Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell

This has been an interesting discussion. I have a 33 month old and am new
to homeschooling, and we've been subscribed to this unschooling list for
several months. This is the first thread I have followed.

I am curious what ages your children were when most of you started
"unschooling", however each of you may define it. Some of the comments I've
read lately tend to be what I guess are the "purist" unschooler's thoughts.
I'm referring to the comments about zilcho curriculum, no teaching allowed,
exclusive child led learning, etc. I have difficulty seeing how these could
be so zealotously (a word?) applied to young children, and even a certain
extent, to teenagers. For example:

1) Foreign languages are most easily learned and absorbed when we are quite
young (under 6 years). If I waited for my child to ask me about that, well,
she really doesn't have enough information to think of that question, not to
mention difficulty just formulating a sentence. I think she would have
missed out on that opportunity.

2) My daughter wanted to stay and play in one of the toy cabinets today
when I had a need to get the dog to the veterinarian for her shots. I was
pulling her away from her cabinet and her desires to learn and play at that
instant. I was doing the leading, she the following.

3) Occasionally my daughter wants to keep doing what she's doing, when
we're outside say, in the sunshine, or in the mosquito prime time. Should I
follow her lead and let her get sunburned or eaten alive by mosquitoes, or
deal with her crying and dissapointment because I have deemed it is in her
best interest.

I think I understand how such a thread has arisen, and I imagine many are
reacting against our society's tendency to *not* respect the child. I would
just add, that a child is a child, and requires supervision, teaching,
mentoring--whatever word you want to choose. (I have no "negative" reaction
to the word "teaching." I have had a number of teachers from the past that
I remember postively and am grateful they were in my life.) Just by virtue
of the fact you have chosen to homeschool and unschool, you have dictated
*to a certain extent* how your child will view and interact with the world.
Parents make choices every day, even prenatal choices that affect the child.
It can't be helped! It's called the environment. No one can escape it
completely. Give yourselves a break!

I am curious, where it is written what the "general consensus" on
"unschooling" is? And where is the list of right words, and wrong words to
use regarding such? This thread has led me to believe it is always in
process and quite diverse--and that's just fine with me!

Last comment, stolen from my husband's lips. You can't teach linear algebra
or Calculus from cooking. You're going to need some semblance of a
curriculum for such things.

Cheers,
Karen JW

> It's a really fuzzy line at times, but I think what we are trying to say
is
> that once you shift your focus from not worrying about what you use to
teach,
> the next item is to shift from is the idea you need to teach. Which
becomes
> even more fuzzy when you think, "but I have to answer their questions!"
Of
> course we do. I have one child that is a champion question asker. <g>
>
> If you work very hard at changing the language you use, it's much easier
to
> see unschooling clearly.

Linda Wyatt

> From: "Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell" <katejw@...>

> I am curious what ages your children were when most of you started
> "unschooling", however each of you may define it.

We started unschooling before we had kids. Unschooling with kids is simply
an extension of our lives before they were here.

> Some of the comments I've
> read lately tend to be what I guess are the "purist" unschooler's thoughts.
> I'm referring to the comments about zilcho curriculum, no teaching allowed,

It isn't that teaching "isn't allowed", it's that it simply doesn't happen
that way. There isn't a need for me to present information in a teaching
way. There aren't things that I feel I need to be the authority on,
there isn't information that I'm the only source of, and in general, I have
no stake in whether information I share is absorbed at that time or not.
If they asked me to teach them something, I might try to do that, but that
isn't what they ask.


> 1) Foreign languages are most easily learned and absorbed when we are quite
> young (under 6 years). If I waited for my child to ask me about that, well,
> she really doesn't have enough information to think of that question, not to
> mention difficulty just formulating a sentence. I think she would have
> missed out on that opportunity.

You don't have to wait for your child to ask, and sit there doing nothing
until that time. I truly do not understand where people get that from.
Modeling is possibly the most important ting about unschooling- doing
interesting and fun things yourself so that your children naturally see
lfie as fun and interesting stuff to learn about.

You could learn the language yourself, and practice with family members.
You might listen to tapes, watch videos, take lessons, invite a native
speaker to your house, use a book, watch movies in that language, read
children's books in that language, go somewhere that language is spoken,
etc. If *you* are interested in learning a language and are happily doing
these things, your child may get interested. If they don't get interested,
they at least know that the possibility exists- isn't that what you were
conerned about, that they wouldn't know to ask about it?

If you aren't interested in learning a lanugage, I don't see why it would
be so important to you that your child do so. If you are interested, then
your learning will be plenty to bring it to your child's attention.

I think it would be very odd for a child living in a learning environment
to reach the age of six not knowing of the existence of different
languages, and therefore having the opportunity to express an interest.



> 2) My daughter wanted to stay and play in one of the toy cabinets today
> when I had a need to get the dog to the veterinarian for her shots. I was
> pulling her away from her cabinet and her desires to learn and play at that
> instant. I was doing the leading, she the following.

This gets more into parenting issues than unschooling issues.


>
> 3) Occasionally my daughter wants to keep doing what she's doing, when
> we're outside say, in the sunshine, or in the mosquito prime time. Should I
> follow her lead and let her get sunburned or eaten alive by mosquitoes, or
> deal with her crying and dissapointment because I have deemed it is in her
> best interest.

Again, this is more parenting than unschooling. But couldn't you use
sunscreen and bug stuff?



> I am curious, where it is written what the "general consensus" on
> "unschooling" is?

It isn't, unless you consider John Holt's writings to be the generally
accepted definition, since he coined the word. His definition changed as
he educated himself, so be aware that he uses the word differently at
different times, and it has further evolved since then.


> Last comment, stolen from my husband's lips. You can't teach linear algebra
> or Calculus from cooking. You're going to need some semblance of a
> curriculum for such things.

Oh, my very favorite argument!!! Why do people always pick algebra and
calculus for this "but you need a curriculum for these" aregument? It
never fails. :-)


You *DO NOT NEED* a curriculum to learn algebra. Algebra is the most fun
thing in the world, if people are left to enjoy it rather than become
aggravated by an attempt to box and drill and kill it.

There are many, many ways to learn about math and mathematical concepts
without someone else's curriculum. Where did algebra and calculus come
from in the first place? From people who were interested in how things
work, who took the time to play with stuff and discover patterns and ways
to understand it.

The cool thing about algebra is that what it is is two things:
figuring out what you know, what you want to know, and how to use the first
to figure out the second. And, most fun and more importantly, it's *playing
with numbers* and their relationships with each other. You can play
however you like, move them around, change them, do all sorts of things,
and if you do that with an understanding of their relationships and how
they work, things will maintain their relationships, and you can use all
that playing around to fiddle stuff into whatever form makes you the most
happy, and therefore, is easiest for you to work with.

That's all it is. Not memorizing formulas. Not frustrating. Fun. Using
your understanding of numbers and number theory and relationships to make
things the way you want them, so you can use them to get real, useful
information.

A curriculum might be helpful for folks who don't have a clue where to
start playing, if they've had that playing with numbers instinct removed
somehow. But people without math phobias will naturally play around with
stuff enough to find it very cool and interesting and fascinating (unless,
of course, they simply aren't inclined that way, in which case, they aren't
likely to end up needing to know anyway). We do huge amounts of thinking
and talking and playing and exploring around here that involve things that
could be called algebra or calculus, but we have no need to call them that,
or call them anything, or categorize them, we just use them. Lots of
physics stuff and music stuff and art stuff. Cooking is often mentioned as
a way to play with math, but it is by far not the only one.



Linda

--
Linda Wyatt
hilinda@...
http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda
Learning everywhere, all the time.
Algebra before breakfast
"A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be
mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/1999 1:52:42 PM, you wrote:

<< This has been an interesting discussion. I have a 33 month old and am new
to homeschooling, and we've been subscribed to this unschooling list for
several months. This is the first thread I have followed.>>

I thought this list was new just a couple of weeks ago.
Are you confusing it with another unschooling list or was I just not invited
to be a charter member!? :-0

<<<<I would
just add, that a child is a child, and requires supervision, teaching,
mentoring--whatever word you want to choose. >>

A child is a person. There are adults I mentor too. I advise them on their
behavior and moods. I have to put sunscreen on my husband. I talk my sister
through social situatons sometimes.

Children need more basic advice sometimes, but when you can explain to them
why it's time to go or why they need to wait until after mosquito-hour,
they're in on the decision too and you haven't made it for them. If I can
convince a friend of mine to do something really useful for someone that she
might not have thought of on her own, I didn't MAKE her do it, although I
might have suggested it or inspired her to do it.

<<Just by virtue
of the fact you have chosen to homeschool and unschool, you have dictated
*to a certain extent* how your child will view and interact with the world.>>>

I wouldn't homeschool my children against their will. It wasn't dictated to
them. If one of them really wanted a formal curriculum, I'd buy one. I
would not myself direct that use of that, but I'd certainly explain what they
didn't understand and answer questions. I wouldn't be the one saying "It's
8:00, do math" or "It's test day."

<<Last comment, stolen from my husband's lips. You can't teach linear algebra
or Calculus from cooking. You're going to need some semblance of a
curriculum for such things.>>

My husband's a math guy.
So where in life to linear algebra and calculus live? That is where they
will be found.
And why would a person want to learn them? That is when they will be learned
easily--when the learner has the need or desire because of goals or plans.

Many things are taught too early in school, because schools want to compete
with one another and dazzle people and impress parents and school boards. It
has been said that all of 13 years of school could be learned in 18 months by
a teenager. No way does it take 13 years. Much of the purpose of school is
babysitting--isolating children away from working adults and those who
childless folk who just want six hours of quiet every day while kids are
incarcerated elsewhere.

And when in public school is calculus taught? Usually not until college.
And if you have a young teen interested in higher math, college courses will
be available to him and you won't have to learn to teach differential
equations.

Sandra

Cindy Ferguson

Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell wrote:
>
> I am curious what ages your children were when most of you started
> "unschooling", however each of you may define it. Some of the comments I've
> read lately tend to be what I guess are the "purist" unschooler's thoughts.
> I'm referring to the comments about zilcho curriculum, no teaching allowed,
> exclusive child led learning, etc. I have difficulty seeing how these could
> be so zealotously (a word?) applied to young children, and even a certain
> extent, to teenagers.

My children are Megan age 4 and Alex (a boy) age 1.83333.
My children were newborn when I started unschooling them. I didn't
know then it was called unschooling though. I did "nothing" except
provide a rich and varied and safe environment for them. They learned
to walk and talk in their own time and on their own schedule. I
did fret some -- Megan was a late walker (16 mos) and Alex is a late
talker. My fretting consisted of talking to their father about it
and both of us concluding that they were fine, just a bit later
than 'average'. Megan learned to use a toilet when she was a little
over 3; Alex isn't interested now -- he showed some interest
at 18 mos. but then decided he had other things to do!!

I do not ever envision using a curriculum. To me a curriculum is
a prescribed course of study outlined by someone other than the
party(parties) involved. If Megan came to me and told me she
wanted to be a rocket scientist, then we probably would sit down
and discuss the important disciplines needed to succeed in that
field. To me that isn't a curriculum; we probably would use
textbooks as reference material.

I don't understand your confusion at all on applying unschooling
to a younger child. It seems quite natural to me. I didn't 'teach'
them to walk, I didn't drill them, I didn't give them exercises to
do. I did create a safe space so when they desired they could attempt
it; I did give them praise and encouragement when they succeeded and
I consoled them when they fell down! For me unschooling is maintaining
that type of environment for all kinds of learning.

> For example:
>
> 1) Foreign languages are most easily learned and absorbed when we are quite
> young (under 6 years). If I waited for my child to ask me about that, well,
> she really doesn't have enough information to think of that question, not to
> mention difficulty just formulating a sentence. I think she would have
> missed out on that opportunity.
I do think modeling this is the most important aspect. I don't know
where you live but could you use another language in your day to day
living? When I lived in Switzerland in the 80s, I knew several
families where Mom spoke one language to the children, Dad another
one. But in Switzerland one could get TV channels in 3 languages
and many people were multilingual.

>
> 2) My daughter wanted to stay and play in one of the toy cabinets today
> when I had a need to get the dog to the veterinarian for her shots. I was
> pulling her away from her cabinet and her desires to learn and play at that
> instant. I was doing the leading, she the following.
>
> 3) Occasionally my daughter wants to keep doing what she's doing, when
> we're outside say, in the sunshine, or in the mosquito prime time. Should I
> follow her lead and let her get sunburned or eaten alive by mosquitoes, or
> deal with her crying and dissapointment because I have deemed it is in her
> best interest.
>
These are more general parenting concerns that specifically unschooling.
For me with young children, one of my biggest responsibilities is to
provide a safe environment. They don't understand that a fall from a
chair could hurt or that playing in the street could really hurt them.
Sometimes they may get upset the activity can't continue and I try
to explain to them why it can't and I empathize with their anguish.
But they still can't play in the street!!!

>
> I am curious, where it is written what the "general consensus" on
> "unschooling" is? And where is the list of right words, and wrong words to
> use regarding such? This thread has led me to believe it is always in
> process and quite diverse--and that's just fine with me!
>
I don't know where it is written! Maybe John Holt's work is one
place. Ask 10 unschoolers what unschooling is and you'll probably
get 10 different answers -- yet all will have some underlying
similarities.

> Last comment, stolen from my husband's lips. You can't teach linear algebra
> or Calculus from cooking. You're going to need some semblance of a
> curriculum for such things.
If you substitute textbook for curriculum, I would agree a bit more.
Linear algebra and calculus would be hard to learn from cooking but
not from other life experiences. Please recall my definition of
curriculum from above. I also don't plan on teaching (we may
have different definitions of that word) those subjects to my
children. If they want to learn them, fine and I will provide
resources -- including my own textbooks and recollections of the
subjects; if not, that's fine too.

BTW I readily recognize that I am at the radical end of the
unschooling spectrum.

--

Cindy Ferguson
crma@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/1999 4:10:22 PM, crma@... wrote:

<<Ask 10 unschoolers what unschooling is and you'll probably
get 10 different answers -- yet all will have some underlying
similarities.>>

I believe this is less true than people like to believe. In my experience,
the longer people unschool the closer their answers become, because there are
underlying principles about how learning happens IF it is left to happen
naturally. Until people let go and let it happen, they make assumptions
about natural learning, and those assumptions differ more widely than the
descriptions of experienced "radical unschoolers" do.

The other day I said (here or somewhere) that I had been unschooling for
seven years. It's eight. I was counting Kirby as though he would have just
finished sixth grade, but it was pointed out to me that he would have just
finished seventh. See? I don't even keep track of what grade he would be
in.

Because kindergarten is required here, I count unschooling from the time he
would have gone to kindergarten. I don't count before then because although
I wasn't using a curriculum and my children were home and learning, I wasn't
doing anything I wouldn't have been doing if they had been going to public
school at the age of five. When someone's absolutely planning to put their
kids in school, I don't consider them to be homeschooling before that point.
They're just living with pre-schoolers. It may look just exactly the same as
those who intend NOT to send their kids to school, but I just can't bring
myself to say I've been unschooling for twelve years just because Kirby's
nearly thirteen.

Now with Holly, perhaps it's different. She had two older brothers and one
was definitely NOT in school, and soon neither was in school, although we had
figured Marty might want to go (he didn't when the time came). So Holly was
big in the midst of an unschooling family and to consider her an unschooler
from the beginning makes more sense.


Sandra

[email protected]

Ok, I said I'd mostly be lurking for awhile, but this posting caught my eye.
I freely admit that my responses are based only on what I've read, seen other
parents do, and my experiences with my 3-year-old neice. (Unless you also
want to count my dog and horse experience. I'll leave that up to you.)

>I'm referring to the comments about zilcho curriculum, no teaching allowed,
>exclusive child led learning, etc.

Maybe some do, but I've never viewed unschooling as a no teaching allowed
thing. Maybe a no forced teaching allowed. Or perhaps some prefer the
terminology of setting up a learning enviroment rather than teaching. Also,
be careful not to confuse child led learning with child led living. As far
as I'm concerned, unschooling is not about giving into a child's every desire
or centering the parents' entire lives around the child. It is about
remembering that a child is a person (just like an adult is) and deserves the
respect and consideration that adults are accorded. I don't want anyone
saying to me, "OK, every day from 8:00 til 9:00 you're going to work in this
math book, then I'll drill you on some vocabulary, etc." So I don't want to
do that to my children either.

>>1) Foreign languages are most easily learned and absorbed when we are quite
young (under 6 years). If I waited for my child to ask me about that, well,
she really doesn't have enough information to think of that question, not to
mention difficulty just formulating a sentence. I think she would have
missed out on that opportunity.<<

Something that unschooling most definitely does seem to be, to me, is the
opportunity to discover things about the world. Rather than being locked in
a building for half the day with very limited options, I hope for my children
to have a lot of exposure to the world and people around them. If I had
children now, they would have adults in their lives who speak Spanish,
French, and German. We rent Italian and Swedish movies frequently. I know a
dabbling of Welsh. By the time I have children I may know even more
bilingual people. Even if I don't actually know someone in an area of
interest, I would still try to expose my child to it in some way.
Unschooling is not about cloistering or about waiting for the child to come
up with ideas. It's about showing the world to your child and seeing what
s/he wants to do with it.

>>2) My daughter wanted to stay and play in one of the toy cabinets today
when I had a need to get the dog to the veterinarian for her shots. I was
pulling her away from her cabinet and her desires to learn and play at that
instant. I was doing the leading, she the following.

3) Occasionally my daughter wants to keep doing what she's doing, when
we're outside say, in the sunshine, or in the mosquito prime time. Should I
follow her lead and let her get sunburned or eaten alive by mosquitoes, or
deal with her crying and dissapointment because I have deemed it is in her
best interest.<<

In the first case, your child needed to give up something she wanted because
someone else (in this case either you or the dog or both depending on how you
want to look at it) needed something more important. This is something
everyone has to do. In the second it's a question of health or at least
comfort. However, I would assert that saying, "I need you to help me take
the dog to the vet" or "The sun is very hot now and we'll get burned." is
different than saying "Stop playing, I need to go now or I'll be late" or "We
have to leave now." I think it really does help to explain, to include the
child in the discussion. I think it's even more effective (in my experience)
if the child is actually active and helping in some way (as in the first
example). My neice is very strong-headed (some people would say "willful")
but when I explain what I need her to do she's fine. I don't for a minute
claim that this will work all the time or equally well with all children, but
I think it's an attitude.

>Just by virtue
of the fact you have chosen to homeschool and unschool, you have dictated
*to a certain extent* how your child will view and interact with the world.
Parents make choices every day, even prenatal choices that affect the child.
It can't be helped! It's called the environment. <

Of course. Though, as I said in my first post, how I will approach my
unschooling/homeschooling will depend on the personalities of my children.
If it really seemed better for one of my children, I would even consider a
private school. I have no desire to somehow eliminate "environment" for my
children or even to subdue my own personality. I just want to provide the
best environment possible for them. And, IMHO, that means giving them a
place where they feel safe to learn, question, create, explore, and be
whoever it is that they will be. It's also a place where they feel like
they're making a contribution.

>Last comment, stolen from my husband's lips. You can't teach linear algebra
or Calculus from cooking. You're going to need some semblance of a
curriculum for such things.<

Obviously, your husband has never tried to cook a Martha Stewart recipe. ;-)

Seriously, what is it with the calculus thing? How many students in public
or even private high school take calculus? How many adults ever use or
remember their calculus?

Basically, there seems to be three reasons to learn something like this: 1.
You enjoy it 2. You need it to progress in something you enjoy 3. You need
it for something else that is otherwise unrelated.

So, I might have a child who just loves math for its own sake. If that child
wants to work his/her way through a calculus book or take a college class or
make a private arrangement with a math teacher, I'm certainly not going to
mind. (When I was in school I actually LOVED working through math books,
especially story problems. Twisted, I know. ;-) ) Or possibly their math
intelligence will be strong enough that they won't need these things. If I
have a child who loves physics, s/he will have to decide whether they love it
enough to deal with the mathematical part. If so, again, there are choices
for learning. But it will be the child's choice, not mine. Finally, if I
have a child who's brilliant at words but so-so at math but s/he wants to go
to college, I'll be sure s/he knows what level of math is necessary for the
SATs to impress the admissions offices at college. Then, again, it's the
child's choice.

Elizabeth

Linda Wyatt

> From: "Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell" <katejw@...>


> I was doing the leading, she the following.

This is only one mention of leading and following that led to some thoughts
I've been having today.

I don't like the term "child led learning". I don't like "natural
learning" either, for a different reason.

Anyway.

Around here, no one is leading, and no one is following, most of the time.
We do what we do. Sometimes we are all doing different things, sometimes
we are doing the same things separately, sometimes together.

It's not like the kids say they are interested in something, and I'm
following them around, listening for that comment or question, at which
time I jump in with resources. I think people sometimes get that
impression of unschooling.

Usually, it's more like this:

My oldest has a computer across the room from where mine is. Since we are
both in there at the same time some of the time, we might talk while we
work. Or he might be talking to a sibling while he does something, and I
can hear them. Or he might come upstairs later and mention what he was
doing, or suggest something he might like to do.

Days later, maybe I'll be at a book store, and come across a book that
reminds me of something he said. I might get it, if it sounds interesting.
Or maybe I won't get it, but I'll tell him later that I saw it, and see
what he thinks.

He might come across something online that he knows I'm interested in and
tell me.

Recently, he looked at a webpage I coded, thought something was cool, and
downloaded the sourcecode to use on his own page. I was glad to see it,
since he has been so much help to me when I've needed to find code for
something.

Meanwhile, I've read a dozen books to the youngest, who has decided she
wants more books with the moon in them, so in the back of my head, that
thought is there, and if I come across any moon books, I'm likely to
notice. We've been planning to go outside at the next full moon, and I may
try to find that book- Walk When The Moon is Full and read that before we
go, or maybe not. We might get out the telescope, or not. Maybe we'll
sleep outside.

The roses have just started blooming so we'll be taking pictures of them
later for a friend who is interested in them- and that reminds me, we need
to plant the flowers we want to grow for drying. We also need to get the
outdoor water fixed so we don't have to carry water to everything in this
dry weather.


And so it goes, our lives, from one thing to another, flowing without much
effort. My life, my kids' lives, my husband's life. Sometimes on our own,
sometimes as a group. No one is really leading, we're all meandering.

Maybe I'll start using the phrase "interest-flow learning".

Linda

--
Linda Wyatt
hilinda@...
http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda
Learning everywhere, all the time.
Algebra before breakfast
"A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be
mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown

Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell

Okay gang,

You caught me on the newness of the list! I had forgotten we got it from a
link from another homeschool list and that it was a NEW list! I guess the
sheer volume of posts led me to believe it had been around for a while <g>,
or perhaps it was several people mentioning something to the effect that it
used to be so fun and friendly before this came along. Used to be? I
thought that suggested > 2 weeks. My mistake.

I totally agree with modeling, and I think surrounding your child with
people who speak foreign language, and inviting them to learn with you is
great. In fact, we have done so with learning sign language with our 33
month old. I used this as an example, because I thought some members would
view this as "TEACHING". I'm seeing this is quite a debate of semantics
more than anything else. Also, I said the best time is PRIOR to 6 years
old, like 2 to 6.

Regarding linear algebra and calculus....my husband is a mathmetician as
well and I'll let him respond. He wasn't sure if a textbook would be viewed
as "CURRICULUM"! My question, is I didn't realize college was okay for some
of you, as I misconstrued that you would be "taught" in such a class. I
didn't realize unschooling stopped post highschool age. I thought it went
on FOREVER.

Several of you distinguished "parenting" issues, from "schooling" issues.
Another argument of semantics. I thought unschooling permeated all aspects
of life, hence the reason I used those examples. And BTW, I do attempt to
explain to Kate about mosquitoes and getting sunburned, but alas, sometimes
the fun she is having is more understandable. And whoever said why don't
you use sunscreen and bug juice.....sunscreen works for a certain amount of
time (even sunblock 45). You obviously don't have fair skin (or red hair
like Kate!! :). Nor have you had peers develop melanoma. The contents of
bug juice are really not what I like to be slathering myself with, much less
Kate, though I would if it appeared to me a worthwhile outdoor event (I
suppose that would be my parental judgment, eh? not my unschooler choice).

Karen

Cindy Ferguson

Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell wrote:
>
> Regarding linear algebra and calculus....my husband is a mathmetician as
> well and I'll let him respond. He wasn't sure if a textbook would be viewed
> as "CURRICULUM"! My question, is I didn't realize college was okay for some
> of you, as I misconstrued that you would be "taught" in such a class. I
> didn't realize unschooling stopped post highschool age. I thought it went
> on FOREVER.
>
I'm a mathematician too. I view textbooks as resources. If a person
(adult or child) wants to learn about a subject using a textbook,
that's cool! I have my old History of England text around and I
look up things in that occasionally. I also have most of my math,
physics, and computer science books around for reference too.

I don't think that taking classes someplace is anathema to unschooling.
It's the motivation for the person taking the class that matters.
If I coerce another person into taking a class, I'm not unschooling!

I see what I personally am doing now as a combination of unschooling
and deschooling. I am unschooling myself in that I am learning new
things. I am deschooling in that I am attempting to frame learning/
education/teaching in new terms.

I also believe that unschooling continues thru life, even if one
attends college and graduates.

--

Cindy Ferguson
crma@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/99 11:52:56 AM PST, katejw@... writes:

<<
I am curious, where it is written what the "general consensus" on
"unschooling" is? And where is the list of right words, and wrong words to
use regarding such? This thread has led me to believe it is always in
process and quite diverse--and that's just fine with me!

Last comment, stolen from my husband's lips. You can't teach linear algebra
or Calculus from cooking. You're going to need some semblance of a
curriculum for such things.

Cheers,
Kare >>

First - Child-led learning does NOT mean that you sit around staring at your
kids waiting for them to ask about something. It doesn't. Child led
learning means that you KNOW your children, you understand how their brains
work, how they learn best and you facilitate their interests in ways that
will help them figure things out. SO - If I want to learn Spanish (which I
do, and I am) I find a way that I like - I share the language I am learning
with whoever is interested. At this time, 4 of my dd's are interested. We
decided to find someone who could help us learn. For US this has been the
best method. My ds didn't WANT to learn SPanish - he wants German. He is
way into WWII stuff and has become fascinated with the language. A teacher
for him is NOT the best way to learn. We have purchased tapes and books and
other things for him to learn the language. Occasionally he gets an
opportunity to speak with his Uncle, who learned in school. These are BOTH
child-led things. The first happened because I became interested and shared
my interest with the kids...some chose to follow/participate, some didn't.

As far as Algebra and Higher Math... We use these in real life... so what if
we don't know the theorems (sp?) and "rules"? When trying to figure out how
much paint we need to cover a 2000 sf house, we use algebra. When trying to
decide how big a tarp we need to cover our cords of wood, we use algebra...
The kids naturally participate in the measuring and multiplying and such...
they are learning the principles. If they ever NEED to know the theorems
(why does that look wrong???) they know how to find information on that too.
There is "higher math" in every day life - most people just don't recognize
it as such.

Mary

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/99 3:34:12 PM EST, hilinda@... writes:

<< A curriculum might be helpful for folks who don't have a clue where to
start playing, if they've had that playing with numbers instinct removed
somehow. But people without math phobias will naturally play around with
stuff enough to find it very cool and interesting and fascinating (unless,
of course, they simply aren't inclined that way, in which case, they aren't
likely to end up needing to know anyway). We do huge amounts of thinking
and talking and playing and exploring around here that involve things that
could be called algebra or calculus, but we have no need to call them that,
or call them anything, or categorize them, we just use them. Lots of
physics stuff and music stuff and art stuff. Cooking is often mentioned as
a way to play with math, but it is by far not the only one. >>
Linda,
This is such a common response when someone new asks about how their children
will learn about higher math. First of all I don't think there are that many
of us out there who don't have a math phobia. Therefore there are a LOT of
us out there who are clueless, and when we ask, we get almost condescending
answers and generalities. Blaming the parent for what they can't do because
they don't know how. No one gives specific examples, just "play with numbers"
how does that help? I never played with numbers so don't understand. " lots
of music stuff," my kids play three instruments, how does this help with
higher math? I am not being contrary, I am SERIOUS here. I want to let my
children have a happy learning experience, and if I am the culprit of them
not having that, then I want to do something about it. We do not all have
the benefit of "always being unschoolers, so it is a lifestyle. Some of us
are not happy with the way we started out and want to change, but we need
help.
Teresa

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/99 1:37:04 PM PST, SandraDodd@... writes:

<<
<< This has been an interesting discussion. I have a 33 month old and am new
to homeschooling, and we've been subscribed to this unschooling list for
several months. This is the first thread I have followed.>>

I thought this list was new just a couple of weeks ago.
Are you confusing it with another unschooling list or was I just not invited
to be a charter member!? :-0
>>

It is correct that this list is pretty new. Charter member? Well - I should
have given you a "heads up" I guess - but I kept HOPING you would find us
<g>. I think I figured you were here.... somewhere....

Sure glad you joined us!!!

Mary

Lois Hoover

>From: "Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell" <katejw@...>
>
>Okay gang,
>
>I totally agree with modeling, and I think surrounding your child with
>people who speak foreign language, and inviting them to learn with you is
>great. In fact, we have done so with learning sign language with our 33
>month old.

My sons also learned sign language from me. But it was their choice.
Actually how it came about was that a woman approached me who was deaf in a
store. I was able to communicate with her because I learned it (I believe
strongly that we should be able to communicate with all who live around us
since some could be deaf I learned signing). My children felt that they
wanted to learn it also so we learned a little at a time as they asked for
certain words or phrases.
>
>Regarding linear algebra and calculus....my husband is a mathmetician as
>well and I'll let him respond. He wasn't sure if a textbook would be viewed
>as "CURRICULUM"! My question, is I didn't realize college was okay for some
>of you, as I misconstrued that you would be "taught" in such a class. I
>didn't realize unschooling stopped post highschool age. I thought it went
>on FOREVER.
>
for some it does. But depending on what the child/now adult chooses for
their profession sometimes you need to attend college or some school to get
that piece of paper and be taken seriously in the job market. My oldest son
welds and is very good. He's now 14, but needing to be certified he will
have to attend a trade school before he can work in the field. My youngest
would like to work on computers. He already can build a computer from
scratch and has boxes of hardware parts filling his room. He may not have
to attend a college, but then again he may. It will be his choice. For now,
both boys prefer to unschool and at least my oldest is dismayed looking
forward to having to attend the tech school.

>Several of you distinguished "parenting" issues, from "schooling" issues.
>Another argument of semantics. I thought unschooling permeated all aspects
>of life, hence the reason I used those examples.

Unschooling to me is how we learn, but I do personally separate parenting
from learning.


> The contents of
>bug juice are really not what I like to be slathering myself with, much less
>Kate, though I would if it appeared to me a worthwhile outdoor event (I
>suppose that would be my parental judgment, eh? not my unschooler choice).
>
I agree with you on most of the bug items out there, but we do use Avon's
skin so soft for mosquitos and if we are going to be in wooded areas we use
the Skin so soft for sunblock, ticks, and mosquitos. It does work pretty well.

Lois

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/99 7:03:37 PM EST, hilinda@... writes:

<< Maybe I'll start using the phrase "interest-flow learning". >>
Linda,
That is a very interesting term! really conveys a lot!
Teresa

Karen

Hsmotgo@... wrote:

> This is such a common response when someone new asks about how their children
> will learn about higher math. First of all I don't think there are that many
> of us out there who don't have a math phobia. Therefore there are a LOT of us
> out there who are clueless, and when we ask, we get almost condescending
> answers and generalities. Blaming the parent for what they can't do because
> they don't know how. No one gives specific examples, just "play with numbers"
> how does that help? I never played with numbers so don't understand.

Thanks, Teresa... I am glad to hear someone else voice this. I somehow got the
impression that I was "bad" at math while in public school (by comparing my math
scores on standardized test to everything else... math was always in the 75-85th
percentile and everything else 95-99th %tile). Even though I know now it isn't
true, it is hard for me to attempt higher math! The 2 algebra courses I had to
take in college in order to meet the math requirement for graduation were pure
torture for me. I don't want this for my children!

> We do not all have
> the benefit of "always being unschoolers, so it is a lifestyle. Some of us
> are not happy with the way we started out and want to change, but we need
> help.

Yes, yes, yes... I am reading "The Unschooling Handbook" right now and it makes
me want to just ditch the small amount of structure we have right now. But it is
a frightening step for me...

I'm afraid I have done something rather rude and replied to a thread before
introducing myself, so I'd best do it now. I am Karen, full-time mom to 3
wonderful kids: Emily, 7 1/2; Noah, 3 1/2, and Halle, 8 months. My husband is an
Air Force nurse anesthesia resident and we are in Dayton, OH. I just joined the
list yesterday and have been trying to get a feel for it. As I mentioned above,
I am feeling torn between unschooling and relaxed homeschooling w/ some
structure. Sometimes I think that unschooling looks easy on the outside, but is
really more work than traditional homeschooling, and wonder if I have the energy
to do it!

I'm looking forward to learning from all of you..

Karen

Mama to Emily (12/30/91), Noah (12/30/95), and Halle (10/12/98)
Life partner to Brian since 1986
Wright-Patterson AFB, OH (Dayton)
http://www.geocities.com/heartland/2358
****** mailto:careermom@... ******

B & T Simpson

>This is such a common response when someone new asks about how their
children
>will learn about higher math. First of all I don't think there are that
many
>of us out there who don't have a math phobia. Therefore there are a LOT of
>us out there who are clueless, and when we ask, we get almost condescending
>answers and generalities. Blaming the parent for what they can't do
because
>they don't know how. No one gives specific examples, just "play with
numbers"
>how does that help? I never played with numbers so don't understand. "
lots
>of music stuff," my kids play three instruments, how does this help with
>higher math? I am not being contrary, I am SERIOUS here. I want to let my
>children have a happy learning experience, and if I am the culprit of them
>not having that, then I want to do something about it. We do not all have
>the benefit of "always being unschoolers, so it is a lifestyle. Some of us
>are not happy with the way we started out and want to change, but we need
>help.
>Teresa>>>


Well said Teresa, I feel the same way, and my daughter was just pulled from
ps in Feb, thus far she loves Algebra (what they have started anyway) I do
want to encourage her
but the only way I know how to do this is by providing her with workbooks
and textbooks to figure out on her own, as I just have no clue where to
begin to assist her if she had a question!
Tanya Ohio
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Having difficulty getting "in synch" with list members?
>http://www.onelist.com
>Try ONElist's Shared Calendar to organize events, meetings and more!
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Check it out!
>http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

sandy keane

Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell wrote:

>
> I am curious, where it is written what the "general consensus" on
> "unschooling" is? And where is the list of right words, and wrong words to
> use regarding such? This thread has led me to believe it is always in
> process and quite diverse--and that's just fine with me!
>

HA! Consensus on this one? BWAHAHAHAHA! Not yet. I can't count
how many unschooling, radical unschooling, unschooling circles,
etc. etc. etc. .....lists I've been on and without fail there is
always an exchange, ranging in temperature from somewhat heated
to blazing flames over definitions and who can call themselves
what and so on. It seems to be part of the life-cycle on all the
homeschool lists, not just the unschooling ones. I have my
definition which works for me, and frankly, I couldn't care less
about anybody else's. If a child is making her own learning
experience, I don't care if she uses curriculum or not, though I
have yet to meet an elementary age child who would choose
curriculum if given the choice. I have however, met several
unschooled from birth young people who, for reasons of their own,
have chosen to do all or parts of correspondence courses with
assignments, grades and the whole ten yards. I still consider
these folks unschoolers, as the decision about how, what, where
and with whom to learn was entirely theirs, as is the decision to
remain with this path or return to more intrinsic learning
styles.

As the mother of two learned but untaught boys, I wonder
sometimes if we haven't gone overboard with the autodidact
ideal. My eldest, at fourteen, seems to have an attitude that if
he doesn't figure something out entirely on his own, it doesn't
count. This is all very well, and certainly an effective way to
learn things in most cases, but it also means that he spends (I
wanted to say "wastes" but I'm sure there is something of value
here somewhere) inordinate amounts of time reinventing wheels, so
to speak. I keep mentioning that "it's okay to look at the
manual, you know, I won't tell anybody - it's not cheating" ....
but, well.
I think it's important to know that asking someone who already
knows what you want to learn is one of several possible effective
methods of aquiring skills or information. I'm sure he'll get
there eventually, but gosh, its hard to keep my mouth shut and
just let him keep shooting himself in the foot.
.
> Last comment, stolen from my husband's lips. You can't teach linear algebra
> or Calculus from cooking. You're going to need some semblance of a
> curriculum for such things.
>

Well, maybe not, but maybe you can learn a lot of algebraic
concepts by cooking, or playing with lego or constructing models
to scale.... before you actually get down to the linear equation
expression of those concepts on paper. If and when the child
decides that they need to know algebra they may find that they
understand a good deal already. They just haven't been calling
it algebra. I can't comment about calculus, having reached the
age of 50 without ever having learned it or needed it for
anything.

Does your husband believe that everyone needs to know algebra and
calculus, and if so, why? I've learned to ask myself these
questions whenever I go through my periods of worrying about what
the kids haven't hit on yet. Sometimes I find that when I really
think about it, it's my schooling experience which is causing my
panic - Not my children's learning.

Sandy <skeane@...> http://mypage.direct.ca/s/skeane/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lois Hoover

>Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell wrote:
>
Last comment, stolen from my husband's lips. You can't teach linear
algebra or Calculus from cooking. You're going to need some semblance of a
curriculum for such things.
>>
Karen,
I know the subject here was Algebra and Calculus. But had to share with you
something my youngest just did. In the current heat wave, we've resorted to
freezing water in 20 oz pop bottles. His had melted quite a bit, but had a
pretty good sized chunk still swimming in the bottle. He began playing with
the ice (driving us all nuts as we listened to the click click of the ice
hitting the bottom, then the top of the botte. Finally, in desperation to
quit hearing this we asked what he was doing (trying to avoid asking him to
give us a break as the heat brings out the worst in all of us). He looked
at us and said "my ice falls whenever I get to a 30 degree angle with the
bottle". This from a child who to the best of my knowlege never learned
anything about geometry. Guess you can play and learn.

As for algebra, I mentioned that same son saw an algebra scale in a
catalog. He asked for it, and began to play with the pans. It didn't take
long before he had mastered the idea of the equations/negative numbers. I
wouldn't dream of using a book with him as he gets really frustrated with
textbooks, but he really likes playing to figure things out, so while I
learned algebra at school the old fashioned way (books) I'm going to learn
by watching him to see how this can work without the books.

Lois
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/99 4:15:50 PM PST, katejw@... writes:

<< You obviously don't have fair skin (or red hair
like Kate!! :). Nor have you had peers develop melanoma. The contents of
bug juice are really not what I like to be slathering myself with, much less
Kate, though I would if it appeared to me a worthwhile outdoor event (I
suppose that would be my parental judgment, eh? not my unschooler choice).

Karen
>>

Ok - try Avon Skin SO SOft Sunscreen. It is a bug repellant (Including Deer
ticks, which carry Lyme Disease) as well as a sunscreen. Around here it is
the most recommended for our Search and Rescue Volunteers, who will be out
tromping through the woods looking for lost hikers. You DO have to apply it
several times throughout the day, but no biggie...

As for the taking classes thing. If the class is not FORCED on the child, if
the child (whatever age) decides to take a class to learn something - why
not? For me, it is FORCED learning that is a real problem...

Mary

Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell

I never said everyone should know and learn linear algebra and calculus.
I never said learning math cannot involve play and must be drudgery.
I never said I forced my child to learn a foreign language against her will.
I never said you sit back and wait for your kids to ask you questions before
doing anything.....

I was responding to a discussion that talked about the word "teaching"
negatively.
My husband's comment was in reference to needing some textbooks and teaching
for higher math--not that required to paint a house, but that required for
jobs such as engineering of all types. NO, I was not saying cram it down
every kid's throat. I WAS saying if a child wanted to do that, then
wouldn't one have to be taught. Do you really think unschooling is so hot,
that you can teach (oh excuse me, learn) engineering in 18 months, when it
takes 5 years in college. You think those kids sit around and party all the
time? You think their teachers have their heads in the wrong place? I
don't think so. I think it's just kind of difficult. It just might not fit
into some of the pristine theories being so easily spouted around here. So
it seems its okay to brag about being a real unschooler until they are old
enough to choose engineering, then hey, they chose it, now they can go to
college and teachers are good guys because the kid chose them. Huh?

BRAHAHAHAHA. Argue on. Scapegoat on. Paint me in a box until I scream
"Uncle!" But your barking up the wrong tree. I didn't join this list to
tell you to give tests and teach in 30 minute time blocks and slap your kid
around and tell them what to do, or better yet, just neglect them. It's
amazing what gets misconstrued on these lists.

I don't have time for it anymore. I've got to go teach my child. Ya
hahahahahahaha.
Karen JW

Brown

Karen and all

Karen wrote:

> I am curious, where it is written what the "general consensus" on
> "unschooling" is? And where is the list of right words, and wrong words to
> use regarding such? This thread has led me to believe it is always in
> process and quite diverse--and that's just fine with me!

You're right - there is no general concensus on what unschooling is - my
apologies. However, I do believe that there is pretty wide agreement on what it
isn't. And that includes not using curriculum imposed by someone other than the
learner. But then again, maybe there are different interpretations of that word
'curriculum' too! Someone else mentioned a difference between curriculum and
textbooks and I'd agree with that. We use textbooks sometimes, but never in a
'start at the beginning and go on until the end, doing everything' way.

My children and I have all, at times, attended classes when we wanted to learn
something specific and a class seemed the best available way to achieve that end
- and in those cases we accept the parameters of that situation. Usually.
Sometimes we drop out. In that case we tell the teacher why. The important thing
is that as learners we retain free choice.

Carol

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/99 11:53:23 PM Central Daylight Time,
lhoover@... writes:

<< He looked
at us and said "my ice falls whenever I get to a 30 degree angle with the
bottle". This from a child who to the best of my knowlege never learned
anything about geometry. Guess you can play and learn. >>

Lois,
These are the things I love hearing about. I just hope that we can
remember all the neat things our kids said, after they have grown up and
moved on. Maybe we should start writing them in a journal!? Anway, that was
really cool!
Tami

Brown

Linda

What a shame we feel we have to define ourselves at all, other than 'living and
being'. I loved what you had to say.

Carol

Linda Wyatt wrote:

> From: Linda Wyatt <hilinda@...>
>
> > From: "Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell" <katejw@...>
>
> > I was doing the leading, she the following.
>
> This is only one mention of leading and following that led to some thoughts
> I've been having today.
>
> I don't like the term "child led learning". I don't like "natural
> learning" either, for a different reason.
>
> Anyway.
>
> Around here, no one is leading, and no one is following, most of the time.
> We do what we do. Sometimes we are all doing different things, sometimes
> we are doing the same things separately, sometimes together.
>
> It's not like the kids say they are interested in something, and I'm
> following them around, listening for that comment or question, at which
> time I jump in with resources. I think people sometimes get that
> impression of unschooling.
>
> Usually, it's more like this:
>
> My oldest has a computer across the room from where mine is. Since we are
> both in there at the same time some of the time, we might talk while we
> work. Or he might be talking to a sibling while he does something, and I
> can hear them. Or he might come upstairs later and mention what he was
> doing, or suggest something he might like to do.
>
> Days later, maybe I'll be at a book store, and come across a book that
> reminds me of something he said. I might get it, if it sounds interesting.
> Or maybe I won't get it, but I'll tell him later that I saw it, and see
> what he thinks.
>
> He might come across something online that he knows I'm interested in and
> tell me.
>
> Recently, he looked at a webpage I coded, thought something was cool, and
> downloaded the sourcecode to use on his own page. I was glad to see it,
> since he has been so much help to me when I've needed to find code for
> something.
>
> Meanwhile, I've read a dozen books to the youngest, who has decided she
> wants more books with the moon in them, so in the back of my head, that
> thought is there, and if I come across any moon books, I'm likely to
> notice. We've been planning to go outside at the next full moon, and I may
> try to find that book- Walk When The Moon is Full and read that before we
> go, or maybe not. We might get out the telescope, or not. Maybe we'll
> sleep outside.
>
> The roses have just started blooming so we'll be taking pictures of them
> later for a friend who is interested in them- and that reminds me, we need
> to plant the flowers we want to grow for drying. We also need to get the
> outdoor water fixed so we don't have to carry water to everything in this
> dry weather.
>
> And so it goes, our lives, from one thing to another, flowing without much
> effort. My life, my kids' lives, my husband's life. Sometimes on our own,
> sometimes as a group. No one is really leading, we're all meandering.
>
> Maybe I'll start using the phrase "interest-flow learning".
>
> Linda
>
> --
> Linda Wyatt
> hilinda@...
> http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda
> Learning everywhere, all the time.
> Algebra before breakfast
> "A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be
> mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown

Brown

Karen and all

> I am curious what ages your children were when most of you started
> "unschooling", however each of you may define it.

One of the many special things about New Zealand :-) is the Playcenter movement
which started back during WW2 to support mothers with young children whose
husbands were away fighting. Playcentre is a preschool coop which believes in
child - led learning (there's that phrase again) and I started going with my
oldest son when he was 2. Unfortunately, I was a slow learner, so poor Greg had
to suffer a more structured preschool, and 7 weeks at school before I gave in to
the inevitable. (That was 13 years ago.)

I have to admit that I'm not always true to unschooling - I do panic every now
and then and start pushing - but the kids are used to this and wait till I calm
down a bit and then tell me where to get off!

> Just by virtue
> of the fact you have chosen to homeschool and unschool, you have dictated
> *to a certain extent* how your child will view and interact with the world.
> Parents make choices every day, even prenatal choices that affect the child.
> It can't be helped! It's called the environment. No one can escape it
> completely. Give yourselves a break!

You're so right. But rather than tell your kids what to learn, broaden their
environment, expose them to the things you think they should learn, and if they
are interested, they'll take it from there. If they aren't interested now,
they'll remember that exposure later when / if they actually do need it.

Carol

Linda Wyatt

> From: Hsmotgo@...
>
> No one gives specific examples, just "play with numbers"
> how does that help?

It helps because one of the most important things is being comfortable,
really comfortable, with numbers and how they relate to each other. Basic
arithmetic needs to be something that not only can you do, it's part of how
you think.

> I never played with numbers so don't understand.


Play games. Play with dice. Add numbers in your head. Factor numbers in
your head. Play with things like dividing something, then multiplying it
to get back where you started. This sounds simplistic, but it really
matters.

> " lots of music stuff," my kids play three instruments, how does this
> help with higher math?

Music and math share the concepts of recognizing and creating patterns.
Really. Music theory is math in a different form.

Look at improvisational music- how is that done? The player has to know
what key he is in, and what that means, and how to stay within that
framework- or if he wants, where to go outside of it and still have it
sound good. The listener has a part in this, too, because part of what
makes music beautiful and meaningful is an intrinsic understanding of music
theory on a basic level- what sounds in tune, what sounds discordant, where
things sound like they should be going. You can hear a chord resolve in
your head, even if it doesn't actually resolve in the music, because you
expect it to be that way. Good musicians play with your expectations, and
surprise you some of the time. Your experience of the music involves what
you've just heard, keeping it in your head, and adding to it the new sounds
happening, and making them relate in your mind.

Did you think I was going to fall back on the time signature as the math in
music? Sure, that's part of it, the rhythms, but it's the notes and chords
and their relationships to each other that is part of higher math.

Listen to counterpoint, baroque music, minimalist music. Listen to music
in different tonal systems (like Gamelan or different Eastern music forms).
Sing arpeggios. Play duets, or rounds. Try having two people play the
same piece, but one play it twice through, twice the speed- how do they
sound together that way? Why?

Go look up the Pythagorean Scale, see where it came from, how it changed
and why. Then listen to early Bach. Listen to my favorite Bach- The Well
Tempered Clavier (where did the name come from, and what does it mean? Why
is that important?) Try to find a performance on pre-Pythagorean
instruments.

I really am beginning to believe that part of this culture's problem with
math fear and deficiency is that the educational system largely ignores
music and art. Back during the time of the most famous mathematicians,
music was considered one of the most important academic subjects. I think
listening to and interpreting music, lots of different styles, is part of
what helps our brains learn and practice making the connections they use in
math. Trying to teach math without that background is almost like
expecting a child to speak who has bever been spoken to.



> I am not being contrary, I am SERIOUS here. I want to let my
> children have a happy learning experience, and if I am the culprit of them
> not having that, then I want to do something about it.

You are not the culprit- more likely, what was done to you as a child is
the culprit.

You can undo it, just like your children can if they have had negative math
experiences.

The book "Family Math" is a good starting place. (I hear they have a
couple of new versions out, one for younger kids, and one for older, but I
haven't seen those) It's full of games. Try some. Start with easy ones,
progress through whichever catch your interest. The important thing is to
have fun with them. Once you're having fun, think about what you're doing,
really think- why do things work that way? What is easier or harder for
you? Why? Where are your personal math blocks?

You may want to doodle while you think, or draw or sing or talk with
someone or whatever helps stuff to stick in your head.

One of my favorite things to do, and to tell people to do, is to play with
converting numbers into different forms. Go from decimal to fraction to
percentage to ratio and back again. Get comfortable with numbers in their
different forms, so that you can take advantage of which form most easily
lends itself to a certain situation. (Decimals are good for money, for
example) Be as comfortable manipulating fractions as anything else.

See math as a game, not a chore. A playground. A tool, if you have to, or
if you like tools.

Go look at stuff like fractals and complex geometric shapes, see the
intricacy and beauty of math.



--
Linda Wyatt
hilinda@...
http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda
Learning everywhere, all the time.
Algebra before breakfast
"A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be
mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown

Linda Wyatt

> From: "Dale & Karen Jones-Waddell" <katejw@...>

> My husband's comment was in reference to needing some textbooks and teaching
> for higher math--not that required to paint a house, but that required for
> jobs such as engineering of all types. NO, I was not saying cram it down
> every kid's throat. I WAS saying if a child wanted to do that, then
> wouldn't one have to be taught.

And I'll still say no, someone would not have to be taught. They very well
could be taught, if that's the route they want to go, but it is not an
absolute necessity. I'm not saying that being taught is a terrible thing-
only that it is not the necessity that many people think it is. It is not
the only way.

I learned calculus on my own. I was in a foreign country and my math needs
did not match up with the schedule in the school I attended, so I had
independent study all year.


> Do you really think unschooling is so hot,

Where is this coming from?


> that you can teach (oh excuse me, learn) engineering in 18 months, when it
> takes 5 years in college.

When what takes 5 years?

"Engineering" is a might broad vague term. What exactly do you mean by it?

> You think those kids sit around and party all the
> time?

Some of them do. Trust me.

Growing up and living in the same town as a major University with a well
respected Engineering school, I don't have quite the awe of it that many
people have.

> You think their teachers have their heads in the wrong place?

No. I just think that teachers are only one of many ways for someone to
learn something.

> So
> it seems its okay to brag about being a real unschooler until they are old
> enough to choose engineering, then hey, they chose it, now they can go to
> college and teachers are good guys because the kid chose them. Huh?

I haven't said that, has anyone?

FWIW, my husband is a software engineer, and he is self taught. He did not
learn his skills in college. I expect that my two boys may go the same
way, and not choose college.


>
> BRAHAHAHAHA. Argue on. Scapegoat on. Paint me in a box until I scream
> "Uncle!" But your barking up the wrong tree.

You seem to be taking things way too personally. No one is making you a
scapegoat, they're responding to the issues in your posts. If you don't
want responses to your posts, perhaps you shouldn't post them?


Linda

--
Linda Wyatt
hilinda@...
http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda
Learning everywhere, all the time.
Algebra before breakfast
"A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be
mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/1999 6:15:44 PM, katejw@... wrote:

<<You caught me on the newness of the list! I had forgotten we got it from a
link from another homeschool list and that it was a NEW list! >>

So does that mean there are people here who have come on the list without
having gone to www.unschooling.com and read there first?

That would explain a lot, if so!! <g>

I assumed that everyone here had been to that site, understood the underlying
philosophy, and had signed on to this list because they had read everything
at the main site and just needed MORE.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/1999 6:15:44 PM, katejw@... wrote:

<< I'm seeing this is quite a debate of semantics more than anything else. >>

Terminology and semantics are what thinking and analysis are about.
If we're not clarifying terms, we can't really have a discussion about
beliefs.
Without clear beliefs, what basis will we have for what we're doing?

If people want to just follow a pre-set pattern without understanding fully
why and what and how, that's not unschooling. Each unschooling parent (or at
least one in each family) NEEDS to understand the difference between teaching
and learning. They NEED to think hard and long and carefully about what they
believe about what is "necessary." It doesn't have to be done in advance of
beginning to unschool. It's part of the whole process. But deciding in
advance that such things are unimportant is, I believe, part of a recipe for
eventual failure. How can we defend what we don't understand?

Unschooling is all about how learning works. It seems to me that what books
you have in the house, or how often you go to a museum, or whether you allow
unlimited computer games isn't nearly as important as whether you believe
that people learn unceasingly for fun when their desire isn't destroyed
somehow.

I don't think it's just semantics at all.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/1999 7:52:27 PM, you wrote:

<<As far as Algebra and Higher Math... We use these in real life... so what
if
we don't know the theorems (sp?) and "rules"? When trying to figure out how
much paint we need to cover a 2000 sf house, we use algebra. When trying to
decide how big a tarp we need to cover our cords of wood, we use algebra...
>>

My kids wouldn't know how to write out the equation at all (when they want to
someday, it will take about ten minutes to explain all the symbols and
positioning) but they can in their heads figure out with marty's allowance or
Kirby's (different rates) how many weeks it will take to buy a certain thing
new or used (two different factors). And they can figure the tax in their
heads while they're at it. ALL that is algebra. Most of the kids in school
getting A's in algebra wouldn't know what it was actually applicable to in
their own real lives, they're just solving "problems" already set up on
paper. They're doing calculations.

I've told this story before, so sorry for the repetition.

I was complaining to my husband one night that I HATED math in school, all
except the word problems. I loved those, but there would only be two per
exercise, and 38 of the stupid number problems.

He said "Those are the only problems there. The others are answers. All
that's left is the calculation."

OH! So I DID like mathematics, I just didn't like the
numbers-without-words-or-purpose "exercise" parts.

Last night a friend was telling me that he was baffled by trigonometry in
college. Nobody could tell him what it was good for. Then he took an
electrical engineering class, and the DC part was all linear algebra, and
when they got to AC it was TRIGONOMETRY and he was thrilled and THEN he got
trigonometry, because he had an application for it.

I've studied literature, history, folklore, anthropology, I do music as
hobby--recorder, guitar, singing. I sew. I play with philosophy. I have
never one time in my life needed trigonometry.

If I did, I'd know how to learn it, though!

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/1999 9:02:01 PM, careermom@... wrote:

<< Sometimes I think that unschooling looks easy on the outside, but is
really more work than traditional homeschooling, and wonder if I have the
energy
to do it!>>

It's not more work, but it's more mental work to get started. For
traditional, you can write a check, look at the calendar and say "DO THIS."

Once you get established in unschooling, it becomes effortless.

I know martial arts teachers say all the time "this will become effortless"
but that's after ten years of sweating your butt off! This is not NEARLY
in that range of difficulty. Honest.

This list, if it is kept to topic, will be a perfect dojo for learning
unschooling. There are some very experienced unschoolers here who write well
and who are willing to commit a goodly amount of time and energy to helping
the newcomers here. When I asked that the list be kept to topic, it was out
of a well-founded fear that some of the best unschoolers here would drop off
the list if it remained chatty about curriculum. IF it turns out that people
came here directly without awareness of what unschooling really is, the best
thing would be for them to read more and post less until they decide if they
really want to be on an unschooling list.

Some have said that's wrong of me to ask.
More have said it's good.

If you went into a karate school and started boxing or break dancing they'd
throw you out. If you go to a brass band practice with a violin, they're
not going to let you play with them no matter HOW good you are. You can't go
to a bow shoot with a rifle.

This is a very worthy topic I hope many here will pursue:
<<<< Sometimes I think that unschooling looks easy on the outside, but is
really more work than traditional homeschooling, and wonder if I have the
energy
to do it!>>>>

Sandra