Balance was Re: "a taste of his own medicine" andother cruel ideas
Alison Broadbent
Sandra wrote:
have bad water and no filter."
I think how we're going to get to a balance is being sensitive to our and
our kids needs and wants and being honest.. We can't find our way in that
unless we can honor these. Telling someone that certain actions (like going
to the store after dark) shouldn't be part of what one does for one's child,
is kind of arbitrary and I don't understand the usefulness. These are not
things that can be listed and taught. I imagine one person's trip to the
market is other's baking banana bread. Who's to say which is really asking
too much except the person involved. It's an action that would be
appreciated and if the parent was feeling lively at that point in the
evening, why not. Each of our limits is different and can also change from
day to day.
I imagine that your desire is to clarify that it's not all or nothing.
There's a balance but the balance has to come from self knowledge, I think.
Alison
>"The only things people should really be expected to go out for after dark, Ithink, are necessities like toilet paper, maybe milk, drinking water if they
have bad water and no filter."
>" The extremes aren't so good. Neither deprivation nor crazily trying to_________________________________________________________
>provide everything a child has ever seen or imagined is going to work."
I think how we're going to get to a balance is being sensitive to our and
our kids needs and wants and being honest.. We can't find our way in that
unless we can honor these. Telling someone that certain actions (like going
to the store after dark) shouldn't be part of what one does for one's child,
is kind of arbitrary and I don't understand the usefulness. These are not
things that can be listed and taught. I imagine one person's trip to the
market is other's baking banana bread. Who's to say which is really asking
too much except the person involved. It's an action that would be
appreciated and if the parent was feeling lively at that point in the
evening, why not. Each of our limits is different and can also change from
day to day.
I imagine that your desire is to clarify that it's not all or nothing.
There's a balance but the balance has to come from self knowledge, I think.
Alison
J. Stauffer
<<<< imagine that your desire is to clarify that it's not all or nothing.
This is absolutely true. I think the key is to look inside and make sure
the "no" isn't just kneejerk. Is there a reason I don't want to go to the
store? Is there a reason I don't want to make different breakfasts?
What are those reasons? Are they real or just old scripts made from wives'
tales?
When we started down this road, I had to question myself all day, everyday.
It was tiring. But as time has passed, I question myself less and less.
The boundaries are clearer as to what we are trying to do here. But the
unschooling at my house isn't going to look like anyone else's because we
are different than other families....and that's a good thing.
Julie S.
> There's a balance but the balance has to come from self knowledge, Ithink.>>>>
This is absolutely true. I think the key is to look inside and make sure
the "no" isn't just kneejerk. Is there a reason I don't want to go to the
store? Is there a reason I don't want to make different breakfasts?
What are those reasons? Are they real or just old scripts made from wives'
tales?
When we started down this road, I had to question myself all day, everyday.
It was tiring. But as time has passed, I question myself less and less.
The boundaries are clearer as to what we are trying to do here. But the
unschooling at my house isn't going to look like anyone else's because we
are different than other families....and that's a good thing.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alison Broadbent" <abzb@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 11:54 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Balance was Re: "a taste of his own
medicine" andother cruel ideas
> Sandra wrote:
> >"The only things people should really be expected to go out for after
dark, I
> think, are necessities like toilet paper, maybe milk, drinking water if
they
> have bad water and no filter."
>
> >" The extremes aren't so good. Neither deprivation nor crazily trying to
> >provide everything a child has ever seen or imagined is going to work."
> _________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> I think how we're going to get to a balance is being sensitive to our and
> our kids needs and wants and being honest.. We can't find our way in that
> unless we can honor these. Telling someone that certain actions (like
going
> to the store after dark) shouldn't be part of what one does for one's
child,
> is kind of arbitrary and I don't understand the usefulness. These are not
> things that can be listed and taught. I imagine one person's trip to the
> market is other's baking banana bread. Who's to say which is really
asking
> too much except the person involved. It's an action that would be
> appreciated and if the parent was feeling lively at that point in the
> evening, why not. Each of our limits is different and can also change
from
> day to day.
>
> I imagine that your desire is to clarify that it's not all or nothing.
> There's a balance but the balance has to come from self knowledge, I
think.
>
> Alison
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/17/04 11:57:58 PM, abzb@... writes:
-=-Telling someone that certain actions (like going
to the store after dark) shouldn't be part of what one does for one's child,
is kind of arbitrary and I don't understand the usefulness. -=-
But I had written this:
<< "The only things people should really be expected to go out for after
dark, I
think, >>
Two qualifications:
"should be expected"
and
"I think"
What someone CHOOSES to do for one's child is not the same as what is
expected.
What I state as something I think is not the same as saying it shouldn't be
what other people do.
Someone was expressing having felt guilty for not leaving the house in the
dark to go and get a particular candy bar. I might do that and I might not (I
have gone to satisfy a whim, and other times I haven't; last night I nearly
went for tortillas at 11:00 p.m. and decided against it, and Marty used homemade
bread instead of the tortilla he would rather have had.)
If a person wants to do that, great.
If a person doesn't want to, I don't think guilt is a appropriate if it's
10:00 at night. We live two blocks from candy (closer if you want to pay
Hollywood Video/movie prices). Friends of ours live 15 miles on dirt roads from
candy or even milk and bread.
-=-hese are not
things that can be listed and taught. I imagine one person's trip to the
market is other's baking banana bread. Who's to say which is really asking
too much except the person involved. -=-
If a persons is feeling guilty assuming that the rest of the unschoolers here
would hop in the jeep and head out into the darkness because a kid said "Gosh
I wish I had a Snickers," it's worth it to me to suggest that others here
wouldn't do it either unless they just felt like a jeep ride.
-=-I imagine that your desire is to clarify that it's not all or nothing.
There's a balance but the balance has to come from self knowledge, I think.-=-
True, but some people tend to borrow others' behavior and try it on as part
of their self-knowledge. I was adjusting the sleeves on a borrowed garment,
maybe.
The answer is almost always "it depends."
Sandra
-=-Telling someone that certain actions (like going
to the store after dark) shouldn't be part of what one does for one's child,
is kind of arbitrary and I don't understand the usefulness. -=-
But I had written this:
<< "The only things people should really be expected to go out for after
dark, I
think, >>
Two qualifications:
"should be expected"
and
"I think"
What someone CHOOSES to do for one's child is not the same as what is
expected.
What I state as something I think is not the same as saying it shouldn't be
what other people do.
Someone was expressing having felt guilty for not leaving the house in the
dark to go and get a particular candy bar. I might do that and I might not (I
have gone to satisfy a whim, and other times I haven't; last night I nearly
went for tortillas at 11:00 p.m. and decided against it, and Marty used homemade
bread instead of the tortilla he would rather have had.)
If a person wants to do that, great.
If a person doesn't want to, I don't think guilt is a appropriate if it's
10:00 at night. We live two blocks from candy (closer if you want to pay
Hollywood Video/movie prices). Friends of ours live 15 miles on dirt roads from
candy or even milk and bread.
-=-hese are not
things that can be listed and taught. I imagine one person's trip to the
market is other's baking banana bread. Who's to say which is really asking
too much except the person involved. -=-
If a persons is feeling guilty assuming that the rest of the unschoolers here
would hop in the jeep and head out into the darkness because a kid said "Gosh
I wish I had a Snickers," it's worth it to me to suggest that others here
wouldn't do it either unless they just felt like a jeep ride.
-=-I imagine that your desire is to clarify that it's not all or nothing.
There's a balance but the balance has to come from self knowledge, I think.-=-
True, but some people tend to borrow others' behavior and try it on as part
of their self-knowledge. I was adjusting the sleeves on a borrowed garment,
maybe.
The answer is almost always "it depends."
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
<<If a persons is feeling guilty assuming that the rest of the unschoolers
here
would hop in the jeep and head out into the darkness because a kid said
"Gosh
I wish I had a Snickers," it's worth it to me to suggest that others here
wouldn't do it either unless they just felt like a jeep ride.>>
The problem over at our house is that any one of the three of us is likely
to say, "Gee I feel like a donut", and then the rest of us start thinking
about donuts, and next thing you know, darn it if we don't all pile into the
car at 1am and head for the 24 hour Winchell's up the road - or the giant
donut on the roof of that place that is near us.
We have been known to go on 25 mile trips to look for a toy Jayn wants, but
we do it in a spirit of adventure or fun, and sometimes we don't go, if we
are too tired or busy.
Robyn L. Coburn
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here
would hop in the jeep and head out into the darkness because a kid said
"Gosh
I wish I had a Snickers," it's worth it to me to suggest that others here
wouldn't do it either unless they just felt like a jeep ride.>>
The problem over at our house is that any one of the three of us is likely
to say, "Gee I feel like a donut", and then the rest of us start thinking
about donuts, and next thing you know, darn it if we don't all pile into the
car at 1am and head for the 24 hour Winchell's up the road - or the giant
donut on the roof of that place that is near us.
We have been known to go on 25 mile trips to look for a toy Jayn wants, but
we do it in a spirit of adventure or fun, and sometimes we don't go, if we
are too tired or busy.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 4/9/2004
Alison Broadbent
Sandra Dodd Wrote:
guilty about it. I was using that as an example of personal boundaries and
how I wouldn't do that bc I was too tired. What I said was:
options like creating something else or eating what we've got in the house.
So you were wanting me not to feel guilty about that and you were saying one
shouldn't be expected to go out at night except for necessities. I, not
feeling I had to do those things either, saw what you had written with,
shouldn't be expected to do that and then a list of things one should be
expected to go out for, as more a static thing. Over here is what one
should be expected to do and over here is what one shouldn't be. So I
didn't understand that as a support. Now I see how that got misunderstood.
Alison
>Someone was expressing having felt guilty for not leaving the house in theI think I got what happened. That was me saying that but I wasn't feeling
> dark to go and get a particular candy bar
guilty about it. I was using that as an example of personal boundaries and
how I wouldn't do that bc I was too tired. What I said was:
> I try to figure out where my limits are and speak of them. Not to get to NOtired to go out at 10 pm to get some candy that he wants. We'll discuss the
> for no good reason which is what I see all around me.....Sometimes I'm too too
options like creating something else or eating what we've got in the house.
So you were wanting me not to feel guilty about that and you were saying one
shouldn't be expected to go out at night except for necessities. I, not
feeling I had to do those things either, saw what you had written with,
shouldn't be expected to do that and then a list of things one should be
expected to go out for, as more a static thing. Over here is what one
should be expected to do and over here is what one shouldn't be. So I
didn't understand that as a support. Now I see how that got misunderstood.
Alison
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/19/04 8:00:42 AM, abzb@... writes:
<< I think I got what happened. That was me saying that but I wasn't feeling
guilty about it. I was using that as an example of personal boundaries and
how I wouldn't do that bc I was too tired. >>
Oh! <g>
Sorry then for assuming you were wanting soothing.
Never mind <g>.
Sandra
<< I think I got what happened. That was me saying that but I wasn't feeling
guilty about it. I was using that as an example of personal boundaries and
how I wouldn't do that bc I was too tired. >>
Oh! <g>
Sorry then for assuming you were wanting soothing.
Never mind <g>.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On May 19, 2004, at 4:08 AM, Alison Broadbent wrote:
gracious giving parenting that is promoted here, with parents becoming
doormats. There are people who don't "get" this idea - they hear it as
parents SHOULD/MUST jump up at 10 pm and run to the store to get a kid
a candy bar just because a kid says, "I want a candy bar." Because
MOSTLY we're talking to people in a society which is unkind and
ungenerous and demanding and belittling of children, we mostly talk
about doing MORE for children. But, once in a while we have to
backtrack and say, "Wait - we don't mean that every little whim has to
be satisfied at that moment." BUT it does mean not thinking of
everything a child desires as "a childish whim," too.
I went to visit Sandra in Albuquerque. She and Holly, who was 6 years
old, I think, picked me up at the airport. We talked a mile a minute as
we left the airport and Holly sat in the back seat and threw in a few
of her own thoughts here and there. I'd been with them and I heard two
things that really impressed me. One, Holly occasionally corrected
Sandra's statements - she'd sweetly speak up and say something like,
"Well, what he said exactly was this: .......," or "Mama, was that the
day we went swimming in the lake because if it was, then that was
Kirby, not Marty." <G> Now we ALL know how young kids sometimes correct
their parents in front of other people, right? And, as the adult, that
can be irritating because a lot of times the details that they correct
aren't important to the point of the story. So - how do people usually
react? Usually with GREAT irritation and impatience and even
embarrassment.
Sandra said, "Holly has a great memory for details and helps me get
them right." Then she turned to Holly several times in the next few
minutes and asked her a question about the details, "Holly, who was it
that said .....?" "Holly, what exactly was it that Kirby was trying to
do that day that.....?" Holly didn't end up a rude and interrupting
socially inept kid because Sandra didn't shush her and tell her not to
interrupt adult's conversations and so on. She ended up an absolutely
charming kid who is socially adept and a pleasure to be around because
Sandra respected her and included her.
The other thing that happened in that drive from the airport is that
Holly said, from the back seat, "I'd sure like some plums." Not whining
or begging, not demanding, just matter-of-fact about it. Sandra said to
me, "Do you mind us stopping and buying some plums?" I said no (in
fact, I LOVE to go to grocery stores when I'm traveling to parts of the
country I haven't been) and so we stopped and went in and looked for
plums (this was Memorial weekend, early for plums) but couldn't find
any. So we went back to the car and Sandra said, "We can try another
grocery store." So we did. No plums. She said, "Well, Holly, there is
one more grocery store that we could try." So we did and they had
plums. Holly filled a bag with them and ate some on the way home in the
back of the car. She thanked her mom and said how GOOD they were and so
on, several times. It didn't matter to us that we drove around
Albuquerque a little, I was happy to see it and we were going to talk
no matter where we were. Did Holly grow up to be a "spoiled brat?"
Hardly! She's generous and thoughtful. And sensible in her
expectations, too.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> So you were wanting me not to feel guilty about that and you wereThere are always people who confuse the kind of kind and gentle and
> saying one
> shouldn't be expected to go out at night except for necessities.
gracious giving parenting that is promoted here, with parents becoming
doormats. There are people who don't "get" this idea - they hear it as
parents SHOULD/MUST jump up at 10 pm and run to the store to get a kid
a candy bar just because a kid says, "I want a candy bar." Because
MOSTLY we're talking to people in a society which is unkind and
ungenerous and demanding and belittling of children, we mostly talk
about doing MORE for children. But, once in a while we have to
backtrack and say, "Wait - we don't mean that every little whim has to
be satisfied at that moment." BUT it does mean not thinking of
everything a child desires as "a childish whim," too.
I went to visit Sandra in Albuquerque. She and Holly, who was 6 years
old, I think, picked me up at the airport. We talked a mile a minute as
we left the airport and Holly sat in the back seat and threw in a few
of her own thoughts here and there. I'd been with them and I heard two
things that really impressed me. One, Holly occasionally corrected
Sandra's statements - she'd sweetly speak up and say something like,
"Well, what he said exactly was this: .......," or "Mama, was that the
day we went swimming in the lake because if it was, then that was
Kirby, not Marty." <G> Now we ALL know how young kids sometimes correct
their parents in front of other people, right? And, as the adult, that
can be irritating because a lot of times the details that they correct
aren't important to the point of the story. So - how do people usually
react? Usually with GREAT irritation and impatience and even
embarrassment.
Sandra said, "Holly has a great memory for details and helps me get
them right." Then she turned to Holly several times in the next few
minutes and asked her a question about the details, "Holly, who was it
that said .....?" "Holly, what exactly was it that Kirby was trying to
do that day that.....?" Holly didn't end up a rude and interrupting
socially inept kid because Sandra didn't shush her and tell her not to
interrupt adult's conversations and so on. She ended up an absolutely
charming kid who is socially adept and a pleasure to be around because
Sandra respected her and included her.
The other thing that happened in that drive from the airport is that
Holly said, from the back seat, "I'd sure like some plums." Not whining
or begging, not demanding, just matter-of-fact about it. Sandra said to
me, "Do you mind us stopping and buying some plums?" I said no (in
fact, I LOVE to go to grocery stores when I'm traveling to parts of the
country I haven't been) and so we stopped and went in and looked for
plums (this was Memorial weekend, early for plums) but couldn't find
any. So we went back to the car and Sandra said, "We can try another
grocery store." So we did. No plums. She said, "Well, Holly, there is
one more grocery store that we could try." So we did and they had
plums. Holly filled a bag with them and ate some on the way home in the
back of the car. She thanked her mom and said how GOOD they were and so
on, several times. It didn't matter to us that we drove around
Albuquerque a little, I was happy to see it and we were going to talk
no matter where we were. Did Holly grow up to be a "spoiled brat?"
Hardly! She's generous and thoughtful. And sensible in her
expectations, too.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Alison Broadbent
Sandra Dodd wrote:
Alison
> Sorry then for assuming you were wanting soothing.Well I'm sure I'll need that sometime. Glad that it's at hand!
Alison