Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "a taste of his own medicine" andother cruel ideas
J. Stauffer
<<< When it's said to the child and the child hears resentfulness, does it
always know ahead of time how others are going to hear things.
I have heard moms say the sweetest things to their child with the ugliest
intent and I have heard moms say the roughest things to their child with the
sweetest intent.
I think if your relationship is a solid, good, loving one, most people hear
the intent rather than the specific language.
When my kids were little, they went to a nursery at church. The woman
working there was anything but gentle with the kids. She would say things
like "I'm going to pinch your head off if you do that again." etc..
I was somewhat flabbergasted. The kids absolutely loved her. They saw past
her words and into her heart. Just a thought.
Julie S.
> matter whether the mom is feeling resentful or whether she's saying whatOf course, what is heard is what is important. The issue is how do we
> sounds like a reasonable remark to her?>>>>
always know ahead of time how others are going to hear things.
I have heard moms say the sweetest things to their child with the ugliest
intent and I have heard moms say the roughest things to their child with the
sweetest intent.
I think if your relationship is a solid, good, loving one, most people hear
the intent rather than the specific language.
When my kids were little, they went to a nursery at church. The woman
working there was anything but gentle with the kids. She would say things
like "I'm going to pinch your head off if you do that again." etc..
I was somewhat flabbergasted. The kids absolutely loved her. They saw past
her words and into her heart. Just a thought.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "a taste of his own medicine" andother
cruel ideas
> on 5/13/04 12:15 PM, J. Stauffer at jnjstau@... wrote:
>
> > When someone says "I'm not a short-order
> > cook", I assume they simply mean they don't want to cook a bunch of
seperate
> > meals.....not that they feel resentful and mean towards their child.
>
> When it's said to the child and the child hears resentfulness, does it
> matter whether the mom is feeling resentful or whether she's saying what
> sounds like a reasonable remark to her?
>
> I said "That's your mess. You'll need to clean it up," to my daughter when
> she was small and it sounded like a reasonable fact of life: that we're
> responsible for our own messes. But when she said it to me about something
I
> spilled it didn't sound reasonable. It sounded mean and I'm sure that's
> exactly how I sounded to her.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/14/04 9:41:28 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< <<< When it's said to the child and the child hears resentfulness, does it
always know ahead of time how others are going to hear things.
-=-I have heard moms say the sweetest things to their child with the ugliest
intent and I have heard moms say the roughest things to their child with the
sweetest intent. -=-
But the phrase "I'm not a short order cook" is NOT something someone would
come up with spontaneously and sweetly. They will say it because they've heard
it. And it comes with atttude and baggage, and on top of its words it says
some version of "You will eat what I fix you or you will make your own food or
go hungry."
Even if the child has never heard that phrase, the parent must have.
And if the parent has heard that phrase used on her, I think it would be
better for her to use her own words than to parrot mean parents of the past.
There are other ways to say that.
If she's not thinking of another way, she's using a whole quotation from a
put-down set of phrases.
-=- She would say things
like "I'm going to pinch your head off if you do that again." etc..
-=-I was somewhat flabbergasted. The kids absolutely loved her. They saw
past
her words and into her heart. Just a thought.-=-
Even kind hearted people should listen to what they're saying.
One of the nicest people ever in my life babysat Kirby once when he was two
or three, just long enough for me and Keith to go to the movies. Kirby always
liked him, still does. There were other young adults there too, this guy's
girlfriend and roommate and another friend or two.
When we came back, Jeff immediately confessed a horrible incident. He said,
"I spanked Kirby." I could tell he was NOT happy to have done it or report
it. I asked why, and he said he wouldn't stop doing something or other, and
Jeff had said if he didn't stop he would swat him, and Kirby didn't stop so he
swatted him. He said he HAD to since he had said he would, but he wished he
hadn't said it.
While the story was being told, Kirby was perfectly happy and comfortable,
the others there were all happy, and only Jeff was in distress. I smiled and
shook my head and said "What if you had said 'If you don't stop doing that I'll
kill you?'"
He got it right away.
I told him it's better to change your mind and say "I don't know why I said
that, sorry," and just find something better for the kid to do than to stick
with a bad plan.
So the nursery lady didn't really pinch their heads off, but she gave them
the image of the threat of head removal, and that's not as sweet as she could've
been.
If we settle for better-than-parents, we won't get to best-we-could-be.
Sandra
<< <<< When it's said to the child and the child hears resentfulness, does it
> matter whether the mom is feeling resentful or whether she's saying what-=-Of course, what is heard is what is important. The issue is how do we
> sounds like a reasonable remark to her?>>>>
always know ahead of time how others are going to hear things.
-=-I have heard moms say the sweetest things to their child with the ugliest
intent and I have heard moms say the roughest things to their child with the
sweetest intent. -=-
But the phrase "I'm not a short order cook" is NOT something someone would
come up with spontaneously and sweetly. They will say it because they've heard
it. And it comes with atttude and baggage, and on top of its words it says
some version of "You will eat what I fix you or you will make your own food or
go hungry."
Even if the child has never heard that phrase, the parent must have.
And if the parent has heard that phrase used on her, I think it would be
better for her to use her own words than to parrot mean parents of the past.
There are other ways to say that.
If she's not thinking of another way, she's using a whole quotation from a
put-down set of phrases.
-=- She would say things
like "I'm going to pinch your head off if you do that again." etc..
-=-I was somewhat flabbergasted. The kids absolutely loved her. They saw
past
her words and into her heart. Just a thought.-=-
Even kind hearted people should listen to what they're saying.
One of the nicest people ever in my life babysat Kirby once when he was two
or three, just long enough for me and Keith to go to the movies. Kirby always
liked him, still does. There were other young adults there too, this guy's
girlfriend and roommate and another friend or two.
When we came back, Jeff immediately confessed a horrible incident. He said,
"I spanked Kirby." I could tell he was NOT happy to have done it or report
it. I asked why, and he said he wouldn't stop doing something or other, and
Jeff had said if he didn't stop he would swat him, and Kirby didn't stop so he
swatted him. He said he HAD to since he had said he would, but he wished he
hadn't said it.
While the story was being told, Kirby was perfectly happy and comfortable,
the others there were all happy, and only Jeff was in distress. I smiled and
shook my head and said "What if you had said 'If you don't stop doing that I'll
kill you?'"
He got it right away.
I told him it's better to change your mind and say "I don't know why I said
that, sorry," and just find something better for the kid to do than to stick
with a bad plan.
So the nursery lady didn't really pinch their heads off, but she gave them
the image of the threat of head removal, and that's not as sweet as she could've
been.
If we settle for better-than-parents, we won't get to best-we-could-be.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On May 14, 2004, at 10:36 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
cranky about fixing different foods - I was just sort of casually
commenting that I was feeling a bit like a short-order cook. I was fine
with it - we were having fun. BUT - the minute I heard that come out of
my mouth it had an uglyish should to it and I was sorry I'd even
uttered those words. And i do not think my own mother ever DID say it -
I just picked up that kid of negativity out of the air (probably from
books or tv or friends' mothers...who knows?)
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Even if the child has never heard that phrase, the parent must have.I said it once - heard it come out of my mouth. And I was NOT being
> And if the parent has heard that phrase used on her, I think it would
> be
> better for her to use her own words than to parrot mean parents of the
> past.
cranky about fixing different foods - I was just sort of casually
commenting that I was feeling a bit like a short-order cook. I was fine
with it - we were having fun. BUT - the minute I heard that come out of
my mouth it had an uglyish should to it and I was sorry I'd even
uttered those words. And i do not think my own mother ever DID say it -
I just picked up that kid of negativity out of the air (probably from
books or tv or friends' mothers...who knows?)
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
J. Stauffer
<<<<So the nursery lady didn't really pinch their heads off, but she gave
them
My kids don't do sweet all day, every day. I don't do sweet all day, every
day. I'm not always sweet with my dh either.
Doesn't mean I'm aiming for ugly.....but we joke, we say stuff that is
slightly edgy (not with the intent to hurt).
I remember a post Sandra made a long time ago about a young boy spending
time at their house and trying too hard to be "something"....she posted "I
told him 'Try not to be a prick'".
That isn't exactly sweet. Certainly doesn't sound it when it is written out
flat. But it was said with concern, with compassion for this boy. If I
remember correctly, the boy wasn't offended. Again, sweet wasn't the goal.
This is what I am talking about. If someone were raised by very unloving
parents who told him "Don't be a prick" or called him "you little prick".
The boy might have heard that as resentful and mean. But he was able to see
into Sandra's heart and know her intent.
There is a whole lot more going on in a conversation besides the specific
words being spoken. There is the history with the person, people you know's
history with that person, body language, inflection, history of that topic,
childhood of both people involved, etc..
Judging phrases as necessarily having positive or negative effects on people
no matter what isn't productive, I don't think. Looking at what you are
saying, checking other people's reactions to it, understanding your dynamics
with that person.....those things, I think, are much more productive.
IMHO
Julie S.
them
> the image of the threat of head removal, and that's not as sweet as shecould've
> been.>>>>>Absolutely true. But sweet isn't always the goal.
My kids don't do sweet all day, every day. I don't do sweet all day, every
day. I'm not always sweet with my dh either.
Doesn't mean I'm aiming for ugly.....but we joke, we say stuff that is
slightly edgy (not with the intent to hurt).
I remember a post Sandra made a long time ago about a young boy spending
time at their house and trying too hard to be "something"....she posted "I
told him 'Try not to be a prick'".
That isn't exactly sweet. Certainly doesn't sound it when it is written out
flat. But it was said with concern, with compassion for this boy. If I
remember correctly, the boy wasn't offended. Again, sweet wasn't the goal.
This is what I am talking about. If someone were raised by very unloving
parents who told him "Don't be a prick" or called him "you little prick".
The boy might have heard that as resentful and mean. But he was able to see
into Sandra's heart and know her intent.
There is a whole lot more going on in a conversation besides the specific
words being spoken. There is the history with the person, people you know's
history with that person, body language, inflection, history of that topic,
childhood of both people involved, etc..
Judging phrases as necessarily having positive or negative effects on people
no matter what isn't productive, I don't think. Looking at what you are
saying, checking other people's reactions to it, understanding your dynamics
with that person.....those things, I think, are much more productive.
IMHO
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "a taste of his own medicine" andother
cruel ideas
>
> In a message dated 5/14/04 9:41:28 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
>
> << <<< When it's said to the child and the child hears resentfulness, does
it
>
> > matter whether the mom is feeling resentful or whether she's saying what
>
> > sounds like a reasonable remark to her?>>>>
>
>
> -=-Of course, what is heard is what is important. The issue is how do we
>
> always know ahead of time how others are going to hear things.
>
>
> -=-I have heard moms say the sweetest things to their child with the
ugliest
>
> intent and I have heard moms say the roughest things to their child with
the
>
> sweetest intent. -=-
>
> But the phrase "I'm not a short order cook" is NOT something someone would
> come up with spontaneously and sweetly. They will say it because they've
heard
> it. And it comes with atttude and baggage, and on top of its words it
says
> some version of "You will eat what I fix you or you will make your own
food or
> go hungry."
>
> Even if the child has never heard that phrase, the parent must have.
> And if the parent has heard that phrase used on her, I think it would be
> better for her to use her own words than to parrot mean parents of the
past.
>
> There are other ways to say that.
> If she's not thinking of another way, she's using a whole quotation from a
> put-down set of phrases.
>
> -=- She would say things
>
> like "I'm going to pinch your head off if you do that again." etc..
>
>
> -=-I was somewhat flabbergasted. The kids absolutely loved her. They saw
> past
>
> her words and into her heart. Just a thought.-=-
>
> Even kind hearted people should listen to what they're saying.
>
> One of the nicest people ever in my life babysat Kirby once when he was
two
> or three, just long enough for me and Keith to go to the movies. Kirby
always
> liked him, still does. There were other young adults there too, this
guy's
> girlfriend and roommate and another friend or two.
>
> When we came back, Jeff immediately confessed a horrible incident. He
said,
> "I spanked Kirby." I could tell he was NOT happy to have done it or
report
> it. I asked why, and he said he wouldn't stop doing something or other,
and
> Jeff had said if he didn't stop he would swat him, and Kirby didn't stop
so he
> swatted him. He said he HAD to since he had said he would, but he wished
he
> hadn't said it.
>
> While the story was being told, Kirby was perfectly happy and comfortable,
> the others there were all happy, and only Jeff was in distress. I smiled
and
> shook my head and said "What if you had said 'If you don't stop doing that
I'll
> kill you?'"
>
> He got it right away.
>
> I told him it's better to change your mind and say "I don't know why I
said
> that, sorry," and just find something better for the kid to do than to
stick
> with a bad plan.
>
> So the nursery lady didn't really pinch their heads off, but she gave them
> the image of the threat of head removal, and that's not as sweet as she
could've
> been.
>
>
> If we settle for better-than-parents, we won't get to best-we-could-be.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/14/04 1:18:05 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< I remember a post Sandra made a long time ago about a young boy spending
time at their house and trying too hard to be "something"....she posted "I
told him 'Try not to be a prick'".
That isn't exactly sweet. Certainly doesn't sound it when it is written out
flat. >>
But I didn't say it in a kneejerk way because it was said to me. I
considered my words and my intend and put words together appropriate to that
situation. I don't think I've ever said it since.
My objection is to people thoughtlessly or unconsciously using phrases from
the archives of put-down parenting. I think it's a Very Bad thing to do.
<<There is a whole lot more going on in a conversation besides the specific
words being spoken. >>
But you seem to be defending a specific phrase which is NOT rearranged from
one conversation to another, and has been said for at least 50 years by parents
intending to put kids down. I object to none of the individual words in "I'm
not a short-order cook." I object to that specific word string being said to
any child who had an honest hope that her mother would make her some food she
liked, and no amount of "depends on the intent" will change my initial
objection and point which is that there are several phrases designed and repeated
for negative purposes and it will help unschoolers to hear them if they
accidently say them and to try to avoid them.
Some people talk all in cliches. It's lame.
We can strive to communicate directly and honestly and in our own words.
Sandra
Sandra
<< I remember a post Sandra made a long time ago about a young boy spending
time at their house and trying too hard to be "something"....she posted "I
told him 'Try not to be a prick'".
That isn't exactly sweet. Certainly doesn't sound it when it is written out
flat. >>
But I didn't say it in a kneejerk way because it was said to me. I
considered my words and my intend and put words together appropriate to that
situation. I don't think I've ever said it since.
My objection is to people thoughtlessly or unconsciously using phrases from
the archives of put-down parenting. I think it's a Very Bad thing to do.
<<There is a whole lot more going on in a conversation besides the specific
words being spoken. >>
But you seem to be defending a specific phrase which is NOT rearranged from
one conversation to another, and has been said for at least 50 years by parents
intending to put kids down. I object to none of the individual words in "I'm
not a short-order cook." I object to that specific word string being said to
any child who had an honest hope that her mother would make her some food she
liked, and no amount of "depends on the intent" will change my initial
objection and point which is that there are several phrases designed and repeated
for negative purposes and it will help unschoolers to hear them if they
accidently say them and to try to avoid them.
Some people talk all in cliches. It's lame.
We can strive to communicate directly and honestly and in our own words.
Sandra
Sandra
SHYRLEY WILLIAMS
Heather is off to town tomorrow with a friend for her first lone shopping trip. I'm a gibbering wreck! Friends mum will put them on the train and tell them what time train to get back and she'll pick them up.
Why am I so reluctant? At this age I went into town every Saturday and met my friends. And I walked there for 45 minutes alone. From the age of 8 I went to the shops alone or with friends and that was a half hour walk.
It seems so hard not to wrap her in cotton wool. How have others dealt with this? Heather is 12.
Shyrley
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why am I so reluctant? At this age I went into town every Saturday and met my friends. And I walked there for 45 minutes alone. From the age of 8 I went to the shops alone or with friends and that was a half hour walk.
It seems so hard not to wrap her in cotton wool. How have others dealt with this? Heather is 12.
Shyrley
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
Shyrley,
My daughter is 12 too. I let her go if a parent is going to be somewhere along, but thats because its a half hour drive for us.
I give her a cell phone so we can stay in touch, even when we go and we split up.
Kristen
My daughter is 12 too. I let her go if a parent is going to be somewhere along, but thats because its a half hour drive for us.
I give her a cell phone so we can stay in touch, even when we go and we split up.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SHYRLEY WILLIAMS
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 5:00 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Letting kids go
Heather is off to town tomorrow with a friend for her first lone shopping trip. I'm a gibbering wreck! Friends mum will put them on the train and tell them what time train to get back and she'll pick them up.
Why am I so reluctant? At this age I went into town every Saturday and met my friends. And I walked there for 45 minutes alone. From the age of 8 I went to the shops alone or with friends and that was a half hour walk.
It seems so hard not to wrap her in cotton wool. How have others dealt with this? Heather is 12.
Shyrley
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
My daughter was mad today because she felt there was "nothing to eat", even though I went for groceries on Tuesday.
Now, granted, I *didn't* get a lot, because we are low on money this week. But I'm SO tired of hearing that we have nothing to eat because so often we have PLENTY to eat!
I just said "I'm not going to listen to this right now" and went into the house. It is horribly hot out, we have no air conditioning, the dew point is probably 70. I'm miserable, she's miserable, etc.
So we went our separate ways for the day. She did some water fun stuff outside, I cleaned and took a nap.
Just this afternoon, as I was driving her up to her friend's house, I joked that she couldn't go swimming unless I could get in the pool too.
She laughed, and said "you're good mom" (not sarcastically, she meant it). I said, "yeah, I'm good, but I don't know how to get groceries" and winked to acknowledge her earlier frustration. I was just taking a stressful moment from earlier in the day and making it a non-stressful memory.
Then I said "you're a brat", with the term meant to be endearing. We were both smiling and it was a fun conversation.
The difference, and she knew it too, was that I wasn't serious. I was just acknowledging how human we really are, and how thats really ok on a hot miserable day.
I'm *really* glad I didn't blow up about her grocery comment.
Ahhhhh, and as I sit here, there is a breeze blowing in, a storm on the horizon, and all three kids are gone for the night. Hubby and I are going dancing and who knows what else.
Kristen, who just hung the laundry out on the line, and plans to let it there until it eventually dries LOL.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Now, granted, I *didn't* get a lot, because we are low on money this week. But I'm SO tired of hearing that we have nothing to eat because so often we have PLENTY to eat!
I just said "I'm not going to listen to this right now" and went into the house. It is horribly hot out, we have no air conditioning, the dew point is probably 70. I'm miserable, she's miserable, etc.
So we went our separate ways for the day. She did some water fun stuff outside, I cleaned and took a nap.
Just this afternoon, as I was driving her up to her friend's house, I joked that she couldn't go swimming unless I could get in the pool too.
She laughed, and said "you're good mom" (not sarcastically, she meant it). I said, "yeah, I'm good, but I don't know how to get groceries" and winked to acknowledge her earlier frustration. I was just taking a stressful moment from earlier in the day and making it a non-stressful memory.
Then I said "you're a brat", with the term meant to be endearing. We were both smiling and it was a fun conversation.
The difference, and she knew it too, was that I wasn't serious. I was just acknowledging how human we really are, and how thats really ok on a hot miserable day.
I'm *really* glad I didn't blow up about her grocery comment.
Ahhhhh, and as I sit here, there is a breeze blowing in, a storm on the horizon, and all three kids are gone for the night. Hubby and I are going dancing and who knows what else.
Kristen, who just hung the laundry out on the line, and plans to let it there until it eventually dries LOL.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<< But you seem to be defending a specific phrase which is NOT rearranged
from
trying to say so I can post clearly (now there's a concept <grin>)
I think when we tell people specific things to do and specific things to
say, or not to do or not to say....when we talk about specific words and
actions....it is almost like giving an unschooling recipe:
Like Step 1. Make as many different breakfasts as the people in your house
want.
Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook."
Step 3. Say.....<whatever>.
It seems legalistic. Just as unschooling looks different in every home but
follows the same basic guidelines of trust and acceptance, gentle parenting
looks different as well but follows the same basic guidelines of love and
respect being a 2 way street.
I agree that throwing a cliche out may not be the best approach to
parenting. It probably is worth examining. But just because it is a
cliche, perhaps even one that people have used as a put down doesn't
automatically make it taboo.
Most people would be offended if they were told "f**k you" by their spouse.
Dh and I have a relationship where being a smarta** is elevated to an
artform. So when I leave him speechless where all he can do is laugh and
say "f**k you", it is considered high praise, even if it is a cliche that
many consider a put down.
That is all I'm saying. Perhaps we will just disagree on this one.
Julie S.
from
> one conversation to another, and has been said for at least 50 years byparents
> intending to put kids down. >>>>>And I'm not really. So I spent the afternoon trying to figure out what I'm
trying to say so I can post clearly (now there's a concept <grin>)
I think when we tell people specific things to do and specific things to
say, or not to do or not to say....when we talk about specific words and
actions....it is almost like giving an unschooling recipe:
Like Step 1. Make as many different breakfasts as the people in your house
want.
Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook."
Step 3. Say.....<whatever>.
It seems legalistic. Just as unschooling looks different in every home but
follows the same basic guidelines of trust and acceptance, gentle parenting
looks different as well but follows the same basic guidelines of love and
respect being a 2 way street.
I agree that throwing a cliche out may not be the best approach to
parenting. It probably is worth examining. But just because it is a
cliche, perhaps even one that people have used as a put down doesn't
automatically make it taboo.
Most people would be offended if they were told "f**k you" by their spouse.
Dh and I have a relationship where being a smarta** is elevated to an
artform. So when I leave him speechless where all he can do is laugh and
say "f**k you", it is considered high praise, even if it is a cliche that
many consider a put down.
That is all I'm saying. Perhaps we will just disagree on this one.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "a taste of his own medicine" andother
cruel ideas
>
> In a message dated 5/14/04 1:18:05 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
>
> << I remember a post Sandra made a long time ago about a young boy
spending
>
> time at their house and trying too hard to be "something"....she posted "I
>
> told him 'Try not to be a prick'".
>
>
> That isn't exactly sweet. Certainly doesn't sound it when it is written
out
>
> flat. >>
>
> But I didn't say it in a kneejerk way because it was said to me. I
> considered my words and my intend and put words together appropriate to
that
> situation. I don't think I've ever said it since.
>
> My objection is to people thoughtlessly or unconsciously using phrases
from
> the archives of put-down parenting. I think it's a Very Bad thing to do.
>
> <<There is a whole lot more going on in a conversation besides the
specific
>
> words being spoken. >>
>
> But you seem to be defending a specific phrase which is NOT rearranged
from
> one conversation to another, and has been said for at least 50 years by
parents
> intending to put kids down. I object to none of the individual words in
"I'm
> not a short-order cook." I object to that specific word string being said
to
> any child who had an honest hope that her mother would make her some food
she
> liked, and no amount of "depends on the intent" will change my initial
> objection and point which is that there are several phrases designed and
repeated
> for negative purposes and it will help unschoolers to hear them if they
> accidently say them and to try to avoid them.
>
> Some people talk all in cliches. It's lame.
> We can strive to communicate directly and honestly and in our own words.
>
> Sandra
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
Hi Shyrley,
It is hard isn't it? My Adriane is 13. I try to remind myself of how most
of her decisions are much more thought out than mine are. Not that it helps
much <grin>.
Julie S.
It is hard isn't it? My Adriane is 13. I try to remind myself of how most
of her decisions are much more thought out than mine are. Not that it helps
much <grin>.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "SHYRLEY WILLIAMS" <shyrley.williams@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 4:00 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Letting kids go
>
>
>
> Heather is off to town tomorrow with a friend for her first lone shopping
trip. I'm a gibbering wreck! Friends mum will put them on the train and tell
them what time train to get back and she'll pick them up.
>
> Why am I so reluctant? At this age I went into town every Saturday and met
my friends. And I walked there for 45 minutes alone. From the age of 8 I
went to the shops alone or with friends and that was a half hour walk.
>
> It seems so hard not to wrap her in cotton wool. How have others dealt
with this? Heather is 12.
>
> Shyrley
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
kayb85
"it is almost like giving an unschooling recipe:
Like Step 1. Make as many different breakfasts as the people in your
house
want.
Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook."
Step 3. Say.....<whatever>.
It seems legalistic. Just as unschooling looks different in every
home but
follows the same basic guidelines of trust and acceptance, gentle
parenting
looks different as well but follows the same basic guidelines of love
and
respect being a 2 way street."
This is the hardest thing for me about unschooling. Knowing when or
if ever I can say no. Knowing where the line is between my personal
boundaries and making sure my kids are emotionally whole and feel
loved.
And still wondering if I'll ever grasp how to master finding time for
my own interests and work. Just a few weeks ago someone (Julie?)
said she has five kids and still does all this amazing (to me) amount
of work with them around. I'm in awe, because I don't.
An example...
Today one of Alisha's friends was having a yard sale, so we went and
visited their sale. Then we went to a few other yard sales and found
some neat stuff.
Luke had to go to the bathroom on the way home, so we stopped at a
grocery store (closest bathroom). When we walked past the salad bar,
he wanted some things off of it, so I let him fill up a container.
The boys hadn't wanted to go to yard sales, so I convinced them by
telling them we could stop and get milkshakes afterwards, so we
stopped for milkshakes.
At one of the sales Alisha and I found some new yugioh cards, so
Alisha asked me to play yugioh with her when we got home. She set
the cards up while I hung a load of laundry outside. I took a break
at one point to make english muffins, pour drinks, and go see
something that the boys had made outside.
After playing several games, Alisha and I looked up some stuff about
yugioh online. Then I started making supper, but dh had to finish
that because Matt shut the door on his toe and needed my attention.
I bandaided him up and it still hurt and he needed me to sit and hold
him for awhile.
After supper I looked something up online for Matt. He really liked
something that he bought at the yardsale and wanted to know if he
could buy something similar somewhere. Then Alisha asked me to play
yugioh some more. I asked if she could clear the table while I got
the laundry in off the line, and she did. We played 2 more games and
then spent awhile looking through all the cards not in our decks and
deciding what we could part with. She wants to have a yard sale now
too, and wants to sell her extra yugioh cards there. As we were
looking through the cards, something sparked a question she'd
wondered about from seeing it on her video game. She asked what
pyro, hydro, aero, and geo meant. I knew what they meant and told
her, but looked up geo in the dictionary to make sure I was right.
I made a 5 minute phone call to discuss with a friend plans for some
clubs Alisha wants to get involved in.
I took a shower and then lay, read, and sang with Alisha and then
Matt on their beds before they went to sleep. (Luke went to bed with
dh).
I came down, ran the dishwasher, did a load of dishes by hand. Now
I'm up too late finding time for myself online. I'll probably throw
in a load of laundry before bed so it's ready to get hung up in the
morning, and I'd like to read some of my book but will probably fall
asleep after 1 or 2 pages.
I'm NOT complaining about being home with and spending lots of time
with my kids. Really! I just wonder if there's something I'm
not "getting". I've been reading about moms getting lots of work
done even with 5 kids in the house and how moms should pursue
interests on their own. When I do really need to get work done or
pursue an interest for myself it usually involves telling a kid no.
I might have time in a few hours, or maybe tomorrow, but not now.
Then they're sad and I feel bad. Last week I went out for lunch with
a friend and Alisha, who's almost 11, begged me not to go. She would
miss me too much. Her dad was home with her, and they get along
great. Yet some of you go to work...don't your kids ask you not to
ever leave them? The only work I got done today was 2 loads of
laundry and food prep. I did the dishes after everyone else was
asleep. Is that bad? Should I be able to get more done when my kids
are around? They ask me to do stuff with them constantly. Not that
they don't ever do stuff on their own, but usually what happens is
that while one child is off doing something on his own, a different
child wants my attention. Usually I'm doing something with someone.
Is there something wrong that my kids want so much of me?
I'm very concerned about doing it all "right". I want my kids to be
emotionally whole and healthy and feeling very loved by their mom.
Back to the "I'm not a short order cook" theme... IS there ever a
time when you can say, "No, I'm tired, I can't get that right now?"
Example...All day long I got Luke everything he wanted to eat and
drink. No problem. For supper, I made hamburgers which I knew he
wouldn't want, so I made hot dogs too. Dh cut the hot dog up for
him, I got him ketchup on his plate, got him a fork. Poured him a
drink. He wanted to take his plate to the couch (a few feet from the
table to watch tv), so he did. Dh and I sat down to eat, kind of
tired, and as soon as I did, Luke said, "Bring me my drink, Mommy".
He had carried his plate in, sat down and got comfortable, and
realized he had forgotten his drink. I was tired. I said, "Honey,
I'm really tired. Why don't you come get your drink." He said no.
Dh said, "Well, it's right here whenever you want it." He asked in a
whiny voice several more times and I was about to get up and get it
for him but then he finally did come out and get it himself.
In situations like that it's hard for me to know if I should just
always breathe and put a smile on my face and get up and serve, no
matter how tired I am, or can I sometimes say, "I'm tired honey, why
don't you get it". And if he still says no, you get it, do I then do
it no matter what? I can't imagine getting lots of work or pursuing
interesting things on my own without sometimes saying, "No, I'm tired
or busy, you'll have to get it this time". or "No, we just played
for 3 hours and now I need an hour to myself". But does doing that
make them feel unloved? Shouldn't I always meet their needs first
and THEN meet my needs if there's ever any time left over?
Sheila
Like Step 1. Make as many different breakfasts as the people in your
house
want.
Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook."
Step 3. Say.....<whatever>.
It seems legalistic. Just as unschooling looks different in every
home but
follows the same basic guidelines of trust and acceptance, gentle
parenting
looks different as well but follows the same basic guidelines of love
and
respect being a 2 way street."
This is the hardest thing for me about unschooling. Knowing when or
if ever I can say no. Knowing where the line is between my personal
boundaries and making sure my kids are emotionally whole and feel
loved.
And still wondering if I'll ever grasp how to master finding time for
my own interests and work. Just a few weeks ago someone (Julie?)
said she has five kids and still does all this amazing (to me) amount
of work with them around. I'm in awe, because I don't.
An example...
Today one of Alisha's friends was having a yard sale, so we went and
visited their sale. Then we went to a few other yard sales and found
some neat stuff.
Luke had to go to the bathroom on the way home, so we stopped at a
grocery store (closest bathroom). When we walked past the salad bar,
he wanted some things off of it, so I let him fill up a container.
The boys hadn't wanted to go to yard sales, so I convinced them by
telling them we could stop and get milkshakes afterwards, so we
stopped for milkshakes.
At one of the sales Alisha and I found some new yugioh cards, so
Alisha asked me to play yugioh with her when we got home. She set
the cards up while I hung a load of laundry outside. I took a break
at one point to make english muffins, pour drinks, and go see
something that the boys had made outside.
After playing several games, Alisha and I looked up some stuff about
yugioh online. Then I started making supper, but dh had to finish
that because Matt shut the door on his toe and needed my attention.
I bandaided him up and it still hurt and he needed me to sit and hold
him for awhile.
After supper I looked something up online for Matt. He really liked
something that he bought at the yardsale and wanted to know if he
could buy something similar somewhere. Then Alisha asked me to play
yugioh some more. I asked if she could clear the table while I got
the laundry in off the line, and she did. We played 2 more games and
then spent awhile looking through all the cards not in our decks and
deciding what we could part with. She wants to have a yard sale now
too, and wants to sell her extra yugioh cards there. As we were
looking through the cards, something sparked a question she'd
wondered about from seeing it on her video game. She asked what
pyro, hydro, aero, and geo meant. I knew what they meant and told
her, but looked up geo in the dictionary to make sure I was right.
I made a 5 minute phone call to discuss with a friend plans for some
clubs Alisha wants to get involved in.
I took a shower and then lay, read, and sang with Alisha and then
Matt on their beds before they went to sleep. (Luke went to bed with
dh).
I came down, ran the dishwasher, did a load of dishes by hand. Now
I'm up too late finding time for myself online. I'll probably throw
in a load of laundry before bed so it's ready to get hung up in the
morning, and I'd like to read some of my book but will probably fall
asleep after 1 or 2 pages.
I'm NOT complaining about being home with and spending lots of time
with my kids. Really! I just wonder if there's something I'm
not "getting". I've been reading about moms getting lots of work
done even with 5 kids in the house and how moms should pursue
interests on their own. When I do really need to get work done or
pursue an interest for myself it usually involves telling a kid no.
I might have time in a few hours, or maybe tomorrow, but not now.
Then they're sad and I feel bad. Last week I went out for lunch with
a friend and Alisha, who's almost 11, begged me not to go. She would
miss me too much. Her dad was home with her, and they get along
great. Yet some of you go to work...don't your kids ask you not to
ever leave them? The only work I got done today was 2 loads of
laundry and food prep. I did the dishes after everyone else was
asleep. Is that bad? Should I be able to get more done when my kids
are around? They ask me to do stuff with them constantly. Not that
they don't ever do stuff on their own, but usually what happens is
that while one child is off doing something on his own, a different
child wants my attention. Usually I'm doing something with someone.
Is there something wrong that my kids want so much of me?
I'm very concerned about doing it all "right". I want my kids to be
emotionally whole and healthy and feeling very loved by their mom.
Back to the "I'm not a short order cook" theme... IS there ever a
time when you can say, "No, I'm tired, I can't get that right now?"
Example...All day long I got Luke everything he wanted to eat and
drink. No problem. For supper, I made hamburgers which I knew he
wouldn't want, so I made hot dogs too. Dh cut the hot dog up for
him, I got him ketchup on his plate, got him a fork. Poured him a
drink. He wanted to take his plate to the couch (a few feet from the
table to watch tv), so he did. Dh and I sat down to eat, kind of
tired, and as soon as I did, Luke said, "Bring me my drink, Mommy".
He had carried his plate in, sat down and got comfortable, and
realized he had forgotten his drink. I was tired. I said, "Honey,
I'm really tired. Why don't you come get your drink." He said no.
Dh said, "Well, it's right here whenever you want it." He asked in a
whiny voice several more times and I was about to get up and get it
for him but then he finally did come out and get it himself.
In situations like that it's hard for me to know if I should just
always breathe and put a smile on my face and get up and serve, no
matter how tired I am, or can I sometimes say, "I'm tired honey, why
don't you get it". And if he still says no, you get it, do I then do
it no matter what? I can't imagine getting lots of work or pursuing
interesting things on my own without sometimes saying, "No, I'm tired
or busy, you'll have to get it this time". or "No, we just played
for 3 hours and now I need an hour to myself". But does doing that
make them feel unloved? Shouldn't I always meet their needs first
and THEN meet my needs if there's ever any time left over?
Sheila
Robyn Coburn
<<An example...
Today one of Alisha's friends was having a yard sale, so we went and
visited their sale. Then we went to a few other yard sales and found
some neat stuff. [snip]...
I made a 5 minute phone call to discuss with a friend plans for some
clubs Alisha wants to get involved in.>>>
Personally I think you did a huge amount of cool stuff AND accomplished a
load of laundry AND a conversation with someone else. Seriously - look back
at it all written out and see what a great full day it was!
<<When I do really need to get work done or
pursue an interest for myself it usually involves telling a kid no.
I might have time in a few hours, or maybe tomorrow, but not now.>>
To be honest, this is one of the hardest things for me (and I only have one
unless you count in giving dh the attention he needs to feel loved also).
The greatest boon for me has been a lap top computer so that I can check
email, do internet research and squeeze in moments on my scripts while still
being where she is. Also she can play computer games on it next to me while
I sprawl groggily on the bed - this is especially good because of her 28
hour long day. Lastly it is useful to keep always booted up and ready to go,
so that when I notice that Jayn has found something to do for 20 minutes
that doesn't need me, I can grab it.
<<Back to the "I'm not a short order cook" theme... IS there ever a
time when you can say, "No, I'm tired, I can't get that right now?">>
I think the time that is said around here is when it is true. I am getting
better at gauging how tired I am, and lately have been saying to Jayn
something like "I've got about 15 minutes left in me and then I'm going to
bed" instead of just getting increasingly grumpy and resentful until I snap
at her. By the same token if I say "can you get it yourself" then that is a
question for which the answer might genuinely be "no". I find Jayn's whining
and misery more exhausting than the effort of heading off the whining by
accepting "no, you get it" or "I need you to come with me" (when I have to
get out of bed to turn on the bathroom light even though she can turn it on
herself and often does) and just staggering up and doing it as quickly as I
can. I'm getting better at staying neutral if not cheerful about being
forced out of bed. What happens at the dinner table a lot, is that Jayn asks
me for her drink, and dh will get it for her - usually this is OK, sometimes
it just has to be me.
<<But does doing that
make them feel unloved? Shouldn't I always meet their needs first
and THEN meet my needs if there's ever any time left over?>>
I'm looking forward to hearing from people with more experience on this one
too! Is it a matter of understanding the differences between "needs" and
"wants"? I don't know. So much of unschooling is acceptance and trust, even
when it seems counterintuitive or at least counter to what is accepted
conventional wisdom (like the idea that you have to make a child be
independent or they will always be clingy; we do the opposite allow a child
to cling as long as they need to and they will become truly independent and
confident). I have to trust that Jayn will become a pleasant, generous and
thoughtful person by being kinder to her than many parents who would simply
insist that their child get their own drink, or even be a little servant for
their parents. My dh remembers constantly being ordered to fetch stuff
(including cocktails) for his parents, regardless of his current activity. I
don't think it would have occurred to me to ask my mother to fetch me my
drink - since I would have been at the table with no choice in the matter,
unless I was actually sick. Actually Jayn is already eager to be helpful and
kind - like running to get the phone for me, and helping to clean, or
offering to get things for me.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 4/9/2004
Today one of Alisha's friends was having a yard sale, so we went and
visited their sale. Then we went to a few other yard sales and found
some neat stuff. [snip]...
I made a 5 minute phone call to discuss with a friend plans for some
clubs Alisha wants to get involved in.>>>
Personally I think you did a huge amount of cool stuff AND accomplished a
load of laundry AND a conversation with someone else. Seriously - look back
at it all written out and see what a great full day it was!
<<When I do really need to get work done or
pursue an interest for myself it usually involves telling a kid no.
I might have time in a few hours, or maybe tomorrow, but not now.>>
To be honest, this is one of the hardest things for me (and I only have one
unless you count in giving dh the attention he needs to feel loved also).
The greatest boon for me has been a lap top computer so that I can check
email, do internet research and squeeze in moments on my scripts while still
being where she is. Also she can play computer games on it next to me while
I sprawl groggily on the bed - this is especially good because of her 28
hour long day. Lastly it is useful to keep always booted up and ready to go,
so that when I notice that Jayn has found something to do for 20 minutes
that doesn't need me, I can grab it.
<<Back to the "I'm not a short order cook" theme... IS there ever a
time when you can say, "No, I'm tired, I can't get that right now?">>
I think the time that is said around here is when it is true. I am getting
better at gauging how tired I am, and lately have been saying to Jayn
something like "I've got about 15 minutes left in me and then I'm going to
bed" instead of just getting increasingly grumpy and resentful until I snap
at her. By the same token if I say "can you get it yourself" then that is a
question for which the answer might genuinely be "no". I find Jayn's whining
and misery more exhausting than the effort of heading off the whining by
accepting "no, you get it" or "I need you to come with me" (when I have to
get out of bed to turn on the bathroom light even though she can turn it on
herself and often does) and just staggering up and doing it as quickly as I
can. I'm getting better at staying neutral if not cheerful about being
forced out of bed. What happens at the dinner table a lot, is that Jayn asks
me for her drink, and dh will get it for her - usually this is OK, sometimes
it just has to be me.
<<But does doing that
make them feel unloved? Shouldn't I always meet their needs first
and THEN meet my needs if there's ever any time left over?>>
I'm looking forward to hearing from people with more experience on this one
too! Is it a matter of understanding the differences between "needs" and
"wants"? I don't know. So much of unschooling is acceptance and trust, even
when it seems counterintuitive or at least counter to what is accepted
conventional wisdom (like the idea that you have to make a child be
independent or they will always be clingy; we do the opposite allow a child
to cling as long as they need to and they will become truly independent and
confident). I have to trust that Jayn will become a pleasant, generous and
thoughtful person by being kinder to her than many parents who would simply
insist that their child get their own drink, or even be a little servant for
their parents. My dh remembers constantly being ordered to fetch stuff
(including cocktails) for his parents, regardless of his current activity. I
don't think it would have occurred to me to ask my mother to fetch me my
drink - since I would have been at the table with no choice in the matter,
unless I was actually sick. Actually Jayn is already eager to be helpful and
kind - like running to get the phone for me, and helping to clean, or
offering to get things for me.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 4/9/2004
[email protected]
<< <<Back to the "I'm not a short order cook" theme... IS there ever a
time when you can say, "No, I'm tired, I can't get that right now?">> >>
Sure. Why not?
Anytime a person's really too tired and she tells the truth in her own words,
I have no problem.
My problem is with people using a phrase off the bad-parent-pull-down-menu
(think Terminator) and saying "I'm not your slave" every time a kid asks them to
do something, regardless of whether the parent has really thought a bit first
to consider whether it's a good idea to help, or whether she's too tired.
Other options under the "I'm not your slave" item are "you're old enough to
do it yourself" (said sharply like being old enough was some evil thing the
child did) and "I'm not your handmaid," "I'm not your servant," or "Who do you
think you are?" (which leads to its own other menu.
My objection was to stock phrases.
I'm honestly a little stunned that ANYONE here isn't getting that, but that
several aren't understanding it baffles me.
Sandra
time when you can say, "No, I'm tired, I can't get that right now?">> >>
Sure. Why not?
Anytime a person's really too tired and she tells the truth in her own words,
I have no problem.
My problem is with people using a phrase off the bad-parent-pull-down-menu
(think Terminator) and saying "I'm not your slave" every time a kid asks them to
do something, regardless of whether the parent has really thought a bit first
to consider whether it's a good idea to help, or whether she's too tired.
Other options under the "I'm not your slave" item are "you're old enough to
do it yourself" (said sharply like being old enough was some evil thing the
child did) and "I'm not your handmaid," "I'm not your servant," or "Who do you
think you are?" (which leads to its own other menu.
My objection was to stock phrases.
I'm honestly a little stunned that ANYONE here isn't getting that, but that
several aren't understanding it baffles me.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/15/04 4:31:47 AM, dezigna@... writes:
<< My dh remembers constantly being ordered to fetch stuff
(including cocktails) for his parents, regardless of his current activity. >>
I got coffee and cigarettes for my parents for years and years. Sometimes I
was told to make the coffee too. I wouldn't have been allowed to drink it
even if I wanted to, because it was expensive. My mom drank it black. My dad
took cream and sugar. I fixed it the way he liked it, but he invariably smiled
and said thank you really nicely. My mom sometimes greeted her ordered
coffee delivery with "Did you remember to take the trash out?" or some equally
ungrateful thing.
Keith and I were working in the front yard last night, and Keith asked Marty
if he would felt like maybe getting a little dirty (the other two kids were
gone, but Marty would've been the choice for this job anyway). Marty said when
his game could pause, sure. He came willing to help without knowing what the
task was. Keith wanted two (big) wheelbarrow loads of dirt.
Marty brought one (from the back yard, up a single-board ramp, around the
house, quite a way) and Keith and I were distributing it where it needed to go.
Marty was late with the second one, and kept not coming back, and while Keith
and I were doing other things we were joking and talking about whether Keith
should go "supervise" him, or whether we should just let him do it in his own
time, and Keith said no, let him do it however he wanted to.
His dirt-choice was from the big hole he and a friend started digging several
years ago, and he was way down IN the hole, making it deeper. And that's
slow. But when the barrow was 2/3 full, Marty got a splinter, and he came up and
showed us, and said he was going to go try to get it out.
It's Keith's fault, that splinter, because he leave his tools outside and
we're in the desert, and that shovel handle was too dry, needed oil or paint.
So Keith and finished that load, and we would've asked Marty to do one more,
but he came out and showed us he couldn't get the splinter, though he had dug.
Keith and I both used to be excellent splinter surgeons, but we're both past
the point of seeing well without sunshine and a magnifying glass.
Keith asked Marty what he wanted to do, and Marty said he didn't want to help
anymore because it hurt. Even putting anti-biotic creme on it had hurt.
Keith said "That's fine," and he really, truly meant it.
That was cool, because I know Keith's dad just used to demand Keith do this
or that, dig post holes, change the oil, pull all the weeds, haul rocks,
without ANY consideration to what Keith might rather be doing.
Sandra
<< My dh remembers constantly being ordered to fetch stuff
(including cocktails) for his parents, regardless of his current activity. >>
I got coffee and cigarettes for my parents for years and years. Sometimes I
was told to make the coffee too. I wouldn't have been allowed to drink it
even if I wanted to, because it was expensive. My mom drank it black. My dad
took cream and sugar. I fixed it the way he liked it, but he invariably smiled
and said thank you really nicely. My mom sometimes greeted her ordered
coffee delivery with "Did you remember to take the trash out?" or some equally
ungrateful thing.
Keith and I were working in the front yard last night, and Keith asked Marty
if he would felt like maybe getting a little dirty (the other two kids were
gone, but Marty would've been the choice for this job anyway). Marty said when
his game could pause, sure. He came willing to help without knowing what the
task was. Keith wanted two (big) wheelbarrow loads of dirt.
Marty brought one (from the back yard, up a single-board ramp, around the
house, quite a way) and Keith and I were distributing it where it needed to go.
Marty was late with the second one, and kept not coming back, and while Keith
and I were doing other things we were joking and talking about whether Keith
should go "supervise" him, or whether we should just let him do it in his own
time, and Keith said no, let him do it however he wanted to.
His dirt-choice was from the big hole he and a friend started digging several
years ago, and he was way down IN the hole, making it deeper. And that's
slow. But when the barrow was 2/3 full, Marty got a splinter, and he came up and
showed us, and said he was going to go try to get it out.
It's Keith's fault, that splinter, because he leave his tools outside and
we're in the desert, and that shovel handle was too dry, needed oil or paint.
So Keith and finished that load, and we would've asked Marty to do one more,
but he came out and showed us he couldn't get the splinter, though he had dug.
Keith and I both used to be excellent splinter surgeons, but we're both past
the point of seeing well without sunshine and a magnifying glass.
Keith asked Marty what he wanted to do, and Marty said he didn't want to help
anymore because it hurt. Even putting anti-biotic creme on it had hurt.
Keith said "That's fine," and he really, truly meant it.
That was cool, because I know Keith's dad just used to demand Keith do this
or that, dig post holes, change the oil, pull all the weeds, haul rocks,
without ANY consideration to what Keith might rather be doing.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/14/04 10:04:35 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< I think when we tell people specific things to do and specific things to
say, or not to do or not to say....when we talk about specific words and
actions....it is almost like giving an unschooling recipe:
Like Step 1. Make as many different breakfasts as the people in your house
want.
Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook." >>
I don't agree with step 1. I think it comes under
"Be thoughtful and aware of your children as individuals."
"Decide what your priorities are. Children over house? Learning over
schedule?"
"Be mindful, not kneejerk. Don't try to use old methods for new purposes."
I just made those up now. <g> But they're the kinds of PRINCIPLES (not
rules) that are discussed all the time in unschooling discussions.
-=-Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook."
Step 3. Say.....<whatever>.
It seems legalistic. -=-
Really? I'm repeating myself like a little telephone tape and somehow what
I'm saying isn't coming through. Can someone else help me say it? Pam and
Joyce tried, I think.
There are some phrases which don't exist in ANY conversations except those
which put down children, which treat them as second-class humans to be scoffed
at and abused. One of those phrases is "I'm not a short-order cook." There
are several other phrases like that. If a parent is using those phrases, it is
indicative that the parent is working from super-ego voices, not from her own
voice. She is having throw-back to other people and situations and attitudes,
not dealing directly with her own child in that moment.
A person who is quoting parents or grandparents for purposes of thwarting a
child is not living in the unschooling moment.
-=-I agree that throwing a cliche out may not be the best approach to
parenting. It probably is worth examining. But just because it is a
cliche, perhaps even one that people have used as a put down doesn't
automatically make it taboo.-=-
Okay. There it is.
Why should a parent not try to rid their mind and soul of put-down cliches?
Why should a parent not be willing to encourage other unschoolers to cleanse
themselves of anti-child rhetoric?
-=- Perhaps we will just disagree on this one.-=-
Some of the hundreds of people who will read this before the weekend is out,
though, might decide what they believe on the basis of persuasive argument, so
it's still worth discussing.
Sandra
<< I think when we tell people specific things to do and specific things to
say, or not to do or not to say....when we talk about specific words and
actions....it is almost like giving an unschooling recipe:
Like Step 1. Make as many different breakfasts as the people in your house
want.
Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook." >>
I don't agree with step 1. I think it comes under
"Be thoughtful and aware of your children as individuals."
"Decide what your priorities are. Children over house? Learning over
schedule?"
"Be mindful, not kneejerk. Don't try to use old methods for new purposes."
I just made those up now. <g> But they're the kinds of PRINCIPLES (not
rules) that are discussed all the time in unschooling discussions.
-=-Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook."
Step 3. Say.....<whatever>.
It seems legalistic. -=-
Really? I'm repeating myself like a little telephone tape and somehow what
I'm saying isn't coming through. Can someone else help me say it? Pam and
Joyce tried, I think.
There are some phrases which don't exist in ANY conversations except those
which put down children, which treat them as second-class humans to be scoffed
at and abused. One of those phrases is "I'm not a short-order cook." There
are several other phrases like that. If a parent is using those phrases, it is
indicative that the parent is working from super-ego voices, not from her own
voice. She is having throw-back to other people and situations and attitudes,
not dealing directly with her own child in that moment.
A person who is quoting parents or grandparents for purposes of thwarting a
child is not living in the unschooling moment.
-=-I agree that throwing a cliche out may not be the best approach to
parenting. It probably is worth examining. But just because it is a
cliche, perhaps even one that people have used as a put down doesn't
automatically make it taboo.-=-
Okay. There it is.
Why should a parent not try to rid their mind and soul of put-down cliches?
Why should a parent not be willing to encourage other unschoolers to cleanse
themselves of anti-child rhetoric?
-=- Perhaps we will just disagree on this one.-=-
Some of the hundreds of people who will read this before the weekend is out,
though, might decide what they believe on the basis of persuasive argument, so
it's still worth discussing.
Sandra
Kelly Lenhart
>I'm very concerned about doing it all "right". I want my kids to beHades, if I'd managed to get a load of laundry done on a busy day like that
>emotionally whole and healthy and feeling very loved by their mom.
I'd be jumping up and down for JOY!!!
I think that sounded like a marvelous day--you were right there for your
kids, willing to play with them, talk to them, work with them.
> Dh and I sat down to eat, kind ofThat would have annoyed me. I think I'd have taken it to him and said, "Ya
>tired, and as soon as I did, Luke said, "Bring me my drink, Mommy".
know, it would have been a little nicer if you could have said, oh, I don't
know, please???" I can see myself doing that, with good humor. Wait, I DID
do that yesterday.
My son's reaction? A sheepish smile and a heartfelt thanks. Fair enough,
we all forget the niceties sometimes.
> I can't imagine getting lots of work or pursuingUhm, only if you want to go insane? I know that I need to work WAY more on
>interesting things on my own without sometimes saying, "No, I'm tired
>or busy, you'll have to get it this time". or "No, we just played
>for 3 hours and now I need an hour to myself". But does doing that
>make them feel unloved? Shouldn't I always meet their needs first
>and THEN meet my needs if there's ever any time left over?
getting in those three hours of play. My littlest is still just a crawler
and I'm a bit overwhelmed. But it's supposed to be a balance where you ALL
get what you need.
I don't see the mom being subsummed by the family being anymore healthy than
the kids being controlled by the parents needs or expectations. If you
don't expect them to be respectful of you, too, then what's the point of
being respectful of them?
I think the idea is that we need to get past the idea of working for it,
waiting for it, getting it themselves, etc will make them a "better person."
Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/14/04 11:54:22 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< This is the hardest thing for me about unschooling. Knowing when or
if ever I can say no. >>
You can say no all you want to.
When unschooling really gets into your heart and soul, you SHOULD be wanting
to say no less and less. But that should be natural, not off a chart.
Don't look at us when you decide, look compassionately at your child. Look
inside at her feelings, her mood of the moment. Is it an okay time for a no?
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
<<And still wondering if I'll ever grasp how to master finding time for
my own interests and work. Just a few weeks ago someone (Julie?)
said she has five kids and still does all this amazing (to me) amount
of work with them around. I'm in awe, because I don't. >>
Kids get older and they leave. Life isn't homogenized.
-=-Is there something wrong that my kids want so much of me? -=-
I doubt it! Sounds like they just really LIKE you.
-=-Last week I went out for lunch with
a friend and Alisha, who's almost 11, begged me not to go. She would
miss me too much. Her dad was home with her, and they get along
great. -=-
In cases like that, when I knew Holly was antsy about me leaving, I would
help Keith arrange something really interesting for her so that staying home was
so fascinating she practically forgot I was leaving. Most of her life she's
been okay with me leaving, but there were a few seasons where she just didn't
like the sight or feeling of seeing me leave. I would really brightly and
smilingly say "I'll be back at 3:30 or sooner!"
Ah! Another trick I've used is instead of giving the closest estimate and
"being late," I'll tack on a half an hour or an hour (depending how far away
I'll be) and then I show up early, and the kids feel special because I hurried
home, instead of cranky because I didn't get there when I said I would.
-=- Dh and I sat down to eat, kind of
tired, and as soon as I did, Luke said, "Bring me my drink, Mommy".
He had carried his plate in, sat down and got comfortable, and
realized he had forgotten his drink. I was tired. I said, "Honey,
I'm really tired. Why don't you come get your drink." He said no.
Dh said, "Well, it's right here whenever you want it." He asked in a
whiny voice several more times and I was about to get up and get it
for him but then he finally did come out and get it himself. -=-
I would've gotten him the drink. The reason I would have is that if he's not
old enough to cut up his own hot dog (or he needs it cut up) he's probably
not old enough to carry the hot dog AND a drink, so someone should've helped him
get situated where he was going to eat.
A hot dog needs a drink. He's only been on the planet a short time, but both
the adults knew a hot dog needed a drink. "Kind of tired" didn't change
that.
So he ate, and he had his drink, but he also had the disappointment and
negativity that came from parents refusing to do him a little favor.
I think he will refuse to do you a favor soon, or often. You bought yourself
some backlash, I think. And I don't think he'll even be aware of why he's
hesitant to help you.
-=-"Bring me my drink, Mommy". -=-
Would it have helped you if he had said please? Would you have been more
willing?
Didn't you and your husband feel a little less happy with your hamburgers,
having frustrated a kid who only wanted a drink?
-=-In situations like that it's hard for me to know if I should just
always breathe and put a smile on my face and get up and serve, no
matter how tired I am, or can I sometimes say, "I'm tired honey, why
don't you get it". And if he still says no, you get it, do I then do
it no matter what? -=-
"Why don't you get it" might not be the best wording.
"Could you get it?" That's an honest question. "Why don't you" isn't.
-=-I can't imagine getting lots of work or pursuing
interesting things on my own without sometimes saying, "No, I'm tired
or busy, you'll have to get it this time". -=-
If you're really tired, you can't do work or pursue interesting things.
You might be tired of Barbie or pushing a kid on a swing, and that's fine.
Kids get tired of doing the same thing too. That's different from just plain
tired.
-=-or "No, we just played
for 3 hours and now I need an hour to myself". But does doing that
make them feel unloved? -=-
Not after three hours.
But maybe consider suggesting something really interesting they could do that
doesn't involve you so that they're not going from something neat to
something less neat, but from something they really liked (playing with you) to
something they like even more (whatever it might be; rent a new video, I don't know).
Sandra
<< This is the hardest thing for me about unschooling. Knowing when or
if ever I can say no. >>
You can say no all you want to.
When unschooling really gets into your heart and soul, you SHOULD be wanting
to say no less and less. But that should be natural, not off a chart.
Don't look at us when you decide, look compassionately at your child. Look
inside at her feelings, her mood of the moment. Is it an okay time for a no?
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
<<And still wondering if I'll ever grasp how to master finding time for
my own interests and work. Just a few weeks ago someone (Julie?)
said she has five kids and still does all this amazing (to me) amount
of work with them around. I'm in awe, because I don't. >>
Kids get older and they leave. Life isn't homogenized.
-=-Is there something wrong that my kids want so much of me? -=-
I doubt it! Sounds like they just really LIKE you.
-=-Last week I went out for lunch with
a friend and Alisha, who's almost 11, begged me not to go. She would
miss me too much. Her dad was home with her, and they get along
great. -=-
In cases like that, when I knew Holly was antsy about me leaving, I would
help Keith arrange something really interesting for her so that staying home was
so fascinating she practically forgot I was leaving. Most of her life she's
been okay with me leaving, but there were a few seasons where she just didn't
like the sight or feeling of seeing me leave. I would really brightly and
smilingly say "I'll be back at 3:30 or sooner!"
Ah! Another trick I've used is instead of giving the closest estimate and
"being late," I'll tack on a half an hour or an hour (depending how far away
I'll be) and then I show up early, and the kids feel special because I hurried
home, instead of cranky because I didn't get there when I said I would.
-=- Dh and I sat down to eat, kind of
tired, and as soon as I did, Luke said, "Bring me my drink, Mommy".
He had carried his plate in, sat down and got comfortable, and
realized he had forgotten his drink. I was tired. I said, "Honey,
I'm really tired. Why don't you come get your drink." He said no.
Dh said, "Well, it's right here whenever you want it." He asked in a
whiny voice several more times and I was about to get up and get it
for him but then he finally did come out and get it himself. -=-
I would've gotten him the drink. The reason I would have is that if he's not
old enough to cut up his own hot dog (or he needs it cut up) he's probably
not old enough to carry the hot dog AND a drink, so someone should've helped him
get situated where he was going to eat.
A hot dog needs a drink. He's only been on the planet a short time, but both
the adults knew a hot dog needed a drink. "Kind of tired" didn't change
that.
So he ate, and he had his drink, but he also had the disappointment and
negativity that came from parents refusing to do him a little favor.
I think he will refuse to do you a favor soon, or often. You bought yourself
some backlash, I think. And I don't think he'll even be aware of why he's
hesitant to help you.
-=-"Bring me my drink, Mommy". -=-
Would it have helped you if he had said please? Would you have been more
willing?
Didn't you and your husband feel a little less happy with your hamburgers,
having frustrated a kid who only wanted a drink?
-=-In situations like that it's hard for me to know if I should just
always breathe and put a smile on my face and get up and serve, no
matter how tired I am, or can I sometimes say, "I'm tired honey, why
don't you get it". And if he still says no, you get it, do I then do
it no matter what? -=-
"Why don't you get it" might not be the best wording.
"Could you get it?" That's an honest question. "Why don't you" isn't.
-=-I can't imagine getting lots of work or pursuing
interesting things on my own without sometimes saying, "No, I'm tired
or busy, you'll have to get it this time". -=-
If you're really tired, you can't do work or pursue interesting things.
You might be tired of Barbie or pushing a kid on a swing, and that's fine.
Kids get tired of doing the same thing too. That's different from just plain
tired.
-=-or "No, we just played
for 3 hours and now I need an hour to myself". But does doing that
make them feel unloved? -=-
Not after three hours.
But maybe consider suggesting something really interesting they could do that
doesn't involve you so that they're not going from something neat to
something less neat, but from something they really liked (playing with you) to
something they like even more (whatever it might be; rent a new video, I don't know).
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/15/04 9:19:44 AM, mina@... writes:
<< I don't see the mom being subsummed by the family being anymore healthy
than
the kids being controlled by the parents needs or expectations. If you
don't expect them to be respectful of you, too, then what's the point of
being respectful of them? >>
A mother with small children is the mother of small children. She can either
be a good mother of small children or a bad one, but those children are there
and can't wait a few years.
-=- If you
don't expect them to be respectful of you, too, . . .-=-
Little children do NOT have the same awareness or sensibilities adults have.
-=-If you
don't expect them to be respectful of you, too, then what's the point of
being respectful of them? -=-
There is more than one point.
If you are respectful of them, it makes you a better person.
If you are respectful of them, they build up a charge of being respected;
they know what it feels like, and they can pass it on.
You can't give what you don't have, and if children are not respected, they
can't be respectful in return. But any mother who is expecting to get back
exactly what she give out to her children, and on some kind of equitable
schedule, and soon, is being unrealistic.
If you bring your children drinks for years, when you break your leg and
can't get to the kitchen for two months, they will be more likely to be sweet and
generous about bringing you drinks. I know this from personal experience.
If I took three kid drinks and said "That's it; I've done it three times and
you didn't bring me anything," you've botched the whole deal.
This is not time by the day, but time by the life. a beloved, special child,
he will BE a beloved special child.
If you treat him like an irritation who should get his own drink, he will
(even for a moment) BE an irritation who failed to get his own drink, who
misjudged whether to ask his mom for help, who failed.
http://sandradodd.com.respect
"How to Raise a Respected Child."
I haven't changed my mind about any of that. I see parents want to have the
same result without the willingness to offer the same foundation. Sorry to
quote myself, but: "Neediness expresses itself differently with different kids.
Abundance expresses itself similarly in all. "
Sandra
<< I don't see the mom being subsummed by the family being anymore healthy
than
the kids being controlled by the parents needs or expectations. If you
don't expect them to be respectful of you, too, then what's the point of
being respectful of them? >>
A mother with small children is the mother of small children. She can either
be a good mother of small children or a bad one, but those children are there
and can't wait a few years.
-=- If you
don't expect them to be respectful of you, too, . . .-=-
Little children do NOT have the same awareness or sensibilities adults have.
-=-If you
don't expect them to be respectful of you, too, then what's the point of
being respectful of them? -=-
There is more than one point.
If you are respectful of them, it makes you a better person.
If you are respectful of them, they build up a charge of being respected;
they know what it feels like, and they can pass it on.
You can't give what you don't have, and if children are not respected, they
can't be respectful in return. But any mother who is expecting to get back
exactly what she give out to her children, and on some kind of equitable
schedule, and soon, is being unrealistic.
If you bring your children drinks for years, when you break your leg and
can't get to the kitchen for two months, they will be more likely to be sweet and
generous about bringing you drinks. I know this from personal experience.
If I took three kid drinks and said "That's it; I've done it three times and
you didn't bring me anything," you've botched the whole deal.
This is not time by the day, but time by the life. a beloved, special child,
he will BE a beloved special child.
If you treat him like an irritation who should get his own drink, he will
(even for a moment) BE an irritation who failed to get his own drink, who
misjudged whether to ask his mom for help, who failed.
http://sandradodd.com.respect
"How to Raise a Respected Child."
I haven't changed my mind about any of that. I see parents want to have the
same result without the willingness to offer the same foundation. Sorry to
quote myself, but: "Neediness expresses itself differently with different kids.
Abundance expresses itself similarly in all. "
Sandra
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], "kayb85" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
"No, I'm tired
word?
"I would love to, but I'm really tired and I'm eating. You can
either get it yourself, or I'll bring it when I've finished."
"I will in an hour -- right now I'm _______. Would you like to
watch?" (Or, "I need to be alone while I do it, but let's set the
timer so you know when we'll play.")
That's how I begin, and then I do watch how the interaction goes.
If it seems more important to the child that I do what they want
than it seems to me to do what I want, I do it. If I really am just
too tired and getting grumpy, I let my son know that in a nice
way: "I'm getting too grumpy to be with people right now, but in 20
minutes I'll be up for it. I want to be able to play with you when
I can enjoy it and be nice."
It models taking care of yourself in a way that nice and thoughtful
to others. It shows that other people have needs, and that a lot of
interactions are about weighing those and seeing if everyone can get
something they need.
For me, it's part of loving my children, because I do get snappy
when I'm overwhelmed or tired, and I really don't want to do that.
I've said it before, but I make sure to take good care of my
children's mother.
Peace,
Amy
wrote:
"No, I'm tired
> or busy, you'll have to get it this time". or "No, we just playedthat
> for 3 hours and now I need an hour to myself". But does doing
> make them feel unloved?What if you still stick up for yourself but don't start with the "n"
word?
"I would love to, but I'm really tired and I'm eating. You can
either get it yourself, or I'll bring it when I've finished."
"I will in an hour -- right now I'm _______. Would you like to
watch?" (Or, "I need to be alone while I do it, but let's set the
timer so you know when we'll play.")
That's how I begin, and then I do watch how the interaction goes.
If it seems more important to the child that I do what they want
than it seems to me to do what I want, I do it. If I really am just
too tired and getting grumpy, I let my son know that in a nice
way: "I'm getting too grumpy to be with people right now, but in 20
minutes I'll be up for it. I want to be able to play with you when
I can enjoy it and be nice."
It models taking care of yourself in a way that nice and thoughtful
to others. It shows that other people have needs, and that a lot of
interactions are about weighing those and seeing if everyone can get
something they need.
For me, it's part of loving my children, because I do get snappy
when I'm overwhelmed or tired, and I really don't want to do that.
I've said it before, but I make sure to take good care of my
children's mother.
Peace,
Amy
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/15/04 9:19:44 AM, mina@... writes:
<< I think the idea is that we need to get past the idea of working for it,
waiting for it, getting it themselves, etc will make them a "better person."
door and then marty's friend came and...
I'm sorry.
I meant to say I TOTALLY AGREE.
Sandra
<< I think the idea is that we need to get past the idea of working for it,
waiting for it, getting it themselves, etc will make them a "better person."
>>DOH! I didn't get to this before I wrote and sent. I had a neighbor at the
door and then marty's friend came and...
I'm sorry.
I meant to say I TOTALLY AGREE.
Sandra
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], "arcarpenter2003"
<arcarpenter@c...> wrote:
I help my son plan what he's going to do for the time I'm going to
be alone, trying to make it a treat. (That's a loving thing to do,
as well.)
I might not take an hour all at once, but in 15- or 20-minute parts
during the day. An hour is like forever to children, as my son has
pointed out to me.
Peace,
Amy
<arcarpenter@c...> wrote:
> "I will in an hour -- right now I'm _______. Would you like toI should add to this:
> watch?" (Or, "I need to be alone while I do it, but let's set the
> timer so you know when we'll play.")
I help my son plan what he's going to do for the time I'm going to
be alone, trying to make it a treat. (That's a loving thing to do,
as well.)
I might not take an hour all at once, but in 15- or 20-minute parts
during the day. An hour is like forever to children, as my son has
pointed out to me.
Peace,
Amy
Elizabeth Hill
** If you are respectful of them, it makes you a better person.
If you are respectful of them, they build up a charge of being respected;
they know what it feels like, and they can pass it on.**
I put in extra effort towards being attentive to my child this last week
instead of just collapsing in a heap. Since he requested more time at
home, I came back from the park an hour earlier (despite the nasty
traffic), I made mac'n'cheese in addition to the adult meal, delivered
drinks to the living room and said "yeah, sure" to a strange dessert.
In return I got a very happy child who sang me a song about being the
best mom ever. (Absolutely true) (That is, that he sang the song.
It's really debatable whether I'm the best mom ever. <g>.)
These are all normally things that I do, at least some of the time, but
with encouragement from the list and with the extra pep from getting
home earlier I made a not-so-little boy really happy by going that extra
mile.
Betsy
If you are respectful of them, they build up a charge of being respected;
they know what it feels like, and they can pass it on.**
I put in extra effort towards being attentive to my child this last week
instead of just collapsing in a heap. Since he requested more time at
home, I came back from the park an hour earlier (despite the nasty
traffic), I made mac'n'cheese in addition to the adult meal, delivered
drinks to the living room and said "yeah, sure" to a strange dessert.
In return I got a very happy child who sang me a song about being the
best mom ever. (Absolutely true) (That is, that he sang the song.
It's really debatable whether I'm the best mom ever. <g>.)
These are all normally things that I do, at least some of the time, but
with encouragement from the list and with the extra pep from getting
home earlier I made a not-so-little boy really happy by going that extra
mile.
Betsy
Betsy and Chris
>>So he ate, and he had his drink, but he also had the disappointment andnegativity that came from parents refusing to do him a little favor.
I think he will refuse to do you a favor soon, or often. You bought yourself
some backlash, I think. And I don't think he'll even be aware of why he's
hesitant to help you.>>
I can't tell you how much reading this helped me! Thank you for articulating this.
My kid is 2.5 and sometimes I find myself participating in these types of "stand-offs." I've found that it is entirely impossible to have a power struggle by yourself--but, I have to remind myself that as hard as it is for me to step back, I've had 30 some years of practice. How can I expect someone with a couple months of experience to negotiate and "unlock"?
Thanks,
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
The situation described wasn't a kid being lazy, it was a kid who
hadn't planned ahead perfectly, had gotten comfy and then realized he'd
forgotten his drink. That's not a "bad habit" - that's just being a
human. ANY of us could do the same thing. I've I'd settled into a comfy
position with my food and then realized I'd forgotten to bring my
drink, I'd look up to see if anybody was in a good position to hand it
to me.
We have a situation at our house that is new - in the late evenings
there are usually several of us sitting together in the living room,
with our laptops, playing a game, or watching something on tv.
Recently, our dog has been wanting to go in and out the back door way
more often than she ever has before - I don't know what the problem is,
she goes out and wanders around and then wants back in and then out and
then in.... Anyway - we don't have a doggy door because we've never
needed one, but now we're having to get up and down all the time. We
are all getting a little tired of it and I hope she'll just stop doing
it, soon. But I noticed something nice. We seem to just kind of
naturally share the chore of getting up - kind of taking turns in an
unspoken rotation. If the kids are busy and I'm just reading email, I
usually do it - so I probably do it more than they do. But it is WAY
harder for me to get up and down off the floor if we're sitting down
there playing a game and they don't even expect me to do it at all, in
that case. Nice of them. Thoughtful without even probably giving it
more than a moment's thought. These are 13, 16, and 19 year old kids.
A little while ago, my husband settled down in his chair to watch a
soccer game on tv that he is very excited by (his favorite English
team, Arsenal, will break a 100+ year record if they win this game). As
soon as he settled in and got the game on and it started, he said, "Oh
darn, I forgot to make my tea." (He'd boiled the water but forgot to
make it and bring it with him to sit down.) Roxana, 16, was sitting on
the couch nearby, with her laptop. She jumped up and said, "I'll get
it." She did that. Now 20 minutes later, he just wanted another cup of
tea. He looked around and saw Roxana and I both typing away on our
laptops and he didn't even ask, he just jumped up and went and got it
himself.
It is hard work and tiring to have young children. You DO have to watch
out for them and help them a lot. A parent could have kept an eye on
him getting his food and reminded him that he'd forgotten his drink or
noticed when he settled down without it and gotten it for him before
they settled down with their own food. It takes effort and attention to
parent.
On the other hand, we don't have to be perfect and I don't want this to
sound like I have been perfect. I have many times not done something
for my kids that I could have done, just because I was a little tired
or doing something myself and didn't feel like it. I wish I could start
fresh - and do better. But it hasn't ruined my relationship with my
children or ruined their lives or anything like that. So the trick
seems to be to keep striving to do better and better and to give myself
a break when I am, inevitably, not perfect.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
hadn't planned ahead perfectly, had gotten comfy and then realized he'd
forgotten his drink. That's not a "bad habit" - that's just being a
human. ANY of us could do the same thing. I've I'd settled into a comfy
position with my food and then realized I'd forgotten to bring my
drink, I'd look up to see if anybody was in a good position to hand it
to me.
We have a situation at our house that is new - in the late evenings
there are usually several of us sitting together in the living room,
with our laptops, playing a game, or watching something on tv.
Recently, our dog has been wanting to go in and out the back door way
more often than she ever has before - I don't know what the problem is,
she goes out and wanders around and then wants back in and then out and
then in.... Anyway - we don't have a doggy door because we've never
needed one, but now we're having to get up and down all the time. We
are all getting a little tired of it and I hope she'll just stop doing
it, soon. But I noticed something nice. We seem to just kind of
naturally share the chore of getting up - kind of taking turns in an
unspoken rotation. If the kids are busy and I'm just reading email, I
usually do it - so I probably do it more than they do. But it is WAY
harder for me to get up and down off the floor if we're sitting down
there playing a game and they don't even expect me to do it at all, in
that case. Nice of them. Thoughtful without even probably giving it
more than a moment's thought. These are 13, 16, and 19 year old kids.
A little while ago, my husband settled down in his chair to watch a
soccer game on tv that he is very excited by (his favorite English
team, Arsenal, will break a 100+ year record if they win this game). As
soon as he settled in and got the game on and it started, he said, "Oh
darn, I forgot to make my tea." (He'd boiled the water but forgot to
make it and bring it with him to sit down.) Roxana, 16, was sitting on
the couch nearby, with her laptop. She jumped up and said, "I'll get
it." She did that. Now 20 minutes later, he just wanted another cup of
tea. He looked around and saw Roxana and I both typing away on our
laptops and he didn't even ask, he just jumped up and went and got it
himself.
It is hard work and tiring to have young children. You DO have to watch
out for them and help them a lot. A parent could have kept an eye on
him getting his food and reminded him that he'd forgotten his drink or
noticed when he settled down without it and gotten it for him before
they settled down with their own food. It takes effort and attention to
parent.
On the other hand, we don't have to be perfect and I don't want this to
sound like I have been perfect. I have many times not done something
for my kids that I could have done, just because I was a little tired
or doing something myself and didn't feel like it. I wish I could start
fresh - and do better. But it hasn't ruined my relationship with my
children or ruined their lives or anything like that. So the trick
seems to be to keep striving to do better and better and to give myself
a break when I am, inevitably, not perfect.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/15/04 3:58:38 PM, arcarpenter@... writes:
<< What if you still stick up for yourself but don't start with the "n"
word? >>
There's a danger when parents consider saying no to their children (no matter
how it's phrased) as sticking up for themselves.
Any "us and them" thinking erodes the togetherness.
-=-"I will in an hour -- right now I'm _______. Would you like to
watch?" (Or, "I need to be alone while I do it, but let's set the
timer so you know when we'll play.")-=-
Arbitrary, to my way of thinking, unless you want to watch a TV show or
something that really lasts an hour.
I do agree with all this, -=-
That's how I begin, and then I do watch how the interaction goes.
If it seems more important to the child that I do what they want
than it seems to me to do what I want, I do it. If I really am just
too tired and getting grumpy, I let my son know that in a nice
way: -=-
and I agree with your general premise, I'm just picking at the details for
the benefit of people who are trying to come up with their own gameplans.
Your children being on your team, they won't mind you taking a rest sometimes
(especially if you're really generous with them and their needs, which you
really seem to be!)
Sandra
<< What if you still stick up for yourself but don't start with the "n"
word? >>
There's a danger when parents consider saying no to their children (no matter
how it's phrased) as sticking up for themselves.
Any "us and them" thinking erodes the togetherness.
-=-"I will in an hour -- right now I'm _______. Would you like to
watch?" (Or, "I need to be alone while I do it, but let's set the
timer so you know when we'll play.")-=-
Arbitrary, to my way of thinking, unless you want to watch a TV show or
something that really lasts an hour.
I do agree with all this, -=-
That's how I begin, and then I do watch how the interaction goes.
If it seems more important to the child that I do what they want
than it seems to me to do what I want, I do it. If I really am just
too tired and getting grumpy, I let my son know that in a nice
way: -=-
and I agree with your general premise, I'm just picking at the details for
the benefit of people who are trying to come up with their own gameplans.
Your children being on your team, they won't mind you taking a rest sometimes
(especially if you're really generous with them and their needs, which you
really seem to be!)
Sandra
Mark and Julie
<< My dh remembers constantly being ordered to fetch stuff (including
cocktails) for his parents, regardless of his current activity. >>
For the last five years or so our morning ritual (especially in the winter)
has been for me to make the kids hot milos while they are all snuggling on
the couch watching their shows. A couple of months ago Jacob (my 7 yr old)
asked me to show him how to make them and also how to make tea and coffee.
Now if I look tired or I offer to make Mark a coffee he always jumps in and
asks if he can make me a cup of tea and get his dad's coffee. The nicest
thing about this is the big smile on his face when he brings it to you.
Julie
cocktails) for his parents, regardless of his current activity. >>
For the last five years or so our morning ritual (especially in the winter)
has been for me to make the kids hot milos while they are all snuggling on
the couch watching their shows. A couple of months ago Jacob (my 7 yr old)
asked me to show him how to make them and also how to make tea and coffee.
Now if I look tired or I offer to make Mark a coffee he always jumps in and
asks if he can make me a cup of tea and get his dad's coffee. The nicest
thing about this is the big smile on his face when he brings it to you.
Julie
Alison Broadbent
This too is something I struggle with. My ds is 4, I try to figure out
where my limits are and speak of them. Not to get to NO for no good reason
which is what I see all around me.. We do so much and are out so much so
that when it there comes a time where I need something for myself I try to
honor that. Sometimes I'm too too tired to go out at 10 pm to get some
candy that he wants. We'll discuss the options like creating something else
or eating what we've got in the house. I've noticed a trend these days that
he's accepting of my limits more. In the afternoon sometimes I need to lie
down for about a 1/2 hr. I crash. It used to be a 5 sec lying down w/ a
pull on me to do something, then going back to lie down for and the whole
thing was like that for the 1/2 hr. Then lying next to him while he watched
tv worked a bit better.
I think if we never brought up our needs our kids wouldn't get a chance to
see us as whole human beings all interacting in this creation that is our
family.
I think letting him know that I do have limits is a good thing and that I
take care of myself also a good thing. I try to let him know when I'm
heading towards burnout and why. I also think hanging out with him while he
goes through the disappointment of my not doing what he's wanting is
helpful. Not being resentful and instead being understanding of his
disappointments helps move us along.
It's something I think a lot about. I don't have boundless energy and
sometimes feel guilty that I don't but that's what we got to deal with so
I've got to find more creative ways to engage when I'm in that down time.
I'd love to hear how others deal w/ this.
Alison
where my limits are and speak of them. Not to get to NO for no good reason
which is what I see all around me.. We do so much and are out so much so
that when it there comes a time where I need something for myself I try to
honor that. Sometimes I'm too too tired to go out at 10 pm to get some
candy that he wants. We'll discuss the options like creating something else
or eating what we've got in the house. I've noticed a trend these days that
he's accepting of my limits more. In the afternoon sometimes I need to lie
down for about a 1/2 hr. I crash. It used to be a 5 sec lying down w/ a
pull on me to do something, then going back to lie down for and the whole
thing was like that for the 1/2 hr. Then lying next to him while he watched
tv worked a bit better.
I think if we never brought up our needs our kids wouldn't get a chance to
see us as whole human beings all interacting in this creation that is our
family.
I think letting him know that I do have limits is a good thing and that I
take care of myself also a good thing. I try to let him know when I'm
heading towards burnout and why. I also think hanging out with him while he
goes through the disappointment of my not doing what he's wanting is
helpful. Not being resentful and instead being understanding of his
disappointments helps move us along.
It's something I think a lot about. I don't have boundless energy and
sometimes feel guilty that I don't but that's what we got to deal with so
I've got to find more creative ways to engage when I'm in that down time.
I'd love to hear how others deal w/ this.
Alison
J. Stauffer
<<<< Shouldn't I always meet their needs first
I think there is a big difference between needs and wants. Needs get taken
care of, period. Whether those needs are my kids, mine, dh's, whatever. I
make sure they get taken care of.
With wants there is more give an take.
Some people believe that what your child wants should come before your wants
no matter what. I don't.
Some people believe that what adults want should come before the wants of a
child no matter what. I don't.
I think the members of our family are living our lives together, sharing the
journey, give and take.
Julie S.
> and THEN meet my needs if there's ever any time left over? >>>>I may get razzed over this but I'll tell you my take on it.
I think there is a big difference between needs and wants. Needs get taken
care of, period. Whether those needs are my kids, mine, dh's, whatever. I
make sure they get taken care of.
With wants there is more give an take.
Some people believe that what your child wants should come before your wants
no matter what. I don't.
Some people believe that what adults want should come before the wants of a
child no matter what. I don't.
I think the members of our family are living our lives together, sharing the
journey, give and take.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 12:29 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: "a taste of his own medicine" andother
cruel ideas
> "it is almost like giving an unschooling recipe:
> Like Step 1. Make as many different breakfasts as the people in your
> house
> want.
> Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook."
> Step 3. Say.....<whatever>.
> It seems legalistic. Just as unschooling looks different in every
> home but
> follows the same basic guidelines of trust and acceptance, gentle
> parenting
> looks different as well but follows the same basic guidelines of love
> and
> respect being a 2 way street."
>
> This is the hardest thing for me about unschooling. Knowing when or
> if ever I can say no. Knowing where the line is between my personal
> boundaries and making sure my kids are emotionally whole and feel
> loved.
>
> And still wondering if I'll ever grasp how to master finding time for
> my own interests and work. Just a few weeks ago someone (Julie?)
> said she has five kids and still does all this amazing (to me) amount
> of work with them around. I'm in awe, because I don't.
>
> An example...
> Today one of Alisha's friends was having a yard sale, so we went and
> visited their sale. Then we went to a few other yard sales and found
> some neat stuff.
>
> Luke had to go to the bathroom on the way home, so we stopped at a
> grocery store (closest bathroom). When we walked past the salad bar,
> he wanted some things off of it, so I let him fill up a container.
>
> The boys hadn't wanted to go to yard sales, so I convinced them by
> telling them we could stop and get milkshakes afterwards, so we
> stopped for milkshakes.
>
> At one of the sales Alisha and I found some new yugioh cards, so
> Alisha asked me to play yugioh with her when we got home. She set
> the cards up while I hung a load of laundry outside. I took a break
> at one point to make english muffins, pour drinks, and go see
> something that the boys had made outside.
>
> After playing several games, Alisha and I looked up some stuff about
> yugioh online. Then I started making supper, but dh had to finish
> that because Matt shut the door on his toe and needed my attention.
> I bandaided him up and it still hurt and he needed me to sit and hold
> him for awhile.
>
> After supper I looked something up online for Matt. He really liked
> something that he bought at the yardsale and wanted to know if he
> could buy something similar somewhere. Then Alisha asked me to play
> yugioh some more. I asked if she could clear the table while I got
> the laundry in off the line, and she did. We played 2 more games and
> then spent awhile looking through all the cards not in our decks and
> deciding what we could part with. She wants to have a yard sale now
> too, and wants to sell her extra yugioh cards there. As we were
> looking through the cards, something sparked a question she'd
> wondered about from seeing it on her video game. She asked what
> pyro, hydro, aero, and geo meant. I knew what they meant and told
> her, but looked up geo in the dictionary to make sure I was right.
>
> I made a 5 minute phone call to discuss with a friend plans for some
> clubs Alisha wants to get involved in.
>
> I took a shower and then lay, read, and sang with Alisha and then
> Matt on their beds before they went to sleep. (Luke went to bed with
> dh).
>
> I came down, ran the dishwasher, did a load of dishes by hand. Now
> I'm up too late finding time for myself online. I'll probably throw
> in a load of laundry before bed so it's ready to get hung up in the
> morning, and I'd like to read some of my book but will probably fall
> asleep after 1 or 2 pages.
>
> I'm NOT complaining about being home with and spending lots of time
> with my kids. Really! I just wonder if there's something I'm
> not "getting". I've been reading about moms getting lots of work
> done even with 5 kids in the house and how moms should pursue
> interests on their own. When I do really need to get work done or
> pursue an interest for myself it usually involves telling a kid no.
> I might have time in a few hours, or maybe tomorrow, but not now.
> Then they're sad and I feel bad. Last week I went out for lunch with
> a friend and Alisha, who's almost 11, begged me not to go. She would
> miss me too much. Her dad was home with her, and they get along
> great. Yet some of you go to work...don't your kids ask you not to
> ever leave them? The only work I got done today was 2 loads of
> laundry and food prep. I did the dishes after everyone else was
> asleep. Is that bad? Should I be able to get more done when my kids
> are around? They ask me to do stuff with them constantly. Not that
> they don't ever do stuff on their own, but usually what happens is
> that while one child is off doing something on his own, a different
> child wants my attention. Usually I'm doing something with someone.
> Is there something wrong that my kids want so much of me?
>
> I'm very concerned about doing it all "right". I want my kids to be
> emotionally whole and healthy and feeling very loved by their mom.
>
> Back to the "I'm not a short order cook" theme... IS there ever a
> time when you can say, "No, I'm tired, I can't get that right now?"
>
> Example...All day long I got Luke everything he wanted to eat and
> drink. No problem. For supper, I made hamburgers which I knew he
> wouldn't want, so I made hot dogs too. Dh cut the hot dog up for
> him, I got him ketchup on his plate, got him a fork. Poured him a
> drink. He wanted to take his plate to the couch (a few feet from the
> table to watch tv), so he did. Dh and I sat down to eat, kind of
> tired, and as soon as I did, Luke said, "Bring me my drink, Mommy".
> He had carried his plate in, sat down and got comfortable, and
> realized he had forgotten his drink. I was tired. I said, "Honey,
> I'm really tired. Why don't you come get your drink." He said no.
> Dh said, "Well, it's right here whenever you want it." He asked in a
> whiny voice several more times and I was about to get up and get it
> for him but then he finally did come out and get it himself.
>
> In situations like that it's hard for me to know if I should just
> always breathe and put a smile on my face and get up and serve, no
> matter how tired I am, or can I sometimes say, "I'm tired honey, why
> don't you get it". And if he still says no, you get it, do I then do
> it no matter what? I can't imagine getting lots of work or pursuing
> interesting things on my own without sometimes saying, "No, I'm tired
> or busy, you'll have to get it this time". or "No, we just played
> for 3 hours and now I need an hour to myself". But does doing that
> make them feel unloved? Shouldn't I always meet their needs first
> and THEN meet my needs if there's ever any time left over?
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<<There are some phrases which don't exist in ANY conversations except
those
which had absolutely nothing to do with chirldren. It wasn't used in a
hurtful way but in a rather playful, laughing way to get a point across
between adults.
I am sorry people have been so injured by the words of others that they
begin to see the words themselves as bad rather than the intent of the
person who spoke them.
Julie S.
those
> which put down children, which treat them as second-class humans to bescoffed
> at and abused.>>>>>Perhaps this is the problem. I HAVE heard this phrase is conversations
which had absolutely nothing to do with chirldren. It wasn't used in a
hurtful way but in a rather playful, laughing way to get a point across
between adults.
I am sorry people have been so injured by the words of others that they
begin to see the words themselves as bad rather than the intent of the
person who spoke them.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "a taste of his own medicine" andother
cruel ideas
>
> In a message dated 5/14/04 10:04:35 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
>
> << I think when we tell people specific things to do and specific things
to
>
> say, or not to do or not to say....when we talk about specific words and
>
> actions....it is almost like giving an unschooling recipe:
>
>
> Like Step 1. Make as many different breakfasts as the people in your house
>
> want.
>
>
> Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook." >>
>
> I don't agree with step 1. I think it comes under
>
> "Be thoughtful and aware of your children as individuals."
>
> "Decide what your priorities are. Children over house? Learning over
> schedule?"
>
> "Be mindful, not kneejerk. Don't try to use old methods for new
purposes."
>
> I just made those up now. <g> But they're the kinds of PRINCIPLES (not
> rules) that are discussed all the time in unschooling discussions.
>
> -=-Step 2. Don't say "I'm not a short-order cook."
>
>
> Step 3. Say.....<whatever>.
>
>
> It seems legalistic. -=-
>
> Really? I'm repeating myself like a little telephone tape and somehow
what
> I'm saying isn't coming through. Can someone else help me say it? Pam
and
> Joyce tried, I think.
>
> There are some phrases which don't exist in ANY conversations except those
> which put down children, which treat them as second-class humans to be
scoffed
> at and abused. One of those phrases is "I'm not a short-order cook."
There
> are several other phrases like that. If a parent is using those phrases,
it is
> indicative that the parent is working from super-ego voices, not from her
own
> voice. She is having throw-back to other people and situations and
attitudes,
> not dealing directly with her own child in that moment.
>
> A person who is quoting parents or grandparents for purposes of thwarting
a
> child is not living in the unschooling moment.
>
> -=-I agree that throwing a cliche out may not be the best approach to
>
> parenting. It probably is worth examining. But just because it is a
>
> cliche, perhaps even one that people have used as a put down doesn't
>
> automatically make it taboo.-=-
>
> Okay. There it is.
>
> Why should a parent not try to rid their mind and soul of put-down
cliches?
> Why should a parent not be willing to encourage other unschoolers to
cleanse
> themselves of anti-child rhetoric?
>
> -=- Perhaps we will just disagree on this one.-=-
>
> Some of the hundreds of people who will read this before the weekend is
out,
> though, might decide what they believe on the basis of persuasive
argument, so
> it's still worth discussing.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/16/04 12:56:08 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< Perhaps this is the problem. I HAVE heard this phrase is conversations
which had absolutely nothing to do with chirldren. It wasn't used in a
hurtful way but in a rather playful, laughing way to get a point across
between adults.
conversation (and more than once, you said 'conversations') when it wasn't to
or about children? What point were the adults trying to get across to one
another?
I have never, ever heard or read that phrase when it wasn't intended to tell
someone that you were not going to do what they unreasonably wanted, because
you had some status they didn't have. Please, if I'm wrong show me. If I'm
right, say uncle and stop defending it.
Sandra
<< Perhaps this is the problem. I HAVE heard this phrase is conversations
which had absolutely nothing to do with chirldren. It wasn't used in a
hurtful way but in a rather playful, laughing way to get a point across
between adults.
>>Can you give me an example of when "I'm not short-order cook" came up in a
conversation (and more than once, you said 'conversations') when it wasn't to
or about children? What point were the adults trying to get across to one
another?
I have never, ever heard or read that phrase when it wasn't intended to tell
someone that you were not going to do what they unreasonably wanted, because
you had some status they didn't have. Please, if I'm wrong show me. If I'm
right, say uncle and stop defending it.
Sandra