Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Meet A Person Where She's At
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/2004 11:49:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
But when someone comes to a place like this, with a description like this
group has, they've already stepped to the far side of the continuum and
invited
people to help them see it more clearly.<<<<<
You'd THINK!!
But past events tell a different story! :-(
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
But when someone comes to a place like this, with a description like this
group has, they've already stepped to the far side of the continuum and
invited
people to help them see it more clearly.<<<<<
You'd THINK!!
But past events tell a different story! :-(
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/04 10:35:49 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< But when someone comes to a place like this, with a description like this
group has, they've already stepped to the far side of the continuum and
invited
people to help them see it more clearly.<<<<<
<<You'd THINK!!>>
I rightly assume, and am willing to act on my reasonable assumption. <g>
<<But past events tell a different story! :-( >>
Some people just don't know what they want. I refuse to believe anyone would
accidentally stumble in here and stay very long but still not know what the
topic of discussion involved. And anyone who CAN or has done so is (in my
opinion) not analytical enough in a philosophical way to be a good unschooler
anyway, and there's no sense blaming the rest of us.
Is it wrong, y'think, to assume that participants here (those who choose to
post, I mean) are intelligent adults? It amazes me when someone will say "you
don't treat me like you treat your children." Maybe they mean "you don't
let me fart around for six years, confident that I'll learn what I need." But
I think more often it means "You expected me to be an adult."
I think it would be much less respectful to treat people like they were
fragile or slow-witted.
Perhaps I'm off the topic, but probably that's okay. The world is full of
topics and facets thereof, and the past, presents and futures of those aspects,
and the connections of those to the badillion OTHER topics with their
umpty-dimensional realities.
Connections.
Some people are resistant. Some people aren't.
Sandra
<< But when someone comes to a place like this, with a description like this
group has, they've already stepped to the far side of the continuum and
invited
people to help them see it more clearly.<<<<<
<<You'd THINK!!>>
I rightly assume, and am willing to act on my reasonable assumption. <g>
<<But past events tell a different story! :-( >>
Some people just don't know what they want. I refuse to believe anyone would
accidentally stumble in here and stay very long but still not know what the
topic of discussion involved. And anyone who CAN or has done so is (in my
opinion) not analytical enough in a philosophical way to be a good unschooler
anyway, and there's no sense blaming the rest of us.
Is it wrong, y'think, to assume that participants here (those who choose to
post, I mean) are intelligent adults? It amazes me when someone will say "you
don't treat me like you treat your children." Maybe they mean "you don't
let me fart around for six years, confident that I'll learn what I need." But
I think more often it means "You expected me to be an adult."
I think it would be much less respectful to treat people like they were
fragile or slow-witted.
Perhaps I'm off the topic, but probably that's okay. The world is full of
topics and facets thereof, and the past, presents and futures of those aspects,
and the connections of those to the badillion OTHER topics with their
umpty-dimensional realities.
Connections.
Some people are resistant. Some people aren't.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 06/03/2004 1:51:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Couldn't it also be asked in an unschooling sense, as in why don't we
share unschooling with new adults using the same principles we use so
successfully with our children?
Others touched on this question, Sandra I think with the irony of
sharing unschooling in lecture form, to neat rows of note-takers. And I've been
wondering why I for one am endlessly patient and much more likely to respond
with humor to people who already "get" it than to people who don't seem to get it
at all. You'd think the latter would be more like children needing the best
I've got to offer.
And having rules, not taking people's feelings seriously when we think
they are "wrong" and sometimes just saying "because I said so, and if you
don't like it, you need to leave." I am NOT saying these things aren't necessary
in online adult conversation. But I'm uncomfortable to realize that learning
about unschooling can feel pretty authoritarian, if not like school then an
awful lot like professional experts or maybe church.
That kind of thing. Can unschooling be unschooled?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
>I really do wonder about this, and have before.
> Is it wrong, y'think, to assume that participants here (those who choose to
> post, I mean) are intelligent adults? It amazes me when someone will say
> "you
> don't treat me like you treat your children." Maybe they mean "you don't
> let me fart around for six years, confident that I'll learn what I need."
> But
> I think more often it means "You expected me to be an adult."
>
> I think it would be much less respectful to treat people like they were
> fragile or slow-witted.
>
Couldn't it also be asked in an unschooling sense, as in why don't we
share unschooling with new adults using the same principles we use so
successfully with our children?
Others touched on this question, Sandra I think with the irony of
sharing unschooling in lecture form, to neat rows of note-takers. And I've been
wondering why I for one am endlessly patient and much more likely to respond
with humor to people who already "get" it than to people who don't seem to get it
at all. You'd think the latter would be more like children needing the best
I've got to offer.
And having rules, not taking people's feelings seriously when we think
they are "wrong" and sometimes just saying "because I said so, and if you
don't like it, you need to leave." I am NOT saying these things aren't necessary
in online adult conversation. But I'm uncomfortable to realize that learning
about unschooling can feel pretty authoritarian, if not like school then an
awful lot like professional experts or maybe church.
That kind of thing. Can unschooling be unschooled?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
about something.
I worked at a computer help desk for years and even when I was
supposed to be doing something else, still got asked questions
because I gave nicer answers than some.
For a while, my dh and I were both working at A Famous University and
we'd see one of "our" professors on the news, as the world's leading
expert in such-and-such and we'd giggle about his/her inability to
find the on/off switch on his/her computer while being a genius in
other areas.
So now I give people the benefit of the doubt that they are generally
intelligent and just haven't used their brain enough in one
particular area, or haven't been exposed to some ideas, like
unschooling, or are so afraid (e.g., of having WILD children) that
they can't open their brains and see the button on the screen that
says "click here".
Sometimes I'm wrong, that's for sure.
--aj
> I think it would be much less respectful to treat people like theywere
> fragile or slow-witted.Scott Adams (Dilbert creator) has a great line: we're all idiots
about something.
I worked at a computer help desk for years and even when I was
supposed to be doing something else, still got asked questions
because I gave nicer answers than some.
For a while, my dh and I were both working at A Famous University and
we'd see one of "our" professors on the news, as the world's leading
expert in such-and-such and we'd giggle about his/her inability to
find the on/off switch on his/her computer while being a genius in
other areas.
So now I give people the benefit of the doubt that they are generally
intelligent and just haven't used their brain enough in one
particular area, or haven't been exposed to some ideas, like
unschooling, or are so afraid (e.g., of having WILD children) that
they can't open their brains and see the button on the screen that
says "click here".
Sometimes I'm wrong, that's for sure.
--aj
Elizabeth Hill
**And I've been
wondering why I for one am endlessly patient and much more likely to
respond
with humor to people who already "get" it than to people who don't seem
to get it
at all. You'd think the latter would be more like children needing the best
I've got to offer.**
I think that sometimes the people who "don't get it" aren't here asking
to "get it". They're just here to learn about "all the options", even
if they don't much like the sound of this one.
I've been thinking about some old flamewars, and I now think when
someone posts something like "now don't yell at me, but aren't your kids
going to all be rude and ignorant?" (less bluntly than that) they aren't
really wishing to have *their* minds changed. They may sincerely want
to know our reasons, but I think it's more likely that they just want to
pont out the error of our ways.
** And having rules, not taking people's feelings seriously when
we think
they are "wrong" and sometimes just saying "because I said so, and if you
don't like it, you need to leave." I am NOT saying these things aren't
necessary
in online adult conversation. But I'm uncomfortable to realize that
learning
about unschooling can feel pretty authoritarian, if not like school then an
awful lot like professional experts or maybe church.**
Oh, yeah. I think I see this. If there are many ways for our children
to learn, say "handwriting", why are there stricter guidelines about how
to unschool, or at least how to be within the boundary of "that's good
unschooling practice" rather than falling into "that's not good
unschooling practice".
People may be asking why they can't "unschool any way they want to".
What I don't understand is why people feel insulted if told "that's not
unschooling".
Betsy
wondering why I for one am endlessly patient and much more likely to
respond
with humor to people who already "get" it than to people who don't seem
to get it
at all. You'd think the latter would be more like children needing the best
I've got to offer.**
I think that sometimes the people who "don't get it" aren't here asking
to "get it". They're just here to learn about "all the options", even
if they don't much like the sound of this one.
I've been thinking about some old flamewars, and I now think when
someone posts something like "now don't yell at me, but aren't your kids
going to all be rude and ignorant?" (less bluntly than that) they aren't
really wishing to have *their* minds changed. They may sincerely want
to know our reasons, but I think it's more likely that they just want to
pont out the error of our ways.
** And having rules, not taking people's feelings seriously when
we think
they are "wrong" and sometimes just saying "because I said so, and if you
don't like it, you need to leave." I am NOT saying these things aren't
necessary
in online adult conversation. But I'm uncomfortable to realize that
learning
about unschooling can feel pretty authoritarian, if not like school then an
awful lot like professional experts or maybe church.**
Oh, yeah. I think I see this. If there are many ways for our children
to learn, say "handwriting", why are there stricter guidelines about how
to unschool, or at least how to be within the boundary of "that's good
unschooling practice" rather than falling into "that's not good
unschooling practice".
People may be asking why they can't "unschool any way they want to".
What I don't understand is why people feel insulted if told "that's not
unschooling".
Betsy
Have a Nice Day!
Those who think they can have both - unschooling and some reassurance
that they are fulfilling the requirements of school - feel threatened
when they have to make a true choice about what they believe about
education.
**************************
I think this is it in a nutshell. I don't think there is any such thing as middle ground when you are talking about unschooling.
The path to get there might take the middle ground, but when you're there, you're not in the middle anymore. You have to make a choice.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that they are fulfilling the requirements of school - feel threatened
when they have to make a true choice about what they believe about
education.
**************************
I think this is it in a nutshell. I don't think there is any such thing as middle ground when you are talking about unschooling.
The path to get there might take the middle ground, but when you're there, you're not in the middle anymore. You have to make a choice.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
wish I could do that, but I'm just not cut out for it."
Or, "I don't know how you do it. I'm just too ______________ to
unschool."
Those who think they can have both - unschooling and some reassurance
that they are fulfilling the requirements of school - feel threatened
when they have to make a true choice about what they believe about
education.
And there is just a lot of information on unschooling that is
inaccurate so people think they are unschooling when they are not (that
was me).
That's my take anyway.
Julie B
P.S. I came here initially for resources - you know, good ideas for
strewing. I had no idea that what I did wasn't "real" unschooling. It
took a month of reconsidering my entire parenting philosophy to "get
it" and I felt a bit chagrined on several occasions.
But the good news is that the constant affirmation that kids thrive
when respected, loved and attended to won the day. And my understanding
of unschooling expanded to include every aspect of parenting. I think
that's where the rubber meets the road.
I read on another site the other day: "We do classical schooling in the
mornings but unschool in the afternoons." Clearly there's lots of
misunderstanding of what unschooling is out there.
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
> What I don't understand is why people feel insulted if told "that'snot
> unschooling".Truth is, unschooling is cool. Most people who don't unchool say, "I
wish I could do that, but I'm just not cut out for it."
Or, "I don't know how you do it. I'm just too ______________ to
unschool."
Those who think they can have both - unschooling and some reassurance
that they are fulfilling the requirements of school - feel threatened
when they have to make a true choice about what they believe about
education.
And there is just a lot of information on unschooling that is
inaccurate so people think they are unschooling when they are not (that
was me).
That's my take anyway.
Julie B
P.S. I came here initially for resources - you know, good ideas for
strewing. I had no idea that what I did wasn't "real" unschooling. It
took a month of reconsidering my entire parenting philosophy to "get
it" and I felt a bit chagrined on several occasions.
But the good news is that the constant affirmation that kids thrive
when respected, loved and attended to won the day. And my understanding
of unschooling expanded to include every aspect of parenting. I think
that's where the rubber meets the road.
I read on another site the other day: "We do classical schooling in the
mornings but unschool in the afternoons." Clearly there's lots of
misunderstanding of what unschooling is out there.
[email protected]
ecsamhill@... writes:
different ways?"
I don't know. Would it be useful to think of the ways that what we do
to help people unschool successfully IS like unschooling itself? For example,
seems to me all those intriguing little hints and mentions in various
encounters could count as the strewing principle. <grin> JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm uncomfortable to realize thatPerhaps more like, why can't they "learn about unschooling lots of
> learning
> about unschooling can feel pretty authoritarian, if not like school then an
> awful lot like professional experts or maybe church.**
>
> Oh, yeah. I think I see this. If there are many ways for our children
> to learn, say "handwriting", why are there stricter guidelines about how
> to unschool, or at least how to be within the boundary of "that's good
> unschooling practice" rather than falling into "that's not good
> unschooling practice".
>
> People may be asking why they can't "unschool any way they want to".
different ways?"
I don't know. Would it be useful to think of the ways that what we do
to help people unschool successfully IS like unschooling itself? For example,
seems to me all those intriguing little hints and mentions in various
encounters could count as the strewing principle. <grin> JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/2004 4:20:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
What I don't understand is why people feel insulted if told "that's not
unschooling".
<<<<<<
Because we're a clique, Betsy!
Sheesh!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
What I don't understand is why people feel insulted if told "that's not
unschooling".
<<<<<<
Because we're a clique, Betsy!
Sheesh!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** Because we're a clique, Betsy!
Sheesh!**
Well, yeah, fer shure. (Smacks self in forehead.) But "some of my best
friends" use math workbooks. I'm tolerably tolerant. Mostly.
<eg>
Betsy
PS What I'm trying to say is that just because I don't like math
workbooks and don't bring them into my life doesn't mean that I don't
like people who DO use math workbooks and that I don't bring those
people into my life.
Wooooo! A quintuple negative!
Sheesh!**
Well, yeah, fer shure. (Smacks self in forehead.) But "some of my best
friends" use math workbooks. I'm tolerably tolerant. Mostly.
<eg>
Betsy
PS What I'm trying to say is that just because I don't like math
workbooks and don't bring them into my life doesn't mean that I don't
like people who DO use math workbooks and that I don't bring those
people into my life.
Wooooo! A quintuple negative!
Danielle Conger
> Those who think they can have both - unschooling and some reassuranceas middle ground when you are talking about unschooling.
> that they are fulfilling the requirements of school - feel threatened
> when they have to make a true choice about what they believe about
> education.
> **************************
> > I think this is it in a nutshell. I don't think there is any such thing
>you're not in the middle anymore. You have to make a choice.
> The path to get there might take the middle ground, but when you're there,
>==========================================
> Kristen
Gee, I don't think that's unschooling in a nutshell. My kids do things all
the time that could appear quite schooly and go far towards "fulfilling the
requirements of school." Those are exactly the kinds of things I talk about
for my portfolio reviews. Of course, my kids are still young so that could
change, but I kind of doubt it.
This morning for instance, Emily wanted to play a game where we tried to
come up with all the words that start with D. So, we were all calling out as
many D words as we could think of over second breakfast. Not long afterward,
she wanted to know what 9,999 + 203 was. She's fascinated by numbers and is
constantly asking me things like that. I don't know about hers, but boy,
have my math skills been sharpened over the past year!
What makes this unschooling is that I had nothing to do with either game. I
didn't sit the kids down and tell them that these were "good" things for
them to do and that they should really spend their time doing this rather
than playing x, y or z. I didn't make them do all the C words yesterday, the
B words the day before and the A words the day before that. We're not going
to do all the E words tomorrow or the next day unless that spontaneously
comes up in our living. I also didn't tell Em to go look the D words up in
the dictionary or to get a pencil and paper and figure out the addition
problem for herself. Those might have been very schooly responses. I did,
however, tell her later in the day after another addition lob that the neat
thing about number is when you add two even number or two odd numbers, the
answer is always even. But when you add and even plus an odd, then the
answer is odd. She thought that was pretty cool because she's interested in
evens and odds now. Come to think of it, I need to show her how to do the
evens/odds finger throwing game...
Back to my point: My youngest daughter is really into writing. She
painstakingly writes out all her favorite character's names in her diary,
loves to write with the quill she bought down in Colonial Williamsburg. I
figure the number of times she does this per month of her own accord go much
further toward her learning to write, spell and have good penmanship than
all the curriculum touted in the country and enforced on children today. My
kids are learning tremendous amounts every day, some of which is schooly
stuff.
I guess my point is that along with all the other wonderful, fun, amazing
things we do on a daily basis, several things "fulfilling the requirements
of school" emerge without fail and without force.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/04 12:15:12 PM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< And I've been
wondering why I for one am endlessly patient and much more likely to respond
with humor to people who already "get" it than to people who don't seem to
get it
at all. You'd think the latter would be more like children needing the best
I've got to offer. >>
Maybe because we all spend SO much time with our children we are impatient
with other adults who want to be treated like children?
Although I have a lot of confidence that my kids will learn what they need,
there are situations in which they need to be as alert as possible and do what
they went to do. Marty, when he played ice hockey. They need him to do his
best right then, or he's wasting the other kids' time and the coach's time.
Kirby, at karate. It's not okay to stop during a class and go look at the
photos on the wall.
-=- And having rules, -=-
Like guidelines for this list?
Holly has kids over. One left a can in the den. If it's still there in a
few hours, I'll ask him to go get it. It's not a rule, it's a principle. I
imagine, though, that someone else will pass through there later and bring it
upstairs. Or when these guys decide it's time to crush cans (we've saved cans
this week for them to crush because they like the can crusher we have mounted on
the wall), they'll probably remember it's down there.
Is that "a rule," that I think cans should be crushed and put in the
recycling? Probably. Maybe. If they want to continue to have overnighters here,
they'll do best not to waste time or be tacky. But they're not tacky, because
they like to be here.
-=-But I'm uncomfortable to realize that learning
about unschooling can feel pretty authoritarian.-=-
Nobody needs our permission, or our certification, or our ANYTHING to
unschool, or to learn about unschooling. They just need to be cooperative enough if
they want to stay on this list.
-=-Can unschooling be unschooled?-=-
Though I can point back to lots of things through the years that contributed
to my own understanding and ease with unschooling, when I decided I wanted to
do that, I had already looked at both unschooling and structured homeschooling
families. I subscribed to Growing Without Schooling. I bought and read a
copy of "Teach Your Own."
In those days, there was nothing like this available. People can learn as
much in a month now as took a year or more in those days. But they don't HAVE
to do that. They have tons of options, including asking around, subscribing to
HEM or Life Learning, reading Holt...
If people want to take a long time to get there, they can. If they want to
take a couple of giant steps and get there this week, they can. If they want
to waste a bunch of my time and insult me as they maybe think about getting
there, or say they've been there since their kids were born, or that they don't
have to listen to us, nanny-nanny-boo-boo, that's not okay with me. They can
go away and NOT waste my time; that's fine. But to stay in the faces of
unschoolers who just honestly want to discuss it on a more analytical level is
somewhere between immaturity and social vandalism. I don't want vandals to
gradually consider learning to stop painting fences and busting mailboxes. I want
them to stop all of a sudden or do it the hell away from MY yard. Because my
kids are living a happy unschooling life, and I don't want their back gate
wrecked, their trees toilet papered or their mother's time totally wasted.
Sandra
<< And I've been
wondering why I for one am endlessly patient and much more likely to respond
with humor to people who already "get" it than to people who don't seem to
get it
at all. You'd think the latter would be more like children needing the best
I've got to offer. >>
Maybe because we all spend SO much time with our children we are impatient
with other adults who want to be treated like children?
Although I have a lot of confidence that my kids will learn what they need,
there are situations in which they need to be as alert as possible and do what
they went to do. Marty, when he played ice hockey. They need him to do his
best right then, or he's wasting the other kids' time and the coach's time.
Kirby, at karate. It's not okay to stop during a class and go look at the
photos on the wall.
-=- And having rules, -=-
Like guidelines for this list?
Holly has kids over. One left a can in the den. If it's still there in a
few hours, I'll ask him to go get it. It's not a rule, it's a principle. I
imagine, though, that someone else will pass through there later and bring it
upstairs. Or when these guys decide it's time to crush cans (we've saved cans
this week for them to crush because they like the can crusher we have mounted on
the wall), they'll probably remember it's down there.
Is that "a rule," that I think cans should be crushed and put in the
recycling? Probably. Maybe. If they want to continue to have overnighters here,
they'll do best not to waste time or be tacky. But they're not tacky, because
they like to be here.
-=-But I'm uncomfortable to realize that learning
about unschooling can feel pretty authoritarian.-=-
Nobody needs our permission, or our certification, or our ANYTHING to
unschool, or to learn about unschooling. They just need to be cooperative enough if
they want to stay on this list.
-=-Can unschooling be unschooled?-=-
Though I can point back to lots of things through the years that contributed
to my own understanding and ease with unschooling, when I decided I wanted to
do that, I had already looked at both unschooling and structured homeschooling
families. I subscribed to Growing Without Schooling. I bought and read a
copy of "Teach Your Own."
In those days, there was nothing like this available. People can learn as
much in a month now as took a year or more in those days. But they don't HAVE
to do that. They have tons of options, including asking around, subscribing to
HEM or Life Learning, reading Holt...
If people want to take a long time to get there, they can. If they want to
take a couple of giant steps and get there this week, they can. If they want
to waste a bunch of my time and insult me as they maybe think about getting
there, or say they've been there since their kids were born, or that they don't
have to listen to us, nanny-nanny-boo-boo, that's not okay with me. They can
go away and NOT waste my time; that's fine. But to stay in the faces of
unschoolers who just honestly want to discuss it on a more analytical level is
somewhere between immaturity and social vandalism. I don't want vandals to
gradually consider learning to stop painting fences and busting mailboxes. I want
them to stop all of a sudden or do it the hell away from MY yard. Because my
kids are living a happy unschooling life, and I don't want their back gate
wrecked, their trees toilet papered or their mother's time totally wasted.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/04 2:20:48 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< If there are many ways for our children
to learn, say "handwriting", why are there stricter guidelines about how
to unschool, or at least how to be within the boundary of "that's good
unschooling practice" rather than falling into "that's not good
unschooling practice". >>
But if we can't read what they write, they don't "have handwriting" yet.
If kids aren't learning in a peaceful, natural way and if the parents are all
jittery and ready to give up at any moment, they don't "have unschooling" yet.
We don't have to tell them they are or aren't riding a bike. They either are
moving along without falling off, or they're not.
-=-What I don't understand is why people feel insulted if told "that's not
unschooling".-=-
Sometimes, I think they see that other people declared themselves to be
unschoolers, and they don't need to buy a curriculum or perform certain schoolish
duties or test-to-prove, and so they say "Oh! I'm an unschooler too!" I
think they might think it's the moment of saying "I'm an unschooler" that makes it
true, rather than considering that maybe others have thought, attempted,
tweaked and succeeded first and THEN said "I'm an unschooler."
Sandra
<< If there are many ways for our children
to learn, say "handwriting", why are there stricter guidelines about how
to unschool, or at least how to be within the boundary of "that's good
unschooling practice" rather than falling into "that's not good
unschooling practice". >>
But if we can't read what they write, they don't "have handwriting" yet.
If kids aren't learning in a peaceful, natural way and if the parents are all
jittery and ready to give up at any moment, they don't "have unschooling" yet.
We don't have to tell them they are or aren't riding a bike. They either are
moving along without falling off, or they're not.
-=-What I don't understand is why people feel insulted if told "that's not
unschooling".-=-
Sometimes, I think they see that other people declared themselves to be
unschoolers, and they don't need to buy a curriculum or perform certain schoolish
duties or test-to-prove, and so they say "Oh! I'm an unschooler too!" I
think they might think it's the moment of saying "I'm an unschooler" that makes it
true, rather than considering that maybe others have thought, attempted,
tweaked and succeeded first and THEN said "I'm an unschooler."
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/04 4:03:44 PM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< Perhaps more like, why can't they "learn about unschooling lots of
different ways?" >>
Can't they?
Have we ever kept anyone from learning all different ways?
Nobody can learn all about unschooling on this list and then go and begin to
do it. They need to see it in their kids, not in us. They need to feel it in
their own souls and bodies, not have us say "Yeah, okay, that's it."
-=-Would it be useful to think of the ways that what we do
to help people unschool successfully IS like unschooling itself? -=-
We're offering information and ideas. We're not "unschooling them." We're
providing a place for discussions, and trying to keep the discussions
productive.
Sandra
<< Perhaps more like, why can't they "learn about unschooling lots of
different ways?" >>
Can't they?
Have we ever kept anyone from learning all different ways?
Nobody can learn all about unschooling on this list and then go and begin to
do it. They need to see it in their kids, not in us. They need to feel it in
their own souls and bodies, not have us say "Yeah, okay, that's it."
-=-Would it be useful to think of the ways that what we do
to help people unschool successfully IS like unschooling itself? -=-
We're offering information and ideas. We're not "unschooling them." We're
providing a place for discussions, and trying to keep the discussions
productive.
Sandra
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
discussion (not just here but anywhere) might be productive. No?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> In a message dated 6/3/04 4:03:44 PM, jrossedd@... writes:I thought it was a productive discussion about ways unschooling
>
> << Perhaps more like, why can't they "learn about unschooling lots of
> different ways?" >>
>
> Can't they?
>
> Have we ever kept anyone from learning all different ways?
>
> Nobody can learn all about unschooling on this list and then go and begin to
>
> do it. They need to see it in their kids, not in us. They need to feel it
> in
> their own souls and bodies, not have us say "Yeah, okay, that's it."
>
> -=-Would it be useful to think of the ways that what we do
> to help people unschool successfully IS like unschooling itself? -=-
>
> We're offering information and ideas. We're not "unschooling them." We're
> providing a place for discussions, and trying to keep the discussions
> productive.
>
>
discussion (not just here but anywhere) might be productive. No?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/04 9:23:31 PM, jrossedd@... writes:
<<
I thought it was a productive discussion about ways unschooling
discussion (not just here but anywhere) might be productive. No? >>
I think this list is quite productive.
Unschooling.com's message boards are too.
We don't need to be anyone be-all/end-all.
Sandra
<<
I thought it was a productive discussion about ways unschooling
discussion (not just here but anywhere) might be productive. No? >>
I think this list is quite productive.
Unschooling.com's message boards are too.
We don't need to be anyone be-all/end-all.
Sandra
[email protected]
Sandra wrote:
<<<< That's sometimes the biggest jump. Sometimes someone can
unschool a while before moving toward having more real respect for
and faith in the child. >>>>>>
Took me about three years. . . . :-(
Betsy wrote:
<<<<<< We could discuss how we all came to unschooling, which
changes we made first and which later, if it was a slow process.
(which I think is different from unschooling) even later - it was a
slow - and sometimes painful process.
Partly because I was trained as a teacher (that's why the
unschooling
part took so long), partly because I had always been
"admired" (or
something - can't think of a better word - "looked-up-to"
or "respected" maybe?) as a really "good" mom by
both friends and
family, it took alot to shake those firm beliefs that I was doing the
RIGHT thing - the best thing. I realize now that it was my kids
ability to adapt to me that made me look so good. I controlled it
all - bedtime(curfew), food, videos, we didn't even have a TV,
schoolwork after we started homeschooling - and still my children
were respectful, happy (mostly), and "successful".
THEN
I found out that my boys - at 19 (while not living at home anymore)
and at 16 were making some choices that I was surprised at. I guess
surprised is too mild - devastated more like. The thing they were
doing wasn't horrible, or mean, or even unusual, but to me it was
devastating. I felt betrayed. I had done everything "right"
- how could this be?
Sandra wrote:
<<<<<< And anyone who CAN or has done so is (in my opinion) not
analytical enough in a philosophical way to be a good unschooler
anyway, and there's no sense blaming the rest of us. >>>>
My biggest problem was not seeing that traditional parenting
interferes with unschooling in a very big way. The biggest way.
I really think that as long as a child has a mindful parent, they can
sail through anything - that includes school. It's not ideal but
mindful parenting is the key.
Kristin writes:
<<<<<< But I'm really glad I persisted long enough to find them
because now it all makes total sense (and resembles common sense more
than anything "radical"). >>>>>
Common Sense Unschooling? Much more descriptive that radical
unschooling but not catchy enough. . .
Julie B wrote:
<<<<< It took a month of reconsidering my entire parenting
philosophy to "get it" and I felt a bit chagrined on several
occasions. >>>>>
Only a month????????
Mercedes
the slow one. . . . . . who spends alot of time pointing out to her
23yo and 19yo the insidious effects of having controlling
parents. . . . .
<<<< That's sometimes the biggest jump. Sometimes someone can
unschool a while before moving toward having more real respect for
and faith in the child. >>>>>>
Took me about three years. . . . :-(
Betsy wrote:
<<<<<< We could discuss how we all came to unschooling, which
changes we made first and which later, if it was a slow process.
>>>>>As one who came to unschooling very late - and mindful parenting
(which I think is different from unschooling) even later - it was a
slow - and sometimes painful process.
Partly because I was trained as a teacher (that's why the
unschooling
part took so long), partly because I had always been
"admired" (or
something - can't think of a better word - "looked-up-to"
or "respected" maybe?) as a really "good" mom by
both friends and
family, it took alot to shake those firm beliefs that I was doing the
RIGHT thing - the best thing. I realize now that it was my kids
ability to adapt to me that made me look so good. I controlled it
all - bedtime(curfew), food, videos, we didn't even have a TV,
schoolwork after we started homeschooling - and still my children
were respectful, happy (mostly), and "successful".
THEN
I found out that my boys - at 19 (while not living at home anymore)
and at 16 were making some choices that I was surprised at. I guess
surprised is too mild - devastated more like. The thing they were
doing wasn't horrible, or mean, or even unusual, but to me it was
devastating. I felt betrayed. I had done everything "right"
- how could this be?
Sandra wrote:
<<<<<< And anyone who CAN or has done so is (in my opinion) not
analytical enough in a philosophical way to be a good unschooler
anyway, and there's no sense blaming the rest of us. >>>>
My biggest problem was not seeing that traditional parenting
interferes with unschooling in a very big way. The biggest way.
I really think that as long as a child has a mindful parent, they can
sail through anything - that includes school. It's not ideal but
mindful parenting is the key.
Kristin writes:
<<<<<< But I'm really glad I persisted long enough to find them
because now it all makes total sense (and resembles common sense more
than anything "radical"). >>>>>
Common Sense Unschooling? Much more descriptive that radical
unschooling but not catchy enough. . .
Julie B wrote:
<<<<< It took a month of reconsidering my entire parenting
philosophy to "get it" and I felt a bit chagrined on several
occasions. >>>>>
Only a month????????
Mercedes
the slow one. . . . . . who spends alot of time pointing out to her
23yo and 19yo the insidious effects of having controlling
parents. . . . .
Have a Nice Day!
> Those who think they can have both - unschooling and some reassuranceas middle ground when you are talking about unschooling.
> that they are fulfilling the requirements of school - feel threatened
> when they have to make a true choice about what they believe about
> education.
> **************************
> > I think this is it in a nutshell. I don't think there is any such thing
>you're not in the middle anymore. You have to make a choice.
> The path to get there might take the middle ground, but when you're there,
>==========================================
> Kristen
Gee, I don't think that's unschooling in a nutshell. My kids do things all
the time that could appear quite schooly and go far towards "fulfilling the
requirements of school." Those are exactly the kinds of things I talk about
for my portfolio reviews.
**********************
But if your kids weren't doing stuff that looked like school for extended periods of time (like several months), would you be ok with that?
Its when kids elect to do their own thing and it *doesn't* look like school stuff that parents have to decide where they stand.
For us, that was where the rubber met the road.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** Have we ever kept anyone from learning all different ways? **
<g> Well, we TRY to discourage people from learning from big mistakes,
e.g. messing up the first kid badly and then deciding to raise the next
kid completely differently. BUT I think there are fine and valid
reasons for discouraging that kind of learning.
And sometimes we don't want people who are hemi-semi-demi-unschooling to
give us the credit for the (poor) outcome that we think they might
have. So they do get kind of "disavowed". They aren't told they must
change their ways. But they are told not to attribute their practices
to this list if we think their practices aren't sound. So to some
extent, this list tends to discourage the starting to unschool by
dipping your toe in slowly and then stopping method.
Betsy
<g> Well, we TRY to discourage people from learning from big mistakes,
e.g. messing up the first kid badly and then deciding to raise the next
kid completely differently. BUT I think there are fine and valid
reasons for discouraging that kind of learning.
And sometimes we don't want people who are hemi-semi-demi-unschooling to
give us the credit for the (poor) outcome that we think they might
have. So they do get kind of "disavowed". They aren't told they must
change their ways. But they are told not to attribute their practices
to this list if we think their practices aren't sound. So to some
extent, this list tends to discourage the starting to unschool by
dipping your toe in slowly and then stopping method.
Betsy
Elizabeth Hill
** << [Betsy] If there are many ways for our children
to learn, say "handwriting", why are there stricter guidelines about how
to unschool, or at least how to be within the boundary of "that's good
unschooling practice" rather than falling into "that's not good
unschooling practice". >>
[ Sandra ]But if we can't read what they write, they don't "have
handwriting" yet.
If kids aren't learning in a peaceful, natural way and if the parents
are all
jittery and ready to give up at any moment, they don't "have
unschooling" yet.**
A tranquilizer gun might come in handy for calming the most jittery
people down.<g> <kidding>
I was thinking that maybe a better way to rephrase the complaint --
"You're not treating me as well as you treat your kids" would be this:
""If it's okay for our kids to take 5 years before they come around to,
say, learning the multiplication table, why isn't it okay for someone to
take 5 years for a parent on this forum to be "developmentally ready" to
unschool? ""
Is it just that adults are full-grown and should already be mature
enough and developmentally ready for any grown-up task? Or is coming on
to the list and asking for information a sign of readiness? Is it a
misleading sign?
Overall, we are very patient with giving our children as much time and
attention as they need. I agree that it's not possible or desirable to
give list posters the same amount of attention that we give to our
children. But apparently that's what some people wish they could get.
Betsy
to learn, say "handwriting", why are there stricter guidelines about how
to unschool, or at least how to be within the boundary of "that's good
unschooling practice" rather than falling into "that's not good
unschooling practice". >>
[ Sandra ]But if we can't read what they write, they don't "have
handwriting" yet.
If kids aren't learning in a peaceful, natural way and if the parents
are all
jittery and ready to give up at any moment, they don't "have
unschooling" yet.**
A tranquilizer gun might come in handy for calming the most jittery
people down.<g> <kidding>
I was thinking that maybe a better way to rephrase the complaint --
"You're not treating me as well as you treat your kids" would be this:
""If it's okay for our kids to take 5 years before they come around to,
say, learning the multiplication table, why isn't it okay for someone to
take 5 years for a parent on this forum to be "developmentally ready" to
unschool? ""
Is it just that adults are full-grown and should already be mature
enough and developmentally ready for any grown-up task? Or is coming on
to the list and asking for information a sign of readiness? Is it a
misleading sign?
Overall, we are very patient with giving our children as much time and
attention as they need. I agree that it's not possible or desirable to
give list posters the same amount of attention that we give to our
children. But apparently that's what some people wish they could get.
Betsy
Elizabeth Hill
** THEN
I found out that my boys - at 19 (while not living at home anymore)
and at 16 were making some choices that I was surprised at. I guess
surprised is too mild - devastated more like. The thing they were
doing wasn't horrible, or mean, or even unusual, but to me it was
devastating. I felt betrayed. I had done everything "right"
- how could this be?
**
Hi, Mercedes --
I just wanted to make sure that you know that I hadn't read your post
when I wrote lightly about not wanting people to "learn about
unschooling" by messing up the first kid. I didn't mean to post
something that hits so close to home.
Sorry for say something that seemed so personal.
Betsy
I found out that my boys - at 19 (while not living at home anymore)
and at 16 were making some choices that I was surprised at. I guess
surprised is too mild - devastated more like. The thing they were
doing wasn't horrible, or mean, or even unusual, but to me it was
devastating. I felt betrayed. I had done everything "right"
- how could this be?
**
Hi, Mercedes --
I just wanted to make sure that you know that I hadn't read your post
when I wrote lightly about not wanting people to "learn about
unschooling" by messing up the first kid. I didn't mean to post
something that hits so close to home.
Sorry for say something that seemed so personal.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/04 10:42:48 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< So to some
extent, this list tends to discourage the starting to unschool by
dipping your toe in slowly and then stopping method. >>
I've never seen this list withhold a link or book recommendation. I've never
seen this list tell people anything remotely like "All the information you
need is here. Don't even look around. Don't use the real world, use just
exactly what we tell you."
-=-** Have we ever kept anyone from learning all different ways? **-=-
I think we haven't, haven't tried, and couldn't if we DID try.
But they cannot possibly learn all different ways on this list. This list is
just words. It's not personal experience with one's own child. It's not the
in-person observance of other homeschooling families. It's not feeling one's
feelings about childhood sorrows.
Sandra
<< So to some
extent, this list tends to discourage the starting to unschool by
dipping your toe in slowly and then stopping method. >>
I've never seen this list withhold a link or book recommendation. I've never
seen this list tell people anything remotely like "All the information you
need is here. Don't even look around. Don't use the real world, use just
exactly what we tell you."
-=-** Have we ever kept anyone from learning all different ways? **-=-
I think we haven't, haven't tried, and couldn't if we DID try.
But they cannot possibly learn all different ways on this list. This list is
just words. It's not personal experience with one's own child. It's not the
in-person observance of other homeschooling families. It's not feeling one's
feelings about childhood sorrows.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Jun 3, 2004, at 2:07 PM, jrossedd@... wrote:
reading books and articles about unschooling, reading email lists,
observing unschooled children and teens, asking questions of
unschoolers, asking questions of people who choose NOT to unschool,
going to conferences and listening to speakers, thinking about learning
and child development, pondering our own experience of schooling and
learning, finding out about other people's experiences, and, finally
and by FAR the most important - taking the plunge and learning how
unschooling works by DOING it.
I love the bike riding analogy - and have to say that no matter how
many articles one reads about bicycling or how much time spent watching
people ride bikes, you just can't really "get" bike riding until you
ride a bike. Unschooling is truly the same way.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Perhaps more like, why can't they "learn about unschooling lotsPeople learn about unschooling by talking to unschoolers in person,
> of
> different ways?"
reading books and articles about unschooling, reading email lists,
observing unschooled children and teens, asking questions of
unschoolers, asking questions of people who choose NOT to unschool,
going to conferences and listening to speakers, thinking about learning
and child development, pondering our own experience of schooling and
learning, finding out about other people's experiences, and, finally
and by FAR the most important - taking the plunge and learning how
unschooling works by DOING it.
I love the bike riding analogy - and have to say that no matter how
many articles one reads about bicycling or how much time spent watching
people ride bikes, you just can't really "get" bike riding until you
ride a bike. Unschooling is truly the same way.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
pam sorooshian
On Jun 3, 2004, at 6:50 PM, Danielle Conger wrote:
they are young, the school requirements are primarily intended to help
kids learn skills - reading, writing, basic numerical concepts. Well -
most of what young kids DO is helping them learn those things so it
isn't hard to see that they actually ARE fulfilling the requirements.
But - when the kids are older, the requirements are more specific.
Eighth grade is American History. If the kid is into Magic, the
Gathering, skateboarding, and Russian novels <G> it is hard to call
that fulfilling the American History requirement.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Gee, I don't think that's unschooling in a nutshell. My kids do thingsDanielle -- I think it IS really different as the kids get older. When
> all
> the time that could appear quite schooly and go far towards
> "fulfilling the
> requirements of school." Those are exactly the kinds of things I talk
> about
> for my portfolio reviews. Of course, my kids are still young so that
> could
> change, but I kind of doubt it.
they are young, the school requirements are primarily intended to help
kids learn skills - reading, writing, basic numerical concepts. Well -
most of what young kids DO is helping them learn those things so it
isn't hard to see that they actually ARE fulfilling the requirements.
But - when the kids are older, the requirements are more specific.
Eighth grade is American History. If the kid is into Magic, the
Gathering, skateboarding, and Russian novels <G> it is hard to call
that fulfilling the American History requirement.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
pam sorooshian
On Jun 3, 2004, at 9:48 PM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
we try to push them to make the leap quickly, it is because their 13 yo
whom they've just taken out of school and they're dithering about
unschooling - will be grown up and an adult by the time they finally
realize that they should have "just done it."
Kids grow up REALLY quickly.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> ""If it's okay for our kids to take 5 years before they come around to,They can take as long as they want, of course. But if you're asking why
> say, learning the multiplication table, why isn't it okay for someone
> to
> take 5 years for a parent on this forum to be "developmentally ready"
> to
> unschool? ""
>
> Is it just that adults are full-grown and should already be mature
> enough and developmentally ready for any grown-up task? Or is coming
> on
> to the list and asking for information a sign of readiness? Is it a
> misleading sign?
we try to push them to make the leap quickly, it is because their 13 yo
whom they've just taken out of school and they're dithering about
unschooling - will be grown up and an adult by the time they finally
realize that they should have "just done it."
Kids grow up REALLY quickly.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], "Danielle Conger"
<danielle.conger@c...> wrote:
here. Moms who "want both" usually mean they want to *ensure* that their children are
getting what they "need." They aren't focused on watching the learning process unfold and
then quantifying it for a year end assessment.
They are following a child's natural interests for some of the day and then using a
workbook for math. Or they are teaching an 8 year old how to read using a phonics
program, but are following a child's desires for non-essentials.
And you are right. As kids get older, anxiety grows. Moms want to be sure their kids aren't
missing anything that would be important. So instead of letting kids set the agenda, mom
tries to find better kid-friendly materials or allows the child to structure his day or she
uses a minimum of curricula with most of the day free.
All of these approaches are seen as unschooling in some circles. It was easier for me to
ignore school requirements when my kids were little. But the pressure to "prepare for
college" undid much of my early unschooling enthusiasm.
The only way I was able to make the shift myself was to completely give up fulfilling
college admissions requirements. I really had to face down my fears and admit that I was
still enmeshed with the education model that school offered me.
Once I let that go, I really did find unschooling to be something totally different than the
both/and model I had tried to make work before.
Julie B
<danielle.conger@c...> wrote:
> > Those who think they can have both - unschooling and some reassuranceMy original comment at the top comes from a different perspective than what you express
> > that they are fulfilling the requirements of school - feel threatened
> > when they have to make a true choice about what they believe about
> > education.
> > **************************
> > > I think this is it in a nutshell.
>
> Gee, I don't think that's unschooling in a nutshell. My kids do things all
> the time that could appear quite schooly and go far towards "fulfilling the
> requirements of school." Those are exactly the kinds of things I talk about
> for my portfolio reviews. Of course, my kids are still young so that could
> change, but I kind of doubt it.
> I guess my point is that along with all the other wonderful, fun, amazing
> things we do on a daily basis, several things "fulfilling the requirements
> of school" emerge without fail and without force.
>
> --Danielle
here. Moms who "want both" usually mean they want to *ensure* that their children are
getting what they "need." They aren't focused on watching the learning process unfold and
then quantifying it for a year end assessment.
They are following a child's natural interests for some of the day and then using a
workbook for math. Or they are teaching an 8 year old how to read using a phonics
program, but are following a child's desires for non-essentials.
And you are right. As kids get older, anxiety grows. Moms want to be sure their kids aren't
missing anything that would be important. So instead of letting kids set the agenda, mom
tries to find better kid-friendly materials or allows the child to structure his day or she
uses a minimum of curricula with most of the day free.
All of these approaches are seen as unschooling in some circles. It was easier for me to
ignore school requirements when my kids were little. But the pressure to "prepare for
college" undid much of my early unschooling enthusiasm.
The only way I was able to make the shift myself was to completely give up fulfilling
college admissions requirements. I really had to face down my fears and admit that I was
still enmeshed with the education model that school offered me.
Once I let that go, I really did find unschooling to be something totally different than the
both/and model I had tried to make work before.
Julie B
Danielle Conger
But if your kids weren't doing stuff that looked like school for extended
periods of time (like several months), would you be ok with that?
They do stuff all the time that doesn't look like "school stuff," but
they're still learning. I just don't believe it's possible to live in this
world and not learn. It honestly doesn't matter to me what they choose to
learn about or do as long as they are happy, growing and loving their life.
My kids go days without doing something that looks schooly, but invariably,
it pops up again. After the Survivor final show, the girls were writing all
kinds of names down on slips of paper and asked me for a pottery jug like
the one used in tribal councils. They played their own version of Survivor
for a week, writing names down on slips of paper every day. Writing.
Couldn't've, wouldn't've made 'em do it, but they did it on their own.
=================
Pam wrote:
But - when the kids are older, the requirements are more specific.
Eighth grade is American History. If the kid is into Magic, the
Gathering, skateboarding, and Russian novels <G> it is hard to call
that fulfilling the American History requirement.
=================
See, there's the rub. Maryland has this really annoying legal wording
"regular and thorough instruction in the subjects usually taught"--that's
what really gets me going. Why in the world, should a person have to learn
American History or anything for that matter just because someone else says
that it's time to do that? ARGH! That is my biggest, biggest beef with the
MD hsing law and with curriculum in general! Everything Pam named that the
child might be interested in offers wonderful learning opportunities. That
child, pursuing Magic, skateboarding and Russian novels, is learning a
tremendous amount, much of which could relatively easily be translated into
schooly terms though it likely looks nothing like school. The only thing
that has changed is that some arbitrary person has laid some arbitrary time
table over top a child's life and judged them unworthy.
Damn if I'd want someone to do that to my life! My passion for several years
has been learning all about gardening, landscaping, plant identification,
Latin names, etc. Now, I'm learning about chickens, heirloom breeds,
layers--chickens, for heaven's sake! Never would've predicted that! Point
is, I'm learning all the time about different things that fit no one's
timetable or agenda but my own (chickens don't even fit dh's, but we won't
go there *g*). But my life is rich, fulfilling and worthwhile.
Once we remove artificial timetables and expectations, kids learn. Many of
them even learn despite those things, but they shouldn't have to. Kids
learn all the time about all kinds of things in a way that's broader and
richer than any contrived curriculum could be. I honestly believe that. If I
can see all this in my children now and trust them to find their own path
through their world, then as they get older, that trust is the same. My
children may look different and their path may have changed, but my trust
and faith in them should be the same if not stronger because it has so many
years of foundation under it. That's what I hope for myself and my children
anyway. Time will tell.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
periods of time (like several months), would you be ok with that?
>school stuff that parents have to decide where they stand.
> Its when kids elect to do their own thing and it *doesn't* look like
>================
> For us, that was where the rubber met the road.
>
> Kristen
They do stuff all the time that doesn't look like "school stuff," but
they're still learning. I just don't believe it's possible to live in this
world and not learn. It honestly doesn't matter to me what they choose to
learn about or do as long as they are happy, growing and loving their life.
My kids go days without doing something that looks schooly, but invariably,
it pops up again. After the Survivor final show, the girls were writing all
kinds of names down on slips of paper and asked me for a pottery jug like
the one used in tribal councils. They played their own version of Survivor
for a week, writing names down on slips of paper every day. Writing.
Couldn't've, wouldn't've made 'em do it, but they did it on their own.
=================
Pam wrote:
But - when the kids are older, the requirements are more specific.
Eighth grade is American History. If the kid is into Magic, the
Gathering, skateboarding, and Russian novels <G> it is hard to call
that fulfilling the American History requirement.
=================
See, there's the rub. Maryland has this really annoying legal wording
"regular and thorough instruction in the subjects usually taught"--that's
what really gets me going. Why in the world, should a person have to learn
American History or anything for that matter just because someone else says
that it's time to do that? ARGH! That is my biggest, biggest beef with the
MD hsing law and with curriculum in general! Everything Pam named that the
child might be interested in offers wonderful learning opportunities. That
child, pursuing Magic, skateboarding and Russian novels, is learning a
tremendous amount, much of which could relatively easily be translated into
schooly terms though it likely looks nothing like school. The only thing
that has changed is that some arbitrary person has laid some arbitrary time
table over top a child's life and judged them unworthy.
Damn if I'd want someone to do that to my life! My passion for several years
has been learning all about gardening, landscaping, plant identification,
Latin names, etc. Now, I'm learning about chickens, heirloom breeds,
layers--chickens, for heaven's sake! Never would've predicted that! Point
is, I'm learning all the time about different things that fit no one's
timetable or agenda but my own (chickens don't even fit dh's, but we won't
go there *g*). But my life is rich, fulfilling and worthwhile.
Once we remove artificial timetables and expectations, kids learn. Many of
them even learn despite those things, but they shouldn't have to. Kids
learn all the time about all kinds of things in a way that's broader and
richer than any contrived curriculum could be. I honestly believe that. If I
can see all this in my children now and trust them to find their own path
through their world, then as they get older, that trust is the same. My
children may look different and their path may have changed, but my trust
and faith in them should be the same if not stronger because it has so many
years of foundation under it. That's what I hope for myself and my children
anyway. Time will tell.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], mulwiler@h... wrote:
me. Lol. It has taken all 18 mos since then to change and I'm still changing. <bwg>
I'm with you. It's hard work to make the shift. I shift, then I take it back, then I shift some
more.
The biggest help in changing, though, has been working with teens who aren't my kids.
I've been amazed at how many are comfortable lying about who they are to please their
parents. (And these are kids raised with religious convictions...)
Julie B
>A month to get the difference between what I was doing and what this list was showing
>
> Julie B wrote:
> <<<<< It took a month of reconsidering my entire parenting
> philosophy to "get it" and I felt a bit chagrined on several
> occasions. >>>>>
>
>
> Only a month????????
me. Lol. It has taken all 18 mos since then to change and I'm still changing. <bwg>
I'm with you. It's hard work to make the shift. I shift, then I take it back, then I shift some
more.
The biggest help in changing, though, has been working with teens who aren't my kids.
I've been amazed at how many are comfortable lying about who they are to please their
parents. (And these are kids raised with religious convictions...)
Julie B
Elizabeth Hill
** I love the bike riding analogy - and have to say that no matter how
many articles one reads about bicycling or how much time spent watching
people ride bikes, you just can't really "get" bike riding until you
ride a bike. Unschooling is truly the same way.**
Or to go back to a really old analogy, you can't learn to swim sitting
on the side of the pool chatting.
--Betsy (who learns many other types of things from chatting)
Oh!!! Maybe that's the confusion. When I'm reading here and writing
posts here, and chatting, I feel like I'm "learning" a lot about
unschooling because I'm thinking and I'm picking up ideas. So some
learning is clearly happening. But I'm NOT learning about MY son from
being online and batting words around. (He's asleep now, but other
times I'm tuning him out when I'm on the computer.) I'm not "walking
the walk" or "riding the bike" <g> or seeing how my child lives and
learns when I'm here in front of the computer.
It's a lot like the difference between "classroom learning" (no offense)
and "life learning". It's certainly the difference between secondhand
studying and firsthand experience.
--Betsy
many articles one reads about bicycling or how much time spent watching
people ride bikes, you just can't really "get" bike riding until you
ride a bike. Unschooling is truly the same way.**
Or to go back to a really old analogy, you can't learn to swim sitting
on the side of the pool chatting.
--Betsy (who learns many other types of things from chatting)
Oh!!! Maybe that's the confusion. When I'm reading here and writing
posts here, and chatting, I feel like I'm "learning" a lot about
unschooling because I'm thinking and I'm picking up ideas. So some
learning is clearly happening. But I'm NOT learning about MY son from
being online and batting words around. (He's asleep now, but other
times I'm tuning him out when I'm on the computer.) I'm not "walking
the walk" or "riding the bike" <g> or seeing how my child lives and
learns when I'm here in front of the computer.
It's a lot like the difference between "classroom learning" (no offense)
and "life learning". It's certainly the difference between secondhand
studying and firsthand experience.
--Betsy
[email protected]
I think what happens when people who come to this list and jump right in, with out reading and getting a good feel for the "tone" of the group, get offended. They want everyone to be sweetness and light. Then they post and their "tone" tends to be confrontational and snarky and that's what I've noticed tends to set people off more than enything.
Then you have those that come in and read for a while and then ask a question, and the "tone"-intent if you will-is different and it does come across, and they are much more likely to get a better, more open, response.
I would love to believe that every one that come to this group is coming with the intent to be an intelligent adult :), but I don't think that has always been the case, some come spoiling for a fight, and the longer and more you've read you can tell by the end of the first post what's going on.
I think that if you come to unschooling with an open mind and an open heart you are able to get more from these exchanges and you are more likely to embrace every thing that tends to fall into place with unschooling.
If you come with fear and doubt, and everyone that is trying to help has to break through all the doubts and fear with each new concept, it takes longer, and may never happen as fully as if you can let go and let it happen.
I'm not sure if I've strayed waaayyy off topic here, but it is something I've notice, as a long time lurker and seldom poster in this forum, that the intent, tone, meaning what ever you want to call it, does come through and people respond to that and then everything seems to escalate.
~Rebecca
--
You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help."
-Calvin
Then you have those that come in and read for a while and then ask a question, and the "tone"-intent if you will-is different and it does come across, and they are much more likely to get a better, more open, response.
I would love to believe that every one that come to this group is coming with the intent to be an intelligent adult :), but I don't think that has always been the case, some come spoiling for a fight, and the longer and more you've read you can tell by the end of the first post what's going on.
I think that if you come to unschooling with an open mind and an open heart you are able to get more from these exchanges and you are more likely to embrace every thing that tends to fall into place with unschooling.
If you come with fear and doubt, and everyone that is trying to help has to break through all the doubts and fear with each new concept, it takes longer, and may never happen as fully as if you can let go and let it happen.
I'm not sure if I've strayed waaayyy off topic here, but it is something I've notice, as a long time lurker and seldom poster in this forum, that the intent, tone, meaning what ever you want to call it, does come through and people respond to that and then everything seems to escalate.
~Rebecca
--
You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help."
-Calvin
> In a message dated 06/03/2004 1:51:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:
>
>
> >
> > Is it wrong, y'think, to assume that participants here (those who choose to
> > post, I mean) are intelligent adults? It amazes me when someone will say
> > "you
> > don't treat me like you treat your children." Maybe they mean "you don't
> > let me fart around for six years, confident that I'll learn what I need."
> > But
> > I think more often it means "You expected me to be an adult."
> >
> > I think it would be much less respectful to treat people like they were
> > fragile or slow-witted.
> >
>
>
> I really do wonder about this, and have before.
>
> Couldn't it also be asked in an unschooling sense, as in why don't we
> share unschooling with new adults using the same principles we use so
> successfully with our children?
>