Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Meet A Person Where She's At was:Highly Sensitive
[email protected]
I'd be interested in hearing more examination of this as a principle
to help people get to unschooling.
I've heard of music therapy working because it starts with music that
matches the person's current mood, establishing a "link" so that as the music
becomes more happy and positive, the mood is more likely to move along with
it.
And there's the old saying about not letting "the perfect be the enemy
of the good."
OTOH, I guess one disadvantage is that it might make it easier for
some folks to settle where they are and not continue the journey toward abundant
unschooling. The problems multiply if they not only settle there, but set up
shop as unschooling meeter-greeters -- without disclosing that UnschoolingWorld
is really still a couple of hundred miles down the road.
It reminds me of the signs implying you've reached the gates of
DisneyWorld, while you're still a couple of counties north (with children very ready
to be there NOW.) Yes, travelers perhaps have come a long way and they're on
the right road, and that's good -- but it's a problem if you stop in Ocala and
then badmouth DisneyWorld forevermore as nothing but horsefarms and highway!
JJ
game-enthusiast@... writes:
to help people get to unschooling.
I've heard of music therapy working because it starts with music that
matches the person's current mood, establishing a "link" so that as the music
becomes more happy and positive, the mood is more likely to move along with
it.
And there's the old saying about not letting "the perfect be the enemy
of the good."
OTOH, I guess one disadvantage is that it might make it easier for
some folks to settle where they are and not continue the journey toward abundant
unschooling. The problems multiply if they not only settle there, but set up
shop as unschooling meeter-greeters -- without disclosing that UnschoolingWorld
is really still a couple of hundred miles down the road.
It reminds me of the signs implying you've reached the gates of
DisneyWorld, while you're still a couple of counties north (with children very ready
to be there NOW.) Yes, travelers perhaps have come a long way and they're on
the right road, and that's good -- but it's a problem if you stop in Ocala and
then badmouth DisneyWorld forevermore as nothing but horsefarms and highway!
JJ
game-enthusiast@... writes:
> Sometimes you have to meet a person where they are at.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> While talking about the concept of unschooling might be beneficial, maybe
> just talking about each small step as it comes up will be more beneficial
> depending on the circumstances and the forum.
>
> Recently at a homeschool meeting I went to, someone was looking for an
> easier way to teach penmanship than making her kids write for 30 minutes
> every day, which they hated and fought. (they were only 7 and 8) The mom
> was miles away from getting unschooling and maybe didn't even know what it
> was. I gave my opinion.... that I felt it was a left brain/right brain
> thing and some people were just good at it and found it easy and others
> would always have a hard time and have messy writing, so forcing practice
> won't really make a huge difference in the long run. But this is a mom who
> feels that practice makes perfect, so telling her to ..just not worry about
> it.....didn't really reach her. Someone else offered a suggestion of a game
> that involves writing, but much less writing than she otherwise would have
> her children do. The mom embraced the idea of a game and slacking off on
> her standards of writing for 30 minutes a day. The person giving the advice
> leans heavily toward unschooling and I was surprised at her advice. I
> talked with her alone afterwards and she mentioned to me what I said above,
> that sometimes you have to meet a person where they are.
>
> I don't think I did her disservice by talking how an unschooler approaches
> penmanship but perhaps the person offering her something concrete to do,
> gave her advice that she will actually use. Maybe some day she'll put it
> all together and get unschooling but maybe not. Either way, her kids have
> it a little easier now getting to play a game, instead of having the do copy
> work for 30 minutes a day.
>
[email protected]
<< > While talking about the concept of unschooling might be beneficial, maybe
person/people to "master the information" and then (and only then, after
they've shown somehow like passing a test or spitting the information back or
being observed in person) going on to step two.
I'm doing NOTHING like that unless I get paid enough to salve my soul for
having compromised my principles. But in the case of unschooling, it's ironic
and amusing enough when I stand up and deliver a presentation to people who are
sitting in rows taking notes.
Lots of times, especially at unschooling.com, people will give interim ideas,
of how to move from one place to another. But I think jross is right that
unless you're clear that that will help them relax, and don't say "and then
you'll be unschooling," you confuse an issue (if the issue is part of your goal).
Meeting a person in passing, I can give what might here seem like wimpy
information. If they say "It's so hard to finish the work during the day" I can
EASILY say "What's wrong with nighttime and weekends? Spread it out." and
sometimes I throw in "My kids have learned the same things with NO 'work
finishing.'"
But when someone comes to a place like this, with a description like this
group has, they've already stepped to the far side of the continuum and invited
people to help them see it more clearly.
Sandra
> just talking about each small step as it comes up will be more beneficialThat would be a curriculum, if we laid it out as step one, and waited for the
> depending on the circumstances and the forum. >>
person/people to "master the information" and then (and only then, after
they've shown somehow like passing a test or spitting the information back or
being observed in person) going on to step two.
I'm doing NOTHING like that unless I get paid enough to salve my soul for
having compromised my principles. But in the case of unschooling, it's ironic
and amusing enough when I stand up and deliver a presentation to people who are
sitting in rows taking notes.
Lots of times, especially at unschooling.com, people will give interim ideas,
of how to move from one place to another. But I think jross is right that
unless you're clear that that will help them relax, and don't say "and then
you'll be unschooling," you confuse an issue (if the issue is part of your goal).
Meeting a person in passing, I can give what might here seem like wimpy
information. If they say "It's so hard to finish the work during the day" I can
EASILY say "What's wrong with nighttime and weekends? Spread it out." and
sometimes I throw in "My kids have learned the same things with NO 'work
finishing.'"
But when someone comes to a place like this, with a description like this
group has, they've already stepped to the far side of the continuum and invited
people to help them see it more clearly.
Sandra
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
unschooling, then when offering help, I hope to be someone who helps to link moms to
kids in a more respectful manner.
Reminds me of LLL. If someone comes to a meeting, I felt fine explaingin demand nursing.
If a friend from church is exasperated with her child who "won't follow a schedule," I try to
help her see the neediness of the child from the child's point of view and offer both my
experience of demand feeding and some tips for how to meet her child's point of need
(the one she shared with me).
That may or may not have led to demand feeding, but it might plant a seed of respect for
the child that has a chance to grow.
Julie B
>If someone is asking for unschooling advice, I agree. If someone isn't asking about
> Lots of times, especially at unschooling.com, people will give interim ideas,
> of how to move from one place to another. But I think jross is right that
> unless you're clear that that will help them relax, and don't say "and then
> you'll be unschooling," you confuse an issue (if the issue is part of your goal).
unschooling, then when offering help, I hope to be someone who helps to link moms to
kids in a more respectful manner.
Reminds me of LLL. If someone comes to a meeting, I felt fine explaingin demand nursing.
If a friend from church is exasperated with her child who "won't follow a schedule," I try to
help her see the neediness of the child from the child's point of view and offer both my
experience of demand feeding and some tips for how to meet her child's point of need
(the one she shared with me).
That may or may not have led to demand feeding, but it might plant a seed of respect for
the child that has a chance to grow.
>That's just how I see it too.
> Meeting a person in passing, I can give what might here seem like wimpy
> information. If they say "It's so hard to finish the work during the day" I can
> EASILY say "What's wrong with nighttime and weekends? Spread it out." and
> sometimes I throw in "My kids have learned the same things with NO 'work
> finishing.'"
>Makes total sense.
> But when someone comes to a place like this, with a description like this
> group has, they've already stepped to the far side of the continuum and invited
> people to help them see it more clearly.
Julie B
Elizabeth Hill
** And there's the old saying about not letting "the perfect be
the enemy
of the good."
OTOH, I guess one disadvantage is that it might make it easier for
some folks to settle where they are and not continue the journey toward
abundant
unschooling.**
What springs to mind for me is something sequential, like a 12 step
program or 7 principles. I realize that unschooling isn't exactly
linear, but there are maybe "elementary" unschooling practices and then
further advanced stuff. I mean that I think finding ways not to yell,
or to be kinder in speech probably comes before having really loose
bedtimes. (Because a screaming mom seems likely to collide with a
staying up late kid, especially when there are bumps in the transition
that cut into how much sleep she gets.)
Deschooling comes before most things.
We could discuss how we all came to unschooling, which changes we made
first and which later, if it was a slow process. It would be
interesting to see how much variation there is.
Betsy
the enemy
of the good."
OTOH, I guess one disadvantage is that it might make it easier for
some folks to settle where they are and not continue the journey toward
abundant
unschooling.**
What springs to mind for me is something sequential, like a 12 step
program or 7 principles. I realize that unschooling isn't exactly
linear, but there are maybe "elementary" unschooling practices and then
further advanced stuff. I mean that I think finding ways not to yell,
or to be kinder in speech probably comes before having really loose
bedtimes. (Because a screaming mom seems likely to collide with a
staying up late kid, especially when there are bumps in the transition
that cut into how much sleep she gets.)
Deschooling comes before most things.
We could discuss how we all came to unschooling, which changes we made
first and which later, if it was a slow process. It would be
interesting to see how much variation there is.
Betsy
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
kidding, but I know that at first unschooling sounded like sitting
back and not doing anything. Then I started seeing all the things
that parents do--like strewing (and getting things to strew),
following a child's interests, etc. But at first it did sound passive
and I think that's really hard for some people to accept at first--or
ever.
Like with food. Not controling doesn't mean never having influence.
You talk about how our bodies work, how they need different foods,
how some foods give us more energy than others, you involve the child
in buying and preparing food...and so on.
It might help some people to see the active side more, or sooner.
--aj
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
> What springs to mind for me is something sequential, like a 12 stepthen
> program or 7 principles. I realize that unschooling isn't exactly
> linear, but there are maybe "elementary" unschooling practices and
> further advanced stuff.How about a chart: replace behavior X with behavior Y? I'm sort of
kidding, but I know that at first unschooling sounded like sitting
back and not doing anything. Then I started seeing all the things
that parents do--like strewing (and getting things to strew),
following a child's interests, etc. But at first it did sound passive
and I think that's really hard for some people to accept at first--or
ever.
Like with food. Not controling doesn't mean never having influence.
You talk about how our bodies work, how they need different foods,
how some foods give us more energy than others, you involve the child
in buying and preparing food...and so on.
It might help some people to see the active side more, or sooner.
--aj
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/04 10:45:44 AM, julie@... writes:
<< If someone is asking for unschooling advice, I agree. If someone isn't
asking about
unschooling, then when offering help, I hope to be someone who helps to link
moms to
kids in a more respectful manner. >>
More respectful than they were being before?
Or more respectful than unschooling advice might seem out of the blue?
-=-That may or may not have led to demand feeding, but it might plant a seed
of respect for the child that has a chance to grow.-=-
Ah. More respectful of the child.
That's sometimes the biggest jump. Sometimes someone can unschool a while
before moving toward having more real respect for and faith in the child.
Sandra
<< If someone is asking for unschooling advice, I agree. If someone isn't
asking about
unschooling, then when offering help, I hope to be someone who helps to link
moms to
kids in a more respectful manner. >>
More respectful than they were being before?
Or more respectful than unschooling advice might seem out of the blue?
-=-That may or may not have led to demand feeding, but it might plant a seed
of respect for the child that has a chance to grow.-=-
Ah. More respectful of the child.
That's sometimes the biggest jump. Sometimes someone can unschool a while
before moving toward having more real respect for and faith in the child.
Sandra
christy_imnotred
-=-Ah. More respectful of the child.
That's sometimes the biggest jump. Sometimes someone can unschool a
while before moving toward having more real respect for and faith in
the child.
Sandra-=-
I think being more respectful of the child is a huge jump because
most parents think what they are doing is respectful. I got in a
huge "discussion" on a pre-unschooling list about not controlling tv
and food. I said I didn't control these things because I respected
my son as a whole person who knew what he wanted and needed. Many of
the other posters got really upset about this and said that they
respected their kids too and that that was why they controlled what
they ate and watched. I said that wasn't respect, that was distrust
and control.
So maybe different people have different definitions of what respect
is? To me telling a person what to do with no regard to what that
person wants isn't respect. But many people in that discussion
thought what I was doing wasn't respectful because I was letting my
son eat candy if he wanted it and therefore letting him poison his
body.
I ended up unsubbing from the group after being called many names. I
did explain many times that my son is not living in a vacuum with his
choices, that I had a lot of input, but they just couldn't seem to
believe it. They thought I was negligent. So is there a way to get
people to see that controlling isn't respectful? Can controlling
someone be respectful?
Just some thoughts on this topic.
Christy O
That's sometimes the biggest jump. Sometimes someone can unschool a
while before moving toward having more real respect for and faith in
the child.
Sandra-=-
I think being more respectful of the child is a huge jump because
most parents think what they are doing is respectful. I got in a
huge "discussion" on a pre-unschooling list about not controlling tv
and food. I said I didn't control these things because I respected
my son as a whole person who knew what he wanted and needed. Many of
the other posters got really upset about this and said that they
respected their kids too and that that was why they controlled what
they ate and watched. I said that wasn't respect, that was distrust
and control.
So maybe different people have different definitions of what respect
is? To me telling a person what to do with no regard to what that
person wants isn't respect. But many people in that discussion
thought what I was doing wasn't respectful because I was letting my
son eat candy if he wanted it and therefore letting him poison his
body.
I ended up unsubbing from the group after being called many names. I
did explain many times that my son is not living in a vacuum with his
choices, that I had a lot of input, but they just couldn't seem to
believe it. They thought I was negligent. So is there a way to get
people to see that controlling isn't respectful? Can controlling
someone be respectful?
Just some thoughts on this topic.
Christy O
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/04 11:40:19 AM, mamaaj2000@... writes:
<< It might help some people to see the active side more, or sooner. >>
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Send them this, and if you write something similar or better I'd be glad to
link it!
If people want to throw out some "how to start" ideas I'd be glad to make
them all available for newer people coming along. And I could put a disclaimer
at the bottom of each page, with links to more "high level" ideas.
Some people get it right away, and some have a harder time.
Sandra
<< It might help some people to see the active side more, or sooner. >>
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Send them this, and if you write something similar or better I'd be glad to
link it!
If people want to throw out some "how to start" ideas I'd be glad to make
them all available for newer people coming along. And I could put a disclaimer
at the bottom of each page, with links to more "high level" ideas.
Some people get it right away, and some have a harder time.
Sandra
Elizabeth Hill
** How about a chart: replace behavior X with behavior Y? I'm sort of
kidding, but I know that at first unschooling sounded like sitting
back and not doing anything.**
Yeah, I can sort of see columns with "more of this" and "less of that".
**Then I started seeing all the things
that parents do--like strewing (and getting things to strew),
following a child's interests, etc. But at first it did sound passive
and I think that's really hard for some people to accept at first--or
ever.**
I think I don't do enough strewing. (I think that's part of why it's
been so "blah" around here.) In the past year we were in financial
straits, so I was vigilantly and ridiculously frugal. So I'm trying to
relax and fix that.
And I still think schoolishly and remedially sometimes. I was reading a
kids' magazine with ads for other mags like Calliope and others. I
looked at the American History magazine and thought "Nah, James already
knows a lot about American History." And then I was attracted to the
kids magazine about World History, but wondered if it would be a waste
of money because "he might never get interested in World History". Then
I kind of smacked myself in the forehead because I had leaned towards
the magazine that would fill in his "deficiency" (World History) and
ignored the one that fit better with his actual interest, American
History. (He loved Liberty's Kids and likes to hear narratives about
WWII, esp. the battle of Midway.)
Betsy
PS If I ever get to an unschooling conference with my husband, I'm
going to persuade him to re-enact the battle of Midway in the hotel
swimming pool with Cuisenaire rods. (or some floating facsimile). You
don't want to miss that!
kidding, but I know that at first unschooling sounded like sitting
back and not doing anything.**
Yeah, I can sort of see columns with "more of this" and "less of that".
**Then I started seeing all the things
that parents do--like strewing (and getting things to strew),
following a child's interests, etc. But at first it did sound passive
and I think that's really hard for some people to accept at first--or
ever.**
I think I don't do enough strewing. (I think that's part of why it's
been so "blah" around here.) In the past year we were in financial
straits, so I was vigilantly and ridiculously frugal. So I'm trying to
relax and fix that.
And I still think schoolishly and remedially sometimes. I was reading a
kids' magazine with ads for other mags like Calliope and others. I
looked at the American History magazine and thought "Nah, James already
knows a lot about American History." And then I was attracted to the
kids magazine about World History, but wondered if it would be a waste
of money because "he might never get interested in World History". Then
I kind of smacked myself in the forehead because I had leaned towards
the magazine that would fill in his "deficiency" (World History) and
ignored the one that fit better with his actual interest, American
History. (He loved Liberty's Kids and likes to hear narratives about
WWII, esp. the battle of Midway.)
Betsy
PS If I ever get to an unschooling conference with my husband, I'm
going to persuade him to re-enact the battle of Midway in the hotel
swimming pool with Cuisenaire rods. (or some floating facsimile). You
don't want to miss that!
Betsy and Chris
Yeah, but you missed the a-ha moment posted shortly after! You got people thinking--and in one case changed someone's behavior re. their kid and a food choice. So there ya go!
Betsy
Betsy
----- Original Message -----
From: christy_imnotred
To: [email protected]
I ended up unsubbing from the group after being called many names. I
did explain many times that my son is not living in a vacuum with his
choices, that I had a lot of input, but they just couldn't seem to
believe it. They thought I was negligent. So is there a way to get
people to see that controlling isn't respectful? Can controlling
someone be respectful?
Just some thoughts on this topic.
Christy O
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/04 12:09:24 PM, christy_imnotred@... writes:
<< Many of
the other posters got really upset about this and said that they
respected their kids too and that that was why they controlled what
they ate and watched. I said that wasn't respect, that was distrust
and control.
<<So maybe different people have different definitions of what respect
is? >>
Well consider the not-so-long-ago "respect for women" that kept girls in the
house or with an adult female chaperone at all times, kept wives home unless
they were out with a husband. (Wait...that's still going on in a lot of
families now, and a lot of those are homeschooling families. :-/ )
And in other cultures respect for women is keeping them draped and veiled and
not speaking to any men outside their own families. Respect for women keeps
them from working and having jobs.
Honestly, the justifications for those things are that women are special, and
fragile, and should be protected.
Sandra
<< Many of
the other posters got really upset about this and said that they
respected their kids too and that that was why they controlled what
they ate and watched. I said that wasn't respect, that was distrust
and control.
<<So maybe different people have different definitions of what respect
is? >>
Well consider the not-so-long-ago "respect for women" that kept girls in the
house or with an adult female chaperone at all times, kept wives home unless
they were out with a husband. (Wait...that's still going on in a lot of
families now, and a lot of those are homeschooling families. :-/ )
And in other cultures respect for women is keeping them draped and veiled and
not speaking to any men outside their own families. Respect for women keeps
them from working and having jobs.
Honestly, the justifications for those things are that women are special, and
fragile, and should be protected.
Sandra
christy_imnotred
--- In [email protected], "Betsy and Chris"
<canderson51@c...> wrote:
kid and a food choice. So there ya go!
that I couldn't see that anyone was learning anything anymore. And I
was afraid I was about to get really rude, so I felt it best to
leave. I'm glad some good came of it. Thanks for telling me!
Christy O
<canderson51@c...> wrote:
> Yeah, but you missed the a-ha moment posted shortly after! You gotpeople thinking--and in one case changed someone's behavior re. their
kid and a food choice. So there ya go!
>Really? Wow, that's great! I'd spent so much time being insulted
> Betsy
that I couldn't see that anyone was learning anything anymore. And I
was afraid I was about to get really rude, so I felt it best to
leave. I'm glad some good came of it. Thanks for telling me!
Christy O