But at that moment I also knew that HE created this atmosphere
for himself. Years of his own detaching from them and "allowing" me to do
"whatever I think is best" got him to this point.
I have been extra careful to pay more attention to him as my husband after
this, but the children feel no such inclination to try to be more attentive or
inclusive of him, probably from years of experience of him nodding and not
hearing or simply "not having the time".
I don't know how you could "force" a husband to be more fully a father. Not
just in the sense of providing and playing or even feeding, changing diapers
or bathing. You have to CONNECT on a much deeper level than just a child
care provider, sadly my DH still does NOT get this.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MomandMe2@... writes:
I find lately that both my children
are much more gravitated towards me, and will now say things like, "I don't
want to stay home with daddy, can't I go with you?" This is starting to
break
my heart, and dad's also. I've tried discussing things with hubby, but he
just doesn't understand where my feelings/views come from.
Any advice here would be warmly welcomed and appreciated!
The same thing happened with my children. They DID do some things with
their dad but clearly choose to spend their time with me. We parent VERY
differently. He never really was fully "on board" with the children having a choice
on going to school or not. He just accepted that they were engaged in
something fun or exciting and he didn't say much about it for the most part.
I tried to include him as much a possible but sometimes it was better and
easier and more fun if we just let him be at whatever he was doing at the time.
Fast forward, my children are now 16, almost 20, 21 and 24, they still
prefer my company and will choose to be with me. I think because I am WITH them
when they are here. DH is HERE but might be clicking away on his laptop or
sort of watching a movie and tends to really know little about what is going on
if it doesn't directly include him.
He gets VERY jealous of the relationship I have with the children. I've
tried over the years to include him in everything we do but the truth is that I
often felt like a single parent in a two adult household. The "because I
said so" routine was not acceptable to me, but was to him.
I feel badly for him, I would be hurt beyond words if I were in his shoes
and had the relationship with the children that he does.
He GIVES them THINGS not time. Which is good and his non stop working has
provided us with the means to do just about everything we've wanted to
explore. I much would have rather he been more "plugged in" to us as a family but
it just didn't happen.
On a recent family trip with all of us, four hotel rooms, same floor, made
an "executive decision" that I was no longer available after 10:00 PM as a
mother, unless their hair was on fire they were not to call me or come to my
room. The girls and I were laying across the bed in my room and the boys would
come up the hall every now and again to relate some information or talk about
something we might do the next day.
Nothing that was of great importance to him but to them it was. They could
have all been out having fun doing something together or apart but were happy
to just hang out at the hotel and be in and out of my room.
I felt sad for him that he felt so left out or less loved or less a part of
our family. But at that moment I also knew that HE created this atmosphere
for himself. Years of his own detaching from them and "allowing" me to do
"whatever I think is best" got him to this point.
I have been extra careful to pay more attention to him as my husband after
this, but the children feel no such inclination to try to be more attentive or
inclusive of him, probably from years of experience of him nodding and not
hearing or simply "not having the time".
I don't know how you could "force" a husband to be more fully a father. Not
just in the sense of providing and playing or even feeding, changing diapers
or bathing. You have to CONNECT on a much deeper level than just a child
care provider, sadly my DH still does NOT get this.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** I don't know how you could "force" a husband to be more fully a
father. **
My grandma used to tell her husband "Honey, Virginia would really like
to go with you on your errand to the hardware store."
(Not advice that works for everyone. My son thinks a trip to the
hardware store qualifies as "torture" and is banned by the Geneva
convention. <g>)
But I think this works better when kids are younger and are honestly
thrilled to be in the presence of their father. Kids can be less
adoring and more critical once they hit the pre-teen years. I suppose
at older ages convincing the father to drive the kids (one on one) to
the places that the kids want to go is the way to implement this.
** He GIVES them THINGS not time.**
There are some books about "love languages" that talk about all of us
having different things that make us feel the most loved. I really
liked to be listened to, but some people prefer gifts or praise or being
touched or being waited on. It's an interesting topic to discuss with
your kids and then pass on the info to your husband. (Couldn't hurt
anyway.)
My son's at the age (10) where he prefers videogaming and squirt gun
battles with his dad over most anything he can do with me.
Betsy
PS Maybe going about this backwards and asking the kids to talk about
what they most enjoy/appreciate about their dad would be a good starting
point. (Kids are usually less critical than wives, I find, and value
even crumbs of attention.) This could be good positive feedback for a
father to know that "Eldest daughter thinks going to the zoo with you is
more fun than a day at the mall." Or "Youngest son thinks eating
pancakes and playing tickle monster is the best way to spend the way
with dad."
father. **
My grandma used to tell her husband "Honey, Virginia would really like
to go with you on your errand to the hardware store."
(Not advice that works for everyone. My son thinks a trip to the
hardware store qualifies as "torture" and is banned by the Geneva
convention. <g>)
But I think this works better when kids are younger and are honestly
thrilled to be in the presence of their father. Kids can be less
adoring and more critical once they hit the pre-teen years. I suppose
at older ages convincing the father to drive the kids (one on one) to
the places that the kids want to go is the way to implement this.
** He GIVES them THINGS not time.**
There are some books about "love languages" that talk about all of us
having different things that make us feel the most loved. I really
liked to be listened to, but some people prefer gifts or praise or being
touched or being waited on. It's an interesting topic to discuss with
your kids and then pass on the info to your husband. (Couldn't hurt
anyway.)
My son's at the age (10) where he prefers videogaming and squirt gun
battles with his dad over most anything he can do with me.
Betsy
PS Maybe going about this backwards and asking the kids to talk about
what they most enjoy/appreciate about their dad would be a good starting
point. (Kids are usually less critical than wives, I find, and value
even crumbs of attention.) This could be good positive feedback for a
father to know that "Eldest daughter thinks going to the zoo with you is
more fun than a day at the mall." Or "Youngest son thinks eating
pancakes and playing tickle monster is the best way to spend the way
with dad."
Sara
When I felt like my SO was losing touch with the kids, I'd ask him
what was bothering him about what we were doing. I would brace myself
for some criticism and it would come but then...after hearing some
fairly minor stuff, he'd eventually say what was really on his mind.
Lots of times it didn't have much to do with schooling of any kind.
It was usually a discipline issue or a misunderstanding about what to
expect out of the children. I always tried to keep my mouth shut and
not make any excuse or explaination until he was totally finished.
Then I'd say..."I'll think about what you've just told me and get
back with you. I need to think here."
He got to vent without me interfering and when I would talk to him
maybe the next day that's when I'd offer suggestions. I used the
gesell institute's age appropriate books and sometimes read them to
him then. He took this better than just my opinion. Over the years he
realized that I did research child behavior and didn't just come up
with excuses for problems.
My SO was brought up in a very strict household so he was very hard
to deal with sometimes...today he'll admit that what I did with the
kids was right but it took a few years for him to lighten up. My kids
could only be with him for a certain amount of hours before they had
had enough. I explained to them that Daddy had been brought up a
different way and he and I were different but that he loved them. I'd
then tell them some of the ways his parents treated he and his
siblings and why things were different now. That helped...kids have
no idea how things used to be....you have to give them some family
history sometimes even if it is sucky. I think even young kids can
empathize with that.
Looking back I wonder why I had to do all that but I guess it's the
way men were taught to view their children then. "Do as I say." Thank
the stars parenting practises have changed. There are many though
that still look back to the old ways...it takes a long time to
change. This has always been a sore spot with me since I believe
children deserve just as much respect as adults do. Sometimes I
wonder if we are making any head way....but we are; it's just
frustrating to deal with outdated, old fashioned emotional garbage.
Sara
what was bothering him about what we were doing. I would brace myself
for some criticism and it would come but then...after hearing some
fairly minor stuff, he'd eventually say what was really on his mind.
Lots of times it didn't have much to do with schooling of any kind.
It was usually a discipline issue or a misunderstanding about what to
expect out of the children. I always tried to keep my mouth shut and
not make any excuse or explaination until he was totally finished.
Then I'd say..."I'll think about what you've just told me and get
back with you. I need to think here."
He got to vent without me interfering and when I would talk to him
maybe the next day that's when I'd offer suggestions. I used the
gesell institute's age appropriate books and sometimes read them to
him then. He took this better than just my opinion. Over the years he
realized that I did research child behavior and didn't just come up
with excuses for problems.
My SO was brought up in a very strict household so he was very hard
to deal with sometimes...today he'll admit that what I did with the
kids was right but it took a few years for him to lighten up. My kids
could only be with him for a certain amount of hours before they had
had enough. I explained to them that Daddy had been brought up a
different way and he and I were different but that he loved them. I'd
then tell them some of the ways his parents treated he and his
siblings and why things were different now. That helped...kids have
no idea how things used to be....you have to give them some family
history sometimes even if it is sucky. I think even young kids can
empathize with that.
Looking back I wonder why I had to do all that but I guess it's the
way men were taught to view their children then. "Do as I say." Thank
the stars parenting practises have changed. There are many though
that still look back to the old ways...it takes a long time to
change. This has always been a sore spot with me since I believe
children deserve just as much respect as adults do. Sometimes I
wonder if we are making any head way....but we are; it's just
frustrating to deal with outdated, old fashioned emotional garbage.
Sara
Sara
I also see an innocence and willingness to "be immature" in a sweet
way. Not immature, but playful. Amazed. Not jaded. They're not on
a continuum, where they grasp the new thing and reject the old to
prove they're "old enough." It's like being a different species.
It's sad to think about how many kids are in the other species. And
the denial some teachers stay in...how can they know? But I have
teachers in a support group that are homeschooling...they want to
keep their jobs and they do see the differences....they are very torn
and I don't think they are very happy.
way. Not immature, but playful. Amazed. Not jaded. They're not on
a continuum, where they grasp the new thing and reject the old to
prove they're "old enough." It's like being a different species.
It's sad to think about how many kids are in the other species. And
the denial some teachers stay in...how can they know? But I have
teachers in a support group that are homeschooling...they want to
keep their jobs and they do see the differences....they are very torn
and I don't think they are very happy.
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
other day, I got him to laugh and then to play with ds, who was
trying so hard to get Papa to play. I leaned over and said to
dh "Pretend that his enthusiasm is infectious!"
--aj
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
> ** I don't know how you could "force" a husband to be more fully alike
> father. **
>
> My grandma used to tell her husband "Honey, Virginia would really
> to go with you on your errand to the hardware store."That tends to make my dh defensive--like he's being cornered. The
other day, I got him to laugh and then to play with ds, who was
trying so hard to get Papa to play. I leaned over and said to
dh "Pretend that his enthusiasm is infectious!"
--aj
Michelle
I also see an innocence and willingness to "be immature" in a sweet
way. Not immature, but playful. Amazed. Not jaded. They're not on
a continuum, where they grasp the new thing and reject the old to
prove they're "old enough." It's like being a different species.
Yesterday my 6yo son and his 7yo schooled cousin were in the bathroom washing their hands. We had learned that if you sing Twinkle Little Star, and wash you hands thru the entire song, that you wash long enough to kill all the germs, and my son like to sing anyway, so he loves to do this. His cousin looked at him and told him that it was a baby song. I felt so sad for him. My son still loves to sing the same songs I sang to him as an small child when he gets into bed at night. He does not choose to do it as often as he use to, but I as still so very happy to sing to him whenever he chooses. It is so sad that school has completely driven that joy out of this child.
Michelle
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
way. Not immature, but playful. Amazed. Not jaded. They're not on
a continuum, where they grasp the new thing and reject the old to
prove they're "old enough." It's like being a different species.
Yesterday my 6yo son and his 7yo schooled cousin were in the bathroom washing their hands. We had learned that if you sing Twinkle Little Star, and wash you hands thru the entire song, that you wash long enough to kill all the germs, and my son like to sing anyway, so he loves to do this. His cousin looked at him and told him that it was a baby song. I felt so sad for him. My son still loves to sing the same songs I sang to him as an small child when he gets into bed at night. He does not choose to do it as often as he use to, but I as still so very happy to sing to him whenever he chooses. It is so sad that school has completely driven that joy out of this child.
Michelle
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Hi All,
I am new here although not new to schooling at home. However, I am now
needing to get outside advice as well as meet others with the same ideas about
raising children. I am so glad I found this site! Anyhow, I am on my local email
group list and will soon be participating in the local get-togethers, and would
love anyone in the Wisconsin area to email me if they are interested. I have
an almost 8-year old son and a 10 year old daughter (going on 17 it feels
like!).
As far as the subject thread. I have learned that the children learn much
more when THEY are the ones who initiate the activities. If I suggest it they
want nothing to do with it, LOL.
Anyway, enjoying reading all of the emails and looking forward to getting to
know you all better.
Heather Baker
Little Suamico, WI
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am new here although not new to schooling at home. However, I am now
needing to get outside advice as well as meet others with the same ideas about
raising children. I am so glad I found this site! Anyhow, I am on my local email
group list and will soon be participating in the local get-togethers, and would
love anyone in the Wisconsin area to email me if they are interested. I have
an almost 8-year old son and a 10 year old daughter (going on 17 it feels
like!).
As far as the subject thread. I have learned that the children learn much
more when THEY are the ones who initiate the activities. If I suggest it they
want nothing to do with it, LOL.
Anyway, enjoying reading all of the emails and looking forward to getting to
know you all better.
Heather Baker
Little Suamico, WI
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Aimee
<<it's just
frustrating to deal with outdated, old fashioned
emotional garbage.
Sara>>
It is, but it seems like your patience paid off. I
have difficulty not offering my opinions, and it's NOT
paying off! lol
He's just so stern! He's like his father to him, he
only pays attention to him when he's "in trouble", and
there I am in the middle explaining why he's not in
trouble at all!
He's learned to be so much more open and loving with
me, I just wish he would do the same with our son.
Last nite Alex came and gave me hugs and kisses four
times before bed, lol, and he started to walk over to
his dad, and stopped, and I had to encourage him. He's
not sure whether dada is going to welcome him. And
without me there to cue it, he's right to be unsure.
~Aimee
frustrating to deal with outdated, old fashioned
emotional garbage.
Sara>>
It is, but it seems like your patience paid off. I
have difficulty not offering my opinions, and it's NOT
paying off! lol
He's just so stern! He's like his father to him, he
only pays attention to him when he's "in trouble", and
there I am in the middle explaining why he's not in
trouble at all!
He's learned to be so much more open and loving with
me, I just wish he would do the same with our son.
Last nite Alex came and gave me hugs and kisses four
times before bed, lol, and he started to walk over to
his dad, and stopped, and I had to encourage him. He's
not sure whether dada is going to welcome him. And
without me there to cue it, he's right to be unsure.
~Aimee
Sara
"Last nite Alex came and gave me hugs and kisses four times before
bed, lol, and he started to walk over to his dad, and stopped, and I
had to encourage him. He's not sure whether dada is going to welcome
him. And without me there to cue it, he's right to be unsure."
~Aimee
Did you say how old Alex is? If your SO can't be that kind of
spontaneous I think he may have been damaged by his parents. Why do
you think he's like this? Sara
bed, lol, and he started to walk over to his dad, and stopped, and I
had to encourage him. He's not sure whether dada is going to welcome
him. And without me there to cue it, he's right to be unsure."
~Aimee
Did you say how old Alex is? If your SO can't be that kind of
spontaneous I think he may have been damaged by his parents. Why do
you think he's like this? Sara
Aimee
He's ten. They did hug and kiss, were sweet to each
other, but I could tell, Alex was still unsure. Dh is
not consistent with affection.
Yah, dh's father only paid attention to him when he
was in "trouble", bad grades at school, mostly. And
then it was either yelling or hitting, or both, and
then he was "gone" again. In the house, but watching
tv or on the puter, can't be bothered.
Not much healthy modeling on his part, so compared to
that, dh is doing pretty good. When Alex was younger,
he was very loving and open, things have changed as he
has gotten older. They still play and have fun, but
dh gets authoritarian so quickly, it can be confusing
for Alex. I think, esp confusing because he wasn't
like this when he was younger.
I've been wondering about this a lot lately. Thinking
back on my childhood, my mother changed the way she
treated me around the same age, 10-11. I changed
dramtically too, in reaction. What is it that makes
some parents think that 10 yo's don't need the same
amt of patience, love, support, etc that a newborn or
two yo needs?
Then we wonder why teenagerhood is so hard? I think
it's because kids feel betrayed and ignored, and
overreact with this false, early, independence. Well,
looking back, that was my experience, anyway.
I think part of it is some misplaced need to toughen
them up, make them grow up faster, push them out of
the nest, I don't know. Is it possible it's
instinct, from the days when kids this age are soon to
be parents, and have families and homes of their own?
~Aimee
<<Did you say how old Alex is? If your SO can't be
that kind of
spontaneous I think he may have been damaged by his
parents. Why do
you think he's like this? Sara>>
other, but I could tell, Alex was still unsure. Dh is
not consistent with affection.
Yah, dh's father only paid attention to him when he
was in "trouble", bad grades at school, mostly. And
then it was either yelling or hitting, or both, and
then he was "gone" again. In the house, but watching
tv or on the puter, can't be bothered.
Not much healthy modeling on his part, so compared to
that, dh is doing pretty good. When Alex was younger,
he was very loving and open, things have changed as he
has gotten older. They still play and have fun, but
dh gets authoritarian so quickly, it can be confusing
for Alex. I think, esp confusing because he wasn't
like this when he was younger.
I've been wondering about this a lot lately. Thinking
back on my childhood, my mother changed the way she
treated me around the same age, 10-11. I changed
dramtically too, in reaction. What is it that makes
some parents think that 10 yo's don't need the same
amt of patience, love, support, etc that a newborn or
two yo needs?
Then we wonder why teenagerhood is so hard? I think
it's because kids feel betrayed and ignored, and
overreact with this false, early, independence. Well,
looking back, that was my experience, anyway.
I think part of it is some misplaced need to toughen
them up, make them grow up faster, push them out of
the nest, I don't know. Is it possible it's
instinct, from the days when kids this age are soon to
be parents, and have families and homes of their own?
~Aimee
<<Did you say how old Alex is? If your SO can't be
that kind of
spontaneous I think he may have been damaged by his
parents. Why do
you think he's like this? Sara>>
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/04 10:11:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aimeel73@... writes:
up. I was the youngest of 4 and when I came to about 11 yo my mother also
suddenly 'changed'. Suddenly I was allowed NO freedom, had strict rules and
consequences etc etc. In reaction to this adbrupt turn around, I rebelled
ferociously. I became angry, hurt, and did everything I could to act the exact
opposite of how I had been before this time. My parents could not understand. And
amusingly, I would tell them EXACTLY why I did what I was doing, and they
couldn't get it. They would say stuff such as, "Well, we've already been through 3
other teenagers, we won't have things the same with you, so we're buckling
down on you now" HA!! I wouldn't never acting as horribly as I did, had they
simply continued to treat me with the same love and respect as they had up
until I turned 12. They never even gave me the benefit of the doubt to see how
I'd be after puberty. They assummed I'd be the same as my sister and brothers,
and punished me before the bad behavior ever even had a chance to happen or
not happen.
Emily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aimeel73@... writes:
> I've been wondering about this a lot lately. ThinkingHow interesting to read this! It was very similar in my household growing
> back on my childhood, my mother changed the way she
> treated me around the same age, 10-11. I changed
> dramtically too, in reaction. What is it that makes
> some parents think that 10 yo's don't need the same
> amt of patience, love, support, etc that a newborn or
> two yo needs?
>
> Then we wonder why teenagerhood is so hard? I think
> it's because kids feel betrayed and ignored, and
> overreact with this false, early, independence. Well,
> looking back, that was my experience, anyway.
>
up. I was the youngest of 4 and when I came to about 11 yo my mother also
suddenly 'changed'. Suddenly I was allowed NO freedom, had strict rules and
consequences etc etc. In reaction to this adbrupt turn around, I rebelled
ferociously. I became angry, hurt, and did everything I could to act the exact
opposite of how I had been before this time. My parents could not understand. And
amusingly, I would tell them EXACTLY why I did what I was doing, and they
couldn't get it. They would say stuff such as, "Well, we've already been through 3
other teenagers, we won't have things the same with you, so we're buckling
down on you now" HA!! I wouldn't never acting as horribly as I did, had they
simply continued to treat me with the same love and respect as they had up
until I turned 12. They never even gave me the benefit of the doubt to see how
I'd be after puberty. They assummed I'd be the same as my sister and brothers,
and punished me before the bad behavior ever even had a chance to happen or
not happen.
Emily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]