dyslexic?
Linda Johnson
Hi All. My name is Linda and I've only posted once so far. I have an issue I could use some feed back on. My oldest, Logan, is eight right now,we pulled him out of public school at the beginning of last year. He had already been labeled "learning disabled with possible attention issues". I had tried the "school at home" and we were both miserable. That's when I found John Holt's books. Absolutely amazing man, wish I could have met him! So now we try to follow the unschooling philosophy ,although I'm still new and probably screw up a lot! Anyway here's the thing, Logan is still having tons of trouble with writing and small motor skills are really tough for him(like cutting, spreading peanut butter, etc...) He reverses all the letters, often having them facing different directions on the same page and writing is very hard for him. His writing is also very hard to read,even for him. He's a good reader (reads young adult books) but, avoids books with small print like the
plague. I DO NOT make a big deal out out of this, I don't even mention it, but he does. It does frustrate him that these things seem to come so easy to his six year old brother and he has to struggle so hard. We did find out that his eyes don't track well together and he has some vision problems. His vision is 20/20,it's more the way his eyes work together with his brain, I guess. We have another appt. next week so I should learn more then. I found a great website on this HTTP://www.pavevision.org . He also is very impulsive or"clumsy" as he calls it. The other day he flung a door open on our truck right into another car so we'll be paying for that.(I know this was just an accident but this is just a good example of the type of things he does. He saw the car and then just flung the door open without considering the distance at all) Walks on things, into things, you get the idea. He ask me the other day why he was so "clumsy" (we don't tell him this, I don't know where he
got it). We just try to tell him to pay more attention to what he's doing. It's kind of like he has no spacial perception, which is one of the things they had said at the school too. Don't get me wrong, he is a great kid. He is very smart, gets very involved in whatever his interest at the time may be. The school he was at also suggested that he was also gifted(another label!) in science and social studies, he had scored way above grade level. He's extremely lovable,still loves to cuddle! In some ways, when you talk to him, he comes across older then he is. He likes older kids to hang out with usually, although thankfully with home schooling this isn't a big deal anymore. But impulse control can be really hard for him and sometimes this leads to problems with other kids. We just let him be himself and focus on the things he does well. This has helped his self-esteem enormously but sometimes I wonder if I should be doing more! Has anyone heard of vision training helping
these kind of things? From what I've read it seems like it can but if this is dyslexia or dysgraphia should we be getting him more help? What's the unschooling perspective on these things? Thanks for reading.
Linda
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plague. I DO NOT make a big deal out out of this, I don't even mention it, but he does. It does frustrate him that these things seem to come so easy to his six year old brother and he has to struggle so hard. We did find out that his eyes don't track well together and he has some vision problems. His vision is 20/20,it's more the way his eyes work together with his brain, I guess. We have another appt. next week so I should learn more then. I found a great website on this HTTP://www.pavevision.org . He also is very impulsive or"clumsy" as he calls it. The other day he flung a door open on our truck right into another car so we'll be paying for that.(I know this was just an accident but this is just a good example of the type of things he does. He saw the car and then just flung the door open without considering the distance at all) Walks on things, into things, you get the idea. He ask me the other day why he was so "clumsy" (we don't tell him this, I don't know where he
got it). We just try to tell him to pay more attention to what he's doing. It's kind of like he has no spacial perception, which is one of the things they had said at the school too. Don't get me wrong, he is a great kid. He is very smart, gets very involved in whatever his interest at the time may be. The school he was at also suggested that he was also gifted(another label!) in science and social studies, he had scored way above grade level. He's extremely lovable,still loves to cuddle! In some ways, when you talk to him, he comes across older then he is. He likes older kids to hang out with usually, although thankfully with home schooling this isn't a big deal anymore. But impulse control can be really hard for him and sometimes this leads to problems with other kids. We just let him be himself and focus on the things he does well. This has helped his self-esteem enormously but sometimes I wonder if I should be doing more! Has anyone heard of vision training helping
these kind of things? From what I've read it seems like it can but if this is dyslexia or dysgraphia should we be getting him more help? What's the unschooling perspective on these things? Thanks for reading.
Linda
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Dawn Adams
Linda writes:
He also is very impulsive or"clumsy" as he calls it. The other day he flung a door open on our truck right into another car so we'll be paying for that.(I know this was just an accident but this is just a good example of the type of things he does. He saw the car and then just flung the door open without considering the distance at all) Walks on things, into things, you g et the idea. He ask me the other day why he was so "clumsy" (we don't tell him this, I don't know where he
got it). We just try to tell him to pay more attention to what he's doing.
There's no moment between the thought and the action to stop and pay attention. It's like telling a kid who's walking from one pasture to the next to mind the fence, meanwhile the child can't see the fence and doesn't even know it's there. I'm not sure what to do about it but I'd suggest you maybe do some reading on ADHD and such, NOT because your son might have it but simply because some books have some good advice for helping a person with impulse control problems. I know I've managed to work out a lot of issues regarding impulse control but for a very long time it meant a LOT of work to stop when impulse struck, a constant internal dialogue that I would not do whatever I was about to do (lots of focus needed there, a distraction would mean all that dialogue was forgotten). Most importantly and probably hardest was learning to recognize those impulses in the first place.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He also is very impulsive or"clumsy" as he calls it. The other day he flung a door open on our truck right into another car so we'll be paying for that.(I know this was just an accident but this is just a good example of the type of things he does. He saw the car and then just flung the door open without considering the distance at all) Walks on things, into things, you g et the idea. He ask me the other day why he was so "clumsy" (we don't tell him this, I don't know where he
got it). We just try to tell him to pay more attention to what he's doing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.As someone who got told this all the time I'll just let you know it's no help at all, extremely frustrating because I simply didn't know how. What did the people telling me this mean? Look harder at what I was supposed to be paying attention to? Just move slower?
There's no moment between the thought and the action to stop and pay attention. It's like telling a kid who's walking from one pasture to the next to mind the fence, meanwhile the child can't see the fence and doesn't even know it's there. I'm not sure what to do about it but I'd suggest you maybe do some reading on ADHD and such, NOT because your son might have it but simply because some books have some good advice for helping a person with impulse control problems. I know I've managed to work out a lot of issues regarding impulse control but for a very long time it meant a LOT of work to stop when impulse struck, a constant internal dialogue that I would not do whatever I was about to do (lots of focus needed there, a distraction would mean all that dialogue was forgotten). Most importantly and probably hardest was learning to recognize those impulses in the first place.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pmteet
Hi
You can talk to an optomitrist (sp) not just the guy you get your
glasses from, but an eye doctor. They can give him exercises to help
with the muscles in his eyes if it is needed. If he does have eye
problems, it could effect his perception.
Or it may just be part of his personality.
My mom use to say I was like a bull in a china shop. lOl I still am
and so im dd12. We laugh about it. If someone (usually me) walks
into a wall, stop sign, or...mmm...a TREE, someone will make a smarty
pants comment (it is how we joke here) She did almost hit a car
once. A brand new JAG!!! Her dad about had a heart attack. LOL We
simply asked her not to open the door without someone there and
explained why. She agreed.
Don't worry about the writing, cutting and such he will pick it up
when it is right for him. If he is getting upset, reassure him. Have
a "crafty box available you can get those cool scissors that cut
shaps (zig-zags, waves ect.), they are inexpensive. If he wants to
read books with little print, you can get him a magnifying glass.
They have a big one you wear around your neck. It has a base that
you prop in your chest so all you have to do is look down. We got one
for my grandma because she can't see as well anymore.
Just wondering, is he a lefty or a righty? If he is a lefty and you
are not, it can be very difficult for him to pick up on things with
you showin him.
Michelle
You can talk to an optomitrist (sp) not just the guy you get your
glasses from, but an eye doctor. They can give him exercises to help
with the muscles in his eyes if it is needed. If he does have eye
problems, it could effect his perception.
Or it may just be part of his personality.
My mom use to say I was like a bull in a china shop. lOl I still am
and so im dd12. We laugh about it. If someone (usually me) walks
into a wall, stop sign, or...mmm...a TREE, someone will make a smarty
pants comment (it is how we joke here) She did almost hit a car
once. A brand new JAG!!! Her dad about had a heart attack. LOL We
simply asked her not to open the door without someone there and
explained why. She agreed.
Don't worry about the writing, cutting and such he will pick it up
when it is right for him. If he is getting upset, reassure him. Have
a "crafty box available you can get those cool scissors that cut
shaps (zig-zags, waves ect.), they are inexpensive. If he wants to
read books with little print, you can get him a magnifying glass.
They have a big one you wear around your neck. It has a base that
you prop in your chest so all you have to do is look down. We got one
for my grandma because she can't see as well anymore.
Just wondering, is he a lefty or a righty? If he is a lefty and you
are not, it can be very difficult for him to pick up on things with
you showin him.
Michelle
Marjorie Kirk
Linda,
You may want to check out some websites on Non-Verbal Leaning Disorders. A
few of the main "symptoms" are poor spatial relations, difficulty tracking
when reading or doing worksheets, etc, impulsivity and poor muscle control,
both large and small (clumsiness and difficulty writing). To have him
evaluated and labeled (or not) is your choice, but reading about it may help
you understand his particular learning style.
Have you read any of Mel Levine's books? Warning--They are not
unschool-friendly! He talks mostly about how to help kids perform well in
school, but he also talks a great deal about how people learn and how kids
with learning differences can be helped to make learning easier. I would
suggest "A Mind at a Time".
This may not go over well on an unschooling list, but for those of us who
struggle right along with a struggling child it's helpful to try to
understand what's going on.
Good Luck,
Marjorie
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Johnson [mailto:linj777@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 9:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] dyslexic?
Hi All. My name is Linda and I've only posted once so far. I have an issue
I could use some feed back on. My oldest, Logan, is eight right now,we
pulled him out of public school at the beginning of last year. He had
already been labeled "learning disabled with possible attention issues". I
had tried the "school at home" and we were both miserable. That's when I
found John Holt's books. Absolutely amazing man, wish I could have met him!
So now we try to follow the unschooling philosophy ,although I'm still new
and probably screw up a lot! Anyway here's the thing, Logan is still having
tons of trouble with writing and small motor skills are really tough for
him(like cutting, spreading peanut butter, etc...) He reverses all the
letters, often having them facing different directions on the same page and
writing is very hard for him. His writing is also very hard to read,even
for him. He's a good reader (reads young adult books) but, avoids books
with small print lik!
e the
plague. I DO NOT make a big deal out out of this, I don't even mention it,
but he does. It does frustrate him that these things seem to come so easy
to his six year old brother and he has to struggle so hard. We did find out
that his eyes don't track well together and he has some vision problems.
His vision is 20/20,it's more the way his eyes work together with his brain,
I guess. We have another appt. next week so I should learn more then. I
found a great website on this HTTP://www.pavevision.org . He also is very
impulsive or"clumsy" as he calls it. The other day he flung a door open on
our truck right into another car so we'll be paying for that.(I know this
was just an accident but this is just a good example of the type of things
he does. He saw the car and then just flung the door open without
considering the distance at all) Walks on things, into things, you get the
idea. He ask me the other day why he was so "clumsy" (we don't tell him
this, I don't know !
where he
got it). We just try to tell him to pay more attention to what he's doing.
It's kind of like he has no spacial perception, which is one of the things
they had said at the school too. Don't get me wrong, he is a great kid. He
is very smart, gets very involved in whatever his interest at the time may
be. The school he was at also suggested that he was also gifted(another
label!) in science and social studies, he had scored way above grade level.
He's extremely lovable,still loves to cuddle! In some ways, when you talk
to him, he comes across older then he is. He likes older kids to hang out
with usually, although thankfully with home schooling this isn't a big deal
anymore. But impulse control can be really hard for him and sometimes this
leads to problems with other kids. We just let him be himself and focus on
the things he does well. This has helped his self-esteem enormously but
sometimes I wonder if I should be doing more! Has anyone heard of vision
training!
helping
these kind of things? From what I've read it seems like it can but if this
is dyslexia or dysgraphia should we be getting him more help? What's the
unschooling perspective on these things? Thanks for reading.
Linda
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You may want to check out some websites on Non-Verbal Leaning Disorders. A
few of the main "symptoms" are poor spatial relations, difficulty tracking
when reading or doing worksheets, etc, impulsivity and poor muscle control,
both large and small (clumsiness and difficulty writing). To have him
evaluated and labeled (or not) is your choice, but reading about it may help
you understand his particular learning style.
Have you read any of Mel Levine's books? Warning--They are not
unschool-friendly! He talks mostly about how to help kids perform well in
school, but he also talks a great deal about how people learn and how kids
with learning differences can be helped to make learning easier. I would
suggest "A Mind at a Time".
This may not go over well on an unschooling list, but for those of us who
struggle right along with a struggling child it's helpful to try to
understand what's going on.
Good Luck,
Marjorie
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Johnson [mailto:linj777@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 9:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] dyslexic?
Hi All. My name is Linda and I've only posted once so far. I have an issue
I could use some feed back on. My oldest, Logan, is eight right now,we
pulled him out of public school at the beginning of last year. He had
already been labeled "learning disabled with possible attention issues". I
had tried the "school at home" and we were both miserable. That's when I
found John Holt's books. Absolutely amazing man, wish I could have met him!
So now we try to follow the unschooling philosophy ,although I'm still new
and probably screw up a lot! Anyway here's the thing, Logan is still having
tons of trouble with writing and small motor skills are really tough for
him(like cutting, spreading peanut butter, etc...) He reverses all the
letters, often having them facing different directions on the same page and
writing is very hard for him. His writing is also very hard to read,even
for him. He's a good reader (reads young adult books) but, avoids books
with small print lik!
e the
plague. I DO NOT make a big deal out out of this, I don't even mention it,
but he does. It does frustrate him that these things seem to come so easy
to his six year old brother and he has to struggle so hard. We did find out
that his eyes don't track well together and he has some vision problems.
His vision is 20/20,it's more the way his eyes work together with his brain,
I guess. We have another appt. next week so I should learn more then. I
found a great website on this HTTP://www.pavevision.org . He also is very
impulsive or"clumsy" as he calls it. The other day he flung a door open on
our truck right into another car so we'll be paying for that.(I know this
was just an accident but this is just a good example of the type of things
he does. He saw the car and then just flung the door open without
considering the distance at all) Walks on things, into things, you get the
idea. He ask me the other day why he was so "clumsy" (we don't tell him
this, I don't know !
where he
got it). We just try to tell him to pay more attention to what he's doing.
It's kind of like he has no spacial perception, which is one of the things
they had said at the school too. Don't get me wrong, he is a great kid. He
is very smart, gets very involved in whatever his interest at the time may
be. The school he was at also suggested that he was also gifted(another
label!) in science and social studies, he had scored way above grade level.
He's extremely lovable,still loves to cuddle! In some ways, when you talk
to him, he comes across older then he is. He likes older kids to hang out
with usually, although thankfully with home schooling this isn't a big deal
anymore. But impulse control can be really hard for him and sometimes this
leads to problems with other kids. We just let him be himself and focus on
the things he does well. This has helped his self-esteem enormously but
sometimes I wonder if I should be doing more! Has anyone heard of vision
training!
helping
these kind of things? From what I've read it seems like it can but if this
is dyslexia or dysgraphia should we be getting him more help? What's the
unschooling perspective on these things? Thanks for reading.
Linda
---------------------------------
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J. Stauffer
<<<<Anyway here's the thing, Logan is still having tons of trouble with
writing and small motor skills are really tough for him(like cutting,
spreading peanut butter, etc...) >>>
My son, at 8, had all of the same things going on with him. He couldn't
read at all, his writing was huge letters that looked like he had been in
pain writing, he was extremely impulsive.
At 10, he reads fairly well but isn't interested in books much, his writing
is much, much, much more comfortable for him, he occassionally slows down to
think before making a decision. <grin>
The brain matures at different times for different kids in different ways.
Julie S.
writing and small motor skills are really tough for him(like cutting,
spreading peanut butter, etc...) >>>
My son, at 8, had all of the same things going on with him. He couldn't
read at all, his writing was huge letters that looked like he had been in
pain writing, he was extremely impulsive.
At 10, he reads fairly well but isn't interested in books much, his writing
is much, much, much more comfortable for him, he occassionally slows down to
think before making a decision. <grin>
The brain matures at different times for different kids in different ways.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Johnson" <linj777@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 8:01 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] dyslexic?
> Hi All. My name is Linda and I've only posted once so far. I have an
issue I could use some feed back on. My oldest, Logan, is eight right
now,we pulled him out of public school at the beginning of last year. He
had already been labeled "learning disabled with possible attention
issues". I had tried the "school at home" and we were both miserable.
That's when I found John Holt's books. Absolutely amazing man, wish I could
have met him! So now we try to follow the unschooling philosophy ,although
I'm still new and probably screw up a lot! Anyway here's the thing, Logan
is still having tons of trouble with writing and small motor skills are
really tough for him(like cutting, spreading peanut butter, etc...) He
reverses all the letters, often having them facing different directions on
the same page and writing is very hard for him. His writing is also very
hard to read,even for him. He's a good reader (reads young adult books)
but, avoids books with small print like the
> plague. I DO NOT make a big deal out out of this, I don't even mention
it, but he does. It does frustrate him that these things seem to come so
easy to his six year old brother and he has to struggle so hard. We did
find out that his eyes don't track well together and he has some vision
problems. His vision is 20/20,it's more the way his eyes work together
with his brain, I guess. We have another appt. next week so I should learn
more then. I found a great website on this HTTP://www.pavevision.org . He
also is very impulsive or"clumsy" as he calls it. The other day he flung a
door open on our truck right into another car so we'll be paying for that.(I
know this was just an accident but this is just a good example of the type
of things he does. He saw the car and then just flung the door open without
considering the distance at all) Walks on things, into things, you get the
idea. He ask me the other day why he was so "clumsy" (we don't tell him
this, I don't know where he
> got it). We just try to tell him to pay more attention to what he's
doing. It's kind of like he has no spacial perception, which is one of the
things they had said at the school too. Don't get me wrong, he is a great
kid. He is very smart, gets very involved in whatever his interest at the
time may be. The school he was at also suggested that he was also
gifted(another label!) in science and social studies, he had scored way
above grade level. He's extremely lovable,still loves to cuddle! In some
ways, when you talk to him, he comes across older then he is. He likes
older kids to hang out with usually, although thankfully with home schooling
this isn't a big deal anymore. But impulse control can be really hard for
him and sometimes this leads to problems with other kids. We just let him
be himself and focus on the things he does well. This has helped his
self-esteem enormously but sometimes I wonder if I should be doing more!
Has anyone heard of vision training helping
> these kind of things? From what I've read it seems like it can but if
this is dyslexia or dysgraphia should we be getting him more help? What's
the unschooling perspective on these things? Thanks for reading.
> Linda
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/20/04 1:33:58 AM, linj777@... writes:
<< Anyway here's the thing, Logan is still having tons of trouble with
writing and small motor skills are really tough for him(like cutting, spreading
peanut butter, etc...) >>
Find him things to do that don't require that right now. Make his sandwiches
for him. Let him pick a new pair of scissors if maybe the ones he has are
too big, or too cheap, or something. Maybe he'd like lefty scissors.
-=-He reverses all the letters, often having them facing different directions
on the same page and writing is very hard for him. -=-
Don't ask him to write. He's not ready.
-=-It does frustrate him that these things seem to come so easy to his six
year old brother and he has to struggle so hard. -=-
Remind him (in private) of things he does well that his brother doesn't.
Remind his brother in private NOT to razz him or brag, but to just be patient
and his older brother will be able to do it too.
-=- We did find out that his eyes don't track well together and he has some
vision problems. His vision is 20/20,it's more the way his eyes work together
with his brain, I guess. We have another appt. next week so I should learn
more then. -=-
I woudn't go. I'd cancel it. Honestly. However his eyes work with his
brain, he'll figure things out if you stop trying to "keep him on track" with
other people. He's on his own track. You just need to maintain that track, and
give him lots of things to see, hear, taste, think about...
Here:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
"Disposable Checklists for Unschoolers."
I would cancel that appointment. You'll be paying money for someone to scare
you and tell him he's not okay. He IS okay, for him. Let him start being
his own whole self instead of being a person who is defined by what he is not.
-=-He also is very impulsive or"clumsy" as he calls it. The other day he
flung a door open on our truck right into another car so we'll be paying for
that.-=-
He's eight years old. Who parked so close to another car? I'd blame the
driver not the kid. You could have opened the door for him if you knew it was
too close. I think everyone has flung a door open and hit another car in a
parking lot. Haven't you?
-=- We just try to tell him to pay more attention to what he's doing. -=-
I would stop doing that too. Every time you say "pay attention" you're
telling him there's something wrong with him, and he will stop listening to you.
Anything you say over 50 times becomes part of the wallpaper. You become the
mom who cried wolf.
-=-Don't get me wrong, he is a great kid. -=-
I'm not getting you wrong. I'm reading every word. And that's even without
sighing and tone of voice. Your son isn't getting you wrong either. You
think he's got some serious lacks and flaws. You're taking him to a professional
to confirm your concerns.
Don't get me wrong, he is a great kid. You can step away from that path if
you want to. It will help your son immensely if you do. And when he is calmer,
you'll be happier. The longer you wait the harder it will be. If you wait
too long, it will be too far gone to fix.
-=-The school he was at also suggested that he was also gifted(another
label!) in science and social studies, he had scored way above grade level. -=-
Pack those things into one corner of your mind and close it off. You're
wasting too much thinking in bad directions. You see him through the lens of
what others have said and what others have feared and warned and hinted. Get
all that noise and label-clutter out of your line of thought and sight. Learn
to see him directly without ANY filter.
It's simple, but not easy.
-=-We just let him be himself and focus on the things he does well. This has
helped his self-esteem enormously but sometimes I wonder if I should be doing
more! -=-
I think you should be doing less, and I think your first statement there is
belied by most of the rest of your post. You are NOT "just letting him be
himself." Not in peace. Not without concerns and negative judgment.
-=-From what I've read it seems like it can but if this is dyslexia or
dysgraphia should we be getting him more help? -=-
No. That help is part and parcel of the assembly-line that is public
education.
Step away from the assembly line, and its technicians and consultants and
managers and advisor and theoreticians. Turn your back and walk away.
Sandra
<< Anyway here's the thing, Logan is still having tons of trouble with
writing and small motor skills are really tough for him(like cutting, spreading
peanut butter, etc...) >>
Find him things to do that don't require that right now. Make his sandwiches
for him. Let him pick a new pair of scissors if maybe the ones he has are
too big, or too cheap, or something. Maybe he'd like lefty scissors.
-=-He reverses all the letters, often having them facing different directions
on the same page and writing is very hard for him. -=-
Don't ask him to write. He's not ready.
-=-It does frustrate him that these things seem to come so easy to his six
year old brother and he has to struggle so hard. -=-
Remind him (in private) of things he does well that his brother doesn't.
Remind his brother in private NOT to razz him or brag, but to just be patient
and his older brother will be able to do it too.
-=- We did find out that his eyes don't track well together and he has some
vision problems. His vision is 20/20,it's more the way his eyes work together
with his brain, I guess. We have another appt. next week so I should learn
more then. -=-
I woudn't go. I'd cancel it. Honestly. However his eyes work with his
brain, he'll figure things out if you stop trying to "keep him on track" with
other people. He's on his own track. You just need to maintain that track, and
give him lots of things to see, hear, taste, think about...
Here:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
"Disposable Checklists for Unschoolers."
I would cancel that appointment. You'll be paying money for someone to scare
you and tell him he's not okay. He IS okay, for him. Let him start being
his own whole self instead of being a person who is defined by what he is not.
-=-He also is very impulsive or"clumsy" as he calls it. The other day he
flung a door open on our truck right into another car so we'll be paying for
that.-=-
He's eight years old. Who parked so close to another car? I'd blame the
driver not the kid. You could have opened the door for him if you knew it was
too close. I think everyone has flung a door open and hit another car in a
parking lot. Haven't you?
-=- We just try to tell him to pay more attention to what he's doing. -=-
I would stop doing that too. Every time you say "pay attention" you're
telling him there's something wrong with him, and he will stop listening to you.
Anything you say over 50 times becomes part of the wallpaper. You become the
mom who cried wolf.
-=-Don't get me wrong, he is a great kid. -=-
I'm not getting you wrong. I'm reading every word. And that's even without
sighing and tone of voice. Your son isn't getting you wrong either. You
think he's got some serious lacks and flaws. You're taking him to a professional
to confirm your concerns.
Don't get me wrong, he is a great kid. You can step away from that path if
you want to. It will help your son immensely if you do. And when he is calmer,
you'll be happier. The longer you wait the harder it will be. If you wait
too long, it will be too far gone to fix.
-=-The school he was at also suggested that he was also gifted(another
label!) in science and social studies, he had scored way above grade level. -=-
Pack those things into one corner of your mind and close it off. You're
wasting too much thinking in bad directions. You see him through the lens of
what others have said and what others have feared and warned and hinted. Get
all that noise and label-clutter out of your line of thought and sight. Learn
to see him directly without ANY filter.
It's simple, but not easy.
-=-We just let him be himself and focus on the things he does well. This has
helped his self-esteem enormously but sometimes I wonder if I should be doing
more! -=-
I think you should be doing less, and I think your first statement there is
belied by most of the rest of your post. You are NOT "just letting him be
himself." Not in peace. Not without concerns and negative judgment.
-=-From what I've read it seems like it can but if this is dyslexia or
dysgraphia should we be getting him more help? -=-
No. That help is part and parcel of the assembly-line that is public
education.
Step away from the assembly line, and its technicians and consultants and
managers and advisor and theoreticians. Turn your back and walk away.
Sandra
nellebelle
I suspect my 8yod would have been diagnosed dyslexic if she went to school.
Thankfully, she doesn't go to school. I don't doubt that she 'sees' things
differently than I do.
She has a way with drawings and sculpture that is very appealing. When I
read aloud to her, she either looks at the pictures or busies herself
playing while listening. In the past week, she has begun to read some new
words on signs and other places. I've tried very hard to assure her that
reading will come easily to her when she is ready and that those who
pressure her about reading are brainwashed by the idea that everyone should
know how to read by age 6. I tell her about unschooling kids I've read
about who don't learn to read until 10 or 12 or later, and how once a person
knows how to read, it doesn't matter how old they were when they learned.
Although she sometimes get frustrated that she can't yet read, she is
usually too busy doing other things to worry about it. Author/Illustrator
Patricia Pollacio didn't read until she was 10. One of her books tells her
story. http://www.patriciapolacco.com/ "Thank You, Mr. Falker"
how a letter faces. A picture of a dog is a dog whether facing left or
right. For young writers, remembering the correct alignment of b,d,p, and q
can be quite confusing. However, my dd did do some mirror image writing,
unintentionally. Isn't that fascinating? Obviously she knew how to make
the letters, but how amazing that they were perfectly reversed. I don't
know that I could do that if I tried!
older are hard for the younger and vice versa. Some things are quite easy
for the younger and not for the older. That's how humans are.
and banged my car door into a cement post. Then I was dumb enough to barely
squeeze through the door rather than just moving the car first. Gave the
kids a chuckle anyway.
Mary Ellen
Thankfully, she doesn't go to school. I don't doubt that she 'sees' things
differently than I do.
She has a way with drawings and sculpture that is very appealing. When I
read aloud to her, she either looks at the pictures or busies herself
playing while listening. In the past week, she has begun to read some new
words on signs and other places. I've tried very hard to assure her that
reading will come easily to her when she is ready and that those who
pressure her about reading are brainwashed by the idea that everyone should
know how to read by age 6. I tell her about unschooling kids I've read
about who don't learn to read until 10 or 12 or later, and how once a person
knows how to read, it doesn't matter how old they were when they learned.
Although she sometimes get frustrated that she can't yet read, she is
usually too busy doing other things to worry about it. Author/Illustrator
Patricia Pollacio didn't read until she was 10. One of her books tells her
story. http://www.patriciapolacco.com/ "Thank You, Mr. Falker"
> -=-He reverses all the letters, often having them facing differentdirections
> on the same page and writing is very hard for him. -=->>>>Didn't John Holt write about kids at first not realizing the importance of
how a letter faces. A picture of a dog is a dog whether facing left or
right. For young writers, remembering the correct alignment of b,d,p, and q
can be quite confusing. However, my dd did do some mirror image writing,
unintentionally. Isn't that fascinating? Obviously she knew how to make
the letters, but how amazing that they were perfectly reversed. I don't
know that I could do that if I tried!
> -=-It does frustrate him that these things seem to come so easy to his sixMy two dd have a variety of skill levels. Some things that are easy for the
> year old brother and he has to struggle so hard. -=->>>>
older are hard for the younger and vice versa. Some things are quite easy
for the younger and not for the older. That's how humans are.
> -=-He also is very impulsive or"clumsy" as he calls it. The other day hefor
> flung a door open on our truck right into another car so we'll be paying
> that.-=->>>I did that just this week at the gas station. Parked in front of the pump
and banged my car door into a cement post. Then I was dumb enough to barely
squeeze through the door rather than just moving the car first. Gave the
kids a chuckle anyway.
Mary Ellen
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
from another education professional if you want, but probably what makes it
useful is that I'm mom to an unschooled eight-year-old boy who your description
fits --
A brain that runs ahead of his body, loves to read, and compose
stories, yet struggles with mechanically forming the letters on paper. Even at 8, he
isn't interested in riding a bicycle or rollerblading, it seems because he's
not comfortable relying on his balance and sense of himself in physical space.
He's recently decided "to be a dancer" and is taking classes; it's clear to
see that he moves with less control (but more enthusiasm!) than the younger,
smaller, mainly female dancers in his beginning group.
The difference is this: it honestly never occurred to me that he has a
learning problem or disability. He is a wonderful learner and often seems to
be developing in ten directions at once. His dance teacher did suggest he
should spend more time at the playground, swinging on bars and such, because she
thought he might be too cerebral and inclined to stay indoors. I smiled and
said he we'd go whenever he wanted, which is exactly how long the dance classes
would continue, no more and no less. :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm not getting you wrong. I'm reading every word. And that's evenI second all of Sandra's advice on this. You can consider it as coming
> without
> sighing and tone of voice. Your son isn't getting you wrong either. You
> think he's got some serious lacks and flaws. You're taking him to a
> professional
> to confirm your concerns.
>
> Don't get me wrong, he is a great kid. You can step away from that path if
> you want to. It will help your son immensely if you do. And when he is
> calmer,
> you'll be happier. The longer you wait the harder it will be. If you wait
>
> too long, it will be too far gone to fix.
>
> -=-The school he was at also suggested that he was also gifted(another
> label!) in science and social studies, he had scored way above grade level.
> -=-
>
> Pack those things into one corner of your mind and close it off. You're
> wasting too much thinking in bad directions. You see him through the lens
> of
> what others have said and what others have feared and warned and hinted.
> Get
> all that noise and label-clutter out of your line of thought and sight.
> Learn
> to see him directly without ANY filter.
>
> It's simple, but not easy.
>
> -=-We just let him be himself and focus on the things he does well. This
> has
> helped his self-esteem enormously but sometimes I wonder if I should be
> doing
> more! -=-
>
> I think you should be doing less, and I think your first statement there is
> belied by most of the rest of your post. You are NOT "just letting him be
> himself." Not in peace. Not without concerns and negative judgment.
>
> -=-From what I've read it seems like it can but if this is dyslexia or
> dysgraphia should we be getting him more help? -=-
>
> No. That help is part and parcel of the assembly-line that is public
> education.
>
> Step away from the assembly line, and its technicians and consultants and
> managers and advisor and theoreticians. Turn your back and walk away.
>
> Sandra
>
from another education professional if you want, but probably what makes it
useful is that I'm mom to an unschooled eight-year-old boy who your description
fits --
A brain that runs ahead of his body, loves to read, and compose
stories, yet struggles with mechanically forming the letters on paper. Even at 8, he
isn't interested in riding a bicycle or rollerblading, it seems because he's
not comfortable relying on his balance and sense of himself in physical space.
He's recently decided "to be a dancer" and is taking classes; it's clear to
see that he moves with less control (but more enthusiasm!) than the younger,
smaller, mainly female dancers in his beginning group.
The difference is this: it honestly never occurred to me that he has a
learning problem or disability. He is a wonderful learner and often seems to
be developing in ten directions at once. His dance teacher did suggest he
should spend more time at the playground, swinging on bars and such, because she
thought he might be too cerebral and inclined to stay indoors. I smiled and
said he we'd go whenever he wanted, which is exactly how long the dance classes
would continue, no more and no less. :) JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
A book I found helpful was The Out of Sync Child, Carol Stock Kranowitz. Not so much to find a label for your child, but it gave me some insight to how differently some of us are wired, and some ideas for how to accommodate those differences so the missing aspects can be caught up.
Andy is great at riding a bike but still bumps into things, has trouble pouring without spilling, and sometimes has no concept of personal physical space. He's the kind of kid who will tackle you for a hug, but can't tolerate being kissed. I was the most uncoordinated child I knew, and it kept me from doing all kinds of things I would have loved to try. I wish someone had recognized that I wasn't wired like my very agile younger brother & sister. It's not about being wrong or deficient in some way, just figuring out what your child needs and making it available to him so he can grow in his own way.
Syl
There's no moment between the thought and the action to stop and pay attention. It's like telling a kid who's walking from one pasture to the next to mind the fence, meanwhile the child can't see the fence and doesn't even know it's there. I'm not sure what to do about it but I'd suggest you maybe do some reading on ADHD and such,
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andy is great at riding a bike but still bumps into things, has trouble pouring without spilling, and sometimes has no concept of personal physical space. He's the kind of kid who will tackle you for a hug, but can't tolerate being kissed. I was the most uncoordinated child I knew, and it kept me from doing all kinds of things I would have loved to try. I wish someone had recognized that I wasn't wired like my very agile younger brother & sister. It's not about being wrong or deficient in some way, just figuring out what your child needs and making it available to him so he can grow in his own way.
Syl
There's no moment between the thought and the action to stop and pay attention. It's like telling a kid who's walking from one pasture to the next to mind the fence, meanwhile the child can't see the fence and doesn't even know it's there. I'm not sure what to do about it but I'd suggest you maybe do some reading on ADHD and such,
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Clevenger
From: Linda Johnson <linj777@y...>
I actually just finished writing an article about our experiences with deciding to pursue vision therapy and how we thought about that interacting with our family's unschooling lifestyle. Making the decision was a journey that required a lot of thought on our part - about what the implications could be, both positive and negative. So far, for our son, the decision seems to have been unilaterally positive. Since making this decision, I've met several adults who struggled with vision issues until they got therapy as an adult. All of them said without a doubt that they'd wished that they'd had it available to them as children, since they've gone through decades of seeing double, running into walls, not being able to read well, being turned down for pilot's licenses, and other issues where their vision held them back from the things that they wanted to do in life.
If you feel like discussing our experiences personally, feel free to email me: tri_mom@... . It has really been such a positive thing in our son's life to have done this, and it has interfered not at all with his usual unschooling enthusiasm for life.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Anyway here's the thing, Logan is still having tons of trouble with writing andalso very hard to read,even for him. He's a good reader (reads young adult
>small motor skills are really tough for him(like cutting, spreading peanut
>butter, etc...) He reverses all the letters, often having them facing different
>directions on the same page and writing is very hard for him. His writing is
>books) but, avoids books with small print like theHi Linda, and welcome to the list. My son will be 8 this summer and we've always unschooled. He sounds remarkably similar to your son, and actually is in the middle of vision therapy right now. I have to say that I *strongly* disagree with the advice to cancel the appointment with the vision therapist. If something physical on a child doesn't work the way it's supposed to (let's say, for instance, that your child's legs wouldn't coordinate so that he couldn't walk), I can't imagine thinking that it would be a good idea to just cancel any appointments with specialists and tell him it's just fine to drag himself around on his arms until things come together in his brain so that his legs work together the way they're supposed to. If a child's eyes don't work in tandem, more than just reading is at stake. Their whole visual perception of the world can be skewed. They have no depth perception, they run into walls, doors, they stub and break toes, they crash bicycles and scooters (or give up in frustration before they can't ride them). IMHO, there's no reason to let a child hobble on in a world that feels difficult and frustrating to them when something as painless and simple as vision therapy can make everything work well and easily. Vision therapists are masters at making therapy fun for the kids. Ours sends my son home with Pokemon-themed exercises and "Where's Waldo" books. They change his exercises up every week and he is amazed and happy at how much easier not only reading, but *all of life* is for him now that he's been doing therapy for a couple of months. Just this week, he has discovered that he can now make his hand and eye do what his brain imagines and he can draw Pokemon characters. He was actually shouting out loud "Mom, I can draw a straight line! Mom, a straight line!!!" Please note, I've never asked him to draw a straight line in his life, but he really wants to draw Pokemon characters and before the vision therapy, he couldn't make his hand and eyes work together to draw what he was seeing in his head.
>plague. I DO NOT make a big deal out out of this, I don't even mention it, but
>he does. It does frustrate him that these things seem to come so easy to his
>six year old brother and he has to struggle so hard. We did find out that his
>eyes don't track well together and he has some vision problems. His vision is
>20/20,it's more the way his eyes work together with his brain, I guess. We have
>another appt. next week so I should learn more then.
>"He also is very impulsive or"clumsy" as heHe knows. I knew it as a kid too. I sure wish I knew then that there was a relatively easy solution for it. I've broken so many toes and banged my head into things so many times I can't count. My parents were baffled at why I was so clumsy. It's wonderful to watch my son's body come together as the brain-vision-body connection is strengthened through therapy. He can actually run in a straight line now (he used to go semi-sideways, one reason he always ran into things or into other people), he can skip and hop (and no, for those who might be wondering, we never asked him to do those either, but he knew that other kids can do things that he can't, and he's ecstatic now that he can join in riding scooters or jumping rope).
>calls it. The other day he flung a door open on our truck right into another
>car so we'll be paying for that.(I know this was just an accident but this is
>just a good example of the type of things he does. He saw the car and then just
>flung the door open without considering the distance at all) Walks on things,
>into things, you get the idea. He ask me the other day why he was so "clumsy"
>(we don't tell him this, I don't know where he
>got it)."
>Don't get me wrong, he is a great kid. He is veryWell, that's the great thing about unschooling, you just don't have to worry about all those labels. It's very freeing. But still, a child can face problems, with or without a label. And helping them through challenges that confront them is part of being an unschooling parent, to me. Whether it's getting them to the library and helping them find a book or video about a subject that they're interested in, or helping them find a way to make their eyes work in a coordinated pair, I guess I just don't see it as all that different. With unschooling, they can just be who and what they are, and we can help them with what they might need help with, and not have to bother about the label that someone might come up with that might or might not fit all or part of who they are.
>smart, gets very involved in whatever his interest at the time may be. The
>school he was at also suggested that he was also gifted(another label!)
> He likes older kids to hang out with usually, althoughI think every unschooler will probably have a different perspective on this. The important thing, IMHO is to find what works, really works, for you and your child. It's more important than a label, more important even than the label of "unschooler". To me, to my son, to our family, vision therapy has worked well within an unschooling perspective. It's something that my son noticed, something that he asked for help with, and thankfully something that we found a great resource that was able to give him that help. Our vision therapist is actually a neighbor, a wonderful woman that our son was already comfortable with. The therapists go out of their way to find fun and engaging activities for him to do, both at the office visits and at home. We're only 10 weeks into a 30-week course of therapy, but we had a midway checkup yesterday and his vision is so vastly improved, it's amazing. Things that were blurry to him before are now clear. Things that he wanted his body to do before, he can now do. Every day almost there is something new that he discovers that he can do, and he's so excited about it, it's almost like when he was 2 years old again. Not having been in school, he didn't have to go through any comparison with his age peers, but all the same he had started noticing that there were things *he* wanted to do that he couldn't, and it wasn't getting any better. Just this week, he discovered he could read the tiny print on Pokemon cards, could draw straight lines, could ride a scooter without tipping sideways. Just leaps and bounds here.
>thankfully with home schooling this isn't a big deal anymore. But impulse
>control can be really hard for him and sometimes this leads to problems with
>other kids. We just let him be himself and focus on the things he does well.
>This has helped his self-esteem enormously but sometimes I wonder if I should be
>doing more! Has anyone heard of vision training helping
>these kind of things? From what I've read it seems like it can but if this is
>dyslexia or dysgraphia should we be getting him more help? What's the
>unschooling perspective on these things? Thanks for reading.
>Linda
I actually just finished writing an article about our experiences with deciding to pursue vision therapy and how we thought about that interacting with our family's unschooling lifestyle. Making the decision was a journey that required a lot of thought on our part - about what the implications could be, both positive and negative. So far, for our son, the decision seems to have been unilaterally positive. Since making this decision, I've met several adults who struggled with vision issues until they got therapy as an adult. All of them said without a doubt that they'd wished that they'd had it available to them as children, since they've gone through decades of seeing double, running into walls, not being able to read well, being turned down for pilot's licenses, and other issues where their vision held them back from the things that they wanted to do in life.
If you feel like discussing our experiences personally, feel free to email me: tri_mom@... . It has really been such a positive thing in our son's life to have done this, and it has interfered not at all with his usual unschooling enthusiasm for life.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_clevengers
Sandra Dodd writes:
okay or scared him in any way. They tested his eyes, which obviously
didn't work well enough to focus or to track an object or text. He
already knew that, that's why he asked me for help. He knew things
were blurry, he knew he couldn't keep focused on things, he knew his
body was off-balance. The opthamologist just confirmed it with the
tests. In a way, it was very much a relief for our son to know he
wasn't just imagining this stuff, that his eyes really were working
quite differently. He's more than happy that they're working better
now. When you can see the world and it doesn't look blurry or
doubled, when you can run towards your mom and not crash into her
because you thought she was 5 feet further away, when you don't
repeatedly run into the doorways in your house, that's not a
frightening thing, that's a wonderful thing.
could not walk. What if there was a very simple therapy that would
let that child walk within a few months?? Would it be a good idea to
tell that child that they were just fine the way they were?
Wouldn't the child know, without anyone telling them, that there were
things that they could not do that other kids could do, that other
kids were running and jumping while they were sitting in a
wheelchair? Would that be just okay, for that child? Somehow, I don't
think so. And I think the situation is directly analagous. My son
knew that things weren't working right for him, that there were
things *he* wanted to do that he could not. Who am I to tell him that
he is just okay, for him?? That he should just live with something
that was bothering him on a daily basis that could be easily changed?
So many of your posts Sandra are wonderful and thought-inspiring. I
do (respectfully) think though that your advice here is completely
wrong. Just my opinion, but I feel strongly about this. Having eyes
that don't work together is not the same as being a late reader or
having different interests, or something like that. It's like being
crippled in your own body, and I can't see any reason why a child
should be crippled if they can (metaphorically) walk and run.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
>I would cancel that appointment.BTW, no one at our vision therapists office has told our son he's not
>You'll be paying money for someone to scare
>you and tell him he's not okay.
okay or scared him in any way. They tested his eyes, which obviously
didn't work well enough to focus or to track an object or text. He
already knew that, that's why he asked me for help. He knew things
were blurry, he knew he couldn't keep focused on things, he knew his
body was off-balance. The opthamologist just confirmed it with the
tests. In a way, it was very much a relief for our son to know he
wasn't just imagining this stuff, that his eyes really were working
quite differently. He's more than happy that they're working better
now. When you can see the world and it doesn't look blurry or
doubled, when you can run towards your mom and not crash into her
because you thought she was 5 feet further away, when you don't
repeatedly run into the doorways in your house, that's not a
frightening thing, that's a wonderful thing.
>He IS okay, for him.I have to wonder if you would say this to the parent of a child who
could not walk. What if there was a very simple therapy that would
let that child walk within a few months?? Would it be a good idea to
tell that child that they were just fine the way they were?
Wouldn't the child know, without anyone telling them, that there were
things that they could not do that other kids could do, that other
kids were running and jumping while they were sitting in a
wheelchair? Would that be just okay, for that child? Somehow, I don't
think so. And I think the situation is directly analagous. My son
knew that things weren't working right for him, that there were
things *he* wanted to do that he could not. Who am I to tell him that
he is just okay, for him?? That he should just live with something
that was bothering him on a daily basis that could be easily changed?
So many of your posts Sandra are wonderful and thought-inspiring. I
do (respectfully) think though that your advice here is completely
wrong. Just my opinion, but I feel strongly about this. Having eyes
that don't work together is not the same as being a late reader or
having different interests, or something like that. It's like being
crippled in your own body, and I can't see any reason why a child
should be crippled if they can (metaphorically) walk and run.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/21/04 4:53:47 PM, tri_mom@... writes:
<< If something physical on a child doesn't work the way it's supposed to
(let's say, for instance, that your child's legs wouldn't coordinate so that he
couldn't walk), I can't imagine thinking that it would be a good idea to just
cancel any appointments with specialists and tell him it's just fine to drag
himself around on his arms until things come together in his brain so that his
legs work together the way they're supposed to. >>
If a child can't walk that's pretty clear. People don't take kids to
physical therapy because they're not as good at ballet as others their age.
In a school situation where there is special ed money to be claimed, a child
who reads late has a disability. Maybe, if the school's lucky, they can
identify two or three! And experts in the world are geared toward identifying
disabilities that schools want. And experts tend toward suggesting that
homeschooling isn't good for children with special needs.
Not reading at eight isn't cause for consultation with experts.
Being physically uncoordinated isn't cause for consultation with experts.
Opening a car door and hitting another car in a parking lot is absolutely and
certainly not cause for consultaton with experts. It used to be cause for a
line of chrome down the middle of every car's door. Now with insurance
companies running things, the line of chrome is out, the claims for Much Bodywork
are in.
It might be a serious vision problem.
What are the odds?
Dyslexia is not "a serious vision problem."
It might be cheaper and better for the parents to spend an hour researching
what Howard Gardner and his proponents have written about spatial and
kinesthetic intelligences and get some ideas there.
Sandra
Sandra
<< If something physical on a child doesn't work the way it's supposed to
(let's say, for instance, that your child's legs wouldn't coordinate so that he
couldn't walk), I can't imagine thinking that it would be a good idea to just
cancel any appointments with specialists and tell him it's just fine to drag
himself around on his arms until things come together in his brain so that his
legs work together the way they're supposed to. >>
If a child can't walk that's pretty clear. People don't take kids to
physical therapy because they're not as good at ballet as others their age.
In a school situation where there is special ed money to be claimed, a child
who reads late has a disability. Maybe, if the school's lucky, they can
identify two or three! And experts in the world are geared toward identifying
disabilities that schools want. And experts tend toward suggesting that
homeschooling isn't good for children with special needs.
Not reading at eight isn't cause for consultation with experts.
Being physically uncoordinated isn't cause for consultation with experts.
Opening a car door and hitting another car in a parking lot is absolutely and
certainly not cause for consultaton with experts. It used to be cause for a
line of chrome down the middle of every car's door. Now with insurance
companies running things, the line of chrome is out, the claims for Much Bodywork
are in.
It might be a serious vision problem.
What are the odds?
Dyslexia is not "a serious vision problem."
It might be cheaper and better for the parents to spend an hour researching
what Howard Gardner and his proponents have written about spatial and
kinesthetic intelligences and get some ideas there.
Sandra
Sandra
linj777
-Hi All,
I have listened to all the advice here and really put some
thought into everything and I still have to agree with Robin. Logan
originally asked me to take him to the "eye docter"(his words)
because things were "blurry." I thought that he might need glasses
so of course I took him in. The optomitrist told me about this, I
had no idea that some of the things he struggled with could be
caused by vision! His eyes don't work together correctly, which is
a physical problem. No one has "made" Logan write or read since we
started unschooling, he enjoys these things. It's just hard for him
because if he reads too long he gets a head ache or dizzy. I don't
mind reading to him but this frustrated him quite a bit. Also it
bugs him when the thoughts in his head don't come out right on paper.
Maybe I
didn't express myself well enough on my post. Of course bumping
that car doesn't mean there's a problem! It was just an accident,
we knew that. I was just trying to explain that he often doesn't
seem to be aware of where he is in relation to other things. I'm
new at this, dyslexia is the school term for this kind of thing but
it's one people understand. I was trying to give a good discription
to people who don't know him. I pulled him out of school when they
started the label game. I was just wondering if other parents had
been through this or knew more about it. Thanks again to everyone
for their advice, the comments about not telling him to pay
attention
anymore really hit home. That definately doesn't help him and I'm
glad to be called on it.
Linda
-- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
I have listened to all the advice here and really put some
thought into everything and I still have to agree with Robin. Logan
originally asked me to take him to the "eye docter"(his words)
because things were "blurry." I thought that he might need glasses
so of course I took him in. The optomitrist told me about this, I
had no idea that some of the things he struggled with could be
caused by vision! His eyes don't work together correctly, which is
a physical problem. No one has "made" Logan write or read since we
started unschooling, he enjoys these things. It's just hard for him
because if he reads too long he gets a head ache or dizzy. I don't
mind reading to him but this frustrated him quite a bit. Also it
bugs him when the thoughts in his head don't come out right on paper.
Maybe I
didn't express myself well enough on my post. Of course bumping
that car doesn't mean there's a problem! It was just an accident,
we knew that. I was just trying to explain that he often doesn't
seem to be aware of where he is in relation to other things. I'm
new at this, dyslexia is the school term for this kind of thing but
it's one people understand. I was trying to give a good discription
to people who don't know him. I pulled him out of school when they
started the label game. I was just wondering if other parents had
been through this or knew more about it. Thanks again to everyone
for their advice, the comments about not telling him to pay
attention
anymore really hit home. That definately doesn't help him and I'm
glad to be called on it.
Linda
-- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>supposed to
> In a message dated 5/21/04 4:53:47 PM, tri_mom@c... writes:
>
> << If something physical on a child doesn't work the way it's
> (let's say, for instance, that your child's legs wouldn'tcoordinate so that he
> couldn't walk), I can't imagine thinking that it would be a goodidea to just
> cancel any appointments with specialists and tell him it's justfine to drag
> himself around on his arms until things come together in his brainso that his
> legs work together the way they're supposed to. >>to
>
> If a child can't walk that's pretty clear. People don't take kids
> physical therapy because they're not as good at ballet as otherstheir age.
>claimed, a child
> In a school situation where there is special ed money to be
> who reads late has a disability. Maybe, if the school's lucky,they can
> identify two or three! And experts in the world are geared towardidentifying
> disabilities that schools want. And experts tend towardsuggesting that
> homeschooling isn't good for children with special needs.experts.
>
> Not reading at eight isn't cause for consultation with experts.
> Being physically uncoordinated isn't cause for consultation with
> Opening a car door and hitting another car in a parking lot isabsolutely and
> certainly not cause for consultaton with experts. It used to because for a
> line of chrome down the middle of every car's door. Now withinsurance
> companies running things, the line of chrome is out, the claimsfor Much Bodywork
> are in.researching
>
> It might be a serious vision problem.
> What are the odds?
> Dyslexia is not "a serious vision problem."
>
> It might be cheaper and better for the parents to spend an hour
> what Howard Gardner and his proponents have written about spatialand
> kinesthetic intelligences and get some ideas there.
>
> Sandra
>
> Sandra
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
who posted, and not for my son, who has never been in school. Apples
and oranges.
schools aren't all that experienced with vision therapy, and the
therapists often have to fight like heck to get kids the help they
need with their vision. Schools mainly label kids with vision
problems as having "attention deficits" and try to go the medication
route, which does no good. Lots of the literature out there on vision
therapy talks about the struggles that vision therapists have in
trying to help kids in school situations. My experience has been that
the vision therapists we've met have made a career out of helping
kids and adults see better, and that's what makes these people tick.
They've all been super sweet.
all with the same paintbrush. Our vision therapists have been more
than supportive of homeschooling. Mostly, they see kids with vision
problems who have been bulldozed by the school system and whose self-
esteem is poor as a result. They have had nothing but positive
comments about the fact that our son is homeschooled. Just yesterday
at his appointment, our therapist pulled my husband aside and told
him what a joy it is to work with our son, and what a wonderful kid
he is. Our other therapist lives 3 doors down from us. Her husband
teaches higher math to homeschooled kids who want it. He says he
loves homeschoolers because they come to him eager to learn and know,
and it's a mile different than teaching kids who don't care. All of
our therapists read the front-page article on unschooling that
featured our family, so they not only know we homeschool, but they
know that we unschool. They had nothing but good things to say about
the article.
I think it's wrong to tell another parent to avoid a specialist who
might help their child, just based on the (often mistaken) belief
that all specialists are label-loving homeschool-haters. Our
experience has been the opposite.
Yes, that's true. Not reading at eight because you don't want to is
certainly not a cause for consultation with experts. Being a little
uncoordinated isn't either. But wanting to read at eight and not
being able to because you see double and the words are blurry *is*,
IMHO. And walking into things because you don't see that they are
there *is*. I can't imagine sentencing my kid to a life of blurry
vision because I didn't want him to see an expert. Likewise, although
he hasn't been to an allopathic doctor in years, if he breaks his arm
we'll be going to the doctor's office to set it. There are times and
places for everything, and when something doesn't work right on a
child's body, I think the time and place has come to have some help
with it.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
> If a child can't walk that's pretty clear.If a child can't see, that's pretty clear too.
> In a school situation where there is special ed money to beclaimed, a child
> who reads late has a disability.But this isn't a school situation, not for Linda, the original mom
who posted, and not for my son, who has never been in school. Apples
and oranges.
> And experts in the world are geared toward identifyingThat hasn't been my experience with Vision Therapists. In fact, the
> disabilities that schools want.
schools aren't all that experienced with vision therapy, and the
therapists often have to fight like heck to get kids the help they
need with their vision. Schools mainly label kids with vision
problems as having "attention deficits" and try to go the medication
route, which does no good. Lots of the literature out there on vision
therapy talks about the struggles that vision therapists have in
trying to help kids in school situations. My experience has been that
the vision therapists we've met have made a career out of helping
kids and adults see better, and that's what makes these people tick.
They've all been super sweet.
>And experts tend toward suggesting thatReally? I think it's not a good idea to paint people you don't know
> homeschooling isn't good for children with special needs.
all with the same paintbrush. Our vision therapists have been more
than supportive of homeschooling. Mostly, they see kids with vision
problems who have been bulldozed by the school system and whose self-
esteem is poor as a result. They have had nothing but positive
comments about the fact that our son is homeschooled. Just yesterday
at his appointment, our therapist pulled my husband aside and told
him what a joy it is to work with our son, and what a wonderful kid
he is. Our other therapist lives 3 doors down from us. Her husband
teaches higher math to homeschooled kids who want it. He says he
loves homeschoolers because they come to him eager to learn and know,
and it's a mile different than teaching kids who don't care. All of
our therapists read the front-page article on unschooling that
featured our family, so they not only know we homeschool, but they
know that we unschool. They had nothing but good things to say about
the article.
I think it's wrong to tell another parent to avoid a specialist who
might help their child, just based on the (often mistaken) belief
that all specialists are label-loving homeschool-haters. Our
experience has been the opposite.
> Not reading at eight isn't cause for consultation with experts.experts.
> Being physically uncoordinated isn't cause for consultation with
Yes, that's true. Not reading at eight because you don't want to is
certainly not a cause for consultation with experts. Being a little
uncoordinated isn't either. But wanting to read at eight and not
being able to because you see double and the words are blurry *is*,
IMHO. And walking into things because you don't see that they are
there *is*. I can't imagine sentencing my kid to a life of blurry
vision because I didn't want him to see an expert. Likewise, although
he hasn't been to an allopathic doctor in years, if he breaks his arm
we'll be going to the doctor's office to set it. There are times and
places for everything, and when something doesn't work right on a
child's body, I think the time and place has come to have some help
with it.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
Sylvia Toyama
And experts tend toward suggesting that homeschooling isn't good for children with special needs.
****
I can see where this would be true because they are dedicated folks who want to see kids get the help they need. So often, it seems, folks think the best way to get any kind of special help is thru the public schools, because after all it's free and the 'experts' have been chosen by the school. For people who think school is a good place and that the education folks have a child's best interest at heart don't seem to understand why anyone would decline a free service offered by the local free schools.
I remember when Will was in public school and I agreed to have him tested for learning disabilities. When it was determined he was 'normal' I actually had teachers encourage me to challenge the findings and insist on more testing until they could find his problems. These people genuinely believed the only way to help my son was to keep fighting for more services. Sure, some of that may have been to make their own jobs easier (since it would have gotten him out of their classroom for a part of each day) but a few were sincerely convinced it would help Will. They were just baffled when I was happy with the finding that he had no disabilities and chose not to fight for services.
I think there is a mindset among some specialists and therapists that more intervention is better -- always. And that the only reason parents would declind more intervention is to save money, or because they can't afford the best for their child. They see the public school programs as a way to meet that child's need, and don't understand a parent who doesn't want the state's involvement.
I agree that vision problems are about more than one's ability to read, and when they're causing a child problems (even if it's just that he wants to read but can't) treatment should be sought. I'm also not surprised when I hear that a therapist or expert strongly pushed public school and discouraged homeschool. There seems to be a perception that parents who don't avail themselves of every program are either negligent or in denial about their child's challenges. That, and it devalues everything they've worked for to have a parent tell them aren't needed after all.
Syl
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
****
I can see where this would be true because they are dedicated folks who want to see kids get the help they need. So often, it seems, folks think the best way to get any kind of special help is thru the public schools, because after all it's free and the 'experts' have been chosen by the school. For people who think school is a good place and that the education folks have a child's best interest at heart don't seem to understand why anyone would decline a free service offered by the local free schools.
I remember when Will was in public school and I agreed to have him tested for learning disabilities. When it was determined he was 'normal' I actually had teachers encourage me to challenge the findings and insist on more testing until they could find his problems. These people genuinely believed the only way to help my son was to keep fighting for more services. Sure, some of that may have been to make their own jobs easier (since it would have gotten him out of their classroom for a part of each day) but a few were sincerely convinced it would help Will. They were just baffled when I was happy with the finding that he had no disabilities and chose not to fight for services.
I think there is a mindset among some specialists and therapists that more intervention is better -- always. And that the only reason parents would declind more intervention is to save money, or because they can't afford the best for their child. They see the public school programs as a way to meet that child's need, and don't understand a parent who doesn't want the state's involvement.
I agree that vision problems are about more than one's ability to read, and when they're causing a child problems (even if it's just that he wants to read but can't) treatment should be sought. I'm also not surprised when I hear that a therapist or expert strongly pushed public school and discouraged homeschool. There seems to be a perception that parents who don't avail themselves of every program are either negligent or in denial about their child's challenges. That, and it devalues everything they've worked for to have a parent tell them aren't needed after all.
Syl
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/22/04 8:02:10 AM, tri_mom@... writes:
<< >And experts tend toward suggesting that
all with the same paintbrush. >>
Really.
"Tend toward" doesn't paint any individual.
When unschoolers need pschiatric or legal some of them just about FREAK
because it's going to be hard for them to find professionals who don't just assume
that some of the problem is that they're not in school, or that being in
school wouldn't be better for a child with special needs.
-=-Our vision therapists have been more
than supportive of homeschooling. Mostly, they see kids with vision
problems who have been bulldozed by the school system and whose self-
esteem is poor as a result. -=-
What perentage of all the experts in the world are your vision therapists?
Your exception doesn't disprove my generality.
-=-I think it's wrong to tell another parent to avoid a specialist who
might help their child, just based on the (often mistaken) belief
that all specialists are label-loving homeschool-haters. Our
experience has been the opposite.-=-
I didn't do that.
From the post that was sent, the mother seemed to be generalizing all the
child's traits as dyslexia. For one thing, dyslexic kids can and DO figure out
how to deal with their own perceptions. Unschoolers don't need that label.
And from the description of the problem in that one first post, it neither
seemed like dyslexia NOR like a problem that needed professional help.
When new/prospective unschoolers come along and say "after this last IEP
meeting, and a consultation with a child psychologist and wions NOT to go to those
meetings, but to unschool for a while and see how it goes.
-=-Not reading at eight because you don't want to is
certainly not a cause for consultation with experts.-=-
Kids don't decide they "don't want to" read at eight, unless at five, six and
seven someone was trying to force them to do it.
Kids who don't read early aren't ready to do it.
-=-But wanting to read at eight and not
being able to because you see double and the words are blurry *is*,
IMHO. -=-
"Wanting" to read at eight with or without clear vision isn't going to be
what causes reading to kick in. For little kids, most tiny print is blurry.
All the letters look the same to kids at some point. When that changes is
different from child to child.
My kids didn't learn to read with large-print beginner books. They learned
from regular small print, and even TINY print (Holly, Harry Potter cards were
her first real reading).
-=-And walking into things because you don't see that they are
there *is*. I can't imagine sentencing my kid to a life of blurry
vision because I didn't want him to see an expert. -=-
Quite dramatically overstated.
I run into things I don't see becuase I don't look sometimes. I've closed my
left hand in a drawer with my right hand half a dozen times in my life. It
hurts. It had nothing to do with vision; I wasn't even looking. I know where
my hands are. Sort of. Still, I sometimes turn around and whap something with
my hand. Something that's always been there.
Holly's running into things lately and banging her elbow and her head.
That's because she's getting tall fast, and she forgets where the new ends of
herself are. That is absolutely normal.
-=-There are times and
places for everything, and when something doesn't work right on a
child's body, I think the time and place has come to have some help
with it.-=-
Based on the original account and the experiences of lots and lots of
unschooling families, I don't think my simple suggestion for them to stall on getting
professional help was worth you getting this worked up about.
You countered the advice with a story of your own. That's fine! No problem.
But to try to hound me to the ground and try to make me feel guilty is
irritating and not too helpful (except in that I got to explain why I wrote what I
wrote).
Sandra
<< >And experts tend toward suggesting that
> homeschooling isn't good for children with special needs.<<Really? I think it's not a good idea to paint people you don't know
all with the same paintbrush. >>
Really.
"Tend toward" doesn't paint any individual.
When unschoolers need pschiatric or legal some of them just about FREAK
because it's going to be hard for them to find professionals who don't just assume
that some of the problem is that they're not in school, or that being in
school wouldn't be better for a child with special needs.
-=-Our vision therapists have been more
than supportive of homeschooling. Mostly, they see kids with vision
problems who have been bulldozed by the school system and whose self-
esteem is poor as a result. -=-
What perentage of all the experts in the world are your vision therapists?
Your exception doesn't disprove my generality.
-=-I think it's wrong to tell another parent to avoid a specialist who
might help their child, just based on the (often mistaken) belief
that all specialists are label-loving homeschool-haters. Our
experience has been the opposite.-=-
I didn't do that.
From the post that was sent, the mother seemed to be generalizing all the
child's traits as dyslexia. For one thing, dyslexic kids can and DO figure out
how to deal with their own perceptions. Unschoolers don't need that label.
And from the description of the problem in that one first post, it neither
seemed like dyslexia NOR like a problem that needed professional help.
When new/prospective unschoolers come along and say "after this last IEP
meeting, and a consultation with a child psychologist and wions NOT to go to those
meetings, but to unschool for a while and see how it goes.
-=-Not reading at eight because you don't want to is
certainly not a cause for consultation with experts.-=-
Kids don't decide they "don't want to" read at eight, unless at five, six and
seven someone was trying to force them to do it.
Kids who don't read early aren't ready to do it.
-=-But wanting to read at eight and not
being able to because you see double and the words are blurry *is*,
IMHO. -=-
"Wanting" to read at eight with or without clear vision isn't going to be
what causes reading to kick in. For little kids, most tiny print is blurry.
All the letters look the same to kids at some point. When that changes is
different from child to child.
My kids didn't learn to read with large-print beginner books. They learned
from regular small print, and even TINY print (Holly, Harry Potter cards were
her first real reading).
-=-And walking into things because you don't see that they are
there *is*. I can't imagine sentencing my kid to a life of blurry
vision because I didn't want him to see an expert. -=-
Quite dramatically overstated.
I run into things I don't see becuase I don't look sometimes. I've closed my
left hand in a drawer with my right hand half a dozen times in my life. It
hurts. It had nothing to do with vision; I wasn't even looking. I know where
my hands are. Sort of. Still, I sometimes turn around and whap something with
my hand. Something that's always been there.
Holly's running into things lately and banging her elbow and her head.
That's because she's getting tall fast, and she forgets where the new ends of
herself are. That is absolutely normal.
-=-There are times and
places for everything, and when something doesn't work right on a
child's body, I think the time and place has come to have some help
with it.-=-
Based on the original account and the experiences of lots and lots of
unschooling families, I don't think my simple suggestion for them to stall on getting
professional help was worth you getting this worked up about.
You countered the advice with a story of your own. That's fine! No problem.
But to try to hound me to the ground and try to make me feel guilty is
irritating and not too helpful (except in that I got to explain why I wrote what I
wrote).
Sandra
[email protected]
sylgt04@... writes:
makes sense to me that people who tend toward schooling will tend away from
unschooling.
A generality so obvious that maybe we tend to overlook its
significance? JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> For people who think school is a good place and that the education folksIf tending toward unschooling is to tend away from schooling, then it
> have a child's best interest at heart don't seem to understand why anyone would
> decline a free service offered by the local free schools.
>
makes sense to me that people who tend toward schooling will tend away from
unschooling.
A generality so obvious that maybe we tend to overlook its
significance? JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
living in different parts of the country. Our area has many
alternative schools and plenty of homeschoolers. It's considered more
or less normal here for a child not to be in the regular ol' public
school. Of the 25 kids in our immediate neighborhood, less than 10 go
to the public school that is in our area. I'm sure that colors not
only the perceptions of parents, but of experts that these parents
might or might not choose to go to. People her are pretty used to
differing educational choices.
accurate either. I know more than a few homeschoolers who have used
therapists of one stripe or another - OTs (occupational therapists),
vision therapists, language therapists, etc. and none of them have
encountered the attitude that you paint here. I think most therapists
are in the game to help kids, and I think more than a few of them
recognize that homeschooling families are going out of their way to
provide the best possible environment for these kids. Most of them
are also pretty familiar with what kids who are "different" encounter
in the school system - from teasing and bullying to labeling and
being considered "behind" in the system. They can see first-hand the
advantages of homeschooling.
brain, he'll figure things out if you stop trying to "keep him on
track" with other people." Personally, though you might disagree, I
think that it's just not good to give this kind of absolutist advice
("he'll figure things out if you stop trying to keep him on track")
based on one email post from a person you've never met.
areas that he was having trouble with and discussed seeing an
optemetrist and a vision therapist. The title of the post was a bit
misleading, but other than that, I didn't see this.
Regardless, vision problems are not the same as dyslexia. A vision
therapist is not the same thing as a reading therapist.
Unschoolers don't need that label.
Again, I have to disagree. When someone says "his eyes don't track
well together and he has some vision problems", that sounds like a
problem that might just need professional help, to me at least.
and had their parents read to them until they *were* interested. Just
like some kids aren't interested in riding bicycles, painting
pictures, or doing other things at that age. It's not a big deal
until someone makes it a big deal.
My son loves to read, wants to read, and can read anything if the
text is big enough. What frustrates him is that he *wants* to read
books like Harry Potter (and yes, I've read them to him and continue
to do so, but he wants to read them himself) but he can't because the
text is small, his eyes don't track, he gets blurred and doubled
vision and his head hurts after 3 or 4 minutes. Heck, if my head hurt
after 3 minutes of reading I'd be mightily upset as I love to read.
to read closely spaced or smaller print words is a far cry from what
you're talking about (not being ready to read or not being interested
in reading). If a child's brain is totally ready to read and *can*
read words that are far spaced and big, they're reading but just
unable to process a book. I see that as a totally different thing.
For little kids, most tiny print is blurry.
I've met more than a few adults who have this problem and it's much
harder to fix at age 35 or 40, unfortunately.
so. My son could read Harry Potter books if the print was big enough
to take up the living room wall, but he can't read them if the print
is tiny. He's more than ecstatic that after some therapy, his eyes
are working well enough to let him see smaller and smaller print.
not to be an hourly or daily problem for you, but a half-a-dozen-
times-in-a-life problem. For someone with vision problems, this stuff
happens on a minute-by-minute basis. Again, I'm glad that my son
doesn't have to live with that forever.
I guess this seems to me like saying to a person in a
wheelchair "Well, a few times in my life, my legs have gone to sleep
and when I tried to stand up, they didn't work. But hey, *I* don't
need a wheelchair to get around." It's apples and oranges. Your eyes
work well, you have very occasional problems where you run into
things because you aren't paying attention. My son's eyes don't work
well, he frequently does things like run into doorways, walls, car
doors, etc. This winter, he ran into a doorway hard enough to knock
himself out. I don't see any reason why he needs to live with poor
vision just because other people might have these kinds of problems
occasionally.
too. Her eyes work fine, she gets the occasional bumps and bruises.
Perhaps if all my kids were like her, I wouldn't understand vision
issues either. But my son is another case entirely, he's not like
her, his eyes don't work like hers, and I'm glad that there's a way
to help his eyes change so that they work together.
opinion. I think to tell a family that their child is perfectly fine
and doesn't need help based on one email is at best irresponsible.
I'm "worked up about it" as you say, because I can see the difference
that vision therapy has made in my kid's life. It's very near and
dear to my heart right now. I get equally "worked up" about
unschooling, as do many people on this list, because we can see how
big a difference it makes in children's lives. And when people slag
unschooling, especially people who don't know anything about it, it's
worth getting "worked up" about to let people know. I feel the same
way about the vision therapy.
you're coming from. I'm not trying to hound you or make you feel
guilty, but I do feel that your advice was wrong, and I think it's
important enough to counter it (as you do so many times with people's
unschooling advice, for largely the same reasons). I hope this list
will always be a place where people get to see more than one side of
unschooling, more than one family's vision. My family are
unschoolers, we love everything about it. My son takes vision
therapy, I don't see it as running counter to unschooling at all, any
more than I would having an unschooling kid in a wheelchair who gets
physical therapy. I think this is an important issue, and I'm glad it
came up on the list.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
> When unschoolers need pschiatric or legal some of them just aboutFREAK
> because it's going to be hard for them to find professionals whodon't just assume
> that some of the problem is that they're not in school, or thatbeing in
> school wouldn't be better for a child with special needs.Maybe part of our different ways of seeing this scenario is just
living in different parts of the country. Our area has many
alternative schools and plenty of homeschoolers. It's considered more
or less normal here for a child not to be in the regular ol' public
school. Of the 25 kids in our immediate neighborhood, less than 10 go
to the public school that is in our area. I'm sure that colors not
only the perceptions of parents, but of experts that these parents
might or might not choose to go to. People her are pretty used to
differing educational choices.
> What perentage of all the experts in the world are your visiontherapists?
> Your exception doesn't disprove my generality.No, perhaps not. Though I'm not convinced that your generality is
accurate either. I know more than a few homeschoolers who have used
therapists of one stripe or another - OTs (occupational therapists),
vision therapists, language therapists, etc. and none of them have
encountered the attitude that you paint here. I think most therapists
are in the game to help kids, and I think more than a few of them
recognize that homeschooling families are going out of their way to
provide the best possible environment for these kids. Most of them
are also pretty familiar with what kids who are "different" encounter
in the school system - from teasing and bullying to labeling and
being considered "behind" in the system. They can see first-hand the
advantages of homeschooling.
>who
> -=-I think it's wrong to tell another parent to avoid a specialist
>You said: " I'd cancel it. Honestly. However his eyes work with his
> might help their child, just based on the (often mistaken) belief
>
> that all specialists are label-loving homeschool-haters. Our
>
> experience has been the opposite.-=-
>
> I didn't do that.
brain, he'll figure things out if you stop trying to "keep him on
track" with other people." Personally, though you might disagree, I
think that it's just not good to give this kind of absolutist advice
("he'll figure things out if you stop trying to keep him on track")
based on one email post from a person you've never met.
> From the post that was sent, the mother seemed to be generalizingall the
> child's traits as dyslexia.<shrug> I didn't get that out of her post. She listed specific vision
areas that he was having trouble with and discussed seeing an
optemetrist and a vision therapist. The title of the post was a bit
misleading, but other than that, I didn't see this.
>For one thing, dyslexic kids can and DO figure outThat may or may not be true. Some do, some that I've known never do.
> how to deal with their own perceptions.
Regardless, vision problems are not the same as dyslexia. A vision
therapist is not the same thing as a reading therapist.
Unschoolers don't need that label.
> And from the description of the problem in that one first post, itneither
> seemed like dyslexia NOR like a problem that needed professionalhelp.
Again, I have to disagree. When someone says "his eyes don't track
well together and he has some vision problems", that sounds like a
problem that might just need professional help, to me at least.
> Kids don't decide they "don't want to" read at eight, unless atfive, six and
> seven someone was trying to force them to do it.I disagree. I know plenty of unschoolers who were just uninterested,
and had their parents read to them until they *were* interested. Just
like some kids aren't interested in riding bicycles, painting
pictures, or doing other things at that age. It's not a big deal
until someone makes it a big deal.
> Kids who don't read early aren't ready to do it.Unless they are ready to do it and vision problems are stopping them.
My son loves to read, wants to read, and can read anything if the
text is big enough. What frustrates him is that he *wants* to read
books like Harry Potter (and yes, I've read them to him and continue
to do so, but he wants to read them himself) but he can't because the
text is small, his eyes don't track, he gets blurred and doubled
vision and his head hurts after 3 or 4 minutes. Heck, if my head hurt
after 3 minutes of reading I'd be mightily upset as I love to read.
> "Wanting" to read at eight with or without clear vision isn't goingto be
> what causes reading to kick in.Wanting and being able to read large print words, but not being able
to read closely spaced or smaller print words is a far cry from what
you're talking about (not being ready to read or not being interested
in reading). If a child's brain is totally ready to read and *can*
read words that are far spaced and big, they're reading but just
unable to process a book. I see that as a totally different thing.
For little kids, most tiny print is blurry.
> All the letters look the same to kids at some point. When thatchanges is
> different from child to child.And for some kids it never changes, if their eyes don't work right.
I've met more than a few adults who have this problem and it's much
harder to fix at age 35 or 40, unfortunately.
> My kids didn't learn to read with large-print beginner books. Theylearned
> from regular small print, and even TINY print (Holly, Harry Pottercards were
> her first real reading).Bully for your kids. I'm glad that their eyes work well enough to do
so. My son could read Harry Potter books if the print was big enough
to take up the living room wall, but he can't read them if the print
is tiny. He's more than ecstatic that after some therapy, his eyes
are working well enough to let him see smaller and smaller print.
> I run into things I don't see becuase I don't look sometimes. I'veclosed my
> left hand in a drawer with my right hand half a dozen times in mylife. It
> hurts. It had nothing to do with vision; I wasn't even looking. Iknow where
> my hands are. Sort of. Still, I sometimes turn around and whapsomething with
> my hand. Something that's always been there.Again, I'm glad to hear that your vision works well enough for this
not to be an hourly or daily problem for you, but a half-a-dozen-
times-in-a-life problem. For someone with vision problems, this stuff
happens on a minute-by-minute basis. Again, I'm glad that my son
doesn't have to live with that forever.
I guess this seems to me like saying to a person in a
wheelchair "Well, a few times in my life, my legs have gone to sleep
and when I tried to stand up, they didn't work. But hey, *I* don't
need a wheelchair to get around." It's apples and oranges. Your eyes
work well, you have very occasional problems where you run into
things because you aren't paying attention. My son's eyes don't work
well, he frequently does things like run into doorways, walls, car
doors, etc. This winter, he ran into a doorway hard enough to knock
himself out. I don't see any reason why he needs to live with poor
vision just because other people might have these kinds of problems
occasionally.
> Holly's running into things lately and banging her elbow and herhead.
> That's because she's getting tall fast, and she forgets where thenew ends of
> herself are. That is absolutely normal.Right. Apples and oranges. It's normal for her. I have one normal kid
too. Her eyes work fine, she gets the occasional bumps and bruises.
Perhaps if all my kids were like her, I wouldn't understand vision
issues either. But my son is another case entirely, he's not like
her, his eyes don't work like hers, and I'm glad that there's a way
to help his eyes change so that they work together.
> Based on the original account and the experiences of lots and lotsof
> unschooling families, I don't think my simple suggestion for themto stall on getting
> professional help was worth you getting this worked up about.Well, I understand that you feel that way. I hold a different
opinion. I think to tell a family that their child is perfectly fine
and doesn't need help based on one email is at best irresponsible.
I'm "worked up about it" as you say, because I can see the difference
that vision therapy has made in my kid's life. It's very near and
dear to my heart right now. I get equally "worked up" about
unschooling, as do many people on this list, because we can see how
big a difference it makes in children's lives. And when people slag
unschooling, especially people who don't know anything about it, it's
worth getting "worked up" about to let people know. I feel the same
way about the vision therapy.
> You countered the advice with a story of your own. That's fine!No problem.
> But to try to hound me to the ground and try to make me feel guiltyis
> irritating and not too helpful (except in that I got to explain whyI wrote what I
> wrote).I'm glad you explained it. I still disagree, but I see a bit where
you're coming from. I'm not trying to hound you or make you feel
guilty, but I do feel that your advice was wrong, and I think it's
important enough to counter it (as you do so many times with people's
unschooling advice, for largely the same reasons). I hope this list
will always be a place where people get to see more than one side of
unschooling, more than one family's vision. My family are
unschoolers, we love everything about it. My son takes vision
therapy, I don't see it as running counter to unschooling at all, any
more than I would having an unschooling kid in a wheelchair who gets
physical therapy. I think this is an important issue, and I'm glad it
came up on the list.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/22/04 10:56:29 AM, sylgt04@... writes:
<< These people genuinely believed the only way to help my son was to keep
fighting for more services. Sure, some of that may have been to make their own
jobs easier (since it would have gotten him out of their classroom for a part
of each day) but a few were sincerely convinced it would help Will. >>
Also the schools get more money for "identified" need.
Sandra
<< These people genuinely believed the only way to help my son was to keep
fighting for more services. Sure, some of that may have been to make their own
jobs easier (since it would have gotten him out of their classroom for a part
of each day) but a few were sincerely convinced it would help Will. >>
Also the schools get more money for "identified" need.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/22/04 12:04:57 PM, jrossedd@... writes:
<<
makes sense to me that people who tend toward schooling will tend away from
unschooling. >>
The business with experts isn't about unschooling.
People who "school at home" are schooling. At home.
Experts in special problems, without regard to the gradations of ways to
homeschool, will think school is an opportunity for their fellow experts to deal
with special needs.
Sandra
<<
> For people who think school is a good place and that the education folkswould
> have a child's best interest at heart don't seem to understand why anyone
> decline a free service offered by the local free schools.<<If tending toward unschooling is to tend away from schooling, then it
>
makes sense to me that people who tend toward schooling will tend away from
unschooling. >>
The business with experts isn't about unschooling.
People who "school at home" are schooling. At home.
Experts in special problems, without regard to the gradations of ways to
homeschool, will think school is an opportunity for their fellow experts to deal
with special needs.
Sandra
[email protected]
Sandra wrote:
we keep talking about it, but I'm pretty new here <grin> and the meaning of
the dueling generalizations seems the same to me either way: people who
generally trust specialized training and experience will tend to see specialized
training and experience as a good thing, and seek it out, and recommend it to
others -- even when it may not be needed.
AND people who tend to distrust specialized training and experience
will see it as a bad thing, to view it with suspicion, to avoid it themselves
and to urge others to avoid it -- even when it may be needed. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> <<If tending toward unschooling is to tend away from schooling, then itIf the business about experts isn't about unschooling, I don't get why
> makes sense to me that people who tend toward schooling will tend away from
> unschooling. >>
>
> The business with experts isn't about unschooling.
>
> People who "school at home" are schooling. At home.
>
> Experts in special problems, without regard to the gradations of ways to
> homeschool, will think school is an opportunity for their fellow experts to
> deal
> with special needs.
>
we keep talking about it, but I'm pretty new here <grin> and the meaning of
the dueling generalizations seems the same to me either way: people who
generally trust specialized training and experience will tend to see specialized
training and experience as a good thing, and seek it out, and recommend it to
others -- even when it may not be needed.
AND people who tend to distrust specialized training and experience
will see it as a bad thing, to view it with suspicion, to avoid it themselves
and to urge others to avoid it -- even when it may be needed. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], jrossedd@a... wrote:
or not to pursue therapies for their children's issues (whatever they
might be)
Unschoolers who for one reason or another have had to make the
decision to investigate and/or pursue therapy for some issue that
their child is facing. I know for our family, we are neither seekers
nor avoiders of specialized training and experience. It was a hard
decision to make and we had to evaluate both the potential for good
and the potential for harm in getting the "experts" involved in our
child's life. Sharing the process and the outcome of our decision
with other unschoolers who might have to face it seems like a helpful
thing to me. I think it's very on-topic in discussions of unschooling
as not just an educational decision, but a lifestyle.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
> If the business about experts isn't about unschooling, Idon't get why
> we keep talking about itBecause many unschooling families are faced with decisions on whether
or not to pursue therapies for their children's issues (whatever they
might be)
> but I'm pretty new here <grin> and the meaning ofwho
> the dueling generalizations seems the same to me either way: people
> generally trust specialized training and experience will tend tosee specialized
> training and experience as a good thing, and seek it out, andrecommend it to
> others -- even when it may not be needed.experience
>
> AND people who tend to distrust specialized training and
> will see it as a bad thing, to view it with suspicion, to avoid itthemselves
> and to urge others to avoid it -- even when it may be needed. JJI think a lot more of us fall into the middle of these two extremes.
Unschoolers who for one reason or another have had to make the
decision to investigate and/or pursue therapy for some issue that
their child is facing. I know for our family, we are neither seekers
nor avoiders of specialized training and experience. It was a hard
decision to make and we had to evaluate both the potential for good
and the potential for harm in getting the "experts" involved in our
child's life. Sharing the process and the outcome of our decision
with other unschoolers who might have to face it seems like a helpful
thing to me. I think it's very on-topic in discussions of unschooling
as not just an educational decision, but a lifestyle.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
Elizabeth Hill
** Well, I understand that you feel that way. I hold a different
opinion. I think to tell a family that their child is perfectly fine
and doesn't need help based on one email is at best irresponsible.
I'm "worked up about it" as you say, because I can see the difference
that vision therapy has made in my kid's life. It's very near and
dear to my heart right now.**
Lillian Jones (Wrensong) has posted a lot on the HSC list (a California
list) about how vision therapy was beneficial to her son. She may have
some articles about it on her website, which I think is
www.besthomeschooling.org
Betsy
opinion. I think to tell a family that their child is perfectly fine
and doesn't need help based on one email is at best irresponsible.
I'm "worked up about it" as you say, because I can see the difference
that vision therapy has made in my kid's life. It's very near and
dear to my heart right now.**
Lillian Jones (Wrensong) has posted a lot on the HSC list (a California
list) about how vision therapy was beneficial to her son. She may have
some articles about it on her website, which I think is
www.besthomeschooling.org
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/22/2004 2:27:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
jrossedd@... writes:
If the business about experts isn't about unschooling, I don't get why
we keep talking about it
=============
The experts don't know about different kinds of homeschooling.
They won't be discriminating between unschoolers and structured
homeschoolers. Most of them have no idea about homeschooling. Many of them, because they
are heavily schooled themselves and invested in schools and schooling, have
school-leaning opinions.
That's not just my opinion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jrossedd@... writes:
If the business about experts isn't about unschooling, I don't get why
we keep talking about it
=============
The experts don't know about different kinds of homeschooling.
They won't be discriminating between unschoolers and structured
homeschoolers. Most of them have no idea about homeschooling. Many of them, because they
are heavily schooled themselves and invested in schools and schooling, have
school-leaning opinions.
That's not just my opinion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 05/23/2004 1:12:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
school-leery suspicions. All I was saying. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Many of them, because theyYes. And people invested in life without schools and schooling have
> are heavily schooled themselves and invested in schools and schooling, have
> school-leaning opinions.
>
school-leery suspicions. All I was saying. JJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
> ** Well, I understand that you feel that way. I hold a differentFWIW...
> opinion. I think to tell a family that their child is perfectly fine
> and doesn't need help based on one email is at best irresponsible.
> I'm "worked up about it" as you say, because I can see the difference
> that vision therapy has made in my kid's life. It's very near and
> dear to my heart right now.**
> ======================
When I was about 6 or 7, my mom took me to a vision therapist and I was
diagnosed with a convergence problem, which sounds like what's being
discussed here though no one's called it that. Basically, the muscles in my
eyes didn't work together although my vision is 20/20. The words didn't get
"blurry" really, they would just start to "swim" around on the page. They
would start to split in two--two words, two lines, two paragraphs--all at
once. The doctor was amazed that I read at all, never mind avidly. He
prescribed these really annoying eye exercised designed to strengthen the
muscles and give them practice working together.
I *hated* those exercises and pretty much refused to do them. Despite my
parents best efforts, the exercises just never happened. They were boring,
made my eyes hurt, gave me a headache, and there were lots of other things
that I would rather have been doing.
I continued to read. I went to grad school for English literature, got my
PhD--all without the eye exercises and by working through the problem on my
own. I'm sure all the reading I did must have helped strengthen the muscles
some. In grad school, I wore slightly magnified reading glasses a lot
because they took some of the strain off my eyes. It was worst when I was
doing lots of archival work and reading 17th and 18th century texts and
newspapers on microfiche. Not the best quality facsimiles.
Come to think of it, maybe this is why I seemed clumsy to some people--maybe
why my mom always called me things like Calamity Jane and Mrs. Magoo. Who
knows. Point is, I got the diagnosis, but I don't think it really made a bit
of difference in how I lived or progressed with my reading. It did, however,
create tension and animosity between myself and my parents, but maybe that
would have been there no matter what...
Just thought I'd share my experience.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], "Danielle Conger"
<danielle.conger@c...> wrote:
binocularity (tracking), peripheral vision, distance and near acuity,
visual-sensory integration, perceptual skills, and many others.
Sounds like your eyes had trouble converging. That's one of the
things my son's eyes have trouble doing (though he doesn't have 20/20
vision).
since then. I remember my cousin having to do something similar, and
similarly hating it. My son gets to do exercises with Yu-Gi-Oh cards,
Where's Waldo books, Pokemon characters, and other stuff. They change
every week. He usually asks me to do them with him, and we have a
good time. I think (as with so many things), there's a huge
difference in a child voluntarily doing something, and being forced
to do something.
that milder cases can and do get better on their own. One of my
oldest friends had similar issues and ended up with multiple
surgeries as an adult and a permanent wall-eye, but his issues were a
bit farther-reaching. That has made it tough when we were trying to
make a decision on this - which way will it go for our kid??
That's terrible! My parents did this to me as well. "Like a bull in a
china shop" was the one I got frequently. I can't imagine treating
my kids like that, especially for something they have no control over.
Who
decision about something like this - not knowing how it will turn out
for any one kid. On one hand, wonderful success stories like yours.
On the other hand, stories from people I've met whose issues never
resolved and who ended up being very hampered by an increasingly
disparate gap between their innate abilities and the ability of their
eyes to function. And many of them very bitter that their parents
didn't pursue a solution when it was possible. In the end, I'm glad
that my son can have a different experience, a much more pleasurable
journey with his therapists than what people have described from a
couple decades ago!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
<danielle.conger@c...> wrote:
> FWIW...was
>
> When I was about 6 or 7, my mom took me to a vision therapist and I
> diagnosed with a convergence problem, which sounds like what'sbeing
> discussed here though no one's called it that. Basically, themuscles in my
> eyes didn't work together although my vision is 20/20.Convergence is one of the issues that VT's treat for. There's also
binocularity (tracking), peripheral vision, distance and near acuity,
visual-sensory integration, perceptual skills, and many others.
Sounds like your eyes had trouble converging. That's one of the
things my son's eyes have trouble doing (though he doesn't have 20/20
vision).
> I *hated* those exercises and pretty much refused to do them.Despite my
> parents best efforts, the exercises just never happened. They wereboring,
> made my eyes hurt, gave me a headache, and there were lots of otherthings
> that I would rather have been doing.That's a bummer. I'm glad that the therapies have come a long way
since then. I remember my cousin having to do something similar, and
similarly hating it. My son gets to do exercises with Yu-Gi-Oh cards,
Where's Waldo books, Pokemon characters, and other stuff. They change
every week. He usually asks me to do them with him, and we have a
good time. I think (as with so many things), there's a huge
difference in a child voluntarily doing something, and being forced
to do something.
> I continued to read. I went to grad school for English literature,got my
> PhD--all without the eye exercises and by working through theproblem on my
> own.That's cool, I'm glad it resolved so well for you. It's good to hear
that milder cases can and do get better on their own. One of my
oldest friends had similar issues and ended up with multiple
surgeries as an adult and a permanent wall-eye, but his issues were a
bit farther-reaching. That has made it tough when we were trying to
make a decision on this - which way will it go for our kid??
> Come to think of it, maybe this is why I seemed clumsy to somepeople--maybe
> why my mom always called me things like Calamity Jane and Mrs.Magoo.
That's terrible! My parents did this to me as well. "Like a bull in a
china shop" was the one I got frequently. I can't imagine treating
my kids like that, especially for something they have no control over.
Who
> knows. Point is, I got the diagnosis, but I don't think it reallymade a bit
> of difference in how I lived or progressed with my reading. It did,however,
> create tension and animosity between myself and my parents, butmaybe that
> would have been there no matter what...I'm glad you did. I think that is the hardest point about making a
>
> Just thought I'd share my experience.
decision about something like this - not knowing how it will turn out
for any one kid. On one hand, wonderful success stories like yours.
On the other hand, stories from people I've met whose issues never
resolved and who ended up being very hampered by an increasingly
disparate gap between their innate abilities and the ability of their
eyes to function. And many of them very bitter that their parents
didn't pursue a solution when it was possible. In the end, I'm glad
that my son can have a different experience, a much more pleasurable
journey with his therapists than what people have described from a
couple decades ago!
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], "the_clevengers"
<tri_mom@c...> wrote:
doing with him as well. My son never lost the Moro reflex (where
babies fling their arms out when startled). As a big kid, this means
he sometimes knocks into things abruptly with his arms if he is
surprised. Also, it means that his body doesn't uncurl very easily.
He can't sit upright in a chair, for instance. This makes it hard to
play games on our computer, because he can't put his feet up on the
desk and simultaneously reach the keyboard. He has to kneel on the
chair or somehow get his body into a position that works. Eating is
hard too, and food gets dropped on the floor frequently (good thing
we have a dog!) because he can't sit up straight over his plate (good
thing he didn't grow up in my house, LOL).
Also, he he had problems with the left-right aspects of his body. His
hands have trouble crossing the center line of his body (he used to
draw and write on the left side of the page with his left hand, and
the right side with his right). This makes things like getting
dressed tough, because you have to be able to hold your left sleeve
with your right hand and that is incredibly hard for him. It also
makes it hard for him to play some video games - he's told me that he
has a tough time on games where he has to use his right hand to hit
keys on the left side of the keyboard.
Anyways, these are all things that are being addressed in vision
therapy, so that basic life skills like eating and getting dressed,
as well as stuff like video games, drawing, and writing, are all
getting easier. Much less frustrating for him.
Thought I'd throw that out in case anyone else has encountered this.
I never would've thought that all these things are connected, or that
they could be helped with visual and body-patterning exercises.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
<tri_mom@c...> wrote:
> Convergence is one of the issues that VT's treat for. There's alsoacuity,
> binocularity (tracking), peripheral vision, distance and near
> visual-sensory integration, perceptual skills, and many others.20/20
> Sounds like your eyes had trouble converging. That's one of the
> things my son's eyes have trouble doing (though he doesn't have
> vision).Oh yeah, I also forgot the physical aspects of exercises they're
doing with him as well. My son never lost the Moro reflex (where
babies fling their arms out when startled). As a big kid, this means
he sometimes knocks into things abruptly with his arms if he is
surprised. Also, it means that his body doesn't uncurl very easily.
He can't sit upright in a chair, for instance. This makes it hard to
play games on our computer, because he can't put his feet up on the
desk and simultaneously reach the keyboard. He has to kneel on the
chair or somehow get his body into a position that works. Eating is
hard too, and food gets dropped on the floor frequently (good thing
we have a dog!) because he can't sit up straight over his plate (good
thing he didn't grow up in my house, LOL).
Also, he he had problems with the left-right aspects of his body. His
hands have trouble crossing the center line of his body (he used to
draw and write on the left side of the page with his left hand, and
the right side with his right). This makes things like getting
dressed tough, because you have to be able to hold your left sleeve
with your right hand and that is incredibly hard for him. It also
makes it hard for him to play some video games - he's told me that he
has a tough time on games where he has to use his right hand to hit
keys on the left side of the keyboard.
Anyways, these are all things that are being addressed in vision
therapy, so that basic life skills like eating and getting dressed,
as well as stuff like video games, drawing, and writing, are all
getting easier. Much less frustrating for him.
Thought I'd throw that out in case anyone else has encountered this.
I never would've thought that all these things are connected, or that
they could be helped with visual and body-patterning exercises.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
the_clevengers
--- In [email protected], "Kelly Lenhart" wrote:
ended up breaking. It's a cool idea though. I'd like to get one
again, just for myself.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
> Have you tried those ergonomic chairs that you hook your kneesaround and
> sort of lean back? Like this:this
> http://www.ergonomic-chairs.com/Image%20Pages/variablepic.html or
> http://www.officedesigns.com/swivel.htmlYeah, we used to have one but the kids didn't like it much and it
ended up breaking. It's a cool idea though. I'd like to get one
again, just for myself.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
Kelly Lenhart
>He has to kneel on theHave you tried those ergonomic chairs that you hook your knees around and
>chair or somehow get his body into a position that works.
sort of lean back? Like this:
http://www.ergonomic-chairs.com/Image%20Pages/variablepic.html or this
http://www.officedesigns.com/swivel.html
Your sort of kneeling on it, but with your legs wrapped. The first link
shows someone sitting in one.
Kelly