Ok, frustrated here
Have a Nice Day!
I have not "required" chores from my kids for a long time, but I do ask for help when I need it.
As of late, my 12 year old is constantly asking me to run here everywhere, asking to have friends over, wanting me to buy her hair dye, wanting her hair cut, asking me to pay for makeup, asking me for money at the pool, at swim meets, etc.
Her requests seem to come several times a day, 10 requests in a day would not be an exagerration.
She really does not seem aware of how much she asks for. And she constantly complains like our family and our home are not good enough for her.
Although I have asked if she could help me out (and in a nice way) she continually says "no, she doesn't feel like it".
Once again, today, she said she would help out and do some stuff for me if.......
Now the time has come, she wants me to drive her to somewhere, and once again she has done absolutely NOTHING to help me out.
I am feeling VERY taken advantage of and overwhelmed with the stuff that needs done in between running her everywhere.
In addition I am broke, and I cannot afford to give her more money. She has already gotten so much that I can't even give any to the other kids.
Should I drive her? I"m really inclined to say "no".
I've already switched from using an ATM card to using cash, so that they can visually see that when its gone, its gone. And in order to be able to afford hair dye, SHE had to make the grocery list so that I had enough to buy groceries and give her the money for the dye. I also did this so that I would not have to hear her complain about the lack of stuff to eat here.
Any suggestions?
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As of late, my 12 year old is constantly asking me to run here everywhere, asking to have friends over, wanting me to buy her hair dye, wanting her hair cut, asking me to pay for makeup, asking me for money at the pool, at swim meets, etc.
Her requests seem to come several times a day, 10 requests in a day would not be an exagerration.
She really does not seem aware of how much she asks for. And she constantly complains like our family and our home are not good enough for her.
Although I have asked if she could help me out (and in a nice way) she continually says "no, she doesn't feel like it".
Once again, today, she said she would help out and do some stuff for me if.......
Now the time has come, she wants me to drive her to somewhere, and once again she has done absolutely NOTHING to help me out.
I am feeling VERY taken advantage of and overwhelmed with the stuff that needs done in between running her everywhere.
In addition I am broke, and I cannot afford to give her more money. She has already gotten so much that I can't even give any to the other kids.
Should I drive her? I"m really inclined to say "no".
I've already switched from using an ATM card to using cash, so that they can visually see that when its gone, its gone. And in order to be able to afford hair dye, SHE had to make the grocery list so that I had enough to buy groceries and give her the money for the dye. I also did this so that I would not have to hear her complain about the lack of stuff to eat here.
Any suggestions?
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<< Should I drive her? I"m really inclined to say "no". >>>>
Then say "no".
But not in an ugly "you never help me" voice.
In a logical, loving "i'm getting really stressed out about everything that
has to be done and everywhere I have to go" voice.
Julie S.
Then say "no".
But not in an ugly "you never help me" voice.
In a logical, loving "i'm getting really stressed out about everything that
has to be done and everywhere I have to go" voice.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Have a Nice Day!" <litlrooh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 6:33 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Ok, frustrated here
> I have not "required" chores from my kids for a long time, but I do ask
for help when I need it.
>
> As of late, my 12 year old is constantly asking me to run here everywhere,
asking to have friends over, wanting me to buy her hair dye, wanting her
hair cut, asking me to pay for makeup, asking me for money at the pool, at
swim meets, etc.
>
> Her requests seem to come several times a day, 10 requests in a day would
not be an exagerration.
>
> She really does not seem aware of how much she asks for. And she
constantly complains like our family and our home are not good enough for
her.
>
> Although I have asked if she could help me out (and in a nice way) she
continually says "no, she doesn't feel like it".
>
> Once again, today, she said she would help out and do some stuff for me
if.......
>
> Now the time has come, she wants me to drive her to somewhere, and once
again she has done absolutely NOTHING to help me out.
>
> I am feeling VERY taken advantage of and overwhelmed with the stuff that
needs done in between running her everywhere.
>
> In addition I am broke, and I cannot afford to give her more money. She
has already gotten so much that I can't even give any to the other kids.
>
> Should I drive her? I"m really inclined to say "no".
>
> I've already switched from using an ATM card to using cash, so that they
can visually see that when its gone, its gone. And in order to be able to
afford hair dye, SHE had to make the grocery list so that I had enough to
buy groceries and give her the money for the dye. I also did this so that I
would not have to hear her complain about the lack of stuff to eat here.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Kristen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Michelle
What we have started doing here, with the money situation, is giving our son an allowance. He is given $60 a month, of which $10 is put away for savings, and $10 is put away for a future large ticket item that may pop up. So that leaves him with $40 for the month to purchase toys, video games, snacks and such. We just started with this at the beginning of the month, but already I see a change. He burned thru the money in the first 2 days. I reminded him that when it was gone, he would have to wait till next month for more. He did not want to save any, so it is all gone. The first day, he wanted a snack when we were out. He had just eaten lunch, so it was not that he was starving. I told him that he was more than welcome to purchase anything he wanted with his money. He informed me that he would rather wait till we got home, which was after we were don't at that store, because the food at home was free. Smart kid!! Also, when we are out and he asks for a toy, I tell him
that he can buy it with his allowance. He says it is all gone, and will have to wait till he gets it again. And that is usually the end of it. Now I must say that he has always been a pretty easy going child, and the discussions for me to purchase a toy were never a battle, but now I am no longer the BAD GUY for not buying it. He owns the decision on what to get with his money. Of course, I still do get him things when we are out, but he is learning that when the money is gone, it is gone. So when I tell him I do not have any money to get what he wants, he understands the concept much better now.
Michelle
that he can buy it with his allowance. He says it is all gone, and will have to wait till he gets it again. And that is usually the end of it. Now I must say that he has always been a pretty easy going child, and the discussions for me to purchase a toy were never a battle, but now I am no longer the BAD GUY for not buying it. He owns the decision on what to get with his money. Of course, I still do get him things when we are out, but he is learning that when the money is gone, it is gone. So when I tell him I do not have any money to get what he wants, he understands the concept much better now.
Michelle
----- Original Message -----
From: "Have a Nice Day!" litlrooh@...
> As of late, my 12 year old is constantly asking me to run here everywhere,
asking to have friends over, wanting me to buy her hair dye, wanting her
hair cut, asking me to pay for makeup, asking me for money at the pool, at
swim meets, etc.
>
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
I have a suggestion resolving the asking to spend money issue.
Give her money.
Sit down together - figure out how much money you're spending on the
kinds of things she typically requests -- could be things like,
clothing, hair dye, hair cuts, jewelry, music, concerts, books, gifts
for friends, cute little knick-knacks, special shampoo, perfume, hair
ties, shoes, socks, photos, movie tickets, etc.
Brainstorm a list like this for yourselves - think about what you've
given her money for or bought or paid for, for her, in the past few
months.
Add it up and figure out a reasonably good estimate of an average month.
Let's say you decide your list includes: clothes, hair dye, jewelry,
music, and gifts for friends and that it adds up to $50 average per
month (some months might be way higher and others lower).
Then you give her $50 in cash on the first day of every month. This is
over and above any other allowance you may have already been giving.
And she can spend it on whatever she wants. But the deal is that she
pays for the things on the list you made. If she asks you to buy her
hair dye, you remind her that is on the list of things she's paying
for.
Don't be surprised if she doesn't spend nearly as much on these things
and uses the money for other things. That's okay - that's sensible
decision making when faced with real trade-offs.
This worked so well for my family - I think otherwise the kids don't
have a good sense of how much is reasonable to ask for and they might
as well just keep asking for everything they could possibly want until
we have to say we can't afford it. Which is fine but it is annoying
when a kid is constantly asking for something and we have to keep
constantly deciding if we can afford it or not.
And if I wanted to buy something for them that would normally be on
their list, it was a gift and an extra and they appreciated it in that
way.
It is really important that the list be created by both of you and that
you're clear about what is on it and what isn't so you don't have to
negotiate THAT in the future, although it might take a few months to
get absolutely clear.
-pam
Give her money.
Sit down together - figure out how much money you're spending on the
kinds of things she typically requests -- could be things like,
clothing, hair dye, hair cuts, jewelry, music, concerts, books, gifts
for friends, cute little knick-knacks, special shampoo, perfume, hair
ties, shoes, socks, photos, movie tickets, etc.
Brainstorm a list like this for yourselves - think about what you've
given her money for or bought or paid for, for her, in the past few
months.
Add it up and figure out a reasonably good estimate of an average month.
Let's say you decide your list includes: clothes, hair dye, jewelry,
music, and gifts for friends and that it adds up to $50 average per
month (some months might be way higher and others lower).
Then you give her $50 in cash on the first day of every month. This is
over and above any other allowance you may have already been giving.
And she can spend it on whatever she wants. But the deal is that she
pays for the things on the list you made. If she asks you to buy her
hair dye, you remind her that is on the list of things she's paying
for.
Don't be surprised if she doesn't spend nearly as much on these things
and uses the money for other things. That's okay - that's sensible
decision making when faced with real trade-offs.
This worked so well for my family - I think otherwise the kids don't
have a good sense of how much is reasonable to ask for and they might
as well just keep asking for everything they could possibly want until
we have to say we can't afford it. Which is fine but it is annoying
when a kid is constantly asking for something and we have to keep
constantly deciding if we can afford it or not.
And if I wanted to buy something for them that would normally be on
their list, it was a gift and an extra and they appreciated it in that
way.
It is really important that the list be created by both of you and that
you're clear about what is on it and what isn't so you don't have to
negotiate THAT in the future, although it might take a few months to
get absolutely clear.
-pam
On Jun 18, 2004, at 4:33 PM, Have a Nice Day! wrote:
> Any suggestions?
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
I have a 10 year old boy who reminds me of your daughter. Sometimes I
feel like the minute he wakes up he is only thinking of ways to get anything
he can from me. It is very draining. I feel like I have always been this
easygoing person and that used to be a good thing. Now I wish I was a strong
character and much more rigid. My son is smart and self confident. He is well liked
by most people who know him. When he is with me, he drives me nuts. I don't
feel comfortable being the kind of person I have to be to keep him from taking
over. I'm not the kind of person who does everything by schedule and who is
orderly. I'm more a roll with the punches kind of person.
Anyway, I guess I'm saying that I understand what you are going
through. It is not easy to do but you can't try to always keep her happy. I realized
that I was always worried that if he was not happy he would make everyone
miserable. I found my day being revolved around what he wanted to have or do.
Then I would be angry with myself and him because all the things I knew needed to
be accomplished were not. I found myself not liking him and that really
bothered me.
I think it is a good idea to give her a certain amount of money per
month or week, but I don't think you should be too specific about what it is
for. What my son would do is instead of spending the money on other things, he
would keep asking for more money for other things not on the list and just say
that it needs to be added to the list. I'm sure she is like many teens and they
all want the latest clothes and hair, etc. You cannot compete with kids who's
parents have an endless amount of money and just hand their kids all that
they ask for.
Also, about the jobs, when I grew up my mother never asked us to do
any jobs and she just tried to do everything herself. When I was on my own, I
had no idea what needed to be done to keep a house going. I still have trouble.
Having responsibility in the family to keep the house in order makes a child
feel needed. It gives them a sense of accomplishment. I just started to assign
jobs to my kids. I'm working on how to "encourage' them to complete their jobs
each day. I should have started when my son was younger, but late is better
then never. The hardest part is getting them to complete them. I try to make
them see that if they do not complete their job for the week, it effects the
entire family. If the dishes are not done then we don't have any dishes to eat
off of. Also, I allow them to watch an hour of tv each day if they had done
their job the day before. I was just about to disconnect the cable because they
watch waaaaay too much tv and to save $. My son came up with an idea of tv for
jobs completed, so I said I'd try it. So far it is not too bad. It is not
perfect but better then before. The kids are contributing with the work and they
are watching less tv.
Sometimes when we love our children we want to give them all they
want. We think it makes them happy. I'm always telling my kids that they have no
idea of all the things that they have and the things they do. I never had
anything like that when I was a kid. Sort of like walking 3 miles to school without
any shoes in the snow!! They just kind of laugh at me and ask for another
piece of candy. I've learned to not try to make them happy all the time. When my
3 year old tells me that she doesn't like me I say "that's OK, it's not my job
to make you like me. I still love you, though. Now, go feed the dog!"
Sorry this is so long. I got a little carried away. Hope things get a
little easier for you.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
feel like the minute he wakes up he is only thinking of ways to get anything
he can from me. It is very draining. I feel like I have always been this
easygoing person and that used to be a good thing. Now I wish I was a strong
character and much more rigid. My son is smart and self confident. He is well liked
by most people who know him. When he is with me, he drives me nuts. I don't
feel comfortable being the kind of person I have to be to keep him from taking
over. I'm not the kind of person who does everything by schedule and who is
orderly. I'm more a roll with the punches kind of person.
Anyway, I guess I'm saying that I understand what you are going
through. It is not easy to do but you can't try to always keep her happy. I realized
that I was always worried that if he was not happy he would make everyone
miserable. I found my day being revolved around what he wanted to have or do.
Then I would be angry with myself and him because all the things I knew needed to
be accomplished were not. I found myself not liking him and that really
bothered me.
I think it is a good idea to give her a certain amount of money per
month or week, but I don't think you should be too specific about what it is
for. What my son would do is instead of spending the money on other things, he
would keep asking for more money for other things not on the list and just say
that it needs to be added to the list. I'm sure she is like many teens and they
all want the latest clothes and hair, etc. You cannot compete with kids who's
parents have an endless amount of money and just hand their kids all that
they ask for.
Also, about the jobs, when I grew up my mother never asked us to do
any jobs and she just tried to do everything herself. When I was on my own, I
had no idea what needed to be done to keep a house going. I still have trouble.
Having responsibility in the family to keep the house in order makes a child
feel needed. It gives them a sense of accomplishment. I just started to assign
jobs to my kids. I'm working on how to "encourage' them to complete their jobs
each day. I should have started when my son was younger, but late is better
then never. The hardest part is getting them to complete them. I try to make
them see that if they do not complete their job for the week, it effects the
entire family. If the dishes are not done then we don't have any dishes to eat
off of. Also, I allow them to watch an hour of tv each day if they had done
their job the day before. I was just about to disconnect the cable because they
watch waaaaay too much tv and to save $. My son came up with an idea of tv for
jobs completed, so I said I'd try it. So far it is not too bad. It is not
perfect but better then before. The kids are contributing with the work and they
are watching less tv.
Sometimes when we love our children we want to give them all they
want. We think it makes them happy. I'm always telling my kids that they have no
idea of all the things that they have and the things they do. I never had
anything like that when I was a kid. Sort of like walking 3 miles to school without
any shoes in the snow!! They just kind of laugh at me and ask for another
piece of candy. I've learned to not try to make them happy all the time. When my
3 year old tells me that she doesn't like me I say "that's OK, it's not my job
to make you like me. I still love you, though. Now, go feed the dog!"
Sorry this is so long. I got a little carried away. Hope things get a
little easier for you.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 6/18/04 7:33 PM, Have a Nice Day! at litlrooh@... wrote:
Are you asking her to do things with you, things you can use the time to
connect with each other over? Like folding laundry and cooking so you can
talk about things?
Do you have private times where you can connect with each other? Like just
the two of you at a cafe when the others are off with friends?
Is this something new? It sounds not unlike my teen years when I didn't want
anyone to ask anything of me but wanted them to meet all my needs. I don't
know how much of that was hormones and how much was caused by school.
Joyce
> Although I have asked if she could help me out (and in a nice way) sheHow are you asking? And what types of things are you asking for help with?
> continually says "no, she doesn't feel like it".
Are you asking her to do things with you, things you can use the time to
connect with each other over? Like folding laundry and cooking so you can
talk about things?
Do you have private times where you can connect with each other? Like just
the two of you at a cafe when the others are off with friends?
Is this something new? It sounds not unlike my teen years when I didn't want
anyone to ask anything of me but wanted them to meet all my needs. I don't
know how much of that was hormones and how much was caused by school.
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 6/19/04 1:08 AM, brenjenem@... at brenjenem@... wrote:
broken for instance) and your husband started seeing your motivations as
trying to get anything you can from him, it would increase his resentment of
your requests and not improve the relationship between you.
Wouldn't you rather he talked to you about it and worked out a way to make
it easier on everyone?
Have you talked to your son about it? What kind of things is he asking for?
Maybe people have some ideas.
Unless he *is* trying to get anything he can from you in which case that's a
symptom of something that's broken in the relationship between you. It isn't
because you aren't strong enough! Kids aren't born with the desire to grasp
whatever they can con others into giving them until we train it out of them
so if he is doing that, it's probably because there's something else he's
needing.
How about talking to him? How about being realistic about what can fit into
a day? How about not casting yourself in the role of his servant but as his
partner?
If he's just asking for what he needs and you keep giving and giving until
you're drained, he's not going to know he's draining you until you reach
empty and collapse.
I think moms especially have this feeling they need to fix every problem and
supply every need. So when kids ask for too much it seems the solution is to
get them to stop asking. And then we feel frustrated when kids keep asking,
as though they should just know that they're asking too much.
I think honesty about what can be accomplished for *everyone* (including mom
and the home) is a better solution. If a child needs something that might
take an hour trip instead of feeling guilty about saying no, we can let them
know how it fits into the day and whether it will need to be put on the plan
for the next day.
If we cast ourselves in the role of the granter and denier or wishes, then
the only tool we're giving kids to get their needs met is begging. If we let
reality (time, money, energy) be the factor, then kids can be involved in
the process of figuring out how to meet their needs given the limitations
that life imposes.
What kinds of things are happening between you?
People might have some ideas.
There are other choices besides saying yes to everything or saying no to
everything.
even if she had asked, had assigned chores, I doubt I'd be any better. I
know *how* to do housework. It's not that hard! ;-) I could set up a
schedule. I could do Flylady. But there are things that are way more
interesting than housework.
If there's something that could have been learned in the past to improve
yourself today, it can be done now. If you can't fix it now, it's far more
likely to be personality than lack of skills.
*Real* responsiblity are things we *choose* to take on or not, *choose* the
standard to keep it at, *choose* to keep going or drop.
None of that applies to assigned chores. Assigned chores are more akin to
the mayor knocking on your door and saying "Since you live in this town, we
want you to feel needed and feel a sense of accomplishment. Here's a list of
things to do and how to do them and the standards expected of you. Pick
one."
I think what will make a child or anyone feel needed is working together to
accomplish something. Also being honestly thankful for help given. If
someone takes time away from doing something more meaningful to them to help
us out, we should be suitably thankful for it. Generally what kids get is
nothing for doing what's been assigned and attention for not doing it. It's
not what would make me want to help someone!
can now comprehend how much time and what needs to be sacrificied to get
something. Not because I've trained her but because her brain is changing
with puberty. I could have spent years "making" her understand, but she
wouldn't have really understood until her brain chemistry changed.
I think if we can paint an honest picture of what's involved in running a
home we can help kids get a better feel for what's involved in what they're
asking for, get a feeling of what needs sacrificed to get something else.
If there are no dishes and the kids get the feeling we could have done them
(or bought paper plates last shopping trip ;-) it communicates more a sense
of feeling that it rocks to have the one with power (who gets to decide who
does what) and sucks to be the one with no power.
cooked dinner from scratch the night before? Would that make you want to
cook from scratch?
What would make you want to cook? How about sincere appreciation and honest
compliments when you did cook from scratch?
Joyce
> Sometimes IIf you were needing things you couldn't get for yourself (if your leg were
> feel like the minute he wakes up he is only thinking of ways to get anything
> he can from me.
broken for instance) and your husband started seeing your motivations as
trying to get anything you can from him, it would increase his resentment of
your requests and not improve the relationship between you.
Wouldn't you rather he talked to you about it and worked out a way to make
it easier on everyone?
Have you talked to your son about it? What kind of things is he asking for?
Maybe people have some ideas.
Unless he *is* trying to get anything he can from you in which case that's a
symptom of something that's broken in the relationship between you. It isn't
because you aren't strong enough! Kids aren't born with the desire to grasp
whatever they can con others into giving them until we train it out of them
so if he is doing that, it's probably because there's something else he's
needing.
> It is very draining.People don't know they're draining us unless we let them know!
> I feel like I have always been thisThose aren't the only choices!
> easygoing person and that used to be a good thing. Now I wish I was a strong
> character and much more rigid.
How about talking to him? How about being realistic about what can fit into
a day? How about not casting yourself in the role of his servant but as his
partner?
If he's just asking for what he needs and you keep giving and giving until
you're drained, he's not going to know he's draining you until you reach
empty and collapse.
I think moms especially have this feeling they need to fix every problem and
supply every need. So when kids ask for too much it seems the solution is to
get them to stop asking. And then we feel frustrated when kids keep asking,
as though they should just know that they're asking too much.
I think honesty about what can be accomplished for *everyone* (including mom
and the home) is a better solution. If a child needs something that might
take an hour trip instead of feeling guilty about saying no, we can let them
know how it fits into the day and whether it will need to be put on the plan
for the next day.
If we cast ourselves in the role of the granter and denier or wishes, then
the only tool we're giving kids to get their needs met is begging. If we let
reality (time, money, energy) be the factor, then kids can be involved in
the process of figuring out how to meet their needs given the limitations
that life imposes.
> I don'tWhat kind of person are you being?
> feel comfortable being the kind of person I have to be to keep him from taking
> over. I'm not the kind of person who does everything by schedule and who is
> orderly. I'm more a roll with the punches kind of person.
What kinds of things are happening between you?
People might have some ideas.
There are other choices besides saying yes to everything or saying no to
everything.
> Also, about the jobs, when I grew up my mother never asked us to doMy mother never asked either. I can't say I'm good at running a home but
> any jobs and she just tried to do everything herself. When I was on my own, I
> had no idea what needed to be done to keep a house going. I still have
> trouble.
even if she had asked, had assigned chores, I doubt I'd be any better. I
know *how* to do housework. It's not that hard! ;-) I could set up a
schedule. I could do Flylady. But there are things that are way more
interesting than housework.
If there's something that could have been learned in the past to improve
yourself today, it can be done now. If you can't fix it now, it's far more
likely to be personality than lack of skills.
> Having responsibility in the family to keep the house in order makes a childOr they can feel like they're being taken advantage of.
> feel needed.
*Real* responsiblity are things we *choose* to take on or not, *choose* the
standard to keep it at, *choose* to keep going or drop.
None of that applies to assigned chores. Assigned chores are more akin to
the mayor knocking on your door and saying "Since you live in this town, we
want you to feel needed and feel a sense of accomplishment. Here's a list of
things to do and how to do them and the standards expected of you. Pick
one."
I think what will make a child or anyone feel needed is working together to
accomplish something. Also being honestly thankful for help given. If
someone takes time away from doing something more meaningful to them to help
us out, we should be suitably thankful for it. Generally what kids get is
nothing for doing what's been assigned and attention for not doing it. It's
not what would make me want to help someone!
> I try to makeMy daughter at 12 is seeing the world differently than she did at 10. She
> them see that if they do not complete their job for the week, it effects the
> entire family.
can now comprehend how much time and what needs to be sacrificied to get
something. Not because I've trained her but because her brain is changing
with puberty. I could have spent years "making" her understand, but she
wouldn't have really understood until her brain chemistry changed.
I think if we can paint an honest picture of what's involved in running a
home we can help kids get a better feel for what's involved in what they're
asking for, get a feeling of what needs sacrificed to get something else.
If there are no dishes and the kids get the feeling we could have done them
(or bought paper plates last shopping trip ;-) it communicates more a sense
of feeling that it rocks to have the one with power (who gets to decide who
does what) and sucks to be the one with no power.
> Also, I allow them to watch an hour of tv each day if they had doneWhat if your husband decided you couldn't watch TV the next day unless you
> their job the day before.
cooked dinner from scratch the night before? Would that make you want to
cook from scratch?
What would make you want to cook? How about sincere appreciation and honest
compliments when you did cook from scratch?
> "that's OK, it's not my jobWould you want to hear that from your husband?
> to make you like me. I still love you, though. Now, go feed the dog!"
Joyce
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], "Have a Nice Day!" <litlrooh@e...>
wrote:
for makeup, asking me for money at the pool, at swim meets, etc.
Kristen, this sounds like my summer last year. It was exhausting! I was surprised every
time my daughter (13) asked to go out and needed a ride. I'd take her somewhere feeling
so good about helping her out and think (wrongly) that that would "hold" her for a few
days at least. Wrong. The next morning, another request.
After a month of daily rides and negotiations, I was becoming resentful instead of happy
to help her. And she was so totally unconscious of the impact of this driving on the other
kids or my ability to keep up with other demands in the family.
I finally took a two week break. I told her that it was summer and that while I love that
she's going out with friends so much, I needed to have a driving vacation where I could be
home with the other kids without the pressure of taking and picking up all the time (some
of these escapades would turn into driving to one place, picking up and taking to another
and then later picking up to bring home).
I told her that she could arrange any rides she wanted or she could have the "gang" to our
house, but I just needed a two week break.
She wasn't too happy at the time, but she did amazingly start finding other rides. And for
the first time, she invited this group of teens to our house (she had them over twice I think
and that snowballed into other times).
After those two weeks, I actually felt better about making a true evaluation of each
request. I had forgotten that just because I am home doesn't mean I'm available. If I plan
to have a day at home with the younger kids, I can tell her that I'm not available for driving
that day.
I still drove her lots last summer, but I felt much more freedom to make decisions that
involved me as well as her. We got more creative about where she went and how often and
with whom.
This was true in our family too. We have Father's Day coming up and we are planning a big
breakfast for him. Her only thought is will it interferre with seeing her friends who will be
at her church that day...
I do understand how consuming friends are at this age. What I had forgotten is that they
don't have to consume me too.
This is one thing I did find. I would say, "I can drive you at 6:00 if I get the dishes cleaned
up and the living room straightened before then. If you'd like to help me, great. If not,
that's fine, but I don't know if I'll be done in time."
Then I would do it as I could. If she saw 6 approaching and I still hadn't gotten done what I
had planned, she was more likely to get in gear and help.
I wasn't threatening. The cleaning or other task has to be legitimate. But I think she had
stopped seeing that her life was impacted by her dirty dishes or messy couches (she leaves
her notebooks and writing stuff everywhere).
You are being taken advantage of, but not consciously. Iow, she isn't being malicious.
She's just not aware of her impact. It helped me to make that distinction.
One last little story.
I knew I was not taking care of me (had lost the sense of being a real person in her eyes)
when one time I picked her up (after a very complicated driving scenario that involved
driving multiple kids multiple places) and she was appalled at my seventies rock station on
the radio. I explained that she was free to change it now, but she wasn't in the car before
and so I listened to what I wanted.
Her reply shocked me: "But you shouldn't even listen to it then. It's a terrible station."
This was the turning and breaking point for me. I didn't have enough gravitas in her life
for me to have my own radio station preferences when she wasn't around? I knew change
was in order.
A year later (now) we are in a much better groove about driving - I'm not resentful, she's
more careful about giving me notice and finding rides. She's been more helpful with the
house. And she is more conscious of me as a person, not just a ride-giver.
And she still focuses primarily on friends over family. But there is peace and I do enjoy her
now again.
Julie B
wrote:
> I have not "required" chores from my kids for a long time, but I do ask for help when Ineed it.
>have friends over, wanting me to buy her hair dye, wanting her hair cut, asking me to pay
> As of late, my 12 year old is constantly asking me to run here everywhere, asking to
for makeup, asking me for money at the pool, at swim meets, etc.
>exagerration.
> Her requests seem to come several times a day, 10 requests in a day would not be an
Kristen, this sounds like my summer last year. It was exhausting! I was surprised every
time my daughter (13) asked to go out and needed a ride. I'd take her somewhere feeling
so good about helping her out and think (wrongly) that that would "hold" her for a few
days at least. Wrong. The next morning, another request.
After a month of daily rides and negotiations, I was becoming resentful instead of happy
to help her. And she was so totally unconscious of the impact of this driving on the other
kids or my ability to keep up with other demands in the family.
I finally took a two week break. I told her that it was summer and that while I love that
she's going out with friends so much, I needed to have a driving vacation where I could be
home with the other kids without the pressure of taking and picking up all the time (some
of these escapades would turn into driving to one place, picking up and taking to another
and then later picking up to bring home).
I told her that she could arrange any rides she wanted or she could have the "gang" to our
house, but I just needed a two week break.
She wasn't too happy at the time, but she did amazingly start finding other rides. And for
the first time, she invited this group of teens to our house (she had them over twice I think
and that snowballed into other times).
After those two weeks, I actually felt better about making a true evaluation of each
request. I had forgotten that just because I am home doesn't mean I'm available. If I plan
to have a day at home with the younger kids, I can tell her that I'm not available for driving
that day.
I still drove her lots last summer, but I felt much more freedom to make decisions that
involved me as well as her. We got more creative about where she went and how often and
with whom.
>complains like our family and our home are not good enough for her.
> She really does not seem aware of how much she asks for. And she constantly
This was true in our family too. We have Father's Day coming up and we are planning a big
breakfast for him. Her only thought is will it interferre with seeing her friends who will be
at her church that day...
I do understand how consuming friends are at this age. What I had forgotten is that they
don't have to consume me too.
>"no, she doesn't feel like it".
> Although I have asked if she could help me out (and in a nice way) she continually says
This is one thing I did find. I would say, "I can drive you at 6:00 if I get the dishes cleaned
up and the living room straightened before then. If you'd like to help me, great. If not,
that's fine, but I don't know if I'll be done in time."
Then I would do it as I could. If she saw 6 approaching and I still hadn't gotten done what I
had planned, she was more likely to get in gear and help.
I wasn't threatening. The cleaning or other task has to be legitimate. But I think she had
stopped seeing that her life was impacted by her dirty dishes or messy couches (she leaves
her notebooks and writing stuff everywhere).
>has done absolutely NOTHING to help me out.
> Once again, today, she said she would help out and do some stuff for me if.......
>
> Now the time has come, she wants me to drive her to somewhere, and once again she
>between running her everywhere.
> I am feeling VERY taken advantage of and overwhelmed with the stuff that needs done in
You are being taken advantage of, but not consciously. Iow, she isn't being malicious.
She's just not aware of her impact. It helped me to make that distinction.
>Just say "no" sometimes when you need to.
> Should I drive her? I"m really inclined to say "no".
One last little story.
I knew I was not taking care of me (had lost the sense of being a real person in her eyes)
when one time I picked her up (after a very complicated driving scenario that involved
driving multiple kids multiple places) and she was appalled at my seventies rock station on
the radio. I explained that she was free to change it now, but she wasn't in the car before
and so I listened to what I wanted.
Her reply shocked me: "But you shouldn't even listen to it then. It's a terrible station."
This was the turning and breaking point for me. I didn't have enough gravitas in her life
for me to have my own radio station preferences when she wasn't around? I knew change
was in order.
A year later (now) we are in a much better groove about driving - I'm not resentful, she's
more careful about giving me notice and finding rides. She's been more helpful with the
house. And she is more conscious of me as a person, not just a ride-giver.
And she still focuses primarily on friends over family. But there is peace and I do enjoy her
now again.
Julie B
[email protected]
> I'm sure she is like many teens and theyMy teens are happy with thrift store clothes and home-haircuts.
> all want the latest clothes and hair, etc. You cannot compete with kids who's
> parents have an endless amount of money and just hand their
> kids all that
> they ask for.
Kirby does like cargo pants, but he's as happy with used t-shirts or free from work as anything specially picked. Marty's less picky than that, even.
Maybe the girl is unaware that the mother is feeling put upon. Maybe she's not, but communication should be constant and honest and kind, if things are to get better. If she doesn't know, the mom should communicate more.
Maybe planning the night before, or keeping better notes on what's needed when would help. "Clean up before Friday" could go on the list along with "Movie with friends" or "dye hair" and both could check the list as part of the day.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/19/2004 1:08:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, brenjenem writes:
"Always"?
They only know their own lives. If you're "always" (or even occasionally) telling them they should appreciate their lives as compared to [yours as a kid? children starving in China?] it's probably not doing them or you any good, and could be doing damage to your/mom's credibility and the relationship between parent and child.
"I had to walk three miles in the snow" stories are intended to shame the hearer. Try to be aware of what you're saying and why and what the danger/cost could be.
Sandra
> I'm always telling my kids that they have no----------
> idea of all the things that they have and the things they
> do.
"Always"?
They only know their own lives. If you're "always" (or even occasionally) telling them they should appreciate their lives as compared to [yours as a kid? children starving in China?] it's probably not doing them or you any good, and could be doing damage to your/mom's credibility and the relationship between parent and child.
"I had to walk three miles in the snow" stories are intended to shame the hearer. Try to be aware of what you're saying and why and what the danger/cost could be.
Sandra
[email protected]
Kristen,
I have always been very honest with my three children 16, 13, and 9, about
our finances. We have always made a practice of shopping clearance, yard sales,
thrift stores, and also freecycling. Since I have always worked in retail,
and very savvy about the cycle of seasonal transitions. Get to know when your
local retailers are transitioning each department, and you can save a lot of
money on clearance items that are discontinued. My children are also aware if
this practice, and know that they can probably wait a little longer for certain
items that will eventually be clearanced. It's fun to watch their sense of
accomplishment when they get a bargain.
We do not pay them for regular household chores, because they are part of
their family responsibility. I keep a list of extra work around the house that
they can get paid for. They also make their own money with a variety of
different jobs. My oldest daughter baby-sits, and will be starting a new job soon.
She's also great at recycling clothes, and making new creations out of them.
My son collects golf balls from the golf course and resells them to the
golfers, does some pet sitting, and helps some of our elderly neighbors with heavy
chores.
My youngest daughter is still learning, and can be a bit needy at times, but
I have confidence that she will catch on too.
Even when finances are not so tight, I like for them to learn to save the
surplus and invest it for the future.
I have also heard the argument that our family and home aren't good enough
for my oldest dd. When it's just me, I would let it roll off of my back, and
don't take it personally. If the younger ones are around to overhear it, then we
will all sit down and discuss it, so that everyone has a chance to voice their
own opinion. It was more common when she was in school, and the fact that we
live in an upscale neighborhood didn't help. She has since grown and matured,
and has learned that life is so much more than make-up, hair, and material
things.
Elaine
In a message dated 6/18/2004 8:20:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
litlrooh@... writes:
I have not "required" chores from my kids for a long time, but I do ask for
help when I need it.
As of late, my 12 year old is constantly asking me to run here everywhere,
asking to have friends over, wanting me to buy her hair dye, wanting her hair
cut, asking me to pay for makeup, asking me for money at the pool, at swim
meets, etc.
Her requests seem to come several times a day, 10 requests in a day would not
be an exagerration.
She really does not seem aware of how much she asks for. And she constantly
complains like our family and our home are not good enough for her.
Although I have asked if she could help me out (and in a nice way) she
continually says "no, she doesn't feel like it".
Once again, today, she said she would help out and do some stuff for me
if.......
Now the time has come, she wants me to drive her to somewhere, and once again
she has done absolutely NOTHING to help me out.
I am feeling VERY taken advantage of and overwhelmed with the stuff that
needs done in between running her everywhere.
In addition I am broke, and I cannot afford to give her more money. She has
already gotten so much that I can't even give any to the other kids.
Should I drive her? I"m really inclined to say "no".
I've already switched from using an ATM card to using cash, so that they can
visually see that when its gone, its gone. And in order to be able to afford
hair dye, SHE had to make the grocery list so that I had enough to buy
groceries and give her the money for the dye. I also did this so that I would not
have to hear her complain about the lack of stuff to eat here.
Any suggestions?
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have always been very honest with my three children 16, 13, and 9, about
our finances. We have always made a practice of shopping clearance, yard sales,
thrift stores, and also freecycling. Since I have always worked in retail,
and very savvy about the cycle of seasonal transitions. Get to know when your
local retailers are transitioning each department, and you can save a lot of
money on clearance items that are discontinued. My children are also aware if
this practice, and know that they can probably wait a little longer for certain
items that will eventually be clearanced. It's fun to watch their sense of
accomplishment when they get a bargain.
We do not pay them for regular household chores, because they are part of
their family responsibility. I keep a list of extra work around the house that
they can get paid for. They also make their own money with a variety of
different jobs. My oldest daughter baby-sits, and will be starting a new job soon.
She's also great at recycling clothes, and making new creations out of them.
My son collects golf balls from the golf course and resells them to the
golfers, does some pet sitting, and helps some of our elderly neighbors with heavy
chores.
My youngest daughter is still learning, and can be a bit needy at times, but
I have confidence that she will catch on too.
Even when finances are not so tight, I like for them to learn to save the
surplus and invest it for the future.
I have also heard the argument that our family and home aren't good enough
for my oldest dd. When it's just me, I would let it roll off of my back, and
don't take it personally. If the younger ones are around to overhear it, then we
will all sit down and discuss it, so that everyone has a chance to voice their
own opinion. It was more common when she was in school, and the fact that we
live in an upscale neighborhood didn't help. She has since grown and matured,
and has learned that life is so much more than make-up, hair, and material
things.
Elaine
In a message dated 6/18/2004 8:20:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
litlrooh@... writes:
I have not "required" chores from my kids for a long time, but I do ask for
help when I need it.
As of late, my 12 year old is constantly asking me to run here everywhere,
asking to have friends over, wanting me to buy her hair dye, wanting her hair
cut, asking me to pay for makeup, asking me for money at the pool, at swim
meets, etc.
Her requests seem to come several times a day, 10 requests in a day would not
be an exagerration.
She really does not seem aware of how much she asks for. And she constantly
complains like our family and our home are not good enough for her.
Although I have asked if she could help me out (and in a nice way) she
continually says "no, she doesn't feel like it".
Once again, today, she said she would help out and do some stuff for me
if.......
Now the time has come, she wants me to drive her to somewhere, and once again
she has done absolutely NOTHING to help me out.
I am feeling VERY taken advantage of and overwhelmed with the stuff that
needs done in between running her everywhere.
In addition I am broke, and I cannot afford to give her more money. She has
already gotten so much that I can't even give any to the other kids.
Should I drive her? I"m really inclined to say "no".
I've already switched from using an ATM card to using cash, so that they can
visually see that when its gone, its gone. And in order to be able to afford
hair dye, SHE had to make the grocery list so that I had enough to buy
groceries and give her the money for the dye. I also did this so that I would not
have to hear her complain about the lack of stuff to eat here.
Any suggestions?
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
old do you think a child would need to be before this could be
helpful? Obviously it will depend on the child, too. My son's seven
and I'm trying to figure out if there's a version of this that might
work for him. Thoughts?
Peace,
Amy
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
> Give her money.I realize this was a response for a 12-year-old -- I'm wondering how
>
> Sit down together - figure out how much money you're spending on the
> kinds of things she typically requests -- could be things like,
> clothing, hair dye, hair cuts, jewelry, music, concerts, books, gifts
> for friends, cute little knick-knacks, special shampoo, perfume, hair
> ties, shoes, socks, photos, movie tickets, etc.
>
> Brainstorm a list like this for yourselves - think about what you've
> given her money for or bought or paid for, for her, in the past few
> months.
>
> Add it up and figure out a reasonably good estimate of an average month.
old do you think a child would need to be before this could be
helpful? Obviously it will depend on the child, too. My son's seven
and I'm trying to figure out if there's a version of this that might
work for him. Thoughts?
Peace,
Amy
pam sorooshian
On Jun 19, 2004, at 9:06 PM, arcarpenter2003 wrote:
I wanted to say that the $50 number was just a number I pulled out of
thin air - the number would depend on what you included in the list of
things they should then pay for. We included ALL clothing and shoes -
this for a teenage girl who had suddenly started being interested in
trendy clothing. The very first month she got her money, she magically
discovered thrift stores and got interested in sewing and altering
clothing.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
>> Add it up and figure out a reasonably good estimate of an averageI think we did it with Roya when she was about 15, for the first time.
>> month.
>
> I realize this was a response for a 12-year-old -- I'm wondering how
> old do you think a child would need to be before this could be
> helpful? Obviously it will depend on the child, too. My son's seven
> and I'm trying to figure out if there's a version of this that might
> work for him. Thoughts?
I wanted to say that the $50 number was just a number I pulled out of
thin air - the number would depend on what you included in the list of
things they should then pay for. We included ALL clothing and shoes -
this for a teenage girl who had suddenly started being interested in
trendy clothing. The very first month she got her money, she magically
discovered thrift stores and got interested in sewing and altering
clothing.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Danielle Conger
I realize this was a response for a 12-year-old -- I'm wondering how
My kids are 6, 5 and 4, and here's what we do, which has been pretty
successful.
A while back, we read an email called the sustainable earth--it's a book,
too, I think.
"If the world were a village of 100 people..." Lots of the statistics are
exaggerated, I'm told, but it's interesting nonetheless. The statistics say
things like most of the world lives on less than $2 a day, so we decided to
figure out how much money we live on per day, and our budget developed out
of this.
Basically, we figured out our major expenses on an excel spreadsheet that I
use to track our monthly household expenses. We just used the big
categories like mortgage, car (insurance and gas), groceries, utilities and
savings. We took the percentage of our entire household income that goes
towards each category, say 13% or 5%, whatever. Once we figured out that
percentage, the kids chose a dollar amount that they wanted as their monthly
income--we settled on $40 a month per child. I wanted something big enough
that they actually had a sense of what it was like to take care of monthly
expenses--what I do each month to keep the household running. The kids pay
out the same percentage from their monthly income that I do for each
category, and whatever is left over is theirs to spend. So, for instance,
if our mortgage is 13% of our total household income, then the kids would
take 13% of their $40 to put in the mortgage envelope.
We chose to do it this way because this is how we deal with money, and we
wanted our kids to see and understand that. A certain amount comes in; a
certain amount goes out. We try to put a percentage into savings each month,
and the rest is mine or dh's or the kids' to play with--clothes, toys,
books, movies, whatever. We don't tie the kids' money to chores--it's just
their income. In the same way that I don't have to do certain chores each
month to get money from dh. I get money by being a member of the household
even though I don't actively bring money into the house.
Two weeks ago, the kids each opened a savings account, and the $5 that is
budgeted
for savings will go into their account instead of the household account
where it used to go.
That way they'll get to see money accrue over time without have to take it
out of the $6.60
they get each month, which isn't a lot.
The kids actually like paying the bills each month, and I think it really
gives them a clear sense of where the money goes. Even though they're young,
they understand that we have to pay for water and electricity and insurance
in the same way that we pay for groceries and toys. Doing the budget this
way takes the hidden expenses of a household and makes them real and
visible. The kids are very understanding when I pay bills twice each month,
and they're happy to give me the 15 or 20 minutes that it takes to get it
done because they know it's important. They also seem to understand more
clearly when I say that we can't afford to do something or buy something
because they *know* where our money is actually going. The older two,
anyway, get that there's only a limited amount of money coming in each month
and that it has to go specific places before we can spend any. I think the
biggest
thing is transparency--letting the kids see the money coming in and going
out and all
the things we do to keep track of it. The kids see me not only paying bills,
but entering
our receipts into an excel spreadsheet every month, keeping track of what
we've spent
and where it's gone.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
> old do you think a child would need to be before this could be=============
> helpful? Obviously it will depend on the child, too. My son's seven
> and I'm trying to figure out if there's a version of this that might
> work for him.
My kids are 6, 5 and 4, and here's what we do, which has been pretty
successful.
A while back, we read an email called the sustainable earth--it's a book,
too, I think.
"If the world were a village of 100 people..." Lots of the statistics are
exaggerated, I'm told, but it's interesting nonetheless. The statistics say
things like most of the world lives on less than $2 a day, so we decided to
figure out how much money we live on per day, and our budget developed out
of this.
Basically, we figured out our major expenses on an excel spreadsheet that I
use to track our monthly household expenses. We just used the big
categories like mortgage, car (insurance and gas), groceries, utilities and
savings. We took the percentage of our entire household income that goes
towards each category, say 13% or 5%, whatever. Once we figured out that
percentage, the kids chose a dollar amount that they wanted as their monthly
income--we settled on $40 a month per child. I wanted something big enough
that they actually had a sense of what it was like to take care of monthly
expenses--what I do each month to keep the household running. The kids pay
out the same percentage from their monthly income that I do for each
category, and whatever is left over is theirs to spend. So, for instance,
if our mortgage is 13% of our total household income, then the kids would
take 13% of their $40 to put in the mortgage envelope.
We chose to do it this way because this is how we deal with money, and we
wanted our kids to see and understand that. A certain amount comes in; a
certain amount goes out. We try to put a percentage into savings each month,
and the rest is mine or dh's or the kids' to play with--clothes, toys,
books, movies, whatever. We don't tie the kids' money to chores--it's just
their income. In the same way that I don't have to do certain chores each
month to get money from dh. I get money by being a member of the household
even though I don't actively bring money into the house.
Two weeks ago, the kids each opened a savings account, and the $5 that is
budgeted
for savings will go into their account instead of the household account
where it used to go.
That way they'll get to see money accrue over time without have to take it
out of the $6.60
they get each month, which isn't a lot.
The kids actually like paying the bills each month, and I think it really
gives them a clear sense of where the money goes. Even though they're young,
they understand that we have to pay for water and electricity and insurance
in the same way that we pay for groceries and toys. Doing the budget this
way takes the hidden expenses of a household and makes them real and
visible. The kids are very understanding when I pay bills twice each month,
and they're happy to give me the 15 or 20 minutes that it takes to get it
done because they know it's important. They also seem to understand more
clearly when I say that we can't afford to do something or buy something
because they *know* where our money is actually going. The older two,
anyway, get that there's only a limited amount of money coming in each month
and that it has to go specific places before we can spend any. I think the
biggest
thing is transparency--letting the kids see the money coming in and going
out and all
the things we do to keep track of it. The kids see me not only paying bills,
but entering
our receipts into an excel spreadsheet every month, keeping track of what
we've spent
and where it's gone.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
christy_imnotred
> I realize this was a response for a 12-year-old -- I'm wondering howseven
> old do you think a child would need to be before this could be
> helpful? Obviously it will depend on the child, too. My son's
> and I'm trying to figure out if there's a version of this that mightWe do this to an extent with our 4 year old. Toys and snacks when we
> work for him. Thoughts?
>
> Peace,
> Amy
are out are all that is on his list, but he does understand the
concept of money and that when it is gone he is done. He is really
good at saving for big items. He gets his money once a week because
I don't think he could budget for a month at this point, but he does
really well week by week with some reminders from mom. And it has
really cut down on him asking for stuff all the time.
Christy
profjen1
I"m not sure I follow--are you saying that discussing differences in
family/country economics is damaging to the parent/child relationship?
~PJ
compared to [yours as a kid? children starving in China?] it's
probably not doing them or you any good, and could be doing damage to
your/mom's credibility and the relationship between parent and child.
what the danger/cost could be.
family/country economics is damaging to the parent/child relationship?
~PJ
> > I'm always telling my kids that they have nooccasionally) telling them they should appreciate their lives as
> > idea of all the things that they have and the things they
> > do.
>
> ----------
>
> "Always"?
>
> They only know their own lives. If you're "always" (or even
compared to [yours as a kid? children starving in China?] it's
probably not doing them or you any good, and could be doing damage to
your/mom's credibility and the relationship between parent and child.
>shame the hearer. Try to be aware of what you're saying and why and
> "I had to walk three miles in the snow" stories are intended to
what the danger/cost could be.
>
> Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/21/2004 11:05:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, profjen1@... writes:
A shorter one could be:
-=- If you're "always" . . . telling them [ANYthing] it's
probably not doing them or you any good, and could be doing damage
-=-
Repeatedly telling a child something ("always telling") is ragging on them.
-=I"m not sure I follow--are you saying that discussing differences in
family/country economics is damaging to the parent/child relationship?-=-
Did it sound like I said that?
Discussing differences and discussing economics isn't the same as always telling them that they have cushy lives compared to parents or others.
Saying "Your life is luxurious" is often a backhanded way to say "stop whining," or "Be grateful" or "You are ignorant of realities and should be more appreciative."
Those aren't nice things to say, really.
And if someone "ALWAYS" says things like that, it's not indicative of a healthy attitude (on the part of the parent) nor will it create a better attitude in the child.
"I'm always telling my child his life is WAY better than mine was" does not equal "We have discussed economics."
Sandra
> If you're "always" (or evenThat's the longer quote of me.
> occasionally) telling them they should appreciate their lives as
> compared to [yours as a kid? children starving in China?] it's
> probably not doing them or you any good, and could be doing damage to
> your/mom's credibility and the relationship between parent
> and child.
A shorter one could be:
-=- If you're "always" . . . telling them [ANYthing] it's
probably not doing them or you any good, and could be doing damage
-=-
Repeatedly telling a child something ("always telling") is ragging on them.
-=I"m not sure I follow--are you saying that discussing differences in
family/country economics is damaging to the parent/child relationship?-=-
Did it sound like I said that?
Discussing differences and discussing economics isn't the same as always telling them that they have cushy lives compared to parents or others.
Saying "Your life is luxurious" is often a backhanded way to say "stop whining," or "Be grateful" or "You are ignorant of realities and should be more appreciative."
Those aren't nice things to say, really.
And if someone "ALWAYS" says things like that, it's not indicative of a healthy attitude (on the part of the parent) nor will it create a better attitude in the child.
"I'm always telling my child his life is WAY better than mine was" does not equal "We have discussed economics."
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
Just wanted to write a quick thank you to all who responded. I was working over the weekend and tried to reply through my webmail but that didn't work and we got too busy for me to try anything else.
Then I got home and I had to reformat my hard drive. So I"ve lost all the original responses.
I appreciate all the help. Julie, your posts hit the nail right on the head.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Then I got home and I had to reformat my hard drive. So I"ve lost all the original responses.
I appreciate all the help. Julie, your posts hit the nail right on the head.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<I"m not sure I follow--are you saying that discussing differences in
family/country economics is damaging to the parent/child relationship?>>>
<<<telling them they should appreciate their lives as
compared to [yours as a kid? children starving in China?] >>>
When I was a child my mother used to say, "There are children starving in
India", entirely in order to guilt me into finishing the food on my plate. I
remember finally saying "they can have this then" and being sent to the
kitchen to finish eating standing up at the counter. I also remember
continuing to *think* "send them this" with resentment ever after when my
mother came out with her phrase. I guess she heard it when she was young. We
were both very overweight as pre-teens, and shoveled our food in FAST.
It was hardly a discussion of economics, and completely damaging to our
already damaged relationship. At the time we lived in a place where hungry
and desperately poor hordes seemed all around us - Hong Kong in the 1960's.
My mother was born in 1934 - the height of the Depression - with "Do not
waste" anything being the mantra of her parents. My grandmother used to save
every leftover (from the pot - plates had to be cleaned remember!), wrapped
in aluminum foil in the fridge, intending to have it with an egg the next
day but rarely doing so. There were always numerous unidentified packages in
there that eventually had to be tossed. Yet they had no compost heap in
their garden, as I now recall. Only leaves and grass clippings were used as
mulch.
I remember being either hungry - no snacks - and looking longingly at the
color pages of cookbooks, or feeling over-stuffed. I remember white linen
table cloths and napkins in each person's silver napkin ring engraved with
our names sitting in a basket on the table. Mine was small with etched
diamond shapes, my grandparents were wider oval shapes. Nan had a spare set
that were bamboo with some asian carving on them that might have been sent
from Hong Kong, and were used for guests.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
family/country economics is damaging to the parent/child relationship?>>>
<<<telling them they should appreciate their lives as
compared to [yours as a kid? children starving in China?] >>>
When I was a child my mother used to say, "There are children starving in
India", entirely in order to guilt me into finishing the food on my plate. I
remember finally saying "they can have this then" and being sent to the
kitchen to finish eating standing up at the counter. I also remember
continuing to *think* "send them this" with resentment ever after when my
mother came out with her phrase. I guess she heard it when she was young. We
were both very overweight as pre-teens, and shoveled our food in FAST.
It was hardly a discussion of economics, and completely damaging to our
already damaged relationship. At the time we lived in a place where hungry
and desperately poor hordes seemed all around us - Hong Kong in the 1960's.
My mother was born in 1934 - the height of the Depression - with "Do not
waste" anything being the mantra of her parents. My grandmother used to save
every leftover (from the pot - plates had to be cleaned remember!), wrapped
in aluminum foil in the fridge, intending to have it with an egg the next
day but rarely doing so. There were always numerous unidentified packages in
there that eventually had to be tossed. Yet they had no compost heap in
their garden, as I now recall. Only leaves and grass clippings were used as
mulch.
I remember being either hungry - no snacks - and looking longingly at the
color pages of cookbooks, or feeling over-stuffed. I remember white linen
table cloths and napkins in each person's silver napkin ring engraved with
our names sitting in a basket on the table. Mine was small with etched
diamond shapes, my grandparents were wider oval shapes. Nan had a spare set
that were bamboo with some asian carving on them that might have been sent
from Hong Kong, and were used for guests.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/22/2004 6:19:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
My grandmother used to save
every leftover (from the pot - plates had to be cleaned remember!), wrapped
in aluminum foil in the fridge, intending to have it with an egg the next
day but rarely doing so. There were always numerous unidentified packages in
there that eventually had to be tossed.
<<<<<
My mother still does that. Look into her refrigerator: you'll find dozens of
little plates and bowls, covered with saran wrap---maybe with 11 lima beans
in it or one slice of a tomato or a spoonful of corn.
Crazy. Eat it, give it to the dog, or compost it.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
My grandmother used to save
every leftover (from the pot - plates had to be cleaned remember!), wrapped
in aluminum foil in the fridge, intending to have it with an egg the next
day but rarely doing so. There were always numerous unidentified packages in
there that eventually had to be tossed.
<<<<<
My mother still does that. Look into her refrigerator: you'll find dozens of
little plates and bowls, covered with saran wrap---maybe with 11 lima beans
in it or one slice of a tomato or a spoonful of corn.
Crazy. Eat it, give it to the dog, or compost it.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
profjen1
Words that simply accompany actions aren't discussions. I certainly
agree with that. It did sound like Sandra was saying not to discuss
people whose economic situations were worse than yours . . . which is
why I asked.
It sounds, though, like it's not what was said, but what was done was
the problem.
There are few Americans who shouldn't appreciate their lives in
contrast to virtually anywhere else in the world.
~PJ
agree with that. It did sound like Sandra was saying not to discuss
people whose economic situations were worse than yours . . . which is
why I asked.
It sounds, though, like it's not what was said, but what was done was
the problem.
There are few Americans who shouldn't appreciate their lives in
contrast to virtually anywhere else in the world.
~PJ
> <<<I"m not sure I follow--are you saying that discussing differences inrelationship?>>>
> family/country economics is damaging to the parent/child
>starving in
> <<<telling them they should appreciate their lives as
> compared to [yours as a kid? children starving in China?] >>>
>
> When I was a child my mother used to say, "There are children
> India", entirely in order to guilt me into finishing the food on myplate. I
> remember finally saying "they can have this then" and being sent to thewhen my
> kitchen to finish eating standing up at the counter. I also remember
> continuing to *think* "send them this" with resentment ever after
> mother came out with her phrase. I guess she heard it when she wasyoung. We
> were both very overweight as pre-teens, and shoveled our food in FAST.hungry
>
> It was hardly a discussion of economics, and completely damaging to our
> already damaged relationship. At the time we lived in a place where
> and desperately poor hordes seemed all around us - Hong Kong in the1960's.
> Robyn L. Coburn
Elizabeth Hill
** There are few Americans who shouldn't appreciate their lives in
contrast to virtually anywhere else in the world. **
(uh-oh --- warning: "should" is not one of my favorite words)
Appreciation is not best created by saying "you should appreciate this."
Guilt is not the best technique for making people feel authentically
grateful.
Betsy
contrast to virtually anywhere else in the world. **
(uh-oh --- warning: "should" is not one of my favorite words)
Appreciation is not best created by saying "you should appreciate this."
Guilt is not the best technique for making people feel authentically
grateful.
Betsy
[email protected]
<< ** There are few Americans who shouldn't appreciate their lives in
contrast to virtually anywhere else in the world. ** >>
My point was missed.
I thought I wrote clearly.
Telling someone something repeatedly ("I tell them all the time" or whatever)
is probably a mistake if the goal is a good relationship with that person.
Maybe more parents should appreciate their lives in contrast to families in
which the parents have already totally botched the relationship with their
children. If your kids are still talking to you freely, and care about what you
have to say, don't ruin it by mouthing platitudes. Really TALK to them, about
themselves, your real feelings, not your theoretical feelings or statistical
feelings or statements about what you think they SHOULD appreciate. What about
what you as a parent DO appreciate, and what your kids appreciate? You
don't need to have stock dialogs, generic conversations.
There are things I've told my kids too many times. I should have thought of
other ways to convey my concerns.
Sandra
contrast to virtually anywhere else in the world. ** >>
My point was missed.
I thought I wrote clearly.
Telling someone something repeatedly ("I tell them all the time" or whatever)
is probably a mistake if the goal is a good relationship with that person.
Maybe more parents should appreciate their lives in contrast to families in
which the parents have already totally botched the relationship with their
children. If your kids are still talking to you freely, and care about what you
have to say, don't ruin it by mouthing platitudes. Really TALK to them, about
themselves, your real feelings, not your theoretical feelings or statistical
feelings or statements about what you think they SHOULD appreciate. What about
what you as a parent DO appreciate, and what your kids appreciate? You
don't need to have stock dialogs, generic conversations.
There are things I've told my kids too many times. I should have thought of
other ways to convey my concerns.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/22/2004 1:04:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
attitude in the child.
"I'm always telling my child his life is WAY better than mine was" does not
equal "We have discussed economics."<<<
---------------------------------
Often in our family we'll all be sitting around talking (even more so when a
relative is here) and we will instead tell funny stories about our lives as
kids in the "70's" and how different things were.
For example, we had one car, and if we wanted to go anywhere we'd have to get
up at the crack of dawn and drive our dad to work, then pick him up. My
sister and I would have to sit in the back of that hot, vinyl seated car and sweat
watching the airplane plant for our dad to walk out. It always felt so good
when we'd see him walking toward us with his lunch pail swinging!
Or stuff like having one TV, with the dial knob, and only about 8 channels to
choose from. My husband grew up with only 3 channels, and at one time they
had to use 2 TV's...one on the bottom had a picture and no sound, and the one
on top with sound but no picture!! Or our one video game being "Pong." Woo
hoo!! LOL...we'd still spend hours playing it!!
Telling interesting, funny stories from our childhood, not meant in the least
to shame or make our kids feel more thankful for what they have, stick with a
kid much more than lecturing, I think. I know the stories I heard from my
mom really touched me and made me appreciate how hard her life was, and how well
she rose above it.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
>>>And if someone "ALWAYS" says things like that, it's not indicative of ahealthy attitude (on the part of the parent) nor will it create a better
attitude in the child.
"I'm always telling my child his life is WAY better than mine was" does not
equal "We have discussed economics."<<<
---------------------------------
Often in our family we'll all be sitting around talking (even more so when a
relative is here) and we will instead tell funny stories about our lives as
kids in the "70's" and how different things were.
For example, we had one car, and if we wanted to go anywhere we'd have to get
up at the crack of dawn and drive our dad to work, then pick him up. My
sister and I would have to sit in the back of that hot, vinyl seated car and sweat
watching the airplane plant for our dad to walk out. It always felt so good
when we'd see him walking toward us with his lunch pail swinging!
Or stuff like having one TV, with the dial knob, and only about 8 channels to
choose from. My husband grew up with only 3 channels, and at one time they
had to use 2 TV's...one on the bottom had a picture and no sound, and the one
on top with sound but no picture!! Or our one video game being "Pong." Woo
hoo!! LOL...we'd still spend hours playing it!!
Telling interesting, funny stories from our childhood, not meant in the least
to shame or make our kids feel more thankful for what they have, stick with a
kid much more than lecturing, I think. I know the stories I heard from my
mom really touched me and made me appreciate how hard her life was, and how well
she rose above it.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/2004 12:20:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
profjen1@... writes:
people whose economic situations were worse than yours . . . which is
why I asked. <<
-------------------------------------
We get National Geographic, and our kids always look at it, so I know they
have to realize how much better off Americans are than the rest of the world.
We'd also sometimes pick up the free Maryknoll magazines after Church and look
at them. I guess the key is to talk about them without telling the kids how
much better they have things. That's easy enough to figure out by just looking
at the pictures!
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
profjen1@... writes:
>>Words that simply accompany actions aren't discussions. I certainlyagree with that. It did sound like Sandra was saying not to discuss
people whose economic situations were worse than yours . . . which is
why I asked. <<
-------------------------------------
We get National Geographic, and our kids always look at it, so I know they
have to realize how much better off Americans are than the rest of the world.
We'd also sometimes pick up the free Maryknoll magazines after Church and look
at them. I guess the key is to talk about them without telling the kids how
much better they have things. That's easy enough to figure out by just looking
at the pictures!
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/25/04 8:48:57 AM, CelticFrau@... writes:
<< Telling interesting, funny stories from our childhood, not meant in the
least
to shame or make our kids feel more thankful for what they have, stick with a
kid much more than lecturing, I think. I know the stories I heard from my
mom really touched me and made me appreciate how hard her life was, and how
well
she rose above it. >>
That's how it is here.
My mom was in Carlsbad, NM, during the war. She was a teenager. She used to
tell us stories about ration stamps, and about blackouts when the air raid
sirens sounded, and about kids learning to identify planes (adults too, but it
was a "war effort" thing kids did). I've thought sometimes about the
differences it would mean in our lives if we HAD to sometimes do sudden
lights-out/silence, and if we had to eat beans and biscuits day after day. I think about it,
but I don't use it to shame our kids.
We have a refrigerator magnet that's been there for years. It says "When I
was young we didn't have MTV. We had to take drugs and go to concerts."
When parents say "I wish I'd had this when I was a kid!" it still can move
kids to appreciate what they have, and to be aware of where they are on the
technological-advancement scale. People can discuss differences without aiming
to make the kids feel unappreciative.
Sandra
<< Telling interesting, funny stories from our childhood, not meant in the
least
to shame or make our kids feel more thankful for what they have, stick with a
kid much more than lecturing, I think. I know the stories I heard from my
mom really touched me and made me appreciate how hard her life was, and how
well
she rose above it. >>
That's how it is here.
My mom was in Carlsbad, NM, during the war. She was a teenager. She used to
tell us stories about ration stamps, and about blackouts when the air raid
sirens sounded, and about kids learning to identify planes (adults too, but it
was a "war effort" thing kids did). I've thought sometimes about the
differences it would mean in our lives if we HAD to sometimes do sudden
lights-out/silence, and if we had to eat beans and biscuits day after day. I think about it,
but I don't use it to shame our kids.
We have a refrigerator magnet that's been there for years. It says "When I
was young we didn't have MTV. We had to take drugs and go to concerts."
When parents say "I wish I'd had this when I was a kid!" it still can move
kids to appreciate what they have, and to be aware of where they are on the
technological-advancement scale. People can discuss differences without aiming
to make the kids feel unappreciative.
Sandra
nellebelle
> We have a refrigerator magnet that's been there for years. It says "WhenI
> was young we didn't have MTV. We had to take drugs and go toconcerts.">>>>>
We used to turn the music up, turn the TV on with volume off, and make our
own MTV; and yes, there were sometimes illicit substances involved. Oh,
those 70's!
Mary Ellen
J. Stauffer
<<<<We used to turn the music up, turn the TV on with volume off, and make
our
Julie S.---no longer stoned <grin>
our
> own MTV; and yes, there were sometimes illicit substances involved. Oh,We used to do this to Benny Hill reruns LOL.
> those 70's!>>>>
Julie S.---no longer stoned <grin>
----- Original Message -----
From: "nellebelle" <nellebelle@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Ok, frustrated here
> > We have a refrigerator magnet that's been there for years. It says
"When
> I
> > was young we didn't have MTV. We had to take drugs and go to
> concerts.">>>>>
>
> We used to turn the music up, turn the TV on with volume off, and make our
> own MTV; and yes, there were sometimes illicit substances involved. Oh,
> those 70's!
>
> Mary Ellen
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/26/2004 3:04:13 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
We used to do this to Benny Hill reruns LOL.
==========
I watched Benny Hill just to hear him do an American accent, to see what he
would screw up. The other humor was outdated or too British for me to fathom,
but sometimes he would do a country&western song, and I would listen to see
what he could pronounce "wrong."
Ever since, I've loved to hear Brits do American accents. Kenneth Branagh
in "Dead Again" only made one mistake, and a very minor one.
Lately there's a whole rash of Brits playing Americans, notably Colin
Farrell. Marty heard him doing his own voice and thought he was an American doing an
Irish accent. And Michael Caine, in Secondhand Lions, in the extras on the
DVD talks about how he was coached to do a Texas accent. It wasn't perfect,
but in some bursts it was stunning. And his character (as we had already
discussed as we watched it and as he pointed out too) was supposed to have been in
Europe and Africa for most of his life.
So anyway, I would never have been able to turn the sound off on Benny Hill,
tacky-awful show that it was. <bwg>
Oh, and one actor I can rarely understand at all is Robert Carlyle, but he
was on a James Bond movie doing a Russian accent, and I could understand him
perfectly well.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
We used to do this to Benny Hill reruns LOL.
==========
I watched Benny Hill just to hear him do an American accent, to see what he
would screw up. The other humor was outdated or too British for me to fathom,
but sometimes he would do a country&western song, and I would listen to see
what he could pronounce "wrong."
Ever since, I've loved to hear Brits do American accents. Kenneth Branagh
in "Dead Again" only made one mistake, and a very minor one.
Lately there's a whole rash of Brits playing Americans, notably Colin
Farrell. Marty heard him doing his own voice and thought he was an American doing an
Irish accent. And Michael Caine, in Secondhand Lions, in the extras on the
DVD talks about how he was coached to do a Texas accent. It wasn't perfect,
but in some bursts it was stunning. And his character (as we had already
discussed as we watched it and as he pointed out too) was supposed to have been in
Europe and Africa for most of his life.
So anyway, I would never have been able to turn the sound off on Benny Hill,
tacky-awful show that it was. <bwg>
Oh, and one actor I can rarely understand at all is Robert Carlyle, but he
was on a James Bond movie doing a Russian accent, and I could understand him
perfectly well.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/25/2004 10:49:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:
older folks' stories about "how things were"! It is almost like living
history! I sure hope the way I tell my stories is enjoyable to my kids and grandkids
and their friends as it was and is for me! Maybe ithe difference in it being a
negative thing and a positive one is in the telling?
Síocháin ar domhan,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CelticFrau@... writes:
> Often in our family we'll all be sitting around talking (even more so whenYou know, my dad tells stories like this and my grandpa, too. I LOVE hearing
> a
> relative is here) and we will instead tell funny stories about our lives as
> kids in the "70's" and how different things were.
>
older folks' stories about "how things were"! It is almost like living
history! I sure hope the way I tell my stories is enjoyable to my kids and grandkids
and their friends as it was and is for me! Maybe ithe difference in it being a
negative thing and a positive one is in the telling?
Síocháin ar domhan,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]