J. Stauffer

<<<<< Not everyone will have the same problems so some techniques won't
apply. No
> one technique will work for everyone who has a particular problem. But
it's
> good for the ideas to be out there swirling around because they might help
> someone.>>>>>

Once again, when I started this conversation it was in reply to a post that
said "certain phrases don't exist outside of situations meant to put
children in their place."

The implications of that are that you are a mean mom if you say them. All I
have ever said is that I think the phrases aren't limited to just putting
kids in their place. I was arguing against the black and white of it. That
is all. I am not defending the phrase (its not one I have ever even used, I
don't think) I just think the "either-or" is simplistic. Thats all.

I was not the one wanting to limit ideas. I was the one posting just the
opposite. I was the one posting that people may have different connotations
associated with phrases based on their history....like if a dog gets shocked
by an electric fence he will give it a wide berth, whether or not there is
any electricity behind it. Another dog will play and play near and over the
fence if he has never felt the electricity.

If you have not experienced phrases as a put down to children, you may well
use them without the pain others might associate with them. Basic
psychology.

Again, obviously a difference of opinion.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "a taste of his own
medicine"andothercruel ideas


> on 5/17/04 12:38 AM, J. Stauffer at jnjstau@... wrote:
>
> >> But to say, "I am NOT a short-order cook," implies that the person
> >> asking is being unreasonable. It implies that they are trying to take
> >> advantage of you. It makes the child "wrong" in asking.>>>>
> >
> > Guess I just have much thicker skin. Differences of opinion.
>
> But how does your inability to hear it as negative or inexperience with
> "short-order cook" being negative help others unschool or become more
aware
> parents?
>
> It's like pointing out during a discussion meant to help people get past
the
> barriers that using the word teach can throw in front of their path to
> unschooling, "Well, I don't have a problem with the word teach."
>
> Not everyone will have the same problems so some techniques won't apply.
No
> one technique will work for everyone who has a particular problem. But
it's
> good for the ideas to be out there swirling around because they might help
> someone.
>
> > in a joking
> > manner after spending time cooking breakfast while his mom was sleeping
and
> > her wanting something just as he was starting to clean up.
>
> Even if he was joking, it was coming from a place of "You're asking too
> much," even if he then felt it was okay to do as much as was being asked.
> How was his mother to know all the energy he'd been spending while she was
> asleep? It's a way of saying "You should just be able to know what a
drained
> state I'm in and not even bother to ask."
>
> His mother probably got what he meant since she's an adult and has
> undoubtedly ended up in similar situations. But a child doesn't have that
> understanding and can't have it until she's grown and has spent all
morning
> cooking or doing things for others. The child is just suddenly in a
> situation where she's expressed what she needs as she usually does and for
> some mysterious reason the person she's asking gives her a reply that
> implies she shouldn't have asked and she should have realized she
shouldn't
> have asked.
>
> For a child to not hear that as a rebuke or to understand that "not a
short
> order cook" is just code for "I'm exhausted," they need an atmosphere of
> hearing people express their real feelings and offering alternatives. They
> need to hear things like "I'm really tired. Could I get you something
> simpler?"
>
> How to create that atmosphere would be more useful than "That doesn't
bother
> me." Because if it doesn't bother you, it probably came out of an
atmosphere
> of people being honest with their feelings. And it would be useful for
> people to see how that atmosphere gets created.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

pam sorooshian

On May 17, 2004, at 7:09 AM, J. Stauffer wrote:

> Once again, when I started this conversation it was in reply to a post
> that
> said "certain phrases don't exist outside of situations meant to put
> children in their place."
>
> The implications of that are that you are a mean mom if you say them.

Yikes. I openly admitted to having said, "I'm not a short-order cook,"
but I am not a mean mom. I said a thing that has a meanspirited
connotation but still..... takes more than that to make somebody a
"mean mom." Wonderfully nice moms sometimes blow it!! Especially when
they go on automatic-pilot and use the kinds of phrases that are
typically used to belittle (gently or harshly) children.

-pam


National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/17/04 8:15:03 AM, jnjstau@... writes:

<< .like if a dog gets shocked

by an electric fence he will give it a wide berth, whether or not there is

any electricity behind it. Another dog will play and play near and over the

fence if he has never felt the electricity.

>>

This example makes my point.
The cold phrases are the electricity.
They're worth avoiding, and for those who don't know they're harmful, a kid
can get shocked without the parent meaning to do it.

-=-If you have not experienced phrases as a put down to children, you may well

use them without the pain others might associate with them. Basic

psychology.-=-

I think you can use them without knowing they can hurt others unless you
consciously examine all that you say.

Sandra

J. Stauffer

<<<<This example makes my point.
> The cold phrases are the electricity.
> They're worth avoiding, and for those who don't know they're harmful, a
kid
> can get shocked without the parent meaning to do it.>>>>

LOL. In my example, I meant words to be the fence and the meanness behind
some of them to be the electricity.

No wonder we don't see eye to eye. <grin>

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "a taste of his own
medicine"andothercruel ideas


>
> In a message dated 5/17/04 8:15:03 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
>
> << .like if a dog gets shocked
>
> by an electric fence he will give it a wide berth, whether or not there is
>
> any electricity behind it. Another dog will play and play near and over
the
>
> fence if he has never felt the electricity.
>
> >>
>
> This example makes my point.
> The cold phrases are the electricity.
> They're worth avoiding, and for those who don't know they're harmful, a
kid
> can get shocked without the parent meaning to do it.
>
> -=-If you have not experienced phrases as a put down to children, you may
well
>
> use them without the pain others might associate with them. Basic
>
> psychology.-=-
>
> I think you can use them without knowing they can hurt others unless you
> consciously examine all that you say.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/17/04 11:25:22 AM, jnjstau@... writes:

<< LOL. In my example, I meant words to be the fence and the meanness behind

some of them to be the electricity.


-=-No wonder we don't see eye to eye. <grin> >>

Right.

Because meanness is NOT in the intent. It's in the perception.

Electricity shocks people whether the person who wired the fence up meant for
them to touch it or not.

A harmful thing is a harmful thing regardless of the known feelings of the
perpetrator/user.

Sandra

Kelly Lenhart

>How to create that atmosphere would be more useful than "That doesn't
bother
>me." Because if it doesn't bother you, it probably came out of an
atmosphere
>of people being honest with their feelings. And it would be useful for
>people to see how that atmosphere gets created.
>Joyce


Thank you.

I've been thinking all day of how to explain the way my son and I sometimes
sound. We name call and are totally obnoxious to each other. It's a game
and it's based on the realization that we can say anything and it's ok. But
I couldn't get across, any time I thought about it, the idea that there has
to be that trust and honesty to make those jokes ok.

We are still on the path, as it were, and recently had a HUGE fight. His
wants and my wants got in the way of each other and I got angry and he got
stubborn and frankly, he was right. -sigh-

Later I asked him if maybe we shouldn't be at home together, if maybe it
wasn't working. I was feeling defeated at the 'backsliding" as it were.
But he said no, even our worst days were better than school and the way
things were. And he meant it.

So I may still f-up sometimes, but we are getting there.

Kelly