Re: Highly Sensitive people
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], "kayb85" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
sounds like pursuing personal interests means doing *additional* things
for yourself, apart from your kids. I've found that if I simply include
my interests in our lives together, then we all participate in each
other's interests. For instance, I will happily play Yu-Gi-Oh cards
with my son, watch That's So Raven for the millionth time with my
daughter, listen to my other son play his saxophone, discuss my
daughter's latest book she's reading and read my oldest son's email
about song lyric meanings. But I also like to watch Sister Wendy videos
about art history. So I might pop those in after That's So Raven. I
enjoy poetry and tea so we make tea and muffins and read poetry.
Interested kids do it with me. And now they love it!
I love Shakespeare so we usher at the local Shakespeare festival in
town. My older kids come along and now they enjoy Shakespeare as much
as my husband and I do.
I continue to listen to U2 and read email about the band every day.
I post on my favorite e-lists and forums.
Right now I'm teaching myself Greek. I just get my books out and do a
little bit while I sit at the table in the same room as the other kids.
My 7 yr old daughter got interested and has her own "Greek notebook"
that she writes the alphabet in. We enjoyed bird watching this year
because I love bird watching. I participated in the Project Feeder
Watch. My kids knew that and helped me out - just like I help them out
in their interests.
When my kids were little, I used to take some time away. My husband
would watch the kids three hours a week and I'd go to the library. I
remember that at first, I literally just sat in a private room doing
nothing. I would journal a bit or read a magazine, but I mostly just
enjoyed quiet. Over time, I started working on getting published and
spent some of that time writing, studying or finding markets for my
work.
Later, I dropped the library visits and took guitar lessons once a
week. I would practice guitar during the day when my kids were playing
in the living room or outside.
I guess I am taking this further because it is important to me that our
kids see that a lifestyle of learning continues throughout adulthood.
Unschooling isn't just about knowing our kids well and facilitating
their interests until they move out. It's a lifestyle for all ages.
Certainly the time to devote to multiple interests will vary according
to the ages and stages of our kids. I just wanted to put in a plug:
don't assume that pursuing your personal interests means time away from
children or that it means competing with your children's interests.
And I'd ask any mother: what does interest you? If you've forgotten, it
might be time to simply think a bit about it again.
Julie
wrote:
> This is probably a big reason why I was so conflicted when I heardPerhaps this idea is also miscommunicated. There's a sense in which it
> unschoolers say, "Make sure you do things that interest you too" and
> I think, "But there's no TIME!" This was a huge issue for me,
> because it felt like incredible pressure. Take care of all these
> kids' needs AND make sure you do something intersting yourself too.
sounds like pursuing personal interests means doing *additional* things
for yourself, apart from your kids. I've found that if I simply include
my interests in our lives together, then we all participate in each
other's interests. For instance, I will happily play Yu-Gi-Oh cards
with my son, watch That's So Raven for the millionth time with my
daughter, listen to my other son play his saxophone, discuss my
daughter's latest book she's reading and read my oldest son's email
about song lyric meanings. But I also like to watch Sister Wendy videos
about art history. So I might pop those in after That's So Raven. I
enjoy poetry and tea so we make tea and muffins and read poetry.
Interested kids do it with me. And now they love it!
I love Shakespeare so we usher at the local Shakespeare festival in
town. My older kids come along and now they enjoy Shakespeare as much
as my husband and I do.
I continue to listen to U2 and read email about the band every day.
I post on my favorite e-lists and forums.
Right now I'm teaching myself Greek. I just get my books out and do a
little bit while I sit at the table in the same room as the other kids.
My 7 yr old daughter got interested and has her own "Greek notebook"
that she writes the alphabet in. We enjoyed bird watching this year
because I love bird watching. I participated in the Project Feeder
Watch. My kids knew that and helped me out - just like I help them out
in their interests.
When my kids were little, I used to take some time away. My husband
would watch the kids three hours a week and I'd go to the library. I
remember that at first, I literally just sat in a private room doing
nothing. I would journal a bit or read a magazine, but I mostly just
enjoyed quiet. Over time, I started working on getting published and
spent some of that time writing, studying or finding markets for my
work.
Later, I dropped the library visits and took guitar lessons once a
week. I would practice guitar during the day when my kids were playing
in the living room or outside.
I guess I am taking this further because it is important to me that our
kids see that a lifestyle of learning continues throughout adulthood.
Unschooling isn't just about knowing our kids well and facilitating
their interests until they move out. It's a lifestyle for all ages.
Certainly the time to devote to multiple interests will vary according
to the ages and stages of our kids. I just wanted to put in a plug:
don't assume that pursuing your personal interests means time away from
children or that it means competing with your children's interests.
And I'd ask any mother: what does interest you? If you've forgotten, it
might be time to simply think a bit about it again.
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/31/2004 7:13:23 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:
I guess I am taking this further because it is important to me that our
kids see that a lifestyle of learning continues throughout adulthood.
Unschooling isn't just about knowing our kids well and facilitating
their interests until they move out. It's a lifestyle for all ages.
Certainly the time to devote to multiple interests will vary according
to the ages and stages of our kids. I just wanted to put in a plug:
don't assume that pursuing your personal interests means time away from
children or that it means competing with your children's interests.
----------------------------------------------
YAY!!
Beautifully written.
I had the house mostly to myself for four and a half days. Mostly to myself.
Kirby kept coming home to go to work or once, unexpectedly, to go to a
movie. (They were camping with a large group about 30 miles away.) I LOVED the
quiet. Given the freedom to put on any music Iiked as loud as I wanted, I
spent a lot of time just being amazed at the little noises I heard.
I painted the back doors (French doors and a weirdo big frame) and did a
litle housecleaning, and messed with the yard. Watched some DVDs and played
games. Went walking with the dog and a tennis ball.
Big chance to pursue my interests, and I was largely interested in just
goofin' off.
IT WAS WONDERFUL.
And now I'm working through what will be fifteen loads of laundry (cloaks one
per load; lots of table cloths and dishtowels and cloth napkins and costumes
for five days for four people...) and dishes and cooking stuff and dusty,
dusty stuff. But that's sweet, beause I didn't have to live in the dust a bit,
and they all still had fun.
I'm not even an introvert at all. Even an extrovert can get to the point
where four days of nobody else seems pretty cool!
I didn't know until Keith got home noonish and sent Holly to ask me to move
the van that I had never had the keys to the van. All that time, I thought I
had a vehicle and it was a comfort but I never drove anywhere.
Holly's sitting next to me playing Harvest Moon. All the kids have told me
stories of who and what and how and Keith told me lots of stories. So since
they've been back I've had input, input, input!
The years of always having a baby on your hip and looking for the other shoe
DO pass.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
I guess I am taking this further because it is important to me that our
kids see that a lifestyle of learning continues throughout adulthood.
Unschooling isn't just about knowing our kids well and facilitating
their interests until they move out. It's a lifestyle for all ages.
Certainly the time to devote to multiple interests will vary according
to the ages and stages of our kids. I just wanted to put in a plug:
don't assume that pursuing your personal interests means time away from
children or that it means competing with your children's interests.
----------------------------------------------
YAY!!
Beautifully written.
I had the house mostly to myself for four and a half days. Mostly to myself.
Kirby kept coming home to go to work or once, unexpectedly, to go to a
movie. (They were camping with a large group about 30 miles away.) I LOVED the
quiet. Given the freedom to put on any music Iiked as loud as I wanted, I
spent a lot of time just being amazed at the little noises I heard.
I painted the back doors (French doors and a weirdo big frame) and did a
litle housecleaning, and messed with the yard. Watched some DVDs and played
games. Went walking with the dog and a tennis ball.
Big chance to pursue my interests, and I was largely interested in just
goofin' off.
IT WAS WONDERFUL.
And now I'm working through what will be fifteen loads of laundry (cloaks one
per load; lots of table cloths and dishtowels and cloth napkins and costumes
for five days for four people...) and dishes and cooking stuff and dusty,
dusty stuff. But that's sweet, beause I didn't have to live in the dust a bit,
and they all still had fun.
I'm not even an introvert at all. Even an extrovert can get to the point
where four days of nobody else seems pretty cool!
I didn't know until Keith got home noonish and sent Holly to ask me to move
the van that I had never had the keys to the van. All that time, I thought I
had a vehicle and it was a comfort but I never drove anywhere.
Holly's sitting next to me playing Harvest Moon. All the kids have told me
stories of who and what and how and Keith told me lots of stories. So since
they've been back I've had input, input, input!
The years of always having a baby on your hip and looking for the other shoe
DO pass.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer
> The years of always having a baby on your hip and looking for theother shoe
> DO pass.When I read this last line, I couldn't decide if my eyes were
>
> Sandra
filling with tears for what I love so much about my life now and how
much my heart aches to think these days are blurring past me, or
that one day, down the line, I might actually have four days to
myself and think it's cool.
Jennifer
Robin Clevenger
--- In [email protected], Julie Bogart <julie@b...> wrote:
On the other side, although when I write, I have to be alone, I edit all of my writing when I'm around the kids. Mackenzie sat with me as I read my entire 1st novel aloud and edited it. It was fun to have him with me, and we talked a lot about the plot and characters. Italso had an interesting side-benefit for him. It let him see that writing is a fluid process - not something you do once and forget about. I remember how astounded he was at how many mistakes I was correcting in my own text and how many parts I decided to rewrite or use a different phrase. And he was more amazed when I was on the 10th revision and still finding stuff. I think it really helped him to start writing more himself (he tends to be a bit of a perfectionist and gets frustrated if things aren't just the way he imagined them.) After this, he realized that he could always change it after the fact, that it didn't have to be just right the first time. Also, seeing me go to my adult writer's group gave him the idea to start a kid's writer's group, which has now been going for 2 years.
Most of the kids' and my interests, we do together. Some of my interests I do while the kids are occupied elsewhere. All of our interests are beneficial to ourselves and to each other, I think. We learn so much from each other and from supporting each other in what we love to do. I never could've predicted the amazing stuff we've gotten into together, and how much I would enjoy learning from my kids. Unschooling isn't just for them, it's for all of us!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I guess I am taking this further because it is important to me that ourJulie, this is so well said. I've found that my kids' interests spur my own and vice versa, back and forth between us. My daughter Asa wanted to take violin lessons, and in Suzuki violin, the parent usually learns too. So I found myself renting a violin and playing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star right alongside her. But I started noticing violin music and what kinds I liked and what kinds I didn't. We found the little violin harmonies in Dixie Chicks songs, and I heard a snip of Vanessa Mae's classical-with-a-dance-beat and bought the CD. I found myself drawn to fiddling and she and I went to some amazing fiddle concerts and now I'm discovering that I love playing Celtic Fiddle music. It's something that we do together every day - we play duets and we play separately and we both share this love of this instrument. I would've laughed if someone told me a few years back that I'd be playing the violin - I always considered it such a fussy instrument.
>kids see that a lifestyle of learning continues throughout adulthood.
>Unschooling isn't just about knowing our kids well and facilitating
>their interests until they move out. It's a lifestyle for all ages.
>Certainly the time to devote to multiple interests will vary according
>to the ages and stages of our kids. I just wanted to put in a plug:
>don't assume that pursuing your personal interests means time away from
>children or that it means competing with your children's interests.
>
>And I'd ask any mother: what does interest you? If you've forgotten, it
>might be time to simply think a bit about it again.
On the other side, although when I write, I have to be alone, I edit all of my writing when I'm around the kids. Mackenzie sat with me as I read my entire 1st novel aloud and edited it. It was fun to have him with me, and we talked a lot about the plot and characters. Italso had an interesting side-benefit for him. It let him see that writing is a fluid process - not something you do once and forget about. I remember how astounded he was at how many mistakes I was correcting in my own text and how many parts I decided to rewrite or use a different phrase. And he was more amazed when I was on the 10th revision and still finding stuff. I think it really helped him to start writing more himself (he tends to be a bit of a perfectionist and gets frustrated if things aren't just the way he imagined them.) After this, he realized that he could always change it after the fact, that it didn't have to be just right the first time. Also, seeing me go to my adult writer's group gave him the idea to start a kid's writer's group, which has now been going for 2 years.
Most of the kids' and my interests, we do together. Some of my interests I do while the kids are occupied elsewhere. All of our interests are beneficial to ourselves and to each other, I think. We learn so much from each other and from supporting each other in what we love to do. I never could've predicted the amazing stuff we've gotten into together, and how much I would enjoy learning from my kids. Unschooling isn't just for them, it's for all of us!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
--- In [email protected], "Jennifer"
<jmcseals@m...> wrote:
Sheila
<jmcseals@m...> wrote:
> > The years of always having a baby on your hip and looking for thehow
> other shoe
> > DO pass.
> >
> > Sandra
>
>
> When I read this last line, I couldn't decide if my eyes were
> filling with tears for what I love so much about my life now and
> much my heart aches to think these days are blurring past me, orYeah, me too. :) It's a good thing to be reminded of!
> that one day, down the line, I might actually have four days to
> myself and think it's cool.
>
> Jennifer
Sheila
kayb85
> I guess I am taking this further because it is important to me thatour
> kids see that a lifestyle of learning continues throughoutadulthood.
> Unschooling isn't just about knowing our kids well and facilitatingaccording
> their interests until they move out. It's a lifestyle for all ages.
> Certainly the time to devote to multiple interests will vary
> to the ages and stages of our kids. I just wanted to put in a plug:from
> don't assume that pursuing your personal interests means time away
> children or that it means competing with your children's interests.forgotten, it
>
> And I'd ask any mother: what does interest you? If you've
> might be time to simply think a bit about it again.Wow, this has given me a lot to think about! Thanks for writing this
>
> Julie
out. Now I'm thinking I should be making more of an effort at
pursuing my own interests. Yet I still feel that pursuing my own
interests WILL be competing with my children's interests to some
point. From past experience, I know that they do. Me pursuing my
own interests almost always results in me telling the kids "No" at
some point.
It's only 9:30 am and I already have a huge list of what the kids
want to do with me today. The list will get longer as we go further
on in the day (it always does! lol).
Alisha has asked me if I would play a board game with her and re-do
her mighty beanz house (The mighty beanz aren't making it through the
tubes the way they should.)
Matt wants me to play a board game he made up and he wants me to play
a Spider man board game.
Luke wants me to play a game of Somebody and I told him the other day
that I'd look for a book we have about electricity and read it to him
and I still haven't done that yet.
I have some housework to do because we're having company tomorrow.
Just the housework itself competes with the kids. Guaranteed they'll
want me to do other things than the things that already have on their
mental list of things to do today, and they'll tell me they wish I
didn't have to clean up. (And I'm NOT a neat freak by any stretch of
the imagination!)
I need to pause a minute to breathe or I'll get really overwhelmed
thinking about adding one of my own interests to this day. :)
Because it seems like anytime I start wanting to do stuff for myself
the kids say, "But what about this, this and this that you said you'd
do with us?" So I put down what I wanted to do and go do this, this,
and this with them. I tell myself that when they're done needing me
to play or prepare food or clean up that THEN I'll get my interest
in. But when I try doing that they need me until the time they go to
bed. Then I stay up late to try to squeeze in what I wanted to do
and the next day I'm tired and have to force myself not to be
grumpy.
I don't get when people say, "I do my thing and when they need me, I
stop and help them and then go back to my own thing". Because when I
stop to help them they have me helping them all day long. That's not
an exaggeration. I thought I had this resolved in my own head, that
that's just the way things are, that I need to accept it and
appreciate that they want to be with me so much, that they won't be
little forever so appreciate while it lasts. Now you have me
doubting that again. :)
When I first read your post yesterday, it really struck a chord with
me. I can see the truth in what you wrote. So yesterday I got out
some books that I thought would make some good altered books. I had
read about people doing this and it interested me a lot. Of course I
did most of it while staying up really late after the kids went to
bed <grin> but at least I did it. :) (I'm TIRED now! lol I only
got 4 hours of sleep and I need much more than that.)
I hear the kids out in the livingroom beginning to fight. Alisha
just asked me how much longer I'm going to be on the computer. Deep
breath...Gotta go try to find some kind of balance to this day!
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/2/04 8:12:59 AM, sheran@... writes:
<< I have some housework to do because we're having company tomorrow.
Just the housework itself competes with the kids. Guaranteed they'll
want me to do other things than the things that already have on their
mental list of things to do today, and they'll tell me they wish I
didn't have to clean up. >>
Ask them to help you? Do it in spurts with board games interspersed?
-=-Because it seems like anytime I start wanting to do stuff for myself
the kids say, "But what about this, this and this that you said you'd
do with us?"-=-
Why can't they play board games with each other? Your accounts of how much
your kids demand your time sound exhausting, and I don't know without seeing
and knowing the situation at your house how you've gotten to so scheduled a life
instead of a more free--flowing one. Did you ask them yesterday to say what
they wanted to do today and they've claimed dibs on "play this boardgame" so
that you have individual boardgames to play with different individuals? It
seems over-scheduled and under-group-shared (just from impressions from reading
it).
-=-Then I stay up late to try to squeeze in what I wanted to do
and the next day I'm tired and have to force myself not to be
grumpy. -=-
Somehow your version of "saying no" isn't like other people's I think, but I
don't know what it is.
-=-Because when I
stop to help them they have me helping them all day long. That's not
an exaggeration. I thought I had this resolved in my own head, that
that's just the way things are, that I need to accept it and
appreciate that theyBecause when I
stop to help them they have me helping them all day long. That's not
an exaggeration. I thought I had this resolved in my own head, that
that's just the way things are, that I need to accept it and
appreciate that they want to be with me so much, that they won't be
little forever so appreciate while it lasts. want to be with me so much,
that they won't be
little forever so appreciate while it lasts. -=-
If you're borrowing time from the next day to "force yourself" not to be
grouchy, that's not calm or balance. Maybe you need to schedule some days of
"nothing," some days of stillness and quiet.
-=-I hear the kids out in the livingroom beginning to fight. Alisha
just asked me how much longer I'm going to be on the computer.-=-
Can you casually, naturally separate them? Give one an errand, another one a
puzzle (not jigsaw, some physical one-piece or paper-puzzle) and get them
engrossed in different things that don't involve you or each other sometimes?
Sandra
<< I have some housework to do because we're having company tomorrow.
Just the housework itself competes with the kids. Guaranteed they'll
want me to do other things than the things that already have on their
mental list of things to do today, and they'll tell me they wish I
didn't have to clean up. >>
Ask them to help you? Do it in spurts with board games interspersed?
-=-Because it seems like anytime I start wanting to do stuff for myself
the kids say, "But what about this, this and this that you said you'd
do with us?"-=-
Why can't they play board games with each other? Your accounts of how much
your kids demand your time sound exhausting, and I don't know without seeing
and knowing the situation at your house how you've gotten to so scheduled a life
instead of a more free--flowing one. Did you ask them yesterday to say what
they wanted to do today and they've claimed dibs on "play this boardgame" so
that you have individual boardgames to play with different individuals? It
seems over-scheduled and under-group-shared (just from impressions from reading
it).
-=-Then I stay up late to try to squeeze in what I wanted to do
and the next day I'm tired and have to force myself not to be
grumpy. -=-
Somehow your version of "saying no" isn't like other people's I think, but I
don't know what it is.
-=-Because when I
stop to help them they have me helping them all day long. That's not
an exaggeration. I thought I had this resolved in my own head, that
that's just the way things are, that I need to accept it and
appreciate that theyBecause when I
stop to help them they have me helping them all day long. That's not
an exaggeration. I thought I had this resolved in my own head, that
that's just the way things are, that I need to accept it and
appreciate that they want to be with me so much, that they won't be
little forever so appreciate while it lasts. want to be with me so much,
that they won't be
little forever so appreciate while it lasts. -=-
If you're borrowing time from the next day to "force yourself" not to be
grouchy, that's not calm or balance. Maybe you need to schedule some days of
"nothing," some days of stillness and quiet.
-=-I hear the kids out in the livingroom beginning to fight. Alisha
just asked me how much longer I'm going to be on the computer.-=-
Can you casually, naturally separate them? Give one an errand, another one a
puzzle (not jigsaw, some physical one-piece or paper-puzzle) and get them
engrossed in different things that don't involve you or each other sometimes?
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Jun 2, 2004, at 7:09 AM, kayb85 wrote:
I'm a little concerned that you've taken this "not saying 'no'" to a
ridiculous extreme. You shouldn't be feeling like a martyr - you should
be taking care of yourself - your kids need you to be well-rested and
they need to see you as a real person, too, not only as someone who
instantly satisfies their every little whim.
I say yes if it is possible. I don't say "no" automatically or
arbitrarily. I try to make things work. But that doesn't mean I have to
be SO self-sacrificing that there is no room in my life for taking care
of myself or meeting any of my own needs. I don't have to automatically
always be last in line for my own time or attention. I'm thinking you
need to find a little more balance.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Me pursuing mySheila,
> own interests almost always results in me telling the kids "No" at
> some point.
I'm a little concerned that you've taken this "not saying 'no'" to a
ridiculous extreme. You shouldn't be feeling like a martyr - you should
be taking care of yourself - your kids need you to be well-rested and
they need to see you as a real person, too, not only as someone who
instantly satisfies their every little whim.
I say yes if it is possible. I don't say "no" automatically or
arbitrarily. I try to make things work. But that doesn't mean I have to
be SO self-sacrificing that there is no room in my life for taking care
of myself or meeting any of my own needs. I don't have to automatically
always be last in line for my own time or attention. I'm thinking you
need to find a little more balance.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
pam sorooshian
On Jun 2, 2004, at 7:09 AM, kayb85 wrote:
all together work out your schedules for the day so that it is as good
for everybody as possible. But you count too.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> It's only 9:30 am and I already have a huge list of what the kidsYou can say, "Here is what I have time to do with you today." You can
> want to do with me today. The list will get longer as we go further
> on in the day (it always does! lol).
all together work out your schedules for the day so that it is as good
for everybody as possible. But you count too.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
kayb85
> Ask them to help you? Do it in spurts with board gamesinterspersed?
I had asked Alisha and Matt to clean up the livingroom a little while
I played Luke's game with him, but they decided to join in the game
instead of cleaning up.
They usually say no when I ask them to help. For example, we played
Luke's somebody game this morning, which is like a bunch of little
colorform type body parts that get stuck to your guy's body. After
the game is over, the only way to put the pieces back on their mat is
to wet them with a damp rag. It takes longer to put that game away
than most board games. Alisha and I put our pieces away and Matt and
Luke said they didn't want to put theirs away. So while I put theirs
away, Alisha set up her Tomagutchi game. I wasn't quite done yet
when she was done setting up the game and she was saying, "Come on
Mom, we're ready". So I said, "Well, I'm still putting the last game
away. If someone can come and help me I'll be done quicker and can
play faster." She did, but she did it while complaining about how
it's not fair that she had to do it because Matt wouldn't.
We played Tomagutchi with Matt whining and asking how much longer
until I could play Operation. (He wanted to play that instead of
Spider man, and then play Spider man and his homemade board game
later). I just breathed through his whining, because he was really
upset that the game he chose was going to be played last. I just
kept patiently saying stuff like, "I know you're anxious to play, and
we'll get to it soon".
They don't play board games together very often because Luke doesn't
have a huge attention span and needs a patient adult to keep him
going. "Roll the dice now" "Time to pick up your card now!" "Okay,
now let's count the spaces together!" And Matt and Alisha just don't
often get along together. Alisha gets very frustrated with both of
them. When I'm involved I can keep things going more smoothly so she
doesn't get so frustrated. They ARE a handful, so I can see why an
11 year old could get frustrated always being the patient, mature
one.
As soon as Tomagutchi was over, Alisha put it away and I got
operation down. I played Operation with Matt and made sandwiches for
us in between my turns. Alisha and Luke didn't want to play. They
went outside to play a pretend Lord of the Rings game. They asked me
if I would play with them when I was done with operation. I said
that I would be that fairy lady (I couldn't remember her name or
exactly what she was) who showed them their future in the second
movie, and that they could enter my kingdom (inside) and visit me
during the game whenever they wanted to. They didn't like that and
said that that wasn't actually playing with them. They begged a
little, but I explained to Alisha that I really needed some time to
rest for a few minutes and then some time to clean up. She did
understand I think but was still disappointed. So, was it okay for
me at that point to not go outside and play?
Did you ask them yesterday to say what
> they wanted to do today and they've claimed dibs on "play thisboardgame" so
> that you have individual boardgames to play with differentindividuals? It
> seems over-scheduled and under-group-shared (just from impressionsfrom reading
> it).No, I didn't ask. They asked. Alisha's needed her house fixed for a
few days now and we just kept running out of day time to do it.
She's been disappointed that I haven't been getting to it, so I
really need to get that done with her today. So that was one thing
we needed to do.
The list of games they wanted to play (not a physically written down
list, but a mental list in each of their heads) started yesterday.
We were out much of the day yesterday. My dad's birthday dinner,
library, shoe shopping for Matt and we stopped at my dad's flea
market and found a Tomagutchi game that Alisha's been wanting for a
long time. And since stuff they find at Grandpa's flea market is
usually free to them, we couldn't turn that down! When we got home
yesterday there wasn't much time for board game playing, so we said
that we'd play it tomorrow. Yesterday morning before we had left the
house to do all these things, Matt had gotten down a board game and
asked me to play it but I was running around getting things ready to
leave the house and told him we'd play it either at night or the next
day. He said okay, "And could we play Spider Man board game too?" I
said okay.
Well, today's the next day. And Luke heard us talking about games we
wanted to play and he wanted to pick a game to play too. So we
played one game that each of them picked. Matt still has two more he
wants to play today. I still didn't do that darn mighty beanz house
yet.
Maybe you need to schedule some days of
> "nothing," some days of stillness and quiet.I don't usually schedule our days, but my kids usually ask me to do
so many things that I can't do all at once, that I end up
saying, "Well, after I do this with Matt and then this with Luke,
I'll do this with you. And then after I do that with you, I'll go
and do that other thing that Matt and Luke didn't want to do. And
then, if there's time at the end of the day, we'll do that other
thing. If there's not time at the end of the day, we'll have to do
it tomorrow. And tomorrow they remember what we didn't do, and a new
line of "Can we do this" starts to add to it.
> Can you casually, naturally separate them? Give one an errand,another one a
> puzzle (not jigsaw, some physical one-piece or paper-puzzle) andget them
> engrossed in different things that don't involve you or each othersometimes?
It's funny, because when I casually ask one to do an errand in order
to separate them when they're starting to fight, they have often
looked at me and said, "You're just saying that because we're
fighting". And then I'll say something like, "Well, it really needs
to be done, and I'd really appreciate it. Plus it would be good for
you two to have a break from each other" then they'll say something
like, "No fair! He should be the one to leave. He started it!..."
and then refuse to go do whatever I wanted to send them to do. They
don't go along with that kind of distraction very easily.
If I give them something that doesn't involve me to do, they'll
say, "But I don't want to do this, I want to do ________ with you!"
They just came in from their Lord of the Rings game (Darn! And I
didn't even start my cleaning yet!) Oooh!!! They just said they
want to watch Lord of the Rings again to get more ideas for their
game. Oh. Alisha wants me to watch it with them. I told her that I
would watch it while I was cleaning up, but that I might be in and
out of the room some. I know that she had in mind me sitting with
one on either side of me, one on my lap, covered up with a blanket
and doing nothing but watching the tv. She accepted my answer but in
a kind of dejected "Well, okay if that's all you can give me" kind of
way. I guess I just worry to much. I don't want her to feel sad,
like I'm not interested enough in what she wants to do that I don't
watch the movie with her as closely as she wants me to.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/2/2004 1:49:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sheran@...
writes:
They usually say no when I ask them to help.<<<<<
Then why, why, WHY is is not OK for YOU to say "no"?
Not arbitrarily and not every time, but when you *really* don't want to?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
They usually say no when I ask them to help.<<<<<
Then why, why, WHY is is not OK for YOU to say "no"?
Not arbitrarily and not every time, but when you *really* don't want to?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> I'm a little concerned that you've taken this "not saying 'no'" toa
> ridiculous extreme. You shouldn't be feeling like a martyr - youshould
> be taking care of yourself - your kids need you to be well-restedand
> they need to see you as a real person, too, not only as someone whohave to
> instantly satisfies their every little whim.
>
> I say yes if it is possible. I don't say "no" automatically or
> arbitrarily. I try to make things work. But that doesn't mean I
> be SO self-sacrificing that there is no room in my life for takingcare
> of myself or meeting any of my own needs. I don't have toautomatically
> always be last in line for my own time or attention. I'm thinkingyou
> need to find a little more balance.You're exactly right. I think it was Ren some time ago who pointed
out that maybe I just need to work on personal limits, and she's
right. It was easy when I only knew a James Dobson style of
parenting, because I was always in charge of them and didn't have to
take what they wanted into account very often. But since I've been
unschooling, I realized how much I wanted to show them they are
important and loved.
I wanted them to feel more important and loved than I did as a
child. I didn't want to post this because...well, what if my mom
reads this someday. I'm trying to have a good relationship with my
mom as an adult and I don't want to take a chance of upsetting her.
But it's just so relavant to why this balance is hard for me so if
she ever reads it I guess she'll just have to deal with it. She's
much better now that she's older and on antidepressants.
My parents were authoritarian and did spank a lot (with a big, thick
wooden paddle!) but my mom also used a different kind of
manipulation. She withheld her love unless I did exactly what she
wanted. So I would spend hours running errands around the house for
her. If I did just what she asked, right away, I was just the
world's best daughter and she loved me. If I didn't, she cried. She
said she didn't know why I didn't love her. Sometimes she had
psychotic type episodes where she thought I was her mother and she
called me by her mother's name. She often told me that if I wasn't
her daughter, she wouldn't want me to be her friend. If I argued
that there are people at school, church, etc. who thought I was a
great kid, she'd say it was because they didn't know how I really
am.
Sometimes she ran away from home and wrote letters to my dad, saying
that she was sorry, that she loved him, but she couldn't stand me and
my brother because we were such terribly behaved kids. And he'd read
the letters to us and cry and ask us to please try to be good. She'd
come home later in the day and I'd apologize to her and try even
harder to always do everything just right.
My brother did the opposite of me. He rebelled and never did
anything they wanted him to do. Once he told me that it didn't
matter, because they would eventually run out of things to take from
him. My mom took me to the side sometimes and told me how she hated
my brother. Once she said she wanted to get a dead bird and put it
in his bed so that he'd feel real bad when he turned down the covers.
By watching my brother's life I knew exactly what life was like for a
kid who didn't always say yes with a smile everytime they asked me
to. I made sure I said yes as much as possible. Until I met dh and
got engaged at 17, married at 18.
When my brother and I fought, my mom couldn't handle it. She would
chase us, and then run outside and threaten to jump out into the
highway in front of a car and kill herself. I could only stop her
from doing it by saying I was going to call a friend of hers and tell
on her, and then she'd come in and chase us until she exhausted
herself and balled herself up into a corner of a dark room and cry
like a child.
It wasn't always a very healthy childhood that I had! I don't like
to complain because it wasn't all bad, and others had it much worse
than me. But that gives you an idea of why it's hard for me to
determine when I can say yes and when I can say no.
I've become consumed with being the best possible mom. Everything
that was wrong about how my mom parented, I want to do right. I want
my kids to never, ever, EVER feel sad or unloved or like they have to
please me. My mom always did what she wanted and when she could, she
fit us in. I've been trying to do the opposite of that, because I
know what it felt like to be second to a mom's desires.
I guess I went to the opposite extreme. I'm going to work on the
balance thing and try to honor myself more throughout the day. It's
not easy though!
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], "kayb85" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
accomplish is this: We all sit down at the kitchen table and I bring
2 pieces of paper. On the first piece of paper, we write down
everything that people want to get done today. That might include
housework that needs to happen, projects that the kids want to do, or
anything that's already scheduled like friends coming over to play,
as well as things that I want to do. Then on the 2nd piece of paper,
I write down the times we have available. I put in anything that has
to be done - like eating, or laundry if we're out of clean clothes,
or whatever. Then we go around and try to add the other stuff in so
that everyone gets to at least get some of the stuff that they want
to do in the day. For stuff that doesn't get fit in, I add it to my
schedule or to-do list on my palm pilot so that we don't forget about
it. I think it has helped the kids to see how much time we've got in
a day and what can be accomplished in that time, and to prioritize
what they want to get done. We don't do this all the time - many of
our days are just free-ranging. But if the kids have projects or if I
have things I want to accomplish, it all seems to go better if
everyone knows that their own needs will be addressed.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
wrote:
> It's only 9:30 am and I already have a huge list of what the kidsfurther
> want to do with me today. The list will get longer as we go
> on in the day (it always does! lol).What we do if we've got a busy day or lots of things we want to
accomplish is this: We all sit down at the kitchen table and I bring
2 pieces of paper. On the first piece of paper, we write down
everything that people want to get done today. That might include
housework that needs to happen, projects that the kids want to do, or
anything that's already scheduled like friends coming over to play,
as well as things that I want to do. Then on the 2nd piece of paper,
I write down the times we have available. I put in anything that has
to be done - like eating, or laundry if we're out of clean clothes,
or whatever. Then we go around and try to add the other stuff in so
that everyone gets to at least get some of the stuff that they want
to do in the day. For stuff that doesn't get fit in, I add it to my
schedule or to-do list on my palm pilot so that we don't forget about
it. I think it has helped the kids to see how much time we've got in
a day and what can be accomplished in that time, and to prioritize
what they want to get done. We don't do this all the time - many of
our days are just free-ranging. But if the kids have projects or if I
have things I want to accomplish, it all seems to go better if
everyone knows that their own needs will be addressed.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
J. Stauffer
<<<< I need to pause a minute to breathe or I'll get really overwhelmed
close look at what is going on.
It sounds like each kid wants one-on-one time all day with you. Don't they
ever play with each other, without you?
<<<<<Because when I
if you don't want tears and arguments, you have to set up the situation, not
just drop it in their laps as it were.
While you are making the list with the kids of what they want to do today,
add something for yourself. Talk with them about it, let them know that
just like it is important to them for you to do things with them. It is
also important for you to do things alone. Let them know ahead of time when
you are planning to do it and then do it.
Julie S.
> thinking about adding one of my own interests to this day. :) >>>>>If just thinking about your day makes you stressed, you might want to take a
close look at what is going on.
It sounds like each kid wants one-on-one time all day with you. Don't they
ever play with each other, without you?
<<<<<Because when I
> stop to help them they have me helping them all day long. That's notBut you are in control of what you do with your day, not them. Of course,
> an exaggeration. >>>>>
if you don't want tears and arguments, you have to set up the situation, not
just drop it in their laps as it were.
While you are making the list with the kids of what they want to do today,
add something for yourself. Talk with them about it, let them know that
just like it is important to them for you to do things with them. It is
also important for you to do things alone. Let them know ahead of time when
you are planning to do it and then do it.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 9:09 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Highly Sensitive people
>
> > I guess I am taking this further because it is important to me that
> our
> > kids see that a lifestyle of learning continues throughout
> adulthood.
> > Unschooling isn't just about knowing our kids well and facilitating
> > their interests until they move out. It's a lifestyle for all ages.
> > Certainly the time to devote to multiple interests will vary
> according
> > to the ages and stages of our kids. I just wanted to put in a plug:
> > don't assume that pursuing your personal interests means time away
> from
> > children or that it means competing with your children's interests.
> >
> > And I'd ask any mother: what does interest you? If you've
> forgotten, it
> > might be time to simply think a bit about it again.
> >
> > Julie
>
> Wow, this has given me a lot to think about! Thanks for writing this
> out. Now I'm thinking I should be making more of an effort at
> pursuing my own interests. Yet I still feel that pursuing my own
> interests WILL be competing with my children's interests to some
> point. From past experience, I know that they do. Me pursuing my
> own interests almost always results in me telling the kids "No" at
> some point.
>
> It's only 9:30 am and I already have a huge list of what the kids
> want to do with me today. The list will get longer as we go further
> on in the day (it always does! lol).
>
> Alisha has asked me if I would play a board game with her and re-do
> her mighty beanz house (The mighty beanz aren't making it through the
> tubes the way they should.)
>
> Matt wants me to play a board game he made up and he wants me to play
> a Spider man board game.
>
> Luke wants me to play a game of Somebody and I told him the other day
> that I'd look for a book we have about electricity and read it to him
> and I still haven't done that yet.
>
> I have some housework to do because we're having company tomorrow.
> Just the housework itself competes with the kids. Guaranteed they'll
> want me to do other things than the things that already have on their
> mental list of things to do today, and they'll tell me they wish I
> didn't have to clean up. (And I'm NOT a neat freak by any stretch of
> the imagination!)
>
> I need to pause a minute to breathe or I'll get really overwhelmed
> thinking about adding one of my own interests to this day. :)
> Because it seems like anytime I start wanting to do stuff for myself
> the kids say, "But what about this, this and this that you said you'd
> do with us?" So I put down what I wanted to do and go do this, this,
> and this with them. I tell myself that when they're done needing me
> to play or prepare food or clean up that THEN I'll get my interest
> in. But when I try doing that they need me until the time they go to
> bed. Then I stay up late to try to squeeze in what I wanted to do
> and the next day I'm tired and have to force myself not to be
> grumpy.
>
> I don't get when people say, "I do my thing and when they need me, I
> stop and help them and then go back to my own thing". Because when I
> stop to help them they have me helping them all day long. That's not
> an exaggeration. I thought I had this resolved in my own head, that
> that's just the way things are, that I need to accept it and
> appreciate that they want to be with me so much, that they won't be
> little forever so appreciate while it lasts. Now you have me
> doubting that again. :)
>
> When I first read your post yesterday, it really struck a chord with
> me. I can see the truth in what you wrote. So yesterday I got out
> some books that I thought would make some good altered books. I had
> read about people doing this and it interested me a lot. Of course I
> did most of it while staying up really late after the kids went to
> bed <grin> but at least I did it. :) (I'm TIRED now! lol I only
> got 4 hours of sleep and I need much more than that.)
>
> I hear the kids out in the livingroom beginning to fight. Alisha
> just asked me how much longer I'm going to be on the computer. Deep
> breath...Gotta go try to find some kind of balance to this day!
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<<< I'm a little concerned that you've taken this "not saying 'no'" to a
template they don't want to be like (traditional parents, school-at-homers)
but there is no unschooling template so they simply move to the opposite end
of the spectrum.
Living in a respectful relationship means respecting yourself too. It means
really, really looking at day-to-day interactions with your family members
and being willing to examine whether everyone is being treated fairly.
My biggest pet peeve is people who mistakenly think that giving children
room to express themselves means that you do nothing when they are rude to
others, screaming at the parent, etc.. (I'm not talking about spankings or
timeouts, but simply talking to the child about how their behavior is
affecting others, taking them on a walk to chill out, giving hugs to calm
down, etc.)
These then are the same parents who complain that other children want to
exclude their kids from play. Well, duh, I don't like to play with people
that yell at me, take my toys, throw sand at me, etc., either.
There is a balance, a fairness that often people seem to be missing. They
move from "the parent is king" to "the child is king" and seem to miss
consensus and boundary building all together.
Julie S.---down off the soapbox
> ridiculous extreme. You shouldn't be feeling like a martyr - you shouldI think this is a common problem with new unschoolers. They know what
> be taking care of your>>>>>>
template they don't want to be like (traditional parents, school-at-homers)
but there is no unschooling template so they simply move to the opposite end
of the spectrum.
Living in a respectful relationship means respecting yourself too. It means
really, really looking at day-to-day interactions with your family members
and being willing to examine whether everyone is being treated fairly.
My biggest pet peeve is people who mistakenly think that giving children
room to express themselves means that you do nothing when they are rude to
others, screaming at the parent, etc.. (I'm not talking about spankings or
timeouts, but simply talking to the child about how their behavior is
affecting others, taking them on a walk to chill out, giving hugs to calm
down, etc.)
These then are the same parents who complain that other children want to
exclude their kids from play. Well, duh, I don't like to play with people
that yell at me, take my toys, throw sand at me, etc., either.
There is a balance, a fairness that often people seem to be missing. They
move from "the parent is king" to "the child is king" and seem to miss
consensus and boundary building all together.
Julie S.---down off the soapbox
----- Original Message -----
From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Highly Sensitive people
>
> On Jun 2, 2004, at 7:09 AM, kayb85 wrote:
>
> > Me pursuing my
> > own interests almost always results in me telling the kids "No" at
> > some point.
>
> Sheila,
>
> I'm a little concerned that you've taken this "not saying 'no'" to a
> ridiculous extreme. You shouldn't be feeling like a martyr - you should
> be taking care of yourself - your kids need you to be well-rested and
> they need to see you as a real person, too, not only as someone who
> instantly satisfies their every little whim.
>
> I say yes if it is possible. I don't say "no" automatically or
> arbitrarily. I try to make things work. But that doesn't mean I have to
> be SO self-sacrificing that there is no room in my life for taking care
> of myself or meeting any of my own needs. I don't have to automatically
> always be last in line for my own time or attention. I'm thinking you
> need to find a little more balance.
>
> -pam
>
>
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Have a Nice Day!
My biggest pet peeve is people who mistakenly think that giving children
room to express themselves means that you do nothing when they are rude to
others, screaming at the parent, etc.. <<<<
I can tell you that one of the reasons I missed this was that it doesn't get spelled out often. Or maybe it just doesn't happen that often, I don't know. I know I've had to deal with some pretty scary and insolent situations and its hard to bring that up on a list like this because you don't want to embarass your family by discussing it with strangers.
Sometimes I think we are so motivated to help people abandon the "old ways" that we forget that its a process and people need actual tools to move from one thing to the other.
And then its hard to give those tools because each family and each situation is unique unto itself, so there is no "one size fits all" way to do it. Instead, each situation has to be dealt with individually because the people involved, and their emotional state, their feelings, their priorities, and the circumstances that contribute to it all could be different from one time to the next. So what appears to be the same problem as last week, really might not be.
I am having a discussion on the PA Unschoolers list right now about what this very kind of thing.
It is really hard to get the ins and outs of that if people don't spell it out as each situation comes along.
Instead, it just "appears" that the unschooling noncoercive parent give the child full control with no guidance at all, when in all reality its not like that.
Not sure if I'm making sense.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
room to express themselves means that you do nothing when they are rude to
others, screaming at the parent, etc.. <<<<
I can tell you that one of the reasons I missed this was that it doesn't get spelled out often. Or maybe it just doesn't happen that often, I don't know. I know I've had to deal with some pretty scary and insolent situations and its hard to bring that up on a list like this because you don't want to embarass your family by discussing it with strangers.
Sometimes I think we are so motivated to help people abandon the "old ways" that we forget that its a process and people need actual tools to move from one thing to the other.
And then its hard to give those tools because each family and each situation is unique unto itself, so there is no "one size fits all" way to do it. Instead, each situation has to be dealt with individually because the people involved, and their emotional state, their feelings, their priorities, and the circumstances that contribute to it all could be different from one time to the next. So what appears to be the same problem as last week, really might not be.
I am having a discussion on the PA Unschoolers list right now about what this very kind of thing.
It is really hard to get the ins and outs of that if people don't spell it out as each situation comes along.
Instead, it just "appears" that the unschooling noncoercive parent give the child full control with no guidance at all, when in all reality its not like that.
Not sure if I'm making sense.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
Sheila,
That had to be so hard. There was a degree of that in my house too but not to that extreme, so I also have difficulty knowing when to say no, but I usually end up leaning too much toward my own needs and not theirs.
I'm also easily distracted at times, so unschooling the way I'd like to do it can be very overwhelming to me. Instead of getting swept away by my kids, I end up paralyzed.
It might help to think of the whole unschooling thing as a 'work in progress'.
It doesn't have to be perfect today. While I might just pick one or two things to do that my kids like, maybe you can just pick one thing you'd like to do for yourself today, and schedule it in with your kids. Make sure they are prepared for the fact that you are going to do that.
They probably won't like it, and they will probably complain if for no other reason than this is a new thing to them, and they probably won't understand when it hasn't been this way before.
Maybe keep it really short at first, and set a timer so they know when that time period will end. Ease them into it so they can get used to the idea that its ok for mommy to take care of herself.
Don't forget that your kids might be parents someday. And they too will need to know how to take care of themselves while balancing a family. Very few people could keep up at the pace that you are keeping. I know I couldn't.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That had to be so hard. There was a degree of that in my house too but not to that extreme, so I also have difficulty knowing when to say no, but I usually end up leaning too much toward my own needs and not theirs.
I'm also easily distracted at times, so unschooling the way I'd like to do it can be very overwhelming to me. Instead of getting swept away by my kids, I end up paralyzed.
It might help to think of the whole unschooling thing as a 'work in progress'.
It doesn't have to be perfect today. While I might just pick one or two things to do that my kids like, maybe you can just pick one thing you'd like to do for yourself today, and schedule it in with your kids. Make sure they are prepared for the fact that you are going to do that.
They probably won't like it, and they will probably complain if for no other reason than this is a new thing to them, and they probably won't understand when it hasn't been this way before.
Maybe keep it really short at first, and set a timer so they know when that time period will end. Ease them into it so they can get used to the idea that its ok for mommy to take care of herself.
Don't forget that your kids might be parents someday. And they too will need to know how to take care of themselves while balancing a family. Very few people could keep up at the pace that you are keeping. I know I couldn't.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** I've become consumed with being the best possible mom. Everything
that was wrong about how my mom parented, I want to do right. I want
my kids to never, ever, EVER feel sad or unloved or like they have to
please me.**
OK, my husband behaves in a somewhat similar way. He had a nice family,
but his dad was in the Navy and away sometimes for really long
stretches. And my husband was the youngest of the five kids. He never
got nearly as much time and attention from his dad as he wanted. So we
have one child (James) and Rick almost always says "yes" when James
wants his time and attention. I think my husband takes it to an
extreme, but I can understand, a little bit, why he does it.
I think you are not just being "opposite" of your mom, you are also
giving your children what you wished for and didn't have. That's a
really understandable urge.
Betsy
that was wrong about how my mom parented, I want to do right. I want
my kids to never, ever, EVER feel sad or unloved or like they have to
please me.**
OK, my husband behaves in a somewhat similar way. He had a nice family,
but his dad was in the Navy and away sometimes for really long
stretches. And my husband was the youngest of the five kids. He never
got nearly as much time and attention from his dad as he wanted. So we
have one child (James) and Rick almost always says "yes" when James
wants his time and attention. I think my husband takes it to an
extreme, but I can understand, a little bit, why he does it.
I think you are not just being "opposite" of your mom, you are also
giving your children what you wished for and didn't have. That's a
really understandable urge.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/2/04 3:22:46 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< Instead, it just "appears" that the unschooling noncoercive parent give
the child full control with no guidance at all, when in all reality its not like
that. >>
I don't think unschooling works as well in families where the parents aren't
already pretty socially savvy and pretty analytical. Maybe social traditions
exist to give the clueless a way to function. Maybe since it's only recently
being recognized that there are legitimate differences in people (it's not
just obstinance or laziness of one doesn't have certain skills or abilities),
much of cultural practice is to provide a framework for all KINDS of people to
"get things to work."
We all know that THAT doesn't work for everyone. But it works for lots.
Unschooling will NOT work for everyone. But it works for lots.
Instead of letting the kids "run loose" and "call all the shots" or whatever
all, people should have read the other advice in all these discussions which wa
s "don't have arbitrary rules," and "Treat them the way you would treat
guests" or "friends" or "housemates, not servants" and other discussions that have
come through of a similar nature.
Sandra
<< Instead, it just "appears" that the unschooling noncoercive parent give
the child full control with no guidance at all, when in all reality its not like
that. >>
I don't think unschooling works as well in families where the parents aren't
already pretty socially savvy and pretty analytical. Maybe social traditions
exist to give the clueless a way to function. Maybe since it's only recently
being recognized that there are legitimate differences in people (it's not
just obstinance or laziness of one doesn't have certain skills or abilities),
much of cultural practice is to provide a framework for all KINDS of people to
"get things to work."
We all know that THAT doesn't work for everyone. But it works for lots.
Unschooling will NOT work for everyone. But it works for lots.
Instead of letting the kids "run loose" and "call all the shots" or whatever
all, people should have read the other advice in all these discussions which wa
s "don't have arbitrary rules," and "Treat them the way you would treat
guests" or "friends" or "housemates, not servants" and other discussions that have
come through of a similar nature.
Sandra
Mark and Julie
Instead of letting the kids "run loose" and "call all the shots" or
whatever all, people should have read the other advice in all these
discussions which was "don't have arbitrary rules," and "Treat them the way
you would treat
guests" or "friends" or "housemates, not servants" and other discussions
that have come through of a similar nature.
Sandra
Lots of people are hopeless at being assertive with their peers though. I
see people all the time unable to say no to anyone, doing things for others
even though it is really inconvenient. I have been like that though
thankfully not for a long time now. So "treat them the way you would treat
guest or friends" can lead to becoming a doormat and letting the kids walk
all over the parents and others.
When parents see kids as possessions and in need of training, then they
become just slightly higher up in the pecking order from the family dog. And
it's easy then for a parent to be assertive or aggressive. They don't need
people/communication skills, they have power.
When the power is given up and exchanged for respectful parenting, the lack
of people skills and also self-respect becomes evident because the parents
are treating their kids as they would adults and being walked all over.
Julie
whatever all, people should have read the other advice in all these
discussions which was "don't have arbitrary rules," and "Treat them the way
you would treat
guests" or "friends" or "housemates, not servants" and other discussions
that have come through of a similar nature.
Sandra
Lots of people are hopeless at being assertive with their peers though. I
see people all the time unable to say no to anyone, doing things for others
even though it is really inconvenient. I have been like that though
thankfully not for a long time now. So "treat them the way you would treat
guest or friends" can lead to becoming a doormat and letting the kids walk
all over the parents and others.
When parents see kids as possessions and in need of training, then they
become just slightly higher up in the pecking order from the family dog. And
it's easy then for a parent to be assertive or aggressive. They don't need
people/communication skills, they have power.
When the power is given up and exchanged for respectful parenting, the lack
of people skills and also self-respect becomes evident because the parents
are treating their kids as they would adults and being walked all over.
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/2/04 6:39:17 PM, mjsolich@... writes:
<< When the power is given up and exchanged for respectful parenting, the lack
of people skills and also self-respect becomes evident because the parents
are treating their kids as they would adults and being walked all over.
Only assertive, emotionally courageous people should be unschoolers?
It's a problem.
Maybe options that are unworkable for some people shouldn't be waved in front
of them as something that could work for them. Maybe we're doing people a
disservice. I've thought many times before that this is just one more thing to
throw out there that many people can't do/have/understand.
It's a rough philosophical and moral consideration sometimes.
Sandra
<< When the power is given up and exchanged for respectful parenting, the lack
of people skills and also self-respect becomes evident because the parents
are treating their kids as they would adults and being walked all over.
>>You're right. So what's the recommendation?
Only assertive, emotionally courageous people should be unschoolers?
It's a problem.
Maybe options that are unworkable for some people shouldn't be waved in front
of them as something that could work for them. Maybe we're doing people a
disservice. I've thought many times before that this is just one more thing to
throw out there that many people can't do/have/understand.
It's a rough philosophical and moral consideration sometimes.
Sandra
[email protected]
There's one of those "inspirational stories" that goes around by e-mail about
fitting a bunch of rocks in a big jar. You have to put the big ones in
first. (DOH. I spoiled the punchline.)
When we plan our day, the night before, what we're after is the big stuff.
Yesterday we all knew (or I knew and the appropriate others knew):
Keith had a training session at work so would be away from the phone, and if
he got back soon enough he would go to fighter practice.
Kirby worked, 3:00 to 7:30.
Holly wanted to go to free lunch at the park at noon, and roller skating at
6:00.
Marty wanted to go shopping for shoes and maybe cloth for a costume he wants
for a gaming tournament (teensy convention of sorts).
I had no appointments, but did want to finish cleaning and putting some
camping gear away.
The least flexible: Keith and Kirby.
I called the air conditioned van because Kirby only works a mile away.
Marty went to free lunch with Holly, she stayed to play, he came home and we
went shopping.
Keith came home earlyish (4:00), went grocery shopping for us (he does
Costco, I don't) and Marty decided to go with him to fighter practice. Unscheduled
for Marty, but no problem for anyone.
Around all that, Holly and I cleaned out her rat cage, I finished making a
rat "room" (building/structure for inside the cage) with popsicle sticks and
grocery-bag paper, Marty played an online game for a few hours after Kirby went
to work and got off of it. Marty and I went to lunch (they were out of
free-lunch when he got there; others shared with Holly, and they're little-kid-sized
anyway), a shoe store, a thrift store, crafts/fabric, and back home.
I drove Holly and two other kids to skate. They'll call if I'm also the
pick-up parent.
If we had PLANNED every bit of that, it could've seemed overwhelming. We
just had the outline. The big rocks. We let the other stuff flow in and around
that.
When everyone's home, by 9:00 or so (varying), everyone will have a few hours
to do whatever they want (one or two for Keith, six or so for Kirby, others
in between). Some of it is likely to involve pairs or groups, and I don't know
what anyone will do, but Keith brought in a DVD of The Last Samurai.
Maybe plan just the biggest stuff, and don't leave anyone entirely out.
Sandra
fitting a bunch of rocks in a big jar. You have to put the big ones in
first. (DOH. I spoiled the punchline.)
When we plan our day, the night before, what we're after is the big stuff.
Yesterday we all knew (or I knew and the appropriate others knew):
Keith had a training session at work so would be away from the phone, and if
he got back soon enough he would go to fighter practice.
Kirby worked, 3:00 to 7:30.
Holly wanted to go to free lunch at the park at noon, and roller skating at
6:00.
Marty wanted to go shopping for shoes and maybe cloth for a costume he wants
for a gaming tournament (teensy convention of sorts).
I had no appointments, but did want to finish cleaning and putting some
camping gear away.
The least flexible: Keith and Kirby.
I called the air conditioned van because Kirby only works a mile away.
Marty went to free lunch with Holly, she stayed to play, he came home and we
went shopping.
Keith came home earlyish (4:00), went grocery shopping for us (he does
Costco, I don't) and Marty decided to go with him to fighter practice. Unscheduled
for Marty, but no problem for anyone.
Around all that, Holly and I cleaned out her rat cage, I finished making a
rat "room" (building/structure for inside the cage) with popsicle sticks and
grocery-bag paper, Marty played an online game for a few hours after Kirby went
to work and got off of it. Marty and I went to lunch (they were out of
free-lunch when he got there; others shared with Holly, and they're little-kid-sized
anyway), a shoe store, a thrift store, crafts/fabric, and back home.
I drove Holly and two other kids to skate. They'll call if I'm also the
pick-up parent.
If we had PLANNED every bit of that, it could've seemed overwhelming. We
just had the outline. The big rocks. We let the other stuff flow in and around
that.
When everyone's home, by 9:00 or so (varying), everyone will have a few hours
to do whatever they want (one or two for Keith, six or so for Kirby, others
in between). Some of it is likely to involve pairs or groups, and I don't know
what anyone will do, but Keith brought in a DVD of The Last Samurai.
Maybe plan just the biggest stuff, and don't leave anyone entirely out.
Sandra
kayb85
> You're right. So what's the recommendation?waved in front
> Only assertive, emotionally courageous people should be unschoolers?
>
> It's a problem.
>
> Maybe options that are unworkable for some people shouldn't be
> of them as something that could work for them. Maybe we're doingpeople a
> disservice. I've thought many times before that this is just onemore thing to
> throw out there that many people can't do/have/understand.You're definitely not doing people a disservice. What would be a sad
>
> It's a rough philosophical and moral consideration sometimes.
would be not letting people know about the many different aspects of
the unschooling lifestyle.
Some people probably get it all right away. Probably ones who are
emotionally healthy to begin with.
Those who have some emotional healing to do are going to go slower
and have a rougher time of it to be sure, but I think those are the
ones who will benefit from unschooling the most in the long run.
Some people aren't going to be willing to change or aren't willing to
see that they need to change, and then it probably won't work, but
I'd like to think that most people want to better themselves.
I began seeing a homeopath instead of a medical doctor, and she has
been working on emotional stuff with me. For example, she noticed
that I was eating for emotional reasons and that was causing some
problems for me. She started telling me stuff about emotional
wholeness that I was ready to "get" because of all the reading I've
done here.
She's been telling me for a long time that I'm not taking care of my
own needs enough, and that I need to do some things for myself. I
was resisting that because I thought that contradicted unschooling.
I'd do things for myself for a few days, then feel guilty that I
could be doing more with my kids, then going back to doing nothing
but kid stuff all day. What she said sounded right to me, but I
really couldn't bring myself to do it because I misinterpreted stuff
that was said here about trying to never say no. I tried to
literally never say no to anything and exhausted myself, but thought
I had to keep pushing on if I was going to be a good mom. When I
absolutely had to say no I felt guilty.
Today has been a huge day for lights going on in my head--I will
probably never forget this day. I thought I had understood all there
was to understand about unschooling, and here I am seeing it from a
whole different perspective.
So while assertive, emotionally courageous people might get
unschooling quicker and easier, unschooling can also help people
become assertive, emotionally courageous people.
Sheila
Jon and Rue Kream
>>If I did just what she asked, right away, I was just theworld's best daughter and she loved me. If I didn't, she cried.
**Hi Sheila - It sounds like you're repeating the dynamic between yourself
and your mom - your part hasn't changed, but you're setting your kids up to
take your mom's part. I think all the advice you've gotten to schedule
yourself into the day too is good. What you want and need is important, and
it won't do your kids any harm for you to show yourself some love too. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> While you are making the list with the kids of what they want to dotoday,
> add something for yourself. Talk with them about it, let them knowthat
> just like it is important to them for you to do things with them.It is
> also important for you to do things alone. Let them know ahead oftime when
> you are planning to do it and then do it.I think that sounds like a great way for me to start finding more
balance.
Thanks!
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/2/2004 7:27:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time, sheran@...
writes:
So while assertive, emotionally courageous people might get
unschooling quicker and easier, unschooling can also help people
become assertive, emotionally courageous people.
=============
That makes me feel lots better. You're right. Lots of people have started
here ("here" not necesarily meaning this list, but discussions about
unschooling) that when they started working on deschooling and being more aware, it
changed their lives.
But on the other hand, today at unschooling.com someone seemed to be wanting
a blueprint and some guarantees (maybe not, but I interpretted it that way),
and one time years ago some guy [male guy] in a chat got kinda snarky with me
and said if I gave advice that people decided years later had been bad, that I
could be sued.
I backed him down and told him that was ridiculous, that free advice was free
and I was in no way making anybody do anything, but sometimes I worry that
some people will go too far with some skewed interpretation and not know how to
get back.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
So while assertive, emotionally courageous people might get
unschooling quicker and easier, unschooling can also help people
become assertive, emotionally courageous people.
=============
That makes me feel lots better. You're right. Lots of people have started
here ("here" not necesarily meaning this list, but discussions about
unschooling) that when they started working on deschooling and being more aware, it
changed their lives.
But on the other hand, today at unschooling.com someone seemed to be wanting
a blueprint and some guarantees (maybe not, but I interpretted it that way),
and one time years ago some guy [male guy] in a chat got kinda snarky with me
and said if I gave advice that people decided years later had been bad, that I
could be sued.
I backed him down and told him that was ridiculous, that free advice was free
and I was in no way making anybody do anything, but sometimes I worry that
some people will go too far with some skewed interpretation and not know how to
get back.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<<< Instead, it just "appears" that the unschooling noncoercive parent
give the child full control with no guidance at all, when in all reality its
not like that.>>>>>>
Sometimes it can "appear" that way to traditional parents but some times it
also really is that way.
I have had situations where child A has taken a toy from child B, gotten
frustrated over a situation and screamed at child B, seen child B headed for
the swing and run over to purposefully grab it from child B, etc., etc..
All in plain view of the parents with Child A's parents doing absolutely
nothing to help the situation other than talk to child B about how Child A
is just expressing themselves and basically telling child B to put up with
it.
Julie S.
give the child full control with no guidance at all, when in all reality its
not like that.>>>>>>
Sometimes it can "appear" that way to traditional parents but some times it
also really is that way.
I have had situations where child A has taken a toy from child B, gotten
frustrated over a situation and screamed at child B, seen child B headed for
the swing and run over to purposefully grab it from child B, etc., etc..
All in plain view of the parents with Child A's parents doing absolutely
nothing to help the situation other than talk to child B about how Child A
is just expressing themselves and basically telling child B to put up with
it.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Have a Nice Day!" <litlrooh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Highly Sensitive people
> My biggest pet peeve is people who mistakenly think that giving children
> room to express themselves means that you do nothing when they are rude to
> others, screaming at the parent, etc.. <<<<
>
>
> I can tell you that one of the reasons I missed this was that it doesn't
get spelled out often. Or maybe it just doesn't happen that often, I don't
know. I know I've had to deal with some pretty scary and insolent
situations and its hard to bring that up on a list like this because you
don't want to embarass your family by discussing it with strangers.
>
> Sometimes I think we are so motivated to help people abandon the "old
ways" that we forget that its a process and people need actual tools to move
from one thing to the other.
>
> And then its hard to give those tools because each family and each
situation is unique unto itself, so there is no "one size fits all" way to
do it. Instead, each situation has to be dealt with individually because the
people involved, and their emotional state, their feelings, their
priorities, and the circumstances that contribute to it all could be
different from one time to the next. So what appears to be the same problem
as last week, really might not be.
>
> I am having a discussion on the PA Unschoolers list right now about what
this very kind of thing.
>
> It is really hard to get the ins and outs of that if people don't spell it
out as each situation comes along.
>
> Instead, it just "appears" that the unschooling noncoercive parent give
the child full control with no guidance at all, when in all reality its not
like that.
>
> Not sure if I'm making sense.
>
> Kristen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<"don't have arbitrary rules," >>>>>
Maybe this should be written "don't have ARBITRARY rules" .
Seems for some reason that people just read it as don't any type of
guidelines, any kind of boundaries.
Julie S.
Maybe this should be written "don't have ARBITRARY rules" .
Seems for some reason that people just read it as don't any type of
guidelines, any kind of boundaries.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Highly Sensitive people
>
> In a message dated 6/2/04 3:22:46 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
>
> << Instead, it just "appears" that the unschooling noncoercive parent give
> the child full control with no guidance at all, when in all reality its
not like
> that. >>
>
> I don't think unschooling works as well in families where the parents
aren't
> already pretty socially savvy and pretty analytical. Maybe social
traditions
> exist to give the clueless a way to function. Maybe since it's only
recently
> being recognized that there are legitimate differences in people (it's not
> just obstinance or laziness of one doesn't have certain skills or
abilities),
> much of cultural practice is to provide a framework for all KINDS of
people to
> "get things to work."
>
> We all know that THAT doesn't work for everyone. But it works for lots.
>
> Unschooling will NOT work for everyone. But it works for lots.
>
> Instead of letting the kids "run loose" and "call all the shots" or
whatever
> all, people should have read the other advice in all these discussions
which wa
> s "don't have arbitrary rules," and "Treat them the way you would treat
> guests" or "friends" or "housemates, not servants" and other discussions
that have
> come through of a similar nature.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<< When the power is given up and exchanged for respectful parenting, the
lack
people hurry up and develop those skills and self-love without the in depth
support that Sandra talks about, such as LaLeche and 12 step programs. Most
unschoolers tend to be rather isolated and swimming upstream in their
homeschool communities.
Julie S.--who thinks unschooling is not for the faint of heart
lack
> of people skills and also self-respect becomes evident because the parentsI think you are absolutely right, Julie. But I don't know how you help
> are treating their kids as they would adults and being walked all over.>>>
people hurry up and develop those skills and self-love without the in depth
support that Sandra talks about, such as LaLeche and 12 step programs. Most
unschoolers tend to be rather isolated and swimming upstream in their
homeschool communities.
Julie S.--who thinks unschooling is not for the faint of heart
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark and Julie" <mjsolich@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Highly Sensitive people
>
> Instead of letting the kids "run loose" and "call all the shots" or
> whatever all, people should have read the other advice in all these
> discussions which was "don't have arbitrary rules," and "Treat them the
way
> you would treat
> guests" or "friends" or "housemates, not servants" and other discussions
> that have come through of a similar nature.
>
> Sandra
>
> Lots of people are hopeless at being assertive with their peers though. I
> see people all the time unable to say no to anyone, doing things for
others
> even though it is really inconvenient. I have been like that though
> thankfully not for a long time now. So "treat them the way you would treat
> guest or friends" can lead to becoming a doormat and letting the kids
walk
> all over the parents and others.
>
> When parents see kids as possessions and in need of training, then they
> become just slightly higher up in the pecking order from the family dog.
And
> it's easy then for a parent to be assertive or aggressive. They don't need
> people/communication skills, they have power.
>
> When the power is given up and exchanged for respectful parenting, the
lack
> of people skills and also self-respect becomes evident because the parents
> are treating their kids as they would adults and being walked all over.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Jennifer
> > Me pursuing myat
> > own interests almost always results in me telling the kids "No"
> > some point.I wonder, what is wrong with saying no? You are't doing your kids
any favors by stopping your life for them. Kids need to see their
parents happy and fulfilled in their own right. They also need to
see that having children doesn't mean giving up yourself
completely.
There's a reason flight attendants tell you to take a breath of
oxygen before your children in case of an emergency. If you can't
breathe and function, you won't be able to help your children when
they need you the most.
If you aren't able to tell your children no, they miss valueable
opportunities to learn to do things for themselves. They need to be
able to make decisions, make mistakes and learn from them. Whether
that means playing a board game, building a model airplane or
drinking/smoking/doing drugs at a party or saying no when someone
offers them.
Jennifer